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Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
20

Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

(OP)

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

#Demented, I see the column repair now, and sandblasting of rebar in column, plus I see beam repair details too.......

Edit: I uploaded the PDF to Eng-Tips and deleted drop box link...

https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=...

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Conspiracy?
*puts on Inconel718 hat*

And yes, I was blurring two things. Dumbdumb over here has to go find what he was referring to with the column exploration. It may not have even been work that was done yet. I got distracted by requirements over piles and core drills in the balcony repair permits and jumped to assumptions. Still have to read all of the hand scribble notes because I'm still not sure of the full scope of this repair. It was all over the place. Seems they did a lot of additional damage they had to fix, and they were rushed too because of other work schedules.

Quote (BecauseSurfside)



Because Surfside
​I will post a timelapse soon that shows where the water comes from

​There will be a full moon on Friday. Tune in at 9 am for high tide; and 11 to 1 when the tide is going out. Let's see if the water is higher at 9 than it is at 1pm

The slab really is filling with water with the tides.
This will be interesting.


Edit: The dropbox link gives a 404. Was this the same permit, or was this different work?
Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (arbitraria)



this was in the "condo structure" permit file from yesterday's uploads.


Thanks--interesting reading.

So "we" did periodic observations of the progress of construction.

A strict reading seems to imply that Breiterman was hired as a separate act from the design work, and that hiring was prompted by the Zoning Department.



spsalso

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

For those watching the tide flood the slab, here’s where the tide was on the night of the collapse.

~11 PM, when Chani Nir came home to 111 and heard knocking sounds.

>>>>Deleted; see below.

~1:22 AM, when the building collapsed.

>>>>Deleted; see below.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

SFCharlie, I satisfied your request for a PowerPoint document, but got caught in the transfer to this 08 version. Can you transfer my submission from the 07 version to the 08 version?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

The moon was nearly full on June 23, 2021.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (MaudSTL)

Have you seen the relative heights of the garage floor vs sea level, and/or what the known standing water level is round there? The figures I've seen here I've seen all reference +/- grade (I think) but I have not seen what grade is vs permanent datum. I like your idea of a concrete canoe (now a leaky one) but it would be good to know how close to standing water it really was.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (AusG)

Have you seen the relative heights of the garage floor vs sea level, and/or what the known standing water level is round there? The figures I've seen here I've seen all reference +/- grade (I think) but I have not seen what grade is vs permanent datum. I like your idea of a concrete canoe (now a leaky one) but it would be good to know how close to standing water it really was.

T.O. Basement Garage Slab: -0.27ft NAVD.

It’s important to note, the critical tide height level is from the Biscayne Bay side, not the Atlantic. The tide levels vary greatly and it’s necessary to use the appropriate reporting station for analysis.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Thank you!

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I’m looking forward to seeing MarkBoB2’s high-res PowerPoint presentation in this thread.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (AusG)

Have you seen the relative heights of the garage floor vs sea level, and/or what the known standing water level is round there? The figures I've seen here I've seen all reference +/- grade (I think) but I have not seen what grade is vs permanent datum. I like your idea of a concrete canoe (now a leaky one) but it would be good to know how close to standing water it really was.
Does the floor level at this point matter when the piles are known to be in the location of a former body of flowing water?

Tide go in, tide go out. Sand goes with, and what good is a pile in the sand with no bedrock attachment with flowing water?

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

(OP)

Quote (MarkBoB2 (Electrical)22 Jul 21 00:28)


At the request of SFCharlie I have uploaded a PowerPoint file with this submission containing the four images shown in my last submission. Hopefully this will improve the resolution of the images. It will also allow removing some or all annotation over the images to permit viewing any objects obscured by the annotation.
For anyone without a PowerPoint application, I suggest copying the JPG or PNG images from my last submission using your computer's COPY function and then pasting the copied image into either a Word or PowerPoint document before viewing. Both of these applications have zoom capability. When I did this on the images from my last submission, the resolution was only slightly degraded, probably because of using the Microsoft Paint application to create a JPG or PNG version of each image. If you still find the image resolution unsatisfactory, then it's likely because your computer display is not good enough.
Thank You!
( for those of us that don't have PowerPoint, I have attached each slide as a .png file in following posts )


SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

https://www.saj.usace.army.mil/Surfside/

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (AusG)

Thank you!

Anytime. Indian Creek Golf Course ICWW Station ID #8723094 is the nearest appropriate location.

Quote (Demented)

Does the floor level at this point matter when the piles are known to be in the location of a former body of flowing water?

Tide go in, tide go out. Sand goes with, and what good is a pile in the sand with no bedrock attachment with flowing water?

Is that you Danny?

The bedrock was extremely shallow in that location, and if an image is taken at the right time, it’s possible to see remnants of the early dredging attempts off shore to connect Indian Creek to the Atlantic. Due to the difficulties encountered, a channel was created just north at Baker’s Haulover.

There are very few natural sand beaches south of Broward County. Almost all in Miami-Dade are man made. The texture is not what most would equate to beach sand. It’s more like a fine crushed and very dusty pumice.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Moved over from the other thread.

@Thermopile
This be the one.
2009 permitted work.






n


Small world. These guys are right around the corner from me.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Santos81
No, this is not Danny.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

FOR SHITS & GIGGLES ONLY, NOT SERIOUS

Upscaled images 1-3 from the MarkBoB2's post in Topaz Gigapixel AI by 4x. Totally bullshit for anything serious, since it's whatever the hell hallucination the machine learning model drew in. But no upscaling algorithm can add detail that isn't there in the source and still be accurate to reality, so this is no worse than PowerPoint's scaling (probably Lanczos resampling).

https://imgur.com/a/ahMb5vH

https://i.imgur.com/hrY03hh.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/ELBnjTH.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/CzKnMUe.jpeg

Edit: broke out the individual image links since Imgur doesn't make it that obvious.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Santos81)

Sadly that station is not present on the NOAA database I found. It may have tides, but not all the reference datums recorded. Haulover also has insufficient data. No matter, we get the idea. At high water and "higher high water", this thing had wet feet, but not all the time. Posted as image to preserve tabulation. All numbers in feet.

Link to NOAA
Link

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Santos81)

Indian Creek Golf Course ICWW Station ID #8723094 is the nearest appropriate location.

Ironically I first used Biscayne Creek but then thought twice and switched to the Atlantic side Miami Beach 8723170. I am still not clear on why we want the other side, but will be glad to change out the images.



RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

if the root cause is related to some type of sinkhole, pile failure, subsidence, foundation collapse, etc. it should be fairly easy to rule in or out. Either the remnants of the garage column bases were there or they weren't during the cleanup. Based on the few grainy photos available, I haven't seen any evidence of a foundation issue in the photos but only so much can be seen in them. The people on the ground should have seen it. Either there is nothing there to support foundation failure or there is, and they havent made it public.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (CE3527)

and

Quote (Missstructures)

Agreed. In the one image we have seen of the garage floor dry the column bases are at least visible, although some more strongly represented than others. No holes anyway, and the floor looks undeformed to general observation. Sinkholes (etc) not making a strong case for themselves right now. My interest was to see if hydrostatic pressure was relevant, or if the discussion of saltwater was confined to corrosion issues.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

2
I don't get the purpose of the Powerpoint. Wouldn't it be better to interview all the workers/inspectors up there in the 1-2 weeks preceding failure, ask them how many people were up there, what were they doing, what equipment they brought up/down, and cross check with notes, communications, what the security guard(s) remember?

That way one could tell which AC units were replaced, or any davits/weights installed for stucco work. To conclude any of that was causative of collapse is yet another matter - well that's where engineers would begin.

Staring at magnified images of post-demolition rubble means we're really reaching for straws. Making out arbitrary shapes to suggest they built hanging platforms while replacing AC's seems downright silly. Anything that separated from the roof during/after the fall landed at plaza level, likely mixing with anything that could have fallen ahead of the roof, right? The 87 Park video clearly shows the mid-section roof angling toward the viewer as the building south facade fell first, after which the two other sections (mainly the north) had the chance to spill debris over that.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (MaudSTL)

I am still not clear on why we want the other side, but will be glad to change out the images

There is a continuous bulkhead and dyke N-S along the eastern hardpack boundary from Haulover Inlet to South Pointe Park. In addition every structure along this path has an additional bulkhead placed 120’ west of this. The elevation is higher on the east side of A1A than on the west. Along the East shore of Biscayne Bay, the elevation is lower by several feet, the interior bulkhead is not continuous, private sea walls are inconsistent, and the storm water discharges are located there. Despite efforts to secure these with anti-return valves and pump stations, sea water is still entering many of these due to elevations that are no longer sufficient and frequent equipment failure.

Geography adds an additional problem. In the camera feed, we can see the tidewater entering from the west and moving east; the opposite direction we’d expect based on lunar movement. Biscayne Bay is very irregular when it comes to hydrodynamic flow despite what some mariners claim. CTS was due East of one of the more affected choke points.

I live on one of the manmade islands in Biscayne Bay. I’ll pull out the surveys from the new sea wall cap and bulkhead extension I did a couple years ago.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Eufalconimorph)

You could get a gig on NCIS mate!

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

News...

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/judge-us-150-million-...

"As the remaining rubble from the collapse of a 12-story oceanfront condominium was cleared away Wednesday, a Florida judge said victims and families who suffered losses will get a minimum of US$150 million in compensation initially.

That sum includes about US$50 million in insurance on the Champlain Towers South building and at least $100 million in proceeds from the sale of the Surfside property where the structure once stood, Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Michael Hanzman said at a hearing.

"The court's concern has always been the victims here," the judge said, adding that the group includes visitors and renters, not just condo owners. "Their rights will be protected.""

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/another-surfsi...

Another condo evacuation over questionable garage columns. Three-story, built 70 years ago, 93rd & Collins... Evacuation wasn't mandatory; residents are just going ahead with it. The unresolved mystery of Champlain South - likely to persist for quite some time - is serving as a potent wake-up call to get people to scrutinize building integrity and question what level of deterioration is acceptable.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Interesting technical study on the effects of corrosion and resistance on punch through failure for columns and two-way flat slabs. Probably unsurprising, the study found that corrosion reduces punch through resistance, results in wider cracks, and reduces the radius of the shear punch through failure.

Link

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Another 70 year old steel reinforced concrete building on the verge of self-destruction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon#/media/...


I recommend EVERYONE evacuate the building immediately! Financial remuneration sure to follow.



spsalso

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Santos81)

There is a continuous bulkhead and dyke N-S along the eastern hardpack boundary from Haulover Inlet to South Pointe Park. In addition every structure along this path has an additional bulkhead placed 120’ west of this. The elevation is higher on the east side of A1A than on the west. Along the East shore of Biscayne Bay, the elevation is lower by several feet, the interior bulkhead is not continuous, private sea walls are inconsistent, and the storm water discharges are located there. Despite efforts to secure these with anti-return valves and pump stations, sea water is still entering many of these due to elevations that are no longer sufficient and frequent equipment failure.

Geography adds an additional problem. In the camera feed, we can see the tidewater entering from the west and moving east; the opposite direction we’d expect based on lunar movement. Biscayne Bay is very irregular when it comes to hydrodynamic flow despite what some mariners claim. CTS was due East of one of the more affected choke points.

I live on one of the manmade islands in Biscayne Bay. I’ll pull out the surveys from the new sea wall cap and bulkhead extension I did a couple years ago.
More likely it's just been filling from the storm drains? Do you have a source for plans/maps of the drainage infrastructure? LWDD gives us an awesome interactive map for up here.

It hasn't rained all night and the tides have gone and there's no dry spots left on the slab it seems once again. Pool level remains the same, and the slab is still slowly filling.


Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

The water table in the sand of course could be naturally a little higher than sea level, and be further plumped up by runoff. It looks like we are measuring it by the refilling of the garage anyway.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I have reviewed MarkBo's photos/powerpoint at length and... I'm sorry gents I just don't see those photos as evidence of, well, anything.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I thought the opposite. More and more evidence, but of nothing.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

The regent palace condo, 3 blocks from the fallen Champlain towers, is 70 yrs old and is being evacuated voluntarily by tenants , due to structural faults. The primary owner, who already owns most units, is buying up the remaining units at reduced prices due to the amplified fears of collapse. The primary owner has plans to demolish the condo and rebuild. Overall, it shows "the market" is already functioning to replace the older condos, and the reported numbers are that over 75% of condos in the Miami area are over 30 yrs old. It is not clear where they will find sufficient structural engineers to inspect all these older units under the new inspection guidelines being developed. It looks to be a promising area for construction of replacement condos.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Not new guidelines. Crist did away with 5 year inspections in 2010 suggesting no one had the value of hindsight 11 years ago. "We didn't have Surfside then," he said.
https://www.news-journalonline.com/story/news/stat...

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

MarkBob2,

In photo 2 of your Powerpoint you mark two cars and ask "Is one of these cars parked in a driving lane? Something is not right here."

These two cars can be seen in this picture... they are in the guest parking in marked spots.


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

MarkBob2, I am having a hard time seeing what you see, but my laptop is a 2012 model....... and after Spartan5's Trail Mix BM, I don't think I can see or want to see anything clearly anymore......... Way TMI.......

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Devil's advocate back again. Is the cubic grey item a test weight for a crane and is the water draining from the deck drains, the implication being an initial partial deck collapse?

Frame grab from USA Today video




View of back of stall 27 from Youtube video of Unit 611 tour (near the end)

EDIT: deck drains are likely planter drains from initial construction

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Sym P. le (Mechanical)22 Jul 21 15:54
Devil's advocate back again. Is the cubic grey item a test weight for a crane?)


Interest thought, and that would explain it looking like raw unfinished concrete cube .......

Or counter balance weight for a swing stage hanging over parapet wall from I-Beam sitting on top of scaffolding......

