One thing no one has mentioned is that when a contractor last year took those core samples, it appears they cored right through rebar. I always thought this was a no-no. In fact, Surfside sent out guidelines to building owners stating to use GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) first before taking core samples, to avoid hitting rebar. It is no strange coincidence to me that the core sample which penetrated the rebar was taken just inches to the left of column M11.1, right next to the planter box. You have seen me point out in several of my videos since June about how they left that core site open with Bob's barricade there, and in some other MLS photos, seems like no covering was ever put back on the 3' x 3' exploration site. these core sites are required to be filled back in and returned to the state they were in before the sampling, pretty much the same day if possible.

Basement Floor (lowest level below-grade)
o Perform GPR (ground penetrating radar) to determine slab thickness and to locate
reinforcing steel, if reinforced (conventional slab on ground or reinforced slab on
ground).
o, Take one set of three concrete cores (after GPR to avoid reinforcing steel) for
compressive strength testing per AC! standards and one core for petrographic
examination per ICRI standards. Repair cored holes in accordance with ICRI industry
standards.
o GPR column for vertical reinforcing steel and lateral ties (measuring spacing) for the full
height of that lift. Verify vertical column reinforcing splices,
o Take one VA" diameter maximum 3"-depth core In column (after GPR to avoid
reinforcing steel) for compressive strength testing per ACI standards and petrographic
examination per ICRI standards. Immediately repair cored holes in accordance with ICRI
industry standards.

Re theories and mechanisms lost to the voluminous scroll:

Quote (MaudSTL)

built us a spreadsheet to capture views succinctly in one place, but not many people have availed themselves. She may have locked it now but you can request access within the document by pulling down the view only button at the top. For Charlie not to spend the rest of his life relaunching this thread I suggest we re-engage with this, if Maud has not given up and gone fishing long ago.
Link

Edited to add

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Rebar damaged by cores

Case in point, that topic has come up a few times, but you'd have to dig back now to see it.

Its not unusual for a core sample to break apart when drilling it. Especially if you were to hit rebar on the way through it. The broken core samples tend to break right at the rebar.

Quote (Its not unusual for a core sample to break apart when drilling it)

This has not been my experience... generally cores with rebar come out intact, and generally not fractured at the location of the rebar. If they do break at the rebar, the halves have neat surfaces. It may have been that due to corrosion issues and the expansion of the corrosion products that the concrete was compromised at the junction.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Per the Miami Herald Editorial Board, Florida needs state-wide condo inspection and reserve fund regs to help prevent another CTS. We don’t know what caused Surfside collapse, but we know something else that’s gone wrong | Editorial

In that environment, 40 years is too long... more like every 10 years. The engineer also has to note if there is anything that requires immediate or very near future repairs and this has to be on file with the municipality.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Surfside sent out guidelines to building owners stating to use GPR

The requirements you're citing were in the "Properties East of Collins Avenue Structural Assessment Recommendations Letter" dated July 7, 2021, advised by Kilsheimer in the wake of the CTS collapse. I don't know what Surfside's requirements for core samples are/were in the period before June 24, has anyone been able to find that? Something tells me that common procedure was not so exhaustive, at least in practice...and even if that was the protocol, I highly doubt it was ever enforced. It obviously wasn't here, as clearly shown in the engineer's own documentation.

From the document "20201014bodminutesapproved", per Morabito's memo dated October 13, 2020 (Re: Champlain Towers South Condominium – Phase IIA, Summary of Work Performed) "At completion of the investigative work CPR restored each exploratory (and core) location back to its original condition." The attached and marked up plan sheet S2A-1.1 is more detailed in the scope for each core sample site, GPR wasn't mentioned. I'm not sure if that's what the memo refers to when it says "The
results of exploratory demolition and the additional core work are summarized in the attached “CTS Test Probe
Notes” file" or if that's a document that hasn't been released? I don't recall having seen it but that doesn't mean much.

The rest of the notes from S2A-1.1...I can't extract the individual sheet at the moment, I can do so later on today for anyone who doesn't want to go on a pdf scavenger hunt.

Quote (AusG)

…built us a spreadsheet to capture views succinctly in one place, but not many people have availed themselves.

Thanks, AusG. I was about to bring this up again myself. We have a self-serve repository that few have used. If more would use it, it would act as a summary of the lengthy discussions on these many pages. Anyone can view the spreadsheet. And anyone can use the entry form to add to it. The only thing anyone needs me for is to sort it, as I am the only person with edit privileges.

This Google Form Engineering Input Form automagically writes to the CTS Collapse spreadsheet!

Procedure

1. Complete and submit the Engineering Input Form
Screen Name
Type
Sub-type (free form text entry)
Theory/Hypothesis <short description>
Proven Evidence
Possible Evidence Not Yet Proven
Argument Against
Notes/Links

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1N2dEQi7aJwsxngfyY...

Tip: Check the spreadsheet to see if your Theory is already listed. If it is, use the same Type, Sub-Type, and Theory/Hypothesis so that sorting will place your entry by the previous listing. There is no limit on how many listings a particular theory may have.

2. Review the CTS Collapse spreadsheet to see your entry/entries and everyone else’s entries.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11LJTDM2VJ5...

We will use the Type/Sub-type fields as organizers. This will allow us to sort the spreadsheet so that related items will appear next to each other. This will be more efficient than human intervention to organize separate tabs, although we could also do that after we end submissions.

Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)7 Sep 21 05:47)

One thing no one has mentioned is that when a contractor last year took those core samples, it appears they cored right through rebar. I always thought this was a no-no.

... was hashed out long ago here. That's why we post post links to the previous parts of this thread at the top of every part!

SF Charlie
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Quote (AutisticBez (Computer)7 Sep 21 07:33)

Its not unusual for a core sample to break apart when drilling it. Especially if you were to hit rebar on the way through it. The broken core samples tend to break right at the rebar.

Dik has already spoken to this. It's the quality of the break that tells the story. This is not a new break caused by drilling, it's an old break (potentially caused by rebar expanding, due to salt water intrusion.) and since it appears to have happened at most of the cores, it leads to the suspicion that a lot of the structural pool slab delaminated.

SF Charlie
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The green thing in the Tiktok pic looks like the patio chair and green cushion from unit 111.

In the case of that one core that I had brought up that was next to the planter, that likely has very little to do with salt water intrusion in fact probably close to zero. If that is on the pool deck there's no soil under it there's no way for saltwater to get to it, it's strictly from rainfall and water pooling on the pool deck over the years. I would also really love to know where it was that they originally made repairs in 1996, that morabito found in 2018 that could really give us a clue as to where there was some weak and concrete that would be much more weaker than other areas around it. Because in 1996 they were claiming they had to fix almost 500 square feet of cracks which is amazing after only 15 years of life.

Cores taken from around or under planters would be repair work they show, and very minimal original concrete.

Perhaps it's not delamination, but just lack of adhesion of repair layers.

*shrugs*

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (demented)

Cores taken from around or under planters would be repair work they show and very minimal original concrete.

That is likely untrue. Because from what we can gather they did not remove any of the concrete from the pool deck, there were cracks all over the place, that in 1996 they repaired the concrete using epoxy injections. This apparently was done by somebody that did not know what they were doing, and they actually left several of the injection ports into the ceiling and never sanded them down and primed and painted or anything to help seal it up afterward. And so these often left to even more cracks developing. but we have not seen any evidence anywhere that suggests that they removed any of the original pool deck concrete and replaced it. Do you have any information on that? Are there any permits that were pulled or any drawings that show the work that they were supposedly doing on that?

Yes, drawings, permits, engineers notes, inspections, inspection notes, BOM's, ect.

It's been gone over in threads past. It was a fuckerclust of pumped and bagged concrete in the 9" slump range, repair mortar, and epoxy/foam injection. Rebar inspection and replacement too.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (arbitraria (Civil/Environmental)7 Sep 21 14:10)

"Properties East of Collins Avenue Structural Assessment Recommendations Letter" dated July 7, 2021
From the document "20201014bodminutesapproved", per Morabito's memo dated October 13, 2020 (Re: Champlain Towers South Condominium – Phase IIA, Summary of Work Performed)

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)(OP)7 Sep 21 04:56)

I could not find:
"Minutes of BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING held Wednesday, October 14th, 2020 at 7:00 PM"
in the City of Surfside Archive, but NPR had a link to the .pdf

in a memo sent to the condo board in October 2020

My trick for getting a single page of a pdf is to print the page with the printer set to: "Microsoft print to pdf"
Please find attached:
Minutes of BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING held Wed October 14th, 2020 at 7-00 PM sheets 43,44 of 83.pdf

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=90808878-cdf3-4253-a566-6

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

In the case of that one core that I had brought up that was next to the planter, that likely has very little to do with salt water intrusion in fact probably close to zero.

Aren’t any exterior surfaces where water pools or accumulates in coastal environments subject to salt water intrusion? It would seem to me that the air there is somewhat laden with salt (sea spray) and anywhere it does not runoff from, it will be concentrated with every wetting and drying cycle.

Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)7 Sep 21 15:58)

In the case of that one core that I had brought up that was next to the planter, that likely has very little to do with salt water intrusion in fact probably close to zero. If that is on the pool deck there's no soil under it there's no way for saltwater to get to it, it's strictly from rainfall and water pooling on the pool deck over the years.

Jeff, It's a block from the beach. You know, I know, everybody knows, salt air plus rain equal salt rain. You can Taste it in the air. It corrodes aircraft at Miami International, a lot farther inland than this...
The ocean runs in the streets...
Nop, no flooding here:
Thursday Night's Rain Caused Street Flooding On Miami Beach
...ever heard of storm surge?

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

My Theory:
The pool deck delaminated. The concrete corroded to the point that it got so weak that it could no longer hold onto the columns. It was not traditional punching-shear*. There was no, let me call it a "top hat", of slab on top of the column.
Enough of the pool deck structural slab failed that it's "catenary action" (pull) rotated the slab drop under the south face of the north wing. (1979 plans 31 of 336)
The slab drop failed from "M" to at least "K" or "I" so that it was possible for the entire center of the south face to fall intact.
This tilted the floors and roof, which in turn though "catenary action" pulled the rest of the north wing down on top of itself.

*punching-shear-punching-shear-flat-slabs

Quote (CivilDigital.com – The Civil Engineering Website)

What is Punching Shear? Punching Shear in Flat Slabs
July 17, 2014 by Anand Paul
What is Punching Shear?
Punching shear is a type of failure of reinforced concrete slabs subjected to high localized forces. In flat slab structures this occurs at column support points. The failure is due to shear. This type of failure is catastrophic because no visible signs are shown prior to failure. Punching shear failure disasters have occurred several times in this past decade. An example of punching shear failure can be see in image.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

The Trigger:
The Trigger is building a condo on the beach next to the Atlantic Ocean.
Not because of the sand, but because the Atlantic Ocean is full of water so bitter that when I got some of it in my mouth, I threw up; because the Atlantic Ocean is so huge and soaks up the Sun's energy, and creates hurricanes that suck up salt water into the sky where the salt has no place to go, but to come back down as the bitter rain.

Trigger #2:
Trigger number 2 is that some of us humans are unwilling to spend money to keep us humans safe;
Unwilling to spend the money to build it safe, unwilling to spend the money to keep it safe.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

My former condo 7 miles inland has all sorts of rebar rusting and spalling and it is nowhere near the coast. So while salt intrusion might be present I think the far bigger threat is the freshwater rains of any water type that soak into the concrete. Any pool deck that is over a garage and not built on the ground is not seeing salt water intrusion from the water table, because it is elevated off the foundation below it. Plain and simple this pool deck had water pooling for some time, we even saw numerous MLS photos I have shown where water was sitting there on sunny days with nowhere to go. Everyone wants to keep blaming it solely on the ocean, but think of it as only a contributing factor. Note these photos below showing standing water or stains, and pooling water on concrete is worse than anything else because concrete is a sponge to water.


.

.

Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)7 Sep 21 18:06)

My former condo 7 miles inland has all sorts of rebar rusting and spalling and it is nowhere near the coast. So while salt intrusion might be present I think the far bigger threat is the freshwater rains of any water type that soak into the concrete.

I'm not saying that Florida rain doesn't rot concrete. It does!
I'm just saying that hurricanes carry salt way inland. I know condos are your business. Concrete in Florida and I don't know where else is going to rot if it is not waterproofed, and I think that's what you're saying also?

Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)7 Sep 21 18:06)

pooling water on concrete is worse than anything else because concrete is a sponge to water.

Yes! Drainage around any structure anywhere is of primary importance. ... and checking the slope of anything exposed to the weather also, decks, walks, patios...

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

Charlie - notice the size of the remaining slab atop the column - particularly relative to the column ? It appears the Piper's Row Car Park slab had drop panels at the columns.
Note that image having what looks like a 4 foot square section of slab remaining and compare that to any of the columns at CTS pool deck area after the slab dropped.
There was likely the delamination and rusty reinforcing as you suggest, and ( I suspect ) VERY weak concrete likely due to the effects of chloride damage to the slab.
I await compression test results of core samples and a chemical analysis to show the chloride content. I am not sure the concrete I have seen in the pics can be effectively analysed using petrographic examination.
Thanks,

Theres a number of parking parkades here in Calgary showing seriously exposed badly corroded rebar. Calgary is 1000 kilometres from the ocean. I dont think anyone has suggested salt in the air is the cause. Might want to revaluate how critical / relevant this salty discussion is.v

Piper's Row Car Park did not have drop [panels, they had the typical punching shear perimeter at each column, which Champlain for example had 16 #5 rebars in a line across each column if I remember correctly. Piper's Row Car Park used a lift slab method and anchored to the column with wedges.

Regarding saltiness of the water - yes, the sea will spray in that far sometimes, but rain isn't generally salty, even on the coast.

But do you guys use salt over there in winter to keep snow and ice off exposed surfaces? Because if you do, that would result in saltwater being put into exposed slabs like a pool deck for sure.

Quote (miningman (Mining))

Do they never use salt on the streets in the winter?

Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical))

So it was not the concrete thickness that defined the quite regular rectangular failure perimeter. Too much reinforcing terminated at one location?
Thanks,

Quote (Vance Wiley (Structural)7 Sep 21 18:41)

I am not sure the concrete I have seen in the pics can be effectively analyzed using petrographic examination.

Yep! You're right

SF Charlie
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Quote (Red Corona (Computer)7 Sep 21 19:14)

But do you guys use salt over there in winter

In Florida? ...not sure they know what that is. (Winter is what they call it when the snowbirds arrive from Canada
I was driving home from Huntsville Alabama and it snowed. They were (resourcefully) spreading gravel on the roads...

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Winter is what we call those 2 weeks of 50*F before it's hot again. Other than beach sand, there's no salt on our streets.

@Jeff Ostroff
What makes that standing water situation worse is the fact that the drains on the deck were known to be inop damn near all the time, especially when the building next door was being built. Water pooling for days on the deck, especially in shades areas closest to the building, was a constant resident complaint.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

I mean, I wouldn't call a broken core sample a reason to evac the building. I would call it further investigation. Like maybe perform further inspection to see the full extent?

To me, a failing pool deck might be the trigger, but it shouldn't have pulled the building down. Thats a design flaw. The pool deck should be designed to shear away from building. The beams at edge of building acted to prevent the isolated collapse of pool deck which might have taken no lifes, had it just sheared off.

This to me reminds me of my failing outdoor patio roof. Its a semi water proof covering. The wooden structure is rotten and failing. Its future collapse wouldn't be a problem except for the strong connections to the roof of the house.

Landlord says they will remove structure after it fails, but if part of the roof comes away, the property itself might be condemned due to old age.

Quote (AutisticBez (Computer)7 Sep 21 23:45)

To me, a failing pool deck might be the trigger, but it shouldn't have pulled the building down.

Yes.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

A main reason for the slab failure and then the building was months of vibrations from the new Condo being built next door. Basically continuous seismic loads microscopically cause loss on rebar bond strength.
If someone here can do the calc on the patio detaching from the step beam that may solve part of the puzzle.
The step beam was damaged by the ripping apart of the BM A planter supports.
Along with an elevation change at the step beam which took 12" depth away. All this is enough.

Catenary Action
To me, a Catenary is a curve, but I first heard it applied to the overhead power wire used on the Pennsylvania Railroad. The support wire hangs in, yes, a Catenary.
To the best of my knowledge, the curve was discovered by an architect and a scientist trying to build the world's largest dome. They found that if they piled rocks in the shape of a Catenary, the thrust of the weight of the rocks was down through the legs of the Catenary. The biggest example I know of is the Saint Louis Arch.
With chain the pull/thrust is in the opposite direction. Pulling sideways on the ends of the chain pulls the center up. Imagine a chain of chunks of concrete sand and pavers strung on rebar. The chain pulls sideways on whatever it is anchored in. In this case that's the bottom of the south slab drop (step beam) of the north wing. The pull on the bottom tends to rotate the drop (step beam).
Another potentially counter action is that if beams anchored to the drop (step beam) at the north end and a column at their south end, lose the support of the column, they twist the drop (step beam) in the opposite rotation. Twisting concrete is a great way to break it.

SF Charlie
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Quote (ChiefInspectorJ)

A main reason for the slab failure and then the building was months of vibrations from the new Condo being built next door. Basically continuous seismic loads microscopically cause loss on rebar bond strength.

I guess that explains why they have never successfully built buildings close together in New York City.

The unusual pencil-sharpening of the columns is to me a critical feature. Poor concrete, poor rebar placement or something else. It stands out and has to get a mention in any logical assessment of the collapse.

Re the core drilling. Morabitos specs for core drilling stated (somewhere) that structural reinforcing should be avoided. This below was posted by Lizard7709 back in thread 4 but the exact source was not stated

Quote (AusG (Petroleum)8 Sep 21 01:51)

Re the core drilling. Morabitos specs for core drilling stated (somewhere) that structural reinforcing should avoided.

This is from:
8777-collins-avenue---preliminary-review-plans-for-40-year-re-certification.pdf (sheet 2)
Which can be downloaded from the City of Surfside Champlain Towers Public Records & Media Information
Use the Sherlock Homes looking glass to search for "40 year" for example.

SF Charlie
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"...requesting approval prior to cutting any bars."


Bars appear to have been cut. Was there approval?

I ask not because I think it contributed to the fall, but because I would really like to hear about someone involved who did a Really Good Job. I like people who do Really Good Jobs. Warms my little heart, it does.


spsalso

Quote (spsalso)

It says "Shall" on the Plan ... shall means shall, no?

"Hilti Ferroscan, GPR, x-ray, chipping or other means" - selective demolition being "other means"?

Quote (spsalso)

"...requesting approval prior to cutting any bars."


Bars appear to have been cut. Was there approval?

I ask not because I think it contributed to the fall, but because I would really like to hear about someone involved who did a Really Good Job. I like people who do Really Good Jobs. Warms my little heart, it does.


spsalso

Assuming the GPR was run with an engineer on site as is claimed, I think we have a job done well here. More gooder if you prefer.

More holes were to be drilled after these first odd ones. A series of them on nearly all sides of the pool, extending south from core A and east from core B. But those never were done because of the situation where the board required the pool to remain open and in use at all times during season and more samples were going to be taken when the alternate parking was established in the back lot and side of the building on the access road.


Edit:
Probably late on these. Just noticed Surfside dropped more records at the end of August.
https://surfside.one/public-records-search/
Mostly just more interior demolition, marble tile, and hurricane windows/doors.

Quote (Demented (Industrial)8 Sep 21 10:09)

Just noticed Surfside dropped more records at the end of August.

Thanks for the update from reality, and thanks for the update on the archive!

SF Charlie
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Has anyone else who's looked at the permits noticed the handwriting similarities between one engineering firm that did a lot of restoration work and the town permit reviewer?
I do not want to go down that hole but I'm sure someone will. Not that it even matters. Just more conflicts if true that'd still be keeping this a crime scene and the Town out.
I'm gunna shut up now.
It's been bugging me since this morning and please someone squash that thought.

Quote (Demented (Industrial)8 Sep 21 16:23)

Has anyone else who's looked at the permits noticed the handwriting similarities between one engineering firm that did a lot of restoration work and the town permit reviewer?

