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# Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 1441

## Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Good morning Vietnam! Glad to have Part 14! up and running. Can't promise I won't stop talking about palm trees, though LOL!

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

As long as we move on from pavers..

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)
Maybe we could talk about Demented(Industrial)'s post at 10 Oct 21 18:37 on part 13 and answer the question "Still just as confused. So I guess, wtf is that rebar cage?"
or
Maybe we can talk about if we can tell what fell first the valet parking or the planter from the witness statements? The tourist video was after the valet parked cars sank, but who knows how long the garage was full of debris before the tourists noticed?

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Just a thought on that beam sitting on the floor, position thereof. A beam connection is the last thing you'd expect to punch through, right? So in the general collapse maybe the columns under the beam buckled or leaned over, not punched, so the beams will be laterally displaced from where they started out by maybe the length of a column or so.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Or it was pushed around in the clean up. It looks to be in the correct spot, but that cage is where the drive path was. What's odd is there doesn't appear to be another cage or column base on the west hand side opening of the beam section.. It didn't move North, as we still have 4 column rows north, and 2 east. Pointless though. I'm pretty sure I'm just lost in shitty photo perspectives.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Piles; has anything been said about those? Last I recall we still didn't know if precast driven or Franki/PIF was used.

@SFCharlie.
So there was that January 2019 complaint about fears of work too close to the property line and damage to the property, but political BS. Other than this spot, the perimeter wall appears to be in much better condition with no cave-ins. A little over 3 years is a decent time for a damaged support wall to have a vibrating and changing load on it.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (SFCharlie)

Maybe we can talk about if we can tell what fell first the valet parking or the planter from the witness statements?

We have already talked about this in past threads, so I see no value in rehashing it. But, to review, no, you cannot tell a deck collapse sequence from witness statements.

We know from Jinal’s structural analysis where the weakest part of the deck structure was.

We know that Elena Blasser in 1211 was awakened by unusual loud cracking sounds the previous morning, sometime between 3 and 4 AM.

We know from the banging sounds heard in 111 from 11 PM on that something was already changing in the deck or building. We don’t know if these sounds were heard elsewhere, or if they started earlier.

We know that something fell loudly at 1:10 AM, and was heard from 111 and the lobby. We don’t know what fell or where it fell.

We know that Nico Vazquez and his wife Gimena Accardi were in the garage elevator vestibule just before the deck fell at about 1:15 AM, and they heard odd loud cracking sounds a few seconds before they got on the elevator. They were actually in the elevator when the deck collapsed. The Vazquezes did not state that they saw any debris in the garage before they got on the elevator. That’s not to say that a piece of ceiling couldn’t have collapsed in an area that they didn’t look toward. However, we don’t know what space they parked in or what path they walked to the elevator.

We know that the only witnesses (Sarah Nir and Shamoka Furman) who saw the deck collapse at about 1:15 AM saw it from the lobby, so they were looking at the parking deck near the lobby. Neither of them reported having looked past the parking deck at that time.

We know that Adriana Sarmiento and Roberto Castillero were in the pool area at the Bluegreen Resort, and heard the deck collapse at about 1:15 AM. They made their way over to the street and videoed the debris within the garage viewed down the garage ramp at 1:18 AM.

We know that Cassie Stratton in 410 told her husband that the pool deck had collapsed when she spoke to him in the moments before the building collapsed at 1:22 AM.

>>>>>Edit: charlieSF favors PPTs and I favor spreadsheets. So here’s a spreadsheet version of all this text. I can add a column for Why if anyone has any explanations they’d like me to add.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)
Thank you!
Jeff Ostroff
SwinnyGG
AusG
Demented
sgw1009
MaudSTL

so, "something fell loudly at 1:10 AM", "just before the deck fell at about 1:15 AM, and they heard odd loud cracking sounds a few seconds before they got on the elevator. They were actually in the elevator when the deck collapsed", "saw the deck collapse at about 1:15 AM saw it from the lobby", "heard the deck collapse at about 1:15 AM. They made their way over to the street and videoed the debris within the garage viewed down the garage ramp at 1:18 AM.", "the pool deck had collapsed when she spoke to him in the moments before the building collapsed at 1:22 AM" Thank you Maud!