There is nothing good to tie back end of swing stage counter balance to, at ground level on an suspect elevated garage, therefore a counter weight on swing stage makes a lot of sense with only crappy parapet walls to anchor to...

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Can anyone explain why the recovery crew left this small pile of debris near the end of the ramp for two days when they cleared the area of the parking basement behind it? Was it because there was one or more objects of interest in the pile?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

MarkBob2,

I clearly think there were objects of interest in that pile, and I can see some of the man made objects, just not clearly enough to validate what I am seeing on an old laptop screen with old eyes too.....

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Has any scaffolding been found on the site? It would have been on the north side, likely in view of the tiktok video witness.

Edit:
Sand bags in FL might be more likely as counter balance. Each crew/company is different though

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

MarkBoB2,

There is an interesting steel channel in one of your pictures, that I wonder where it came from? It looks like something a contractor would be dragging around from job to job, and not something that would have been installed as part of CTS.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

So a Cubic Yard of Concrete weights up to the 4000 lb nominal range???

Edit: F=ma

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented)

Sand bags in FL might be more likely as counter balance. Each crew/company is different though

Sand bags for counterweight of scaffolding or davits are a pretty serious OSHA violation.. I wouldn't attribute any sand bags to that.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I'm guessing you didn't see the pictures of the forklift and ladder, or the welded fire escape doors.

OSHA violations are far too common in this area, especially serious ones.

Oh well. Lunch is over. Back I go to unpermitted and not enginered ocean front construction.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Eufalconimorph with the Gigapixel software...

Maybe you could use that software on the "mystery of what's beyond the Gated Ramp" photo? Prob best to start with an original photo vs anything we can link on here, or just a few posts above this one, Sym P linked one. I'd love to see what you could do with that!

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Does the plaza/deck collapse really need a trigger?

It looks like it was more of a gradual degradation slab until it reached a tipping point. Eventually it couldn't handle nighttime parked car load and it just caved in.

I know I've hung plenty of suction cups on the fridge that just fall of in the middle of the night when nothing was near it. One time I even left my dresser drawers open and it fell over several hours later. Nothing needed to come off the roof, and no car needed to hit it.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Using the frame posted above from the USA Today video along with a superimposed cutout of column 27 from the 611 tour video (scaled from the top of the numeral 27 to the top of the yellow band), it is obvious that we see the floor of the parkade, not a slab drop from above, at least in the driving aisle. The debris in the aisle likely tumbled in from adjacent areas or includes chunks from overhead but not a complete section drop of that area.



RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Reverse_Bias (Electrical) 22 Jul 21 16:45)

Does the plaza/deck collapse really need a trigger?

More than likely yes, and the video demands an explanation. No credible report can skip this evidence.

Having said that, I suspect the investigation is way ahead of us.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Reverse_Bias)

Eventually it couldn't handle nighttime parked car load and it just caved in.

No one has interviewed Shamoka Furman, the security guard who was in the lobby next to the surface car park. We know she heard the “collapsed wall” of the first collapse, which brought Sara Nir to the lobby to complain. What is less clear is whether Shamoka also heard the knocking sounds that Chani Nir says she heard as soon as she got to 111 at 11 PM. Those knocking sounds from above went on for two hours or longer, becoming increasingly “intense.”

No one who used the garage around that time has so far reported hearing the knocking sounds in the garage. Eric Zion has not stated he heard them in the garage at 10:30 (arrived with his wife), 11:30 (left with his wife,) or 12:30 (arrived alone.) Just before 12:30, Sara and Gabe Nir parked in the garage when they got home, and so far neither has stated they heard the knocking sounds down there. At around 1:15, Nicolas Vazquez stated he only heard a loud creaking sound a few seconds before he and his wife got on the elevator in the garage.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (MarkBoB2)

Can anyone explain why the recovery crew left this small pile of debris near the end of the ramp for two days when they cleared the area of the parking basement behind it? Was it because there was one or more objects of interest in the pile?
As others have told you repeatedly, red paint denotes the presence or potential for human remains. Most likely that a cadaver dog had hit on this area of the pile.

None of your the items identified through your theoretical squinting have visible paint on them.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (MaudeSTL)

We know she heard the “collapsed wall” of the first collapse.
Source for that quote?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Optical98 asked:

Quote (Optical98)

Maybe you could use that software on the "mystery of what's beyond the Gated Ramp" photo? Prob best to start with an original photo vs anything we can link on here, or just a few posts above this one, Sym P linked one. I'd love to see what you could do with that!

The "gated Ramp" photo was from a TicToc video taken using a cell camera having a very limited resolution. My computer and high resolution display cannot increase this image resolution when it it limited by the camera in the first place. The photos of the debris pile that I have shown were taken by a high resolution camera on a drone or by a high resolution still camera while standing near the ramp area. These photos are clearly of professional image quality made by someone who could afford a camera with high quality optics.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Spartan5)

Source for that quote?

Sara Nir went to the lobby at 1:14. She told CNN (go to 1:45 in this video) that when she got to the lobby, she asked the security guard if she (Sara refers to Shamoka as “he”) had heard that noise. She says the guard told her she had heard it.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Optical98 (Computer))


22 Jul 21 16:42
Eufalconimorph with the Gigapixel software...

Maybe you could use that software on the "mystery of what's beyond the Gated Ramp" photo? Prob best to start with an original photo vs anything we can link on here, or just a few posts above this one, Sym P linked one. I'd love to see what you could do with that!

I could. But as I noted in the previous post where I used it, it's a machine-learning system that paints in whatever hallucinations it has when scaling the image. You inherently can't get extra detail when zooming in on something, you just get artifacts. They can be nice, pretty, believable artifacts (like what Gigapixel creates) or they can be blurry junk (like a bilinear interpretation). Anything other than nearest-neighbour interpolation adds false detail. Wikipedia's comparison of image scaling algorithms is worth looking at. Note the details in the algorithm output that aren't there in the original.

"Enhancing" images like this is good for trolling and conspiracy theorizing. It's quite nice for artistic uses. It's utterly useless for engineering analysis.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (MaudeSTL)

No one has interviewed Shamoka Furman, the security guard who was in the lobby next to the surface car park. We know she heard the “collapsed wall” of the first collapse
Per the CNN interview you shared:

We don’t know that Furman heard a “collapsed wall.”

We do know that Nir asked Furman if they heard “that sound” and Nir said Furman replied that they heard “that noise.”

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (dragon6172 (Mechanical))

These two cars can be seen in this picture... they are in the guest parking in marked spots.

That photo has to be from after the second half of the building was demo'd. I think that must be understood by most. But it does seem to point out how it clouds the issue of investigation. It did not fall entirely within its footprint.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Spartan5 said:

Quote (Spartan5)

As others have told you repeatedly, red paint denotes the presence or potential for human remains. Most likely that a cadaver dog had hit on this area of the pile.
None of your the items identified through your theoretical squinting have visible paint on them.

You have not answered my question. If the red paint denotes the presence or potential for human remains, then why has the recovery crew left this pile in place for two days when they have removed the debris around all other 94+ cases of human remains? Is it possible that red paint denotes something else in addition to human remains? Like perhaps some object of extreme importance?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Eufalconimorph (Computer) 22 Jul 21 17:26)

... utterly useless for engineering analysis.

If someone gives you photographic or video evidence of a situation and says "This is what I saw", why on earth would it be dismissed. That would be like saying what you saw didn't happen, don't trouble us with your worries. Of course the trolls are out but that doesn't minimize the value of the evidence.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Spartan5)

Per the CNN interview you shared:

We don’t know that Furman heard a “collapsed wall.”

We do know that Nir asked Furman if they heard “that sound” and Nir said Furman replied that they heard “that noise.”

The reason “collapsed wall” is in quotes is because that is what Sarah Nir has called the noise she heard from above at 1:10 am (which is the same as what Gabe Nir has called the first of three stages of collapse). It is in quotes to indicate that “collapsed wall” represents the words of a witness, in this case Sara Nir. No, we don’t know that it was an actual collapsed wall. It is what the first collapse sounded like at the time to to the surviving witness Sara Nir.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (MarkBoB2)

You have not answered my question. If the red paint denotes the presence or potential for human remains, then why has the recovery crew left this pile in place for two days when they have removed the debris around all other 94+ cases of human remains? Is it possible that red paint denotes something else in addition to human remains? Like perhaps some object of extreme importance?
We haven’t established any kind of timeline for when the red paint appeared or when the pile was removed. Just because you don’t like my answer doesn’t mean I haven’t given you one.

They marked everything of importance with blue paint. If there was something of “extreme importance” wouldn’t that warrant something more than simply switching up the colors? Crime scene tape, cones, a physical barrier of some sort? And then why would they switch to the same color that they used to denote human remains? Why not yellow?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

3

Quote (Reverse_Bias (Electrical) 22 Jul 21 16:45 Does the plaza/deck collapse really need a trigger? It looks like it was more of a gradual degradation slab until it reached a tipping point. Eventually it couldn't handle nighttime parked car load and it just caved in. I know I've hung plenty of suction cups on the fridge that just fall of in the middle of the night when nothing was near it. One time I even left my dresser drawers open and it fell over several hours later. Nothing needed to come off the roof, and no car needed to hit it. )


This is a good question to ask from the laypersons perspective so I will try and answer it based on my experience in design analysis and inspection of reinf conc structures for almost 30 years. The problem with a scenario where there is no trigger as you describe where the plaza deck has deteriorated and suddenly goes from stable to complete failure in less than about hour is this. Reinforced concrete almost never fails in this short of time without obvious signs of structural distress days, weeks months or years before the actual failure. In fact this is baked into the way reinforced concrete is designed such that failure is not brittle but gradual/ductile so that action can be taken prior to catastrophic collapse. Practically speaking, if there was no trigger then the slab should have shown more signs of deterioration like chunks of spalled concrete on the floor of the parking garage and heavy, noticeable cracking of the slab and beams well before the night of the collapse. The area where the failure occurred seems like a heavily trafficked, well lit part of the parking garage so you would think that problems in this area would have been noticed even by someone with zero knowledge of structures. I'm not saying it couldn't have collapsed without some trigger, nor that the slab wasn't underdesigned and deteriorated, but the evidence makes me lean more towards a trigger of some sort.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Spartan5 said:

Quote (Spartan5)

If there was something of “extreme importance” wouldn’t that warrant something more than simply switching up the colors? Crime scene tape, cones, a physical barrier of some sort?

They did have a physical barrier of some sort. See the three red cones on the ramp in the attached photo? They are on the only path that can be easily used to reach the pile of interest. The other path is a ramp by the pool that is used by machinery and is easily controlled. And other photos show a red tape between the red cones.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (MaudeSTL)

The reason “collapsed wall” is in quotes is because that is what Sarah Nir has called the noise she heard from above at 1:10 am (which is the same as what Gabe Nir has called the first of three stages of collapse). It is in quotes to indicate that “collapsed wall” represents the words of a witness, in this case Sara Nir. No, we don’t know that it was an actual collapsed wall. It is what the first collapse sounded like at the time to to the surviving witness Sara Nir.
You can’t take that and turn it into, ‘we know Furman heard a collapsing wall.’

As I pointed out in the last thread, in the very CNN interview you are referencing, Nir refers to the wall collapse as “construction” noises and goes to complain about it not because she’s worried about the building, but because she’s annoyed that it’s happening at 1 am.

Now you’ve turned that into “we know two people hearing a wall collapse.”

You are doing the same thing you are aware is an issue and are critical of:

Quote (MaudSTL)

Many media outlets are paraphrasing the source interviews and we should interpret all of these secondary pieces, not just the NY Post, with a grain of salt.

It’s been pretty clear that when Nir went to complain she was more annoyed that the noises were happening at that hour than she was that some portion of the building collapsed. That is, until she went to the lobby and saw it happening firsthand.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Sym.P.Le)

If someone gives you photographic or video evidence of a situation and says "This is what I saw", why on earth would it be dismissed. That would be like saying what you saw didn't happen, don't trouble us with your worries. Of course the trolls are out but that doesn't minimize the value of the evidence.

I don't believe he's saying that the enhanced photos aren't valuable.. he's reminding anyone who reads this thread that any photos which have been digitally enhanced represent conjecture, not absolute fact. That's an important distinction and I agree.

Quote (markBo52)

They did have a physical barrier of some sort. See the three red cones on the ramp in the attached photo? They are on the only path that can be easily used to reach the pile of interest. The other path is a ramp by the pool that is used by machinery and is easily controlled. And other photos show a red tape between the red cones.

If that 'barrier' existed to keep equipment from operating near that particular pile, there would be another barrier on the other side directly between the equipment operating on that side and that pile.

The simple answer, which he's repeated, is that we don't (can't) know why that pile is sitting there. We can, however, surmise certain things about how it appears in the photo. Namely, I can guarantee you that if something 'of interest' was found, they would not mark it with the same color they had been previously using to mark human remains. Procedures for crews working in these situations are extremely regimented.

It's also, in my opinion, VERY unlikely that this entire situation is going to be resolved because someone finds one little piece of bent rebar, or whatever. This failure, as far as we know today, was the result of systemic failures across the entire lifespan of the building from the initial design phase through construction, maintenance, and monitoring right up until the collapse.

In any event, I'm not sure what your intent is in continuing to belabor this point, but your posts appear to have a definite conspiratorial bent. I'm not sure why that is, but I think you're focusing on one tree rather than the forest.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (MarkBoB2)

They did have a physical barrier of some sort. See the three red cones on the ramp in the attached photo? They are on the only path that can be easily used to reach the pile of interest. The other path is a ramp by the pool that is used by machinery and is easily controlled. And other photos show a red tape between the red cones.

Those two cones spaced 20’ apart are the barrier? There are none in this picture which shows clear unimpeded access to the area.

You also didn’t answer my question about why they didn’t use a different color paint if it was something other than human remains.