Is it possible the firm just phoned it in, and the reviewer signed for the engineer? (should have initialed it) Still probably not legal (not binding in court), But if he did the work and then said "Yep, I'm sure I did a good job.” then I'm sure there is some wittier quote than “blind to one’s own mistakes”.
(not enough coffee yet this morning)

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=317545
I think we are dealing with deflection and shear in the failed beams not cantenary actions.
If the BM A detached from the step beam we could be dealing with shear and maybe a moment applied to the drop beam even though the max M would be at the support still functioning. But even so the drop beams was too small especially behind the planter and was sheared off in some manner.
The smallest step beam I found could have been 12" x 13.5" near column O.
As someone questioned the buildings close together in NYC. That is a Gneiss bedrock a little more solid that a liquefaction situation at CTS. This soil was vibrated continuously for a long period of time according to the residents.
To avoid lawsuits tying up the sale I would suspect this will be suppressed.
We know the mayor is insane saying this collapse was an act of god.
All bets are off.

Quote (ChiefInspectorJ)

That is a Gneiss bedrock a little more solid that a liquidfaction situation at CTS.

Please feel free to post some solid evidence of that happening here.
Perhaps a research paper describing "continuous seismic loads microscopically cause loss on rebar bond strength" caused by nearby construction or pile driving causing building collapse by liquefaction.

Sounds more like liquidfiction...

> The unusual pencil-sharpening of the columns is to me a critical feature.

It's certainly atypical for a puncture shear - normally the slab shears and leaves a piece of itself behind, but here it almost looks like it was the column that failed first. And the slab's rebar should have run through the column and made that clean failure impossible, too.

Quote (Red Corona (Computer)8 Sep 21 17:47)

it almost looks like it was the column that failed first

Well, the columns, in most cases, are still standing, but if one looks at the fracture of the top of the column, it almost looks like a cold joint. It is not, if one zooms in, one see the barest hint of white aggregate. The planar failure reminds me of the core samples. The failure stretches from rebar to rebar. Spalding?

SF Charlie
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Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

Quote (if one zooms in, one see the barest hint of white aggregate)

Charlie - I think you are onto something. Most punching shear failures leave concrete from the slab on top of the columns. The pics of the UK parking structure show that. Four way flat slabs have tension on the bottom face, and therefore probably cracks, over most of their area, due to the positive moments. And they have tension on the top face at the columns, due to the negative moments there. The probable tension zones are reinforced to address/resist the moments, and that means placing reinforcing near the top of the slab over columns.
Compressive stresses in concrete can assist in resisting the entry of water (but not make it impermeable). Tension cracks welcome water.
While the slab over the top of the columns was the high point (unless drainage slopes prevented this) the overlay materials and the low slopes to drain could have created cases where the slabs over the columns were saturated also. The cracking there would have allowed that moisture into the slab and caused the concrete to deteriorate. If that deterioration led to the loss of strength in the concrete the negative moment strength would be reduced.
Now imagine, if you will, the reinforcing passing over the top of the column, and being pulled downward by the anchorage in the slab - and finally reaching the point of being an anchorage to the catenary tension in the reinforcing. The bars pass over the columns and the corners of the column must support the load in bearing - and maybe fail from that unintended force.
So the corners become "rounded", if you will, and demonstrate the effects of spalling..
Just speculation, but maybe it will provide some mental image of a possibility. We can see the results, this is what I think is one possible reason.
Can't wait to see results of concrete strengths from many locations in this (that) structure.
Thanks,

Quote (Demented)

Has anyone else who's looked at the permits noticed the handwriting similarities between one engineering firm that did a lot of restoration work and the town permit reviewer?

From the New York Times, August 25, 2021:

"Records show that the Surfside building department delegated inspections of the towers back to the Champlain Towers builders, who tapped their own engineer to sign off on construction work."


spsalso

Quote (Vance Wiley)

The bars pass over the columns and the corners of the column must support the load in bearing - and maybe fail from that unintended force.
So the corners become "rounded", if you will, and demonstrate the effects of spalling..

I am perhaps misreading this, but it sounds like the corners were "rounded" by the bars passing them as the slab descended.

If this were the case, there should have been those bars still connecting each "side" of the slab. They would now be found surrounding the bottom of the columns.


spsalso

Quote (spsalso)

From the New York Times, August 25, 2021:

"Records show that the Surfside building department delegated inspections of the towers back to the Champlain Towers builders, who tapped their own engineer to sign off on construction work."


spsalso

Unrelated to the original builders, unless an original team of engineers is what disbanded.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

/

Quote (Nukeman948 (Electrical) 8 Sep 21 17:45 Quote (ChiefInspectorJ) Please feel free to post some solid evidence of that happening here. Perhaps a research paper describing "continuous seismic loads microscopically cause loss on rebar bond strength" caused by nearby construction or pile driving causing building collapse by liquefaction. Sounds more like liquidfiction...)

https://www.prosperlaw.com/what-caused-champlain-t...
https://www.foundationprosfl.com/best-soil-types-f...
You see this is the problem in Florida with people like Electrical Engineers ( not you Jeff) doing Structural Engineering. As a Building official I have referred many of theses cases to the board.

Quote (spsalso (Electrical))

Quote (If this were the case, there should have been those bars still connecting each "side" of the slab. They would now be found surrounding the bottom of the columns.)

The should have been somewhere and that will show whether this was what happened or not. Wonder which pile they are in?

Quote (ChiefInspectorJ)

1. Those links are infomercials and PR by lawyers, and a communications grad at a geotech company
2. if anything liquefied from pile driving at the next door site, why would it not show up first at the next door site? At CTS the floor pan and column roots are intact. The question stands: what liquified, where and why?
3. The subsurface at CTS is I believe lime sand. This can dissolve and make caverns but has grain-on-grain framework so it doesn't liquefy. You need to show us a liquefiable layer exists and then some evidence that something actually liquefied.

Quote (ChiefInspectorJ)

https://www.prosperlaw.com/what-caused-champlain-t...
https://www.foundationprosfl.com/best-soil-types-f...
You see this is the problem in Florida with people like Electrical Engineers ( not you Jeff) doing Structural Engineering. As a Building official I have referred many of theses cases to the board.

An opinion piece from a lawyer, and a foundation company describing soil types in Florida are not the solid evidence that supports your claims.

I have never pretended to do structural engineering. I have not presented any claims as to what caused the collapse of CTS. But you, the Internet's Chief Inspector J made a claim that you don't seem to be able to back up with any real evidence or facts.
We have been over the the theory of vibrations from exploding ordnance, jets taking off from MIA, construction next door, and even tar kettles and found all these theories totally lacking in being able to explain all of the events on the timeline or to be of sufficient magnitude to cause this collapse. And most of the discussions were shut down by actual Structural Engineers on this site. You could spend some time reading up on the first 12 pages.

Quote (Vance Wiley)

This one has both rounded column and dropped slab preserved, at least until they collapsed the remaining part of the building. That visible lower loop of rebar may be a culprit for ripping out the side of the column, but who knows?

Quote (Vance Wiley)

Can't wait to see results of concrete strengths from many locations in this (that) structure.

We know so far that there are aggregates missing in some of the core pictures and the NIST photos of the columns.

The guys who drilled the columns to demolish the western part of the building said the drill went through it way too easily.

Moribito was getting some "curious results" but won't say what.

It's safe to say at least some of the concrete in the building was well below spec. It's just a matter of how much of it and how bad that needs to be determined. It certainly will clear a lot up if it turns out bad enough to be a major contributing factor.

Quote (AusG (Petroleum)9 Sep 21 01:20)

This one has both rounded column and dropped slab preserved

I like your photo choice. It is late enough at night that I confused dropped slab with slab drop, sorry
Please use your favorite drawing tool to circle or outline the items mentioned above, so we all know we are talking about the same thing.
Thanks

Quote (SFCharlie)

and I had a nice PPT all ready to go...

Quote (Reverse_Bias)

Aggregate

I too believe the concrete will prove to be sub spec, but I believe aggregate is there, but made of pale grey soft local limestone: so almost no colour or mechanical contrast to the concrete. I may be naïve but I find it difficult to see a concrete company turning up with a sand slurry and not one responsible individual caring.

Quote (Nukeman948 (Electrical) 9 Sep 21 01:02)

An opinion piece from a lawyer, and a foundation company describing soil types in Florida are not the solid evidence that supports your claims.

That lawyer seems to be presenting themselves as an expert in geotechnical engineering and offering theories which imply some degree of certainty, with no citations to actual experts in the field.

"Absent an act of terrorism, the most likely cause of the building’s collapse was either a construction defect or a foundation failure likely caused by soil liquefaction."

They've skipped over more prominent theories put forth by experts so far, i.e. design defects and structural degradation over time.

Maybe it doesn't rise to a level of professional misconduct, but nobody should view this as a legitimate source.

Quote (AusG (Petroleum)9 Sep 21 03:08)

Quote (SFCharlie)
and I had a nice PPT all ready to go...

Go for it! I'll race ya'
I already loaded that photo into PPT and now I'm trying to blowup the cap of each column.
I'm so tired, I'm pretty sure I won't finish tonight.

SF Charlie
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Quote (CE3527)

That lawyer seems to be presenting themselves as an expert in geotechnical engineering and offering theories which imply some degree of certainty, with no citations to actual experts in the field.

Unscrupulous people often post current news items to get more people to visit their site. The more traffic they get equals more name recognition for these lawyers which pays off as more business over time.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/m...

In Contractor for fallen Surfside condo later lost license amid fraud, negligence claims, the Miami Herald goes after one of the three contractors who built CTS. The first one quit when the penthouse was added, the second one (whose poor business practices are detailed in this piece) lasted only three months, and the last one finished up the job. All three are deceased.

Building Audits After Surfside Collapse Uncover Unsafe Structures, Violations When our building falls down, we want the government to have protected us and will blame it for having failed to do that. When our building has not fallen down, we want the government to stay out of our business, and drag out repairs for years and years.

The Miami Herald article sure is interesting.

Reading between the lines, the last two contractors were window dressing for a non-contractor to run the job. That is my opinion. It certainly doesn't appear they were hired based on their record in the field.

NOT reading between the lines, I see that the permit fee was $13,121 (about $43,000 in today's money).

As I've mentioned before, since the Surfside part-time building inspector wasn't up to the task, that money could have been used to hire an outside inspector. I kinda think it SHOULD have. And I kinda wonder why it wasn't done.



spsalso

Quote (Spsalso)

…since the Surfside part-time building inspector wasn't up to the task, that money could have been used to hire an outside inspector. I kinda think it SHOULD have. And I kinda wonder why it wasn't done.

To serve the greater good, the Miami Herald is helping to build the criminal negligence case against the Town of Surfside. The smaller the entity to take the fall, the more the Florida real estate market is protected. The Miami Herald has already done pieces on the Bad Developer, the Bad Architect, the Bad Engineer, the Bad Building Inspector, and now the Bad Contractor. It is becoming more clear that only one entity could have protected public safety, and that’s the Town of Surfside. I think that next they’re going to go hard against Ross Prieto and the town management.

Re liquefaction or other ground issues: There were some reasonable hypotheses in this area, but as the critical columns in the pool deck collapse appear to be intact, and the basement slab looked in good condition after the clearance, I think we can take any foundation-based theory off the table.

Re the concrete being apparently sub spec or degraded: why, then, is nobody scared about CTN? It was built pretty much at the same time by the same people, so if the worry is the structural elements of the building, you'd expect that to be true there, too (and in fact in every 1970s/80s reinforced concrete structure in the area ...).

> If this were the case, there should have been those bars still connecting each "side" of the slab. They would now be found surrounding the bottom of the columns.

All the pool deck columns, and the ones under the surface parking like @AusG's photo, had their slab around the base. I'm sure NIST had a good look at those bits of slab before clearing the site.

Quote (Red Corona (Computer))

Re the concrete being apparently sub spec or degraded: why, then, is nobody scared about CTN? It was built pretty much at the same time by the same people, so if the worry is the structural elements of the building, you'd expect that to be true there, too (and in fact in every 1970s/80s reinforced concrete structure in the area ...).

Maybe people should be worried.

Beyond that, why was this particular building the one that failed? Did the crane accident during construction cause hidden damage and/or budget and time delay issues that resulted in more corners being cut? Were things learned in the construction of this building that were applied to subsequent buildings with regard to column size, etc? Did some event (construction next door, revisions to units, etc) push this building over the edge? Was maintenance just that shoddy?

Quote (ACI)

ACI friends and colleagues,

Today, I am writing you to share the disappointing news that the ACI Concrete Convention planned for October 17-21 will transition from a hybrid event to a fully virtual one. With the rise in COVID-19 cases, it has become increasingly clear that a fully virtual ACI Concrete Convention will be safest for ACI members, attendees, and staff.

Just a few short months ago, we were excited at the opportunity to see each other again in Atlanta, GA – I know that I was, and I’m sure that you were, too. But rest assured that we are channeling that collective excitement into making the ACI Concrete Convention the most productive and best virtual event it can be. The ACI staff is now working with the ACI Georgia Chapter, convention sponsors, session speakers, and committee leaders to transition the event. While all details are not yet finalized, know that ACI will still be hosting committee meetings, informative technical/educational sessions, social activities, sponsor demos, celebrations, and the other activities that make our conventions special – albeit in a fully virtual format.

If you’ve already registered and/or reserved your hotel room, ACI will confirm if any action is needed and be in contact soon. ACI suggests that you cancel your travel plans. If you haven’t yet registered, now is the perfect time to register for the virtual ACI Concrete Convention (and take this opportunity to invite a friend or colleague to join you, too).

Thomas Concrete, Baker Concrete Construction, ConSeal, and 50+ additional companies and organizations have signed on as sponsors – I sincerely encourage you to view all sponsors, thank them, and support them as you are able.

Questions can be directed to conventions@concrete.org. Additional details will be posted to the ACI website when finalized, and we’ll be back in contact soon.

Sincerely,
Cary Kopczynski, PE, SE, FACI, FPTI
ACI President

SF Charlie
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I just uploaded my video this evening where I drove over to Champlain Towers North who has the same garage, next door to the collapse site last week, and recreated the tourist video in the daytime and even got cars coming out of the garage and the gate opening up so we could see all of the columns very well lit and back to the back wall to show like wherre the debris field was in the tourist video, which was shot 5 minutes before the condo collapsed. Here is a screenshot I made showing the columns:
.
.
.
.

Jeff M11.1 is rotated 90 degrees in north building. This column is 12 by 16. At south the wider 16 inches would be facing the ramp. In north the 12 is facing the ramp.

Technically this would require a much higher speed of vehicle impact to bottom shear the north M11.1 column. All the 11.1 columns are rotated in the north building.

Did they learn something in the process of building south?

Easier to park if you rotate the columns?


spsalso

There must have been other reasons to rotate those columns, you only gain 4", not a big difference in parking

Jeff,

Tell that to the folks who write the regulations on size of parking spaces. Depending on where you are, you can be off by an inch and fail.

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Which failed first?

Well it can't be "22" at CTN, (which is "27" at CTS), because it was still standing in the tik tok video.

Surfside mayor gives tenants 45 days to leave his building in Miami Beach

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/09/10/surf...

Quote (Red Corona)

Re liquefaction or other ground issues: There were some reasonable hypotheses in this area, but as the critical columns in the pool deck collapse appear to be intact, and the basement slab looked in good condition after the clearance, I think we can take any foundation-based theory off the table.

Re the concrete being apparently sub spec or degraded: why, then, is nobody scared about CTN? It was built pretty much at the same time by the same people, so if the worry is the structural elements of the building, you'd expect that to be true there, too (and in fact in every 1970s/80s reinforced concrete structure in the area ...).

> If this were the case, there should have been those bars still connecting each "side" of the slab. They would now be found surrounding the bottom of the columns.

All the pool deck columns, and the ones under the surface parking like @AusG's photo, had their slab around the base. I'm sure NIST had a good look at those bits of slab before clearing the site.

The foundation was leaking and causing corrosion at the base of some of the columns. K and L where the standing water was had a lot of corrosion at the base.

As far as uneven subsidence, liquification or a sinkhole, those can probably be ruled out. I've seen no evidence of it and it is also not consistent with a collapse starting at the deck, it probably would have started on the more heavily loaded columns under the building if this were the case.

Well, the slow boat from ACI arrived in the mail. It came well protected in a cushioned paper mailer and a flexible Blu-ray style box. The thumb drive itself is compact and folds, pocketknife style, into a sturdy steel key ring cover, perfect for taking to the job site.
It took a call to support. John promptly sent me a zip file of the latest .pdf files and now everything works fine. Please find an extract of a few pages attached. edit Images Only

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=076f3f9f-9a99-41a7-8d34-f

The corrosion was likely caused by inadequate concrete strength coupled with inadequate concrete cover to the reinforcing. Even the later patch repair details didn't reflect good corrosion resistance.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Quote (DVARELA@MIAMIHERALD.COM)

Fixing Florida’s aging condo mess after the Surfside collapse means changing the laws | Opinion

David B. Haber specializes in condominium law and represents condominium associations. His other practice areas include construction, complex business litigation and real estate law.

The archived version. A condo lawyer proposes legislation to allow forced sales in order to facilitate condo terminations. The author doesn’t include a proposal that facilitates relocation of fixed income elders. Fixing Florida’s aging condo mess after the Surfside collapse means changing the laws | Opinion

Here in the SF bay area, relocation often includes some allowance for relocation expenses paid buy the landlord.

Quote (California)

California Now Requires Relocation Assistance Payment to Tenants for Allowable No-Fault Evictions.

Although the new law essentially prohibits a California residential landlord from terminating a tenancy without just cause, as set forth above, there are some exceptions.

A Landlord may initiate a no-fault termination of tenancy with the payment of Relocation Assistance for any one of the following reasons:

The Owner seeks to owner-occupy the residential property, or have their spouse, domestic partner, children, grandchildren, parents or grandparents occupy the premises, but for leases entered into on or after July 1, 2020, owner occupancy shall only be allowed IF either: (a) the tenant agrees, in writing, to the termination, or (b) a provision in the lease allows the owner to terminate the lease if the owner, or their spouse, domestic partner, children, grandchildren, parents, or grandparents, unilaterally decides to occupy the Premises;
The Owner seeks to withdrawal of the residential property from the rental market;
The Owner is complying with any of the following: (a) a government order to comply that necessitates the tenant vacate the premises; (b) a government or court order; or (c) a local ordinance; OR
The Owner is seeking to demolish or substantially remodel the rental property (Note: substantial remodel is defined to mean upgrading structural, electrical, plumbing, or mechanical system that requires a permit from a governmental agency, or the abatement of hazardous materials, including lead-based paint, mold, or asbestos, in accordance with applicable federal, state, and local laws, that cannot be reasonably accomplished in a safe manner with the tenant in place and that requires the tenant to vacate the residential real property for at least 30 days. Cosmetic improvements alone, including painting, decorating, and minor repairs, or other work that can be performed safely without having the residential real property vacated, do not qualify as substantial rehabilitation.
The amount of relocation assistance, or rent waiver, required is one month's rent as in effect when the owner issued the notice to terminate the tenancy and must be paid to the Tenant within 15 calendar days of service of the Notice Terminating the Tenancy.

Some local jurisdiction demand more, for example 120% one months rent.

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

Many thanks for posting the ACI thumb drive section, Charlie.
The section had reinforcing cover and placements defined, but no limits for column reinforcing.
Paragraph 7.7.5 addresses "corrosive environments or other severe exposure conditions" and suggests (? requires?) greater cover and more dense concrete or other protection.
If I recall, column design and limits of reinforcing was addressed in Chapter 10.

Quote (Vance Wiley (Structural)10 Sep 21 18:38)

If I recall, column design and limits of reinforcing was addressed in Chapter 10.

The paragraph numbers seem to have changed since 1977?
Please find attached a few page images from chapter 10.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=44fc3664-60fb-4282-8f5d-5

More shots fired at the NYT's article via Kilsheimer >>

Question of what caused Surfside, Florida, condo to collapse remains unresolved

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/09/10/surf-s...

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

That's it !!
Sectiom 10.9.1 LIMITS FOR REINFORCEMENT OF COMPRESSION MEMBERS.
10.9.1 Area of longitudinal reinforcement for non-composite compression members shall not be less than 0.01 not more than 0.08 times gross area Ag of section.

