Miami herald article about missing records-mirror

No way, records are missing from the town of surfside? Related to this spectacular failure? And Ross prieto is implicated?

Fishy.

Please note the presence and absence of concrete (railings?) on the top few floors.

Quote (Red Corona)

@Js5180 if the two flashes are indeed the result of the conduits being cut in the corridor ceilings of 9 and 11

If electrics are in odd floors and that's what we think the blue light in x10 stack is then making those on floors 9 and 11 goes with the 'missing 13th floor' interpretation (see my floor correlation pic higher up the thread).

Were these flashes before or after the conduits got bent downwards by around 10 ft.? Were the flashes at the end of the conduits or at the meter bases? Where exactly did each phase wire fail?
As I've said before, you will never be able to prove anything to me by trying to interpret the flashes on that fuzzy video.

Quote (SFCharlie)

Please note the presence and absence of concrete (railings?) on the top few floors.

702, 903, 1203, 905, 1007, 1108, 212, 312, 612, 812, 1012 all had balcony railings removed and replaced in 2009.
Though I'd recon lost pixles.


To those in the previous thread with questions over the fire control panel, it was not original. Was due to be replaced but they had this.
https://www.securityandfire.honeywell.com/notifier...

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

I have been at work on a prototype of a new PowerPoint presentation. I removed all the "duplicate frames" (frames with no light, leaf, or collapse movement). Around frame 20, I noticed I could see the top floors. I marked them in red and then backed up to the previous frame and aligned the red with the portions that remained visible. I was able to do this almost to the start of the frames.

(if you have PowerPoint, I have the timings setup for a "show")

SF Charlie
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Quote (Demented (Industrial)30 Jul 21 22:02)

...all had balcony railings removed and replaced in 2009.

Do we know if they were replaced with wrought iron or concrete?

SF Charlie
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Powdercoated Aluminum.
Edit: May have been painted. Aluminum either way.

They were all due to get pulled out this year, posts trimmed and baseplates welded on for them to install with tapcons rather than being in 3" diameter cored holes 3-5" deep.

Quote (Demented (Industrial)30 Jul 21 22:09)

Powdercoated Aluminum.

So these were not the railings for the 12th and 13th floor PHs? Right?

SF Charlie
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No concrete railings. 2nd floor to PH contained the aame design railings. Roof and PH roof contained the parapet wall.
Edit: One unit at the top had an extension of the roof that was blocked off. I guess this would be a "railing". Another as built being different than as drawn.

Quote (Demented (Industrial)30 Jul 21 22:31)

I guess this would be a "railing"

Ah! Now the photos make sense to me.
Thanks

SF Charlie
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Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

I marked them in red

Are you saying your top red line is not actually in line with what may be seen as the far (north) PH corridor parapet? And what is immediately below is not the roof surface hinged down?

Quote (rodface)

For those looking for grassy knolls in blurry videos...

This is how the building would have looked from the camera's precise perspective, when intact.

That appears wrong. You're missing a section of 12 floor roof parapet.

Quote (Demented)

To those in the previous thread with questions over the fire control panel, it was not original. Was due to be replaced but they had this.
https://www.securityandfire.honeywell.com/notifier...

Nicolas Vazquez and his wife Gimena Accardi were in the elevator when the deck collapsed, having just parked in the garage. In his WhatsApp audio, Vazquez says that the elevator from the garage stopped at the lobby as usual. In other words, he is saying that the normal experience coming from the garage included the elevator stopping at the lobby.

What would be the purpose of programming the Honeywell to do that?

Quote (Nukeman948)

I don't know if the fire alarm system is the original one from 1980, but for the original one, a manual pull station, smoke detector, or sprinkler flow switch will transmit a tone alarm for that floor only. After a time delay of 0-10 minutes, if not reset, a general alarm will alert all floors.

That stuff is designed to last for decades. We still have stuff from the 1980's where I work.

If your nickname here implies what you do for a living, you know what I'm talking about!

There were seven minutes between the 1:15 deck collapse and the 1:22 building collapse. If they had the system set to ten minutes, that would explain why the people in the part of the building that stood could hear the alarm after the building collapse.

Looking at the security guard's (admittedly 2nd hand) story on the go fund me page for her, there's some things I question.

When the power went out, the front doors locked. Surely this would be a safety violation? Maybe the doors weren't actually locked, but when the other side of the building collapsed, it jammed the doors?

At any event, it appears the family from 111 (and likely the couple that had come up in the elevator, perhaps others?) escaped before the doors were inoperable.

The guard was helping people escape from the basement. It's unclear how she got there, being as how there's no access to the stairs from the lobby?

Quote (nessman)

If your nickname here implies what you do for a living, you know what I'm talking about!

You wouldn't believe the amount of pneumatic controls still in use where I've been. It's like a trip to the '60s.

Quote (Debirlfan)

At any event, it appears the family from 111 (and likely the couple that had come up in the elevator, perhaps others?) escaped before the doors were inoperable.

Yes, apparently others escaped through the lobby doors along with the Nirs and Vazquezes. We don’t have any of their identities but, if you look at the NYT’s fatalities/unit graphic, it seems evident that the others who escaped were from the side that didn’t fall, as were Vazquez and Accardi (306.)

Quote (Nukeman948)

You wouldn't believe the amount of pneumatic controls still in use where I've been. It's like a trip to the '60s.

Still in use where I am today! But... given the plant is nearly 50 years old (and talk about steel reinforced concrete...), it still runs very well today.

Quote (zebraso (Mechanical)30 Jul 21 22:46)

Are you saying ... is not the roof surface hinged down?

What I'm saying and I believe, is that I see the floor 13 penthouse roof parapet intact in frame 22 (the upper most red line), And when I back the red shape into the previous frame, and realign it at it's bottom, that I can make out the PH roof parapet all the way back to frame 7. It fits with the idea that the whole stack has dropped about one floor at the start of the video. I'm definitely not sure what I see above (odd black shape) or to the left of it.
_{I'm definitely sure I don't know what I see above (odd black shape) or to the left of it.}

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

What I'm saying and I believe

Thanks. Trying to digest this stuff....

Nukeman,

As blurry as the video is, I have no trouble seeing that the two flashes are two floors apart from each other, and are of a color and brightness inconsistent with any other light source except an electrical arc.

Regardless of what floor they were on, or whether they came from a unit panel or the corridor conduit, it’s clear that the upper part of the x10 area was collapsing, isn’t it?

And despite the video being blurry, it’s also easy to make out the white stucco band on the K column, and it doesn’t seem to have moved in the first 34 frames, despite the collapse being well underway.

While this isn’t directed at you in particular, there seems to be a selective characterization of the video as “too blurry” when we’re discussing a top-down collapse, but clear enough to show a basement-up collapse. I’m not suggesting a beer can rolled off the roof, broke the parapet, caved in the pool deck, dropped a piece of concrete on a gas pedal which ten minutes later crashed a car into a column and brought the building down.

But, a pool deck that was weak enough to collapse under its own weight is also a pool deck weak enough to collapse from ANY external force, and there certainly seem to be parts of the upper floors that were collapsing prior to any changes directly below them.

Finally, the early frames show an upper PH parapet east/right of the M column line, but NOTHING west/left of it. I have never heard an explanation for such a clean shear of this slab and it’s parapet along a column boundary. The theory is that the section between L and M “just dropped” 10 feet. Was it not attached in any way to the slab east of the M column line? No hinging, no nothing. It just sheared clean off on one side, while the other side stayed up? How?

Js5180,

You're saying that, although the pool deck collapsed 7 minutes before the building fell, the building failed from the top, and took things below down?

I assume you think the pool deck failure DID cause the building to fail. So how did that cause the failure to start at the top?

If you think the pool deck failure DIDN'T cause the building to fall, I will note that there's a hell of a coincidence there.

spsalso

The "flashes" that have been attributed to electrical arcing/shorts are certainly interesting.

I note that photos appear to show lengths of conduit sticking out of the (formerly) still standing building. There are NO wires sticking out of them. The implication is that the falling building pulled the conductors out of their circuit breakers. Thus those wires would not be energized and could not short and create arcing.



spsalso

If the upper floors were collapsing, then I’d expect them to be shedding debris. The cantilevered balconies and roof only need to be slightly out of level before debris (including cinder blocks) starts falling off. I’m not saying an AC unit rolled off or anything like that. But if we’re saying that the pool deck could collapse under its own weight, than anything falling on it can’t be ruled out, can it?

What I’m seeing, before the eastern part collapses, is that in every single frame, there is more deformity in the top four floors than the lower ones.

The eastern part clearly collapsed a different way - bottom up - and the upper slabs were nearly intact in the debris pile.

Pretty simple, that part of the wall tipped backwards onto the roof at the start of the collapse or just before the collapse when that section of the building was sagging.

We'd know a lot more if the CCTV footage started like 10 seconds earlier.

Quote (spaslo)

Finally, the early frames show an upper PH parapet east/right of the M column line, but NOTHING west/left of it. I have never heard an explanation for such a clean shear of this slab and it’s parapet along a column boundary. The theory is that the section between L and M “just dropped” 10 feet. Was it not attached in any way to the slab east of the M column line? No hinging, no nothing. It just sheared clean off on one side, while the other side stayed up? How?

Quote (Js5180)

If the upper floors were collapsing, then I’d expect them to be shedding debris. The cantilevered balconies and roof only need to be slightly out of level before debris (including cinder blocks) starts falling off. I’m not saying an AC unit rolled off or anything like that. But if we’re saying that the pool deck could collapse under its own weight, than anything falling on it can’t be ruled out, can it?

Show us what this failure looks like on the plan. Where do the balconies start to go out of level? How? Where do the cinder blocks come from?

The failure of the pool and how it could bring the building down have been modeled. I’ve seen no such animation or even a basic sketch for how this happens on the roof.

And then there are the obvious deficiencies in the pool deck slab that are evident in the unusual punching failures at each column. No imagination is needed to see that there was something significantly wrong there.

A cinder block fell off the roof. Or maybe it was a drone strike. Or perhaps an asteroid. Most likely is that some 300+ lb human committed suicide and they were the trigger for the pool deck failure. But that probably didn’t happen either. Right?

Spsalso,

I can’t find a good image of the conduit. I’d agree if the wires pulled completely out there’d be no arcing from the conduit. I’d like to see a clear image of the conduit breaks. The best ones I have seen have it bending down, rather than shearing off.


Reverse bias,

That quote is mine, not spsalso’s. But we’re not just talking about a wall tipping back. We are talking about a slab in that area that has fallen, not hinged, at least 10 feet, while the slab on the other side of the M column is yet undisturbed. How does such a clean break occur at a column line? I’m thinking a construction joint could do it, but nobody has suggested that. Either way, we have a very distinctive loss of a specific section, from column K to M, at the PH roof level. If the L or M columns had magically disappeared from the basement, wouldn’t we see a “V” in the slabs up above? And not a clean break?

Quote (BKNJ)

There is some shear puncture at the outside columns and the slab hinges down somewhat... maybe 20 or 30 degrees. Nobody is in PH-A at that hour to see it, but now a couple lose pieces (~15lbs) of the parapet or large crumbs of the slab where it broke fall and either hit the balcony immediately below of ricochet down and hit the pool deck, making "construction noises" that reverberate through the building. At some point, a large section of parapet (>15 feet) lets go, takes out the balcony railing below and falls 12 stories to the pool deck starting its failure.

That's kinda what I see as a remote-remote possibility. I'd love to hear how this couldn't ever-ever happen.

“ I'd love to hear how this couldn't ever-ever happen.” it’s not our job to prove a negative.

Show me on the plans where this 20-30° “hinge” forms. We’ll ignore how there are no reports of any noises from 12, 11, 10, etc.

Sketch out where this >15’ piece of parapet wall cleaves itself from the building. What’s that weight? What mechanism of failure are you proposing?

Oh… maybe it was some resident who was angry about the repairs who went up to the roof and threw the tar buggy off. But that’s too heavy you say. Well not until you consider that ratchet strap come-along they rigged to the steel beam and roof anchors to pull it up the ramp of cinder blocks, tar paper, and loose AC units.

That's kinda what I see as a remote-remote possibility. I'd love to hear how this couldn't ever-ever happen.

Look closely in my PowerPoint. If you stare at it with your eyes crossed you can make it 3D. IT’S ALL RIGHT THERE IN PLAIN SIGHT!!!

SFCharlie

Can I get a new link to your security video project, the one I downloaded before has 22 frames, is there a new one with more frames? I do have power-point btw.

Thank you

Spartan, you have a power-point file too?

Spartan,

Drone strike? Come on.

But again - if the pool slab was so weak to spontaneously collapse, then anything landing on it, driving on it, or looking at it could bring it down.

My sequence? I don’t know, actually, but I’m thinking there was cracking (or a construction joint) on the roof level that allowed the roof slab to separate at the M column line. Once we get there, the western half of the PH roof is wobbly. The parapet is poorly attached and as we saw in the controlled demo, prone to separating from its slab. A few cinder blocks hitting the pool deck at 70mph easily break it - especially since everybody seems to agree it could collapse entirely under its own weight. It needed no help.

But the pool deck collapse didn’t immediately bring the wall down. So then what? A column in the garage is gradually shedding concrete for seven minutes while it’s rebar bends? No different from the upper floors gradually giving out. EXCEPT - in the upper floors we have drywall and steel studs and whatever other wall finishing which contributes little strength but very likely acts as a brake.

Quote (Js5180)

That quote is mine, not spsalso’s. But we’re not just talking about a wall tipping back. We are talking about a slab in that area that has fallen, not hinged, at least 10 feet, while the slab on the other side of the M column is yet undisturbed. How does such a clean break occur at a column line? I’m thinking a construction joint could do it, but nobody has suggested that. Either way, we have a very distinctive loss of a specific section, from column K to M, at the PH roof level. If the L or M columns had magically disappeared from the basement, wouldn’t we see a “V” in the slabs up above? And not a clean break?

Just sketch on the plan where the spontaneous slab failure occurs. I want to see a sketch of what people think failed and their purported mechanisms. Not wild-eyed suppositions made by people begging others to prove that it couldn’t “ever-ever” happen.

No one on the floors immediately below notice this? Somehow the otherwise shittily constructed and maintained building withstands this insult? Didn’t you see the real estate pictures showing the massive defections and distress from the tile loads?

And all of this based on a video of a video; both of which have been smooshed more than a Vegas escort. (But we’re gonna try to fix it with PowerPoint.)

EDIT: forgot to add that said video didn’t start until after the collapse did.

Spartan,

You say, “Sketch out where this >15’ piece of parapet wall cleaves itself from the building. What’s that weight? What mechanism of failure are you proposing?”

Watch the controlled demo video. The parapet over unit 1205-ish clearly “cleaves itself from the building.”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZDZ9nN5kns


EDIT: the parapet cleaves itself at 0:11.

It isn’t “wild-eyed” to see that in the video, the upper PH roof slab left/west of the M is missing, and the right/east section is not.

You can pull out your thesaurus and throw a few more adjectives around, but I see blue sky, beginning just left of the M column line. That’s a clean break. What’s your explanation for this?

Roof vs pool deck: were major structural defects identified and repairs required for both or just one of them?

As for “spontaneous failure” of the pool deck. It is a possibility. But I don’t think any has said conclusively that that was the case.

Sure, any number of things all more or less equally likely could have fallen from above and triggered the patio failure:
*space debris
*meteorite
*heavy suicide carcass
*cinderblocks, tar paper, and AC units
*drone missile (or just a large drone… I think I saw one with red paint on it)
*UAV
*malicious wheeling of tar buggy off the top
*Failed group BASE jump attempt from poorly installed roof anchor… well just the test anyway… with a green hoist sling full of those tar rolls
*(reserved for suggestions)

If only we had the whole videos. We could see if it was any of that. All are remote possibilities though. Right?

I’m sorry. This is absurd. They were working on the roof that day, and you’re saying a drone strike, meteor strike, or base jumper is more or less equally likely to have happened, compared to something falling from the roof?

Quote (Js5180)

It isn’t “wild-eyed” to see that in the video, the upper PH roof slab left/west of the M is missing, and the right/east section is not.

Shocked that none of the major news outlets or other experts are reporting on this. We need to get them that PowerPoint, STAT! Or maybe they are part of the Surfside coverup. It’s certainly a remote possibility.

I’d just like to see these “theories” of how this failure occurred sketched on the plans is all. With some postulation as to their supposed mechanisms.

That aside, the poor video of a poor video is inconclusive. We know that the patio collapsed several minutes before the rest of the building. That’s it. Aside from these wild-eyed interpretations of the video (which seems to be a local affliction) there’s no evidence for that.

I haven’t heard the news report on ANY theories. I feel like that’s why most of us are still here.

EDIT: For the record, many of us here are laypersons as far as structural engineering goes. We respect your professions. But when you flip to calling everything “wild-eyed” and talking about drone/meteor/suicide strikes, the only takeaway is that maybe y’all have some blinders on. After all, we weren’t the ones that stamped these plans. So, some of us are here maybe because we feel we have a different viewpoint that could, remotely, incrementally, advance construction safety.

Quote (Js5180)

I’m sorry. This is absurd. They were working on the roof that day, and you’re saying a drone strike, meteor strike, or base jumper is more or less equally likely to have happened, compared to something falling from the roof?

Yes. They worked on the roof that day. And had gone home. Like they had days before. On many different occasions. Maybe one of them left the Gatorade jug and the ledge and gust of wind brought it down. Who knows?

Tar paper rolls and hammer drills. We forgot the 3/4” hammer drills!!! The ones that so shook the entire building that it caused the failure of the patio several hours later. Or maybe they nicked the critical piece of rebar that caused the whole roof to collapse but caused no one in the floors immediately below to call the police (oh wait, they just haven’t released those calls yet) or flee the building in the 5-15 minutes they had before the whole thing came down.

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)31 Jul 21 04:19)

the one I downloaded before has 22 frames, is there a new one with more frames?

The new one I posted still goes to frame 33, but I removed the apparently duplicate frames.
I'm still working out some process issues, before I go full bore on the some 200 odd frames I have dumped out.
Thanks

(the attached is a work in progress. I stopped because I was too tied to risk flummoxing it up...)

Quote (Spartan5 (Civil/Environmental)31 Jul 21 04:28)

And all of this based on a video of a video; both of which have been smooshed more than a Vegas escort. (But we’re gonna try to fix it with PowerPoint.)

I know I can't fix the video, it is unfixable!

I'm just trying to extract what info is in it without making up any of my own.

SF Charlie
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@Js518 @sfcharlue
Permit 09-00000261 I believe it is off the top.of my head. Field notes. If you can make it through the chicken scratch rush job resemling homework of Bart Simpson.
01-00000232 and 02-00000020 too.

Quote (Js5180)

And despite the video being blurry, it’s also easy to make out the white stucco band on the K column, and it doesn’t seem to have moved in the first 34 frames, despite the collapse being well underway.

Post a picture with an arrow to this white stucco band, because I don't see it. Maybe you think the dust cloud is a band?

Js5180

Can you explain what parts of the building the 3 arrows are pointing to?

SFCharlie - There is a computer app named VideoPad Video Editor that has a video stabilization feature. You can easily find it through Google. I downloaded and installed it to play around with the video stabilization on the Ring camera video. If you have a copy of the collapse video in video form (a stream and not just a collection of individual pictures), you might try this app. For me it was free. And it did stablize the Ring camera video, but the stabilized video was really no more informative than the original. But it might be worth a try on the collapse video.

Lionel - those are the upper floors, collapsing mostly inward.

White stucco bands are the two vertical white lines:

Quote (Js5180)

I can’t find a good image of the conduit. I’d agree if the wires pulled completely out there’d be no arcing from the conduit. I’d like to see a clear image of the conduit breaks. The best ones I have seen have it bending down, rather than shearing off.

The ones I'm thinking of in the photos are indeed those "bending down, rather than shearing off."

There were photo samples from at least two vertical locations. Something like 24 pipes. Maybe more. I saw no wire hanging out of any of them. Where did it go? Not INSIDE the still-standing part of the building. It went down with the crash. Therefore I say all the feeder wires were pulled out of the pipe by the crash. In that case, the disconnection had to have happened either inside the remaining conduit, or more likely at a physical weak point, like where the wires entered their circuit breaker. In those cases, any flash from a short would have been concealed from view.

Thus my problem with calling those flashes electrical in nature.

I do agree they LOOK that way. That was my first reaction. But I'm now not seeing how it would happen.


I suppose there were other circuits crossing the barrier between the remaining building and the falling part. Perhaps it was one of those. Hallway lighting? Seems awfully big and bright for just a 20 amp circuit failing, though.


spsalso

I think this video explains some good points

https://youtu.be/rUjRI5Hn4kw

Quote (sgw1009 (Computer)31 Jul 21 12:04)

There is a computer app named VideoPad Video Editor that has a video stabilization feature.

Thanks for the tip.
Thank you.

SF Charlie
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Quote (Optical98 (Computer)31 Jul 21 04:19)

the one I downloaded before has 22 frames, is there a new one with more frames?

Sorry, I guess I was too tired and I flummoxed attaching the file. Here it is:

The new one I posted still goes to frame 33, but I removed the apparently duplicate frames.
I'm still working out some process issues, before I go full bore on the some 200 odd frames I have dumped out.
Thanks

(the attached is a work in progress. I stopped because I was too tied to risk flummoxing it up...)

SF Charlie
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Quote (Demented (Industrial)31 Jul 21 10:09)

Thank you for the tons of work you have done researching permits, repairs, remodels, and local knowledge. You have added a huge amount of information to our understanding of this tragedy!

SF Charlie
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Quote (LionelHutz (Electrical)31 Jul 21 12:03)

Can you explain what parts of the building the 3 arrows are pointing to?

Js5180, Please correct me if I'm wrong, Thanks


The top two point to the 13th floor PH roof parapet, and the 12th floor PH roof parapet that wraps around the PH.



SF Charlie
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Quote (Js5180 (Computer)31 Jul 21 12:29)

White stucco bands are the two vertical white lines:

It strikes me as strange, that you should choose a frame where one of the vertical white lines is obviously broken to make your case?

SF Charlie
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Thanks to those who pointed out the issues with the model.
The main goal of the model was to get a sharp view of the intact building's forms as seen from the CCTV perspective. I don't know the exact location of the camera on the adjacent property, nor its height above ground, so I made a best guess and adjusted the camera focal length until everything looked close.

I have added :
-the missing parapet on floor 12
-improved windows/glazing

I have not yet modelled:
-glazing on West facade
-glazing on 1st floor
-glazing on 13th floor (PH)
-balcony railings throughout
-I see now that 2 columns of windows are missing in the "elbow"
New rendering:

Quote (rodface (Mechanical)31 Jul 21 15:28)

The main goal of the model was to get a sharp view of the intact building's forms as seen from the CCTV perspective.

Thank You!
I know this represents a large amount of work!

May I please use this as an introductory slide in my PowerPoint?