Maybe there is something important there. But I don’t thinks it’s davits, scaffolding, Sasquatch, ac units, rooftop ventilation fans, tar paper, UAV debris, roof anchors, etc.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (tmwaits)

This is a good question to ask from the laypersons perspective so I will try and answer it based on my experience in design analysis and inspection of reinf conc structures for almost 30 years. The problem with a scenario where there is no trigger as you describe where the plaza deck has deteriorated and suddenly goes from stable to complete failure in less than about hour is this. Reinforced concrete almost never fails in this short of time without obvious signs of structural distress days, weeks months or years before the actual failure. In fact this is baked into the way reinforced concrete is designed such that failure is not brittle but gradual/ductile so that action can be taken prior to catastrophic collapse. Practically speaking, if there was no trigger then the slab should have shown more signs of deterioration like chunks of spalled concrete on the floor of the parking garage and heavy, noticeable cracking of the slab and beams well before the night of the collapse. The area where the failure occurred seems like a heavily trafficked, well lit part of the parking garage so you would think that problems in this area would have been noticed even by someone with zero knowledge of structures. I'm not saying it couldn't have collapsed without some trigger, nor that the slab wasn't underdesigned and deteriorated, but the evidence makes me lean more towards a trigger of some sort.

I would have expected a lot of concrete to falling into the garage in the months before the failure also. A Building Integrity video did mention that there was corrigated plastic on the garage ceiling under the planters used as a cheap fix to prevent water from dripping onto cars. The cracks above it could have grown to an alarming size without being visible.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (MarkBoB2 (Electrical))

then why has the recovery crew left this pile in place for two days when they have removed the debris around all other 94+ cases of human remains?

Most likely remains were already recovered and counted in 94+. Red paint stays behind. May I note that the location is approx where "teal shirt" appears in the toktok image. No one wants to hear that, I know.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Spartan5, let’s go back to what I actually wrote above. I made no claims that a wall collapsed. I wrote, “We know she heard the “collapsed wall” of the first collapse, which brought Sara Nir to the lobby to complain.” In this sentence, “collapsed wall” refers to Sara Nir’s interpretation of what she had heard at 1:10 in quotes in order to make it clear to readers that this was a witness report. Putting those words in quotes is a standard way to say “so-called”, as in “so-called collapsed wall.” It is from this NBC Miami interview:

“So I start to hear knocking sounds on the walls. I was sure that people were hanging pictures, and then it was more intense, and then about 1:10, the wall above me collapsed,” said Sara…”

Sara Nir also states it sounded like a wall collapsing above in the CNN interview I previously linked to, if you go to 1:00 in the video.) In the CNN interview I previously linked to, at about 1:45 in the video, Sara Nir also reports that Shamoka Furman said she also heard this, right before the garage collapse (which Gabe Nir calls the second stage of the three-stage collapse.)

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Eufalconimorph , thank you for explaining how that software works. I hadn't really considered what exactly the AI was doing, and ya that won't help us here.


Spartan and Markbob, regarding Red paint... if it does represent areas where remains were found.



Why are these 3-4 column (former columns) painted red? They are/were under what was the still standing part of the building.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (tmwaits1)

This is a good question to ask from the laypersons perspective so I will try and answer it based on my experience in design analysis and inspection of reinf conc structures for almost 30 years. The problem with a scenario where there is no trigger as you describe where the plaza deck has deteriorated and suddenly goes from stable to complete failure in less than about hour is this. Reinforced concrete almost never fails in this short of time without obvious signs of structural distress days, weeks months or years before the actual failure. In fact this is baked into the way reinforced concrete is designed such that failure is not brittle but gradual/ductile so that action can be taken prior to catastrophic collapse. Practically speaking, if there was no trigger then the slab should have shown more signs of deterioration like chunks of spalled concrete on the floor of the parking garage and heavy, noticeable cracking of the slab and beams well before the night of the collapse. The area where the failure occurred seems like a heavily trafficked, well lit part of the parking garage so you would think that problems in this area would have been noticed even by someone with zero knowledge of structures. I'm not saying it couldn't have collapsed without some trigger, nor that the slab wasn't underdesigned and deteriorated, but the evidence makes me lean more towards a trigger of some sort.

This is my experience also. I don't design large concrete structures of the type that failed. But, I have observed "failing" concrete decks and retaining walls where degradation of the reinforcing is causing distress.

I have also observed connection failure and can see that those failures can be sudden. In these cases the failures can be traced back to insufficient design or poor construction. They can reach a point of degradation or minor over load where failure can occur suddenly. This is not as common in concrete as it is in steel since the connections are commonly integral to the construction of the individual elements (beam and column reinforcing continuity). But, if this continuity is not provided in the design (such as grossly undersized reinforcing or inadequate development length of reinforcing) I see a potential for sudden failure.

BUT...This structure waited around until the rehab crew shows up and then falls down immediately. This is just too much of a coincidence to me. Something happened to trigger this event IMO.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

It's likely that they left that pile until last because yes, it is where the initial failure debris is likely to be and they wanted to look at it more closely. Even though that stuff had been moved around by the collapse and by the demolition and removal process.

But I'm sorry, I just don't see any of the things in your interpretation in those images.

I would also say that the presence of balcony railings in that rubble pile clearly shows that post-collapse material is mixed in there and so even if there is stuff from the roof, all that shows is that stuff from the roof ended up in the collapse pile, which isn't really a surprise.

@Sym P. le - yes, it's very clear from the 3D that you're looking at the floor (or maybe water right at floor level) as far back as that dark item running horizontally across the frame. It's one of the big mysteries to me, how that thing that looks like a planter box at M11.1 is apparently sitting on the floor, when it must have come from on (or above if you think it's fallen from higher up) the deck. How is it not sitting on 13" of slab and overburden?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)22 Jul 21 19:32)

Why are these 3-4 column (former columns) painted red?

Best guess, those column rebar dowels were painted red so people don't trip over them.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

CE3527 "Best guess, those column rebar dowels were painted red so people don't trip over them."

No, I don't think so, there are many just like them all around that basin that are not painted.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Honestly, I think it's because they're tripping hazards. The other remnants are much larger / less likely to be tripped over.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Optical98)

Spartan and Markbob, regarding Red paint... if it does represent areas where remains were found.

Why are these 3-4 column (former columns) painted red? They are/were under what was the still standing part of the building.

Separate the operational stages. USR, Forensic, Clean-Up. The marker type and color corresponds to what stage they were placed.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Structural engineer Sergio Breiterman... seems to have had an aura of um insufficient reinforcement and failed design for waterproofing.
Coral Gables 1975 (later housed police and fire dept.) cracks discovered months after completion, missing rebar (half of what the design called for, in areas) and troubles with water, the building leaking... $700,000 on repairs. "Before role in Surfside condo that fell, engineer had hand in another building mess" article sans paywall.

Just when will Construction be accountable for the work they do, instead of the usual crap of expecting an engineer on-site making sure work is being properly done.
We can't babysit Construction and I see contractors don't want to pay for engineer's time on-site. In Canada they are wishy-wash about who is responsible, with both sides pointing figures at each other and the result is a legal crack. The FIU pedestrian bridge collapse also had that dynamic, and nothing's changed.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

But they didn't paint these --

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Oh, thought of something... those columns marked in red.... those were the ones used for the demolition 7/4/21.
Strong possibility, they wanted it to fall in that direction.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (lucky555)

Just when will Construction be accountable for the work they do, instead of the usual crap of expecting an engineer on-site making sure work is being properly done.

I don't know what orbit you operate in but in mine, what you call 'usual crap' is non-existent. We don't sit around waiting for the engineer to do inspections for us. If they want to come to the site and walk things they are certainly welcome, but inspections aren't on them, they are on us.

When all an owner cares about is the bottom dollar, and is willing to scrape their engineers' and contractors' budget absolutely dry, this is the result.

Quote (lucky555)

We can't babysit Construction and I see contractors don't want to pay for engineer's time on-site.

Nor should they - the engineer doesn't work for the contractor, they work for the owner. If the owner isn't willing to shell out the amount of funding required for the engineer to do their job properly, that's an owner problem.

Similarly (not pointing fingers, just stating reality) engineers need to include the costs required for them to do their jobs in their quotes. It's become more and more frequent in the world I operate in for engineers to tack this on after the job is awarded, and owners are never happy about it. I've had to explain to more than one owner that the engineer hitting them with additional, not-previously-discussed costs to perform cursory inspections is not something I have control over.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Optical98 Do you have the source of those images? This forum downsizes them

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Ok here is a true story that Demented will appreciate perhaps more than anyone else. This happened in a nearby state to 'Because Florida'.



Apparently the Sub's crew decided they could make life much easier by backing over the curb and gutter in order to load their tools on flat-bed. BTW, this was a very large 'multi-state' commercial subcontractor, so not a Long Ranger Outfit..

The PM for this project left for 20 minutes to bring a burger back, and the next picture is what he saw upon arrival....



Notice anything odd about the right front wheel??

Well when he inquired as to WTF, the foremen said she/he had decided the D-9 Cat Dozer strapped to the axle of the truck would just pull it right out of that hole....

How many folks here, know why this is a bad tow point??? I think the picture explains it very well. The detached leaf spring went thru radiator, along with lots of expensive damage to this truck....

I have tried to protect the guilty by masking over the Company Name and Trade....

So let me ask, do you think we have a 'Suspect Work Force'? I know this PM very well, and this would have never happen if he had been there. I imagine they thought they would get away with it, while he was gone?

Edit: And this truck is larger than a 14000 dually F-350 Truck.....

Edit 2: I have a picture of BIG ASS Winch Arm wrecker it took to get the Truck out of the hole and to the repair shop! The D-9 was Unsuccessful....

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Thermopile,

The wheel is all the way against the bumper.. they pulled the front axel?

Oh you said that... I was looking at the pic and thinking it looks out of joint so to speak.

It probably crushed that curb too.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Optical98,

Yes that Sub had to do some concrete repair too after that stunt. Leaf Springs failed when Solid Front Axle was 'Yanked' by D-9.
Yes when pulling would not work, yanking was tried...... Truck had to be lifted out of hole....

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

After a long day of being forced to make stuff not to print, I appreciated that very much.

The last incident report I wrote, which was nearly 5 years ago now because I've decided to sink back to the levels of the jack legs and coast through work being sloppy (Sloppy to me is +/- 0.035" in the world I come from), still baffles me.

I received a call on a Saturday. Two workers decided to show up to move a piece of machinery from an interior office, through the warehouse, and to it's new location in a newly built machine room. The workers were not authorized to do this work unsupervised. Had this work been supervised, a number of things would not have happened.
A 2 ton stamping press was jacked up with a car jack (It says 2 tons on the side, as well as Pittsburg)
Once jacked up, the workers slid a moving dolly under one end and lowered the jack.
They moved over to the other side and jacked the press up again with the car jack.
Both workers in sandals now proceeded to move the machine. One pushed, one pulled on the handle of the jack.
I'll give them credit, they made it about 60-70ft to the location where the press went before it slid off the jack, crushing a mans foot leading to an on site toe amputation because his foot needed to be moved to be able to move the press which was pinning him to a CMU wall.

I don't have time to screen shot them now, but if anyone has time to go through the compliance issues letters from the town of surfside, there's letters in there that show the permitting issues of the area, how unpermitted work is O-fuckin-O-Kay, and how much unpermitted work has been done on and in the building since the 80's.


Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

There's some expectation a PE is going to hawkeye every step of construction. It's not practical from cost/efficiency to stand around all day on site and is a myth that needs to be dispelled.

"...five engineering experts consulted by The Miami Herald said that as the inspecting engineer on the project {Coral Gables} one of Breiterman’s primary jobs would have been ensuring that all rebar was placed correctly before the contractor pouring the concrete around it. If it wasn’t there, he and the contractor were responsible, all five agreed."
"...missing rebar was a “common error, not a big deal. Somebody just didn’t put them in.”"

Do you need any qualifications whatsoever to construct with rebar? We've got Biff with a hangover building rebar cages, the Godfather giving instructions to save a few bucks? Nobody inspecting before the pour?
I'm just wanting clarity as the Miami Herald article is again putting it on the engineer for construction deficiencies.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

No qualifications required in South Florida for steel work in erections.

Edit: My first thought was someone drilling tension cables in a railing install. Been back and forth with this little industry here, and if you think damaged rebar or tension cables ever gets reported, think back to the FIU collapse.
My current supervisor, the man who puts his name on the "this shit is ok" paper, can't read a tape measure.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Do they have to have a pulse? deejay

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Thats about it!

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of good companies here, with a ton of good crews.

But,
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/real-est...
This is nothing new. Construction is full of addicts too. No one knows if you're high or drunk when the supervisor is 200ft away in his little office not watching whats actually happening.


Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

*facepalm*


So, suspect workforce eh?

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

If you need no qualifications to install rebar, then the work surely does need inspection. Breiterman agreed to inspect the job. It appears he did not. And then he signed a paper that said "everything's fine".

He didn't have to "hawkeye" the job day and night. He had to show up before the pour, look into the forms, and say whether the no-qualified personnel did what he specified.

He apparently did not say "Half the rebar isn't here!"

But half the rebar wasn't there.


spsalso

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

It's not helped by the laws:
  • A while back, inspections by government inspectors were the rule.
  • But to keep taxes down to as little as possible, these inspections were delegated to the owner/engineer and called special inspections.
  • But Florida, in their infinite wisdom, have removed the Special Inspections altogether. They replaced it with threshold Inspections. Granted, this building would have been subject to Threshold Inspections, I think.
I do a lot of work in Florida and the contractors get away with whatever they can. But that's no difference than anywhere else. But they're more likely to be load tested in Florida than in Kentucky.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08



Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

One thing to also mention, this is the time of the year the snow birds are away. It's 90% humidity out, and I don't care what the weather stations say, after 8-10 hours outside in the hot sun with little water and shitty pay, it feels like 150*F with a fireplace above you.