I see nothing mentioning lap zones. It is my thought that the columns that I have investigated so far met requirements of the then current ACI code as regards minimum and maximum amounts of main reinforcing.

Back in 1977 the ACI published the Commentary as a separate Document. Here are images from an excerpt of the commentary on chapter 10.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=94c89273-2287-42c6-8d84-a

Quote (Optical98)

More shots fired at the NYT's article via Kilsheimer >>

If he’s that wound about about the NYT, I can only imagine what he has to think about the jokers here!

Quote (Kilsheimer)

“You wouldn’t believe some of the stuff people are writing,”

Ain’t that the truth.

Quote (Spartan5)

If he’s that wound about about the NYT, I can only imagine what he has to think about the jokers here!

Ruptured aneurysm territory.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

This is from the SunSentinel via MSN
Building code board struggles with making inspection changes

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Jeff, 4 inches makes a huge difference to vehicle impact. 12 inches puts you around the 40km/h mark. 16 inches starts to make bottom shear impossible without high impact speeds. With increased concrete strength the required impact speed to bottom shear column increases exponentionally. If anything 12 inch column thickness is what I feel is a vulnerable weak state where vehicle impact data becomes impossible to ignore.

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

OOPS. Spoke too soon.
The Commentary on Column Reinforcement in the 1977 ACY 318 DOES address a 4% maximum reinforcing limit as follows:
10.9.1 The percentage of reinforcement in columns should usually not exceed 4 percent if the column bars are required to be lap spliced.

So does the term "should usually" define a violation of the code?
I would point out that procedures are and were available to ensure good concrete and full bonding of reinforcing in areas of congestion and bars were spliced while in contact - but the use of such techniques was probably beyond the capability of the contractor, if other conditions and results are any indication.
Then the next point becomes 'did the escess reinforcing cause the collapse'?

I thought we had been through this before...
A violation of the Commentary is not a violation of the code.
The 4% is so that the lap spices will not exceed 8%

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

If I am not mistaken, water has been spotted wicking it's way up rebar at the slab/column connections. Several columns also having fully rusted through rebar at the base. Not sure which columns, but it does seem to be situated around crowded columns.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Iirc the congestion issue arose not because it would by itself threaten the building but that crowded joints at the lower floors might present the contractor's people with excuses to leave out or mis-position some of the slab reinforcing at the column joints.

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)(OP)10 Sep 21 20:46
I thought we had been through this before...
A violation of the Commentary is not a violation of the code.
The 4% is so that the lap spices will not exceed 8%)

Sorry - I missed the consensus on Commentaries. But as far as I know the "double area" of bars at a lap splice was not defined prior to ACI 318-77 and it was later editions which defined the reason and application, with the concern being congestion and correct concrete placement.
It is a fine point, but attorneys make their livings on fine points.
From the viewpoint of amount of effective reinforcing contributing to the performance of a column I do not see an issue. As one bar loses load in a lap splice the lapping bar gains force. And I note that tests of columns with 12% reinforcing effectively performed like those having reinforcing within current limits.

Quote (SFCharlie)

…relocation often includes some allowance for relocation expenses paid buy the landlord.

Condo owners are not renters. The lawyer is proposing new laws to force property owners out of the property they own. This would set quite a precedent.

Quote (MaudSTL (Computer)10 Sep 21 21:42)

The lawyer is proposing new laws to force property owners out of the property they own. This would set quite a precedent.

Yes! I understand. I would think that a fair law would require the common area owner to compensate the condo owners at something like the fair market value, or if the common area owner has another condo building with available condos, provide condo owners with comprable condos.
An allowance for moving expenses should also be provided.


SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (AusG)

Iirc the congestion issue arose not because it would by itself threaten the building but that crowded joints at the lower floors might present the contractor's people with excuses to leave out or mis-position some of the slab reinforcing at the column joints.

That could be a very valid point. I still find it super odd that one of the repairs involved 3 #5 90* hooks to refasten the column to the pool deck. Could have just been no room for 4.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (MaudSTL (Computer))

Would not a Conco Owner's insurance policy provide moving expenses and cost of alternate housing for a period of repairs?
EDIT:
As a conco office owner the overall condo association policy covers the building shell and grounds and common areas and loss of rents, etc.

Quote (Demented)

If I am not mistaken, water has been spotted wicking it's way up rebar at the slab/column connections. Several columns also having fully rusted through rebar at the base. Not sure which columns, but it does seem to be situated around crowded columns.

Quote (Demented (Industrial)10 Sep 21 21:57
I still find it super odd that one of the repairs involved 3 #5 90* hooks to refasten the column to the pool deck. Could have just been no room for 4.)

Could you please show me where this detail is? Sounds interesting and I missed it.
Thank you,

Quote (Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental))

The side of that column looks like it has been patched with some sticky repair patch.
The proper repair of rusted rebar and cracked concrete is to remove any loose concrete, clean rebar, coat rebar with coal tar epoxy, and patch concrete with hi adhesion high strength polymer modified concrete mortar. Proper prep is square edges, minimum depths, etc. Can't tell if the rebar was cleaned and coated. The bar we see is likely the bottom of the long column bar in the column section and it laps a dowel from below.
Thanks for the pic.

I can't help but be amused that Kilsheimers recent comments were quoted in the World Socialist Web Site. They, at least, should understand large slabs of grey concrete.

Quote (AusG)

… Kilsheimers recent comments were quoted in the World Socialist Web Site.

I was delighted to see that! Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. Nobody from the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media is trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide. I’m glad an independent is stepping up to cover this piece of the story.

Quote (MaudSTL (Computer)10 Sep 21 23:53)

...Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. ...trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide.

I’m glad an independent is stepping up to cover this piece of the story ALSO.

Miami-Dade is trying to hide:
The very scary truth that this building just fell down after 40 years, without any particular trigger.
That lots of condos in Florida were built under that same ethical environment. That CTS is not unique.


SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (MaudSTL)

I was delighted to see that! Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. Nobody from the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media is trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide. I’m glad an independent is stepping up to cover this piece of the story.

Miami-Dade? You must mean NIST? What would Kilsheimer be doing or have done that they have not?

What’s concerning to me is that this building fell down under the watch of a consulting firm that was being paid $500,000 to assess, analyze, and ensure the structural integrity of the building.

Quote (WSWS)

High-rise condominiums line the south Florida coastline one after another in tight succession. Asked if any of them may be in danger, Kilsheimer replied, “I must have been asked that question a thousand times. Until I can begin to investigate, I will not be able to answer it.”

What happened at CTS has no bearing on that question. He says as much himself:

Quote (WSWS)

“Nobody can say that the concrete was the wrong strength or deteriorated. Nobody can say that the reinforcing steel was the wrong strength or had deteriorated. Nobody can say that the number of rebar that were in the deck was inadequate. Nobody can say the placement of the rebar in the deck was inadequate.” He concluded by plainly explaining, “Nobody can say the thicknesses of slabs were inadequate because no one has been able to sample and test any of that stuff.”

That’s true at every one of the buildings he’s been asked about too until someone assessed each of those things.

Quote (Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental)11 Sep 21 01:38)

What’s concerning to me is that this building fell down under the watch of a consulting firm that was being paid $500,000 to assess, analyze, and ensure the structural integrity of the building.

correct The firm did warn that the structural damage was increasing exponentially, but several have commented that there was no obvious evidence of immediate collapse. (Very Scary!

Quote (Spartan5)

Miami-Dade?

Miami-Dade is using the crime scene designation as the reason to bar Kilsheimer from working side by side with NIST. NIST is not preventing his participation, Miami-Dade is.

What does Miami-Dade gain by barring Kilsheimer in this unusual way? They know NIST will take years to publish a report, by which time nobody will care anymore (except this group, which will be on part 120.) Keeping Kilsheimer out will not protect Morabito, the Town of Surfside, the CTS Condo Board, or the people who collapsed the roof and backed their tar buggy through Column M11.1.

Apparently Miami-Dade believes that letting the Town of Surfside’s consulting engineer do his job, and possibly doing it faster than NIST does theirs, could complicate their ability to achieve their objectives, whatever they may be. Whatever their motivation, it makes them look like they are trying to hide something, and therefore costs them credibility.

It IS odd that Miami-Dade does not appear to be able to articulate a crime related to the crime scene.

I can understand, in the first few days, that there surely does LOOK like there could be a crime. But you're not sure what. But after several weeks of careful cogitation, wouldn't you think their Crack Legal Minds might have found SOME crime that might have happened that they could describe. And share that, using real words.

"We're still investigating to see IF there was a crime." is always appealing. But isn't that SO much like pulling a kid over in his car and holding him for hours to "investigate"?

After awhile, it starts to smell.

What it does look like is that there could be an investigation by the Feds, prompted by one guy or gal who just won't leave things alone.


It's also curious that Miami-Dade couldn't escort Kilsheimer around the site to his heart's content. NO, you may not pick that up. YES, of course you can look at that. By now, it's awfully hard to believe he could mess up the crime scene, considering. WHAT would he have to DO?


spsalso

Quote (MaudSTL)

Miami-Dade is using the crime scene designation as the reason to bar Kilsheimer from working side by side with NIST. NIST is not preventing his participation, Miami-Dade is.

SNIP

Apparently Miami-Dade believes that letting the Town of Surfside’s consulting engineer do his job, and possibly doing it faster than NIST does theirs, could complicate their ability to achieve their objectives, whatever they may be. Whatever their motivation, it makes them look like they are trying to hide something, and therefore costs them credibility.

If NIST wanted Kilsheimer to participate, all they’d have to do is ask him. And if Kilsheimer has offered his services to assist NIST with their investigation and he’s still on the outside looking in, then… you tell me.

You really think NIST wants another team crawling around, moving and taking whatever they see fit?

The NIST report will be THE Report.

Quote (spsalso)

It's also curious that Miami-Dade couldn't escort Kilsheimer around the site to his heart's content. NO, you may not pick that up. YES, of course you can look at that. By now, it's awfully hard to believe he could mess up the crime scene, considering. WHAT would he have to DO?

Why limit it to Kilsheimer? What if the board wanted to hire someone too? Or just let Morabito Consultants do a little more core drilling here and there. Or lawyers… they have engineers too. Maybe some former resident watched a PowerTube or five and decided what we really need to be doing is uncovering the wayward bungie-buggies? Where does it end?

Quote (Spartan5)

Where does it end?

Where Mr. Kilsheimer refuses to take direction. "Look, but do not touch." Is it that difficult?

On consideration, you might have a point that the "list" might keep growing until me and my dog show up.

So you figure "crime scene" really means "how about nobody?".

S'pose it works.


spsalso

Were sites at the collapse of structures like the WTC, Murrah Building, Minnesota I-35 bridge, and FIU bridge open to numerous investigative entities?

I feel like these events and others like them have always been the "tip of the spear" jurisdiction of agencies like NIST and NTSB, with various independent subconsultants then retained as required to contribute to a unified effort in the face of difficult, complicated circumstances.

For example, NIST states in its WTC report that it complemented in-house expertise with private sector technical experts. NTSB retained Wiss Janney Elstner to assist with the I-35 bridge effort. And so on and so forth.

That Kilsheimer is apparently on the outside looking in shouldn't be terribly surprising. What would be the rationale for his Surfside engagement to supersede NIST? What if NIST actually considered engaging his firm, or perhaps he offered to be a part of NIST's effort, and the terms simply didn't work? It happens. Hell as much as I myself would love to be able to assist and contribute to the effort, what would be my basis for complaining if I were denied?

For CTS, NIST and its network of related agencies and outside subconsultants constitutes a vast compilation of manpower and resources. Undoubtedly there are differing opinions, theories, models, and data born therein that must be vetted through. We're talking a fleet of licensed engineers and related professionals, each of whom bear the burden of maintaining standard of care in the face of a very high profile and complex structural disaster.

Any notion that there is some grand conspiracy just doesn't resonate with me. Instead I see a unified, organized, and measured agency response, with a pretty transparent chain of command.

If Kilsheimer was a cook that NIST thought they needed with them in the kitchen, he'd be there. His being left on the proverbial bench doesn't mean that strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.

How about your allowed to live in a condo that may fall down in the future, but you cannot sell it or rent it? Maybe when major issues are found, either you fix them or you end up in such a state where you can't sell and can't earn money from it. Either you spend the money fixing or suffer such a financial state. Then if your building falls over, you really only have yourself to blame.

When you're interested in buying a home, you can have a home inspection done. They are very thorough, of the issues found - the owner has to make repairs or offer allowances in the asking price.

These home inspectors may do something of the same in condos, but how qualified are they to find some of these type of issues? This has to be expanded upon. They also need to research previous building inspections and be allowed to access reserve fund status etc.

If the number of state, county or township inspections of these buildings is increased or more frequent (hopefully), and maintenance & repairs are not being kept up to par, this evaluation needs to be put on record at the tax assessment office.

Devaluation in public records would get everyone's attention.

Hope this makes sense...still on my 1st cuppa joe this fine morning o/

Hundreds of items found at the Surfside collapse site. Police may not return them all.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/m...

There are two separate things going on with the CTS collapse…1. a criminal investigation by police and 2. a forensic investigation of the building collapse. The issue here is a logical gap related to data access, not a conspiracy, for goodness’ sake!

If the police are conducting a criminal investigation, then they should bar all entities from access to the site and material until after they have finished their criminal investigation. Instead, Miami-Dade PD is apparently continuing to conduct its criminal investigation, and at the same time picking and choosing who gets access to data…so far it’s Yes to NIST and No to the Town of Surfside.

What is unprecedented in this situation is Miami-Dade’s inconsistent application of the rules of crime scene access. This unusual inconsistency raises the question of what Miami-Dade hopes to gain by obstructing the Town of Surfside from conducting its own investigation.

In the US there is no precedent for limiting forensic investigations after a building collapse…any public or private entity with an interest in understanding what happened and the means to engage a forensic engineer does so. The WTC collapse, for example, was investigated by multiple entities. Professional engineers seem to know how to work without stepping on each others’ toes…there is no record of issues between the various investigatory entities at the WTC.

I have so far not found a rule or law that prevents the Town of Surfside, Miami-Dade County/PD, the CTS Condo Board, etc. from engaging their own forensic engineers in an investigation. NIST is there because Congress realized after 9/11/2001 that there was no federal agency tasked with doing this kind of work…so they passed legislation designating NIST to do so with the ultimate objective being increased construction safety. But that doesn’t make NIST the official lead investigator if more than one investigation has been undertaken.

Quote (MaudSTL)

The issue here is a logical gap related to data access, not a conspiracy, for goodness’ sake!

I must have misread this.

Quote (MaudSTL)

Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. Nobody from the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media is trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide.

As for conflicts, this is what he wants to do:

Quote (WSWS)

We need to look at the under-slab drainage if there is one. We need to expose the pile caps, check the pile caps, the reinforcing of the pile caps. Then we have to shoot what amounts to sound waves down the piles and the outside of the piles to check the soil and the rock to see what is existing below the rock.

Then we need to take cores down the piles to see the condition of the piles themselves. That is a two-month process, pretty much, to do it thoroughly. Then you have to dewater the site while you are doing it because at high tide water comes in and it rains here all the time.

I ask again, what would he be doing that NIST isn’t?

It doesn’t seem far-fetched to me, the need for there to be controlled access to the site while NIST completes their investigation. And that if NIST wanted Kilsheimer there. He would be there.

Funny that they hauled away evidence during a police investigation... you'd think they would get their stories correct.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Quote (dik)

Funny that they hauled away evidence during a police investigation... you'd think they would get their stories correct.

I know, right?

Round my parts, any time there’s a fatal car accident they leave the scattered remains of vehicles sitting where they stopped for months.

IF NIST is like NTSB then entities can become parties to the investigation, if they abide by the rules of no press involvement till the NIST investigation is over. Surfside could and should be a party to the structural investigation, as they are providing records of the history of the regulation and inspection of the construction and modifications to the building. They are, we believe being very transparent.

edit(of course, Kilsheimer would have to keep quiet.)

Quote (Spartan5)

I must have misread this.

It seems so. Where I’m from, a conspiracy requires multiple parties. Miami-Dade, which is located in a part of Florida known historically for corruption, is a single party that is acting like it has something to hide. I am curious to understand why they are acting that way, instead of working to project an image of honesty and transparency as the Town of Surfside has been attempting, at least up until this re-zoning fiasco, to do. Maybe Miami-Dade simply needs a better PR crisis management team.

Quote (Spartain5)

…what would he be doing that NIST isn’t?

What does that matter? The point is that historically corrupt Miami-Dade is providing selective access to what their PD has flimsily designated a crime scene, and by doing so has set the County up for a Town of Surfside lawsuit to force access. Whatever the County’s objective, it seems so important to them that not only are they willing to appear to be corrupt and risk a lawsuit but also they have allowed their PD to all intents and purposes destroy their own crime scene. If forensic engineers had been in charge of that site, they wouldn't have allowed Miami-Dade to decontextualize the debris by rushing to scrape the site bare.

Two and a half months later, I’d like to know the status of the criminal investigation that requires the site and debris as evidence. When will the criminal investigation be completed, the crime scene tape removed, and a grand jury convened?

How best could they have preserved the crime scene without destruction of it and continue the search and rescue/recovery effort?

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

...just so you know I didn't pull the idea of the slab drop beam twistting out of my, aah "hat"...

Quote (The Washington Post)

The precise mechanics of that force could have taken several forms...
Or the collapsing deck could have acted like a wrench and twisted the drop beam to the point of “mutual destruction of both the beams and columns at those connection points,” said Joshua Porter of Consult Engineering in Punta Gorda, Fla.

How a collapsed pool deck could have caused a Florida condo building to fall

Joshua Porter (BuildingIntegrity) ( I didn't find the particular video where he say this)

SF Charlie
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Quote (MaudSTL)

Where I’m from, a conspiracy requires multiple parties. Miami-Dade, which is located in a part of Florida known historically for corruption, is a single party that is acting like it has something to hide.

I must have misread this:

Quote (MaudSTL)

Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. Nobody from the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media is trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide.

Quote (MaudSTL)

Whatever the County’s objective, it seems so important to them that not only are they willing to appear to be corrupt and risk a lawsuit but also they have allowed their PD to all intents and purposes destroy their own crime scene. If forensic engineers had been in charge of that site, they wouldn't have allowed Miami-Dade to decontextualize the debris by rushing to scrape the site bare.

You sound entirely ignorant of the extensive amount of data NIST collected during that process, which they appeared to have controlled. Or you are intentionally ignoring it to shore up this conspiracy of yours.

NIST is there. Identifying, tagging, documenting, and collecting all that they need. In plain sight. You have seen this, right? Is it not on a spreadsheet somewhere?

https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2021/07/upda...

Quote:

NIST staff members are coordinating and leading remote sensing efforts to determine where pieces of evidence were located in the debris pile. They are supported by experts from the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), Florida State University, the Miami-Dade Fire Rescue Department, the National Science Foundation (NSF), the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS).

“ If forensic engineers had been in charge of that site…”

IF??? You act like NIST is hanging out at the landfill trying to capture select bits from the trucks before dumped. That NIST article is the EXACT opposite of what you’ve described, a la “they have allowed their PD to all intents and purposes destroy their own crime scene.” Come off it already.

Has NIST logged any complaints about the county’s handling of the site and destruction of evidence? They must be part of the conspiracy too. Along with the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media.

Quote (Demented (Industrial)11 Sep 21 18:27)

How best could they have preserved the crime scene without destruction of it and continue the search and rescue/recovery effort?

Good question (I believe the search and rescue people knew that there were no survivors at the point they demolished the west wing.) The surprise urgency of the demolition is "intriguing?". Residents of the west wing thought they had 2 or 3 weeks to act, and then CTS was coming down "tomorrow". I'm not clear what was gained by the "hasty" action. (maybe the hurricane would have destabilized the building, making it dangerous to demolish?) Anyway, I'm in no position to second guess the recovery effort.

SF Charlie
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Quote (Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental)11 Sep 21 18:44)

...the extensive amount of data NIST collected during that process, which they appeared to have controlled.

Somehow, all the video they have released is of NIST wandering around closely examining columns that have be remove by excavators after cleaning the site. They make clear in the sound bites they released, that the search and rescue was in control of the site and that they worked around them, but I never saw them in video anywhere but outside the perimeter.