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

And there had been those cracking noises the previous am too. The building was being strained somehow. The catenary of incipient sag in the deck is to me a credible, large force not obvious to the casual eye. But from when?

We see the odd situation near the pool where the upper nonstructural material did not punch when the slab did. Perhaps the structural part of the pool deck was pulling hard on the columns for days, with small deformations masked by the upper layers and not noticed underneath in a dim corner of the garage. I know this requires two ifs and two ifs are worse than one, but otherwise we have to be buckling columns or punching slabs inside the building.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (AusG)

The catenary of incipient sag in the deck is to me a credible large force not obvious to the casual eye. But from when?

“From when” is a really good question. To speculate, I can imagine the deck sagging increasingly for a day or even longer, pulling at three facade columns in the x11 stack. Could there have been enough force to have started one column, which happened also to have been having an anchor installed in it, to buckle and wake up the late Ms. Blasser in 1211 22 hours earlier?

I keep wishing some investigator would talk to survivors and see if anyone heard the banging sounds, which increased in intensity over time, earlier than 11 PM. Could these banging sounds have been the deck continuing to sag until finally a delaminated ceiling section fell into the garage at 1:10 AM? This was just five or so minutes before the deck finally punched through and collapsed, enough time for the Vazquezes to park, walk to the elevator vestibule, hear loud cracking sounds, and get into the elevator.

All speculative, of course. Maybe this is not a good way to use this forum. But there’s just not enough publicly known data to to do more than speculate, is there?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

The piles were Frankie/PIF Piles

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Link to findings? Or just going off original drawings?

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

The audits will identify buildings with poor documentation, and maybe shortlist some with poor designs/ concrete etc. But there is a fundamental problem: the buildings are all like CTS before June 24: "Hey, it's stood fine for 40 years". Condemning, and kicking out residents with some buyback scheme is going to be expensive and litigious, and where would you stop? None of them will be perfect but few of them will actually fall over.

I could make a case for retrofitting a couple of simple accelerometers into older buildings, set a baseline of background creaks and groans, and review anything else for more serious symptoms. Our SE's have never been happy with outright collapse with no warning. The likely case here is that warnings went unrecognised. Rather than wait for the perfect testable smoking gun that may never come, why not wire up the worst of the shortlist for actual signs of a problem? Probably cheaper even than having the whole place pulled apart for concrete coring and the like (whoops sorry mate, cut that rebar, never mind)

People put up with false fire alarms with weary acceptance. Building-killing vibrations could be set apart from background a little more clearly so there will be less crying wolf. Just a thought, but I like measuring things.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Just a reminder, I've seen columns bigger than 16x16 holding up the roof of a Walmart.

Also some 24X24 columns that were damaged by the deck cave in and did not collapse, only the 16x16 ones did.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Some of the columns under the parking deck were also 16 x12, don't forget. And if you have forces tugging in the wrong direction, you really only have a 12" column.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

S. African Architect Mike Bell has posted a new video with animations. https://youtu.be/WdkdIUdJLEk

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (MaudSTL (Computer))

S. African Architect Mike Bell has posted a new video

His "lever arm force" as the culprit is what I believe has been discussed here for quite some time as "catenary" action of the relevant beam slab arrangement of the pool deck connection to the building proper. I think this has been mulled over quite a bit and has not been rejected.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (MaudSTL ()

USA Today investigates construction project corruption in 1980s Miami. https://archive.is/dEJbC

>>>>>Edit: The same story picked up by Yahoo News retains the embedded content better than the archived version. https://autos.yahoo.com/autos/left-rot-collapsed-c...

It does a really good job explaining where all that white dust came from.