Work is at a rush rush rush pace right now. Everything needs to be done before the snowbirds come back from NY and NJ in the winter. There can be no sign of construction, no dirt, no paint smell, nothing. The spent a lot of money and you bet your tits it's gunna be done by the time they get here in November.

Living in these buildings, you will hear unpermitted construction at 1AM. It's not uncommon for contractors to live in fully furnished units while the owners are away. Not going down that rabbit hole, I just only bring that up because I've worked with those guys, and I've seen their welds get the check from a CWI and PE. It looked like bird dookie.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (I've had to explain to more than one owner that the engineer hitting them with additional, not-previously-discussed costs to perform cursory inspections is not something I have control over.)


Unless you (the contractor) are not ready when the inspector/engineer arrives, or the work is incorrect and the inspector/ engineer has to come back again, or the concrete pump broke and the pour took 8 hours longer than planned, or the contractor can't read the plan and submits 87 RFI's about information that's already in the construction documents, or the contractor missed a bunch of dowels and needs recommendations on how to correct the problem (ASAP of course), or the contractor wants to change the design and the engineer has to spend hours on conference calls and reengineering the project, or or or or 😂

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Balcony damage extended into the interior?

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Gomer says 'Surprise, Surprise, Surprise'

Edit: Shoring down to ground level? Interesting.....

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Tighten her until she creaks, then back it off a quarter. It'll hold.


Also, shoring down to ground level? Who thought that was a good idea on that deck...|
I don't see that in the plans, but Im gunna go find that inspection sheet where he wrote there were no shoring plans on site.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Please define ground level? Top of parking deck or bottom of parking garage floor?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Thermopile)

Please define ground level? Top of parking deck or bottom of parking garage floor?
I hope the images of the work are properly archived.

They were there for the balcony restoration. Would they have known the deck they saw with the pool was just the roof of the parking garage? It's suspected a resident forgot that. It doesn't seem like this crew was all that good, and this is what was doing the excavation, rebar replacement, and concrete repair of columns, slabs, and building exterior.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Shoring should be specifically designed by shoring Engineer, and not just some generic 3 story shoring like you might do for new construction. These are old tired slabs, so that is not adequate.

I imagine they just thru up a 2x4 stud weather wall with no design considerations to load it would be carrying?

Edit: Generic meaning bracing down only 3 floors

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Does anyone else who's reads the field report of Permit 09-00000261 get the feeling that the majority of the work was unsupervised? This field report seems like it only had a supervisor present when "major" stuff was being fixed, after an incident of something being repaired before it was looked at. The majority of it is like someone wrote out instructions for the laborers for the day and told to take some cell phone pics.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Yes, weather walls will be constructed of the cheapest 2x4 and the highest quality OSB $20 will get you from the Lowes. I can go snap a picture right quick of an entire condo done up like this for shits n giggles.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08



Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Speaking of inspections, I will be babysitting a partial rough electrical inspection tomorrow.

Around here (California Bay Area), there certainly are building inspectors from the guvmint. And there are fees for building permits to pay them. I think it works well, as long as the aim is quality work.

As far as contractors "trying to get away with things", I am lucky enough to never have worked with anyone like that--got my license in 1980.
I do NOT doubt that there are some, uh, sleazebags in contracting around here. I just don't travel in their circles.

And the fewer the better.


spsalso

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Kilsheimer is saying that the basement walls could still collapse:

https://youtu.be/d_IwENgVTX0

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Well lookey here.



RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented (Industrial))

crushing a mans foot leading to an on site toe amputation

The same thing happened at a facility I once worked at. Crushed ankle and permanent disability resulted. Ironically an engineer was directing two unqualified people in the process. He was in too much of a hurry to call the porters. Also ironically there were once placards all over this company's facilities which read: " No job is so important and no service is so urgent-that we cannot take time to perform our work safely". But somewhere along the line these were discarded. You can figure out the name of the company from that slogan. Also I might add the just because someone has a PhD in materials science does not mean they should be directing the movement of heavy equipment.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

If you shore all of the balconies to the pool deck using 4"x4"x72" wooden logs, which slabs yield first if someone gets a little over zealous and wants to double make sure the balcony isn't gunna crash down on them from above, so they give it a little extra oomph on the handle? Never underestimate the torque a laborer on his 4th RedBull of the day can get out of a 12" handle on an acme screw, especially the little ones with something to prove.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

MDPD work being done offsite looks like the same NIST site. Now with all the cars there...much of it looks like a landfill.
Obviously still gathering owner personal effects etc.

https://youtu.be/vJkLBwmCbwA

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (spsalso (Electrical))

Quote (I do NOT doubt that there are some, uh, sleazebags in contracting around here)

Happy to hear you did not work for the guy who glued the sprinkler heads to the ceiling in Monterey/Pacific Grove - without any piping .

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)23 Jul 21 02:33
MDPD work being done offsite looks like the same NIST site. Now with all the cars there...much of it looks like a landfill.
Obviously still gathering owner personal effects etc.)

The steel is all breaking out of the concrete. I suppose they will weigh it at the end and compare the total with the plans. Would we take bets on the outcome?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

This is an interesting repair Circa 2003.







Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Do'h. 2 months before Hurricane Andrew came by and ripped our roofs off.


"Removal of 8" - 12" cap on top slab where planters are in front of condo. dowel in 4" into concrete #5 steel at 16" on center and install 3 #5 steel rod container in new cap (solid concrete. 3 areas are involved (TBtranscribed). Patch plates 18', 21', and 27" are length of concrete caps involved. "



At this point, I'm left wondering how much of this building was original concrete and steel besides the deep interior. Debris photos just got a whole whole lot more complicated.

Edit: This permit was issued. 7/30/1992. I wonder if work began prior to Andrew. Subsidence between 1993 and 1999 was it?
This would have been a mandatory evacuation zone, so I doubt anyone would have been on site to witness. Wind loads of that storm with sections of the deck missing would be an interesting simulation.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

$2,450 doesn't buy a proper drawing it seems. Is that a robot I see in there?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Looking through the documents I found this of interest. They had in 1996 done a bunch of crack repair in the garage area. Approximately 500 linear feet of repair.



I noticed the planter repair demented posted and was wondering which planter it was that they did the repair for.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@AusG

I think that's supposed to be the top of a column. 3 16" #5 steel inserted 4" into the column with the 12" remaining up. I see no indication in the drawing to bend them at a 90* angle to extend into the new slab surface, because potato drawing. A planter was going to cover it anyway so who cares if rebar sticks up.

Likely the repair and rebar we see in at least one of the deck core slabs, under the planter, possibly what we see in the tiktok video. That little area.

Today's South FL construction forecast is
#Fridayhighday
Work out at 3:30 so all the crews can get to the bank to cash their checks before the 9 to 5 desk people get out.

Inspectors, hawk eyes today. I cut it twice but it's still to short.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I also saw this of interest. Waterproofing, paver installation and garage repair in 1996.




Looking through all the documents it is really overwhelming. They have provided so much information. It seems like the building needed near constant maintenance. As a result I have decided that beach condos are a bad investment and I will exclude the thought of ever owning one when it comes time for me to plan for retirement.




RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented (Industrial)23 Jul 21 10:26
Do'h. 2 months before Hurricane Andrew came by and ripped our roofs off.


"Removal of 8" - 12" cap on top slab where planters are in front of condo. dowel in 4" into concrete #5 steel at 16" on center and install 3 #5 steel rod container in new cap (solid concrete. 3 areas are involved (TBtranscribed). Patch plates 18', 21', and 27" are length of concrete caps involved. ")


Look closely at the hand drawn sketch, on the permit application, for the "305 (Stainless ?) Steel Rods Continuous", Not three # 5 rebars as best as I can read......

Smooth Rod, and not rebar???

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

2

Quote (Spartan5)



As others have told you repeatedly, red paint denotes the presence or potential for human remains. Most likely that a cadaver dog had hit on this area of the pile.

None of your the items identified through your theoretical squinting have visible paint on them.

The 8 days I was there, red paint was never used for that reason.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

8-12 inch cap on top of slab (structural slab?). How does this crew know where 8-12" topping ends and structural slab begins?? Without core sample?

Why 8-12" cap on top of structural elevated slab in the first place???

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

The lipstick is coming off this pig...... Sorry no pig emoji to choose from, so I made next best choice.... for Dan Mullen...

elephant

PS Why would a developer pay $100 Million for this Site?

Answer, because he gets in and gets out quickly, and 10 years is his Statue of Limitations.........and they abolish each unique LLC after each project, so legally that entity does Not exist.

Edit: And now days Developers just create a unique LLC for each project to limit liability for those 10 years!

Also ask you self why most Apartment/Condo Complexes are built with Goodman Equipment, but the maintenance crew always changes to another brand when replacing the OEM?

Part of the answer: Goodman will sell direct to contractor on massive buys like multi-family housing as very attractive prices..... But when you go to replace one a time, the price is the same for Goodman as say some of the other competition.....

I will just let you decide what the rest of the equation is....

EDIT: And I should not fail to mention, developer abolishes Unique LLC at end of project, so LLC no longer exists to sue for what little assets were ever in LLC in first place, and the complex now has a new owner or record who is NOT the developer......

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (spinspcdrt)

Unless you (the contractor) are not ready when the inspector/engineer arrives, or the work is incorrect and the inspector/ engineer has to come back again, or the concrete pump broke and the pour took 8 hours longer than planned, or the contractor can't read the plan and submits 87 RFI's about information that's already in the construction documents, or the contractor missed a bunch of dowels and needs recommendations on how to correct the problem (ASAP of course), or the contractor wants to change the design and the engineer has to spend hours on conference calls and reengineering the project

All of those scenarios are vastly different than what I'm getting at it, and I'm fairly certain you know that.

The entire point of having engineers inspect along with contractors and third parties is to combat the fact that a lot of the things we inspect are complicated to construct, difficult to verify, and critical details matter. Defense in depth, by having multiple parties get eyes on critical assemblies, are the only way things get correctly built.

You can complain all you want about contractors who 'can't read the plan' but ultimately unless every engineer goes to complete 3D models of everything (which would be a ridiculous standard) there are always going to be details that are not trivial to interpret and install correctly. It's a fact of life when you're drawing complicated things on flat sheets of paper.

The point is, chalking this up to a shitty contractor gets no one anywhere. Everyone involved has significant culpability (contractor, engineer, city, third part inspectors, owner).

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Thermopile - I think this is a topping they added to the flat structural slab to introduce slope towards the pool deck drains. The problem with that in addition to the added load, is it left a cold joint between the sloped topping slab and flat structural slab, which would be a nice place for water to infiltrate towards, stay, and cause damage to the structural slab. As far as removal goes, they would have to take care but since there's this natural joint there it should be very evident when you get to the structural slab and the weaker bond "should" allow the topping slab to separate from the structural without damaging the structural slab. A better practice would have been to slope the structural slab, which is common to see on parking garages constructed today.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (CE3527 (Civil/Environmental)23 Jul 21 13:15
)


Thanks CE3527! Thanks makes sense, but it also tells me that we are doing a single sided slope over the whole elevated slab, thus starting thick at say Collins and getting thiner towards the pool? I Don't see how a single gradual slope over that large of area is wise? Seems like Morabito's approach like you would on a roof, with multiple slopes to central drains very often is far better approach to remove as much water as fast as possible to prevent soaking into structural layer?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@thermopile
Good eye dude.

Yes, 5/8" 305 and 308L rods, smooth, get used like that. Here are our extras.



Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I also have to ask, when did construction switch from cast iron drain pipes to PVC? Memory seems to think 1980 or so was beginning of transition?

The reason I ask, is that in a salt water environment, cast iron or galvanized pipe drains would not fair well, and would be subject to leaks. In my world galvanized pipe was used for plumbing drains, except for cast iron sewers. I am sure residential transitioned faster than commercial to PVC.

A lot of houses had galvanized water pipes under ground from street and inside houses. The useful life was way less than 40 years in a non salt water environment. So I can image a lot less in Florida on the reclaimed Ocean.

Interesting side note hear for Sparky's, is that the galvanized plumbing pipe was used for earth ground back in the day. When Galvanized under ground water pipe from street to house was replaced with PVC, very few folks were savvy enough to realize they just lost their earth ground......

And in lots of cases, the earth ground now followed the black iron gas line to earth ground. Guess what happens at corrugated flex connections to gas lines, during lightning storms??? If not properly grounded.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, In my world away from Oceans and Salt Water, we would never won't to give up the deformed bar gripping strength in concrete to use stainless smooth rod? Nor the expense or loss of strength per pound of dead weight...

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Thermopile

You referring to the condo game John Goodman plays with his DC's down here? Wouldn't surprise me.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I can now see why Surfside would be releasing the permitted work orders on file concerning Champlain South. It is a great way to build a defense of this was a developer/builder/engineer/architect/condo association/maintenance contractor issue, and not one Surfside could be responsible for.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, I am sure all the 'small' aggregate fits nicely in those 1/8” to 3/16" slots?

Edit: And I am sure we dado every foot or two?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I suspect the statute of limitations of 10 years mentioned in this topic does not apply to criminal charges.


spsalso

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Thermopile)



Interesting side note hear for Sparky's, is that the galvanized plumbing pipe was used for earth ground back in the day. When Galvanized under ground water pipe from street to house was replaced with PVC, very few folks were savvy enough to realize they just lost their earth ground......

And in lots of cases, the earth ground now followed the black iron gas line to earth ground. Guess what happens at corrugated flex connections to gas lines, during lightning storms??? If not properly grounded.



"Back in the day" there was no earth ground, as knob and tube was not a grounded system then.

Now, back in MY day the galvanized (or copper, as I have now) pipe coming to the house was ONE of the system grounds IF it was long enough and made of metal. There was also a ground rod. There was also a bond at the service to the incoming utility neutral which was almost always grounded "out there".