SF Charlie
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conspiracy Police paid by politicians reelected with donations from developers, contractors, building supply suppliers, realtors, etc. and paid their salaries out of property taxes collected.

edit ...even the governor stepped in to control the narrative from day one, how different than the FIU bridge press conferences

Quote (SFCharlie)

Good question (I believe the search and rescue people knew that there were no survivors at the point they demolished the west wing.) The surprise urgency of the demolition is "intriguing?". Residents of the west wing thought they had 2 or 3 weeks to act, and then CTS was coming down "tomorrow". I'm not clear what was gained by the "hasty" action. (maybe the hurricane would have destabilized the building, making it dangerous to demolish?) Anyway, I'm in no position to second guess the recovery effort.

The remaining structure was unstable and swaying already without tropical storm force winds. There were fears that higher winds, and even more rain, could have toppled the remaining structure onto the existing rubble pile, making any efforts even more difficult in retrieving souls/bodies. Thankfully the storm missed.

Edit:
As corrupt as I want to scream Miami-Dade is, that's probably more going to lean on the side of it just simply being prime real estate.
A town official and the engineering firm behind the renovation work were on the property the day before the collapse in the early AM hours. Nothing was reported to have been out of the ordinary, despite it being fact that the work was completed before the permit was granted. Also with the quickly discovered history of certain building officials, the town itself kinda got put under the search light. Kilsheimer might not like it, but there's a good chance he's just dealing with a conflict of interest due to who hired him being under investigation. I'm all for crazy conspiracies but I just don't think things are being covered up by Miami-Dade.

Quote (Demented (Industrial)11 Sep 21 19:41)

making any efforts even more difficult in retrieving souls/bodies. Thankfully the storm missed.

Yes
edit

Quote (Demented (Industrial)11 Sep 21 19:41)

that's probably more going to lean on the side of it just simply being prime real estate.

Yes again

Quote (a conspiracy requires multiple parties)

I'm not into conspiracies... just corrupt/shady government... fact, not conspiracy.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Conspiracy. Corruption.

Potayto. Potahto.

I'm simply saying that, with regards to some of the discourse on this thread, the sensationalism is shape-shifting.

Originally it was talk of rolls of tar paper on the roof being the smoking gun for pool deck collapse. And now that folks seem to have exhausted their Rube Goldberg-like imaginations, the conversation has morphed into evidence tampering and jurisdictional scheming.

It's more entertainment than it is engineering at this point.

The word Conspiracy has been used on this forum 465 times.
The word Corruption has been used on this forum 426 times.

These words are thrown around to gaslight and discourage open discourse and a free exchange of ideas. I haven't seen any sensationalism. And any serious investigation will put all possibilities on the table and vet each one.

We can't pretend that money and politics could not play a roll here, in what happened, who gets access and what gets told to the public.

98 lives were lost 3 months ago, many more lives permanently turned upside down..
They deserve better than the juvenile behavior and mockery that keeps coming from the same people on here.
No one on here knows what exactly happened nor has anyone license to try and shutdown open and honest inquiry on this thread.

What we are suffering from is a lack of new material to work on. There are no published tables and formulae for the motivations and trustworthiness of the agencies at work, so personal perceptions take over, in which we all ... draw different lines and arrows on our PowerPoint... In short, let's wait until something new turns up with a degree of faith in our ability to assess it when it does.

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)11 Sep 21 22:00)

No one on here knows what exactly happened nor has anyone license to try and shutdown open and honest inquiry on this thread.

Yes First Thank you for posting links to articles of interest!
What I haven't seen recently is open and honest inquiry into what exactly happened.
There are posts here about the tips of the remaining columns in pool deck area.
There are posts about how the pool deck collapse pulled down the center façade of the south face of the north wing.
Let's talk about these? or any other aspect of what exactly happened?

SF Charlie
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The supplements are cumulative so everything from the 1973,74,75 Supplements are in 1976 also, attached below.

SF Charlie
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• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=a395e775-4ceb-4490-934e-a

318-1971 Commentary excerpt from chapter 10

SF Charlie
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• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=a82c62f5-12d3-408b-a2d0-8

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)(OP)12 Sep 21 01:59
318-1971 Commentary excerpt from chapter 10)

YEOMAN WORK, CHARLIE. MANY THANKS!!!
And a gold star.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Demented (Industrial)12 Sep 21 14:45)

Contractor to certify & verify, in writing, to this engineer, that the existing cons. slab is 12" thick prior to installing awning.

Wow, do we have a date?

SF Charlie
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Quote (Miami Herald)

New materials can make Florida condos more durable. Almost no one uses them

SF Charlie
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That specific note, sometime in July 2004 likely.
Permit 04-00000469

Quote (Miami Herald)

How to prevent the next collapse? These ideas are being proposed locally and in Tallahassee

Subscribe to the Miami Herald for uplifting stories like "‘This is my first catch.’ Meet the Miami fans who used American flag to save falling cat"

SF Charlie
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If one doesn't have new info, take a closer look at the old...
What's Waldo?
Please help me identify the lettered objects, Thanks.

SF Charlie
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• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=c73b7037-8394-4778-87ef-7

Quote (Demented (Industrial)12 Sep 21 17:20)

That specific note, sometime in July 2004 likely.

Thanks

SF Charlie
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Quote (SFCharlie)

Wow, do we have a date?

WOW? I thought we were expecting 9.5 inches of structural concrete, then at least 2 or 2.5 inches of topping concrete?
So if it's less than 12, call the engineers so they can evaluate it seems like pretty standard stuff to me.
Then they chip off the tile and sand and bolt directly to the 11.625 inch slab.
If I was the contractor I would just call the Engineer to get a clarification of what he expected and what I found.

Nukeman948

Careful or we'll get 10 more posts of the ACI Code book..

Quote (Optical98)

Careful or we'll get 10 more posts of the ACI Code book..

I have no problem with the "free and open exchange of ideas". If it takes 10 more posts because some people want to be cryptic and mysterious, that's fine with me. But I can't engage in honest discussion without knowing what the issue is here.

Nukeman

Like the mysterious P column or "What's Waldo"?

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)2 Sep 21 03:16)

Also, did we ever decide what these items on the roof were, this is a satellite photo est date 6/22/21, showing the roofing crane as roof work was still in progress.
What is that large round silver object?

Did we ever get an answer? UFO?

SF Charlie
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SFCharlie

Now...10 days later you're asking me this? I didn't see a response. But the picture I added with my question wasn't high res to say the least.
So Unidentified Object, Not flying.

Isn't E just the HVAC unit which sat on top of the red framework (D)?

Note the red framework has been flipped upside down (the short beams running up/down the page hung under the long beams running left/right across the page).

Unidentified object E is then the HVAC unit, smashed and split open along the seams.

Check the photo provided by Demented (3rd post, part 9) for reference.

Quote (RandomTaskkk (Structural)13 Sep 21 14:39)

Isn't E just the HVAC unit which sat on top of the red framework (D)?

I think you're right, Thanks

SF Charlie
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In my attempts to ID stuff in Debris, I made these:

SF Charlie
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Quote (SFCharlie)

If one doesn't have new info, take a closer look at the old... What's Waldo? Please help me identify the lettered objects, Thanks.

While we are asking for help in identifying objects, can anyone help me identify the object in the yellow box in the following photo?

SF Charlie

You know what those items are... item B has been discussed several times.
What is going on here?

MarkBob

Do you have the original, unzoomed pic? I can't tell what direction or when in the clean-up this is.
I might have something clearer if I know where to look.

Quote (SFCharlie)

In my attempts to ID stuff in Debris, I made these:

Sorry, I thought you were joking about getting an ID on these things because they have all been identified before.
A. Unknown column or possibly one of the beams that held up D and E Probably a door. (Thanks Optical98).
B. Part of the East shear wall, you can see where the stairs and landings were.
C. Another part of the East shear wall.
D. Steel frame that supported the large A/C. (It's upside down).
E. Large A/C unit. There are plenty of better pictures of it on previous pages and discussion on how it must have tumbled on its way down.
F. Bigfoot.
I didn't bother counting the floors. Some can't be seen because they are in the basement.


Since some people here don't seem to understand my humor, Bigfoot is not real, I just wanted to say F. Bigfoot.

Quote (MarkBoB2)

...the object in the yellow box in the following photo?

Can't see anything we can identify to get a size reference, but, to the right of it could be an automobile, so it could be a partially obscured scrunched up automobile.

Item A is a board, shelf...drop ceiling tile? It's too clean across the top to be a broken beam or column imo. Maybe a closet door or Bifold?

Quote (Optical98)

Maybe a closet door or Bifold?

Yes.
A much better photo proves (at least to me) what a waste of time it can be to try to identify items by zooming in on pictures when we know the investigators have already laid hands on those items and found them to be totally unremarkable and irrelevant to explaining how this building failed.

Nukeman

They may have, but from what we're being told they're not going to share anything with us for 4-5 yrs. But there are games being played on here, I agree.

SFCharlie,

Isn't B the shearwall to the staircase in the collapsed part of the building? It was connected to the section which fell last, fell off during its collapse, ended up on top? You can see the stair pattern.

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)13 Sep 21 17:29)

You know what those items are... item B has been discussed several times.
What is going on here?

Sorry, I did not recognize the shear walls.
The AC looked like cylinder, I don't know why and "A" looked like it was standing vertical when viewed from the SE but I realized what it was when I viewed it from the NE.

SF Charlie
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Quote (Optical98)

Do you have the original, unzoomed pic? I can't tell what direction or when in the clean-up this is.

Thank you, Optical98. Here is an unzoomed photo that you can zoom in on by scrolling in Windows 10:

Quote (AutisticBez (Computer)13 Sep 21 19:14)

Isn't B the shearwall to the staircase in the collapsed part of the building? It was connected to the section which fell last, fell off during its collapse, ended up on top? You can see the stair pattern.

Yep! Thanks

SF Charlie
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Quote (Nukeman948 (Electrical)13 Sep 21 17:29)

Sorry, I thought you were joking about getting an ID on these things because they have all been identified before.

The shear walls threw me. Thanks

SF Charlie
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Quote (Optical98 (Computer)13 Sep 21 17:45)

Item A is a board, shelf...drop ceiling tile? It's too clean across the top to be a broken beam or column imo. Maybe a closet door or Bifold?

Thanks for the reference photo, yea, but there's a row of somethings across the top (like rebar?, too small?)

SF Charlie
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Quote (Optical98 (Computer)13 Sep 21 17:29)

Do you have the original, unzoomed pic? I can't tell what direction or when in the clean-up this is.
I might have something clearer if I know where to look.

I think this might be what you're looking for...


edit (is this part of the demoed North wing?)(I think the standing column is I14.1)

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=a30c69cf-5610-41ef-8ab0-7

Hi All,

Not sure if we’ve beat this horse to death yet but just in case we haven’t, the pic posted up above shows some pretty significant damage at the area of the OSHA hooks, circled:



I’m not suggesting there was anything hanging from these, and the slab around them is all present. Nevertheless the amount of damage around these is curious. Why were they a weak spot such that they completely pulled out of the slab?

I see the one at the lower left. On the upper right, I see a sheet metal box.

For the lower left one, I do suspect the the anchoring provided a weak spot to start a crack. When it landed.

It's then a reach to say it CAUSED something.

Are you saying that, except for that OSHA thingy, the roof slab would have fallen and stayed in one piece? Maybe. So?


spsalso

RE: MarkBoB2's Photo:
I think the Blue Circle is the Approximate Camera Position?:


SF Charlie
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Quote (JS5180)

Hi All,

Not sure if we’ve beat this horse to death yet

What looks like cracks are rips in the roofing torn off of the slab, this does not mean that the slab cracked in these locations before it fell....the roofing system is ripped, probably due to the impact. I would not read anything into this picture, as is the case for many of the pictures posted here ad nauseam.

Quote (spsalso)

I am perhaps misreading this, but it sounds like the corners were "rounded" by the bars passing them as the slab descended.

That is an interesting observation, and one possible explanation. Others could be that it is the angle of the concrete shear cracks, or it could be a by-product of the poor slab concrete.

Quote (Spartan5)

details of some of the column tops

Here are a few close-ups captured way back in Thread 3, 7 jul 21 1:23

The poor condition of the deck slab concrete is apparent. It's also worth noting the hooks from the column steel. They haven't engaged any deck slab concrete. And in most instances you see the 4 corner bars sticking up. I would have expected at a bare minimum they should have been ripped away by the deck slab steel as the columns punched thru. In fact the deck slab column strip rebar is largely absent from the images. Is this a result of missing rebar, bad concrete, or a combination of both?

Major repairs were slated for some of the column caps. Which ones we can only guess at, as they are not even clearly indicated on the plans (Sheet S2C-1.0, note 10 of the 40 yr restoration Link). But clearly Morabito saw a problem. Was it inadequate original design? Was it punky concrete? Was it missing top slab column strip rebar? Maybe it was all three.


Here's a question for the NIST investigators. Even if all of the deck slab column rebar that was called out on the plans had been provided (4-#5 or 25% of column strip rebar centered over column), would that have prevented the successive punching shear failures, given the (seemingly) poor condition of the deck slab concrete?

Quote (TheGreenLama (Structural)14 Sep 21 16:23)

Here's a question for the NIST investigators. Even if all of the deck slab column rebar that was called out on the plans had been provided (4-#5 or 25% of column strip rebar centered over column), would that have prevented the successive punching shear failures, given the (seemingly) poor condition of the deck slab concrete?

While we wait a few years for NIST, I'm going to ponder the question; if the rebar had been adequately protected from water intrusion, would the deck have failed?

SF Charlie
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As noted before, the inadequate cover brings the repair into question...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Quote (dik)

As noted before, the inadequate cover brings the repair into question...

Agreed. The viability of that repair is highly dubious. I'm just stating that Morabito saw problems with the existing conditions.

Quote (SFCharlie)

if the rebar had been adequately protected from water intrusion, would the deck have failed?

An equally valid question. As the building stood for 40 years with poor waterproofing, my guess would be it would not have failed.

Morabito was voiced concerns by the Board about shoddy repair work in specific locations as well. The board and long time residents were worried of being ripped off again, especially since they had never spent more than $2m at once on a renovation project before, for the same scope of work. Roof, balconies, deck repair, landscaping, etc. Morabito had more than one reason to be concerned with past work.

Quote (TheGreenLama (Structural) 14 Sep 21 16:23)

Major repairs were slated for some of the column caps. Which ones we can only guess at, as they are not even clearly indicated on the plans (Sheet S2C-1.0, note 10 of the 40 yr restoration Link).

Actually, it is clear from this version of the Morabito plans where the "new slab drop panel" detail was planned. Note 10 on S2C-1.0 defines these locations with a box with a dash line. If you look at the driveway area near the west end of the site, you will see where this condition is outlined at several locations. You'll note that none of the pool deck slab areas were calling for this added reinforcement in this set of drawings.

Quote (CE3527)

Actually, it is clear from this version of the Morabito plans where the "new slab drop panel" detail was planned.

Thanks for that. For the life of me I couldn't locate them. By the way, here's a working link to those plans Link. The one I included above is in error.

So then it appears that Morabito WAS satisfied with the existing column top and slab design. That's very unfortunate.

If anyone is interested>>

Watch Live: Surfside Town Commission Meeting - September 14, 2021

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0K9g95LsEU

Kilsheimer starts speaking around 22:50

Broward committee recommends changes after Surfside condo collapse

Related press release.

Re the Broward county list. Interesting that the only specific technical mention was "better quality concrete".

Quote (AugG)

Re Broward county list.

Absolutely nothing about rebar placing and inspections, submission of concrete cylinder tests, inspection of concrete placement, provision of suitable waterproofing in seaside settings etc. etc. Oh and this is based on expert advice??? Better quality concrete than what??

Unless I missed it, there is nothing that would have prevented the original collapse, and/or future collapses.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

I think the point is to APPEAR to be doing something, while directing the responsibility to others, preferably not in government positions.


spsalso

Quote (AusG)

Re the Broward county list. Interesting that the only specific technical mention was "better quality concrete".

Surfside isn't in Broward county, so kind of irrelevant.

Quote (Reverse_Bias)

Surfside isn't in Broward county, so kind of irrelevant.

Except that they're sending their clever ideas to the state legislature. And Surfside IS in the state. So it is sorta relevant. To Surfside.


spsalso

The Miami Herald has published an infographic that shows which units had no fatalities, which units did have fatalities, and who those people were. Remembering the victims of the Surfside tower collapse

I have added this link to the Collapse Witness Statement timeline.

Should local small towns be in charge of such a big thing?

Quote (AutisticBez)

Should local small towns be in charge of such a big thing?

Like, for example, San Francisco and the Millennium Tower?

I am not at all sure the States or the federal government have demonstrated an overall superior ability.


spsalso

Florida publishes their own building code rather than having the ICC included by reference.
https://www.floridabuilding.org/bc/bc_default.aspx

The document is actually published on the ICC site https://codes.iccsafe.org/codes/florida so the exact relationship is clouded.

Given the way Florida has structured this relationship, the only way to recommend changes to the Florida building code is probably via the legislative process.

The press release did not appear to have any recommendations that would cover a situation where the jurisdiction waives rules.

Quote (spsalso (Electrical)19 Sep 21 04:24)

Like, for example, San Francisco and the Millennium Tower?

Ok OK, Please be gentle_
The City (as SF likes to call itself), is a city of artists, artists with no taste, but artists still, not engineers. They have the worst schools that spend the most money... ups, off topic.
So, I know you're all jealous of our Mediterranean climate, but give us a break...
To the south we have the valley, engineers with more taste than the City (not saying much), and to the north we have wine country. (where we're all stoned...)
(sorry, I'm only on my first cupa coffee, way out west as it is...)

The Miami Herald has published a long piece called
Ordinary moments turned extraordinary in the final hours before Surfside condo collapse that combines the collapse timeline (which either validates or is based on on the CTS Witness Collapse Statement Timeline) with human interest snippets from interviews with survivors and relatives of survivors. It does a much better job of sequencing the experiences of the Nirs (111,) the Vazquezes (garage and elevator,) and Security Guard Shamoka Furman (lobby) than previous stories have done.

The descriptions have embellishments that are not direct quotes (having no quotation marks) and may or may not be accurate. For example, there is a new description of the pool collapse experience in the lobby:

Quote (Miami Herald)

Nir walked down the hall to the lobby and complained to security guard Shamoka Furman, who was working the graveyard shift. As they discussed the noise, which Furman thought was coming from the elevator, the floor rippled like an ocean wave beneath their feet. They heard a sharp whirring sound, like a drill.

They don’t attribute the descriptions of the floor and the drilling sound, which are new details.

I also think they get some details wrong due to artistic license and lack of understanding of the building plan. For example, they have Sarah Nir looking through the lobby glass and across the collapsed pool deck at her unit’s patio on the other side of the planter in the brief time that she observed the cars sticking up out of the nearby collapsed surface parking.

Quote (Miami Herald)

At about 1:15 a.m. Nir dashed toward the lobby windows, looked south toward the surface parking and pool area and saw that the deck outside 111, by the concrete planters that enclosed her patio, had caved into the underground parking garage. Cars were swallowed up, smashing like toys into the vehicles below, jutting into the air at odd angles.

Sarah Nir has not stated in previous interviews that she saw the pool deck collapsed by her unit, and this description is not a quotation. So I am still skeptical that she actually looked beyond the collapsed surface parking, which is all she has described in video interviews.

The Miami Herald also has Ileana Monteagudo (611) exiting the stairs into the lobby, which we know is not possible because the staircase exited onto the pool deck at the lobby level.

Quote (Miami Herald)

Monteagudo got down the final four flights and shoved open a door into the dark and smoky lobby. She turned on her cellphone flashlight. She heard water gushing and people crying for help.

Ms. Monteagudo has always said she exited directly into the garage, which is where Ms. Furman found her and guided her out of the rubble.

I have added the link to this piece to the CTS Collapse Witness Statements Timeline.

MaudSTL

Thanks for the article link. I haven't even read it yet because I'm so perplexed by the description of "a whirling drilling sound"...oy >.<

Possible elevator car cable slipping? All of those bursts of light on the roof by the elevator housing we see in the collapse video... could be connected? We'd have to have the timing of the video to the statements but we're missing the first few seconds of that video...

^ just contemplating...