Seriously though they did do a good job tracking down 80s drug kingpins in prison and getting the inside story of that building.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

I don't think it's been mentioned here, but I've read that in at least two cases, walls were removed between units to turn two units into one large unit. Also possible that some interior walls were removed within units to create a more open floor plan. Even if they weren't (supposed to be) load bearing walls, it doesn't seem like this would have helped the structure.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Is there any documentation on multiple units being combined? There's no permits for such modifications.

Kitchen and laundry room walls were removee in many units. They were noted as not load bearing, though I too doubt that.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Demented)

Is there any documentation on multiple units being combined?

If you scroll through this Miami Herald piece, the graphic for each floor shows each unit. Of course it may be wrong, but it doesn’t show any gigantic combined units.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/m...

>>>>>Edit: A similar piece by the NYT also shows the penthouse and the first floor.

https://archive.ph/HnOb8

Blockshopper shows that some investors owned multiple units, but the numbering doesn’t seem to indicate that any units were combined.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

I don't think there are any load-bearing walls inside the units unless somebody has seen something in the floor plans that I didn't notice. But usually, the columns themselves with the slab floor become the load support and all of the interior walls and condos are typically just metal studs which are not load-bearing walls. So the only load bearing walls I can think of would be the exterior walls and every living room has columns, and I have not really checked to see if the hallways had any load-bearing walls in them.

Bottom line is my guess is they could open up do units all they want and it wouldn't likely not be a problem comma as long as they don't mess with the columns or the exterior load-bearing walls

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

This was found by someone else, and apparently the unit numbers in it are incorrect and the actual unit numbers were 1108-1109.

https://www.condoblackbook.com/surfside/champlain-...

Supposedly 208-209 were also combined. These are in the part of the building that didn't collapse, but there has been a suggestion that 811-812 were combined, too.
[Post Deleted]

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

I don't think that's an accurate listing. That's one unit, a unit I, with the kitchen and laundry room walls still in tact; the kitchen actually closed off. This might be the unit that was mentioned very early on when there was a comment by an acquaintance of a unit owner about the amount of weight of marble that was added into one unit in unpermitted work. Hell of a unit though.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

I made a couple gifs to summarize most of Mike Bells video. These are beams along K,LM under the planters. The rightmost beam is M from the tictok video.

Edit: There I added Mike Bells name.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Reverse_Bias)

I made a couple gifs to summarize most of Mike Bells video.

These GIFs are using Mike Bell’s unaccredited work, and the right thing to do is to take them down. At first I suggested that you watermark them, but that robs Mike of income for his work.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)
Yes, and please go to the video https://youtu.be/WdkdIUdJLEk, give it a like and a comment (any simple one will do). These all count to YouTubes Robots. another 20 likes would help a lot! Thanks Oh, and read Maud's comment, viewer like it!

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

These GIFs are using Mike Bell’s unaccredited work

He might prefer that over dissing his work as "unaccredited" ;)

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)

#### Quote (Ampaire (Electrical)17 Oct 21 18:19)

He might prefer that over dissing his work as "unaccredited" ;)
I have no idea what you are trying to say. Have you even watched the video? He gives credit to every work he cited, even if he disagrees with the source. If you disagree, please say so, please don't just be snide about.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

un·ac·cred·it·ed
/ˌənəˈkredədəd/
Learn to pronounce
not recognized as having attained an acceptable standard.
"a mail-order degree from an unaccredited correspondence school"
Definitions from Oxford Languages

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

As opposed to uncredited, the intended (I hope) word. The gifs don't credit the original video creator, even if the post they're in does (though it lacks a link).

You also grant each other user of the Service a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free license to access your Content through the Service, and to use that Content, including to reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works, display, and perform it, only as enabled by a feature of the Service (such as video playback or embeds). For clarity, this license does not grant any rights or permissions for a user to make use of your Content independent of the Service.

So it's copyright infringement, since creation of gif clips isn't a feature of Youtube.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Eufalconimorph)

So it's copyright infringement, since creation of gif clips isn't a feature of Youtube.