IF the water pipe ground no longer worked, and IF the ground rod connection failed, and IF the utility ground failed (yes, it happens), then you've lost your official ground(s). And fun and games can commence. Since "all metallic piping systems" must be bonded to the electrical ground system, a metal gas line would indeed be connected to that potentially ungrounded system. And quite possibly the water lines in the house would, too.

I fondly remembering working on a '70's house that had been replumbed. I found a short length of pipe where the original electrician had attached his water pipe ground clamp. The plumber hadn't moved the clamp to his new system. Just 4' of pipe under the house with a ground clamp.


spsalso

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, we've contemplated where they may have stored the large tar kettle at night... someone earlier that he'd seen them stored inside condo garages even.



Could it be stored and locked behind this utility gate? And where does that lead to? Is it a room on the 1st floor or does it go into a garage storage area? On the plans it looks to be called a Transfer Vault? It doesn't make sense they'd have those gates at the end of the lobby hallway. The window in front of that truck is the Kitchen off of the Rec Room.

I think there was a fire in this area.


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

With the invent of DC controlled AC motors, I have seen lots of houses built in the 1930’s to 1970’s or so, where primary meter base ground was inadequate and decayed. And main house ground was galvanized pipe. Back in the day, black iron pipe was nippled to device or copper flare tubing was last mile connect. But then came corrugated thin wall flex for last mile on gas appliances. I have repaired gas leaks in corrugated flex gas connections where the lightning energy burned a hole in flex gas line. Black pipe can handle surge. In our area, meter base requires two 8 foot ground rods, bonded together and black iron must be bonded to same meter ground so flex is protected.

Edit DC motor controllers are very sensitive to voltage change. 70 volt spike can kill controller.

PS 1930’s is not necessarily limiting range, just my typical experience range.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Thermopile )

Interesting side note hear for Sparky's, is that the galvanized plumbing pipe was used for earth ground back in the day. When Galvanized under ground water pipe from street to house was replaced with PVC, very few folks were savvy enough to realize they just lost their earth ground......

Driven grounding electrodes made of copper rods or galvanized pipe have been the primary grounding means for a very long time in dwelling units. It is required to bond to metal plumbing pipes and gas lines where available as a secondary grounding means. Local electrical inspector told me not to bother bonding to the gas line on the last house I did. Sometimes we do what the authority having jurisdiction wants even if we don't agree.

I have never seen PVC used for city water to house connections but I'm sure that method us used in some locations.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

1/32” tolerance. hourglass

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

SwinnyGG said:

Quote (SwinnyGG)

It's also, in my opinion, VERY unlikely that this entire situation is going to be resolved because someone finds one little piece of bent rebar, or whatever. This failure, as far as we know today, was the result of systemic failures across the entire lifespan of the building from the initial design phase through construction, maintenance, and monitoring right up until the collapse.
In any event, I'm not sure what your intent is in continuing to belabor this point, but your posts appear to have a definite conspiratorial bent. I'm not sure why that is, but I think you're focusing on one tree rather than the forest.

Why do some engineers want to look at objects in photos? The answer is that a trigger for the collapse has not yet been found, and the engineers looking at photos believe that they can see what triggered the collapse. This does not imply a conspiracy on the part of these engineers. They are merely trying to help determine the cause of the collapse, just like the many structural engineers who believe they already know the cause of the collapse. In fact, one might wonder if there is a conspiracy on the part of some engineers to avoid considering any cause of the collapse that might place the blame on their specific profession’s responsibilities in the collapse.

If one cannot find a trigger for the collapse, then one can never know whether the true cause of the collapse has been found. This leaves the public with a very uneasy feeling about building security. For example, Morabito Consultants’ report warned that Champlain Tower South was structurally deficient, citing spalling with exposed rebar in the pool area, spalling on the balconies, spalling on the drive ramp, and water collection in the parking area and on the pool deck. Yet, the pool area still remains standing today without losing a drop of water after everything else has collapsed, the drive ramp has never collapsed on its own, no balcony has ever fallen on its own, and drains were put into the pool deck ten years ago. The water in the basement parking area was a real concern of all building residents, but it was never addressed how this problem would be fixed. Instead, a large part of the Morabito proposal was involved with non-structural improvements, like installing roof anchors, repairing stucco, repainting, replacing air conditioners, and improving planters at the building entrance. It almost seems to the public like the Morabito report was using mild structural problems as a way to scare the residents into paying a larger sum for what is essentially cosmetic repairs.

When the public hears about how structures are compromised by water causing spalling, they wonder why the Champlain Tower East hasn’t collapsed when spalling in one of its basement columns was far worse than the spalling seen on any column in the Champlain Tower South parking basement. When the public hears about how structures are compromised by water pooling in the basement garage, they wonder why the Marriott Inn Surfside hasn’t collapsed when it had several feet of water in its basement garage, yet the Champlain South building collapsed when it had only a few inches of water in its basement garage. Since these other buildings are still standing when their structural problems appear to be far worse than those of Champlain Tower South, the public gets an uneasy feeling about not only whether the true cause of the collapse has been found, but whether structural engineers truly understand why buildings collapse.

Somehow we must reassure the public that structural engineers know how to design buildings that do not collapse, that foundation engineers know how to control water intrusion into basements, that construction companies are held to rigid standards that avoid collapse, that inspectors are honest and knowledgeable about the building specifications, and that building maintenance personnel adhere to the original design specifications. One way to reassure the public that this process is being followed is to find the trigger for this building’s collapse. Another way is to strengthen regulations when they are insufficient. One thing that comes to mind is a regulation about certifying the building’s foundations relative to water ingress. Another might be to identify the person responsible for controlling roof loading during maintenance work, deck loading to prevent adding sand and paving tiles without removing the original tiles, and floor loading during condo unit improvements. Another regulation might be to demand x-raying when taking cores at regular intervals or when drilling into the cement structure to install objects like roof anchors to avoid damaging the rebar. Yet another regulation might be to inspect roofs and decks after a heavy rain to determine if water is removed promptly and thoroughly.

In summary, I would like to repeat the submissions of tmwaits1 and Colostruct above:

Quote (Colostruct)

22 Jul 21 19:36
Quote (tmwaits1)
This is a good question to ask from the laypersons perspective so I will try and answer it based on my experience in design analysis and inspection of reinf conc structures for almost 30 years. The problem with a scenario where there is no trigger as you describe where the plaza deck has deteriorated and suddenly goes from stable to complete failure in less than about hour is this. Reinforced concrete almost never fails in this short of time without obvious signs of structural distress days, weeks months or years before the actual failure. In fact this is baked into the way reinforced concrete is designed such that failure is not brittle but gradual/ductile so that action can be taken prior to catastrophic collapse. Practically speaking, if there was no trigger then the slab should have shown more signs of deterioration like chunks of spalled concrete on the floor of the parking garage and heavy, noticeable cracking of the slab and beams well before the night of the collapse. The area where the failure occurred seems like a heavily trafficked, well lit part of the parking garage so you would think that problems in this area would have been noticed even by someone with zero knowledge of structures. I'm not saying it couldn't have collapsed without some trigger, nor that the slab wasn't underdesigned and deteriorated, but the evidence makes me lean more towards a trigger of some sort.

This is my experience also. I don't design large concrete structures of the type that failed. But, I have observed "failing" concrete decks and retaining walls where degradation of the reinforcing is causing distress.

I have also observed connection failure and can see that those failures can be sudden. In these cases the failures can be traced back to insufficient design or poor construction. They can reach a point of degradation or minor over load where failure can occur suddenly. This is not as common in concrete as it is in steel since the connections are commonly integral to the construction of the individual elements (beam and column reinforcing continuity). But, if this continuity is not provided in the design (such as grossly undersized reinforcing or inadequate development length of reinforcing) I see a potential for sudden failure.

BUT...This structure waited around until the rehab crew shows up and then falls down immediately. This is just too much of a coincidence to me. Something happened to trigger this event IMO.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (spsalso (Electrical)23 Jul 21 15:38)


Spsalso, Aren’t the main panel neutrals and grounds connected, thus grounding of meter base grounds neutrals and later day ground wire. Even after knob and tube, I have lived in houses with only two wires to outlets, with no ground wire.

BTW, I have experienced first hand a ‘Floating Neutral’ while working on HVAC unit at condo complex. Wood frame condo’s. Between my earth grounded butt and my hands, I discovered I was least path of resistance. I explained floating neutral to customer and why he had to get Condo Association to fix, before I could fix his unit. I referred him to an Electrical buddy, who came out. Later after electrician fixed floater, customer told me, he thought I was blowing smoke up his ass talking about floating neutrals.

Edit: Customer told me it was a building transformer problem. My buddy told customer he saw so many code violations while testing for floating voltage, that he was never there. And immediately inform your condo association.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (spsalso (Electrical)23 Jul 21 15:38)

Quote (and IF the utility ground failed (yes, it happens),)

Not so far " back in the day " here - the power pole beside my driveway was smoking - from below the ground,
Power company was called - the next pole with transformer had lost its ground, there was a covered ground line attached to the smoking pole and heading below grade, and its connection was not secure.
So there is current thru grounding conductors.
I have always been a bit fascinated by the "earth ground" as a return to complete a circuit. How many amps of 450KV ( or something like that) are returning to a large generating plant? O M G we are electrocuting our only planet !! This is WALLY all over again. Disney predicted this !
And due to the resistance in the earth, heat is created in the ground and causing global warming ! So the seas rise and condos fall. I need to talk to the attorneys for the condo owners.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Vance Wiley (Structural))

I have always been a bit fascinated by the "earth ground" as a return to complete a circuit. How many amps of 450KV ( or something like that) are returning to a large generating plant?

The earth is an excellent conductor when you factor in the cross sectional area involved. Also given the formula for power the higher the voltage the lower the current if power is constant.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)23 Jul 21 15:53
Demented, we've contemplated where they may have stored the large tar kettle at night... someone earlier that he'd seen them stored inside condo garages even.)


Optical98, The service drive is directly behind the area you circled in green. Once in that area to the immediate right or corner location appears to be the electrical transformer vault feeding power to the building.... Not a Transfer Vault.

Edit: All of that is on first level, not garage level. I imagine the transformers are still filled with flammable liquids???

Quick Duck Duck Go yields this quote: "Liquid filled transformers can be filled with a variety of liquids with mineral oil being the most common choice for outdoor use, though oil filled transformers can be used indoors if enclosed in a vault."

Good old mineral oil has so many uses!!! Being phased out though in a lot of application like AC or HP compressor lubricants.....


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Thermopile)



Spsalso, Aren’t the main panel neutrals and grounds connected, thus grounding of meter base grounds neutrals and later day ground wire. Even after knob and tube, I have lived in houses with only two wires to outlets, with no ground wire.


Yes, there is ONE point in a building where they are connected: at the service. This is also where the grounding electrode conductors (ground rod, water pipe) land. The gas lines can be bonded (bonded being slightly different than grounding) anywhere accessible, usually at the water heater.

Grounding in houses and other small buildings grew in interesting ways. I've seen both knob-and-tube and early romex with 18 ga bare copper wire strung separately and wrapped around a box mounting nail (Yuk!!). Also, for awhile, although the outlets were grounded, non-grounding receptacles were used. Things have definitely improved, though I'm NOT impressed with AFCI. At this time.

Speaking of knob-and-tube, the installation quality was generally far above most work these days. And the design was really quite elegant and reasonable. I generally suggest my customers leave it alone in places like bedrooms and hallways.

Quote:



BTW, I have experienced first hand a ‘Floating Neutral’ while working on HVAC unit at condo complex. Wood frame condo’s. Between my earth grounded butt and my hands, I discovered I was least path of resistance. I explained floating neutral to customer and why he had to get Condo Association to fix, before I could fix his unit. I referred him to an Electrical buddy, who came out. Later after electrician fixed floater, customer told me, he thought I was blowing smoke up his ass talking about floating neutrals.


Some fun, eh? I've run into it once in an auto repair shop. They were getting all kinds of voltages that were NOT 120. Turns out their water pipe ground was not working (and being an old building, there was no other grounding electrode). But there was of course, more. The job of that water pipe ground was NOT to clamp the neutral to ground. It ALSO turns out that the utility had a bad ground for THEIR supplying neutral. First response was "It's not us; it's you." Further discussion convinced them to come out and fix their problem. And I secured the ground clamp. And billed my (happy) customer.


spsalso

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Thermopile,

And right below that area we see it partially dropped into the parking garage... and we can see the trash containers that were probably housed behind the service gates, ready to wheel out on collection days.





And large pipes that used to connect to the Generator room, seen broken.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

As-built it was almost certainly an oil filled / oil cooled transformer. On one of either the site or basement plans, there's a subterranean oil tank for it below / near the transformer vault. I could be wrong, but I think it's below the basement slab, and there was an access manhole somewhere outside the building.

The vent on the solid wall to the right (west) of the service entrance is for the transformer vault.

It is roughly where the stubborn post-collapse fire was. Transformer oil could have been fuel for that, but that's pure speculation.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Vance Wiley)



Not so far " back in the day " here - the power pole beside my driveway was smoking - from below the ground,
Power company was called - the next pole with transformer had lost its ground, there was a covered ground line attached to the smoking pole and heading below grade, and its connection was not secure.
So there is current thru grounding conductors.
I have always been a bit fascinated by the "earth ground" as a return to complete a circuit. How many amps of 450KV ( or something like that) are returning to a large generating plant? O M G we are electrocuting our only planet !! This is WALLY all over again. Disney predicted this !
And due to the resistance in the earth, heat is created in the ground and causing global warming ! So the seas rise and condos fall. I need to talk to the attorneys for the condo owners.



Yes, grounds are interesting. In theory, all the neutral return current in a house travels out through the overhead (or underground) neutral wire. BUT. That neutral wire is also connected to your water pipe and ground rod. There is NOTHING to stop happy little electrons from choosing that route to travel home.