Quote (SFCharlie)

To the south we have the valley, engineers with more taste than the City (not saying much), and to the north we have wine country. (where we're all stoned...)

And to the west, there's the Pacific Ocean, which does what an ocean's gotta do, day in and day out.

And to the east, there's the catchily named East Bay--just a wee bit less pretentious than The City. And more Mediterranean.


spsalso

Quote (Optical98)

perplexed by the description of "a whirling drilling sound"...oy >.<

I’ve been thinking about that too. It would be nice to know whose words those were…they may have been the reporter’s description, as they aren’t quoted. I believe it’s a mistake to take that description literally or assume it is accurate.

My theory is that it may be a way the reporter describes how Shamoka Furman described the pancaking of the building to the police. Go to 4:45 in this bodycam video, when Shamoka says, “All I heard is <trill.>”

MaudSTL

You're right. I had forgotten that...the sound she made when describing it during the body-cam vids.
I had the wrong "drilling" sound in my head.

Quote (They have the worst schools that spend the most money...)

From what I've encountered there are a lot of other state that beat them to it... Florida, Texas and Georgia for a start...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Quote:

The Miami Herald has published a long piece called...

In this well-done article, as well as their earlier well-done expose of floor-by-floor victims, the Miami Herald attributed Gassie Stratton as having lived in Apartment 410. Note that an earlier posting from many threads ago had shown her living in Apartment 412, which is apparently in error. This is realy much of a mute point at this point in time, but in case there was other information noted in the database or elsewhere based on this information, just pointing out that it is incorrect. (Obviously in the early stages, much of the available information was preliminary and sometimes incorrect, so no blame to the original poster.)

There was a photo posted in thread 2 of the area under the lobby. It definitely would have caused some shaking. I imagine this would have made a or tearing, grinding or skidding sound. Maybe 'whirling' is a translation issue or some pipes breaking. In her past statement she said it was a 'metallic boom.'

Quote (sgw1009)

…in case there was other information noted in the database or elsewhere…

Since it was originally published on July 27, 2021, Cassie Stratton has been shown in the CTS Collapse Witness Statement Timeline as being in 410.

>>>>Edit: addition

Quote (Reverse_Bias)

Maybe 'whirling' is a translation issue or some pipes breaking. In her past statement she said it was a 'metallic boom.'

We don’t know who used the terms “whirring” and “like a drill” in that story. The options are the reporter, Shamoka Furman, or Sarah Nir. My theory is that it’s the reporter, because she doesn’t actually use quotation marks or attribution.

The latest Building Integrity video gives a good history of the CTS project, the people involved and possible corruption.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk2hmytlDg8

So is it a "sharp whirring sound like a drill" or "a whirling drilling sound". Notice the spelling in each "quote". Are we reading too much into this unverifiable "evidence"?

How one person describes a sound is not the same as how another person interprets the same sound.
Perhaps "sharp" refers to the condition of the drill bit, as a sharp drill bit makes a different sound from a dull drill bit. A large drill press sounds different from a Milwaukee hole hog, or a cheap Craftsman 3/8 drill"
The description may have been of a twist drill bit, forstner bit, spade bit, auger bit or even a hole saw. Each one will make a slightly different sound as well.
Perhaps it describes the sound that comes from drilling different materials, as cast iron sounds different from drilling steel or bronze or most woods. Coolant or are we going in dry?

Some people say a tornado sounds like a train. Does a tornado sound like a freight train, circus train or a bullet train? Steam engine, electric trolley or diesel? Are there crossing bells? Steam whistle or diesel horn echoing off the canyon walls? Are the tracks welded or do the wheels go clackety-clack where the rails join?


While this whole discussion about sound is a good example of how journalism works, or doesn't work, it is almost meaningless in understanding how a building in Surfside came to an end. Remember, all news source's main goal is to sell as many copies as possible.

Are we selling the steak or the sizzle?
Gotta' go, my favorite "Bubble-headed bleach blond" is coming on at 5 and I've got some "Dirty Laundry" to take care of.

Rusted rebar snapping sending vibrations through a buildings column might sound like a drill. I would assume predicting sound patterns through a gigantic 12 floor building might be difficult for the human imagination to understand. Might need the mythbusters team on this. Maybe they could drive a car into the north tower and record the results?

@Nukmeman948
Unclamped quarter inch marine brass with a nicely razor sharpened aircraft HSS bit in a hammer drill on full send with the lazy man button engaged.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Jumped into the thread after a few days without checking, not disappointed:

Quote (Nukeman948)

Does a tornado sound like a freight train, circus train or a bullet train? Steam engine, electric trolley or diesel? Are there crossing bells?

Quote (Demented)

Unclamped quarter inch marine brass with a nicely razor sharpened aircraft HSS bit in a hammer drill on full send with the lazy man button engaged.

LOL

Right, we're in a holding pattern here until NIST releases its report in 2027.

While you’re waiting for two or three years for the NIST report, you may be interested in the Miami Herald’s report (complete with the click-baity headline and anti-Surfside snark) on NIST’s difficulty getting 40-year-old building documentation. No, Champlain Towers records apparently weren’t stolen — but Surfside still can’t find some

Quote (MaudSTL)

Herald article

There seems to be an air of bullheadedness between surfside and the other authorities.

Re the missing as-builts. Morabito would not have used old plans if his client had newer ones. Has anyone noticed structural differences between Morabito drawings and the originals?

The city I live in cant locate drawings for buildings built less than 20yezrs ago.

FIU incorporates the CTS collapse into their coursework. In the absence of chemical analysis data, students are building a model and looking at column collapse, inadequate expansion joints, and column sizing as factors. https://www.nbcmiami.com/on-air/as-seen-on/fiu-tea...

I just uploaded "Miami Condo Collapse EXCLUSIVE On-Site Photos Close Up Columns": https://youtu.be/Jje8KYHN6kw

There are over 100 photos shot on the condo collapse site a few days ago, showing closeups of the pumps in the foundation pumping out water, and closeups of certain columns, the H-beam, and the vestibule in the garage.

Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)24 Sep 21 17:48)

There are over 100 photos shot on the condo collapse site a few days ago

URL Please, while I go what your new video!
Thanks.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical) 24 Sep 21 17:48)

I just uploaded "Miami Condo Collapse EXCLUSIVE On-Site Photos Close Up Columns": https://youtu.be/Jje8KYHN6kw

From 7:43 of Jeff's video, I see a problem. The original slab and topping were buried under a second slab, topping, and pavers.

All bets are off. The evidence is clear.

Quote (Sym P. le)

The original slab and topping were buried under a second slab, topping, and pavers.

I noticed that too but the pool and Jacuzzi are different on the prints I have and there may be differences in the slabs here. Your slab #1 may be the structural slab and #2 may be the topping slab with waterproofing, sand and tiles on top. You are right that only part of the slabs punched through column 37.

Guys here is a closer zoom-in I made, so it looks like we have our 9 1/2" slab, but then looks like we have about 4" of additional slab on top, and then about 2" of sand/mortar bed, then 1 1/4" thick pavers. Should be concerned about his 4" slab? This is the first time we have seen this as it is not in the plans.
.
.

No, I think I was looking at the thick reinforcement concrete for the pool corbel in that previous picture. This newer mockup here shows the pool deck. But the pool deck only looks to be 6", not 9 1/2". I forget which page on the floorplan shows pool slab thickness, but I thought it is supposed to be more than 6".

..

Perhaps the garage video has some insight on this? If the upper slab is the deck slab as we've been led to believe, and the lower slab is pool zone reinforcement, there would have to be a step in the underside.

It seems odd that the column slab reinforcement did not tie into the upper deck slab, if that's what it is.

I've just thrown this out there without any research but it seems odd. Maybe there is an explaination.

Thanks all.

Yes, it looks to me like they did not pour all the concrete at once. Instead, it appears there is a cold joint where that thicker reinforcement part of the concrete on the left of the photo lines up underneath to the pool deck, which we still don't have a confirmation on the thickness, but you can see a definite line between the two which says to me they did this in 2 separate time spaced pours. Not sure if that is a problem or not. there may also be another set of "as-built" plans by the contractor to tell the framing plan for this extra thick concrete that we don't see in any of the drawings.

I made a screenshot of the garage video of space #37. A nice car parked there. Can't tell anything through all the pipes
.
.

The columns in the garage are 12"x12". That can be used as a reference to help determine the other dimensions.

Morabito only shows the 9.5 inch slab and pavers with no topping here: (page 24 of preliminary-review-plans-for-40-year-re-certification). So it seems they failed to do enough research on the existing structure. Of course we don't have any details of how this area was originally built or designed either and the topping may have been thinned in places to provide slope for drainage for the pool.
This could explain why they wanted confirmation of slab thickness at the pavilion location and why they failed to understand the importance of drop panels in more locations than their preliminary plans show.
They may have some serious liability unless they can claim all this was outside their work scope or more revisions were coming.

HEY JEFF, Perhaps you didn't see SFCharlie's request for the URL to "over 100 photos shot on the condo collapse site a few days ago"

https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/v1632584321/tips/Pool_area--preliminary-review-plans-for-40-year-re-certification_eh93up.pdf

From 9:30 in Jeff's video above, if the column is 12 inches square, then the top slab appears to be about 6 inches thick, with the sand layer above it about 2 inches thick. This is also using Jeff's earlier post ("Guys here is a closer zoom-in I made...") to judge that the top slab is about 6 inches thick. Towards the left of the shot, the two slabs are shown close together, and the lower slab also appears to be about 6 inches thick, with the layer above it also about 2 inches thick. This would make the total thickness about 16 inches thick, not counting the tiles.

Edit: Perhaps the line part way up the bottom layer is not a new layer, but just where the rebar was. So perhaps the bottom layer is all one layer, about 8 or so inches thick.

Quote (sgw1009)

The columns in the garage are 12"x12".

The column schedule does not show any 12"x12" columns. It could be 12"x16" but I can't find a clear confirmation of what size is called out for this location. Can you point to it?
As-builts have not been found and I wouldn't trust them anyway. Field confirmation is the only way to know for sure.
The collapse didn't begin here so I'm not really understanding where this discussion is going.

Here is another long shot cross section of the pool deck near spot 37. It gives a little better view of the comparative thicknesses of the deck layers. This is from Jeff's video at 10:49.

Guys from Because Surfside sent me the photos, they obtained them through a Freedom Of Information Act request from the Town of Surfside, and I used them to make the video.

Here is a closeup of the image I posted earlier. It is zoomed in to the corner that shows a good view from afar of the layers of slab. And a reference for comparison, the Yodack traffic barriers right above that area are 32" tall and 6 feet long.

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Guys from Because Surfside sent me the photos, they obtained them through a Freedom Of Information Act request from the Town of Surfside, and I used them to make the video.

Will you zip up the originals and post them here?

Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)24 Sep 21 17:48)

There are over 100 photos shot on the condo collapse site a few days ago

Yes Jeff,
I understand that you may wish to wait until you have posted your next video, but the images need to be archived here, so we can zoom in and look for tar kettles, cranes, washing machines, AC's, barbells from the gym, secret spy drone wreckage, Godzilla footprints, and heavens know what else.
All kidding aside, please, in good time, attach a zip file here.
Thanks

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

We know about the topping slab from the core samples, don't we? Interesting that it appears the (non-structural) topping slab survived for a few feet over that column '37' when the structural slab puncture sheared though.

That isn't the initial failure area but it's interesting how there seems to be very little rebar in that deck slab at all. The deck didn't fail, but the lack of deck rebar running through the columns would make the joints with the columns less able to resist the shear. That lines up with what we've seen in earlier threads.

That whole L/M 11.1 area of interest has already been cleared down by the point these pics are taken so I'm not sure we can really see anything new. It's interesting how there seems to be one column in the 9.1 line (L? I think?) which has been cut off at ground level rather than the 2-3' of rebar that's left on all the others.

Quote (Red Corona 25 Sep 21 20:42)

It's interesting how there seems to be one column in the 9.1 line (L? I think?) which has been cut off at ground level rather than the 2-3' of rebar that's left on all the others.

This is also where I believe the initial failure began.
A slow compression failure beginning 22 hours earlier at this column may have gone unnoticed and would shift it's load to surrounding columns and fit the timeline of the first sounds of failure. The column wouldn't deform much because the rest of the structure is stiff enough to support it for a while. Then as the burden shifted through the pool deck to M-11.1 and L-11.1 columns (as well as all other adjacent columns) they would be next in line and fail by punching shear as the failure began to speed up. Then it's dominoes.
I think it is possible that M11.1 punched through the bottom of the planter above it and the mud from a weeks worth of rain coated the column and debris, adding to the confusion of what we see in the Tik-Toc video.

Punch holes in my theory. That's why I posted it.

OK Guys, Use this link to all the photos I used in my video, that we've been referencing that I posted above, for the last 2 days.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0gDmnl4AW...

I'm sure Kai will be by momentarily to steal them and continue to claim everyone is stealing his ideas, he has a knack for grabbing other people's videos, showing it on his channel under the phony guise of critiquing/commenting on them, he's trying to game Youtube's algorithm by putting these high traffic videos from other channels on his. But all he does is criticize and condemn people in his videos. He even said Allyn Killsheimer is a liar and called him names, and says he does not know anything. He also lied and said the security guard's story is made up, that she never rescued anyone. He never watched the police bodycam video I posted, showing the arriving officers found her in the collapsed pool deck escorting out an elderly lady, she climbed herself up from the pool deck.

Jeff
Thanks!

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Interesting collection of concrete pieces in images 328, 330, 331, and 332 of Jeff's Google Drive photos. The pieces on the left are marked in blue, and the pieces on the right are marked in red. One of the red pieces is also marked "K13.1". What could be the significance of these pieces, and why are some red and some blue? The pieces are resting near the vestibule, and for certain column K13.1 was not originally located near the vestibule. So that indicates that these pieces were from somewhere else in the building (garage?) and were moved to that location for storage.

sgw1009

I think what's marked in Red are the pieces affected by the demolition and the Blue are from the original collapse.

K13.1 would be a parking plaza column, one of the ones that survived and punched through the deck I think. But I don't think it was that shape so I'm not sure that marking means what we think it does.

Someone suggested in a previous picture round that red is what they're using to mark things of interest.

> @Nukeman This is also where I believe the initial failure began.
A slow compression failure beginning 22 hours earlier at this column may have gone unnoticed and would shift it's load to surrounding columns and fit the timeline of the first sounds of failure.

Yeah I think we had this conversation on about page 5, it seems unlikely to me that the roof work is coincidentally the day before everything fell down, and something about that caused one of the columns (I was thinking M 9.1, but actually from the way the facade falls, L failing first makes more sense) to deform and detach the beam keeping the pool deck from punching through. It's hard to see what exactly would cause that but if the concrete was as poor quality as it seems to have been then maybe it was just the roof equipment was the incremental extra load needed to push it over the edge.

Are we to just assume the underground diesel tank(s) were unaffected by the collapse?
I'd like to see close up pictures of the basin perimeter, especially the Northern side.

Quote (Optical98)

Are we to just assume the underground diesel tank(s) were unaffected by the collapse?

I think it is safe to assume that it got squished in the collapse, just like all the gas and diesel fuel tanks on all the cars in the parking level (except the Tesla). That means that it may (or mat not) have leaked its contents into the water that the firemen and rescuers were wading in. There was far more gas, oil, Diesel, transmission fluid and everything else leaked from all those cars than from that one generator tank.



Here's a picture for you.
All of the water that they have been pumping out of the big hole needs to be treated before it can leave the site. That big yellow box in the upper right corner of the picture is a hydraulic pump. Two small hoses go from there to drive the big sump pump behind the dude that is standing there. The black pump discharge hose goes to the blue dumpster looking thing on the left. It filters out debris and skims all the oil, diesel, and other petroleum products and discharges the cleaned up water out of its hose on the left. At that point it may be clean enough to dump into the nearest sewer so the water treatment plant can deal with it or to a tanker truck to be hauled off for further treatment.

Nukeman948

Thank you for the picture and details on the filtering process, that was informative!

Supposedly it was a 1000 gallon tank, that's a lot of diesel fuel... but from the plans it should be under the foundation, under the ramp area - or somewhere with a manhole cover?



^^ This may be for the North Tower, the bottom right corner is too faded to tell. But I know I saw a similar layout for the South Tower.

Quote (Optical98)

Supposedly it was a 1000 gallon tank, that's a lot of diesel fuel... but from the plans it should be under the foundation, under the ramp area - or somewhere with a manhole cover?

All of these drawings are horrible.
Yes, the North tower shows it below the sidewalk at the ramp to the garage with a manhole access. Should be plenty of room here. Google earth shows that is a lie. No manhole.

None of the drawings even hint at an elevation. Under the slab makes maintenance or replacement very difficult if not impossible.
Morabito shows the South tower Diesel tank outside of the building just a bit West of the ramp. It might just sit on top of the slab here but that would be dumb. It is on the landscaping drawings so I doubt it is below the parking level slab, therefore it must be just below the parking level ceiling (or maybe on the floor?). This would be above a couple of parking spots but just eyeballing the drawings to get some "rough" dimensions I get about 6'x13' or maybe 5'x12'. To get 1000 gallons that would require a tank 29 inches or 38 inches deep. There is just not enough headroom for a tank above these parking spaces and park cars here too. So by deduction, the only answer left is... no idea. They just lost two parking spaces and the tank got squished in any likely location.

Anyway, the 500 gallon transformer tank is shown on the parking level in the unused corner (maybe?) but it could have been pumped out before the implosion if they thought that was needed.

Installed in 1993, there was an above ground 1000gal diesel storage tank installed on a concrete slab, hidden away behind hedges. Original tank and fill port were left and not removed if I am not mistaken.

Edit: Thar she blows.

Demented

Good find! What a terrible location, right by the garage entrance. You can see the black pipe going up the wall and into the generator/pump room too.

There was a time early on that I hadn't realized there were actually parking spaces directly beneath the perimeter of the building...it could be safe to assume that this tank ended up in the garage and yeah most likely "smushed" and carted away with the debris.

Y'all know I've been curious about the rooms directly above the ramp area...(and all combustible items not car related). My apologies for more crappy pics, hopefully you can make out what I'm pointing to. There was fire/burning there at the area directly beneath the generator room, this area is above the cars and the scorch marks are not climbing the wall, which would indicate they came from above or directly there.


Could this snip be the other side of that wall, it is marked in blue and so it was taken to the NIST area. Also curious what that orange line is in front of him.

Quote (Optical98)

There was fire/burning there at the area directly beneath the generator room, this area is above the cars and the scorch marks are not climbing the wall, which would indicate they came from above or directly there.

The drawings show a 25 gallon day tank for the generator so there was some fuel in there.
The electrical riser diagram shows the 60hp, 170 amp fire pump had a transfer switch to use either generator power or use a feed straight from the transformer. There was a circuit breaker set at 1000 amps next to the transfer switch but the wires that come from the transformer were only rated for 225 amps. The reasoning is that you want the fire pump to be able to run no matter how bad the fire gets. In this case the transformer was not within the initial collapse so it could have continued to feed power to that room. If damaged wires were shorted with only the impedance of the circuit to limit current until the wires melted or the primary fuses blew, you could get a little bit of scorching in there and maybe ignite a squished day tank.
Now the markings on the concrete you circled look like they could be electrical flash marks on the left side, but on the right side they look more like stains from a day tank that has been leaking fuel for years.


The wires w/red stripes are 26kv that fed the transformer, and one of the other sets of wires likely fed the transfer switch. One set to feed a house panel in that room too. I'm surprised these are PVC conduits and not encased in concrete. (on closer look there may have been some type of fire proofing over them)

It's in one of the Morabito documents somewhere, but a picture of the rusted day tank does exist.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

I am thinking that under that 37 column, the stresses are different. Like the pool itself is strongly connected to the foundation. So as the pool deck is failing, the concrete slab wants to fall, but its connections near to the pool are ripping apart due to the solid connection with the pool to foundation.

Maybe there are some cold joints to the pool? Because a large pool structure might be poured first before the actual pool deck? The order that things are poured in is vital in determining where a cold joint would be.

You would pour a pools bottom right? Then come up the walls of the pool? Then at the end you are doing the pool deck, then the topping slab?

Either way, column 37 seems to be very close to the pool like the pool deck cannot rely on its connection with the pool structure? One parking space between them?