SF Charlie
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Quote (rodface (Mechanical)31 Jul 21 15:28)

The main goal of the model was to get a sharp view of the intact building's forms as seen from the CCTV perspective.

Thank You!
I know this represents a large amount of work!
It looks great!

Maybe the camera could be a little to the left, a little down, and closer (more wide angle)
I'm probably asking too much, sorry.

SF Charlie
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Quote (SFcharlie)

Edit: Thank you sir, I will try fine-tuning the camera. I have never received proper training in AutoCAD rendering for architectural presentation so bear with me please

Edit2: And yes please feel free to use these.

Rendering with reference objects aligned with CCTV frame for reference. Something is still not quite right about the positioning of the camera and/or the reference objects.

Added the missing columns of windows. Noticed another missing column of windows at far right on floors 2-9.

I recommend that people rewatch the Building Integrity video from 3+ weeks ago where he conducted an analysis of the potential that the roof had collapsed first based on the CCTV video and debris: Did it start at the roof?

It also seems apparent to me, without powerpoint analysis, that you can see the whole penthouse roof with intact parapet tilting forward between the 2 and 3 second mark of the video.

Quote (Debirlfan (Mechanical))

When the power went out, the front doors locked. Surely this would be a safety violation? Maybe the doors weren't actually locked, but when the other side of the building collapsed, it jammed the doors?

When the bulk of the collapse happened, it seems in photos that the stucco ceiling going across the front of the first floor detached from the slab and fell across the driveway and right over a black SUV parked there. I suspect that this blocked the front doors and it wasn't immediately realized in the dark and confusion.

Quote:

The guard was helping people escape from the basement. It's unclear how she got there, being as how there's no access to the stairs from the lobby?

I also questioned this, as it would be a long walk around to the beach side to get easy access to the pool deck. I imagine she could have climbed down near where the sideways car was, as she got an injury at some point.

BKNJ

Quote (rodface (Mechanical)31 Jul 21 16:12)

Wow! Stunning.

SF Charlie
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Quote (BKNJ)

When the bulk of the collapse happened, it seems in photos that the stucco ceiling going across the front of the first floor detached from the slab and fell across the driveway and right over a black SUV parked there. I suspect that this blocked the front doors and it wasn't immediately realized in the dark and confusion.

The Automatic Doors at the main entrance don’t appear to have Emergency Breakaway operation marked at minimum; at worst they don’t have breakaway from the interior.

Quote (BKNJ)

I also questioned this, as it would be a long walk around to the beach side to get easy access to the pool deck. I imagine she could have climbed down near where the sideways car was, as she got an injury at some point.

The interior route perhaps? This is the path followed according to her own statement.

SF Charlie - that’s exactly what I think the top two arrows point to. The building visible behind are parts that haven’t dropped either at all or as much. I think the bottom arrow points to the 12th floor.

Js5180 - Im still not sure what bands you mean. Your arrow isn’t clear at all. Those appear smooth in real life ao it’d be rather difficult to know if they move vertically by looking at them and the stuff On top of them does drop so the most likely conclusion I could make is that they are also dropping.

Quote (BKNJ)

Quote:

The guard was helping people escape from the basement. It's unclear how she got there, being as how there's no access to the stairs from the lobby?

I also questioned this, as it would be a long walk around to the beach side to get easy access to the pool deck. I imagine she could have climbed down near where the sideways car was, as she got an injury at some point.

I too questioned this. In reviewing Ileana Monteagudo’s (611) interviews, it seems that she made it all the way down to the ruined garage and there encountered Shamoka Furman who guided her out.

>>>>>Edited. Ms. Monteagudo mentions climbing and having to get across a gap that was so wide that she would have had to jump if she hadn’t found a place to put her foot so she could instead step over the gap. Per the WaPo feature, they ended up in the visitor parking lot.

Quote (rodface)

Rendering with reference objects aligned with CCTV frame for reference. Something is still not quite right about the positioning of the camera and/or the reference objects.

The camera is located at:

N 25° 52.32451069'
W 80° 7.21234571'
Elev: 15’ NAVD
Direction: 326° Magnetic
Azimuth: 0°

Quote (LionelHutz)

Js5180

Can you explain what parts of the building the 3 arrows are pointing to?

From top to bottom:
PH parapet wall
12th floor parapet wall
11th floor balcony

All of which appear to have followed the stories below them down the 1.5 floors or so that were in the process of collapsing when the video started.

Note that there are no columns standing proud above that front face of the building as were observed elsewhere during both the collapse of the reminding portions and subsequent demolition of the remainder. As those at the front face of the building were riding it down at that point.

Quote (Santos81 (Specifier/Regulator)31 Jul 21 18:02)

The camera is located at:

Thanks for the info!
One of the problems in duplicating the CCTV view is that our object of interest is in a far corner of the frame, where the most distortion from the very wide angle lens in greatest.

SF Charlie
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Quote (SFCharlie)

One of the problems in duplicating the CCTV view is that our object of interest is in a far corner of the frame, where the most distortion from the very wide angle lens in greatest.

Not an issue with the right software suite. It’s going to be extremely difficult from within AutoCAD Architecture alone.

Autodesk flow of:

Civil3D -> Revit -> 3DSMax

This will be far easier and yield a 100% accurate view.

The first photo below shows the first frame of the surveillance camera video. On the extreme left-hand corner of the Champlain Tower building we can see that both windows and parapets appear to be dark while the undersides (i.e., ceilings) of the balconies appear to be light. This is because: 1) the camera is located close to the ground, which gives it a view of the undersides of the balconies, and 2) the photo has been taken at night when the only illumination of the Tower is from the adjacent building, which means that we are viewing features by reflected light only. Since more reflection is produced by the undersides of the balconies they appear to be light, while the windows and parapets reflect the light away from the camera causing them to appear to be dark. The relative brightness of these same features appears to be noticeably different under daylight illumination as shown in the second photo below.





Since both windows and parapets appear to be dark while the bottoms of balconies appear to be light, there should be the following layers on top of each other over the right middle section of the building (from bottom to top):
1) 12th floor window (dark)
2) 12th floor balcony ceiling (light)
3) 12th floor parapet (dark),
4) PH windows (dark),
5) PH balcony ceiling (light), and
6) PH parapet (dark).
Note that the PH windows in this section of the building are obscured by the 12th floor parapet, which should make them appear to be half the height of the PH windows in the right corner part of the building. But the 12th floor parapet also appears to be dark to the eye, so the PH windows in this section of the building actually appear in the photo to be the same size as the PH windows in the corner of the building.

Over the left middle section, above the partially lighted 12th floor, the following layers should be seen (from bottom to top):
1) 12th floor window (lighted)
2) 12th floor balcony ceiling (light)
2) 12th floor parapet (dark).
Note that the light 12th floor balcony ceiling merges into the lighted 12th floor window, making the lighted 12th floor window in the photo appear to be taller than normal.

If we now look at the first frame of the best imagery we can find of the CCTV surveillance video, and not merely the blurred image shown above, what we actually see over the middle right section is this (from bottom to top):
1) 12th floor window (dark)
2) 12th floor balcony eiling (light)
3) 12th floor parapet (dark),
4) PH windows (dark),
5) PH balcony ceiling (light) - but thinner on the left than on the right
6) No dark layer above the light layer.

This implies to me that the entire PH parapet over the right middle section of the building is missing, along with part of PH balcony on the left-hand side of this right middle section.

The simulation by rodface appears to be quite realistic, and he should be congratulated for his effort. But I would recommend that he change the brightness levels of the balcony ceilings and parapets to better simulate viewing them in reflected light than in daylight. This should then bring his simulation even closer to the CCTV video.

Quote (MarkBoB2)

the photo has been taken at night when the only illumination of the Tower is from the adjacent building

What about the pole lighting of the public beach access and plaza level exterior lighting at CTS?

Santos81 asked:

Quote (Santos81)

What about the pole lighting of the public beach access and plaza level exterior lighting at CTS?

Good point. I don't know how these light sources might change the relative brightness of the building features. But one can clearly see in the CCTV photo that the illumination is higher on the left-hand side of the building than on the right-hand side, implying that reflected light is being used. The photo taken in daylight is more uniformly illuminated.

Quote (MarkBoB2)

Good point. I don't know how these light sources might change the relative brightness of the building features. But one can clearly see in the CCTV photo that the illumination is higher on the left-hand side of the building than on the right-hand side, implying that reflected light is being used. The photo taken in daylight is more uniformly illuminated.

Wouldn’t hurt to start with the PA corridor lighting…

Windows only appear dark if the room lights aren't on. We can gauge the reflected light by the large vertical stucco stripes. The appearance of the parapets can be gauged by the remaining parapets on the eastern most section. It is the same for the balcony undersides.
(Please note that the first frame is uniformly dark, and the frames gradually lighten up until at least the fifth frame.) (This is why I use brightness and contrast setting to attempt to obtain uniform appearance through out.)

Nice theory, but by the time you find a clearer frame, like the one I captured part of, the camera can no longer see the under side of any of the overhangs in the collapsing part. I’d say it’s more likely those slabs have hinged down so the parapets are being more lit than the other parts of the building.

Quote (MarkBoB2)

the photo has been taken at night when the only illumination of the Tower is from the adjacent building,

If we still want accurate lighting, we know there was more illumination than just from the adjacent building. There was a full moon out to the South/South-West. That is why the East side looks so dark compared to the South side.

Accommodation to Reinforced Concrete High-Rise Building Deformations and Movements
Apr, 2014 By Songtao Liao, Ph.D., P.E., M. ASCE, Benjamin Pimentel, P.E., Danny Jadeja, M.S., P.E. and Sunghwa Han, M.S., P.E., S.E., LEED AP In Articles, Structural Design Comments 0
During their service life, high-rise buildings and the associated nonstructural components endure various movements and deformations. Although the deformations and movements are not life threatening, inappropriate design of buildings and associated nonstructural components could induce expensive economic consequences in the long-run and, in order to ensure proper building behavior of the superstructures and the attached nonstructural elements, should not be ignored. In this article the possible deformations and movements of reinforced concrete high-rise buildings and the accommodation of the affected components are discussed.

Common Deformations and Movements
Common, inevitable building movements and deformations include: differential column shortening, lateral story drift, building racking, slab and beam deflection, thermal deformation and building dynamic vibration, etc.

PDF Article Attached.

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=52ecc1c5-fff0-401c-9801-7

VIBRATION DESIGN OF CONCRETE FLOORS FOR SERVICEABILITY1
Bijan O Aalami2
This Technical Note covers the design of concrete floor systems for vibration, with an emphasis on simple and expeditious first estimates for a floor’s vibration response. The objective is to determine whether a floor meets the serviceability requirements for vibration using conservative values, or whether a more detailed analysis is warranted. The Technical Note includes several numerical examples to illustrate the application of the procedures presented.
SCOPE
In general, the vibration response of a concrete floors is attributed to:
 Consequence of foot drop in residential and commercial floors;  Rhythmic vibration, such as in dance and sport events
 Vibration in laboratories; manufacturing facilities
 Vibrations due to vehicular traffic outside a facility
 Vibrations due to operation of machinery
 Transient impulse due to earthquake, wind or other impact loads
The focus of this Technical Note is design for vibration in residential and commercial buildings, due to foot drop of walking occupants.

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=42de32ed-1fb7-4597-be92-9

Quote (SF Charlie)

It strikes me as strange, that you should choose a frame where one of the vertical white lines is obviously broken to make your case?

Well, the choice of that frame was unintentional.

But - since you point out the broken band - is it showing any downward movement? Clearly it has some sort of break or damage at a particular spot. Now you have a point of reference - does it descend at all in the time it is visible?

Quote (Js5180 (Computer)1 Aug 21 00:35)

- is it showing any downward movement? Clearly it has some sort of break or damage at a particular spot. Now you have a point of reference - does it descend at all in the time it is visible?

Yes (I believe that the frame you choose is #28. If I look at frame 33, without moving the blue arrow, I see that the brake has fallen and is fragmenting.)
Frame # 028 Column break appears at blue arrow.jpg

Frame # 033 shows column falling.jpg

SF Charlie
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Quote (All About Money (Aerospace)31 Jul 21 23:13
Accommodation to Reinforced Concrete High-Rise Building Deformations and Movements)

Been there done that. 23 story, CIP posttensioned floors, exterior of spaced bearing walls with integral columns alternating with full height curtain walls. Central elevator and utility core of concrete walls.
Window sections attached to steel framing of two or three story segments, side attached to weld clips embedded in the concrete slabs.
Steel framing for glazing pulling away as much as a foot - maintenance had welded clips to steel verticals and set floor anchors to attach come-a-longs and restrain the movements.
Observed conditions, calculated shortening of the building over about 40 years, and determined there was a lack of expansion clearance in the splice joints and connections of the steel verts, and as the building shortened the steel buckled. Floors prevented buckling inward so they buckled outward.
Advised they cut sufficient clearance at joints in vertical steel framing.
End of file.

Update on the rendering. I have

-Modeled the PH level columns and glazing
-Completed glazing of East facade
-Took a shot at the lighting
-Adjusted camera (@Santos81 thanks for the coordinates), still just eyeballing it but feels very close now



Full-res attachment:
Link

Quote (Rodface)

Impressive. It shows the skyline of the first-collapsing area as noticebly darker and harder to see than the eastern section. I think this poorer illumination may have contributed to an impression of missing components.

Not too shabby there rodface. If it helps, the camera has a 108° FoV and focal length of 127’

It’s a start…



Whether it’s worth investing much time on is questionable

Quote (Santos81)

(Applause) now *that* looks right.

I’m definitely only going as far as needed to provide the “initial frame” of the CCTV. I probably won’t bother with floor 1, the garage, the pool deck and beams, etc... all of which your model is clearly incorporating. Not to mention the columns and interiors etc.

I did have a go at modeling the cooling tower and ducting, 100% eyeballed with no accurate dimensioning (LOL). But as it turns out it’s completely obscured from the camera angle.

I *am* putting effort into getting the windows just right, they help make sense of the mush. Already I think I can better identify where exactly the collapse is happening.

Quote (rodface (Mechanical)1 Aug 21 05:29)

Update on the rendering.

I'm stunned, It's looking really great.
Thanks very much!


SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (Santos81 (Specifier/Regulator)1 Aug 21 13:55)

It’s a start…

It’s a great start…
..and, yes I know it's a lot of work...
Thanks very much!

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Take Away: Building was designed for a nominal 20 year life without major upgrades and constant expensive maintenance and repairs........ It was designed to flip for quick profit!

"Building collapse in Miami: Multiple factors could have contributed, experts say
By nytimespost - June 26, 2021"

"Two engineers who reviewed a surveillance video of the collapse in slow motion said it appears the upper part of the building’s middle section collapsed before the lower part.

If the collapse had begun with the foundation, geotechnical engineering professor Steven Kramer of the University of Washington in Seattle would have expected to see everything going together. Instead, he said, the top several stories appear to fall first.

A clue was when dust first appeared in the image.

“The view [in the surveillance video] of the base of the building is obscured by the trees, but I think that dust would have appeared above the trees earlier if the failure had started [at the base],” he said.

Michael Chajes, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at the University of Delaware who does structural forensics, agreed.

“If a lot of things were breaking lower down you would have seen the dust below,” he said.

Another clue came in how the building fell almost straight down.

“When the bottom gives out, unless it gave out uniformly, you would have a lot of twisting and leaning,” Kramer said. “If one of four columns goes at the base, the thing would tend to list to the side.”

The video shows that as the central section began to fall, the eastern section twisted toward it a little before the center collapsed. The eastern part remained standing for another 20 seconds or so before it too began to collapse. In that instance, Kramer believes debris from the center smashed into support beams for the eastern section, rendering it structurally unstable.

On this point experts did all agree: It will take a long time to discern exactly how and why Champlain Tower South collapsed and that, once the answers are known, they’re likely to prompt changes to the building industry."

“The whole regulatory apparatus is behind the times, relative to current risks,” said Clinton Andrews, a professor of urban planning and director of the Center for Green Building at Rutgers University. “I think the case in Florida illustrates that problem.”

"Ashraf, the structural engineering consultant and author of “Practical Design of Reinforced Concrete Buildings,” took note of residents’ complaints that their building was shaking because of nearby construction. He was recently called in to fortify an ocean-facing residential building on Miami’s Brickell Avenue. Like Champlain Towers South, there is construction near the Brickell building.

“Those vibrations are a lot of forces on the building, for which it is not designed,” said Ashraf, who decided to lay out a temporary reinforcement plan. “We tested the concrete and we shored it up. We took steel rods and braced the building. Once construction is over, we’re going to retrofit the building with carbon fiber wrapper or steel plates.”

"Ashraf says a similar plan should have been devised for Champlain Towers South."

“This is not a design failure. This is a maintenance issue,” he said. “If those things are not addressed, these kinds of tragic things can happen.”

"In the end, most of the experts agreed, it’s rarely a single thing that causes a building to collapse."

“It’s almost always a series of things that build up,” said John Wallace, a professor of structural engineering at the University of California, Los Angeles who has participated in multiple forensic analyses of building failures. “Each item adds additional demands upon the building. These things cascade and then it reaches a tipping point where there is this type of collapse.”

"Englehardt, the University of Miami professor, agreed. "

“When incidents do occur it’s because of a series of preceding failures, so there had to be more than one cause for this,” he said. “It had to be a series of sequential failures that would result in anything like this.”

https://www.nytimespost.com/building-collapse-in-m...

SF Charlie,

I can’t argue with that - it has clearly moved between 28 and 33.

Looking at the video, it also appears to be present in frame 1, but not on your version of frame one:



Source is:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KR29pLccutY

Any agreement/disagreement?

Quote (rodface)

Applause) now *that* looks right.

I’m definitely only going as far as needed to provide the “initial frame” of the CCTV. I probably won’t bother with floor 1, the garage, the pool deck and beams, etc... all of which your model is clearly incorporating. Not to mention the columns and interiors etc.

I did have a go at modeling the cooling tower and ducting, 100% eyeballed with no accurate dimensioning (LOL). But as it turns out it’s completely obscured from the camera angle.

I *am* putting effort into getting the windows just right, they help make sense of the mush. Already I think I can better identify where exactly the collapse is happening.

It is a bit over the top but was not really intended for this purpose. There’s an absurd amount of data in the model which helps for accuracy; just makes it very slow to render despite hiding 80ish percent. I wanted to focus on the lighting for now as it provides the most clues to work with. Windows, doors, and hurricane shutters are very important.

HVAC models as delivered to job per spec were provided by the manufacturer.

It is a bit fruitless though as the collapse is already quite far along; everything east of Shear Wall 1 is in motion and no longer in the position it was just prior to the beginning of the failure. The distortion on the right side is not caused by the lens.

Instead of seeking proof that the roof was the cause, examine how it may have been the key to the collapse NOT occurring sooner.

All About Money,

The comment about the dust makes a lot of sense - the area of the “missing parapet” could be interpreted as a dust cloud.

Quote (Js5180 (Computer)1 Aug 21 18:26)

Looking at the video, it also appears to be present in frame 1

I can't see what you are referring to, so, sorry for my old tired eyes.

SF Charlie
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Quote (All About Money (Aerospace)1 Aug 21 18:18)

Thank you for calling our attention to the nytimespost - June 26, 2021 Article

Two engineers who reviewed a surveillance video of the collapse in slow motion said it appears the upper part of the building’s middle section collapsed before the lower part.
If the collapse had begun with the foundation, geotechnical engineering professor Steven Kramer of the University of Washington in Seattle would have expected to see everything going together. Instead, he said, the top several stories appear to fall first.
A clue was when dust first appeared in the image.
“The view [in the surveillance video] of the base of the building is obscured by the trees, but I think that dust would have appeared above the trees earlier if the failure had started [at the base],” he said.

We have had a lot more time to round up more evidence. The witness interview contradict middle floors first.

As for dust, trying to separate dust from camera and compression artifacts (fuzziness etc.) requires more that just viewing the video in slo-mo IMHO.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (SFCharlie)

As for dust, trying to separate dust from camera and compression artifacts (fuzziness etc.) requires more that just viewing the video in slo-mo IMHO

The on-shore wind wasn’t light that evening either which would have forced most of the initial dust into the now windward open garage and exit through the ventilation shafts and any vertical chase not sealed; for instance the elevator shaft. Now where does that exit again? Hmmm…

Created this mainly to scratch a mental itch. Attempting to replicate the appearance of CCTV frame 1.

The model cannot actually be distorted so this was done in Photoshop.
The central section has been moved downwards by about 1 floor. No attempt made to render the interface between sections; just treated it as an (unrealistic) clean slice.
Lights have been added to aid positioning.
I have not added/shown the interior/rear of building which appears to be visible behind descending central section.

All based upon my amateur observations.

Quote (Santos81)

The on-shore wind wasn’t light that evening either which would have forced most of the initial dust into the now windward open garage and exit through the ventilation shafts and any vertical chase not sealed; for instance the elevator shaft. Now where does that exit again? Hmmm…

It was gusting what, 30mph on and off? Everything would have been pretty water soaked too which would have minimized dust as well, especially from the deck collapse.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Hi everyone Ive run to pictures through some software, Look at the column with yellow paint..now about 40 percent from the bottom of the beam look through each gap in the gate from left to right the top side of the beam is visible for about 8 gaps at the 7th gap the underside of the beam is visible, there is also at the top of the first gap in the bars there seems to be an angle to the column at the top.I believe its possible that the base of column m 10 has its corners hidden by the bars in the last image and the top part is missing.

Quote (SFCharlie)

Thank you for calling our attention to the nytimespost - June 26, 2021 Article

I never heard of the "New York Times Post" before. I go to that link and only see 3 paragraphs. It looks like they're just reposting an article from USA Today: Link

You need a subscription to view that article.

Take Away: Miami-Dade has a conflict of interest investigating Champlain Collapse due allowing the apparent irresponsible building of 87 Park adjacent to Champlain, with for example, damaging pile/construction vibrations as close as 10 feet from Champlain garage wall. Miami-Dade should have required vibration monitoring equipment be installed on adjacent buildings, by independent testing agent, to monitor and thus ensure pile driving/construction vibrations had no adverse effects to adjacent buildings. Surfside should have stepped in once notified of problem, and assisted Condo Association in legal action to require responsible construction techniques.

Excerpt from Structural Damage from Adjacent Construction Projects – Expert Article from Robson Forensic website, link below:
There are several ways that harmful vibration levels due to construction activities can cause damage to neighboring properties and structures. The most common include; damage to a structure directly from the energy of the vibration source, resonant structure response (i.e. the natural frequency of the building and soil matches the frequency of the ground movement causing uncontrollable shaking) and/or the densification of soils supporting a building structure resulting in settlement. All these vibrational effects can result in cosmetic damage and/or irreparable structural damage.

