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Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18
7

Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

(OP)

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Thanks SFCharlie...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Quote (IanCA (Mechanical))

apologies for jumping to conclusions

Not needed. I should have called it an artistic rendering instead of a drawing. It's an insult to drawings. Like an overly fancy ppt. No Charlie, I'm not talking about you!

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

The new Ring Camera video/audio is clearly from an xx5 view of the hallway, and it is the hallway that collapsed. So this clearly shows that the audio of the collapse is laid over a freeze frame of the Ring Camera video (post-production manipulation). Otherwise the video would have shown the collapse happening. Supposedly the actual (full) Ring Camera video does show the full video that accompanies the audio track. Yet another card being withheld.



RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Thanks for stating the obvious [not sarcastic]. I knew there was something wrong with that presentation but I couldn't put my finger on it. We live in a depraved world when sensationalism displaces news.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

It explains the missing motion that triggered the camera. Otherwise it had me wondering whether this was a continuously recording ring. AFAIK Ring mentioned that was a feature that would be available some time ago (for a fee). I was not aware they never came out with it.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Quote (sgw1009)

The new Ring Camera video/audio is clearly from an xx5 view of the hallway, and it is the hallway that collapsed.
Looks like you agree with me.

Quote (Nukeman948 2 Jul 22 16:22)

It was located at the doorway to an x05 unit looking straight down the hallway of the part that collapsed.

The frozen frame is a possibility, however we know that the building was making plenty of noises prior to the actual collapse. I believe the audio is of the sounds that the building was making before the actual collapse and not the collapse itself. It seems to me that the actual collapse would be much louder and have a brief pause before the eastern part fell.

Here are some points to keep in mind.
1) The ring video from 711 is much longer and shows the building crumbling and twisting in the moments before the collapse, but is without audio. This audio would fit over that video nicely.
2) Ileana Monteagudo in 611 saw a crack developing through her living room wall and still had time to escape. While she didn't report any sounds associated with the cracking, I'm sure it was making sounds like in this recording too.
3) Ring cameras require motion a certain distance from the camera to activate them and will continue to record for some time after all motion stops. Is it possible for the video to freeze while the audio continues to record? Isn't it also possible that the motion that triggered it stopped and it still recorded for a few more seconds?

I already admitted that the video was edited but this audio is still valid information of the sounds before the actual collapse.

Quote (Nukeman948 2 Jul 22 11:18)

"It is a shame that they superimposed the building collapse video over this video for dramatic effect, but there is no evidence that the audio has been altered."



RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Listening to the audio track that accompanied the "new" Ring camera video freeze frame, it sounds to me as though the collapse is in its early stages, and begins to accelerate as the clip progresses, like a snowball rolling down a hill and getting larger and larger, but then the audio fades out, just as the sounds of the collapse avalanche is building. This clip is in mp3 format - not sure the link will work as it is not a image, just a file.

https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/video/upload/v1657045056/tips/CTS_Collapse_Audio_sgz1zq.mp3

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Quote (Nukeman948)

Ileana Monteagudo in 611 saw a crack developing through her living room wall and still had time to escape. While she didn't report any sounds associated with the cracking, I'm sure it was making sounds like in this recording too.

I’m not sure that’s true. Ms. Monteagudo recently stated that the hallway was silent when she left her apartment. She previously stated that she could hear the car alarms when she stood at her sliding door, and that the she heard and saw the wall crack in the living room.

Remember too that the late Cassie Stratton was awakened in 410 by the building shaking, and after she got on the phone with her husband she told him it had started shaking again just as it collapsed.

I have always theorized, based on the witness statements, that three stages occurred after the deck collapsed, e.g.
  1. The building first rumbled and swayed as it transferred loads, as per Gabe Nir in 111, which woke up Cassie Stratton and Ileana Monteagudo.
  2. Then it somewhat caught its equilibrium for several minutes, as the Nirs and Vazquezes evacuated from the lobby, Ms. Stratton called her husband, and Ms. Monteagudo saw the crack form and got out of 611.
  3. Finally, as it lost its equilibrium, it rumbled and swayed just before it collapsed as per Cassie Stratton and the original Ring video in 711.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Quote (MaudSTL)

I’m not sure that’s true.