I am thinking the weak spot in the pool deck is somewhere between pool and 37 column?

As for the topping, it didn't puncture at 37, but the rest of the slab did. Whether the rebar was strong enough is a different question. I will bet that there are few columns that can withstand a progressive collapse of pool deck.

Most of the rebar might have been fine under normal circumstances, but in hindsight of a progressive collapse, not.

The answer? Many parking structures have failed from airborne sea salt corrosion. This is not anything new. Take a look at new parking structures with those gigantic round columns. Tiny columns on parking garages are a bad idea.

Nukeman

Thank you, that was a very in depth post, Electrical issues are pretty much outside my wheelhouse, but I think I understand.

That area being right up against the eastern shear wall... do you think that could have attributed to the failure of it. I mean it was def undersized...may not have been able to hold regardless, but I have wondered why it failed so quickly.

I was looking at this video again, the lights are on in that unit on the 2nd floor, that's Unit 202 right?
Unit 202 was supposedly empty. Actually 201, 202 and 203 were empty.

MaudSTL, do you have any further info on those units?

Quote (Optical98)

Electrical issues are pretty much outside my wheelhouse, but I think I understand.
That area being right up against the eastern shear wall... do you think that could have attributed to the failure of it.

Electrical has been my life. Structural, not so much.

We have all watched that first security cam video hundreds of times. Watch it again but concentrate on the top edge of the East portion that fell last. Just as the center portion hit the ground the top of the East portion suddenly moved East about 5 feet very fast and twisted. Think about all those columns cracking as that happened and the rebar stretching like a rubber-band. And then it started moving like a pendulum to the West very slowly, but never stopping until its momentum and weight overcame those fractured columns.
If we believe this building was so compromised by design errors, construction flaws, and neglected or shoddy maintenance to the point the first failure happened spontaneously, then it wouldn't matter if the generator room was against the shear wall or not. It was a miracle the East side stayed up so long.

Quote (Optical98)

MaudSTL, do you have any further info on those units?

I don’t track units, but I did add this Miami Herald piece to the timeline data tab because it has a good floor by floor graphic telling which units were and were not occupied. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/m...

Optical98 - Is the gate open in that picture?

MaudSTL

Thank you, that does verify those units were supposed to be empty, however there are lights on in Unit 202 right before the collapse. I'm going to have to assume the MDPD is aware of this.

Demented

Where were you finding Unit Permits for renovations? I wonder if Sara Nir was hearing Work being done that evening?

Js5180

No, the gate is not open, that pic is the beginning of a tiktok video that was being made 7 minutes before the collapse.

Quote (Optical98)

...those units were supposed to be empty, however there are lights on in Unit 202 right before the collapse. I'm going to have to assume the MDPD is aware of this.

There could be a couple very innocent reasons for that light being on:

1. A real estate agent was showing that unit in the daytime and didn't realize a light got left on.

2. The client that was looking at the unit was named Tom Bodett.

C. A young, handsome Youtube videographer, with a gravely voice, desperate for a story to make himself rich and famous, decided to supplement his meager income by selling used Diesel fuel on the black market. With the help of an underpaid security guard, he broke into the condo above the generator room and began drilling through the floor, 22 hours before the collapse, directly above the day tank. Realizing he couldn't siphon up hill he decided to drill back down so he could siphon directly to his getaway car parked carelessly by column 37. Unfortunately, with a whirring drilling sound, he drilled into the top of the transfer switch hitting the unfused wires and causing him to jump back and hit his head on the shear wall with enough force to shake the building, knocking the tar kettle off the roof which then crashed through the pool deck. Using Youtube's algorithms to understand his mistake he tried to back the drill out but this caused a huge electrical explosion that reflected off the shear wall and focused its energy on the opposite side of the building starting the main collapse. The only way this evil doer could have escaped is to dress up as an elderly lady and be escorted out by Shamoka herself. I just hope that those mean "Youtube Pirates" give me all the credit I deserve for this "Exclusive" story.

@Optical98
Surfside's file release and FOIA requests.

Night work did happen often at CTS, There were 0 requests or notices for night work that night.

That rabbit hole is empty.

Unit 202 had just been purchased April 2020. I see no record of it being put back on the market
It's a really nice unit, however the kitchen needed a huge update.

https://www.redfin.com/FL/Surfside/8777-Collins-Av...

Demented,

We both know there was often WWOP done there. Rabbit Hole open.

Nukeman,

Could be many explanations... but it should be looked into regardless as the site is a CRIME SCENE?

Update: The family lives in NJ, they own 202 and use it as a vacation home. They had actually vacationed in Surfside in April, there are pics on their IG of their little boy standing on that balcony and saying how lucky they were.

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)

I was looking at this video again, the lights are on in that unit on the 2nd floor, that's Unit 202 right?
Unit 202 was supposedly empty.

We know that another unit had a motion activated camera. It's entirely possible 202 had lights set up to come on with a timer as a security measure.

Debirlfan and Nukeman,

Y'all need to add evidence of your varying "theories"...I provided evidence of a light being on at 1:00 am in a unit that should have been empty. This unit being directly above the generator room and ramp area, is of warranted interest in this investigation.

Prove me wrong..

That'd be our good friend Mr. Reflecto playing games with us. Or a ceiling mounted light fixture in the dining room, but I'm thinking more some angry turtle police, a badly aimed light pole thanks to some tilting, and a reflection.



If you want a rabbit hole to find your way down, I'd suggest looking around the K13.1 area and the concrete/pool make-over work done, as well as the parameter wall work. 2002-2006ish.

Demented

No, I don't think so.

Here's the video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK-Fq9tKrrQ

The original was a few seconds longer, but I can't find it.

This is another view of the scorched wall before they removed it, and as you can see..it looks scorched all the way across that generator room floor. That rebar is hanging down...not sticking up like we see elsewhere.

The original https://www.tiktok.com/@adrianitacastillero/video/...

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Also, nah man or manette, reflection.




Edit: Now that I've looked at this light pole enough, it's pissing me off. Did Surfside public works do this or was the ACOE responsible for placing this when the beach access road was paved? It's crooked as all hell.

Edit again. See. Man, this irks me.
All nice and good looking here. And then

Bam, Ray Charles even inspected this one himself.

Demented

There are many pics of remaining building that night, none of them reflect that way. Daytime reflections are not a good comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TspNufw2TCQ

Yeah but mirror tinted windows do what mirror tinted windows do, and that's act like mirrors, and blind the hell outa ya if you look at the sun just right. Reflections elsewhere will show differently elsewhere on the building. That particular spot and reflection is unique to that location. It does look like a light was on, I agree, but that's also right damn where the reflection of a street light would be. There's no way a cell phone camera is seeing a light on inside a unit with reflective coated or tinted windows, with the reflection of a street light being in a similar location.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

I can't tell any more what's a serious post in this thread ... but that definitely looks like the lights are on to me. But it's reasonable to assume they have some kind of automatic lighting. Perhaps it was even triggered by the noise or vibration of the deck collapsing.

Red Corona

Owners knew there were security cameras all around that building and a security guard as well. Besides Unit 711, I've seen no evidence or reason for owners to have their lights come on in a condo they're not staying in.
I can't prove anyone was in there, but I hope the authorities will have checked into it...a simple call to the owner is all it would take.

Quote (Optical98)

Debirlfan and Nukeman,

Y'all need to add evidence of your varying "theories"...I provided evidence of a light being on at 1:00 am in a unit that should have been empty. This unit being directly above the generator room and ramp area, is of warranted interest in this investigation.

What? That is not how the world works.
You implied something was nefarious about a light being on but never explained what could have been illegal about it. You're asking us to prove a negative? Seriously? All I'm saying is there is no evidence of a crime and the burden of proof is YOURS. We are just pointing out that there are simple explanations that don't point to a crime. My post also included some humor and sarcasm. You made the claim. I have no theories.

At first I agreed with you that there was a light on but now that I've seen what Demented posted, I can see it could have been a reflection. The burden of proof is totally in your court. Explain the sequence of events from a light to how this building ended up in a heap. How do you think the rebar got bent down and what does it prove? Do you think there was a fire before the collapse? Do you know how long it takes for a fire to weaken a reinforced concrete structure?

Can jet fuel melt steel beams?

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Quote (Optical98)

I've seen no evidence or reason for owners to have their lights come on in a condo they're not staying in.

My parents had a timer on a living room light back in the '70s. It cuts down on crime by making it look like someone is home. Is that a hard concept for you?

Edit: You say there were security cameras? So the only people there were people that live there, so it was an inside job?

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Nukeman,

Do you think the authorities would spend hours looking up photos of a street light and debating this vs calling the owner and simply asking them about it?
They don't need me to claim anything, I can go no further than I have.
I think that is a location of concern for the many reasons I've already mentioned and I feel it's not an overreach to investigate whether someone was in that unit or not. Sara Nir thought she heard knocking somewhere above her, 202 isn't far from her... 202s kitchen wall with the stove is the eastern shear wall btw.

You're the great story créatif on here, not me.. I do enjoy them btw, I've chuckled at much of your humor ^^

Quote (Optical98)

They don't need me to claim anything...

My humor is done.
You made claims here, not to the authorities.
On this forum.
Repeatedly.
But never posted any details of what you keep alluding to.
Back up your claims.

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Quote:

lights v reflections, fires etc

The light is on, in my view. Yes, the wall is bathed in yellow glow from the street light and that room's window appears similarly bathed, but the adjacent one above is not. If the glow from the streetlight was the source I think it would show in the other windows, at least dimly.

In any case- That room is a long way from where that video shows collapsed pool deck (+ any number of interesting objects!). The pool deck has already collapsed several columns, the ramp and several car-spaces deeper into the parking area than this room. This video is 7 minutes before the general collapse of the first portion of CTS. What is supposed to be going on in this room that has (A) already collapsed a pool deck on the other side of the property and then (B) 7 minutes later initiates a building collapse in different part of the tower?

Nukeman,

My claim...I never made a claim. I said there's a light on in unit 202, it's supposed to be empty.
The reason I was even looking at that video again was to look closer at the vents and the tank areas to see if there may have been smoke ...You know, I was looking at the scorched wall, remember?

There was no smoke apparent in that video. Demented and I both looked for permits for that unit and found none.
Though they are adding more documents and files to that site everyday...new ones posted even today.

So I can't prove anything ok? Idk why this angers you so much, you want me to give you a hypothesis?
I like it better when I add a picture and ask questions and you tell me about how the electrical faults and wires are supposed to work and the probabilities therein.

Because I don't think many of us on here have dealt with deconstructing a building collapse of this magnitude before and we can only get so far with any theory atm.

So Ima add another picture nao -


Just to note they took a lot of samples of that wall...no claim at all...

Quote (Optical98)

I never made a claim.
I think that is a location of concern for the many reasons I've already mentioned...

What angers me is dishonesty.
We all know that there were several fires after the collapse and you keep showing pictures of evidence of the fires that happened after the fact. But for many threads here you have been bringing up "locations of concern for the many reasons I've already mentioned" and dropping hints that you think there was a fire before the collapse. You are searching for signs of smoke and anything else you can find to show there was a fire before the collapse. THAT IS YOUR CLAIM. Now you pretend to be just asking questions and playing all innocent like.
You have no shame.
You have no honor.
You won't admit that a fire in a generator room with 4 sprinkler heads would have never gotten so out of hand to cause this collapse.
And yet you insist on clogging up this thread with constant nonsense.
You can stick your pictures up your keyboard.

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@Optical98. They only released yet more copies of the original plans for the building a couple of days ago.
I do wish that were a light on inside, but I don't believe so. There's nothing here. Just a street light.


What if the sounds described as construction noises ands drilling was just the backup generator running and making an awful racket? We know at least one unit was experiencing an unexplained power outage.
That's at least more likely than midnight demo work of an out of date kitchen in a unit far away from the initial collapse of the deck we see past the unit in the same video that supposedly shows a light on.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Demented)

…sounds described as construction noises ands drilling…

Before we go back down this rabbit hole again, I would just like to point out that no collapse witness described having heard drilling sounds before the building collapsed. The Nirs in 111, however, did describe hearing sounds that they assumed to be construction, as in "knocking" (like hanging pictures) and a "smash" (like a wall collapsed.)

>>>>>>Edit:
In an effort to help this group avoid rehashing key witness statements, I decided to create a new reference in the Witness Timeline. It is a new swimlane diagram that highlights what witnesses heard in blue, and what they saw in red. It includes the observations of:

• Elena Blasser, deceased, 1211
• Eric and Tamar Zion, 508
• The Nirs, 111
• Shamoka Furman, lobby
• Nico Vazquez and Gimena Accardi, elevator
• Ileana Monteagudo, 611
• Adriana Sarmiento, BlueGreen Resort
• Rosie Santana's Ring Camera, 711
• Angela and Deven Gonzalez, 904

I had to leave one swimlane off the diagram because I am making diagrams with a free version of a web-based product called LucidChart, and they limit the number of objects allowed per diagram. I ran out of objects (didn't even have one to make a Legend!) and had to make a call on what to leave out. I decided to leave out a deceased witness whose observations were duplicated by survivor observations. So I left off the late Cassondra Stratton from 410, who called and told her husband that the building was shaking and the pool deck had sunk in.

For your convenience, here is the swimlane diagram as a stand-alone JPEG.

The purpose of the Witness Timeline is to organize witness observations in an appropriate sequence for the convenience of engineers looking at contributing factors. Whatever factors contributed to the building collapse need to have occurred in a sequence that also correlates with what witnesses experienced.

Quote (Demented)

What if the sounds described as construction noises and drilling was just the backup generator running and making an awful racket?

A good thought process, but not likely.
It was an emergency generator not a back up generator. Why is that an important distinction? A backup generator may be expected to supply power to the whole building, including individual condo units. An emergency generator only supplies power to the emergency circuits. In this building that would be:
* One elevator.
* The fire pump Or the domestic water pump but not both.
* All the lights in the driveways of the parking level but not over the parking spaces.
* About 30% of the lights in the Porte Cochere.
* About 50% of the corridor lights.
* Stairways, exit signs, security and fire alarms.
* General access bathrooms, offices and similar rooms.
* Minimum lighting levels for rec room, gym, sauna, and sitting area.
* Anything I may have missed on this list.
Basically, just enough power to keep the occupants safe while they evacuate the building.
No power was available to individual condo units, HVAC units, or night construction crews.
Most places test run their generator periodically, once a month or so, but not normally at night.


Edit, for more better wording, 'cause some guys don't seem to get it:
A backup generator large enough to power that whole building for a storm outage would be the size of a locomotive. Then to power each unit individually on demand you would need to duplicate the existing power system of the building with a 3000 Amp bus to feed 12 floors and have a transfer switch and metering for each unit. By my calculations the existing small generator costs around $800 a day just for fuel, then add oil changes and maintenance costs for a guy that is too stupid to pay his bills? Ain't nobody got time for that, nor the money. They could use smaller generators, like one per floor, or one per unit. What a maintenance clusterfudge that would be. It'd be more betterer to go down to Homie Despot and get the Youtuber's discount for 136 homeowners models and chain them out on the balconys, Ghetto-R-Us style. Don't forget to pick up a suicide cord while you are there and skip the inspections. Are ya picking up what I'm layin' down yet?
The generator was not running. Period.

Whatever.



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Poor wording on my part. Emergency generator is what I meant.

Either way, there's nothing to see with 202 or that reflection.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)
)

I can't prove anyone was in there, but I hope the authorities will have checked into it...a simple call to the owner is all it would take.

Personally, I doubt if anyone was in there and I think there are several simple explanations for the apparent light, but....

IF someone was in there doing unapproved work, then:
1. They got out before the collapse (no extra bodies found.)
2. Homeowners would be unlikely to admit it (who's going to admit they're responsible for the collapse?)

If a light had been on in 202, the drapes would be evenly lit, unless the lamp was immediately behind the drapes, which does not appear to be the case. However, the "light" is bright in the the center, and dims as the distance from the center increases, which leads me to believe that we are seeing a reflection, and not a light inside of 202.

Honestly, I would hate living in an apartment just above a car driveway. I might even put extreme window tinting in or reflect car head lights.

Did anyone ever find grade marks on photos of the column steel?

I can’t find any indication of 60 grade steel as specified in the drawings.

Sorry if I missed it.

Mojojohn

Quote (MOJOJOHN)

Did anyone ever find grade marks on photos of the column steel?

That's a mighty fine question you have there. Mighty fine indeed. Thanks for steering us back on track.

Mr. Kilsheimer's pics are probably the best we have.
See here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-0gDmnl4AW...

I don't know enough about the markings to be certain but there may be a few issues here.

Image 307, looks like o 11 n or n 11 o and no other marks that are legible.


Image 292 confirms 307.


Image 280 is... Ohh... Hmmmm...Looks like someone used a grinder to delete some of the information here. You can check out the Grinder website if you're into that.

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New billet #11 grade 40 or 50 mild steel, most likely grade 40.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

That's O - 11 - N.

This would indicate Type N, Size #11, manufactured by Marion Steel in Marion, OH. Note that Marion steel is part of Nucor now, but was not in 1981.

Type N is an obsolete standard. Previous versions of ASTM A 615 captured two types of billet steel for use in the manufacturing of concrete reinforcement. Type S was a set of more stringent supplementary requirements, type N was the 'minimum'. At some point, Type S was rolled into the main spec, and the supplementary requirements were struck from the standard. Type N went away as a designation. I don't know exactly when this happened but I believe it was some time in the 80s.

1984.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

My concern is that the time of instruction Champlain Towers South both 40 grade and 60 grade steel was available and commonly used.

Threshold inspection did not exist yet and the contractor sometimes bought 40 grade steel because it was cheaper.

Not saying it happened here , I would just like to see a grade mark indicating 60 grade steel on a column bar so that potential problem could be eliminated.

Regards,

Mojojohn

The pictures from Kilsheimer are not the best, but still good enough to kinda make out N 11 0 on a few more bars. There's more grinding marks I've seen but nothing clear enough to say it's numbers ground off. There does appear to be a lot of single grade lines extending 5 spaces beyond the blurry letters/numbers. Even that ground off section above.

So, grade 400?


Also looking down the N columns for example, I'm still seeing the #11 bars. Shouldn't these be #7's?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote (MOJOJOHN)

I would just like to see a grade mark indicating 60 grade steel on a column bar so that potential problem could be eliminated.

The only way to totally eliminate that possibility is to examine every single piece of rebar. What we have seen doesn't look good.
Unless we have an NIST double agent lurking on this site that is willing to divulge their knowledge upon us we will have to wait for the official release of info and hope it gives the details we are looking for.

I've worked for some pretty shady contractors who had a lot of leftover materials from previous jobs laying around their yard. They send it out and ask the crew if they can mix it in with the correct stuff so it might not get seen by the inspector. Inspector looks real close at the first two columns and gives a quick glance at the rest if he has time. Once he makes it a pattern of what he looks at it's pretty easy for some guys to figure out where they could hide stuff and play dumb if he found it. (I usually didn't have to play dumb, but I did throw a lot of that leftover junk in the dumpster) No idea what could have happened in Florida around 1980.

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If this proposal in the Sun Sentinel goes through, there’s going to be a lot of work for structural engineers in Florida.

“Florida should immediately require every condominium association and board, both those currently in existence and any formed in the future, and including developer-controlled condominium associations and boards, to conduct a structural [top to below ground] engineering review combined with an asset reserve study prepared by a licensed, insured and bonded professional qualified and experienced in such matters.”

After the studies, they next propose state funding to soften the blow to the values of the condos during the proposed transition period.

A plan for post-Surfside condo law reform | Opinion

There's a plan!

Wasn't Breiterman just such a guy?



spsalso


PS: I'm glad they pointed out that it should actually encompass the entire building. There are those who might not think of that.

And a lot of work for lawyers when the reviews find unsatisfactory conditions and lots of money required to reinstate.

Geez!? I don't know why anybody would be cynical of Florida politics and developers and the legal profession?

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

FBPE newsletter
Rule 61G15-19.001(6) and (6)(a), Florida Administrative Code, Grounds for Disciplinary Procedures, says:

(6) A professional engineer shall not commit misconduct in the practice of engineering. Misconduct in the practice of engineering as set forth in Section 471.033(1)(g), Florida Statutes, shall include, but not be limited to:

Expressing an opinion publicly on an engineering subject without being informed as to the facts relating thereto and being competent to form a sound opinion thereupon.