Vibration can occur from numerous construction activities, including:

Blasting
Pile driving
Compaction / dynamic compaction
Jackhammering / chiseling
Vibrofloatation
Pavement breakers
Demolition
Trenching activities
Heavy vehicle traffic
If construction activities which include potentially damaging vibration are scheduled to occur on a specific job site, it is imperative that one or all of the suggested measures below be implemented:

A well-planned due-diligence investigation and project coordination of neighboring properties. An example would be to determine if a neighboring facility has sensitive electronic, instrumentation or imaging equipment such as an MRI that may be disrupted by construction related vibration activities.
A pre-construction survey of all adjoining structures
A geotechnical report that clearly identifies the underlying soil strata and geologic conditions
Specifications for the control of construction vibrations
Pre-planning to avoid potential vibration damage by selection of alternate construction equipment. For example, auguring/pre-drilling piles as opposed to pile driving.
Construction logs of equipment and approximate time frames of construction
Vibration monitoring by a licensed testing agency
Building movement monitoring of neighboring structures by a licensed testing agency
Prior to construction activity, it can be desirable to establish a benchmark, especially if there is pre-existing damage such as settlement or structural deficiencies to neighboring structures. This particularly holds true if the building is older and would have a tendency for a lower tolerance of vibration induced damage.

Furthermore, forensic studies following a claimed damage event, to determine if a building was damaged by neighboring construction vibrations, should include knowledge of the geological conditions, where the vibration producing activity took place on the construction site, if there were any monitoring devices, and whether there were pre-construction surveys that could be evaluated as a bench mark for pre-existing damage. Therefore, it is imperative to document the location and type of construction activities which occur relative to the potential damage.

https://www.robsonforensic.com/articles/structural...

NY Post Article with source from USA Today and Palm Beach Post opened full article on iphone and Google Chrome on Mac. Did not open full article in Safari on Mac, so could be ad blocking software or privacy settings causing problems

But they already told us construction vibration and flaws don't matter.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Consider the Source.............

So the building next door was completed two years ago, with the pile driving done sometime before that.

So why would you think the vibration contributed to the building falling? How would that work over such a long time?

I'm not seeing a connection.


spsalso

I'm thinking the rapid deterioration of the structure that started to happen in the 2018/2019 time frame after the initial Morabito inspection is the connection there, along Miami-Dade not taking due care to make sure they were not affecting the Town of Surfside, and the Town of Surfside's building official not giving a shit for lack of better language about the situation at CTS during the construction of the adjacent property. From the very get go there were concerns over the integrity of the ground around foundation of CTS by residents/board members as well as the integrity of the boarder support wall. There were some really well informed people in the CTS building it seemed. CTS residents/board members and Morabito seem, to my eyes here, are the only parties that cared about this building. Everyone else had blinders on.
Another fine example of the normalization of deviance.

The back and forth with the condo and the towns over the construction and the damage it was doing to their building is fairly well documented. Some of this even included styrofoam getting trapped in the deck drains and constantly clogging them, as well as other sand and dust debris, which is one of the contributing factors in the damage around the failed waterproofing just taking off exponentially.

It was so bad, construction crews were ordered to daily clean the 8777 Collins Ave lot. To make matters worse there, the Town of Surfside wanted to fine CTS for the debris left all over.

This situation is a whole lot more off-kilter than a building just simply collapsing in the middle of the night with no warning.

Covid certainly didn't help the situation either.

Buildings are built next to each other every day, in every city, in every country, across the world. This includes buildings with deep foundations in urban settings, with next to zero clearance. It's unrealistic to look at this as some unique situation that caused the collapse. While I don't think anything can be ruled out, there is no actual evidence, other than circumstantial to make a connection between 87 Park and CTS.

Maybe it happens, but I have not seen a case where a Building Official requires one property owner that is building, to set up vibration monitoring for adjacent properties. I have seen where private owners have taken on the monitoring responsibility to protect themselves from adjacent property owners trying to come back and allege damage after the fact. Another common practice is performing a pre-existing conditions surveys (photos/videos) to document existing cracks and conditions before the vibration causing activities begin. I have seen lawsuits over this topic (i.e. you owe me a new house because of this crack in my wall).

I did find it interesting that the Town of Surfside posted a report on this exact same topic on its website along with other actual contemporaneous documents related to the building. My take was they were trying to point the finger at Miami-Dade, as the vibration theory would be the most convenient cause for them, allowing them to avoid their own liability.

Normally it doesn't happen, correct. That is where the history of the whole assortment of jackleg construction, maintenance, and repairs that went on with this building, from the permitted to unpermitted, takes it's place in the picture. This structure was inherently weaker than designed and originally built, from large sections of concrete being replaced at full slab depth poorly (Even the slump tests were trash at what, 9" with additional water added?) to the whole mess of where's the rebar. The concrete was trash.

Could construction and excess vibration to an already not structurally sound building contribute to it's rapidly deteriorating state and ultimate collapse, on top of multiple water intrusion issues and overweighting issues? Silly question, I know.


Surfside and Miami need to work together me thinks, rather than against each other.
However Surfside must also realize they need to take a step back. One of their officials, though a former employee, seems to have possibly done some major oopsies, and as painful as it may be, the brother that is the county needs to take over.

Here’s an archived version of the USA Today piece that some were interested in reading. It requires no account.

“Building Collapse in Miami: A Number of Factors Could Have Contributed”

Vibration Analysis Required by FDOT for roadway projects, so perhaps or perhaps not, private building construction needs similar protection in Florida? One would assume litigation is why FDOT changed their regulations, and that is what it typically requires in the private world if needed.

Within 200 feet for sheet pile installation, and Champlain garage wall was 10 feet from sheet pile driving? Gotta Wonder?

Construction vibrations are a known nuisance and can damage existing structures if they are not properly monitored and accounted for. As a proactive means to mitigate vibration damage claims, nearby buildings should be inspected prior to and after construction and monitored during construction.
For example, on roadway projects in the state of Florida, the Florida Department of Transportation requires vibration monitoring on nearby structures. Based on Chapter 108-2 of the FDOT Standard Specifications for Road and Bridge Construction, during construction of retaining walls and foundations for bridges, buildings, and structures, all nearby structures within 200 feet of sheet pile installation/extraction, and within 100 feet of soldier pile installation/extraction must be inspected, surveyed, and monitored for settlement. In addition, when performing roadway compaction operations, all nearby structures within 75 feet of vibratory compaction operations must be surveyed and monitored for settlement.

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=97a127c9-30c8-4f45-a3ab-3

As reported to Mr. Pietro on the 23rd of January, 2019, with not a care in the world given.




Gotta love that location for some trenching action.

@Demented, or anyone else - can any of you discern what kind of vehicle this is? Could be the lack of pixels but it doesn't look quite like a normal passenger vehicle. Or perhaps I'm just not imaginative enough...

edit: Second photo looks like it could be a Hummer? I'm realizing that's a planter behind it, oops. Carry on...

Quote (Demented)

Gotta love that location for some trenching action.

Care to explain what the perceived problem is?

I just finished updating the Timeline: CTS Collapse Witness Statements spreadsheet to include Jonah Handler (1002) and Angela and Deven Gonzalez (904,) as it is conceivable that someday they might be able to share details about their experiences. I also reformatted the spreadsheet so that each link is in a unique cell, making the links easier to click, and added a Source column to indicate where the link came from, as some of the links are archived.

Please let me know if I need to make any corrections. And, if you have other sources that provide additional details for a survivor listed in this timeline, please let me know. As an example, I have read that several of you understand that Angela Gonzalez in 904 heard sounds from above, yet I was unable to find an article that says anything other than she heard "a strange noise." If anyone has a link that provides more detail, please provide it. Please note that my objective for this spreadsheet was deliberately focused: the timeline only includes the survivors of the collapsed parts of the building, plus Shamoka Furman, the security guard.

I will continue to monitor news stories that feature the survivors from the part of the building that collapsed, in case we can get any additional clues from their remarks. Until we get new information from the survivors included in this timeline, I don't foresee making any other updates to this particular spreadsheet.

@Demented, would it be helpful to the group to have a spreadsheet to collect your research into permitted and unpermitted work? I would be willing to set up an input form that writes to a spreadsheet, if you and others would be willing to use it.

FWIW, no one used the previously developed input form/spreadsheet for theories and hypotheses, so it may be that this group finds no value in that kind of compilation or collaborative deliverable. In IT, which is where I have been since my long-ago stint as an outside plant engineer (a specification job,) we don't talk about anything without documenting our work to benefit the team and avoid going down the same rabbit hole more than once. So some kind of deliverable is force of habit in my world. If it's not something that SEs and other engineers need after all this discussion, then that's fine too. Just let me know.

The one inconsistency that is bothering me in the witness statements is Vazquez/Accardi didn't report seeing any debris in the garage from the first 1:10 wall collapse. It should have been obvious since it probably was near the end of the entrance ramp.

It's possible it whatever fell fell between parked cars and obscured from view. More likely they did see some debris on the ground and just forgot to mention it in their statement.

Don't know if you want to add this to your witness statements - Describes how Justin Willis and family escaped and what they saw.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/319...

@MaudSTL a Wiki would certainly come in handy here...

Quote (Debirlfan (Mechanical)2 Aug 21 03:46)

From the ESPN article,

"Three loud bangs roused Willis from the living room couch. They came in succession, starting with the familiar boom of what sounded like a coastal storm, escalating until Willis thought a jet was taxiing on the roof. His parents, Albert and Janette Aguero, jumped out of bed. They didn't know what was happening either. His father went to the balcony. Firefighters had arrived below. Concrete dust filled the air. Get out!, a firefighter shouted. So they headed through double doors that led to the hallway ...

They remember leaving their condo at 1:25 ...

THEY SNAPPED PICTURES from the beach. That's how they knew how long it had been. Janette's photo was time-stamped at 1:36 a.m. Albert's said 1:38 ..."

The three loud bangs are interesting, one likely the parkade and another at least one phase of the main building collapse.

Quote (MaudSTL (Computer)2 Aug 21 02:31)

The forum can be a lonely space. That doesn't mean your contributions aren't valuable.

A thought regarding the ESPN article:

It wasn't until after the third bang (and probably the lights going out?) that they were concerned enough to investigate what was going on. Some here have said that the collapse couldn't have been triggered by part of the roof/something on it falling because residents below would have noticed and reported it. Well, it took half the building collapsing to get these people off the couch, and they were awake whereas others were probably sleeping.

I've tried to look up the local weather for the day and night of the collapse, but have been unable to find it. I think someone said that the roofing crew quit early because it started raining? And that it was windy that night? If that's the case, I could picture tools or materials not being secured properly/a particular job not being completed because the guys wanted to get out of the weather. Wind gusts could blow loose items around.

@Debirlfan and Sym P.le - I'm curious about this bit from the article, this is the first time I've seen this information:

"The family eventually found the street through a neighboring building and headed to nearby Harding Avenue, where a woman with a suitcase told them that she was packed and ready for something like this to happen. She left after the first bang and watched part of the building disintegrate."

It's interesting from a timeline perspective (granted, she may have been on a lower floor close to the exit) that she heard the first boom, had enough time to grab a suitcase, evacuate and observe the building collapse...also, was she ready for something like this to happen because she's an anxious person who needs to prepare for any possible scenario, or was she aware and increasingly nervous about issues within the building?

Quote (Debirlfan (Mechanical)2 Aug 21 06:18)

The concorde passed over our house one day while taking off. We got out of the house in a hurry, if not just for the spectacle of the yet unknown cause of the racket.

I too tried looking for weather data for the Miami area and quickly gave up. If anyone knows of a good source, please post.

Although I am not quick to dismiss roofing activity as a potential source of a triggering event, I have yet to see anything close to convincing evidence. I suspect the weakest link is the above ground parking adjacent to the thirty foot span between pool deck columns, i.e. design, construction, environmental and maintenance issues associated with same.

Quote (arbitraria (Civil/Environmental)2 Aug 21 06:31)

It wouldn't be unreasonable for an informed occupant to prepare for a time when authorities gave short notice that the structure represented an imminent hazard. That the situation played out as it did is horrific.

The witness timeline reminds us of the "first collapse". Something at 1:10, apparently inside the building, let go before the main collapse of the pool deck at 1:14. What was it? Logically it occupies a place on the pathway to full collapse as either (A) an event that precipitated the deck collapse, or B an event related to impending but not yet full collapse of the pool deck (?catenary force on the columns?). Thus: collapse1> pool deck collapse> general collapse; or: deck distortion> collapse1 inside and then deck collapse outside> general collapse. (arrows are causal links as well as a chronology). Otherwise we need a different event again and as has been often stated there is no direct evidence of additional events. Either way the Nir's Collapse 1 seems worthy of further thought. I noted that some other published models/reconstructions have walls breaking in the lower floors before the pool deck fails completely, but no (other) evidence was given to support this.

An important note regarding the emergency stairway exits. Once the elevators cut out, only the first floor residents had access to the building front entrance and thus direct street access. Anyone coming down the west (main) stairs would be led onto the pool deck or into the parkade. Once the pool deck collapsed, that exit option was blocked and the only means of egress was through the parkade which, of course, was at least partially collapsed and required navigating the debris or retreating to higher floors to await FD assistance.

The east stairs were a death trap as they only offered the parkade as an escape route.

Perhaps a rethink of emergency exits is necessary if not already done.

@MaudSTL
I have no issue adding stuff to a sheet. I'm all for it, and TBH don't remember why I didn't post on it initially. I would have to go through it all again since my original notes were mostly focuses on trying to calculate how much more weight was added to the slabs which I quickly gave up after realizing the scope of the bafoonery at play on the entire non-Collin's Ave side of the building.

I'm still waiting on a lot of documents regarding the permits, and clarifications on actual locations of things, such as the crane location for the T-Mobie tower upgrade. There's some interesting things here in regards to the proposed placement of the crane and it's actual specifications on reach.



@Sym P. le @Debirlfan
Although I do not have historical data for that day, I was in the area (edit: I was fishing. There started to be some tropical fish kills due to large upwellings of colder water more north of Miami-Dade as well that week beginning on the morning of the 23rd). I'm sure the NOAA has historical data somewhere.
Mid day temperature reached 91*F. Winds were a constant 5-10mph throughout the day, E to ESE, with the occasional gust up to 15-20.
Around 4:40-4:50 the afternoon thunderstorms began dropping around 5/16"-7/16" of rain between then and 8PM or so.
Maximum observed wind was gusting up to 24mph.

Edit: @Sym P. le
The MDFD radio chatter as well as 911 calls give a good look into the emergency exit layout. Everything was cut off from the ground floor. People couldn't get out, and 911 calls were made from inside the collapsed section before it fell; I still don't see how people are under the assumption that residents were not up and trying to flee.

Morabito was adding fire doors to all the stair wells I believe. Well, planning to.

Quote (Demented (Industrial)2 Aug 21 10:37)

Thanks for your response.

I forgot about the potential crane issue, it will be interesting to see what's up with that. OTOH it might be difficult to connect subtle northside slab damage with the pool deck collapse.

By your observations, there is no reason to suspect rainwater accumulation leading up to the collapse.

I was dumbfounded as I came to the realization that the stairwells represented a false hope to emergency egress.

Was Morabito adding doors or just replacing them?

In the days leading up there was roughly 2.88" of rain total in the area. With the clogged drains, rain accumulation on the damaged deck is still likely a factor.

As far as north slab damage, I agree it would be unrelated. It would only serve as more evidence of negligence or ignorance by town officials in regards to this building's actual structure.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Does anyone know of any close up photos of the rebar so 60 grade can be verified?

I did not see 60 grade marks or double lines on the ones I saw.

The plans specified 60 grade. Was it?

Regards,

Mojojohn

Quote (AusG)

the Nir's Collapse 1 seems worthy of further thought.

What’s tricky about the 1:10 AM Collapse 1 (which sounded like a wall collapsing above) is that the Vazquezes didn’t report seeing concrete rubble in the garage when they came in right before the 1:15 AM deck collapse (Collapse 2.)

Just five minutes before the deck collapse, something fell somewhere that didn’t impede driving down the ramp and parking.

We don’t know which parking space the Vazquezes were assigned.

Quote (Debirlfan (Mechanical))

I've tried to look up the local weather for the day and night of the collapse

14 miles away is the Miami International Airport weather station. Preceding the collapse there was about 1/3 inch of rain in the 5-7pm timeframe and a mild <10mph easterly breeze (that means going from east to west). Air temperature was a pretty constant 81 F.
https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/us/fl/m...

@MOJOJOHN
Original construction I am unsure of. Repairs used grade 40.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

I believe this weather station is located in Surfside:

https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KFLMIAM...

Scroll down the page to “Weather History for KFLMIAMI597” and set the dates.

Quote (Demented (Industrial) 2 Aug 21 14:09)

Repairs used grade 40.

Were you able to confirm this or are you just reading off the prints? What @MOJOJOHN was asking is has anyone verified that what was called out on the prints is actually what was used? Substitutions and change orders happen all the time and contractors sometimes use inferior components to save money. We can not expect to know the truth of what happened by just reading off what was called out on the prints. That is why when we were discussing fire alarm systems I mentioned that I didn't know if the system was original, because I know that there are likely changes to components or programing that may not be shown on original prints or even as-builts. Proper forensic investigation practices require that what was actually used, (whether original or repair) gets confirmed and proven by observation or testing building components after the collapse.

MaudSTL,

I scrolled thru hundreds of IG posts, some of the videos were from smaller Hispanic news stations and Journalists. I couldn't find a way to translate them on IG. But several of them looked like interviews of other people. It would be great if we could find someone that is Bilingual to translate a few of them. Actually if many of the original interviews could be found in the survivor's native language they would probably be more informative, would you agree?

Just a thought, though I'm sure MDPD has now taken formal statements from them by now.
And if it hasn't already happened... anyone joining in a lawsuit will be told not to speak on it anymore and any settlement will probably contain a Non-Disparagement clause.

So our window of opportunity is likely closing.

Quote (MaudSTL (Computer) 2 Aug 21 12:34 )

What’s tricky about the 1:10 AM Collapse 1 (which sounded like a wall collapsing above) is that the Vazquezes didn’t report seeing concrete rubble in the garage when they came in right before the 1:15 AM deck collapse (Collapse 2.)

Just five minutes before the deck collapse, something fell somewhere that didn’t impede driving down the ramp and parking.

We don’t know which parking space the Vazquezes were assigned.

That's why I question whether something might have fallen outside onto the patio deck. Whether part of the roof, something that was on the roof, or even something from a balcony. If something fell, even if someone looked out, it was dark and they might not have seen it.

And I can't imagine how that staircase with no lobby exit was ever allowed. Kind of defeats the purpose of having an emergency staircase. Then again, if the front doors actually did lock when the power went out....

@Nukeman98
I actually didn't see any grade callouts in the repair contracts either. Need to look more.
100% assumption based off of close-ups of rebar in known repared sections that didn't have grade markings on it. May have a screenshot on my home computer, but videos and pictures from a certain resident of the other building are no longer available which sucks.

Thankfully photos of these repairs were taken before, during, and after. Unfortunately, they seem to be unable to be provided by Surfside and they're deflecting that off to Miami-Dade.

I'm still trying to find out how the new rebar was coupled to the existing, if it was. They were doing weld repairs on units at the same time as well.

Quote (Sym P. le (Mechanical)2 Aug 21 06:43)

If anyone knows of a good source, please post.

Let me be the 37th person to recommend:
Miami, FL Weather History
I believe Rodface's is better, more local

Quote (rodface (Mechanical)2 Aug 21 14:44)

I believe this weather station is located in Surfside:
Scroll down the page to “Weather History for KFLMIAMI597” and set the dates.

https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KFLMIAM...

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

@optical98 can you share any links of spanish-language interviews?

Surfside Tragedy Spurs, Rather Than Slows, Miami’s Condo Market

https://commercialobserver.com/2021/08/champlain-t...

"He (Peter Zalewski) predicts a surge in condo terminations as condo owners begin to scrutinize their own faltering buildings in the wake of Champlain Towers South’s collapse and face costly repairs to the tune of hundreds of thousands dollars with few new takers. The procedure allows developers to buy an entire property if more than 80 percent of unit owners agree to sell. Developers typically tear down the existing structure and construct a new one."

Spurs as in Developers and Investors see an opportunity...

Rodface,

I'll have to scroll back thru them, will post some links in a bit.

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)2 Aug 21 15:50)

I couldn't find a way to translate them on IG.

Can they be copy-pasted into chrome browser? On it's newtab page there's a keypad logo in the upper right corner of the page, click and You can scroll down just a little and there is a translation button that takes you to a page where you can enter any language on the left and select any language on the right side of the page. have fun.
Sorry if this was already obvious, or if IG prevents you from copying...
Link

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Rodface and SF Charlie

Here's one

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQi9I9OJuPR/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQqbHNlA02C/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQkK3PzDbAx/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQmIMkYjGE7/

If these are translated, please share, thanks!

Quote (MaudeSTL)

What’s tricky about the 1:10 AM Collapse 1 (which sounded like a wall collapsing above) is that the Vazquezes didn’t report seeing concrete rubble in the garage when they came in right before the 1:15 AM deck collapse

I think we have to treat all witness statement times as approximate. Who goes through their day watching the clock constantly? I remember taking my trash bin to the curb this morning around 0645 but it could have been closer to 0700. There's no way I could say precisely what time it was. Know whut I mean Vern?

Here’s an archived version of the Miami-Herald feature “Sea rise under scrutiny in condo collapse: Corrosion likely, but no sign of sinkhole.”

If the progressive failure of the patio slab originated at the construction joint nearest the pool (and furthest from the building) it would explain why there would have been no concrete rubble debris visible at the ramp. As that would have been the last area to have failed of the slab if the progressive patio failure slowly chewed its way towards the building.

It would also explain why the noises in 111 got progressively louder and more intense. Culminating with the collapse of the parking area immediately adjacent to the lobby as witnessed by Nir while she made the complaint related to being disturbed by construction noises.

@MaudSTL I'd love to see a list of parking space assignments. My gut is telling me that there's more to the story with either the Vazqyez's or the Zion's.

Maud,

Thank you! I couldn't get past the 'wall' on that one. I'm going to try archiving articles as I find them too.

Quote (Optical98)

Actually if many of the original interviews could be found in the survivor's native language they would probably be more informative, would you agree?

Totally agree. As the Timeline shows, I was able to find interviews native language statements or interviews with Nicolas Vazquez and Ileana Monteagudo, but not with the Nirs. As I’ve previously mentioned, I think the Israeli Channel 13 interview with Gabe Nir would be a good one to find. But I only have one friend in Israel, and she didn’t find it. No one, so far as I know, has interviewed Shamoka Furman in Spanish or English. Jonah Handler and Angela and Deven Gonzalez, who were pulled from the rubble, are either already part of lawsuits or still in the hospital, so I don’t think they will be interviewed any time soon.

In Notes column in the Timeline, I listed questions I wish someone would ask the survivors, and I’m sure they are the tip of the iceberg. Can you think of questions we should ask them that I missed?

>>>>>Edit: When we were trying to figure out which wall cracked in her apartment, AtomixPro did a very good translation of Ileana Monteagudo’s interview. There’s a link to the thread that contains it in the Timeline spreadsheet.