Thank you, I corrected my post. My point was that there were settling sounds and motion for a period of time before the collapse long enough for her to escape. I was responding to sgw1009's comment: "Otherwise the video would have shown the collapse happening."
The silent hallway as she left implies that it was not one continuous collapse but was settling in stages as it failed, also confirmed by Cassie Stratton's phone call. That means that the new video could have been either the first or second settling event.

The news media in general has damaged their own reputation enough without people making up stories about them manipulating or withholding information without evidence. If they had video of the collapse happening they would have shown it. That would have generated much more revenue for them than just giving the audio portion for "sensationalism".


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

In response to Nukeman948, I am not saying that it was necessarily the media that contrived the manipulation for nefarious purposes. Perhaps they were supplied only the freeze frame with the audio overlaid, or perhaps they were supplied with two separate files. Having retired from 50 years in the media business, I know what can be done, and what is frequently done, to "get it on the air." What you see if often not unaltered. Call it poetic license. Your point about if they had video of the collapse happening they would have shown it is a valid point. And in today's day and age, they will air just about anything. "We want to warn you that the video we are about to show is graphic." And then they air it. The fact that they only aired what they did tells me that that is all that they had, and again, they may have had to "make it work" by putting the audio over the freeze frame. It is also possible that the video is not a freeze frame, but just a video shot that does not change (in any noticeable way). Regardless, this Ring camera was in a position to see the entire hallway in front of it collapse, and short of a power interruption or some other terminating phenomenon, it is reasonable to expect that this Ring camera did in fact capture the entire collapse (as best it could). It is highly likely that NIST has the entire clip, but only released the first portion of it.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Unlimited conspiracies with a dearth of evidence.


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

(OP)

Quote (The Hollywood Reporter)

The Miami Herald is partnering with 101 Studios and Grain Media on a documentary that will investigate the deadly 2021 collapse of Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida. — Surviving Surfside will interrogate the failure of the 12-story building in the early morning of June 24, 2021 that left 98 people dead and is still under official investigation, the companies announced on Tuesday.

Quote (archinect.com/news)

The Herald's in-depth breaking news coverage of the disastrous Champlain Towers South collapse one year ago recently won the paper a Pulitzer Prize and will be a primary source of information for the upcoming Surviving Surfside documentary.
Surviving Surfside: Documentary about Miami condo collapse announced

SF Charlie
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RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Well shoot. This is going to be the conversion of the multipart podcast, along with what I think of as their erroneous timeline, into a documentary. They are sure milking it! After the documentary I am guessing we will get the first feature film, with Jessica Chastain as the late Cassie Stratton, Meryl Streep as Ileana Monteagudo, Rami Malik as Gabe Nir, and Zoe Kravitz as Shamoka Furman. The Vazquezes will play themselves.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

3
The failure of this structure is nothing more than having unqualified persons in charge of a midrise construction, nothing more and nothing less. You do not have to be a PE, GC or a AIA member to see that this structure was in trouble for years. I don't think the owners should have gotten a dime, the Consulting Engineers and the Building Dept are to blame

Supervised alarm systems are not designed for a building collapse, it just is not part of NFPC, NEC, or any other code that I have ever remotely attempt to address. In relation to the security guard that was hired, it was the licensed property manager's responsibility to ensure that any $11/hr worker on the nightshift when they were off site to make sure that they were familiar with the relevant building systems.

The idea that a property management company, or a board of directors are even remotely qualified to judge structural issue on mid-rise is ludicrous. There needs to be new category of license for AIA, PE, and GC's, and perhaps a specialty inspectors license in terms of actual field experience with multiple construction systems to qualify for a licensure test. It was a tragedy, and I blame the people that should have known better to act.

Please before you commit, we all know that are alot of rent-a-stamp firms out there, both Architectural and the Engineering disciplines, as well as contractors that need proper supervision. Condo Board are generally filled with people that would rate themselves as professional level knowledge on every issue presented to them, they did their research. The Property managers sole qualification is a weekend course on sections 718 or 720 of the Florida Statutes, which does not mention anything AIA Forms, or Building Codes, or even partial lien releases, and combined these individuals are charged with managing complicated projects from $1 Million to $30 Million or more.

Unless you have a million sqaure feet of actual documented supervisory field experience in the construction of these structures and have managed these projects at least at the project manager level you have no business being anywhere these buildings.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Fire alarm systems are used for other emergencies now and the damn thing didn’t even sound and had some other fault. So yes, they are definitely liable for a part of this tragedy.