My house had a galvanized steel "foundation cap" at ground level. Right near a ground rod and the water pipe clamp. And that galvanized steel gradually disappeared over the years in a radial pattern centered on those two items. It's been replaced with copper.

You wanna talk ground return? Consider electric railroad locomotives. They pick up from a single overhead wire, and return ONLY through the earth. 5000HP, 25,000V, 150A.

Yup, lotsa electrons going about their business.


spsalso

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Thermopile (Aerospace))

Speaking of knob-and-tube, the installation quality was generally far above most work these days.

Yeah, I did not replace it for the ceiling light circuits (low amps) in my home and would have to rip out ceilings. For everything else yes because the power consumption these days for everything has gone up from the time K&T was in use. Plus the age of the wire is a factor. No problem with insurance depending on where you are and the usage. Not starting a discussion on that (hopefully).

Edit: oops wrong source for quote. Meant to quote spsalso (Electrical)

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Optical98)

And right below that area we see it partially dropped into the parking garage... and we can see the trash containers that were probably housed behind the service gates, ready to wheel out on collection days.

Yes, that's roughly at the inner end of the service corridor / dock. The surviving columns, where the slab has only dropped about a foot are D2 and D5. Hidden in the collapse, not far into it are E2 and E4 (E5 does not exist). If you catch the longer video showing firefighters drilling there, you can positively identify the location from the unusual double column on the left at the start of the video. That's A2 & B2, if memory serves.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (zebraso (Mechanical))


Quote (Not starting a discussion on that (hopefully).)


Sorry, I was just killing time, while we are in the terminal waiting period before we receive any new information, or actually some real validated evidence........ flip

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08




Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Thermopile (Aerospace))

Sorry, I was just killing time

Perfectly fine by me. I was just referring to the codes issues with K&T. But.... it's relevant, because it illustrates the catastrophes that await if you do not update old infrastructure. The notion of the transformer oil catching fire if it did has a bearing on the failure to rescue at least one person. It's not trivial by any means.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I found the mechanical and electrical inspection report where it says they replaced the cast iron sanitary and storm drain pipes in the garage, but did not mention the vertical risers to the units nor the vertical pipes to the roof..... If Garage pipes needing replacing, wonder if vertical pipes and unit horizontal and vertical cast iron drains were source of lots of inside the building water leaks???

So if I remember my MetaPhysics correctly, that means that my crap quickly drops thru the slab under me, and is now in cast iron sanitary drains in the ceiling of the unit below me, on it's way horizontally to the vertical stand pipes in the plumbing chases. Thus same scenario for my neighbor above, except now I am the low man....

I doubt many folks on this forum, have actually worked with yokum and hot lead, to seal the hubs of cast iron sanitary sewer piping....But I would image these joints with building movement would start leaking, and of course cast iron pipe is very brittle.... I see in garage where they used what I call 'No-Hubs' to join the vertical cast iron pipes to the new PVC horizontal runs.

I have never wanted to live in a Condo, and after understanding how expensive it is to maintain a RC building on reclaimed Ocean, it confirms all my fears... To me it reminds of a Frat House, where is someone is having a party, everybody gets to enjoy it, till is over....... flush2

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

To add to that, ever since Covid, the city waters have been flooded with chlorine. That could have exacerbated any issues, as well as in other buildings.
https://www.miamidade.gov/global/news-item.page?Md...

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I do think there may have been a fire above the garage in the early stages of the collapse, the actor from Argentina mentioned a horrible smell when they got off the elevator entering the Lobby, not while in the garage. Many talk of the thick dust from the collapsing, but within that dust there was smoke too, you can see it billowing out right over the service area. Yes, other fires did start in the garage once the ceiling fell onto cars, but there were various combustibles in that vicinity along with the kitchen being right there too.
Ugh, why don't they come out n say where those tar kettles were found...

Also while looking thru my various garage pics, at closer inspection -



Am I seeing a wheel in a column?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented (Industrial))

the city waters have been flooded with chlorine

Other areas of Florida use ozonation to combat the smell of the water from the upper aquifer. By combined chlorine treatment I assume they mean chlorimine. But that kills tropical aquarium fish (which they mention) by itself pretty well and it is harder to remove bound chlorine. Free chlorine is easy to remove. So if they are giving warning to fish keepers about increased free chlorine it must have been a whole lot of it. The issue of chlorimine by itself is already controversial for the damage it does to copper because of it's ammonia content and some authorities add silicates for protection. Otherwise: Pin holes.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

It's enough to turn silver and aluminum a dull shade of black in about 30 minutes on the days the system is flushed. It's almost been like pool water, but not quite. There was stupidness about pool water neutralizing covid a year ago.

@Optical98
That's a vehicle rim and tire and the vehicle it's attached to.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented (Industrial))

There was stupidness about pool water neutralizing covid a year ago.

Why would they think before they act (react)? No reason to start now. They might be more worried about amoebas. I don't think I have heard anything about covid surviving in municipal water supplies. Is that even a thing?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

http://www.floridahealth.gov/environmental-health/...
Now apply the same dumb logic of construction crews to politicians of the area.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Optical98 (Computer))

Am I seeing a wheel in a column?

Yeah, Wheel hit column and knocks away some concrete. Probably happens every other day. More interesting is what it exposed under the surface. What the hell is that? Some kind of prior repair?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Optical98, I think this is tire.... See arrow...
I cannot tell that car actually impacted column as clearance from fender well to tire looks fairly normal? But I can not say it din't hit column either.
Looks more like rear of car than front to me...


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented (Industrial))

I know it's not a picture of a CR-V but it gets the point across.

I see what you are saying with the diagram/markup. Any concrete damage that appears does not have to be from the car. I thought part of the car was appearing as the column itself. My bad. But I did NOT enlarge it so I could see it better. So that is my excuse.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Jeez Demented....that's a chair? And you just happen to know the model of the car too o.o

Markbob needs you on his team.. j/k

I'll meander back to my fire inquiry now...

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Zebraso)

I see what you are saying with the diagram/markup. Any concrete damage that appears does not have to be from the car. I thought part of the car was appearing as the column itself. My bad. But I did NOT enlarge it so I could see it better. So that is my excuse.
All is good. I do a lot of automotive stuff so body lines stick out to me.

The thing I said is a chair though, I'm just guessing. Looks like one of those cheap plastic I need something to stand on chairs. The Supra is definitely a Supra though.


Seriously though, it's a white 2012-2014 CR-V, as can be seen in this photo. Seems to just be parked in it's space.
https://i.imgur.com/2LENVk8.png

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Thermopile,

Yeah, the shadow line is odd, it's tall for a car. It was the body line (that Demented pointed out) that I was seeing as chipped or broken concrete, and then could not unsee it.

I'm not even on Team "Vehicle rams column" (hypothesis)

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

It's a tall SUV This one just doesn't have the alloy 19" rims the fancier ones have.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Optical98, I saw broken concrete at first too, like a huge chunk was missing from column. BTW, the chair looks like a non-hermitically sealed AC compressor to me......afro2

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

So it's the back of this car? wth...I can't orient myself to the angle of it and the Supra.



I need to re-add my original image of the Supra

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I think so, and the red pipe is on top of Supra. We can see end of open pipe on top of Supra in other pic.

If you go thru the pain of looking back in the forum, you can find some nice overlays of parking spots in relation to where they are at lobby or ground level, along with lots of other good orientation stuff

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

But wouldn't you see those tail-lights on the CRV, they're not high and wrap around the side?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Thermopile (Aerospace))

BTW, the chair looks like a non-hermitically sealed AC compressor to me......

You can tell that it's not still sealed? That's some powerful perception. wink

Maybe the line got re-crimped before it broke free. Look closer!

Edit note: I'm not being sarcastic, I actually get the joke. This stuff never comes out right in texting. Just in case.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Well shit.
Dumb dumb here was wrong.

Right rear.



I'm so confused right now. Them be airbags, dust, or a sunvisor in a parking garage?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Oh shit, those air bags look deployed

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Optical98, Please post a link to that video again, I need to watch it closer....

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Has to be from the collapse. Why would the passenger side curtains deploy with no obvious crumpling of the areas one would expect? Those definitely are deployed airbags. Could even be a sunshade inside?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmleL6I2T5M

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (You can tell that it's not still sealed? That's some powerful perception. wink)


I think it is an old GE Mil Spec Compressor from a Trane, back in the day when "It is hard to stop a Trane" was a valid advertising statement......laser

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, Could that red pipe on top of car caused the air bag to deploy? Could be sunshade too...

But sure looks like two different air bags to me......

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented (Industrial))

Car vs column eh?

I'm not too sure where I am on car vs column. Seeing that many cars parked to so many columns and knowing soccer mom's in SUV gives me the willies. Having said that I wonder more about the long term effect or repeated insults and the column integrity (assume you read into that the approved repaired techniques) from otherwise nonthreatening incident. And maybe it was not assessed correctly in the end. We trust that the last part cannot happen. And then factor in the frequency and probability of some columns to get hit based on traffic lanes of higher speed (i.e. down the entrance way). And it boils down to maybe a certain column got hit one too many times at just too high of a speed. It's unlikely but I think about it anyway. What kind of event could be set in motion here? Is it even possible?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

So, that 1000G storage tank for fuel.

These were posted before, taken by one of the crane operators on site. Of everything removed, they left that rubble pile, and those 3 beams. The rubble pile stood out before to me but I passed it off as nothing. I know the car thing is more interesting however.


Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Thermopile)

Demented, Could that red pipe on top of car caused the air bag to deploy? Could be sunshade too...

But sure looks like two different air bags to me......
I highly doubt it. Usually a massive jolt to a parked vehicle (such as a building collapse), can make the tilt sensor send a "hey we flipped over" signal to the ECU and deploy all the airbags. But airbags and Honda are a different engineering failure thread on their own. I have personally seen Honda's leave the factory with airbags, but no means of the interior trim or dashboard allowing the bags to deploy through (This was in 2008-2010). It's very likely Honda changed to make it super easy for airbags to deploy in light of the whole ZDX fiasco where they missed almost all the laser etching.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, Which leads to fuel leak causing an explosion in that area, under ground?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Per the 2018 structural report, the tank was rusted out and needed to be replaced again. 2nd time, and the contractor who replaced it the first time was advised to use a fiberglass style or non-rusting tank. So, fuel leaking (diesel), although wont cause an explosion, definitely isn't going to be good if it's leaking around a tar kettle that may have been left on. There was reports of a nasty odor right?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented (Industrial))

Them be airbags, dust, or a sunvisor in a parking garage?

I thought I saw the tidy bowl man in a rowboat in that pic. Ok I'm done with humor for now.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I'm putting my inconel hat on for this one.

What if more stress throughout the night was constantly put on that badly deteriorated garage access ramp as more and more people were coming home, and what we don't see in the TikTok video is a collapse of sections of the parking garage ramp?

That area was heavily spalled. That steel beam, which was an amazing idea, which was also reported to have been rusted out. What if that was holding weight it wasn't intended to anymore after drilling of roof anchors damaged a poorly repaired, and poured before inspection, concrete beam on the roof. The one holding up the cooling tower, was above this area too, yes? Is that why the TikTok video pans up briefly?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Is that new concrete beam directly over the ramp area?

Edit: Cooling Tower is directly over service drive near Optical98’s pictures

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Food for thought.

Maybe 250000 lb on that column. Assuming 20 ft OC columns. 12 floors. 65 PSF MINIMUM dead load. I’m thinking that compression with a 16” sq column would take way more force to topple than delivered by a Honda in a parking lot even if the connections were gone. Friction counts too!

Assuming friction of concrete to concrete is .4 (low). We have to place some 100000 lb laterally to move the column.

Someone want to check my math? These are just back of the envelope idea of the possible load on each column.

I believe failure of the columns required significant contribution from other structural elements to generate enough load to fail.

The caveat would be IF these columns were way more deteriorated than photos I’ve seen.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, that red beam is haunting, because we know once the east end of it lost it's footing, that huge unit took a long bite out of
the #4 units, pulling down everything in it's path.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I'm still trying to find the exact beam that was replaced. The field reports are not fully, or correctly filled out and it seems half of the pages are missing. That could just be the parking ramp; a 20ft section give or take.


Edit: @colostruct
That's why I've been trying to add up all the weight of the added layers of tile, marble, etc. There was a lot more gravity on those columns than there should have been in spots.

Edit 2: @Optical98
If you look at the beam too, those welds are anything but acceptable. There was no joint prep it seems, and the single pass of 7018 seems to heavily favor the plate. I doubt there is any meaningful penetration on the beam itself. The likelyhood of the mill scale having been ground away so white metal is visible is very slim too. On the beach, you leave that millscale on. It helps with the corrosion resistance.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented

2” of flooring would weigh somewhere around 30 PSF maximum. That’s a thick floor heavy floor and would be conservative. That adds up to a load of 12k per floor(but that is unlikely). MAYBE we could say it was 75 k total increase. On a 16” column that’s 300 PSI increase.

IMO, UNLESS we had really really bad concrete in several columns, I find it hard to believe that the initial failure was a column.

BUT, if a slab were to fail, the height of that column now doubles and there might well be a hinge at the location where the slab was. Now, consider that maybe 5 columns had this go on, we have a major instability potential in the building. Even more so would be a failed transfer beam which might be able to rip that hinge apart.



RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

How would it affect it if columns had been incorrectly repaired and the large sections of replaced concrete and mortar had become mechanically dethatched from the parent column, but only held in place because 3"-4" of rebar305 stainless rods extended in places holding it? Plus the heavy rains from the day before with a deck and roof that floods? There seems to be more trouble finding good concrete than finding bad.

Bring something to 80% it's load rating enough times...



RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented (Industrial))

I'm putting my inconel hat on for this one.