Maud,

I would ask all of them if at some point they noticed a particular smell and where it seemed strongest.

Names and interviews that should be added:

Roberto Castillero and Adriana Sarmiento - the couple staying at Bluegreen and she made video of the garage ramp area. So far all interviews I've seen are with him, because he is bilingual.

I would ask him to be more definitive regarding (1)"garage roof coming down", because the roof fell under the front drive thru area too, it would help our timeline as to which happened first.(2) Ask them if they smelled anything, saw any smoke prior to collapse.
(3)How many people did they see on their balconies? They were out setting by the pool area of their hotel,(4) did they see any vehicles enter or exit the CTS garage before they heard the noises etc.

Steve Rosenthal Unit 705 - He gave several interviews

Esther Gofinkel and Alfredo Lopez - https://www.businessinsider.com/surfside-collapsed...


Susana Alvarez Unit 1006 - https://www.npr.org/2021/06/27/1010676940/surfside...

Albert Aguero 11th floor - https://www.nj.com/hudson/2021/06/west-new-york-fa...

Questions:

Where was the crane located? Where was the tar kettle located? Had any vehicles recently been parked on the deck? Did you hear any strange noises before that night? What was the first time you heard noises that night? Did you look outside, and if so, what did you see?

Who was the woman with the suitcase? What unit was she in? Was she a member of the condo board?

Is the inspector related to the woman with the same last name who's unit was for sale?

For anyone who was in the basement pre-collapse. Did you see any debris? Any water? (As in, water from broken pipes.) Hear any sounds?

Debirlfan

Woman with a suitcase?

"Is the inspector related to the woman with the same last name who's unit was for sale?"

Are you referring to Maricela P. Prieto, sister of Rosendo R. Prieto
and owner of Unit 1111? I didn't know the unit was for sale. It was being rented by
Gloria Machado at the time of the collapse.

Quote (Optical98 (Computer))

Woman with a suitcase?

"Is the inspector related to the woman with the same last name who's unit was for sale?"

Are you referring to Maricela P. Prieto, sister of Rosendo R. Prieto
and owner of Unit 1111? I didn't know the unit was for sale. It was being rented by
Gloria Machado at the time of the collapse.

The woman with the suitcase was mentioned in the ESPN article I posted above:
"The family eventually found the street through a neighboring building and headed to nearby Harding Avenue, where a woman with a suitcase told them that she was packed and ready for something like this to happen. She left after the first bang and watched part of the building disintegrate."

Yes, I'm referring to Prieto. Someone back a thread or two had posted a real estate listing for the property, unfortunately I didn't save the link. I suppose it's possible that it was a listing for a rental, but the impression I had was that it was for sale. Maybe the poster still has the link?

@Debirlfan - no idea if there was a more recent listing, but according to this, unit 1111 wasn't for sale. Listing below showed it going on the market in December 2018, Zillow has it removed in February 2019.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/...

I just came across this old lawsuit - Unit 112 vs CTS regarding wall damages.

It's 12 pages, that contain Exhibits of when the CTS HOA board along with a quorum of owners changed some of the By-Laws. Changing the responsibilities of certain upkeep/maintenance issues from CTS to owners.

https://www.scribd.com/document/512921705/Wall-Dam...

I have wondered what exactly the Owner's monthly maintenance fees ($700-$900) per month..what all was that supposed to cover? Was there a detailed list? I did see a financial stmt once, but it lacked several details.

Quote (Debirlfan)

Where was the crane located? Where was the tar kettle located?

Easier to just look.

Well for rebar where repairs were, here's all I have thus far.

Privacy wall repair/modification, 2005
2-#50 A615 Grade 60 deformed 48" OC doweled 6"-8" into existing southern support wall terminating at end of pool deck (~130')
2-#5 3'x3' corner bars Grade 60 deformed, unknown amount

Pool deck slab repair, full depth, and column repair, under planters.
#5 steel rods doweled 4" into existing slab at 16" OC
3-#5 steel rods inserted into columns, bent and doweled 4" into slab
No call-out on grade

Balcony, column, interior slab, full slab depth, upper cooling tower beam, and parapat wall repair over the span from 2001-2009. Many permits, but the majority of this work was by the same engineering firm in a never-ending repair cycle of fixing the same thing thrice. Supervisory issues with day laborers it seems.
Per the plans
For replacement of rebar corroded by 25% or more,
#4 and #5 A615 Grade 60 Carbon Steel
Non-contact 4" lap splice with 3/4" gapping

For supplement of rebar corroded by 25% or more,
#4 and #5 A615 Grade 60 Carbon Steel
Minimum 30 bar diameter non-contact splice with 3/4" gapping
8" minimum bar depth dowelled

I'm still trying to figure out how much total was replaced.
Per the field notes:
This was all at the on-site engineer's discretion, so we also have on the fly additions of A36 mechanically spliced noted, #3 bar being added in front of railing supports, #4 and $5 bar being added around railing posts that was not there in the first place, and bars needing to be "replaced" because of burnt ends. Though the concrete work on this repair is by far the issue and not rebar here, even where A36 was used. (This is what I saw and let me to assume Grade 40)
Excluding the full beam, over 2000cf concrete replaced. 9" slumps, 2+h delays on pumping, water added after testing, supplier changes, a switch to bagged concrete and hand mixing. The photos are a must with this work.


Edit: Just so I hope everyone is on the same page. The majority of the issues found and noted in the Morabito report, such as the spalling, failed epoxy repairs, cracked slabs, etc, is all the same crap that was "fixed" in the above.

@Debirlfan
The link was
https://www.condoblackbook.com/surfside/champlain-...

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

arbitaria

The listing I saw was posted by Demented several threads ago, but the post has been deleted, and I don't have the link. I could be wrong about it being a sale listing, but I remember it listed the condo fees, and I thought it listed a price.

Santos81

First time I've seen that photo, thanks.

@Demented

Thanks! Just wish I'd seen your post before I went looking for it.

Quote (Debirlfan)

First time I've seen that photo, thanks.

No problem. Attached is the unedited full tile in .png

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=3947e0c4-0025-4cc6-8812-7

What was the date on that image?

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Demented )

What was the date on that image?

It’s indexed as 2021_06_23. I believe the flyover was the 22nd as all the other usable imagery from the 23rd is partially obscured by cloud cover.

There isn’t a geospatial metadata file along with it and no date in the exif data to provide the exact time.

Quote (MOJOJOHN)

Rebar pic: https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2021/07/upda...

Quote (Jedidad)

I think we have to treat all witness statement times as approximate. Who goes through their day watching the clock constantly?

In the Timeline file, I used a tilde (~) in front of all times we are approximating, which is most of them.

Exceptions are whatever has a known time stamp, e.g. 911 calls, the garage ramp video Adriana Sarmiento shot at 1:18, and Rosie Santana’s 711 Ring video at 1:22. I also include three times that Sarah Nir (111j reports, because she was using her phone to do time stamped emails and messages, i.e. 12:45 she sat down and noticed the knocking sounds, 1:10 she heard Collapse 1 (the sound of the wall above them falling down,) and 1:14 she went to the lobby to talk to the security guard.

Santos81,

Re: Roof Image with Crane

That is odd because we know there were pallets of tar paper and small kettles still on the roof June 24th. There doesn't look to be anything like that on the 22nd, yet there's a crane in the Bluegreen Hotel's parking area? Granted that's a very grainy image.

What's the source, Google Earth? How can we get dated imagery?

Quote (Optical98)

That is odd because we know there were pallets of tar paper and small kettles still on the roof June 24th. There doesn't look to be anything like that on the 22nd, yet there's a crane in the Bluegreen Hotel's parking area?

The whole purpose of having a crane is to lift things up to the roof that are too heavy or bulky for the elevator.
From the shadow of the building I would guess the time to be around 11:00 AM and if quitting time is 4:00 PM that means they have four hours to lift those items up to the roof and one hour to break down the crane for road travel.

Also, it looks like the roof anchors were done early.

Edit: Yeah, they also used the crane to raise and lower the tar buggies up and down from the roof to the tar kettle that stayed on the ground.

Tar kettle heats up tar, buggies are like wheelbarrows that are used to move the hot tar from where the crane can lift to, to where the workers need it.

Nukeman948

So they wouldn't keep the crane there until the job is done to lower the kettles/buggies back down?

Nice image @Santos81.

I have placed the June-22 aerial alongside the hi-res Bing aerials and distorted/resized it so that the roofs line up (june 22 at bottom left, Bing bottom right).

I have enhanced the untouched June-22 aerial to try and bring out details (original top left, enhanced top right).



Full res attached: https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=...

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=acce5de8-a542-4ce9-9fcf-b

Quote (Optical98)

So they wouldn't keep the crane there until the job is done to lower the kettles/buggies back down?

Not likely. I haven't seen the work schedule but they would need to patch the roof where they put the roof anchors and it looks like they finished the roof on the elevator machine room. It would make sense to wait for the AC guys (and other crews) to do their work before the new roof gets done so they don't damage it. The crane was probably scheduled to return in a couple weeks. There was no where near enough roofing material up there to finish the job and it would be in the way of the other trades. Job coordination sets the schedule.

Quote (MaudSTL)

I also include three times that Sarah Nir (111j reports, because she was using her phone to do time stamped emails and messages, i.e. 12:45 she sat down and noticed the banging sounds, 1:10 she heard Collapse 1 (the sound of the wall above them falling down,) and 1:14 she went to the lobby to talk to the security guard.

Kind of odd that Sara Nir sat around for 4 minutes after hearing the wall above them falling down.

How many different interviews did Sara Nir give where she mentioned a wall falling down above her? I’ve seen/read a at least a few where there was no such mention of that.

How Robots Helped Out After the Surfside Condo Collapse: Responders flew drones night and day to survey the collapse and search for survivors

Quote (Optical98)

That is odd because we know there were pallets of tar paper and small kettles still on the roof June 24th. There doesn't look to be anything like that on the 22nd, yet there's a crane in the Bluegreen Hotel's parking area? Granted that's a very grainy image.

What's the source, Google Earth? How can we get dated imagery?

Maxar provided the image; I realize now where it came from and probably shouldn’t have uploaded it but what’s done is done. It was linked into a briefing to show the staging area “the day before”.

The parking spaces on the north side of 88th don’t belong to that hotel. They are public pay parking that were blocked off for construction staging per permit issued, M-F 8:30a-3:30p, Public Safety Officer on site for parking enforcement and traffic control.

The items you mention are very close to, or in some cases, exactly where they were positioned at the time of collapse with the exception of the crane and boom lift as they were stored off-site. The tar kettle trailers were stored outside the building on the north side behind the half wall spanning between the garage ramp and contractor parking.

Quote (rodface)

Nice image

Heh…I may have inadvertently stepped in it this time. Thanks WhatsApp.

The only two notable things are:

- UPH work had progressed to the north side;
away from the magic parapet/heat pump/davit/737-8/Ro-Ro/etc…

- Heavy Equipment staging position

Good article Maud!

This is interesting -

"Unmanned ground bomb squad robots were reportedly used on at least two occasions in the standing portion of the structure during the response, once to investigate and document the garage and once on July 9 to hold a repeater for a drone flying in the standing portion of the garage. Note that details about the ground robots are not yet available and there may have been more missions, though not on the order of magnitude of the drone use."

This is great tho -

"drones were used to read license plates to help identify residents, search for pets, and document belongings inside parts of the standing structure for families. In a novel use of drones for physical interaction, MDFR squads flew drones to attempt to find and pick up items in the standing portion of the structure with immense value to survivors."

Quote (Spartan5)

Kind of odd that Sara Nir sat around for 4 minutes after hearing the wall above them falling down.

How many different interviews did Sara Nir give where she mentioned a wall falling down above her? I’ve seen/read a at least a few where there was no such mention of that.

She probably needed to put on some shoes and gram some things. Maybe it took her a minute to make up her mind and walk down there.

Also one reason I think the Nirs might have thought the noises were coming from above is because there would have been a strong echo off the balconies and the plaza ceiling. It may also be a translation error.

Quote (Illustr8r)

Miami herald article about missing records-mirror

No way, records are missing from the town of surfside? Related to this spectacular failure? And Ross prieto is implicated?

Fishy.

I noted this multiple times in my DIRECT communication with the 'town' (a subset of Miami-Dade "corruption" county.)

Quote (Nukeman948)

Quote (Red Corona)
@Js5180 if the two flashes are indeed the result of the conduits being cut in the corridor ceilings of 9 and 11

If electrics are in odd floors and that's what we think the blue light in x10 stack is then making those on floors 9 and 11 goes with the 'missing 13th floor' interpretation (see my floor correlation pic higher up the thread).

Were these flashes before or after the conduits got bent downwards by around 10 ft.? Were the flashes at the end of the conduits or at the meter bases? Where exactly did each phase wire fail?
As I've said before, you will never be able to prove anything to me by trying to interpret the flashes on that fuzzy video.

An odd (but accurate) explanation is many jurisdictions require electric meter rooms and their circuits every 2nd or 3rd floor. The purpose is to limit their staff time reading meters (which doesn't matter anymore today with smart meters.) This explains why every other floor had electric cut.

Quote (MaudSTL)

Nicolas Vazquez and his wife Gimena Accardi were in the elevator when the deck collapsed, having just parked in the garage. In his WhatsApp audio, Vazquez says that the elevator from the garage stopped at the lobby as usual. In other words, he is saying that the normal experience coming from the garage included the elevator stopping at the lobby.

What would be the purpose of programming the Honeywell to do that?

Once the Fire Alarm went off the elevator is to return to the "star" floor by code. In this instance, it appears to be the lobby. Please do not take statements of witnesses which have lost friends/loved ones/all of their belongings as literal statements. When Steve Wynn had his daughter kidnapped the FBI specifically told him NOT to talk to her because the first story is the right story then it changes from there...

Quote (SFCharlie)

Are you saying ... is not the roof surface hinged down?
What I'm saying and I believe, is that I see the floor 13 penthouse roof parapet intact in frame 22 (the upper most red line), And when I back the red shape into the previous frame, and realign it at it's bottom, that I can make out the PH roof parapet all the way back to frame 7. It fits with the idea that the whole stack has dropped about one floor at the start of the video. I'm definitely not sure what I see above (odd black shape) or to the left of it.
I'm definitely sure I don't know what I see above (odd black shape) or to the left of it.

THIS is exactly what I pointed out in Part 1, FYI...

Quote (Spartan5)

Roof vs pool deck: were major structural defects identified and repairs required for both or just one of them?

As for “spontaneous failure” of the pool deck. It is a possibility. But I don’t think any has said conclusively that that was the case.

Sure, any number of things all more or less equally likely could have fallen from above and triggered the patio failure:
*space debris
*meteorite
*heavy suicide carcass
*cinderblocks, tar paper, and AC units
*drone missile (or just a large drone… I think I saw one with red paint on it)
*UAV
*malicious wheeling of tar buggy off the top
*Failed group BASE jump attempt from poorly installed roof anchor… well just the test anyway… with a green hoist sling full of those tar rolls
*(reserved for suggestions)

If only we had the whole videos. We could see if it was any of that. All are remote possibilities though. Right?

You act like buildings spontaneously fail. They don't. Concrete is brittle and makes weird cracking noises before failure (which the tenants heard) and steel (i.e. rebar) is pretty resilient deflecting more than its design weight before failing, thank you rebar. Spontaneous failure is a joke of a term FYI.

Quote (BKNJ)

When the power went out, the front doors locked. Surely this would be a safety violation? Maybe the doors weren't actually locked, but when the other side of the building collapsed, it jammed the doors?

When the bulk of the collapse happened, it seems in photos that the stucco ceiling going across the front of the first floor detached from the slab and fell across the driveway and right over a black SUV parked there. I suspect that this blocked the front doors and it wasn't immediately realized in the dark and confusion.

Quote:

The guard was helping people escape from the basement. It's unclear how she got there, being as how there's no access to the stairs from the lobby?

Per 111 earlier statement, the guard climbed out the valet window then went BACK IN to help those who tried to get out. The single remaining stairwell dumped out into the pool deck (collapsed) and parking (flooded.) FYI, in most jurisdictions except City of LA (in my experience) this is still allowed. We need to change the code, at least one stair needs to be next to an elevator. The high rise code with standpipe addressed this (which applies to this) but with an 8-story podium we are going to have a real problem soon.

Quote (All About Money (Aerospace)

blah yellow blah

Do you work on neon signs in Vegas, please clarify your thought, I have the leading theory and didn't even read what you copied.

Quote (All About Money)

Take Away: Miami-Dade has a conflict of interest investigating Champlain Collapse due allowing the apparent irresponsible building of 87 Park adjacent to Champlain, with for example, damaging pile/construction vibrations as close as 10 feet from Champlain garage wall. Miami-Dade should have required vibration monitoring equipment be installed on adjacent buildings, by independent testing agent, to monitor and thus ensure pile driving/construction vibrations had no adverse effects to adjacent buildings. Surfside should have stepped in once notified of problem, and assisted Condo Association in legal action to require responsible construction techniques.

Excerpt from Structural Damage from Adjacent Construction Projects – Expert Article from Robson Forensic website, link below:
There are several ways that harmful vibration levels due to construction activities can cause damage to neighboring properties and structures. The most common include; damage to a structure directly from the energy of the vibration source, resonant structure response (i.e. the natural frequency of the building and soil matches the frequency of the ground movement causing uncontrollable shaking) and/or the densification of soils supporting a building structure resulting in settlement. All these vibrational effects can result in cosmetic damage and/or irreparable structural damage.

Vibration can occur from numerous construction activities, including:

Blasting
Pile driving
Compaction / dynamic compaction
Jackhammering / chiseling
Vibrofloatation
Pavement breakers
Demolition
Trenching activities
Heavy vehicle traffic
If construction activities which include potentially damaging vibration are scheduled to occur on a specific job site, it is imperative that one or all of the suggested measures below be implemented:

A well-planned due-diligence investigation and project coordination of neighboring properties. An example would be to determine if a neighboring facility has sensitive electronic, instrumentation or imaging equipment such as an MRI that may be disrupted by construction related vibration activities.
A pre-construction survey of all adjoining structures
A geotechnical report that clearly identifies the underlying soil strata and geologic conditions
Specifications for the control of construction vibrations
Pre-planning to avoid potential vibration damage by selection of alternate construction equipment. For example, auguring/pre-drilling piles as opposed to pile driving.
Construction logs of equipment and approximate time frames of construction
Vibration monitoring by a licensed testing agency
Building movement monitoring of neighboring structures by a licensed testing agency
Prior to construction activity, it can be desirable to establish a benchmark, especially if there is pre-existing damage such as settlement or structural deficiencies to neighboring structures. This particularly holds true if the building is older and would have a tendency for a lower tolerance of vibration induced damage.

Furthermore, forensic studies following a claimed damage event, to determine if a building was damaged by neighboring construction vibrations, should include knowledge of the geological conditions, where the vibration producing activity took place on the construction site, if there were any monitoring devices, and whether there were pre-construction surveys that could be evaluated as a bench mark for pre-existing damage. Therefore, it is imperative to document the location and type of construction activities which occur relative to the potential damage.

https://www.robsonforensic.com/articles/structural...

Roof anchor testing to larger loads than specified actually cause more damage FYI.

Quote (MaudSTL)

I just finished updating the Timeline: CTS Collapse Witness Statements spreadsheet to include Jonah Handler (1002) and Angela and Deven Gonzalez (904,) as it is conceivable that someday they might be able to share details about their experiences. I also reformatted the spreadsheet so that each link is in a unique cell, making the links easier to click, and added a Source column to indicate where the link came from, as some of the links are archived.

Please let me know if I need to make any corrections. And, if you have other sources that provide additional details for a survivor listed in this timeline, please let me know. As an example, I have read that several of you understand that Angela Gonzalez in 904 heard sounds from above, yet I was unable to find an article that says anything other than she heard "a strange noise." If anyone has a link that provides more detail, please provide it. Please note that my objective for this spreadsheet was deliberately focused: the timeline only includes the survivors of the collapsed parts of the building, plus Shamoka Furman, the security guard.

I will continue to monitor news stories that feature the survivors from the part of the building that collapsed, in case we can get any additional clues from their remarks. Until we get new information from the survivors included in this timeline, I don't foresee making any other updates to this particular spreadsheet.

Please correct your spreadsheet, the inspector states they were "replacing" anchors. They were "installing" anchors where none existed before. Key INFO!

Quote (Warrenslo)

They were "installing" anchors where none existed before.

The spreadsheet already says this.

Quote (warrenslo)

I have the leading theory and didn't even read what you copied.

^Lulz

Quote (Santos81)

It’s indexed as 2021_06_23. I believe the flyover was the 22nd as all the other usable imagery from the 23rd is partially obscured by cloud cover.

There isn’t a geospatial metadata file along with it and no date in the exif data to provide the exact time.

23rd had no sargassum cleaning I do recall as well.

I think it's more likely the 21st. We had those showers and cloud cover every afternoon until ~3 except for that Monday which was clear blue skies from 10 to 2, give or take 30 minutes. Roads look dry but some roofs have pooled water.

Does anyone know how many layers of paint there was on the building? I have a theory.......

Quote (JStructsteel (Structural)3 Aug 21 14:32
Does anyone know how many layers of paint there was on the building? I have a theory....... hammerdeadhorse)

I hope it does not come out the ass end of the cow, like some of the narcissistic on this 'dark' forum.......

Quote (2Sym P. le (Mechanical)2 Aug 21 05:21 Quote (MaudSTL (Computer)2 Aug 21 02:31) The forum can be a lonely space. That doesn't mean your contributions aren't valuable.)

Clarification: Comment directed in sync with these two quotes, and not ‘at’.

Aprox. 1/2 layer. The paint didn't stick well, except for where it trapped water against the building. Because you know, water proofing concrete with latex paint is super duper awesome yo.
Dead horse in there somewhere.

oil based paints don't do so well with the alkalai concrete surface... you get a chemical 'soap'. You have to use a proper coating.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

No oil based paint. Acrylic, Vinyl Acrylic, and Acrylic Laytex only on the exterior. The exterior painting was a continuous waterproofing project.
But yes, you have to use a proper coating.

Paint isn't going to stick on the ocean side anyway. It's constantly getting sandblasted. I'd pay some good money for paint that can handle 3 months of being sand blasted without wearing away.

Take Away: Keep it local so that it can be controlled locally.....
Investigations
Miami-Dade County Seeks Forensic Engineer to Probe Champlain Towers South Disaster

Miami-Dade Equitable Distribution Program
For its forensic consultant, Francisco M. Caldera, the capital improvements project analyst in the county's small business division, emailed on July 28 a request for qualifications, called an "equitable distribution program survey," to dozens of firms in the EDP program.

The county's EDP establishes a county pool of qualified local architects, engineers and landscape architects and provides a process to equitably distribute smaller county capital improvements projects, according to the county.