Yup. “Uncredited” is what I meant to type, and I will correct it. When people fail to obtain permission to use the work of content creators, or fail to credit the creator after having received permission to use it, it is unethical. I have an artist friend who is constantly being ripped off, and it is not only a hassle for her to fight it but also hits her right in the pocketbook. For some reason, a lot of people seem to think that publication on the Internet implies public domain. As you stated better than I, it does not.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Eufalconimorph)

So it's copyright infringement, since creation of gif clips isn't a feature of Youtube.

That's splitting the hair pretty thin. Youtube doesn't feature transcript translation either. No one found that troubling.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Creative work is protected by copyright from creation. If it's not creative work, it's not copyrightable.

A "transcript" is not creative work.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Didn't mean to get everyone into a tangent about copywrite law.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)

#### Quote (spsalso (Electrical)18 Oct 21 03:53)

A "transcript" is not creative work.
A search on Google made it clear that it was not so clear...

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

You know what doesn't have a copyright?

A corbel, and a few of those might have been helpful here. Just saying.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

The foam ones right?

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

A ten second clip to illustrate a point is probably fair use anyway. But it's certainly polite to give credit.

It's a reasonable interpretation but I'm still not convinced by the 'pool deck first' because of the noises in 1211 the day before, which imply that something was wrong with one of those x11 column stacks before the pool collapse. But we aren't really getting any new information these days so there's not a lot to go into our theories.

@MaudSTL: interesting story about the corruption and money laundering, thanks for that.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Thanks, Red Corona.

From the WaPo, The prospect of a speedy real estate deal compounds some Surfside families’ grief:

“Allyn Kilsheimer — who investigated the Pentagon’s damage after 9/11 and the Oklahoma City federal building’s destruction after a 1995 bombing — may at last be permitted onto the condo site this week to run tests and soundings with his team, according to town officials.”