The building could have collapsed without killing as many people if all of the engineers, safety systems, etc were doing their job. Your post is a bunch of nonsense and sounds very “blame the victim”.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

I agree with Keith. The uninitiated have no business making essentially life and death decisions in complex structures of which this is one, even investment grade decisions of same. I believe any developer would have seen this structure for only its redevelopment value (which was a lot) but would otherwise promptly shut it down.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

WOW!

https://youtu.be/FMAsOO58Gko

Champlain Towers South building collapse alarm and security issues

Folks, you need to watch this video that just came out a few days ago! See 3 screenshots I made below from this webinar

This is a Webinar with a lawyer interviewing Matt Haiman from Premiere Alarm Systems Elrado Ellis, who Installed the fire alarm system at Champlain Towers, and why the alarm never sounded. Has lots of clear photos, and they go through the log clearing things up.

Most damaging info was that he repeatedly emailed Scott, the property manager of CTS to pull the CPU before they imploded the surviving part of the condo, as it was intact and in the security desk area in the lobby. Scott replied back 3 days later that they never pulled the CPU.

Maud you may want to update the timeline spreadsheet to show that the fire log here actually shows the 911 call from central alarm services being placed to 305-595-1201 (Miami Dade Police 911) at 1:16:27 which is the same time as the lobby phone call that you have indicated on the spreadsheet.

He mentions Champlain Towers turned down the automated capability of the fire alarm sounding the speakers in the bedrooms for evacuation because it was too expensive. CTS had their system set up for human intervention to hit the all-call button, but we know the security guard Shimoka was not trained on i. He said Miami Herald blamed alarm company but he showed the alarm was functioning and did everything it was supposed to. His testimony was so good in the deposition, that it was used against Securitas to get the $500 million settlement which is why Securitas paid out the max on the insurance policies.

He gives a lot of great info here, and his feelings after being deposed for the settlement, and some speculation. But I am working on a video today to discuss this, and some of Matt's implications. Show photos all over inside, some of which we had never seen before.

<br>
<BR>

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Matt Haiman from the alarm company sounds like a real "standup guy" though, when The MH called him. It's a very odd, immature, and overly defensive statement instead of answering the question. Only juvenile minds argue back "fake news" instead of proving something.

Quote (Miami Herald)

Hallandale Beach-based Premier Fire Alarms and Integration Systems installed the system in 2017.

In a brief phone conversation Friday and subsequent text messages, Matthew Haiman, Premier’s president, said that the company’s system had worked properly and threatened to sue the Herald if it published a story.

“We have the records,” Haiman said, although he said he would not show them to reporters.

“Go f--- yourself,” he added. “Print your fake news.”


The company has been issued a notice of subpoena in a class-action lawsuit on behalf of survivors, victims and their relatives, according to court records.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

An interesting point brought up in the video as well, is that the elevators we know were recalled. Matt explained only smoke alarms in front of the elevators would trigger that, but there wasn't believed to be smoke. Matt consistently mentioned their system performing "flawlessly" but he doesn't actually have that proof. Could the system have actually failed in other ways? It seems they dodged the voice alarm notifications for the parking garage and lobby area as well. I don't believe we heard it on the call did we?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

But if you look at what The Miami Herald said about Matt, they're trying to make it look like he was the only company sued they said he was the subject and subpoena of a lawsuit. While every single contractor that ever touched that property including Bob's Backhoe who just delivered a backhoe, all got subpoenaed so Miami Herald was trying to make it look like he was singularity a guilty company. The Miami Herald had written a story about the alarm company saying their alarm company failed. That's why he was so upset with The Miami Herald. In fact, you're going to see in a future video that I'm working on The USA Today pissed off a lot of people with the fire department as well blaming them for faulty equipment that wasn't really faulty. When the press doesn't get want they want out of you, they vilify you and try to make you guilty of something.

Also near the end of the video during the Q and A sessions, Matt mentioned that the voice alarms probably did likely go off and the garage and on the 1st level which is the lobby, which would be why none of the residents heard it because there is no alarm in that building it's all voice and speaker is what he said.