Mine is mu metal. Occam's razor has nothing on it. I'll take it off when Kilsheimer mentions Occam. To me that is what you say when you have no data or theories left to pursue and still have no answer. It's actually a logical fallacy to say the most likely explanation can invalidate the rationale of pursuing evidence. I mean that's how you can be assured to have the wrong suspect.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08


Elevator motors were on top of the building while standing. Do a controlled demolition and where do you expect them to end up?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Optical98)

Demented, that red beam is haunting, because we know once the east end of it lost it's footing, that huge unit took a long bite out of
the #4 units, pulling down everything in it's path.

That's an unlikely sequence. Columns E2 and E4 (west side of HVAC beams) survived to the very end, actually defiantly poking out of the top of the controlled demolition as the building fell below them. Columns H2 and H4 (east side of HVAC beams) fell as part of the collapse (the second phase of the tower collapse, delayed maybe half a second by the row 4 columns and eastern shear wall). The 04 units would have been collapsing ahead of or simultaneous to those columns, with the HVAC unit following the columns. The HVAC unit won't have helped, but it shouldn't have really done much more than ridden the collapse of the 04 units down.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented (Industrial))

Has to be from the collapse. Why would the passenger side curtains deploy with no obvious crumpling of the areas
It's just dust, same on hood & side panels. Airbags aren't supposed to deploy on parked cars - no electrical power to the triggers. Though there are explosives within airbags, the plaza collapse air boom would hardly register, wouldn't even crack the windshield.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I was thinking more from the jolting. I've had airbags deploy in Honda's/Acuras before, while no key in ignition. Don't install the G sensor upside down and then plug the main fuse back in.
Hondas and airbags don't mix.
https://www.wtvr.com/2012/06/07/airbags-deploy-whi...

Hmmm.


*shakes head*

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented)

I've had airbags deploy in Honda's/Acuras before,

Plural? What profession are you in that gives you this much exposure to surprise airbag deployments?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Honda certified tech while in college.
My father was also a master Honda tech for damn near 40 years so I've learned a few things along the way from a master tech cursing the engineer who designed what ever he's having to fix. A civic in the 90's decided to put him in the hospital after airbags deployed during a factory retrofit of A/C. Battery was not in the vehicle.

Hell, we used to have airbag detonation days scheduled. Warn everyone but the shop manager and then call him out to the shop.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, the HVAC beam in the collapse may not be the one in the permit drawings. The cover letter says that the steel was temporary shoring for the HVAC plant, to allow replacement (implied to be substantially like for like) of the original RC beams. At some point, the new permanent beams changed from RC to the steel we see in recent aerial photos and in the heap. At some point between temporary and permanent, it's not unreasonable to suspect the design may have evolved.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

The 2018 inspection shows a photo that indicates the temporary beam is still located on the roof. A section of the bolted and welded area is photographed.

It was designed in such a way that it could be easily carried up the stairs, or service elevator, in sections. Once in place on the roof, it could be assembled (cut and predrilled in the fab shop) and then final welded with a generator/welder combo or a small transformer and access to a 30A breaker. Once welded, would require torch cutting most likely or hoisting down via crane for removal.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, What I see in picture is not a beam assembly, but rather a length of monolithic beam..... And it is on top of Cooling Tower, not under it...

And I see no permanent concrete beam...... in picture

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Thermo
Same. I'm just not counting out lost pixles because potato camera.
I see the beams on top too, but all the beams are on top. It did a barrel roll off the building, kinda like a portion of it was on the still standing section.

The two primer colored beams welded to a red painted beam, in the location of the new unit. Eh. Maybe, maybe not.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Agree, so concrete was never used on roof beam replacement, and they were messing with cooling tower beams during roof work and anchor work?

Or rather they were replacing crappy concrete beam replacement with steel? Duh.....

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I feel this needs a repost.

Quote (warrenslo)

The building changed its HVAC equipment sometime after 2019. This equipment was on a red steel platform with corners sitting on concrete columns clearly visible in aerials. The equipment flipped over the platform as it fell down the building, this tells me it didn't ride down the building but may have been the reason of the collapse - falling first. The new equipment was on sitting the portion of the building that is still standing yet fell. There also is a large gash in the remaining portion of the building under where the equipment sat.

Furthermore, initial reports confused 135 and 136 units, it appears at some point the "Penthouse A" was added (possibly during construction) as the flyer from 1980 for the building only states 135 units and 12 floors. The penthouse is the 13th floor and 136th unit - it was recently sold and the listing noted marble floors. The penthouse and HVAC unit appear to share a column at the SE corner of the HVAC platform that seems to be the source of the collapse.

I wonder if they placed any additional equipment on or near the HVAC platform prior to collapse and if the building was structurally designed for the penthouse. It is also possible the platform itself failed if it was not designed for the new equipment - it does not look like they replaced or strengthened the platform when the new equipment was installed. To me, this does not look like a sinkhole but a progressive collapse from the roof for the first portion that collapsed as it did not tip over, followed by a failure of a low level (possibly garage) column due to debris causing the second collapse where the remaining building essentially tipped over on top of the first collapse.

Note: I have not been able to access assessor or permit info for this building on the town or county websites, it seems to be blocked - which is pretty unusual.

-W

2019 aerial (old equipment):





Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I'm no expert on elevators but the only picture I've seen the lift motor room looked to me like the basement, plus I thought the elevator car went all the way up to the PH... some plans showed a secondary lift too, not sure if that took place either.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, I could also argue that the barrel roll was caused by loss of East side support when that part of building collapsed. The collapse perhaps pulled the steel beam down on east end, thus caused the barrel roll of the west equipment???

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Optical98, they extended elevator shaft up with the Penthouse addition. It is a pain to look thru Surfside's out of order drawings on a laptop. What is really needed is to print out documents on large scale printer and then sort in correct order. Elevator room looks normal to me....

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Optical98

@Thermo, sounds likely. Seems like at least some of the column was still attached to the support structure.

The beam modifications are still interesting.


Original https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2021/...

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

On the plans, there are numerous references to an elevator machine room on the roof.


spsalso

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I think Elevator Machine room is on roof of original permitted 12 story Condo building.......

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

The CCTV video from 87 Park clearly shows the 9.1 row falling well ahead of the 4 row. If you watch it slowly, the penthouse corridor can be clearly seen as a sharp line that has not significantly descended at the elevator end (where the large HVAC was), while the 9.1 row has dropped about 4 or 5 stories down. There is just no way that HVAC unit fell early and somehow the corridor attached to the same columns was still substantially in place between the HVAC unit and the rapid collapse. Additionally, in the early stages of collapse, the M line of columns appears to be leading the collapse of that section, at the sharp point of the shallow V-shape; which again puts too much structure between the visible start of the collapse and the large HVAC.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

We don't know what was happening inside really. But, strangely underneath that red beam that to my tired eyes looks like the temporary support beam for a was a complete concrete beam replacement that went uninspected and approved. The unit appears to have been fully supported on columns, but why are there solid modifications to a temporary structure that has zero function and was engineered to be as light and easy as possible to support a much smaller unit? That's just bugging me is all.
If those additional beams were installed under to stiffen the support structure and were resting on the roof surface, that would be interesting. Having trouble finding permits for this.

A possibility is the building began to collapse on the interior before making it's way to the deck.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Auri)

Though there are explosives within airbags, the plaza collapse air boom would hardly register, wouldn't even crack the windshield.

That CRV looks like it took a decent hit from something.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I can't remember where I pulled this close up view of the roof from -

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

That close up definitely looks like a concrete beam

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

The columns that fail first just happen to be at the bottom of the ramp. They line up perfectly with a car collision. Ignore the eyewitness accounts. The timing is unknown. Car hits column. Enough said. Prove it wasn't a car that destroyed the M11.1 column.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented)

A possibility is the building began to collapse on the interior before making it's way to the deck.

That seems extremely unlikely, well into magic bullet territory, if you're trying to suggest the HVAC caused or contributed to structural failure vertically, all the way to basement / lobby level, before causing the pool deck to drop. The Nir family from 111 had to walk past E4 and H4 to get to the lobby (those columns are part of the north wall of the corridor. There's a little grey around the precise location of the son and daughter when the mother ran to them after seeing the surface parking collapse from the lobby, but it appears that they were at least as far back as E4 if they were not back at their unit. They really could not have missed a major failure involving H4 prior to the surface parking dropping.

The lady from 611 had to run past H4 while making her escape. Admittedly, she was running with the building literally crumbling behind her, so would easily miss things due to adrenalin-fuelled tunnel vision. The certainty, however, is that her living room (with no direct proximity to H4) was cracking, but the slab directly attached to H4 was there for her escape. Even in adrenalin survival mode, she probably would have noticed a major structural failure with H4 as she passed it.

H2 would be more hidden from the witnesses, but the hypothetical progression towards the pool deck from it couldn't be missed by them.

H4 was part of the wall of the penthouse corridor, clearly visible after 10 and 11 stacks had significantly descended. We see essentially the entire 4 line of columns above and behind the collapse of the south facing units. With less precise identification (dark blob on the video without clear features), we see structure behind the 4 line as it begins to fall, and there's only the 1 and 2 lines of columns remaining to provide that.

If H2 and/or H4 failed prior to the pool deck, it would require far more than a crack and dropping an inch or two to propagate that failure across to M9.1. The internal failure would also need to pause for several minutes after progressing to the pool deck before the tower came down.

There is substantial evidence that there was no early failure involving the HVAC, with really nothing significant to support the alternative hypothesis. Its position on the rubble is entirely consistent with mostly just riding the collapse downwards and taking a tumble either due to torque acting on it from the support beams failing at one end (hinging at the other), meeting some resistance on the way down, or just rolling as it came to rest on the pile.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

HVAC units are a non-issue here. I don't know why people keep bringing them up.

If it was a car that took out a column, they've would have pulled out a car from the rubble with significant front-end damage consistent with that of a car hitting a tree. So far nothing like that has happened.

The Building Integrity YouTube channel videos have provided the most professional insight and plausible theories as to what happened - and he explains it in a manner that is easy for the average layman to understand. The guy in the videos is the president of this company. https://consultengineering.com/

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Murph9000
Not trying to suggest that at all.
Just trying to figure out how and why a temporary support fixture got turned into a permanent load bearing device, on top of a repaired/replaced concrete column that was poured before inspection, appears to have no reinforcement, and was still given the OK by the inspector on site and city. If that concrete beam was cracked and failed, that would put the temporary support structure as the only thing spanning that gap. I'm more concerned of the forces that would be on the columns and shear wall in that instance.
I don't see any rebar on that beam that was replaced. We do have absolute 100% proof that beam was a temporary support structure to avoid shoring, and the concrete beam was poured without inspection, on an over 90*F day, and passed. That's an issue. If that's not an issue, then none of the shoddy labor is an issue. Why are we concerning ourselves with missing rebar and bad concrete repairs from this same crew in lower portions, but on the roof it's now stupid because it involves an HVAC unit? FFS.

Angela Gonzalez and Devin Gonzalez did fall from the 9th floor to the 4th floor though internally. They were pulled alive. They heard noises around them and began to run. Made it to the front door, made it 5 feet or so, and then landed on the 8th floor. and then subsequently down to the 4th floor.


Anyone know which permit was for the HVAC replacement where the crane was on 88th 10AM 1/23/2019?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Yeah nevermind, no permit.


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Seems the only consistent thing on the building over 40 years is ignoring codes, permit requirements, and best practices for maintenance.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Retiredat46)

What were these two trunnion-like fixtures (one open, one closed) atop the columns used for?

At 1:26 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElMjRSgMsiM&t=...

I did a cursory look through the plans, but didn't see anything like that.
https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-sour...

I'm sorry but this area is just very intriguing. Could they have ran a roof anchor into this beam? Seems they didn't care to actually move HVAC units to put them in the right spot.
So many new and odd variables. I don't understand how anyone can do proper maths or run simulations without proper data. There's so much different here than what was in the original drawing. We also have the elevator in use at the time, pulling a heavy load up from the roof.

Think outside the pointy circle.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote:

I doubt many folks on this forum, have actually worked with yokum and hot lead, to seal the hubs of cast iron sanitary sewer piping.

Quote (Yokum)

The family name of some Al Capp cartoon characters;
Li'l Abner Yokum
Daisy Mar Yokum
Mammy Yokum

Quote (Oakum)


Oakum is a preparation of tarred fibre used to seal gaps. Its main traditional applications were in shipbuilding, for caulking or packing the joints of timbers in wooden vessels and the deck planking of iron and steel ships; in plumbing, for sealing joints in cast iron pipe;

Pouring lead to backup the oakum seal.



Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

LOL….. At least I got the ‘kum’ part right!worm

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Demented

Ahh, ok. I was taking your repost of warrenslo's roof-first / HVAC-first theory as context for the subsequent message. As evidence of general shoddy workmanship and poor permitting practices and compliance, sure, it's quite reasonable to examine all of the work.

The Gonzalez family were in 904? Their front door was basically right on the ragged cut line between the surviving section and collapse zone. The corridor outside that would have been relatively late in the rapid collapse of the middle, but heavily damaged on all levels. Their front door was directly adjacent to E4 on the E4–H4 span, most of which was gone, leaving a thin strip of damaged slab on the east side of the E line. Some slabs looked like they were sagging down there, after the collapse, possibly partially or fully detached from E2 and/or E4.