All qualified firms with a local Miami-Dade office may potentially participate in the EDP program, which is “not only a minority and/or small business program. However, the ranking method favors the smaller firms with fewer previous county work opportunities,” says the county.

https://www.enr.com/articles/52176-miami-dade-coun...

Quote (Miami-Dade County Seeks Forensic Engineer to Probe Champlain Towers South Disaster)

...after all the evidence is gone.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

It's not gone, it's in their possession. They're looking to move forward with a criminal probe much faster than the NIST report would allow them to, so they don't want to be sitting around waiting.

Most importantly, they're wanting to find any unsafe modifications that may be done to other buildings that could have led to the collapse. CTS is not the only building with a colorful history such as we've seen, and a lot of the same crews have done a lot of the same work on other buildings. There's huge questions over many buildings.

Please, Let's treat each other with respect. The corruption and politics surrounding Champlain are bad enough...

SF Charlie
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Sea rise under scrutiny in condo collapse: Corrosion likely, but no sign of sinkhole
Even if there is no sea level rise here, the article goes on to say that everything is still under consideration. ...also tidbits about what's been going on under the radar...

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (Miami Harold)

“We’re chasing like 50 different things and trying to understand them one at a time,” said Allyn Kilsheimer, the independent structural engineer that the town of Surfside hired to investigate the collapse.

Yep

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (warrenslo (Structural)3 Aug 21 08:26)

THIS is exactly what I pointed out in Part 1, FYI...

Yes, I recall that, I doubted you then, but after looking at the frame by frame enough times for my wife to start making fun of me, I'm now sure you were right in the first place! Good call!

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

If they want a forensically investigated report with credibility, they need to hire outside the state of Florida. They don't need NIST, with the substantial evidence provided and tools available, to say it could take Years is utter bs. The only thing not done yet, is to access the pilings...everything else is in hand.

Quote (Optical98)

everything else is in hand.

As far as I am aware, there's still a roughly 2 year span of documents missing regarding this building. Permitting applications, plans, inspection reports, code violation reports, etc.

It would be really good to see a higher res version of that video - not even the whole thing (I have no particular wish to watch people on balconies getting crushed) but even just a still of the first couple of frames. I'm still not seeing the same thing with that vertical band and which floor has the 12th floor full width balcony as most of you guys, and that's because it all falls between the pixels.

Though @Santos81 is in the investigation group and has presumably seen the real thing? So I guess you can tell us for sure which floor is which and whether that piece of floor 13 is missing/collapsed at the start?

> The single remaining stairwell dumped out into the pool deck (collapsed) and parking (flooded.) FYI, in most jurisdictions except City of LA (in my experience) this is still allowed.

This is one of the most shocking things for me, how neither of the emergency stairwells had a good safe exit. Yes, the western one did have an exit at ground level, but not really into a safe space; even discounting a collapse, it wouldn't be great if the garage or significant parts of the ground floor were on fire. Emergency exits should take you out onto the street outside the property.

Demented

"there's still a roughly 2 year span of documents missing regarding this building."

They can't wait around on those, they could have been destroyed. Put a team together to interview known contractors and subs that did work there, they should have their own paperwork. Get the accounting records to get a list of vendors ...payables and look into the asset recordings....follow the money.

Meanwhile, get the physical studies started.

That's already being done.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Red Corona (Computer))

This is one of the most shocking things for me, how neither of the emergency stairwells had a good safe exit.

I see no issue with stairs exiting directly to the pool plaza. Having to go through the lobby interior is more dangerous in a fire. In collapses/quakes, the front lobby doors wouldn't have been safe because there'd be a building above you; pool plaza would be the fastest way to get away, and both elevator and stairs exited there separately.

The only way for the eastern staircase to exit out of building is for it to be built at edge of building, which it wasn't 40 years ago.

Below is a close-up of the CTS roof taken on 6/22/21 obtained by zooming in on the aerial photo supplied by Santos81. The brightness has been enhanced to provide greater contrast, but nothing else has been changed.



With the brightness enhanced, by comparing the photo to another photo taken of the same rooftop taken on 1/16/21, one can distinguish that the following things have changed:
1) Several objects have been added to the 88th street side (north side) of the roof by the roofers, including possibly a cache of tarpaper,
2) Two men can be seen bending over the parapet from the 12th floor roof to the penthouse roof on the 88th street side (north side) of the roof. One is on the penthouse roof side of the parapet and one is on a removable ladder on the 12th floor side of the parapet.
3) One of two air conditioning units that were in a row by themselves on the middle part on the south side of the building can be seen to be missing.
4) A bright object that can’t be distinguished is present between the built-in ladder going over the east side parapet wall to the 12th floor roof below and the south side parapet wall over the planter on the patio. This object may be the missing air conditioner awaiting removal either by a crane or by hoisting it over the east parapet wall to where it can be taken through the door on the 12th floor roof to the elevator.
5) A second bright object that can’t be distinguished is present on the 12th floor roof near the base of the stairs going up to the elevator house. This may another air conditioner unit awaiting removal just like the one above.
6) By enhancing the brightness of this photo a second time, one can vaguely see what may be a beam outrigger with counterweights on the penthouse roof going over the south parapet wall over the planter on the patio. With an optional hoist attachment, this outrigger beam can be adapted to lift heavy objects like an air conditioner over the parapet wall, such as over the east side parapet wall to the 12th floor roof below. This is not a verification that such a beam hoist is present. But air conditioners can be removed from the roof only by using a crane or by some kind of roof hoist. So if a crane can be eliminated, a roof hoist can be verified.

It is recommended that readers copy the photo above and paste it into a PowerPoint document, where it can be zoomed in on to help see the objects. To further help readers, I have enclosed a PowerPoint document containing this photo along with ground truth photos from 1/16/21 for comparison. Readers can vary the zoom on the photos in this document to verify how the images were made and improve their ability to discern the objects. A high resolution display will help immensely in such viewing. I have used a 1920x1280 non-interlaced display for such viewing. If one uses a smaller display, like a 640x480 interlaced display, then the photos well likely be blurred beyond recognition. If readers lack a high resolution display, I suggest taking a digital copy of the photo and the PowerPoint document to a Microsoft computer dealer to view them on a good high resolution display.

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=d821c442-5a20-4437-811b-c

Quote (warrenslo (Structural))

Roof anchor testing to larger loads than specified actually cause more damage FYI.

How so? What's the peak transient force coming from a jackhammer removing old roof material that contacts bare concrete? Wouldn't that force transmit down the whole column? It would seem to me that an anchor test would at most place 5000 lbs of lateral load on the roof slab, even if one of the anchors was planted above a column.

Quote (MarkBoB2 (Electrical))

6) By enhancing the brightness of this photo a second time, one can vaguely see what may be a beam outrigger with counterweights on the penthouse roof going over the south parapet wall over the planter on the patio. With an optional hoist attachment, this outrigger beam can be adapted to lift heavy objects like an air conditioner over the parapet wall, such as over the east side parapet wall to the 12th floor roof below. This is not a verification that such a beam hoist is present. But air conditioners can be removed from the roof only by using a crane or by some kind of roof hoist. So if a crane can be eliminated, a roof hoist can be verified.

It may be just an artifact of increasing the brightness, but does the edge of the parapet in the area of the possible beam outrigger look straight? It doesn't to me.

Quote (MarkBoB2)

It is recommended that readers copy the photo above and paste it into a PowerPoint document, where it can be zoomed in on to help see the objects. To further help readers, I have enclosed a PowerPoint document containing this photo along with ground truth photos from 1/16/21 for comparison. Readers can vary the zoom on the photos in this document to verify how the images were made and improve their ability to discern the objects. A high resolution display will help immensely in such viewing. I have used a 1920x1280 non-interlaced display for such viewing. If one uses a smaller display, like a 640x480 interlaced display, then the photos well likely be blurred beyond recognition. If readers lack a high resolution display, I suggest taking a digital copy of the photo and the PowerPoint document to a Microsoft computer dealer to view them on a good high resolution display.

That picture is roughly half a mile wide over 2,500 pixels. That translates to each single pixel representing 1 square foot of reality more or less.

And you’re telling us you can discern people on ladders in it???

That’s bonkers.

This smells more and more like some intricate troll but I can’t say that I can understand it.

From WPLG Local 10 News:
new-aerial-video-shows-surfside-condo-site-empty
bodycam-footage-shows-initial-surfside-condo-collapse-response

SF Charlie
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Honestly... at this point I'm just here for the MarkBob2 (et al) posts.

My own sanity and the memory of William of Ockham be damned, I'm all in! It's like Tobias Fünke himself is now dabbling in forensic engineering, and I think we can all agree that's awesome.

2000's calling to get their high quality 1920x1280 display back. Can't tell if trolls or not at this point either.

Quote (Red Corona (Computer)3 Aug 21 17:54)

It would be really good to see a higher res version of that video ... even just a still of the first couple of frames.

Here is a zip file of the first several frames that show change (no duplicates) if someone would like to sharpen or enhance or process them. Unfortunately recording them from a screen already did some optical processing with may be imposable to undo...

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=52a3c653-d8f1-4ccc-8928-9

[b]

Quote (Santos81 (Specifier/Regulator))

Maxar provided the image; I realize now where it came from and probably shouldn’t have uploaded it

Not to worry, that image was shared with the press. Sat images were made public 1-2 days after the collapse, only I don't know exactly which days they were taken. I suppose only paying customers get to know that...

There are only a handful of 30-50cm imaging satellites, and depending on commercial demands & cloud cover, it's often many days between successive captures of any given area, and several months between exemplary captures that go onto public sites like Google Maps.

Quote (Seppe (Structural)

William of Ockham be damned

You are probably correct. This science article attempts to explain why that is. Science mind you. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/0...

For every complex problem there is a simple answer that is wrong...

The trick i think is in not confusing "elegance" which can turn out to be conformance with preconceptions or skipping a few tedious steps, with true simplicity which is using the least number of "ifs".

Security Guard Shamoka Furman speaks briefly in this new bodycam video. I wonder if the guy who thought it was a plane may be Justin Willis from the ESPN feature.

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/08/03/body...

>>>>>Edit: Nah, not Justin Willis, UConn pitcher from 1106. The guy in the video flashes a badge, wears a wedding ring, and says he’s from Penthouse 12. He’s either a member of the Fialkov family or he’s a renter.

>>>>>Edit: The Miami-Herald version on YouTube is different from the local TV version. It includes an approach to the lobby, and a walk to the collapsed surface parking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSXm0K_63RI

>>>>>Edit: The NBC News version is also a different version. At the end, this one features the first detailed description we’ve heard of what happened to Shamoka Furman during the collapse. President of the Condo Association Jean Wodnicki (308) also appears briefly.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1275869

>>>>>Edit: Radio people are very good at transcription. This piece includes transcriptions of what may have been the master video that the various media cut pieces out of. We now know that Shamoka Furman was the overnight security guard, which explains why residents didn’t know her name or gender. I still want to know who the second shift security guard was, to see if he or she heard the knocking sounds prior to 11 PM.

https://www.connectradio.fm/2021/08/04/newly-relea...

>>>>>Edit: This is a better link for the transcription, which is by ABC Audio.

https://digital.abcaudio.com/news/newly-released-b...

Re image interpretation: at high zoom most software smooths things out for you. Turn all that off and you see the pool is at best 20 pixels wide, a floor of the building is three or four. About 0.5m as per Spartan's calculation. Anything smaller is a blur across one or two pixels and objective identification is physically impossible. When you know something is there (eg the roof anchors, the floors) you can clearly spot them. What is happening here is that a pre-xisting mental model is being recognised in the data. In that case the mental models are based on verifiable facts so no problem occurs. In the absence of a verifiable basis for a mental model, minds do their best and recognise suppositions they find reasonable, some more creatively than others. Reasonable only becomes factual though when some other data supports it.

Quote (AusG (Petroleum))

In the absence of a verifiable basis for a mental model, minds do their best and recognise suppositions they find reasonable

That can't be stressed enough IMO. It even applies to witness observations given in a time of high mental stress. Someone said the first story is usually the right one. I don't even think that is true. I mean we see someone that gives the statement to police on the spot that he heard what sounded like a jet *before* the building collapsed from the perspective of a PH unit. I mean first of all is that really an accurate interpretation of what he said. He heard the roar of a "jet" and still had time to escape the PH?
And btw it is not unknown in the history of military aviation for hot-shot "mavericks" to show off their skills to friends and family. They actually had to be prohibited by law. Case in point: my Dad who was a concrete and block mason, witnesses a large crack form in the (unreinforced) basement slab of our home as the result of a sonic boom from one of these cases. He had witnessed that slab being poured about a year earlier. Two decades later my cousin who was an A-6 pilot decided he would take a jaunt over the same property to impress friends and family. There is nothing more to add but that these things have been known to happen.

"The program, known as NextGen, is part of a nationwide initiative by the Federal Aviation Administration to modernize air traffic control from a ground-based radar system to a GPS satellite system that will concentrate planes into highway-like lanes."

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/m...

"Under the plan, about 65 percent of flight departures from MIA that previously spread out on parallel paths from Miami Beach to Miami Shores would be diverted to a slender corridor that crosses North Bay Village and moves north over Biscayne Park, North Miami Beach, North Miami and Miami Gardens."

^This program took effect April 22, 2021

I can't find a source to look up flight arrivals and departures the morning of the collapse. Military ops as well.

Could this sudden daily flow of air traffic have an effect on these older structures built on the shifting sands of barrier islands?

https://nextgenrelief.org/media/

Quote (Optical98 (Computer))

Could this sudden daily flow of air traffic have an effect on these older structures built on the shifting sands of barrier islands?

Or to a long neglected structure with highly deteriorated (delaminated) slab? Anyway I assume you are ruling out for the moment any close range supersonic excursions and attendant boom? That could only come from a highly thoughtless and arrogant military jockey who would have in fact not filed a flight plan except in his own head. But I don't think they could get away with it that close to a major airport. I guess it depends. Not likely. The only thing I know is that a P&W j52-p8 in test cell at 110% will make your teeth chatter to the point you cannot stop them. And that's not supersonic. Homestead was rebuilt after Andrew right? I'm not saying it is likely, but.....

Edit: minor typos.

New video from just after the collapse, from a policeman's body camera.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9857947/B...

zebraso

LOL no, not ruling out sonic...supersonic etc. I happen to live near a military base in the Carolinas, and have a cracked glass block window to prove it.

And I said including military ops actually.

Quote (Optical98)

built on the shifting sands of barrier islands

This is not an accurate statement and could be misleading to readers. This building was built on a solid foundation that was integral with a number of pilings, not on "shifting sands".

Quote (Optical98 (Computer))

I happen to live near a military base in the Carolinas, and have a cracked glass block window to prove it.

I feel for ya, I had to sleep in a BEQ for a while with Harriers flying over it routinely. Talk about nightmares. They were not supposed to fly over the barracks. But they did anyway. That whistling sound that Harriers make.....egads. And now you know where that base is of course. C.P. Half the initial delivery or Harriers is under the pine flats upside down.

Quote (Jedidad)

I think we have to treat all witness statement times as approximate

MaudSTL has noted which times are approximate, and most people would consult their phones when awakened suddenly or made to evacuate a building in the middle of the night. Most people remember that number precisely for several hours after, as in "It was 1:12 am".

Also, MaudSTL, we do appreciate your data collection and organization efforts regarding the witness statements.

I have been away for about a week because of work and helping a family solve an adoption mystery along the lines of "Long Lost Family". So now I will slip away again.

Quote (Optical98)

Could this sudden daily flow of air traffic have an effect

No. East flow off the north side is 092 to POTTR at 520’, then next turn (depending on the departure assigned) either inside the bay if able to meet the performance requirements or offshore if unable.

Tonight for example off of 8R

Quote (AusG (Petroleum)4 Aug 21 00:55)

This is obviously a picture of my shiny bald head and my big nose ...

SF Charlie
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From the videos, and particularly the third still shot from Daily Mail - Note the orange cone in front of column (I think it's 172?) at the edge of the break by the dark colored car. Not sure it means anything, but interesting placement. Could it have been placed as a warning for damaged or uneven flooring in that area?

Santos81

They show the East Flow as the DEALZ flight path, the top is cut off but -



"Residents are especially troubled by departure routes that converge on a point known as “DEALZ’’ set by the FAA over Keystone Islands in North Miami and Biscayne Park. They say the more concentrated routes are already active.

“It’s like thunder. The planes just come right down over them,” Wilson said, after her staff witnessed the noise at a Keystone Point homeowners’ meeting."

Quote (Zebraso)

It even applies to witness observations given in a time of high mental stress. Someone said the first story is usually the right one. I don't even think that is true.

I agree with you. I posted about this several threads ago. The initial impression while the adrenaline is flowing is more like snapshots…and they are not necessarily in the right order or given accurate relative significance. After the adrenaline stops, these snapshots start to get integrated into a narrative that has some sort of logical flow.

It is very interesting to compare the written description of what happened to Shamoka Furman in her GoFundMe with the verbal in the NBC News version of the body cam video, when she is in trauma.

Per the body cam video, it seems evident that Shamoka rode out the collapse in the lobby, like a captain at the wheel of her sinking ship. She describes calling 911 and handling the switchboard “Get out get out.” She gives a very vivid description of aural experience…she says “boom boom,” thought it was the elevator but no beeps, then “boom boom,” and “the lady ran out and said everything collapsed,” (Sarah Nir?,) called 911, stayed in there to tell everybody get out get out. She describes the pancaking with a trill. She doesn’t even know how she made it out.

She doesn’t mention her rescues in the body cam video, but I have the theory that Shamoka did her rescues immediately, before talking to the cops. This is based on the fact that the body cam videos include someone (the Agueros?) helping their elderly neighbor, and Ileana Monteagudo (611) had to have escaped with Shamoka’s help before them because she was already in the staircase on Floor 4 when the building collapsed. The others who escaped in the east staircase came down after Ms. Monteagudo was already out.

After the rescues, Shamoka goes over, tells the cops who she is, and tells them “They gotta get outta there.”

See what you think.

>>>>>Edit: Note that Shamoka never mentions the thought of pulling a fire alarm. She knows she can’t go knock on everybody’s doors, and she keeps answering the phone and telling individual people to get out. I have to wonder how often she was assigned to this building, since the Nirs all thought she was a man, or if anyone had ever trained her to locate and pull a fire alarm. She definitely felt fully responsible for the people in that building. I have never worked a desk like that, so I have no idea how fire alarms are located for security guards.

Quote (NOLAscience)

…we do appreciate your data collection and organization efforts regarding the witness statements.

Thanks. It’s my pleasure to help the team. I think it’s important for the engineers to work through this as quickly as possible. So many have stated they’ve seen buildings that appear to be in much worse shape than this one was. We need to understand better how to recognize when a building is in trouble. CTS has been a wake-up call.

Quote (MaudSTL (Computer))

I posted about this several threads ago.

I am sorry I did not give you credit. I obviously internalized it and I did recall someone said words to that effect. You said it much more eloquently as well. If I am not mistaken you also mentioned the unreliable testimony often given by eyewitnesses in criminal proceedings. Or maybe I saw that on Perry Mason.

I was thinking when watching those videos, where are the people one the west side balconies? It's kind of quiet compared to what you can hear in the back. Then I realize...they're all stuck in that stairwell, it's a few minutes later that many came back up to their condo balconies to wait for the fire trucks..

I know some did make it down the stairs and out to the beach. But the staircase deteriorated to the point many couldn't get down them.

Quote (Optical98)

They show the East Flow as the DEALZ flight path, the top is cut off but

DEALZ is not a SID, it’s a virtual fix on a RNP AP DP, but it’s dependent on equipment and operator approval (PBN 0.3).

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/community_involvem...

Off the north side, east flow is typically WINLY2 (first example) or HEDLY2 (second example) RNAV SID.

Santos81

This is directly from the Miami Herald, I think the people living below this new route would highly disagree with you.

"Residents are especially troubled by departure routes that converge on a point known as “DEALZ’’ set by the FAA over Keystone Islands in North Miami and Biscayne Park. They say the more concentrated routes are already active.

“It’s like thunder. The planes just come right down over them,” Wilson said, after her staff witnessed the noise at a Keystone Point homeowners’ meeting."

Quote (Updated)

Sure, any number of things all more or less equally likely could have fallen from above and triggered the patio failure:
*space debris
*meteorite
*heavy suicide carcass
*cinderblocks, tar paper, and AC units
*drone missile (or just a large drone… I think I saw one with red paint on it)
*UAV
*malicious wheeling of tar buggy off the top
*Failed group BASE jump attempt from poorly installed roof anchor… well just the test anyway… with a green hoist sling full of those tar rolls
*Tower, this is Ghostrider requesting a fly-by
*(reserved for suggestions)

Spartan5

Be sure n add BEWBs....

@Spartan5

Mine Blasting

Quote (Optical98)

This is directly from the Miami Herald, I think the people living below this new route would highly disagree with you.

Every departure off 9 and arrival on 27 passes over my house at a MUCH lower altitude.

If you truly believe this theory, do us all a favor. Head over to the FlightAware and look at every departure from KMIA from today. In the route data, the first block is the SID.

For every 20 departures, how many were assigned one of these SID’s?

VACAY
BNGOS
GLADZ
TWZTR
AARPS

I won’t be surprised if it’s zero.

You can skip AA flights operated by anything other than B788/9 on short haul and anything long distance.

Spartan

I see many posts worded with "one can clearly see"... and I think I must be blind.

But! One can clearly see:

Quote (MaudSTL (Computer))

The guy in the video flashes a badge, wears a wedding ring, and says he’s from Penthouse 12.

So it makes more sense if he was in 8701 condo penthouse 12 even though he motions with his arm towards CTS. Was this obvious? So the upshot of his statement was he heard a sound like something "fell" - "not a big deal... thought it was something in the apartment". Then he heard what he describes as the sound of a "jet", which of course would be the collapse. Just his impression of the sounds heard from the penthouse next door without seeing what was happening?

Quote (AusG)

You guys failed the test. It was clearly Peppa Pig

Could also have been the ample bosom of Mummy Pig, since we now know without a doubt that tatas were somehow involved. (Peppa is far too young to be sporting curves, so it had to be Mummy. Unless Daddy Pig has moobs, which seems distinctly possible.)

Quote (zebraso)

So it makes more sense if he was in 8701 condo penthouse 12 even though he motions with his arm towards CTS. Was this obvious? So the upshot of his statement was he heard a sound like something "fell" - "not a big deal... thought it was something in the apartment". Then he heard what he describes as the sound of a "jet", which of course would be the collapse. Just his impression of the sounds heard from the penthouse next door without seeing what was happening?

There is only one PH at Eighty Seven Park; that is NOT the owner.

The 12th floor is the Penthouse level at CTS; UPH is the floor above.

Quote (Auri)

How so? What's the peak transient force coming from a jackhammer removing old roof material that contacts bare concrete? Wouldn't that force transmit down the whole column? It would seem to me that an anchor test would at most place 5000 lbs of lateral load on the roof slab, even if one of the anchors was planted above a column.