Unlike the hotel next door, which had that loud standard fire alarm with a standard buzzer. that kept going off as we saw on the police bodycam videos released in August, 2021

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Quote:

Also near the end of the video during the Q and a sessions Matt had mentioned that the alarms probably did likely go off and the garage and on the 1st level which is the lobby, which would be why none of the residents heard it because there is no alarm in that building it's all voice and speaker is what he said. Unlike the hotel next door they had that loud standard fire alarm is a standard fire lawn buzzer sound going on

Weren’t there people coming up the elevators in the garage at the time when they were recalled? Did they mention an alarm?

As far as the MH and Matt - I wasn’t saying he didn’t have a right to be angry but it doesn’t seem like he offered to explain or even defend anything and instead just argued and I tend to want to immediately dismiss people who use the Orange Man’s “fake news” tagline for things they don’t like.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18


Well, the main theme of that video seems to be that fire alarm systems do not activate on seismic activity.
Matt stated that he believed that a crushed conduit may be responsible for the initial trouble and alarm notifications to the central alarm monitoring company. Perhaps the elevator smoke detector wiring was in that conduit. Since each floor would have had a separate circuit to feed it's speakers, it is likely that the circuit for the garage and first floor speakers could have also been in that same damaged conduit.

Hey Maud, since contact ID was not provided to the central station, and he doesn't think the CPU was saved, it can not be confirmed what devices were activated including which pull stations, if any. That means that the news media may have jumped the gun on pull station reporting. (I won't say "fake news" here but...) Hopefully NIST investigators saved the CPU before the implosion.

Hey Jeff, he did say that this system was set up to give "three tones" before the voice evacuation message was played. Speakers can mimic any type of horn alarm sounds as well as issue voice commands. Separate horns are not required.
Just a side note: every speaker alarm system I have installed was tested by playing Pink Floyd while we verified the function and decibel rating of all the speakers.


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Most Elevators in this type of building just had a battery with a relay that would return them to the lobby in case of
the loss of power.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Have you folks seen this photo before? It is the view from under the cabana tent on the pool deck of Champlain Towers South, taken around March 2020, facing the now famous planter that developed the serious cracks just weeks before the condo collapse.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

I don't recall seeing it. Do you have a full crop of the lower portion or should we admire the stripes?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Is the pipe along the planter some type of mist cooling system?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

No I believe that pipe was draining directly from the planter and down into the garage where it goes into some other main water collection point

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Have you noticed anything out of place in the photo? Where did you come across it?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

The photo came from a March 2020 report on the HOA reserves. The pipe running along the front of the planter is definitely out of place to me. This says that maybe the as-designed drainage pipe underneath on the garage ceiling was not doing its job so they rigged this ad hoc drainage pipe to run along the front of the planter to bypass the old drain. That is my hunch.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

finally finished my video on this fire alarm issue, worked on it for 5 days! I must say the webinar put on by that lawyer opened up more questions

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Thanks for calling out the Timeline corrections to me. As for hearing alarm announcements in the lobby, has anyone read a witness stating they heard announcements? I haven’t read anything myself, and we don’t hear them during the 911 calls…

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

I have not seen a single report. My understanding from the video with Matt is that there was no voice activation because CTS chose not to pay extra to have it automatic.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

No, I don’t mean an automated all-call announcement, which they did not have,

I understood that the system was designed to have an automated announcement on the floor where the fire alarm was triggered and also on the floor above. So if the fire alarm was triggered in the garage, you would expect to hear an announcement in the garage and on the first floor. None of the witnesses said that they heard this announcement in the lobby or in 111.

In the contractor video, the alarm contractor accuses Security Guard Shamoka Furman of shutting down the announcements while Sara Nir was telling her what to say and how to say it as she called 911. It is hard to imagine how someone in shock who has not been trained on the system could have accomplished this before her first 911 call. This alarm guy and Josh Porter both like to punch down.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

My understanding from the video with Matt is that there was no voice activation because CTS chose not to pay extra to have it automatic.

Listen to Matt on that video again. When the FACP detects a fire it was programed to give three tones and a pre-recorded voice message to evacuate for the floor that may be on fire as well as the floor above and below it.
This was an addressable system which means that each initiating device like a smoke detector or pull station is assigned a number.
When an initiating device activates, the FACP programing adds a description to the number it receives like "lobby pull station west" or "AHU 3 smoke" and displays that information on the screen at the annunciator panel at the security desk. At the same time it activates the signaling devices and alerts the central station that there is a fire in the building. The only part that was an extra cost option was that the description of what device was activated was not sent to the central station. That means that the firemen had to go to the annunciator panel to see where the fire may be, instead of getting that information from the central station.
Signaling devices like horns/speakers and strobes are divided into zones or in this case floors. As Matt said, they would give three tones and a voice notification to evacuate for up to three floors for any zone that has a fire detected.