Unfortunately, there are sometimes tragedies that occur and make local, national, and even international news, such as the collapse of the Florida International University pedestrian bridge in 2018 or the collapse of the Champlain Towers in Surfside this year.
In the wake of these events, you may have seen people posting things on social media about these tragedies, giving what seems to be a technical-sounding engineering opinion for the cause of these structural collapses. You may have even participated in the discussion and gone back and forth about the hows and whys. All the while, you say something about being an engineer or just forget that your profile clearly identifies you as a Professional Engineer.

If the opinion you made is engineering-related and is made without being informed of the facts, or if you do not have the expertise in this subject to make a sound opinion, you have committed misconduct in the practice of engineering by Florida law and are subject to discipline.

The Board takes this very seriously and has previously and recently disciplined engineers for committing misconduct in this manner.

The board can sit on a fat one.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

If, on the other hand, you are simply incompetent or sleazy, the Board will certainly be understanding of your plight and wish you well.



spsalso

Here's the NYT article from 9/22. Just basically a list of contributing factors.


Edit: Here's the link. Double click the image in the tweet for a more readable quality. I think this graphic is just the paper version of the September 1st article.
https://twitter.com/singhvianjali/status/144072407...

> All the while, you say something about being an engineer or just forget that your profile clearly identifies you as a Professional Engineer.

Good thing I'm not a professional engineer eh :)

I'm still interested in the unusual shape of the punching shear breaks and if I get around to it I will make a longer post with some (non professional, suck it Florida engineering board) opinions. Related to that, I think someone posted a document early saying how the pouring of the columns and the slab above worked. I'm interested as to whether the column was built first and the slab then poured around it (so there's a vertical joint around the column) or if column + slab above was all done at once.

The board takes this very seriously, but they are strangely quiet... same for California, it seems.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

Normal practice is to pour the Column first, stopping the pour an inch or so below the deck form. The column will shrink a little as the slab is prepared over the next few days.

If you pour the slab and column at the same time, you risk a crack at the top of the column when column shrinking occurs and downward movement of the slab is restrained by the shores.


Shear calculations consider the column support size and shape as well as the deck thickness and the cold joint does not play into it.

Normal failure will leave pieces of the slabs at the top. Failure straight down without leaving stubs from the slab sticking out is very unusual.

As to the Florida board, I doubt they would take offense to unofficial posts on a social media site for engineers. It is not a report for the Public.

Regards,

mojojohn

Red... columns and slabs often have different concrete strengths and other properties.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

I'm surprised no-one in the color-glossy-infogram and sexy-3D-animation biz has picked up on the sub-spec rebar yet. Has anyone found a 60 grade rebar marking in any pic?

I uploaded my latest video last night which talks about how much water we've noticed pooling on the roof of both Champlain Towers South and North buildings a year ago shown on drone flyovers on dry days.

https://youtu.be/cNKMe4S0A2M

.
.

Quote (AusG)

I'm surprised no-one in the color-glossy-infogram and sexy-3D-animation biz has picked up on the sub-spec rebar yet. Has anyone found a 60 grade rebar marking in any pic?

Is Gr 60 what was required/specified? Most of the bar in the images above appears to be grade 50. Although the pics aren't stellar.

> Normal failure will leave pieces of the slabs at the top. Failure straight down without leaving stubs from the slab sticking out is very unusual.

Yeah, that's why it's so interesting. It's not even straight down, the columns have been 'pinched' around the failure point. I feel like this has some interesting things to say about the material properties (rebar placement as well) there but I want to check I am not a total idiot before going into that :)

> Normal practice is to pour the Column first, stopping the pour an inch or so below the deck form. The column will shrink a little as the slab is prepared over the next few days.

The slab is then a complete, unbroken surface, right? There is no column of concrete going 'through' the slab (though there is rebar doing that if there will be another column above the slab - not true on the pool deck in this case)? That's my understanding from previous posts as well.



Something like this. Rebar in the slab optional if you're in Florida in the 1980s ...

The one thing I've always wondered about when they're pouring concrete for the columns if they stop at the end of their pour and I don't know how long they wait maybe a day or two? What do they do about cold joints forming? Are they required to use any kind of primer in between or bonding agent or anything like that? That's what I've always worried about is how do you continue that column all the way up as one homogeneous material?

Red corona

Your understanding is correct.

Jeff

No primer or bonding agent.Does act monolithic due to steel passing through joint.

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

What do they do about cold joints forming?

There are cold joints for sure; typically the term 'construction joint' is used, as they are planned. 'Cold joint' implies a joint between pours that should be monolithic and only exists because someone screwed up.

All construction joints will have steel passing across them and will usually be chipped or roughened for mechanical engagement between poured sections.

Quote (Red Corona)

Yeah, that's why it's so interesting. It's not even straight down, the columns have been 'pinched' around the failure point. I feel like this has some interesting things to say about the material properties (rebar placement as well) there but I want to check I am not a total idiot before going into that :)

I'm not so sure that it's a huge indicator.

A single punching shear failure in a big matrix of columns will have widespread effects- namely the doubling of the unsupported length of the slab between columns surrounding the failure. The slab may then fail in a few different modes, depending. If the slab cross section is strong enough to stay standing across the new unsupported length, you might see punching shear on surrounding columns, too. If it isn't strong enough to self-support across the new length, however, the slab at adjacent column/slab nodes might fail in bending, or in tension. It may only take one punching shear failure (ie punching shear failure at a single node in the matrix) to induce complete failure of the slab, but that doesn't mean every node is going to fail in shear. In order to really know, you'd need pictures of EVERY column/slab node to figure out how they each failed. We only have a few.

Not saying you're wrong.. just saying that IMHO we are short on information to support a big conclusion from the fact that a few nodes didn't fail in a fashion we normally associate with regular punching shear.

@Reverse_Bias I cannot find that NYT article for the life of me, tried searching on their site multiple was related to surfside but can't find an article from 9/22. Got a link to the article?

from the CRSI:
Each Individual Reinforcing Bar is Manufactured with a Series of Individual Markings:

The first letter or symbol identifies the producing mill.
The next marking is the bar size.*
The third marking symbol designates the type of reinforcing steel — usually either "S" for carbon-steel (ASTM A615) or "W" for low-alloy steel (ASTM A706).
Finally, there will be a grade marking (60, 75, 80, 100, 120) or by the addition of one line (60) or two lines (75), three lines (80, 100), or four lines (120) that must be at least five deformations long.

Have we any indication as to why beams 33, 34, and 35 are still left on the slab?

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (rebardan)

from the CRSI

That's the current spec... but wasn't the spec in 1980.

Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)8 Oct 21 00:17)

@Reverse_Bias I cannot find that NYT article for the life of me

Sept. 1 U.S.

The Surfside Condo Was Flawed and Failing. Here’s a Look Inside.

A Times investigation shows how faulty design and construction could have contributed to the collapse of the building in South Florida.

By Anjali Singhvi, Mike Baker, Weiyi Cai, Mika Gröndahl and Karthik Patanjali

PRINT EDITION: Here Are 11 Serious Flaws Discovered In the Surfside Tower

September 22, 2021, Page A12

SF Charlie
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Problem is Charlie they have a pay wall to read their stories, so I can't read it.

Is “Here Are 11 Serious Flaws Discovered In the Surfside Tower” available online? It does not get returned in a search. And the image itself does not produce a hit in a reverse image search. Charlie indicates that it is page A12 from the print edition. The link he provided shows the interactive 3D model that we already saw about a month or so ago.

FWIW, like some other publications, the NYT counts number of views by IP address rather than by setting cookies. So clearing your cache will not reset the monthly count because it’s maintained server side. A typical way to avoid this limitation is to use a VPN, which can unfortunately slow your browsing by having narrowed your available bandwidth. To avoid cookies that other sites set, you can use Firefox to browse, and then erase your cache at the end of every session.

Here's a higher quality readable version of the article for download. Eng forums mangled it when I inserted the image into the post.
The only internet record of the article I found was the tweet from the author. But link provided in the tweet is to the Sept 1st interactive article not to the image in the tweet. I assume the graphic was the print only version, with mostly the same information.

https://twitter.com/singhvianjali/status/144072407...

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=375fe3c4-b356-426b-8c3b-f

Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)9 Oct 21 00:41)

Problem is Charlie they have a pay wall to read their stories, so I can't read it.

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SF Charlie
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Forgive me for not going back over hundreds of posts.
Has there been an official determination of the initial event or trigger that started the collapse?

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Quote (waross (Electrical)9 Oct 21 20:14)

Forgive me for not going back over hundreds of posts.
Has there been an official determination of the initial event or trigger that started the collapse?

NO

SF Charlie
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Quote (MaudSTL (Computer)9 Oct 21 03:17)

Is “Here Are 11 Serious Flaws Discovered In the Surfside Tower” available online?

It is available to print subscribers. It's a two page spread, only one page per post. Here's page 1.

SF Charlie
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• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=a7b37138-1a41-4e7c-8be7-c

Is “Here Are 11 Serious Flaws Discovered In the Surfside Tower” available online?
Here's page 2

SF Charlie
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• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=5258364c-f625-4e15-8f38-6

Hi Charlie. I hope that no means "No Official Word" on the trigger and not "No Forgiveness". grin.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

Speaking of triggers and collapse sequence, the NYT infographic implies a lot stronger collapse sequence than the Witness Timeline supports. So I think it’s a good idea to take the NYT’s lede and numbering with a big grain of salt.

For example, the first surviving witnesses who saw that the deck collapse as it happened actually saw it from the lobby. From their perspective in the lobby, the parking deck had collapsed, which corresponds to No. 5 on the NYT infographic. Just because the NYT leads with the palm trees and planters on the pool deck (Nos. 1 through 4) doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where the deck collapse actually initiated.

In other words, at this time, based on witness statements, we don’t know the sequence in which the deck collapsed.

Quote (MaudSTL)

I'm pretty sure the numbering the NYT used was just intended to link the captions to their respective locations on the building image and were not intended to be used as a sequence of events.

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Quote (Nukeman948)

What is likely to give the readers a false impression is this lede (and the four items that follow it:)



It’s just not an accurate claim in relation to the Witness Timeline.

Quote (MaudSTL)

You did an excellent job on the timeline, however, the pool deck is the first thing to fall that was confirmed by eyewitness accounts as a collapse. The earlier sounds could be dismissed as construction noises or the building creaking and failing. I fully understand your point but there is still room for errors either way as far as what actually fell first.

Edit to add: The numbers seem to be random as they are listing the "...11 Serious Flaws Discovered...". If they were trying to keep the flaws in order of the sequence they occurred, Design flaws should be listed before building flaws, followed by maintenance issues like tree roots and water damage.

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Thanks for posting the 2 files @SFcharlie. I figure the pool deck collapsed in phases, first what Sara Nir saw at the above-ground parking deck, her only vantage point, then maybe it cascaded toward the building from there, or maybe it all fell at once before the building did. I am miffed that NYT obviously used stuff from my July videos without giving me credit. For example, I clearly showed in my videos the difference in removed palm trees from May to December 2017 and showed how I stepped through all the annual sat photos to determine that, and I showed a very similar drawing of the drain slope on the pool deck.

Although, they left out what else I showed, how the 2" of sand under the pavers holds a lot of water at 8.3 pounds per gallon, not figured by the architect or engineer, who could not forsee a 1996 addition of planters and 20-foot palm trees. Furthermore, I showed how forklifts would bring in pallets of pavers and likely set them down, causing more stress to the pool deck, and possible latent fractures. Remember their article was published the first week of September after many of us were already discussing these items.

Quote (Nukeman948)

Thank you. Yes, that is my point. Eyewitnesses Sarah Nir and Shamoka Furman saw the parking deck collapse from the lobby. They did not realize that the pool deck had collapsed because they did not see it from the lobby. After they ran out of the lobby door, Gabe Nir and Nicolas Vazquez realized that the parking deck had collapsed. Neither of them realized at that time that the pool deck had collapsed, as they were too busy trying to escape from the building as it rumbled and shifted. Only after the collapse, when she accessed the pool deck to help Ileana Monteagudo (611) and others escape from the garage level, did Shamoka Furman realize the pool deck had collapsed. >>>>>Edit: This is why Shamoka’s 911 calls all report that the garage had collapse.

We don’t know where the deck collapsed first. We only know from the witness statements that the parking deck collapse was witnessed from the lobby, and that the pool deck collapse was not witnessed until after it had already collapsed, by the late Cassie Stratton in 410. >>>>>Edit: The later 911 call that reports the pool deck collapse is from the surviving part of the building, where the caller could not have seen the garage deck. So that too was well after the fact and implies no deck collapse sequence.

This is why I object to the NYT lede. There is no eyewitness account of the pool deck in the process of collapsing. There is no eyewitness account to help establish a deck collapse sequence.

>>>>>Edit:

Quote (waross)

Has there been an official determination of the initial event or trigger that started the collapse?

From the witness statement perspective, there are clues about where the building began to collapse, but no mention of a specific triggering event. As Chani Nir (111) stated, “banging” sounds were occurring when she got home at 11 PM. We don’t know when they actually started, and we don’t know if these sounds were also heard in the lobby or elsewhere, higher in the building.

As Sarah Nir (111) and Shamoka Furman (lobby) stated, at 1:10 AM there was a loud “smash” that was heard in both 111 and the lobby. If something fell in the garage rather than in a floor above, for example, it was not mentioned by Nicolas Vazquez, who arrived in the garage with his wife Gimena Accardi around that time.

So we have no eyewitness accounts of a triggering event per se. Prior to the building collapse at 1:22 AM, we only know from witness statements that:

1. The late Elena Blasser (1211) reported unusual loud cracking sounds occurred at 3-4:00 AM
2. The building was already shifting its load at 11 PM
3. Something fell at 1:10 AM that could be heard on the first floor
4. The parking deck collapsed at ~1:15 AM
5. From Adriana Sarmiento’s 1:18 AM video, there was debris and possibly Column M11.1 was damaged or collapsed in the garage
6. From reports of the late Cassie Stratton’s (410) call just before 1:22 AM, that the pool deck had collapsed

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

I am miffed that NYT obviously used stuff from my July videos without giving me credit. For example, I clearly showed in my videos the difference in removed palm trees...

When many different people are all investigating the same thing, they are likely to find some of the same problems even if they never see each other's work. Evidence of palm trees being added and removed as well as planters could be found by anyone. You have shown no proof that the NYT people even know you exist. Members of this board could be equally miffed about you using their work since the palm trees and planters were being discussed here (and possibly at NYT) before your video was posted. I don't see any of our members accusing you of spying on us.

You are miffed that you think they stole some of your "stuff" but then you seem miffed they didn't steal your waterlogged sand idea? Yeah, that's a great argument. It almost proves they didn't know about your work or it wasn't worth stealing.

Pallet jacks can be used to move pavers without fork trucks and trees can be cut down without boom lifts. Real engineers get paid to figure out how to get the job done without causing damage to the building. If you have any proof that heavy equipment was actually used on the pool deck, you should post the evidence.

Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills.

Quote (MaudSTL)

Eyewitnesses
Parking deck
Pool deck
Potato
Potahto

Well, it looks like you are using different terms than I am. To me it is all the "same slab", supported by columns and beams and separated by a row of planters. You are calling the parking part of the porte cochère section the "parking deck" and the rest the "pool deck". We have no way of knowing from the witness statements if they make those same distinctions or not. Perhaps the NYT is also calling it all the same deck and not trying to imply it progressed in a certain direction.

We also don't know if witnesses could see or understand the extent of the collapse from their vantage point, or if it was obscured by planters or dust in the air or they are simply misinterpreting what they are seeing due to the stress of the situation.

People using different terms and phrases because of regional dialect or English being a second language or any other reason, always cause me to take their statements "with a grain of salt", just like I do with all news stories and Youtube videos. Eyewitnesses are often proven wrong when new facts emerge.

Here's a video from the same year CTS was built. I hope it helps.
Link

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Quote (Nukeman948)

With all due respect, you’re plowing over the same ground we’ve been over before.

As I have said before, the fight or flight response triggers tunnel vision, which is why it is important to know where witnesses were when they saw/heard what they reported. As I have also said before, witnesses are the stars of their own movie, and we can only know what they state, filtered through their own confirmation biases and communication abilities.

People who read/hear witness statements are also stars in their own movies. And so they filter witness statements through their own confirmation biases, agendas, interests, etc. and develop an interpretation that may or may not not accurately reflect what the witness actually stated. As I have previously pointed out here, witness statements and interpretations of witness statements are indeed famously unreliable. Yet all we can do is view them accurately and take them into consideration with a grain of salt. I once got excused from a voir dire for pointing all this out to a prosecuting attorney.

My only goal here is to assure that an accurate record of what the witnesses actually stated is maintained, despite how a publication, a Twitter user, some guy using a pseudonym on an Internet forum, or anyone else spins it. Otherwise the interpretative narrative becomes the substitute for the actual statements, as just happened with the NYT infographic.

Hi Everyone,
I'm also on a blog about the Amtrak derailment. Maybe because we are all old fogies, but we treat each other with respect, for example it would be Mr. Nukeman.
Please let us all be more civil with each other.
Thank you all.
Respectfully and Gratefully,

SF Charlie
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Sometimes when a lot of "fertilizer" gets dumped on the ground it needs to get "plowed in" before it can do any good.
Interpret that as you wish.

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A history of Palm Trees on this tread:

Quote (DB27 (Structural)1 Jul 21 00:06)

Quote (Sym P. le) - It's not clear whether these planters were original or a refit.
Reviewing the aerials, previously, the planters had palm trees in them since at least 1999. That was until 2018 when the trees were removed.

Quote (NOLAscience (Structural)1 Jul 21 14:42)

RE: Column in Planter and Planters above Reinforced Concrete, in General
(The planters had palm trees from at least 2005 to 2018, when the plant scheme underwent a major revision.)

Quote (pellucidar (Computer)5 Jul 21 20:30)

I don’t think anyone has mentioned the “plumbing” repairs done in 2017 to address leaking pipes in the garage, at least some of which had been invaded by roots from the entirely unwaterproofed planters (NBC Miami). This may coincide with the disappearance of the palm trees and the failed crack repairs.

SF Charlie
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Quote (Nukeman948 (Electrical)10 Oct 21 16:32)

Sometimes when a lot of "fertilizer" gets dumped on the ground it needs to get "plowed in" before it can do any good.

Yes, I agree, Mr. Nukeman

SF Charlie
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Quote (Nukeman948)

Pallet jacks can be used to move pavers without fork trucks and trees can be cut down without boom lifts. Real engineers get paid to figure out how to get the job done without causing damage to the building. If you have any proof that heavy equipment was actually used on the pool deck, you should post the evidence.

I don't think any proof exists, nor does it exist of JLG lifts being used on the pool deck either during renovation work, but I've seen that thrown around too.

As far as I am aware, the only use of heavy equipment near the pool deck was the little baby front loader and the backhoe on the access road for the 87 park construction. This generated some concerns and complaints from residents of CTS in regards to the structural integrity of the wall near the above ground parking and near the M column line, but that's it.




Unrelated to all of that, I need some help with the placement of beams 33, 34, and 35 on the main slab. It's location looks incorrect to me. I'm asking from the perspective of this location.
There's a chance I have the beam numbers incorrect here which could explain my confusion.
I think the column with the blue X236 on it is Q8 (yellow bottom skinny column, parking spot 19), to it's left would be O.1 8 (This numbering is stupid. Wide column yellow bottom parking spot 19), to the left would be O8 (red bottom, parking spot 17) which beam 34 sat ontop. If that's correct, what is that sticking up out of the ground between O8 and O9.1?

I think I'm lost. Just trying to orientate myself.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Demented (Industrial)10 Oct 21 18:37)

...placement of beams 33, 34, and 35 on the main slab...

I don't know if this will help?:
(Image doesn't seem to be working for me...)

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=bf027ade-51a2-4d60-aed4-c

Folks, whether or not a JLG lift or a pallet Jack was used or not used may be irrelevant because still even if you wheeled in a pallet of these bricks that's an extremely heavy amount of weight to be driving across a pool deck that other engineers have already said was 99% loaded from the day it was built. This is the same sort of failure mode that they had at the Sampoong Department Store collapse. rolling a heavy AC across the concrete roof slab.