Hopefully no jackhammering. Forces would be transmitted down though, especially where they actually did decide to go over columns.

30lb or smaller chipping hammer
15lb or smaller around rebar.
I'm still trying to find for certain which tools the roofing crew was using, but it very likely would have been a Dewalt D25103, a Dewalt DW505, or one of them new and approved Dewalt DCH273B's.

2.1-3 Joules, so well within the ballpark for the chipping hammer weight range, including the under 12lbs of the tool itself.


We also don't know how much concrete restoration work was done at this time too, which may be the reasoning why we've seen such large variation in size and location of anchor pads. GPR was supposed to be used so, fingers crossed we have that filed away. Some buffoonery happened on that roof. Yes yes, it more likely did not bring the structure down, but it still could have contributed. Who knows; we may find out that Surfside was stalling the temporary parking so that the condo association could start on the major repair that was needed ASAP all because they didn't want to ugly up the beaches during season. But then again, there could have just been an unpermitted rush to get the scaffolding in place because 3-4 months ago was the time all of the weather walls should have been going up, as they have on all the other condos getting their routine snow-birds are away maintenance.
Remember when we started passing our 3rd graders who didn't know how to read rather than holding them back a year to keep class sizes down and FCAT scores up? Florida is awesome.


@Optical98
I'm with Santos81 on this one. Though I'm under the KPBIA path instead, the planes are never ever low enough near the shores to ever be an issue. One of our permitting buldings is actually smack dab in the middle of two active run-ways, and that thing built by the lowest bidder is still a thumbs up.
Thunder gives us more shakes than planes do.

@Zebraso
Could even be a reference to the whole experience of take-off. Sound, vibrtion, you name it. Wouldn't be too farfetched for survivors to have felt a similar sensation to a passenger jet powering up.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Santos81 (Specifier/Regulator))

The 12th floor is the Penthouse level at CTS; UPH is the floor above.

Ok so he made it off the 12 floor. Not impossible I guess maybe he crawled down the front of the building and is an acrobat. IDK. The UK site that published the body cam footage claimed he was from next door. Maybe they saw more of the footage. Any chance he was a guest there? He claims he thought little of the first noise and then heard the loud roar. Of course he might have only been describing where he was staying and not where he was at that moment, but then he also claims he was there with his family. So where are they? This guy was not on the radar before as far as statements as a witness. There is nothing at the blue green termed penthouse I presume. My head hurts now.

Quote (Demented)

Hopefully no jackhammering. Forces would be transmitted down though, especially where they actually did decide to go over columns.

The late Elaine Sabino (1210) was worried about the vibrations caused by the roof work.

“But one resident of a top-floor penthouse warned relatives — before she went missing — that the construction on the roof had caused her unit to vibrate.

“She’d been complaining for the past couple of weeks about the construction on the roof,” Douglas Berdeaux said about his wife’s sister, Elaine Sabino. “She said she was worried that the ceiling was going to collapse on top of her bed.””

WaPo https://archive.ph/fUIpw

Quote (Zebraso)

My head hurts now.

It’s “need to know” vs. “nice to know.” I avoid headaches by focusing solely on collapse witness statements that help us refine the timeline of pre-collapse events. We already have a credible basic timeline of pre-collapse events, so what’s of interest in new collapse witness videos or interviews are new details that may help us better understand what was perceived to be happening in the building leading up to the collapse, and where in the building it was perceived.

The PH12 guy says he heard and felt the actual collapses…a small crash and then a big crash. That information doesn’t add to our understanding of what caused the building to collapse. No matter how he got out or where his family is, what he said is just a “nice to know” unless he can give us new “need to know” pre-collapse details from PH12.

In contrast, Shamoka Furman was in the lobby before, during, and after the collapse and, slightly later, in the post-collapse garage before it was seriously flooded. So what she has to say in these videos, confusing though it was because she was in a state of trauma, is worth analyzing for new details.

>>>>>Edit: This is a better link to the bodycam video transcription by ABC Audio. https://digital.abcaudio.com/news/newly-released-b...

Quote (MaudSTL (Computer))

“She said she was worried that the ceiling was going to collapse on top of her bed.”

Jesus H Christ.

Quote (MaudSTL (Computer))

unless he can give us new “need to know” pre-collapse details from PH12.

And if he was from "PH12" managed to hear the pre collapse and collapse sounds and navigated the building all the way down he may have some need to know details but he unfortunately did not hang around or feel like talking afterward publicly. He was on the street by what 1:30 at least? Since he flashed a badge I might assume he was interviewed by police. So it's a fact then that he was not identified publicly and made no other public statements? If he was in fact from a neighboring building then his value as a witness is probably less but not zero...depending. Having more witnesses is not generally a bad thing especially if one is potentially a police officer trained in making observations. IMO. More data = better conclusions?

@MaudSTL, there were a fee more residents, one which I know survived, that mentioned the same thing. I'll try and dig that name out later once I get home. It's burries in emails.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Santos81 (Specifier/Regulator))

There is only one PH at Eighty Seven Park; that is NOT the owner.

The 12th floor is the Penthouse level at CTS; UPH is the floor above.

I suspect he was from the East or North building... I know the North building had a PH-12, and I would assume the East building did... and he was stretching the definition of "next door" in the heat of the moment.

He didn't seem like a man who had just escaped with his family and lost all his stuff.

BKNJ

Quote (Optical98)

... planes ....

I didn't see that coming. This thread has turned into a real clown show. I thought there was going to be a reboot of this stream of consciousness nonsense, but some people just can't help themselves. What next? Termites? I'm beginning to wonder if everyone here are actually engineers.

Wasn't the entire 12th floor referred to as penthouse-level, the 13th was the super-duper extra-special PH-A or other fancy designator? I've seen the 12th floor units labeled both like the regular units (ex. 1208) and like a penthouse unit (PH-8). It's feasible this guy was on the 12th floor of the uncollapsed portion of the building.

Not sure if this has been posted here or not, but the New York Times has a very elegantly assembled series of diagrams as an exploded axonometric laying out each floor, and listing the occupants and their status. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/30/us/... (or https://archive.ph/pDSGl )

Daily Mail did one was well, looks like hot garbage compared to the NYT version, also don't think it includes the final three victims. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9808235/W...

Either one is helpful as far as figuring out who was where and when, at least for the failure area of the structure.

TheGreenLama

"Real clown show" Gaslighting at it's best.

9-11 involved "planes", take a seat.

Several survivors mention "sounds like a jet", and this last guy from PH12 says they fly over often.
I'm not suggesting one flew into the building, but there are many articles regarding the new/changed flight paths that began on April 22, 2021.

We've discussed the vibrations of Jackhammers on the roof, piledriving from 87th Terrace, and indepth tide studies. A building in such deteriorated condition didn't need that much of a push. Every additional factor of "verifiable and sourced information" is worth consideration and evaluation.

Attacks on reason and language could be considered anti-intellectual bluster.

Here's a list of Owners of the PHs

PHA PACIFIC COAST INVEST INC - 8777 COLLINS AVE PH-2 (ALEXANDRE M. SANTOS)?
PH1 MAGGIE A MANRARA TRS - 511 SEVILLA AVE CORAL GABLES, FL 33134
PH2 ALEXANDRE M. SANTOS
PH3 SIMON SEGAL Deceased
PH4 JACQUELINE DECKER

PH10 RICHARD AUGUSTINE TRS
PH11 JOSEPH BLASSER - 1541 BRICKELL AVE #3502 MIAMI, FL 33129
PH12 THEDA AND JOSEPH FIALKOV - 3845 BATHURST ST STE 202 TORONTO ONTARIO M3H 3N2, CANADA 

PH5 MAYRA CRUZ
PH6 JORGE A HERNANDEZ-BUSTAMANTE
PH7 STELLA KONIECPOLSKI
PH8 STELLA KONIECPOLSKI
PH9 ZYR LLC - Miami po bx

I had shown PH12 as likely Rented/Leased/Airbnb and Empty (no one listed as missing or a victim).

When he says penthouse 12, I think he may just mean the 12th floor penthouse, as opposed to a specific unit.

In the confusion when he says PH12, he may be saying PH 12th floor, rather than unit 12 (which was in the collapse zone). It's possible he was in one of the 5 surviving units on 12, and got out via the stairs and collapsed garage.

Debirlfan and Murph 9000

That's why I listed all of the PH Owners.

Quote (Optical98)

…planes…

There was a reason why I suggested you take the time to see what SIDs are actually in use and the number of departures that flew one of these:

VACAY
BNGOS
GLADZ
TWZTR
AARPS

That number is ZERO.

Those new Departure Procedures will not become available until the 22nd of this month at the earliest.

Quote (Optical98 )

but there are many articles regarding the new/changed flight paths that began on April 22, 2021.

Which makes this a completely false statement.

What began on April 22 was training in order to implement them at a later date.

Quote (TheGreenLama (Structural)4 Aug 21 16:03)

I didn't see that coming.

Thank you for your request for plausibility in our discussions. The activities of Miami-Dade have made credible evidence hard to come by, and (I guess) some of us have become a bit too cynical as a result.

SF Charlie
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Quote (MaudSTL)

“She said she was worried that the ceiling was going to collapse on top of her bed.””

Anyone who has ever hammer-drilled anywhere in a building has received this complaint. It means nothing.

Quote (SFCharlie)

The activities of Miami-Dade have made credible evidence hard to come by, and (I guess) some of us have become a bit too cynical as a result.

What activities and (lack of) credible evidence are you referring to?

Quote (Optical98 (Computer)4 Aug 21 17:36)

We've discussed the vibrations of Jackhammers on the roof, piledriving from 87th Terrace,

I suggest that you compare the over pressure of a sonic boom with the pressure applied by a jack hammer to the building that collapsed, or the pressure of a pile driver. Please compare the sound levels allow for aircraft on landing and takeoff with the sound levels of jackhammers and pile drivers. Critical thinking on your part may prevent scoffing on our part. Sonic booms knock out windows, I have not herd of any surrounding building losing windows.

SF Charlie
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Quote (Santos81 (Specifier/Regulator)4 Aug 21 19:45)

What activities and (lack of) credible evidence are you referring to?

Miami-Dade have prevented independent drone overflights, limited access to adjacent building. limited press access to a brief visit to the street (demoed) side of the building. They have released mostly close ups of people working on the pile rather than showing us damage to the structure. They have prevented a recognized structural analyst access to the site or the debris pile.
This could be respect for the families of victims whose remain are still in the pile.
This could be that as a party to the NIST investigation, they agreed not to release information.
But preventing the public for seeing what's going on, seem above and beyond...

SF Charlie
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Surfside land remains crime scene, but will soon (3 weeks) be in possession of court

SF Charlie
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Quote (SFCharlie)

But preventing the public for seeing what's going on, seem above and beyond...

So you are 100% certain that there hasn't been selective access allowed for certain relevant parties on a need-driven basis?

What would be the justification/precedent for some random entity with a drone to be given permission to tool around above the site (which presumably is still privately owned), "just because"?

And on a broader scale, what exactly does Miami-Dade owe Joe Public when it comes to photographs of damage to the structure? Since when is the burden on a municipality to compile and present all of this information out there for everyone and their brother to see, when we know it is an event that is clearly still under investigation?

In the absence of a public records request, the State/County isn't going to be compelled to share volumes and volumes of information. And even then, does every scrap and strand of information related to the collapse fall under the domain of public record? Likely not.

Maybe I've misunderstood your argument. If I have, I apologize.

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

compare the over pressure of a sonic boom with the pressure applied by a jack hammer

The Air Force has been subject to liability claims of property damage from sonic booms since the 1960's. One paper from the Journal of Air Law and Commerce on torts and liability concerning sonic booms from 1970 states:
That sonic boom is capable of causing property damage is a proposition that cannot be doubted. The claimant seeking relief under the FTCA, assuming that the burden of proof with respect to the discretionary exception function has been sustained or waived, is still faced with the evidentiary difficulty of establishing the necessary elements of his case.

Also from the same article:
However, in a 1964 case, the court held that the United States
could not be held negligent for the mere creation of a sonic boom. A
failure to prove "negligence or wrongful act" on the part of the government would prohibit the application of the doctrine of "res ipsa loquitur."

From what it sounds like all the cases were about relatively minor damage, but structural damage is not ruled out as a possibility. Apparently there was a case of structural damage a control tower which was the repeated focus of energy. From what I read of that it involved sheet steel. The EPA did a study on the Effects of Sonic Boom and Similar Impulsive Noise on Structures as long ago as 1971, but I could not find the actual text of it.

Guys, passenger aircraft flying out of MIA do not and can not go supersonic, and make a sonic boom. If they could get to mach 1 or beyond, they start to break apart.

This airliner stuff is silly.

If an airliner hit the building, the would be aircraft chunks all over the wreckage.

If military aircraft left a sonic boom (and many can), thousands of folks would have heard (felt) it and 911 would have been going nutz. Military pilots are not allowed to go supersonic except in training areas, over the sea, actual war, etc. Military takes this seriously and if a hot-dogging pilot breaks the rules, he's out of a job. (this from Pops, ex-fighter pilot)

Geez. Completely in the weeds.

Quote (MechinNC (Mechanical))

This airliner stuff is silly

Yes. Airliners do not reach anywhere near Mach 1. F-16 and F-15 are still at Homestead though - think. I see the question being posed as the remotest of possibilities, if for no other reason than no one heard a sonic boom per se. What we have is people hearing booms and claiming aircraft noise. So down the rabbit hole we go.

"if a hot-dogging pilot breaks the rules, he's out of a job."

Keep a good thought. Didn't prevent the 1998 Cavalese cable car disaster. Pilot and co-pilot were acquitted but they were found guilty of destroying evidence and obstruction of justice.

If there were any thunderous booms, it was probably thunder. Especially in the rainy season.

Yeah. It's fair to say that the idea of a sonic boom as any causality is moot. It's ridiculous on the face of it. It would have been more widely heard and felt. And the ability to damage a normal structure on this level is an impossibility anyway. Who brought this up?

I'm more curious how it went from sounds like plane to sonic booms in under 24h. Seems there's a lot of laziness by certain parties to even properly copy quoted text from people and the shit just flings from there. *shrugs*

Anyway, shit, unless a JT9 was actually strapped on a test stand to the deck, passenger planes are so high by this point a slammed door will make the place rattle more.

Did anyone look at that newly released body cam footage and see if there's anything interesting? I guess most of the time is spent in (structurally) uninteresting areas, kind of by definition the interesting areas were inaccessible because they were under the collapse.

The post in question

Quote (MechinNC)

This airliner stuff is silly.

It’s not just silly, it’s absurd.

Special for you Optical98 with geographic label’s and all.

This is a great example of the current WINCO2 SID amended with PBN1 approval. No De-Rate T/O thrust, max climb rate, quickly cleaned up and accel to 250kts/no-delay. The turn from SENOY to SIMBA rolls out perfectly abeam CTS at 5000ft.

https://youtu.be/5b1HfFgKL1A

This is the last I’ll comment on such nonsense.

Ok, no supersonic booms here, but back in the 1960's this baby would shake the ground for miles during static firings. It would break glass windows 20 miles away.... Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rP6k18DVdg

Here's your study SF Charlie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4vM75rSPJs

Santos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO2pzmFW8DI

"silly and absurd"

MIAMI, FLORIDA
"On December 14th, the municipalities/cities of North Miami, Indian Creek, Surfside, Bay Harbor Islands, North Bay Village, Biscayne Point, and North Miami Beach simultaneously filed suit, via Petitions for Review, against the FAA and their ill-conceived MetroPlex Program over Miami Dade. The Petitions/Suits cited major issues with both the FAA's process, route strategy, environmental assessment, communication with the public (or lack there of), among other major flaws."

Take up your issues with these cities and townships, and stop harassing me.

Quote (All About Money)

back in the 1960's this baby would shake the ground for miles during static firings. It would break glass windows 30 miles away.

But no buildings fell down.

Optical, I've lived in that flight path. I now live in a different one, but damn near the same pattern and altitudes. Santos said he still lives on that Miami path and if it really was that bad, I'm pretty sure he'd tell us. Out here on the shore, you can barely even hear the jets at times, the wind and waves often louder. The business class jets fly lower, and sure, some small single engines fly 500-750ft away some times too, but planes aren't an issue here. More inland directly next to the airports, yeah, it gets loud and shaky there.

I've spooled up a T50 in a residential house before. Loud as all hell but meh. A nitrous fed 505ci dumping the bangs out of a 3.5" pipe on each side, now that shook some shit around.

Edit: But then again, deaf machinist says what?

Quote (Seppe (Structural)4 Aug 21 21:12)

So you are 100% certain that there hasn't been selective access allowed for certain relevant parties on a need-driven basis?

I'm very certain that NIST has had access as I posted in a link above.
I'm also certain that the town of surfside has not had access nor the press.
Miami-Dade made no such attempt to limit access to the FIU bridge site.

Quote (Seppe (Structural)4 Aug 21 21:12)

Since when is the burden on a municipality to compile and present all of this information out there for everyone and their brother to see, when we know it is an event that is clearly still under investigation?

IMnvHO It is not that Miami-Dade should "compile and present", but what is their justification to prevent the Town of Surfside, the lawyers for the bereaved, the press, from photographing the aftermath? In a normal crime, yes, you want to be able to use the fact that a suspect knew something that had not been made public, but how could that apply here?

The site has been cleaned of remains. As far as I can tell, nothing is happening, why do they need to keep t a crime scene for 3 more weeks?

Of course, they may need to file fill the foundation with water or soil to keep it from collapsing, but that's a safety issue, not a criminal one.

SF Charlie
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Quote (Optical98 (Computer)4 Aug 21 23:34)

Here's your study SF Charlie

You're using comedians as sources?

SF Charlie
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SF Charlie

"You're using comedians as sources?"




What is your source, eh?

Quote (Optical98)

What is your source, eh?

https://youtu.be/fSVJFyA0BKY

judge-says-preserving-evidence-critical-to-getting-to-bottom-of-surfside-collapse

"Judge Michael Hanzman said at a hearing that evidence will be available to determine the cause of the June 24 oceanfront condo collapse, as well as for lawsuits filed in the aftermath."

Quote (Santos81 (Specifier/Regulator)5 Aug 21 00:43)

Levity is Also a Perversion

Nice!

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Noise data measured by myself with a calibrated Type 1 system out in Wynwood back in May between May 12 and May 21. Wynwood is directly under the flame of MIA and is much closer to MIA than Surfside.



The data was measured both in dBA and dBC averaged over 1-second intervals, so it's a little softened compared to the LAeq_max and LCeq_max. I excluded the max levels from this chart because they are a little disingenuous because usually it's somebody slamming a trunk near the microphone station more than it is broad environmental noise. Max levels didn't exceed 100dBC except once or twice in an 8-day window, and listening to the recorded audio files at those times, it was construction noise of a contractor shooting a nail gun in proximity to the microphone -- not MIA traffic.

About a month earlier I had this measurement system also set up next to the Paramount Miami Worldcenter tower. Lot of MIA noise there, but it generally was in the 80-90dBC range. Obnoxious if it's coming through your window at 3am in the morning, but it's not going to shatter your window or bring your building down. The peak MIA noise was was basically equivalent with the peak waste management truck showing up to empty dumpsters.

Think you've got to find another tree to dig up if you think MIA noise had any tangible impact on the Champlain Towers structure.

Quote (SFCharlie)

IMnvHO It is not that Miami-Dade should "compile and present", but what is their justification to prevent the Town of Surfside, the lawyers for the bereaved, the press, from photographing the aftermath? In a normal crime, yes, you want to be able to use the fact that a suspect knew something that had not been made public, but how could that apply here?

The site has been cleaned of remains. As far as I can tell, nothing is happening, why do they need to keep t a crime scene for 3 more weeks?

Of course, they may need to file fill the foundation with water or soil to keep it from collapsing, but that's a safety issue, not a criminal one.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Surfside are the only ones being kept out, and they're trying to also keep everyone else out.
Some media is being kept out, but for good reason. Did you guys see the crew who broadcast a body being recovered live on youtube while talking shit with an open mic from a rented vila in view?


This is owned by the Mayor of Surfside. He's freaking out for a reason, and it's not because he cares about Surfside.
http://www.burkettcompanies.com/


The surfside building department is under some heavy scrutiny for many many reasons. With all we've seen so far between files missing, no organization, a whole slew of not caring by officials, the above by the Mayor; even if they hired the best engineer in the world, I don't think we can trust the Town of Surfside here.

Quote (Demented (Industrial)5 Aug 21 10:41)

Thank you for your thoughtful reply! I give it a star. I'll shut my thoughtless mouth...

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Not thoughtless at all. It's not a normal situation by any means.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Because Surfside)

Surfside Mayor Burkett says Champlain Towers South collapse was inexplicable like an earthquake

"This is one of those things in life that is inexplicable like an earthquake,
like lightning striking,
like uh like a spontaneous huge forest fire that destroys hundreds of homes you know,
nobody knows about,
and you know we were unlucky enough to be the little town where that happened."

Earthquakes are planned for and built for. Lightning strikes are planned for and lightning rod installed. Forest fires are planned for, space is cleared around buildings, fire department are established, and tanker planes are built.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (Demented (Industrial)5 Aug 21 10:41)

http://www.burkettcompanies.com/

Thanks for the link.

I know Miami doesn't have earthquakes, but this scares the stuff out of me...

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (DroppedBits (Electrical))

data was measured both in dBA and dBC

It may be irrelevant, but aside from the weighting, what do you think you are measuring in the subsonic range of frequency that would coincide with the resonance of a large structure? Are you plotting anything in that range?

Quote (zebraso)

It may be irrelevant, but aside from the weighting, what do you think you are measuring in the subsonic range of frequency that would coincide with the resonance of a large structure? Are you plotting anything in that range?

This particular measurement system is accurate to within +/- 1dB down to 5Hz. I didn't have spectral logging enabled on this measurement so I can't break down by individual third octave frequency bands, but in terms of the weightings, if there were significant low-frequencies that may contribute to a structural vibration, I would still expect it to present as a peak within the dBC with less prominence in the dBA measurement. Below is an example of aircraft coming or going from MIA.

Red: LCeq_dt
Blue: LAeq_dt
Pink: LCeq_dt minus LAeq_dt

You can see where my cursor is that the aircraft registers in both dBA and dBc, but that as the flight passes over, it is more prominently in the dBC which is where you see the pink line start to trace up. At 65 dBC though, it is still not going to topple a building.



Now I do have an audio recording of this so if I really wanted to be nerdy, I could drop that into a spectrum analyzer but there's not much point and I have other work I need to get out the door tonight.

I will note that structural vibration is a specialty in its own right and not one I can speak to with much confidence, but if there was prominent noise from aircraft in the low frequencies that may subject a building to significant vibration, it would still show up in these SPL measurements. Some of these flyovers may be enough to rattle some windows, but you're not going to rattle an entire building and certainly not generate any resonance that's going to have more impact on the structure than you'd get from an average day of gusty wind.