I'm not certain from what I've read of their survival, but I think they fell during the main tower collapse, trying to make it out the door. Pure luck or fate put them right on the survival line at that moment. The brief half second or so pause in the collapse at the 4 line may have aided their escape. That's my interpretation of how they both fell and survived, and I think they effectively fell one floor at a time, "cushioned" on the growing debris below the slab they were on, until they landed on the 4th floor corridor slab (probably sticking out a little further than slabs above, or their slab or surrounding materials tipped/pushed them onto it. Alternatively, they may have fallen immediately post-collapse, in the dark and dust, taking the wrong step as they tried to get from their survival ledge across to the corridor for the elevators and stairwell. Equally miraculous and horrific, either way.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I believe it was floor after floor with each one cushioning it, and the 4th floor was the top of the pile by the time it stopped. They've described very little but they did mention pauses between falling each floor initially. They were rescued from the top of the rubble pile nearest the non-collapsed section. (NW side), shortly after first responders arrived. You can hear the coordination of their rescue on the released Miami-Dade fire radio. There was another survivor who reported hallway floors gone, as well as fire rescue reporting portions of interior floors collapsed in the still standing section. As to where, I have no clue. I'm sure they reported that all in debrief. There were known cavities in this area with survivors they were talking to, and banging/cries for help they heard. Part of their whole panic with the storm, the fires, the flooding, and the building being unstable. Survivors were stuck around there.

Edit: Yes, the Gonzalez was in 904.

Quote (NBC)


“In the middle of the night, my daughter woke up because she heard a strange noise, and when she woke up, the building was shaking,” said Angela Gonzalez's mother, Kathleen Gonzalez.

“She started screaming for them to get up and get out, and she just ran with her daughter, pulled her daughter by her arm, when they got out the front door, they didn't even go five feet, and it fell down to one floor below,” she said.
Angela Gonzalez and Deven were separated, and as Deven screamed for her mother, Angela Gonzalez “crawled over and put her body on top of my granddaughter and they fell again all the way down to the third floor,” Kathleen Gonzalez said.

They got very lucky.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

The Gonzalez family Unit 904 -

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mother-daught...

Brief facts in a nutshell version -



They ran out the door, got 5 feet and that slab dropped one floor. The mother had enough time to crawl over and get on
top of her daughter to try and protect her. 5 seconds...10? Then they dropped from 8th to 3rd floor.

That last line about the daughter is tough.

And somehow Binx their cat survived too!

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

LOL Demented....are you ghosting my computer? j/k, but we often post virtually the same thing..

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Have we any indication of where this cable in the steel support permit denial is, and if it did have a turnbuckle attached? Where would this cable have been anchored?

Edit: Ha, nope.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, a cable attached to the AC unit? I know I saw a picture that showed a bit of it, and later a hole where I assumed it was yanked out. I'll try to find it.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Seems that was the plan for the denied permit. Was it just held down via tensioned cables anchored to the building? Maybe thats what the tearout on the remaining beam atop the column we see in the controlled demolition. The thing from the other side in the drove video we know had no rebar in it. Plus that field report. That would be an ooopsie. A lot of oopsies.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

This pic is before the new unit, but I think u can still see it on the new set-up too.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

That would appear to be a PVC drain. It's more visible in the 4k drone video.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

This is the hole after, yeah potato pics...I can't tell cable from pvc....

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, PVC Drain with Trap you see in satelite photo


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Bottom left?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I find this photo interesting, in that there is no concrete beam at Penthouse Corridor like there is shown on original Plans, and even on revised original plans. This Penthouse Addition was changing on the fly, IMO.... Originally there were 2 concrete beams spanning columns at each end. 2019 Photo shows one end of platform hanging off West CMU Penthouse corridor wall.

Could their 'Value Engineering' have eliminated the 2nd concrete beam, by just hanging off CMU wall? Photo as-built does not match any version of original design I could find.....

Edit notice column line on left of hanging AC supports




Here is one version of AC support beams, and I will look for plan that has revised 1980 date too.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented)

We also have the elevator in use at the time, pulling a heavy load up from the roof.

With only two people in it, the elevator should have been falling upwards, controlled by motor braking. Properly configured, the counterweight should balance the elevator car at roughly half load, so they fall upwards when lightly loaded. All of the weight for it should have been directly supported by the RC shear wall structure, and it shouldn't have been putting much dynamic load into the building as a whole.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Thermopile
That was my thought exactly.
Loss of support. F=MA
This support was to stop the roof collapsing.

The steel beams look like it's held with the typical 4"x4"x.25" steel clip with 7/8" slotted holes to accept a 5/8" Hilti anchor.

@Murph9000
Thank you for explaining that.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

#Demented, And failure on West side AC area would be hidden by East Penthouse Corridor Wall in the Security Cam video.

Edit, Slab could have failed under CMU West penthouse wall, well before columns actually failed with AC load on CMU wall and not column line

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Notice Revision 1 and 2 from Oct 31, 1980 and Nov 11, 1980.... Very fluid changing design, and perhaps pressure to get done ASAP... Sorry this is AC4 I posted. You can find it in several of Surfside PDF's both with the revision dates above

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Optical98
That hole is the trash chute vent. 5/14/80 Rev date Penthouse addition plans. SHT 4 of 9

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Why extra steel beam on top of steel beams sitting on concrete beam on one end, and hanging on CMU wall on other end?

Was extra top steel beam, a bandaid fix for failing concrete beam in 2009?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

The permit was requested AFTER the new install. I think the unit may have been overweight for the structure. We could already see the fabricated beam had a slight arch to it, and the weight was hanging from it if that concrete beam was considered inop for what ever reason. This severely changes the load capacity of the beams with their construction.

The extra top beam was the temporary support structure to eliminate shoring of 3 floors down during the beam replacement. It was to have no load bearing capabilities. It was just to hold the unit up while the beam was replaced from end to end. The portions left on the column should have been tied into the new beam, but seems they were not properly. This could very easily lead to a shear of the concrete beam due to overloading and uneven pressure being applied by an overloaded and sagging steel beam on very suspect concrete.

Edit: Time to go dig the spec sheet out for that concrete repair.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

#Demented, Correct the AC support beams are now hanging off cross steel beam on top, and resting directly on top of column lines of possibly failing concrete beam

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Maximum 8" depthing. In regards to permit 09-00000261




RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Optical98)

Demented, that red beam is haunting, because we know once the east end of it lost it's footing, that huge unit took a long bite out of
the #4 units, pulling down everything in it's path.

I still think the HVAC & roof anchors caused this, why:

The roofing & roof anchors work had gotten to the area of the HVAC unit and the "bootleg" penthouse.

The roof anchors were being installed incorrectly (on 6" cantilever slabs where 8" was required on the remaining portion of building - who knows what they did when they got to the HVAC and Penthouse. I'm sure the roof anchor company and the inspector knows.

Morabito appears to have a relationship with the roof anchor company. Why would they install anchors prior to structurally stabilizing the building. Why did Morabito send that email to the city AFTER COLLAPSE. Roof anchors weren't even needed, you could repair with cherry pickers and scaffolding. They had a cherry picker to the roof after collapse.

The roof anchor testing note on the plane required 5,000 lbs (ultimate failure load) testing where typically 2,500 lbs (2x design load) is performed to minimize structural damage.

Roof anchor inspection (and most likely observation of testing) was less than 18 hours prior to collapse. I requested the inspectors notes from the inspection that day from the city but they replied saying they posted it - they hadn't.

Construction noises came from "above" first per 111. We know walls cracked from the ceiling downwards per 611.

The Penthouse & 12th-10th floors collapsed first and slowly floor by floor to floor 8 from 904 (this information is new and wasn't available when I originally posted my roof theory in part 1 of this forum.)

Portions of the roof, Penthouse, and 10th-12th floors falling onto the pool deck would have hit the backside of the damaged columns in the remaining building engineers on site after collapse suspected brought down the pool slab. It was damaged on the side opposite the lobby level parking across from x10 units and deformed horizontally.

Perhaps everyone is already aware of the roof anchors causing this and that is why the police have said that is a criminal investigation - they didn't have a roof anchor permit until less than 18 hours prior to collapse yet clearly had done a significant amount of work.

Standing buildings don't just fail, they almost always fail under unusual loading or during construction. The roof anchor work was the trigger.

Regarding water in the basement during recovery, water is going to get in when the pumps are turned off, there is no roof, and the perimeter walls are damaged.

-W

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Thermopile
Have you any idea where the callout for the concrete beam is? Best I can gather is it's a BM1, BM34, BM36, or BM38.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

What I am finding is a Carrier APD080 which is replacement model number on permit doc's, weights 2610 lbs. Not sure if that includes refrigerant charge weight..... But puts you in the ballpark anyways

Demented I can not find a call out any where for beams

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

The 38APD08055-10020 unit was replaced January 2019. Not sure with what, but it was bigger. I can find no permits in regards to this. Only a few emails between building officials and police about a road closure, and it's an odd conversation to have if there were permits.

Edit: Conversation was the incorrect phrasing. Odd question to ask if it were permitted.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08


RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Any Star Trek fans in this thread?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

#Demented, My memory ain't what it used to be.. I just found info I now remember seeing say a week ago?
Here is the replacement concrete beam drawing.
Question for my feeble mind is how do you support the 2003 temporary steel beam that was left in 2003, with COLUMNS, while you lift it slightly to remove old concrete beam, and build formwork to pour new beam, and hopefully reinforce it?

I can see crane lifting say steel beam perhaps, and another crane say lifting old concrete beam off roof, but that temporary steel structure has to be supported while you are forming, reinforcing and pouring new beam that rests on top of columns. And surely they wait at least 7 days if not 28 days before loading new concrete beam???

Edit so new concrete beam weights 5300 lbs or so? Which is way heavier than the 1/2 load it is supporting? Does this make any sense? Why not use Steel and just paint it often? A lot faster in and out, and less expensive too... And neither steel or concrete seem to fair well on reclaimed Ocean?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

@Thermopile If you scroll up I posted some stuff with the permitting of the repair. As much as I can find regarding that whole section.

As for the concrete beam, it was removed in pieces by hand and bucket. Jackhammers or hammer drills likely to be used. It started as exploratory but turned into full concrete bream replacement. Small jacks could have been carried up. sections of beam. 2 little barrel jacks could do it along with scrap sections of beam or wooden blocks. This work was known to have gone on unsupervised and the slab fully poured and job completed before inspection, so I can only assume the forms were removed and the load was placed right back on the concrete beam, under the assumption the temporary support beam would be enough. This repair work was done by the same crew that did the balcony and column repairs.

It is all very confusing.

Edit: 4800lb beam assuming they just left out all the rebar.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Demented, I understand two bottle jacks and some wood cribbing you can do it, and I guess no issue to put load directly on slab and not over columns them self. Growing up my dad owned a trailer park, and I am far better at blocking a trailer up than I want to be.
I was just thinking no concern for shifting load onto jacks without supporting down 3 floors???

Steel temporary beam does not look long enough to provide end support with a couple of bottle jacks and cribbing.....

Barrel Jacks are Bottle Jacks in my State.........

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

If you jack it up for just long enough to do the work and lower it, no harm no foul right?

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

5 second rule?

Never under estimate the creativity of a LAZY Profit Driven Contractor!

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Let's lift 1/2 of platform lift with no wheel chocks, flat bed too close behind fork lift, and I am sure I am missing more...

So this ingenious idea also does a 4 piece W14x43 so that each section can be hand trucked up the elevator to the roof, rather than having to have a crane show up to put a proper steel beam? Beam is 25 foot long, so perhaps a special order length?? And of course welding on roof, if they actually did that at joints. Joints just increase rusting versus continuous beam...

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

How does 500 gallons leak out of a 100 gallon tank? Pour more in to find the leak of course.
Edit: The ECU needed to be replaced.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

It appears the original beam in that location would have been a BM38. Why would it increase to 12x24, and how? Did they concrete around the original? If you did that, you wouldn't have to lift the steel beam and you could easily pour it from the top.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

> The Penthouse & 12th-10th floors collapsed first and slowly floor by floor to floor 8

The security video shows those floors falling from below, doesn't it? You can see down as far as about 8 or 9 and the upper part of the facade is intact. And there's still the question of why no-one (especially 111, in this theory the dropped items land right next to their terrace window) reported anything falling from above.

And although I can see that shoddy engineering supporting that AC block could let it drop onto the roof or rest on structures not designed for it, I don't see how that could cause a major failure. The columns are under much lower load up at the top of the building. I could understand a slab driven top down failure caused by that heavy unit dropping onto the roof and then the PH dropping onto floor 12 and so on, but that's not what we see from outside.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

I have found no other revision either since you pointed it out. That particular file is the only with information on it that I have.

Columns E2/2.1, which ever it is), E4 are just beyond this I'm assuming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmleL6I2T5M

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

PH5 houses columns D2 and D4.



Permit 21-181 has not been released.


This are is starting to look a whole lot more suspect than the pool deck. Loads of unpermitted work and major structural repairs in a highly concentrated area.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

If it was just unpermitted work that caused that building to fall down, there wouldn't be a condo standing for miles.

I dunno. Could be wrong. Maybe this one was just a convergence of incredible incompetence unlikely ever to happen again.


spsalso

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/v1627165183/tips/Flooring_PH5_uz9aex.pdf

Why would you nail the base wood floor down to concrete, rather than adhesive bond it??? Especially with only 3/4" cover over rebar? How many rebars do you hit nailing it down with 2-1/2" powder driven nails or standard concrete nails? Definitely would be a lot of pounding with 2 layers nailed down plywood and then nailed down hardwoods.

Careful, the answer is tricky.... It depends greatly on how many upper rebars you ass_u-me are in the slab.....

https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/v1627164652/tips/20-1593_8777_COLLINS_AVE_PH5_ljwclv.pdf

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

Quote (Demented)

Columns E2/2.1, which ever it is), E4 are just beyond this I'm assuming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmleL6I2T5M

Yeah. You can positively identify that location from the double column at the very start of the video, on the left of the opening frames. That's A2 & B2. The drilling firefighters are stood between D2 and D5, drilling pretty much directly towards E4. E2 is slightly to their left, hidden in the collapse.

RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08

(OP)

Quote (Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental)24 Jul 21 19:02)

Any Star Trek fans in this thread?
Why do you ask? (something about being beamed up or down?)

SF Charlie
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