Also don't think for a minute that any of the deliveries was done under the auspices of an engineer. A lot of these delivery guys are not exactly engineers if you know what I mean. And a lot of these companies you can see them when they drive down the street with the paver bricks on the pallets on the trucks they have a forklift on the back they don't mess around with a pallet Jack because that would mean that they have to be able to get the pallets of pavers off of those giant flatbed trucks you don't do that with a pallet Jack necessarily it takes something at lot stronger like a forklift. And these guys are not going to sit there and park the forklift on the street and hand-carry all of these paver bricks onto the pool deck.

So I still think my hypothesis is the most likely method that these paver bricks were delivered onto the pool deck with a forklift. Heck even when they delivered pavers to my driveway a couple of months ago when we were doing our new paver brick driveway it was a forklift that carried the pavers on the pallets, 3 pallets off of the truck, and set it on my front yard.

These brick paver delivery guys are not engineers and they're not going to stop and pull out the plans to the garage to see if it's OK to drive their forklift on top of the deck there and I'm willing to bet that these delivery guys likely thought they were on the ground not over a garage. Most casual observers of this condo collapse it took me a long time to convince people that the pool deck was over a garage that it was not at ground level. I had to convince numerous people that the pool was not inground.

Hi

Quote (demented)

, we have been talking about this mystery column in the middle of that H-Beam since July. Numerous people have commented on my July video asking what that extra column is, and I have been beating my head against the wall trying to figure it out, there is no logical answer. We posted this question here on the forums previously also, and no one ever even acknowledged it. I plan on doing a video on that mystery column this week. IT does not appear on the garage level floor plan, but it does appear on the lobby level floor plan.

Quote (Demented)

Unrelated to all of that, I need some help with the placement of beams 33, 34, and 35 on the main slab.

I think the location is pretty close to where it should be. I have a real crazy idea about your question and a certain column but, due to a new development, I think I might wait to post it for a week or so. I got a deal on some pavers but I have to unload them by hand.

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Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Folks, whether or not a JLG lift or a pallet Jack was used or not used may be irrelevant

Gosh, you're right. No pallet jack was used. How silly of me.

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@Nukeman948
Awww why not now? I promise I'll like and subscribe for more 90% off tool deals that can't go on airplanes.

@SFCharlie
Image doesn't work for me either.

I have no nefarious thoughts on it. Just want to make sure the beams are located next to the correct columns and it hasn't been moved around. I'm just confused. Oh well. Back to squinting at blurry pictures of rebar.

Jeff, I worked construction in a basement for a building twice the height. We were building car stackers.

Because of the weights we were dealing with shoring was used in the bike storage area below the basement parking, then shoring was used between the basement and a ground level parking area which more stackers were used at.

The issue isn't the forklift on the pool deck. 100% shoring should have been used under it. Obviously the pool deck should have weight on it, it should be built with tolerances. The shoring isn't to stop the structure collapsing, its to prevent damage to the concrete structure.

Also, I have never seen the same prefab join welded so many times in my life. They had this guy redo the weld every day for two weeks. Never ending story.

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Pallet Jack Nonsense

Now that I have a bit of free time,

Whether or not a JLG lift or a fork lift was used, is totally irrelevant because Engineers can be surprisingly smart and forward thinking at times. When an area has limited load capacity they try to incorporate some type of limit or barrier to access by heavy equipment into their design. This pool deck was designed to have a narrow gate at each end and access through the lobby is blocked by three stairs to prevent access by heavy equipment.
They also made the turns to drive in to the porte cochère tight on purpose to prevent large vehicles from being able to enter.
I'm not convinced that heavy equipment ever got on the pool deck without some Engineer giving approval for these barriers to be circumvented.
And delivery guys don't ever need to do the Engineers job if the Engineer did it right himself.

You need to remove the old pavers before you bring in the new ones and assuming the new ones weigh the same as the old ones you should never exceed the load capacity of the slab.

If I was the contractor ten years ago replacing the pavers here, I would set up a mid sized excavator outside the wall to lift a couple skips over to the work crew. The work crew would use pallet jacks to move skips around or pallets of pavers. Because pallet jacks don't work good on sand, they would move the skips to the far side and fill the skips with the old pavers and work back towards the excavator, As the skips get filled they return them to the excavator so they could be lifted and dumped into a fleet of dump trucks. Work in the opposite direction with the new pavers and keep the pallets close to the leading edge of the work area. Now that the access road has been replaced by a sidewalk, the setup would need to be in the courtyard area.
Pretty simple work flow as long as you can keep the workers from painting themselves into a corner.

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Quote (Nukeman)

When an area has limited load capacity they try to incorporate some type of limit or barrier to access by heavy equipment into their design. This pool deck was designed to have a narrow gate at each end and access through the lobby is blocked by three stairs to prevent access by heavy equipment.
They also made the turns to drive in to the porte cochère tight on purpose to prevent large vehicles from being able to enter.
I'm not convinced that heavy equipment ever got on the pool deck without some Engineer giving approval for these barriers to be circumvented.
And delivery guys don't ever need to do the Engineers job if the Engineer did it right himself.

This is a giant leap, and none of it is correct.

Just because there is a gate between some planters does not mean some engineer in 1978 decided "I must keep forklifts out of this area, so these planters are going to 40" apart".

And even if they did, equipment exists which weighs thousands of lbs, and will fit anywhere you can walk. All-terrain pallet jacks exist, but I have worked with dozens of tile setters/landscapers and have never seen a single one in use. When they do stuff like this, they typically use a skid steer. If the site does not prevent access using a full size skid steer, they will use a walk-behind skid steer which fits through a man door.

Ultimately this is all a waste of time. Conjecture is not going to provide the smoking gun.

Quote (Nukeman98)

assuming the new ones weigh the same as the old ones you should never exceed the load capacity of the slab.

Being under the total load limit for the slab /= being under the localized point load limit for one spot on the slab. It would be very easy to set a couple of pallets of pavers next to each other on a slab not designed for that 4,000 lb point load and create a problem, especially in a retrofit situation where there is very likely zero engineering or structural consideration happening.

Which again is completely meaningless because this is all conjecture. Come back with data.

Quote (AutisticBez)

100% shoring should have been used under it.

This is also a leap. You can't assume competence on the part of anyone.

Quote (SwinnyGG)

...none of it is correct.

Seems like the conjecture is on your part, as is the burden of proving the Engineers didn't do their job.

The Condominium Association is responsible for hiring all contractors and all contracts contain wording as to limitations and responsibilities of all workers and what equipment can or can not be used and what precautions shall be taken. The original 1979 drawings had three full pages laying out what each contractor was responsible for and what precautions were required and what equipment was to be used. Then there are more pages that are trade specific at the beginning of their respective sections. Often there will be job specification books printed up that go into even more details for larger jobs.
Just because some equipment exists does not mean it will be allowed to be used on any job site.

Your strawman arguments are weak.

Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills.

Another thing about that pool deck folks is there was no other installation of paver bricks I think it was a concrete deck from the get-go there's nothing in the plans that I've seen from 1979 that shows pavers

These pavers were added in 1996, I have the 1996 building permit explaining the work to be done, and drawings, and an explanation of concrete spalling repairs, adding paver bricks, etc.

So the architects and engineers in 1979 could not have imagined that somebody would come along later and add not only the weight of the pavers, but the weight of two inches of sand, which does weigh quite a bit, plus all of the water that soaks up in that sand every time it rains at 8.3 pounds per gallon.
You can’t tell me this is not a stressor on the already overloaded, weakened, derated concrete and cracked pool deck and this is also not conjecture because we know that all of this stuff was put in installed in 1996 when it was not there before.

Also, there are planters that were brought in that were not on the original plans that have to weigh a huge amount and now you fill those planters with dirt and then you fill those planters with water when it rains and that adds a lot.
You filled those planters with 20-foot-tall palm trees and how did those palm trees get there? You don't just drag them across the deck and lift them up and over and put him into the planters, at 200 pounds per foot, these palm trees had to have been installed in 1996 and removed in Dec. 2017 with some type of a lift, or maybe they cut them down.

And forget the idea about narrow gates on either end of the pool because the gate on the end where the parking level meets the pool deck has a double gate so it's a 6-foot wide opening. And the gate on the other side of the pool on the East End towards the ocean is a 3-foot gate but the sections on either side of it are designed to be and able to be removed. In fact, companies do this all of the time to get at pool decks.

Remember also that the 2018 Morabito engineering report was very scathing about the quality of the work that was done here in 1996 to repair those cracks in the pool deck so those guys that did that work were complete amateurs and the work was so bad do you really think that they even bothered to put up any kind of shoring poles in the garage, do you think they needed it, if all they were doing is grout injection? Did an engineer do calculations to see if the deck needed shoring up while all this weight was being transported across it?

Quote (Demented (Industrial)11 Oct 21 07:45)

Image doesn't work for me either.

Sorry, I realize I didn't fathom the confusion. You're very gracious! Thanks.

SF Charlie
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RE: "Image doesn't work for me either."
In Chrome, I had to go to the URL bar, to the eyeball on the right, next to the star, right click on eye popped up 3rd party cookie dialog which asked "site not working" clicking that let me turn off 3rd party cookie blocking for this site only.
Now Image works for me.

SF Charlie
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@SFCharlie
It's all good. Something shifted somewhere, just can't see what/where.

@Jeff
There was no shoring, nor I believe even maths on additional weight added. No fork trucks were used though on the deck.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Lizard7709 (Civil/Environmental)23 Jul 21 11:13)

I also saw this of interest. Waterproofing, paver installation and garage repair in 1996.

Since then, paver(s) has been mentioned about 44 times! I know everyone is bored, waiting for MDPD(NCIS?) to loosen their grip on the evidence, but can we move beyond pavers, or I'm go'nta hafta make a new power pointy thing about pavers, pallet jacks, excavators, egos, nonexistent replacements, stamped concrete... Heck, I might even hafta make a YouTube video about it, I have a whole channel with nothing on it, to fill!


SF Charlie
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@Demented I don't see how you can claim No fork trucks were used though on the deck. There is no evidence to support either case. But then you also have to explain how they carted those 20-foot palm trees onto the pool deck.

Until someone can come up with an accurate enough explanation as to how Doctor Strange donned his robe waved his hands around it made those 20-foot palm trees leaned up and over the planters and into the middle of the planters, we have to assume some type of lift or forklift was used on the pool deck.

I could do a whole parody of "NCIS-Miami" what with all the NOOK-yoo-ler Submarine Bases, Navel Air stations, and narco activity, I could fill a whole YouTube (intracostal waterway) channel..

SF Charlie
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I gave an estimated surcharge two or three parts ago from waterproofing, sand layer and pavers but it is all forgotten in the mass of futile speculation since. Since no-one appears interested in relevant facts, I will not repeat it here.

Quote (Nukeman98)

Seems like the conjecture is on your part

I have been directly involved in the design process on multiple large scale multi-family construction projects, several of which have included amenity spaces placed at grade on top of excavated parking decks. I've partaken in the construction of nearly a billion dollars worth of cast-in-place concrete structures of various types, and been in the primary field supervision role on about 1/3 of those projects and counting.

What you're implying, that during the design process, the engineer says 'I'm going to put bollards here/space these concrete planters/size this gate so that no one can drive heavy equipment over this deck 30 years from now' is not something I've ever heard, even in passing, let alone as a design constraint.

I'm not saying it's impossible; there's probably ten thousand years worth of structural design experience in this thread, and if those fellows chime in that this is something they do, I'll happily eat my words. But I think it's very unlikely on any project, and even less likely on this particular project where the quality of the design work is already in question.

And, again, none of this matters because it's all pure conjecture. The point I'm making in saying that is that it's time to move on. Talk about what you can prove.

Quote (Nukeman98)

Just because some equipment exists does not mean it will be allowed to be used on any job site.

I agree. And just because some specs exist detailing what is and is not allowed, doesn't mean they were followed.

This is exactly why, in the modern construction world, we plan AND document. Planning means nothing if the crews don't care, and most of the time they don't - because working safely and using the right equipment is not always the fastest way.

Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

But then you also have to explain how they carted those 20-foot palm trees onto the pool deck.

If I were a betting man, I would bet they flew them in with a crane. But there's no way to know unless someone finds documentation of what was actually done (as you've already said).

Why are we talking about whether people might have done stupid things on the pool deck in 2017 (or even in the 90s)? I know structural failure can be slow, but surely that's irrelevant to the building collapse - something must have overloaded some part of the structure within hours or at most days of the collapse, right?

The addition of the sand and pavers did bring the pool deck up to near capacity though, Building Integrity did a video highlighting that and I believe there were some posts in an earlier thread trying to do the maths on here too.

Quote (apper.42 (Structural)11 Oct 21 19:06)

I gave an estimated surcharge two or three parts ago from waterproofing, sand layer and pavers

Yes!, and some of us are paying attention, and Thank you!

SF Charlie
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Quote (Red Corona)

surely that's irrelevant to the building collapse - something must have overloaded some part of the structure within hours or at most days of the collapse, right?

Not necessarily. It's clear that ongoing maintenance of this structure was a problem; it's possible that a modification to the building significantly lowered design margin, which created a situation where lack of maintenance or even the normal slow structural degradation of the building over time (which happens even in well-maintained buildings) took one member or many members below the required capacity and triggered a failure.

Whether or not a forklift/pallet jack/walk behind skid steer was ever driven onto the pool deck and caused a discrete failure due to the associated point load is similar to the added load from the pavers themselves; it's possible that one of those was a factor in the collapse; but at this point, with the information we have in hand, we can't know one way or the other.

@Jeffostroff
The 1996 palms. 14ft tallest palm. 45 gallon sized root ball. Most palms were 25 gallon, 80-12ft wee little things weighing in at around 350-450lbs. Boom trucks and a crane were on site. The landscaping was done in conjunction with waterproofing, deck repair, garage ceiling repair, and fixing the broken root clogged planter drains. I cannot imagine they'd hire other heavy equipment to do what their already expensive as hell per hour rental can do.

If any idiocy with scissor lifts or lulls was done, it was the crew after the 1996-1997 crew.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Swinny, how do you know the size and weight of these palm trees, do you have other documentation that we have not seen?

How do you know that boom trucks and cranes were used? A boom truck parked along the 87 ave alleyway to the beach is not likely to reach that far over the pool wall, across the pool, then across the pool deck without tipping over a boom truck.

I read the permits.
*shrugs*

The info is in there. You just gotta read, not look.

Edit: I'm just curious. How did they get a lift or fork jack thingy of some sorts onto the pool deck? What pathway did they drive it onto? Or did they use the crane or boom truck on site to lift it? I'm just curious. I fancy myself skilled at sketchy forklift driving, but there's only 2 ways I'm getting a fork truck on that deck. From the sky, or crashing through a wall roadrunner style.

Roadrunner goes around. Coyote crashes through. Sometimes with an Acme Forklift.




spsalso

The landscape drawing for the 1996 permit does show a few palm trees with a height listed. But most palm trees on the pool deck are showing no heights, nor root ball size which is why I asked about that.

The 2 Lantana Palm trees at the planter outside Sara Nir's unit 111, are not showing any height on the drawing. which again is why I asked where did he get that info?

If it is not specified in the permit, how does he know?

If you look at photos from 2017, you can see these 2 palm trees in question, one right over M11.1, and the other palm tree over "L11.1". Both trees are the tallest trees there, over 4 feet taller than the other trees. That extra 4 feet may not seem large to you but it does add about 800 pounds per tree in that area.
So now we have an additional 1600 pound dead load right on top of the planters in an area we know to be weak and leaking through to the garage below.

And no matter what, by 2017 those trees were all pushing 20 feet. They are like parked cars sitting on the pool deck which was not designed to park cars on it.

Also, here's how a forklift would get onto the pool deck:

Method 1: Long bed truck with forklift hanging off back parks on Collins Ave in front of the building. Driver with forklift drives all pallets of bricks over the above-ground parking deck east toward the pool fence, then they open both gates and it drives on the pool deck, and distributes the pallets all over. Probably done in 30 minutes, these guys are in and out fast. I have never seen them stay at any of my sites longer than 15 minutes.

Method #2: Boom truck pulls up on 77th alongside the pool and lifts pallets over the wall and sets them down by the jacuzzi. Then forklift or pallet jacks are used to move the pallets into their positions around the pool deck.

Method #3 (Less Likely): Long bed truck parks on NW 88 St on the northside of building and forklift is used to drive the pallets south along the east border of the property until they encounter the gate, and they have to remove the 2 gate panels on either side of the gate to fit the forklift through.
.
. I spotted this typical long bed delivery truck the other day, on its way to drop off pallets of tile at the customer. Note they only use forklifts. This is what I receive at all my sites, dropping off tile, paver bricks, or wood flooring and 16ft baseboards.

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Quote (Jeff Osteroff)

If it is not specified in the permit, how does he know?

I never said anything about knowing the height of the palm trees...

I said if I were a betting man I would bet they flew them in with a crane (because that's how I would do it) but that there's no way for us (including me...) to know for sure what exactly they did.

It was @demented who said: "The 1996 palms. 14ft tallest palm. 45 gallon-sized root ball. Most palms were 25 gallon, 80-12ft wee little things weighing in at around 350-450lbs. Boom trucks and a crane were on site."

while some of his info is correct, not all of it is. Nowhere could I find root ball sizes, or that boom truck and crane were present on site

But anyway, by time 2017 rolled around these palm trees were no longer "wee little things" weighing 350-450. The trunks get wider and they get taller, they grow about a foot per year and level off about 20-22 feet, depending on the breed.

Also, the payers won't have been done in 1 day either. Work on a small area at a time. Maximum 1 pallet of pavers and a bin. You've got to understand the pace of work is a crawl. When I was doing work, the boss only came down once a week. The other 4 days we did jack. My knees were in pain from standing around doing nothing for 8 x 4 hours. Then when the boss came down he still had no work. Its the easiest job of my life. Rofl. Only concrete workers work fast.

@Jeffostroff
The tree supplier is listed in the permit. Rootball, gallon pots, and weight are going to be standard sized at certain tree heights. Pot gallon sizes will be standard with height and weight of trees. On the landscaping layout, it's pretty obvious they only had installation of smaller trees on the pool deck. Likely to ease installation, and to not block the view of the pool/ocean. Larger trees were reserved for the front of the property.

There's more information around the same work project scattered all over. I'm not responsible for the Town of Surfside's organization practice. I'm sure you've seen all of the elevator inspection reports and permits scattered all over the place in things like individual unit interior permits and spa tile resurfacing. I'm pretty sure the town is still just releasing social security numbers, passport photos, drivers licenses, etc without a care in the world too.

@Spsalso
Thanks for the correction. You all meant what I knew though.

@SFCharlie
I figured the file out. Had to add on the file extension manually.
Still just as confused. So I guess, wtf is that rebar cage?

Quote (AutisticBez)

Also, the payers won't have been done in 1 day either. Work on a small area at a time. Maximum 1 pallet of pavers and a bin. You've got to understand the pace of work is a crawl. When I was doing work, the boss only came down once a week. The other 4 days we did jack. My knees were in pain from standing around doing nothing for 8 x 4 hours. Then when the boss came down he still had no work. Its the easiest job of my life. Rofl. Only concrete workers work fast.

Uh... that's now how it works in commercial construction at all. Between the pavers, trees, and all the other little stuff they did all at once this was a contract worth a couple hundred grand probably... no one was standing around 4 days a week.

@SwinnyG
There actually was a lot of of standing around waiting on people in both of the major renovation projects. Permit extensions even at times simply due to some contractors not showing or leaving nearly just as they got there.

In a normal situation, I agree, that shit normally doesn't happen, but there was a lot of disorganization and at will stuff with the first engineering firm that took on beautifying CTS. It's cool though. The workers were allowed to inspect and pass their own work.

Well, there are 30 references to "palm" and 41 to "paver" in this part 13, so... must be time for a new part:
(I wonder if we could leave the palms and pavers here?)
PLEASE STOP POSTING IN THIS PART 13 PLEASE
Please allow me to move the discussion to Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14, Thank-you.
Someone Please close this post to new postings, or message me how to do this, Thanks.

SF Charlie
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