Quote (DroppedBits (Electrical))

Now I do have an audio recording of this

Nah, that's ok. Thanks. I think you got it covered. I just did not know the low cut-off of the system. Completeness and all that. No other filters were applied. As far as gusty wind goes. Some seem to think it was a quasi spontaneous event anyway and so all this talk about triggers might not matter. 400 pounder doing jumping jacks. Well that's not happening anyway.

Quote (SFCharlie)

"This is one of those things in life that is inexplicable like an earthquake,
like lightning striking,
like uh like a spontaneous huge forest fire that destroys hundreds of homes you know,
nobody knows about,
and you know we were unlucky enough to be the little town where that happened."

Earthquakes are planned for and built for. Lightning strikes are planned for and lightning rod installed. Forest fires are planned for, space is cleared around buildings, fire department are established, and tanker planes are built.

Full segment. Not that there's anything really interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYqaCg4ZbEQ

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Demented (Industrial))

Full segment.

Well what's notable is the thought process that leads to a statement like that doesn't conjure up anything that sounds like accountability is in anyones' interest.

@MaudSTL
https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/08/04/surf...

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

The following are the longest body cam videos I've found, around 18 minutes each.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-yYnuZAPno&t=...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8J5YzFreys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BSHmIQQioQ

I expect that the resonant frequencies of RC buildings vary on the design and the firmness of the connections but FWIW this one, a 1980s RC construction in Beijing, China (could Florida be worse?) had a significant resonant frequency between 2 & 3 Hz as seen by the sound of subway trains being filtered in successive floors.
.
These frequencies are within the "G" weighting of industrial sound measurement, which DroppedBits' instrument may not be set up for. Again FWIW the researchers noted what they called effective damping of these frequencies by the structure with time.


Given the pervasive nature of ambient infrasound from wind and from road traffic, etc, and above all the tiny amount of actual energy being imparted, I am 100% in the fuggedaboutit camp vis a vis aircraft noise. All this submitted for general interest only.

Chinese building reference
https://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/article/14_07-00...
general info on infrasound measurement within a doc on wind turbines
https://wind.appstate.edu/sites/wind.appstate.edu/...

Quote (AusG (Petroleum))

resonant frequency between 2 & 3 Hz

So would it be fair to say you would have to move the earth before you could excite any modes in a normal structure? I have to keep saying normal though. I mean that's what you would have to expect. And it's why the immediate reaction is "that's preposterous".

Quote (Demented)

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/08/04/surf...

Thank you! I was so pleased to see this. I have been going through the long bodycam videos and plan to update the Timeline this weekend, now that we have a better idea of what Shamoka Furman experienced. In one of the long videos, she states strongly that there were three collapses…just as Gabe Nir did. The big difference to me is that she perceives the first collapse as something with the elevator, which would make sense since her desk was so close to it and the sound would have traveled easily through the elevator shaft. Unlike the Nirs, she does not mention thinking that the sound came from above.

I have also watched and logged all the bodycam appearances by the Penthouse 12 Blue Shirt with Badge Guy. One thing I noticed about him is that he mentions his wife and kids to both the cops and Fire. However, I can’t understand what he says about them. I also noticed that he seems more comfortable talking to Fire, which makes me wonder if he’s a firefighter. Unlike Shamoka, who is disheveled and covered in dust, Penthouse 12 Blue Shirt with Badge Guy is tidy and clean. But he does at one point make a statement about looking down and seeing the collapse, which could put him in 1208 or 1209 if he’s from CTS instead of some other building. As BKNJ said, he is likely to be from some other building. I don’t think we have enough info about him to place him, plus he only tells us about hearing the deck and the building collapse, so no new info of value to our inquiries.

Quote (Zebrasko)

The audio coupling between soil and foundations is going to be greater than that between air and walls but I don't have any quantitative info.

Quote (AusG (Petroleum))

I guess it's a mechanical pressure wave or impulse at VLF and not audio. But the same principal would apply. No earth is being moved. I doubt that can even be produced at the frequencies in question by aircraft. However in the weeds in terms of multifactorial cause for that deteriorated deck to let go. A different question, different frequencies. It's far out there I know. But in terms of multifactorial and how many factors? At that point does it matter? If you're the mayor, it doesn't, apparently.

FWIW I interpret Penthouse 12 as the 12th floor, distinguished from the 13th floor penthouse. He doesn't give a unit number as it was not of foremost importance to him in his stream of conscience, and certainly doesn't disqualify his statement.

And furthermore, using a literal interpretation of these statements, which are desperate attempts by these witnesses to describe events to which none of them would have anything close to lived experience, is pathetic. If it sounded like an airplane crash, the key word is "like" as in what they could only imagine it being similar to.
.

Quote (Zebrasko)

Audio of course is still a mechanical pressure wave, but functionally speaking the distinction is meaningful. The difference is one of scale and hence of the potential at high magnitudes for inelastic deformation somewhere in the system. A vibration in the soil, by virtue of its greater mass and hence momentum can impart a greater vibration to the building that air could not - excluding bomb blasts and the like of course. It comes down to availability of energy and the efficiency of transfer. There is not enough energy being imparted to blow the mayor's toupée off.

Quote (AusG (Petroleum))

There is not enough energy being imparted to blow the mayor's toupée off.

Good information. You must have seen the same episode of Monk that I did. I did know that sound travels faster in water than air. But I don't think I thought of it much in terms of soil before. I assume the efficiency is inverse as frequency. I am all too aware of the guy down the block with the oversized subwoofer. And I don't wear a toupée.

For some reason I am reminded of the worker doing blasting in the street in front of my house to lay expanded sewer lines to a new development. They were monitoring the boundaries of housing to recorder shock levels (for liability). So I asked the worker (who could not shake my hand because of nitroglycerine), if the inverse-square law applied to blasting. After I explained what that meant, he indicated it did not and so it did not matter if he did not place the sensor at the closest point. I am skeptical. He had kind of a lame excuse for not doing it that way. Not that this has anything to do with anything. But how does the inverse square law not apply?

Edit: Incidentally in the above case the blast did knock the stucco off the basement wall in the house where I thought the probe *should* have been placed. I don't think the owner bothered to seek restitution *rolls eyes*.

Quote (Zebrasko)

Acoustic (the word I should have used in place of audio) velocity is positively related to density hence in water much faster than air, 1500 m/s. In soil it is complex in detail but in a gross sense is related to both density and strength, especially the shear wave. There is a useful correlation between shear velocity and a penetrometer test. If you think of it as a being transmitted by a million little springs, harder springs will zing the sound along faster than spongy ones. For e.g. too the NIST folks are using a sonic tool to investigate the strength of the CTS concrete. Frequency: Like light in the atmosphere there is a window of transmission. Earth materials attenuate sound rapidly beyond ~120 hz, but in the range 4 to ~120 hz it is used for petroleum exploration to great depths.

Quote (253RWD (Aerospace))

I agree with Zebraso and would caution

I am also guilty as hell. I can't even follow my own advice. It's not scientific at all. It's the opposite. I think it's the emotion of the whole ungodly thing. Listening to people that went through this....

Quote (AusG (Petroleum))

4 to ~120 hz it is used for petroleum exploration to great depths.

Ah yes. You were talking about image interpretation about 8 threads ago. Above 120 hz I would guess it's falls off > 12 dB/oct. So basically we are not talking much or at all about "sounds" or what would be referred to as "audible" noise in the sense of monitoring for OSHA (as an example) hearing safety limits. And I know hearing goes down to 20 hz. But in terms of perceived noise levels in the environment it does not contribute much typically. For example the real issue for hearing protection on GTC around jets is above 20 Khz which can't even be heard. So it's not about how these energy sources are perceived. I mean that's why these guys go deaf. It's not that "loud". They learn the hard way to put the ears on, too late.

Quote (MaudSTL)

Thank you! I was so pleased to see this. I have been going through the long bodycam videos and plan to update the Timeline this weekend, now that we have a better idea of what Shamoka Furman experienced. In one of the long videos, she states strongly that there were three collapses…just as Gabe Nir did. The big difference to me is that she perceives the first collapse as something with the elevator, which would make sense since her desk was so close to it and the sound would have traveled easily through the elevator shaft. Unlike the Nirs, she does not mention thinking that the sound came from above.

I have also watched and logged all the bodycam appearances by the Penthouse 12 Blue Shirt with Badge Guy. One thing I noticed about him is that he mentions his wife and kids to both the cops and Fire. However, I can’t understand what he says about them. I also noticed that he seems more comfortable talking to Fire, which makes me wonder if he’s a firefighter. Unlike Shamoka, who is disheveled and covered in dust, Penthouse 12 Blue Shirt with Badge Guy is tidy and clean. But he does at one point make a statement about looking down and seeing the collapse, which could put him in 1208 or 1209 if he’s from CTS instead of some other building. As BKNJ said, he is likely to be from some other building. I don’t think we have enough info about him to place him, plus he only tells us about hearing the deck and the building collapse, so no new info of value to our inquiries.

I'm 99% certain on this.
"I'm a city event foreman" - Blue shirt man with a badge
Regular badged civilian.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Debirlfan (Mechanical))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BSHmIQQioQ

Note that at 5:40 Argentine actor Nico Vazquez asks police for help, reputedly for his injured wife (I don't understand enough Spanish to be sure), at 88th and Harding but the officer rebuffs him as he doesn't speak Spanish.

BTW, I realize 911 was called before the main collapse, but I'm amazed how many police and fire were there within about two minutes of the collapse.

BKNJ

He seems to say his woman is burned, "quemada".
"Herida" is wounded or injured, but that doesn't sound anything like that.

Perhaps we can call this sort of an executive summary of the potential list of rabbit holes that need to be pursued with factual data verification where possible, now that all evidence is in the form of the most complex puzzle you can imagine.

So are we now peeling back the layers of that ‘Onion Razor’ such that we can see there are many plausible contributing ‘stacking’ factors to the sudden collapse of CTS?

I am sure I will miss some of the many factors identified so far, and mis-quote some too, but here is a shotgun quick attempt for consideration. So don’t shoot the messenger…..

1 Subsidence of perhaps piles or columns/foundations, along with increased content of water around garage slab and tub walls?

2 Or perhaps a leaky Surfside Storm and Sewer System/CTS tie-in back flowing around CTS when tides are high?

3 Perhaps the collapsed portion of the CTS RC buildings was designed and constructed on the on the thinnest of margins, which means it was flexing more from wind, vibrations, and asymmetric additional loading of a less than a best practices RC structure? What was the natural frequency of structure and it was surely changing over time as it was flexed, stressed and loaded with new loads.

4 Perhaps pile-driving, roof loading, roof vibrations, roof damage and repairs, poor quality concrete repairs, lack of timely and true root cause structural and water proofing repairs, lack of structural supporting of lower floors during repairs, asymmetric loading of adjacent deflected two way slabs with week slab to column connections, recent rain loading,. I would argue garage ceiling band-aid crack filing actually made things worse rather than better, as rain water had to now find another path thru the garage ceiling, thus crack some more concrete to seek lowest point due to gravity.

5. Starting on the Roof when it was known that pool deck was ticking time bomb, because working at ground level parking deck created a logistics challenge.

6 All of the factors continuing to weaken and loosen up the RC structure?

7 Demolition of CMU non-load bearing walls in some units that perhaps had been providing lateral support to the insufficient lateral bracing flat plate slab and column connections or perhaps was additional lateral bracing the designer was counting on to prevent racking of structure? So not truly non-load bearing from a lateral support function.

8 Navy 3.9 after shock could have contributed a little to a very weak structure.

9 Which might lead one to say Roof work was final insult?

10 Palm Tree loading of concrete structural slab, with roots growing into cracks of concrete deck, and continuing to cause the crack to grow wider, and of course they how were they removed? Roots will chase water sources, but in a sewer pipe that tend to grow in length and fill the volume of the pipe, not necessarily cracking the pipe or at least in my soil which provides lateral support of outside of pipe.

11 Low spots in pictures of patio deck indicate perhaps uneven settling or corrosion of some of the concrete columns supporting deck, other wise deck should be perfectly flat as built?

12 One question is why would it take 40 years to delaminate the patio deck slab sufficiently to cause collapse? It would seem the standing water under tile and sand would never really dry out, except perhaps during a long dry spell?

13 Perhaps this exercise is a waste of time, but it seems compiling a list of really plausible contribution factors and perhaps ranking them or trying to quantify them is similar to what Maud is compiling with her witness statements data base.

Now I am not Volunteering to be the book or gate keeper, so if someone else wants to do that great. I am more of a one and done guy, with perhaps some edits as the memory ‘pixels’ wake up….then I move on to my next interest…..Currently it is my long honey do list…. BTW, I did not re-read this post, so forgive the typo's...

You missed the big ones... negligence on the part of the Engineer, Condo Association and the Municipality.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

You forgot architect and general contractor. And perhaps some specialty contractors.


spsalso

Perhaps add in the owners over time, avoiding doing big, un-sexy repairs, thus kicking the can further down the road. (Not victim-blaming, it's an inherent issue with condo ownership...why pay to fix something now if someone else can do it later, when you've sold and it's not your problem anymore?)

All About Money,

Nice list, it would be helpful to see these items across a timeline, with some factors showing as a "constant or static" chronic condition, along with the dated possible contributions leading up to the date of collapse.

BKNJ,

Nico Vázquez's girlfriend Gimena Accardi, supposedly ran into a palm tree during their escape... in pics she has a black eye, more consistent with how people look when getting hit in the face with an airbag.

Demented,

The man in question with a badge, it looked to me like the center of the badge was red, I'd say firefighter.

Quote (arbitraria)

Perhaps add in the owners over time, avoiding doing big, un-sexy repairs, thus kicking the can further down the road. (Not victim-blaming, it's an inherent issue with condo ownership...why pay to fix something now if someone else can do it later, when you've sold and it's not your problem anymore?)

I suppose you mean the unit owners, as opposed to the condo association.

Neither can be expected to be familiar with construction. And neither had any knowledge that the building could have been built in a shoddy manner (other than viewing the aftereffects).

I just don't see how they could be expected to know that they were risking their lives. And losing. Why would any one of them been thinking before the event that "this building could fall and kill us"? ALL the other people listed knew, or should have known, that there was a risk of dramatic failure.



spsalso

Yes the preface to my Executive Summary would be it is ‘All About Money’

Which includes who’s pockets are being lined, and how the lowest paid and skilled workers are in high demand as long as they improve bottom line to the greasing of the rails for Developer/Investors/Government Officials and other ‘tax collectors’ restricting the valve flow. For example the Rodney Dangerfield Rich Tycoon goes to Business School Movie.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090685/

@Optical98
That is not a FD badge in South Florida. Nor is it any of the PD's. We give badges, and someties even patrol/city cars, to non LE or FD positions here.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (Demented )

That is not a FD badge in South Florida. Nor is it any of the PD's. We give badges, and someties even patrol/city cars, to non LE or FD positions here.

City of Miami FD - Admin; tenant in PH-9 IIRC.

They switch badges recently? An upstairs neighbor is MDFD and she still runs this one too.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (1503-44 (Petroleum))

He seems to say his woman is burned, "quemada".

Quote (Optical98 (Computer))

Nico Vázquez's girlfriend Gimena Accardi, supposedly ran into a palm tree during their escape... in pics she has a black eye, more consistent with how people look when getting hit in the face with an airbag.

Hmmm... very interesting seeing these posts in juxtaposition. I'm sure I don't need to point out to this crowd that airbag deployments can cause burns.

BKNJ

BKNJ

How do we know that was Nico Vazquez talking to the police in that video?

Here's what she looked like after...I don't see burns.



https://www.archyde.com/the-first-photo-of-gimena-...

Quote (Demented)

They switch badges recently? An upstairs neighbor is MDFD and she still runs this one too.

City of Miami, not Miami-Dade County.

It’s a fairly specific shield for admin.

Ah, that explains that. City FD completely slipped my mind.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote:

BKNJ

How do we know that was Nico Vazquez talking to the police in that video?

Here's what she looked like after...I don't see burns.

https://www.archyde.com/the-first-photo-of-gimena-...

"product of a blow against a palm tree in full flight- and a deep gesture of regret."

Regret is an odd word here. Translation issue?

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

Quote (BKNJ (Computer) 6 Aug 21 20:16 Quote (1503-44 (Petroleum)) He seems to say his woman is burned, "quemada".)

He says: "Está lastimada, mi mujer." My wife is injured.

The first time I heard "quemada," but after listening to it another couple of times, I am confident he said "lastimada," which is Argentine spanish for injured.

Ok, gotta ask. So is Miami-Dade PD really the County Sheriff?
I read The Miami-Dade PD Chief is not an elected official.

So does the City of Miami and all the other Directional Miami’s have their own PD’s like Surfside’s 8 man unit?

Quote (Demented (Industrial) 6 Aug 21 21:41 Quote: BKNJ How do we know that was Nico Vazquez talking to the police in that video? Here's what she looked like after...I don't see burns. https://www.archyde.com/the-first-photo-of-gimena-... "product of a blow against a palm tree in full flight- and a deep gesture of regret." Regret is an odd word here. Translation issue?)

From https://www.infobae.com/teleshow/2021/06/29/la-pri...

"profundo gesto de pesar" deep gesture of grief.
Pesar can also be regret. It depends on the context.
Condolence: Pésame

Quote (All About Money)

Ok, gotta ask. So is Miami-Dade PD really the County Sheriff?
I read The Miami-Dade PD Chief is not an elected official.

So does the City of Miami and all the other Directional Miami’s have their own PD’s like Surfside’s 8 man unit?

Miami-Dade (Metropolitan Government) does not currently have a sheriff’s department, but Miami-Dade Police Department (Metro Dade) is in the process of transitioning to one. Some municipalities have their own PD, some use MDPD on contract.

Surfside is one of the smaller muni departments with 24 officers (8 per shift).

@Santos81, Thanks for responding. In my area we are very dense in single family homes, some on large lots, but the newer ones on smaller lots. Even the apartment complexes are typically only 2-3 stories high, and of wood frame construction. I think wood frame is limited to 5 stories, but those require dense stud spacings on lower levels.

But in comparison to Miami with all the high rise condo's with bare minimum land foot print, the population density is far higher, thus perhaps the logic for having lots of small geographic cities?

Quote (Optical98)

...supposedly ran into a palm tree during their escape... in pics she has a black eye, more consistent with how people look when getting hit in the face with an airbag.

Escape? Are you suggesting these foreign actors were investigating the corrupt Mayor and city officials with all that dirty money and payoffs and threatened to call in the Feds (with their cool badges) but were discovered by the illuminaughty who gave chase and made them Regret their snooping and crash their car into a tar kettle that ker-sploded with enough force (and sonic booms!!1!) that it landed on the roof knocking over the parapet, tar paper rolls, guys on ladders, and A/C units before falling to the ground and causing the pool deck to de-laminate because of the poorly constructed (with no permits) unmaintained building with a huge AHU supported by a flimsy steel frame with crappy welds (that somehow survived falling from the roof) and severing the conduits causing the lights to blink out an S.O.S. and proving beyond a shadow of a doubt what triggered the collapse?
We're gonna need someone to analyze the whereabouts and motives of each and every one of the eyeball witnesses, (and day laborers) and get their sworn testimony on body-cam video to go over frame by frame and time sync it with the weather reports of the meteor showers, to determine how they by-passed the fire alarms and elevator controls, and compile it all in a power-pointy do-dad so we can fully understand just how utterly implausible all this nonsense is.

Quote (Nukeman948 (Electrical)6 Aug 21 23:30)

You lost me at "do-dad"

Quote (Sym P. le (Mechanical)6 Aug 21 23:41)

You lost me at "do-dad"

If you stuck with him that far, then I think we're all good.
As a compiler of power-pointy do-dads, I gave Nukeman948 another star.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (SFCharlie)

Your powerpoints are perfectly ok mate. Their pixel-pushing perspectives pass the pub test.

Do we know what unit the actors were staying in? It sounds like it was in the part that collapsed. If so, they are very, very lucky they didn't eat any faster.

Quote (Optical98 (Computer))

How do we know that was Nico Vazquez talking to the police in that video?

He is visible on the right of the car. People in the Youtube comments identified him... and many were not real happy with the officer's reaction.

Quote:

Here's what she looked like after...I don't see burns.

I don't either, quite frankly. I suppose it could have faded... last chemical burn I had faded pretty quickly, but in the first 30 minutes, I hurt enough that a normal person would have called 911. IEGeezer's translation makes me think there is likely nothing here.

BKNJ

Quote (Optical98)

Here's what she looked like after

Palm tree bark is very rough and I imagine if you hit one with your face hard enough to blacken an eye I would think you'd see cuts and abrasions on her nose, forehead or cheek.

Quote (Jedidad)

Palm tree bark is very rough and I imagine if you hit one with your face hard enough to blacken an eye I would think you'd see cuts and abrasions on her nose, forehead or cheek.

So if she wasn't burned, and you reject the tree story, the only possible answer is the airbag shielded her from getting burned by the tar kettle ker-splosion? Do you imagine her making up the tree story to protect her boyfriend from the Feds? Maybe she has all the missing files from the storage unit!!! Oh-NoEs!! SHE'S A DOUBLE AGENT!!

Quote (All About Money)

13 Perhaps this exercise is a waste of time, but it seems compiling a list of really plausible contribution factors and perhaps ranking them or trying to quantify them is similar to what Maud is compiling with her witness statements data base.

I made us a form to automagically populate a spreadsheet, for just this purpose. It’s a couple of threads ago. Give me a little while to find it…I skinned a finger today in an 80 grit belt sander incident and I need to do some wound management. I will edit this post to add it, unless someone else find it first.

>>>>>Edit: Here are the existing form and spreadsheet. Wanna make changes to the fields?

This is a Google Form that automagically writes to the spreadsheet!

1. Complete and submit the Engineering Input Form
Screen Name
Type
Sub-type
Theory/Hypothesis <short description>
Proven Evidence
Possible Evidence Not Yet Proven
Argument Against
Notes/Links

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1N2dEQi7aJwsxngfyY...

Tip: Check the spreadsheet to see if your Theory is already listed. If it is, use the same Type, Sub-Type, and Theory/Hypothesis so that sorting will place your entry by the previous listing. There is no limit on how many listings a particular theory may have.

2. Review the CTS Collapse spreadsheet to see your entry/entries and everyone else’s entries.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11LJTDM2VJ5...

We will use the Type/Sub-type fields as organizers. This will allow us to sort the spreadsheet so that related items will appear next to each other. This will be more efficient than human intervention to organize separate tabs, although we could do that after we end submissions.

Please let me know if you think any of the fields need to be updated or if anything doesn’t seem to be working properly. Have at it!

What we know about the Vazquezes’ experience, including their unit number, is in the Timeline spreadsheet that I am about to update with the video where they ask the English-speaking cop for help. All their fans on YouTube say it’s Nicolas Vazquez talking to the cop in the bodycam video.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vzmMPe83Qy...