Any emergency that required the evacuation of the whole building would need someone to use the "all call" function and give a voice message with the microphone. That was the part that was not automatic.


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Nukeman64, yes that is the subtlety that Miami Herald did not understand, and you still have to hear Matt say it a few times to sink in. what a terrible combination of cracks to fall through on this one.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Paying the extra money for the device ID to be sent to the central station is often considered a waste of funds because when the fire commander arrives on scene they would immediately position themselves in front of the annunciator panel to asses the situation and monitor the spread of the fire. They would then radio commands to the firefighters from there.
Instead of pocketing that saved money, they should have spent it on proper employee training on how to use the system more effectively.
The biggest crack I see in the system is the failure to provide that training, but educated employees can demand higher wages and that cuts into profits.


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Quote (Nukeman948)

Any emergency that required the evacuation of the whole building would need someone to use the "all call" function and give a voice message with the microphone. That was the part that was not automatic.

If the all-call did not have a recorded announcement, then I am not sure what one of the survivors from the west part of the building heard after the collapse. Maybe it was a fire alarm announcement triggered after the fact? I will try to find the exact quote.

>>>>>Edit: Here’s the verbiage I was recalling. It is from the Miami Herald ‘Lives would have been saved’: Fire alarm didn’t go off before Surfside tower collapse of Jan. 21, 2022.

“Albert and Janette Aguero rushed down 11 flights of stairs after the crash. They didn’t hear a single alarm, not in their unit or any other part of the tower. “It never went off,” Aguero said.”

“Two residents told the Herald they did hear an alarm — but only after the tower had already fallen at 1:22 a.m, which would likely have triggered the system again. “We heard [an] explosion that shook our apartment,” said Alfredo Lopez, who lived on the sixth floor. “The light went out and I heard the alarm go on. There was a siren from the [emergency] speaker in our unit. I believe it said, ‘Please evacuate immediately.’ “ Lopez said he didn’t remember hearing any other alarms in the rest of the building as he and his family fled to safety down an emergency stairwell.

Daniela Silva was falling asleep when the pool deck collapsed, waking her up. She said she heard no alarms at that time. It was not until around 1:30 a.m., she said, several minutes after the tower fell, that the emergency speaker in her unit went off and, following its instructions, she escaped. “It was very loud. A lady’s voice,” she said. “It absolutely would have woken me up [if it had gone off before].”

Police body-camera footage from several minutes after the tower collapsed appears to show a strobing light going off in the lobby and another in the garage. Albert Aguero said that flashing lights on fire alarms and exit signs helped him and his family navigate their way out of the building after the collapse. But the devices never produced sounds, he said.”

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Quote (MaudSTL)

If the all-call did not have a recorded announcement, then I am not sure what one of the survivors from the west part of the building heard after the collapse.

That announcement could have been made by a firefighter at the annunciator panel.

Normally, tones and a pre-recorded message will repeat until it is acknowledged/silenced from the panel while the strobes continue to flash until the system is reset. The system can not be reset if any device is still in an activated state. If the panel receives an activation from another initiating device, the message starts again for all zones with an activated device. So someone on the 8th floor could have used a pull station or a smoke detector may have triggered from dust to start the message they heard.

With most systems, to use the "all call" function you need to push a button to turn on the audio amplifier in the panel and then there is a series of buttons, one for all floors/zones at once (all call) and individual buttons to activate each floor/zone individually as needed. Then you may need to push the button on the microphone to talk.


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

Without the detailed system log from the fire alarm CPU, we will never know what actually happened. The Central Alarm log, which is shown without the entries prior to the 1:15:29 Trouble code, sheds no light on why some survivors heard alarms and announcements after the building collapsed at 1:22.

Here’s the Central Alarm log image from the alarm contractor’s presentation. I would like to see the entries prior to 1:15:29.



RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18

I want to know if someone was ever held accountable to grab the CPU. That is ridiculous it was ignored for a day or two when it should have been easy to grab. Hopefully NIST or someone did actually grab it, but it seems likely security stuff wasn't grabbed either. Those are the kind of things that make people shout coverup and corruption. Just blatant incompetence.

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