>>>>>Edit: FWIW, and not that it matters in terms of the collapse witness timeline, at the hospital in Florida, Gimena Accardi (wife of Nicolas Vazquez,) presented with a big egg on her forehead, received a head CT, and was pronounced OK. Hospitals generally don’t do CTs on people who present with burns.

Quote (Santos81)

City of Miami FD - Admin; tenant in PH-9 IIRC.

Thanks! Based on what he said to the cops, I thought he might be in 1209. I wonder where he stashed his wife and kids so quickly after they got out? He ran as fast as he could to the first responders. Maybe they weren’t home at the time.

>>>>>Edit: my curiosity doesn’t matter. He had no new information for this inquiry.

Quote (Nukeman948)

So if she wasn't burned, and you reject the tree story, the only possible answer is the airbag shielded her from getting burned by the tar kettle ker-splosion? Do you imagine her making up the tree story to protect her boyfriend from the Feds? Maybe she has all the missing files from the storage unit!!! Oh-NoEs!! SHE'S A DOUBLE AGENT!!

Nice Strawman Fallacy. This place is turning into Reddit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH7QXB4jw6M

Edit: Seems work on the site was halted over permitting issues regarding shoring of the remaining structure.

You might consider toning this down... we are getting away from the engineering theme of this website. Speculation should not be included. It's a matter of waiting to see what information comes out from any upcoming reports.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

If you're referring to me, sorry for trying to shed some insight into why the site has been being left alone for weeks.

Quote:

At the hearing before Judge Michael Hanzman, Goldberg called the state of the pool deck an “immediate life safety issue.”

Hanzman was also expected to allow Goldberg to sign off on a roughly $500,000 permit to allow Miami-Dade to hire Bofam Construction Company to brace the retainment walls at the property.

But that permit had a timeline of up to six months, which the county considered “unacceptable,” Hanzman said. The county brought in an additional engineering firm that is revising the drawings and design of the buttressing, and those new plans will be ready next week. Once they are completed, a new emergency hearing will be held so Goldberg can sign off on the permit.

https://therealdeal.com/2021/08/06/portion-of-cham...

I find it interesting they are now worried about preserving evidence, and worrying about collapse after tub survived massive heavy metal track- excavator traffic.

Probably 80,000 lb size excavators

Quote (dik)

You might consider toning this down... we are getting away from the engineering theme of this website. Speculation should not be included. It's a matter of waiting to see what information comes out from any upcoming reports.

This whole series of threads is further gone than the structural integrity of that patio slab at this point. All of this needs to be reined in. And limited to the dissemination of factual information as it is released by authorities or news organizations (e.g. ENR). Or a discussion of how engineers practicing in the fields related to the design, construction, and maintenance of the building can learn from this failure.

The rest of it should all go elsewhere (Reddit, for instance) with a link to that at the head of the new thread for those who want to partake.

agree...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

What I've learned from my power-pointy do-dad
I've taken a lot of heat for my power-pointy do-dad, but I learned several things from creating it.
1. The wind was so high that the bush in front of the neighboring building was constantly in motion.
2. That, if the leaves on that bush don't move, it is a duplicate frame.
3. That the image in the first visible frame matches the models of the as built building, that Rodface and Santos81 created, with the entire center of pool facing (south) side dropped one story.
4. That the smart posters on this thread didn't need a power-pointy to see that.
5. That there are dark blobs above (behind?) and also to the left (west) of the PH roof parapets, that I can't explain, (of course, that could just be me.)
6. That the entire center of the pool side dropped intact until the 23rd (counting duplicates) frame.
7. That my intuition was correct, you can't analyze time and distance dropped from a fuzzy hand held video of a security system monitor. (due to hand motion, fuzziness, duplicate frames, and more.)

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer) (OP) 7 Aug 21 17:15)

5. That there are dark blobs above (behind?) and also to the left (west) of the PH roof parapets, that I can't explain, (of course, that could just be me.)

I think you are looking at the uncollapsed portions (which eventually collapse) behind the front face that is in the process of collapsing. This may include the lower roof (between the elevator shaft and penthouse) pitching down as well as the 13th floor passageway to the penthouse condos.

Quote (CE3527 (Civil/Environmental)7 Aug 21 19:36)

uncollapsed portions (which eventually collapse) behind the front face that is in the process of collapsing. This may include the lower roof (between the elevator shaft and penthouse) pitching down as well as the 13th floor passageway to the penthouse condos.

Yes That is my suspicion also.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Is there any sort of a global database on concrete structure collapses?

I know big collapses with lots of casualties usually get investigations, but I'm sure there are a few punching shear parking deck failures every year that only briefly make local headlines. This would probably be helpful in understanding the initial Parking/Pool deck failure.

Quote (Reverse_Bias (Electrical)8 Aug 21 01:23)

I'm sure there are a few punching shear parking deck failures every year

I googled "punching shear parking", and got plenty of responses, one was on eng-tips.

SF Charlie
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I wonder how many of them might have been a wee bit short on rebar.
I, of course, wonder the same thing more locally.


spsalso

If you feel like paying some $ there's this study. Only an 11 year span though.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245289884...


https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-c3d...

Quote (I found it worth it to get a subscription to the Miami Herald)

BEHIND OUR REPORTING
While federal and local investigations are underway, there is an urgent need for the public to understand what went wrong at Champlain Towers South.

The Herald worked with four engineers and a general contractor who reviewed a trove of records to better understand the circumstances of the collapse. The documentation included structural drawings and design plans of Champlain Towers South provided by the town of Surfside, high-resolution photographs of the collapse debris, and decades’ worth of construction and renovation permits, inspections and other records, including communications from the condo board.

Surfside tower was flawed from day one. Designs violated the code, likely worsened collapse
Link

I have to admit Charlie, that article didn’t disappoint. Every single “expert” contradicts themselves over and over again; something that has been a recurring theme with CTS for a very long time.

The only engineer who has made a completely accurate public statement was Loizeaux regarding the concrete condition of the columns at the basement level.

SF Charlie, can you archive that article and repost it? It's paywalled :/

Oh nvm ^^

So did big Al basically say the North towers looked good before realizing the original construction plans didn`t meet code?

@SFCharlie, Thank-You for that article. I agree with Santos81, it did not disappoint and was worth your investment.

There were may great points about inadequate design in this article, and conflicting analysis by experts, but the except below based upon witness testimony and design short falls was very interesting to me concerning lateral movements of building.

"(Unlike frames built with beams and columns, in Champlain Towers the floor slabs provided most of the structure’s lateral stability, engineers who reviewed the plans told the Herald. The only other lateral support in the design was provided by reinforced concrete walls, called “shear walls,” at the stairwells and elevators, they said.
“The shear walls are very small. They are pitiful,” said Santiago, the former building inspector. “They don’t seem to have enough shear walls in one direction.”
When the first floor slab sagged around the columns, the whole structure became unstable and the tower began to sway.
Gabe Nir was in his family’s first-floor condo on the north side of the pool deck when he started hearing banging around 1 a.m., almost like a neighbor was engaged in late-night renovations, he said.
“I started feeling like this whole building started to move left and right,” Nir said. He said it felt like a cheap folding table swaying from side to side.)"

Soo... The columns were not wide enough to hold all the rebar nor the building, at least not the pool deck with active load??? and the pool deck wasn't thick enough to prevent punch through???

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

@SFCharlie, reduced column width greatly affected lateral stability in collapsed portion too, especially with lack of sufficient shear walls in E-W plane?

Edit: Miami Herald Article leads me to wonder if first floor building slab starting collapsing before lateral movements took down patio deck?

Or least first floor building slab deflections/failure starting the progressive collapse? If columns were undersized it seems that the extra loading/vibrations on roof would have affected first floor under designed columns and the marriage between the patio deck and the building slab at step down in slab?

Now you have to ask, why did first Builder walk off job?

There was a long parking garage attached to a high rise condo building collapsed in 2010 in Hackensack, NJ. The building had much better structural support than Champlain tower, and the collapse stopped at the building line. Residents weren't allowed back about 6 months while the structure was being assessed.


https://www.fireengineering.com/firefighting/unifi...

Quote (Reverse_Bias (Electrical)8 Aug 21 17:58)

parking garage attached to a high rise condo building collapsed in 2010 in Hackensack, NJ

Several photos in slide show
photos-from-inside-hackensack-nj-parking-garage-collapse

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

So I see that Breiterman signed off on this job, in his official capacity. And he said he did all the necessary inspections and everything was great.

I do wonder why.

Say, didn't he design the structure (with hints, of course, from the architect)? So, while he might have been good at seeing where the plans weren't followed (but apparently was not), he would naturally endorse someone following his plans even if they were full of errors. "They built it just like I designed!"

That said, it does seem that every building he ever worked on should be found and inspected, as to problems. Since he was an Official PE (I believe), I think the cost of that should be borne by a special assessment from his PE peers in Florida, who allowed him to become licensed.

The inspections should be done by out-of-state PE's (and maybe some helpers) that have NO ties to Florida.


Moving on to the City, I would assume, perhaps wrongly, that the City hired their own engineer to at least spend 3-4 hours going over the plans. Let's not forget who was paying Breiterman, and to whom he thus owed allegiance. This engineer, being paid by the City, would owe the City that allegiance.

Or. Did someone in the Building Department consider themselves competent to go over the plans? Seems a bit much. I have no problem with a City guy doing this for a bed/bath addition. But this one was BIG.

spsalso

NIST search results 'surfside'
I hadn't been aware of this:
B-Roll Video Reel - Champlain Tower NIST investigation

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

NIST researchers at Champlain Towers
Do I see cold joints top, bottom, and side of the column? Is this the standard way for slab and column to be cast?
Now I can see it better, what I though were smooth failures at the sides turned out to be rebar, sorry.


SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

Quote (SFCharlie)

NIST search results 'surfside'
I hadn't been aware of this:
B-Roll Video Reel - Champlain Tower NIST investigation

I posted it to open thread 7. But it apparently got lost in noise over the structural defects people were observing in the real estate listings for different units.

Quote (SFCharlie)

Soo...

It would be very difficult to assess anything those experts suggest for one simple reason.

The plans provided by Surfside do not depict the as-built structure.

Quote (All About Money)

the except below based upon witness testimony and design short falls was very interesting to me concerning lateral movements of building.

This is the first time I had read this card table/lateral movement statement attributed to Gabe Nir. In all the previous statements he talked about feeling the rumbling and the building shaking…not mentioning anything like this new statement. I wonder if the M-H interviewed him again. Has anyone seen any other source with a statement like this?

Also, they missed Chani Nir’s statement that the knocking sounds were happening when she got home at 11 PM. And we still don’t know if Shomoka Furman heard the knocking sounds from the lobby. So they are starting their witness timeline with Gabe and Sara’s arrival at 12:30.

Quote (SFCharlie (Computer) (OP) 8 Aug 21 18:47)

Is this the standard way for slab and column to be cast?

Yes. The photo shows a column extended through two levels, the lower to the left and the upper to the right. The rebar from the lower level is crimped so that it laps up to the inside of the upper level column rebar (the photo can be misleading seeming to to show the lower level rebar terminating below the upper level rebar). One can also infer from the photo that the upper level column rebar was stood in place prior to the casting of the floor slab.

The slab rebar in your photo is extraordinary for its paucity.





I'm curious as to what the inspector is pointing too but the photo does not lend much to positive speculation on that.

Articles mentioning "swaying"
'Tragedy beyond tragedy': Champlain Towers South was a catastrophe in slow motion

Quote (CNN)

Raysa Rodriguez was sleeping in her room on the ninth floor when she awoke disoriented. The building was swaying "like a sheet of paper." She ran into the hallway to find that it had been impaled from floor to ceiling by a concrete pillar; the doors of the elevators were shorn off, exposing the shafts.

Family Escape From Florida Condo Collapse: ‘Run, Quick!’
There is detail in this that I haven't seen before, but it paraphrased... ...originally from the Washington Post.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

@Sym P. Le

You can also noticed the burnt ends, which shouldn't be. The gas axe shouldn't have been anywhere near that.





Maybe I read the wrong article, but are there really people now trying to say the building had too much rebar and that's the issue?

@Demented, One wonders why the gas axe was needed, if the rebars were detailed on shop drawings by fabrications shop, cut and bent to exact lengths, and tagged or marked according to shop drawings as to where they go. Of course, you have to be willing and able to read and understand the shop drawings during assembly?

Edit: Perhaps gas axe used to adjust for as-building errors? Or using wrong rebar in wrong location? Or Who needs Shop Drawings, just build on job site on the fly?

Quote (Demented (Industrial)8 Aug 21 20:26)

... the building had too much rebar and that's the issue?

It may have said that, but I understood it to mean the column was to narrow for the required rebar. (also, the NIST photo seems to show all the rebar very close to the bottom of the slab. Yes, that's where the tension is, but was there sufficient cover?)

SF Charlie
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Quote (spsalso (Electrical)8 Aug 21 18:32
So I see that Breiterman signed off on this job, in his official capacity. And he said he did all the necessary inspections and everything was great.)

The general rules for engineering work seem to be that all engineers are expected to perform their work to the "standard of care" at the time and location of the design of the project in question. The code adopted in that area at the time defines the minimum requirements, and additional requirements generally used by engineers at the time and location could set the "standard of care".
So we need to look at other buildings designed by other engineers for Surfside and Miami in 1980 to define that "standard of care". If there is a preponderance of projects with better corrosion and chloride protection (more concrete cover, epoxy coated rebar, dense and modified concrete) and this project is found not to have that protection, then the engineer has not met the "standard of care" threshold.
Add to that that many courts find that if the project served as intended for 10 years then something else must have developed in the interim. Like bad environment and no maintenance - think coastal exposure.
Serious design errors do not make it past construction - think FIU Pedestrian Bridge. Champlain lasted probably 3 dozen (12 floors x 3 zones ?) removals of slab forming and shoring while the concrete was not fully developed strength wise and 40 years of occupancy and exposure.
We should note it is failures like CTS and close examinations like this forum and by government agencies that may move the bar as to "standard of care" and/or code requirements.
Thanks,

@All About Money

A few things I've seen out in the wild.

1) Shop fabricated cage needed to be cut to allow for lateral rebar. It's getting encased in concrete, no one will notice
2) Short on rebar. Use offs to make up difference, weld cut ends together per super. Nothing detailed on drawings, often forgotten. Or "we'll do it tomorrow first thing" only to come in to concrete encasing the work you never finished.
3) Length call-outs as multiples of diameter is not as easily understood by the laborers or detailers as we'd all like to assume.

After reading the Miami Herald article “Surfside tower was flawed from day one” found by SFCharlie, it sure sounds like the CTS building was poorly designed and poorly constructed and was ready to collapse at any moment. But the article does hedge a bit, stating that “Although the trigger is still unknown, there is a growing consensus that the Champlain Towers’ progressive collapse was initiated by a first-floor slab failure”.

It is interesting that the article quotes the recognized structural expert, Allyn Kilsheimer, as stating that the Champlain Towers North building, which has the same design plans and construction team that the CTS had, “did not raise any red flags after his initial inspection.” In fact, he states further: “I would let my kids and grandkids stay in this building,” Kilsheimer told reporters on July 12. “And, if I find something that would not let me do that, the first thing I would do is tell you, ‘you have to get out of here.’ We have not found anything that concerns me at all on the exposed and visible conditions or on the testing we’ve done so far.” Later, Kilsheimer told reporters he had subsequently looked at the building designs and structural drawings but stood by his assessment that it is safe for occupancy.

Now, I believe this article, which echoes many of the comments made here on this Eng Tips thread. And what I have been trying to do is to find the trigger for this collapse. My latest effort has involved trying to find evidence in the debris pile to support what was found in the TikTok video. I started with the following figure, which shows that the objects in the TikTok video were seen near the M11.1 column at the base of the ramp. This region is close to column 76 and column 28, which lie on either side of the driveway just a few feet beyond column M11.1.



In the next figure, column 76 and column 28 can be seen on the pool deck after the collapse. By noting that column M11.1 lies in a line with column K11.1 which also can be seen in the figure, one can establish that the TikTok objects should be located approximately within the red ellipse in this figure. Note that under the umbrellas in this figure one can distinguish multiple rolls of tarpaper, which were suspected by some to be vaguely visible in the TikTok video.



In the next photo, which shows the region of interest from a different angle, I have zoomed in on this region of interest. Sure enough, one can see the same objects that were found in the TikTok video still located on the basement floor under only one layer of debris from the roof of the east wing that collapsed last. One can easily distinguish the top of an air conditioner and the bottom part of the same air conditioner behind it. One can also see two hexagonal weights on rods, one on each side of the air conditioner, along with pipes, a planter, and a long metal bar attached to a cement column that were seen in the TikTok video.



One can see these same TikTok objects in the following photo taken after the west wing of the building was demolished. These objects can be seen more easily by zooming in further on the ellipse, which can be done using the PowerPoint document provided with this post. Again, it is easy to distinguish an air conditioner under the pile along with two hexagonal weights on rods and pipes seen in the TikTok video. In addition, things seen in this photo that could not be seen in the previous photo include tarpaper rolls within the field of view of the TikTok video along with a car in parking space 26 and another white car in either parking space 28 or on the driveway behind the TikTok objects.



These two photos not only show the same objects seen in the TikTok video, but also the same objects that were seen on the small debris pile left at the end of the ramp for two days when everything else in the parking basement was removed. It is believed that the recovery crew leaving this small debris pile standing for two days was an indication of its importance as supported by red cones connected by red tape left on the ramp and by seeing five Miami Dade firefighters witness every shovelful of debris removed by the crane operator when clearing this region.

I will not go into the implications of these videos at this time. I suspect it will be controversial enough to establish that the main object in these photos is an air conditioner that appears to have dropped from the roof onto the beam between column 27 and column M11.1. This object appears to have sheared the horizontal beam from column 27, thereby eliminating horizontal support from column 27, and initiating the collapse of the pool deck and then of the building itself, just as was seen in the CCTV surveillance video. This appears to be the trigger that caused the collapse. All of this would have been aided by the design errors and construction deficiencies discussed in the Miami Herald article.

The objects in these photos should be viewable much more easily than those in any of the previous photos I have shown. If anyone still persists in saying that there is nothing in these photos and that these objects are all a figment of my imagination, then they are taking a gamble that the final report for this collapse will contain evidence of these objects and maybe even cite them as the trigger for the collapse. In this case deniers of this evidence and those who ridicule it will look foolish indeed.

• https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=3f127b5c-546a-4b83-8e8f-3

@Markbob2

Are you calling the fire fighters sitting at the table roofing rolls?
I swear I've got a higher resolution photo from one of the FR teams somewhere that shows the fire fighters taking break time there in the mid-day heat.

Quote (MarkBoB2 (Electrical))

Quote (We have not found anything that concerns me at all)

Sounds strangely familiar to the statement by Denny Pate (EOR) less than three hours before 6 people died at FIU.
He has reset the clock, so to speak, from 40 years ago to today, and should several of todays engineers find a problem, he may find he did not meet the "standard of care" for investigating a building in 2021. He clearly did not have anything to do with conditions created 40 years ago, but he has promised everyone in the building that they are safe today. If anything bad should happen, he has bought it. I doubt he has that much insurance.

@Vance Wiley

What we read in Miami Herald investigation based upon their design based calculations, may be giving the As-Built Condition too much credit, since nothing seen so far in public information indicates the building was built as well as the suspect design.

Edit: The garage floor slab appears to have fared well from collapse and heavy construction vehicle traffic during cleanup.

Quote (MarkBoB2)

. . . these objects are all a figment of my imagination, . . .

Obviously, I am more than willing to risk looking foolish, however I am not trying to prove any one theory over any others.

Quote (Santos81)

The plans provided by Surfside do not depict the as-built structure.

And the only way to confirm how it was actually built (and remodeled, maintained) is to wait for the investigations findings.
They will show where the flaws were and what likely led to the collapse, and those facts will be hard for some people here to swallow.

I have attempted to find a trigger by assuming that the drains in the planters were clogged and the planters had filled up with water. How much would this water have weighed? The full version of Acrobat has a measuring tool that can be used to estimate the dimensions of the planters and therefore the area. Based on a photo of the planters, I assumed the height of the planters was about 1 meter.

I assumed water so I used a density of 1, then converted back to pounds. Based on the photo below,

I estimated the additional weight of planters full of water due to the rain at about 85,000 lbs. The structural engineers will need to opine if this was enough weight to trigger the collapse, given the deteriorated state of the slab, the extra weight of the additional layers of tile and the poor initial design. Just a thought.

https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/u...

https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/u...

Many many threads ago the SE's said water weight on the slab didn't matter.

I came out closer to 121klbs (14500 gal) give or take a few. I also attempted to factor in additional water that would have been sitting on the deck in the areas where water was known to collect and not drain, (which was around the same blocked planters).

The drains were known to be inop and past beautification work filled in overflow holes in the planters. This was also directly over failed concrete repairs. Even if the weight itself wasn't the ultimate thing that collapsed it, the amount of water that could have finally found a flow path would have been quite the amount.
I probably should get back to figuring all that mess out now that the fun with the roof has ended. lol

Just found this article, I'm not even done reading it, but have already picked up details I haven't read elsewhere.

"Control of personnel is absolute. After just a few hours the Americans tell us that there are clear boundaries, that you cannot cross from one side of the site to the other. That of course drives the Israelis crazy."

"Relatives of the family in Apartment 804 tell Yuval they are sure their son went down to the garage before the building collapsed and that right now, he is trapped in his white Cherokee jeep. Yuval forwards the message to me. We go down to the flooded garage and find the car but the son is not there."


Miami: A search and rescue diary

Col. Golan Vach, head of the IDF Home Front Command's search and rescue delegation to the scene of the Surfside tragedy, recalls the chilling, two-week mission at the disaster site. The sleepless nights, the unique operating methods used to locate those trapped under the rubble, and the connection with the victims' families.

https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/08/06/miami-a-sea...

Quote (MarkBoB2)

Something, something, hexagon, paper rolls, paper rolls, aliens, kgb

Quote (Nukeman948)

And the only way to confirm how it was actually built (and remodeled, maintained) is to wait for the investigations findings.
They will show where the flaws were and what likely led to the collapse, and those facts will be hard for some people here to swallow.

Thankfully that’s where ambiguity of the law helps instead of condemns. There’s going to be some proverbial swallowing without a doubt; that’s reserved for those who have skin in this game and not some perverse sleuthing fascination.

PLEASE STOP POSTING IN THIS PART 10 PLEASE
Please allow me to move the discussion to Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11, Thank-you.
Someone Please close this post to new postings, or message me how to do this, Thanks.

SF Charlie
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Quote (SFCharlie)

There is detail in this that I haven't seen before, but it paraphrased... ...originally from the Washington Post.

That’s verbatim the WaPo piece from several days after the collapse. Nothing new. It is the one piece that states that Sarah Nor decided to go to the lobby at 1:14.