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Sad to read of human remains still outstanding from the recovery effort. Astonished to read of $750,000 in loose cash - not counting the 17 safes yet to be opened. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I'm not s USA Today subscriber so I can't read te story they linked to from last week at the ned o the article: "Left to rot: Collapsed condo born of botched construction and evidence of money laundering" That would be a good story to be able to read. The article linked to above was basically non-article by USA Today whose purpose is to dangle the carrot in front of us, then pay for the "Real" article. We are seeing more of this type of stories now. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Jeff, Is this the article you wanted to see? #### Quote (MaudSTL) USA Today investigates construction project corruption in 1980s Miami. https://archive.is/dEJbC >>>>>Edit: The same story picked up by Yahoo News retains the embedded content better than the archived version. https://autos.yahoo.com/autos/left-rot-collapsed-c... ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)20 Oct 21 03:13) I'm not s USA Today subscriber Should I unsubscribe from your channel? SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 CBS Miami has uploaded its human interest special Bonded by Tragedy. I am listening to it for new or clarified witness statements, but doubt there will be any engineering content. >>>>>Edit: Several details that were new to me have to do with what Mike Stratton says about the call he got from his late wife Cassie in 410. At 6:39, Mike Stratton says, “The shaking woke her up.” Cassie thought it was an earthquake, and that she was looking at a sinkhole. At this point in the video, they inserted a nice POV animation of the view of the collapsed deck from the perspective of unit 410. This statement was interesting to me: “She saw that water was flowing from the sinkhole into the garage, which is underneath the plaza.” Could the water she saw have been from the saturation of the delaminated deck layers? If the deck was that saturated, could the water weight have been the straw that broke the camel’s back? Another interesting detail. He says, “Then she said, ‘Oh my god, the building is shaking again.’…Then she screamed and that was it.” Could this imply that there was a pause in the shaking between what woke Cassie Stratton up and the shaking that occurred just as the building collapsed? It almost sounds like the building momentarily regained its balance but couldn’t maintain it. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Ampaire) Jeff, Is this the article you wanted to see? Quote (MaudSTL) USA Today investigates construction project corruption in 1980s Miami. https://archive.is/dEJbC >>>>>Edit: The same story picked up by Yahoo News retains the embedded content better than the archived version. https://autos.yahoo.com/autos/left-rot-collapsed-c... FWIW if I post an article, it doesn’t require a subscription, because I don’t subscribe to anything anyone here has ever heard of. I use an archiving tool, check aggregators like Yahoo!, and receive YouTube notifications. I never link to something I haven’t read or seen. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 That looks like it was the correct article. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (MaudSTL (Computer)) Could the water she saw have been from the saturation of the delaminated deck layers? Hmm. Are you suggesting the spaces between the layers trapped a volume of water that was free to flow when the deck collapsed? Otherwise I don't quite understand how soggy concrete released volumes of water that would flow just because it fractured. Edit: I'm not suggesting that it's not completely plausible. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Zebraso) Are you suggesting the spaces between the layers trapped a volume of water that was free to flow when the deck collapsed? I am asking if that’s even possible. What Mike Stratton is saying is second-hand, so we can’t assume it’s accurate. But if it is accurate, I wonder what it could have been. Severed fire sprinkler lines? Rainwater under the pavers or trapped in the delaminated slab layers by the garage ceiling epoxy? Something else? Or is this second-hand statement so odd that it should be discounted? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 That was one of my initial thoughts, especially considering the heavy rain in the days leading up. Close to 2.6" of rain I think. Especially with failed drains, layering between layers, failed waterproofing, incorrect deck sloping, and planters known to fill up, there was a lot of extra weight on that deck. Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented (Industrial)) failed waterproofing, incorrect deck sloping, How about incorrect or misapplied waterproofing? It was mentioned (I think) way back that misapplied water proofing can trap moisture. I understand that on a certain level. But what if it was beyond an accumulation of moisture within the pores of concrete? If they were trying to seal it from below, could that have created a damming effect? what about the hydraulic pressure within the layers? Could that have opened up more void space to hold more water over time? Just dumb questions. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Waterproofing that has been installed incorrectly can definitely trap moisture. Whatever waterproofing system seals the bottom of the assembly is also only part of a systematic approach; if water comes in above the in-ground waterproofing, and there's a drain issue, that water has no path out of the structure; you can easily have a serious water problem even if your waterproofing is perfect. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (zebraso) How about incorrect or misapplied waterproofing? It was mentioned (I think) way back that misapplied water proofing can trap moisture. I understand that on a certain level. But what if it was beyond an accumulation of moisture within the pores of concrete? If they were trying to seal it from below, could that have created a damming effect? what about the hydraulic pressure within the layers? Could that have opened up more void space to hold more water over time? Just dumb questions. It probably would. I agree most of the repair work done on the deck and building was short term mitigation stuff with little consideration for the long term or root cause of the issues. The leaky deck philosophy was: "We can't let water leak into the garage, cars might get wet. Lets waterproof the ceiling and trap it in the slab. What could go wrong?" ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) From my distance (far away on the other coast) it seems simpler that the recent rain accumulated in the sand and space between the pavers. What is the pipe the water is coming out of? edit (I suppose water could have accumulated in the delamination between the stamped concrete cover coat and the structural slab...?) SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 @zebraso Thank you! I was having a brain fart this morning with hydraulicing. Of course hydraulicing did happen, wasn't the phrase I knew was right. I have no doubt in my mind that could have helped delaminate the layers even further, and allow highly chlorinated water deeper and deeper into the structure. The vibrations of never ending construction, especially in a lot of wet times, probably didn't help any. Probably was some damming, but that concrete seemed to just crack and open up more paths for water leaking through it seems. Water intrusion in that building began almost instantly which is what lead to the first major concrete repair project in 96, and almost every 2-4 years they were doing the same work over and over in the same spots. The waterproofing applied in most of the work was rolled on, latex based, paint or sealant. It was known on the building to flake off, trap bubbles of moisture, and create channels that drained down to the perimeter of the main building where it sat on the deck. Just like water down in the parking garage, it was said that water would just sit there and then just drain away to no-one knows where. The planter waterproofing likely wasn't much of an issue. Past work permits involved patching exterior holes drilled into the sides of some planters, and this happened a few times. It wouldn't really surprise me if the building maintenance would occasionally run a concrete drill through the walls of the planters to allow flooded ones to drain out onto the deck. 2 or 3 times the drains were replaced because they were cracked, damaged, or clogged with root systems. @ReverseBias 5 times they painted that ceiling with BM Latex based to stop that leaking issue. Genius idea. *shakes head* ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented (Industrial)) almost every 2-4 years they were doing the same work over and over in the same spots. Would this type of damage accelerate in what is already the structurally weakest part of the deck span? I am going back to the catenary action in slow motion among other things. Could the concentration of the problem have made it the focus of inappropriate remediation which would be particularly damning (and damming). ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Was it raining that day? Water could just have been on the surface. Otherwise yeah I can believe that the sand under the pavers was saturated and as the slab lost integrity and flexed, that water was able to flow down into the hole. > if water comes in above the in-ground waterproofing, and there's a drain issue, that water has no path out of the structure; you can easily have a serious water problem even if your waterproofing is perfect. Given that we know they 'repaired' the slab from below, and there doesn't seem to have even been a waterproof membrane near the top (from the cores and the bits of the slab we can see in the post collapse-pics), that seems pretty likely. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 That day, under .2" if I recall correctly. Workers on the roof did leave early due to weather, but it was also very gusty that day. Rain was heavier the prior days. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented) Rain was heavier the prior days. Demented, where’s the best place to look at the rainfall history, please? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 At the airport, precipitation from 6/10-16 was 1.6” and from 6/17-23 was 1.94”. 1.1” of rain fell two days earlier, on 6/21. It was very gusty prior to the collapse, going all the way back to 6/14. So for two days before the collapse, there was a lot of water sitting in the deck at the same time as the roofers were drilling into key columns and the wind had been gusty for nine days. It rained heavily on 6/24, after the building had already collapsed: 0.58”. https://www.wunderground.com/history/monthly/us/fl... Precipitation 10 0 11 0 12 0 13 0.09 14 0 15 0.79 16 0.72 Total 1.6 17 0.61 18 0.03 19 0 20 0 21 1.1 22 0 23 0.2 Total 1.94 ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 There was a weather outpost a block or so from CTS that had rainfall data I looked at but WeatherUnderground doesn't seem to want to work for past history anymore; keeps using the airport's data but that's good enough for the 2 days leading up (though 3 days before the collapse the contractor who was there inspecting for pool work stated he saw standing water all over the garage level floor. Credit to Miami Harold "The deepest puddle of standing water, according to the contractor, was located around parking spot 78 — an area that building plans show is located directly under the pool deck where in a 2018 inspection report, engineer Frank Morabito had flagged a “major error” in the original design that was allowing water intrusion and causing serious damage to the structural concrete slabs below." Morabito also took photos of the concrete displacement, hairline cracks, and damaged column base in this area and noted them in his 2018 inspection report. Somewhere around K13.1 Rusted, running stains were also shown on the ceiling. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I figure around 91,424.49 gallons of rain water fell on the structure over those two weeks and that is close to 726,843.4 pounds of dead load. That is roughly 7,724.37 pounds per column. Where did all that water go? Why have there been no reports of 1.94 inches of standing water from any of the eyeball witnesses? Did it all soak into the pool deck? (those are rhetorical questions) Concrete is not a sponge capable of absorbing unlimited amounts of water no matter how cracked and poorly maintained it is. Even with the poorly designed drains and the flat pool deck, most of it still flowed down those drains or simply evaporated. Rain water certainly added to the list of reasons for the collapse but calculating the previous weeks rain out to the hundredths of an inch without even trying to determine how long it took to be removed or how much was still there at the time of collapse seems pointless. This building survived 40 years of rain and hurricanes and the last two weeks weather is not going to play a major role. Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (Demented (Industrial)22 Oct 21 12:00) There was a weather outpost a block or so from CTS that had rainfall data I looked at but WeatherUnderground doesn't seem to want to work for past history anymore; I just verified that the second link I provided Maud (Point lake - KFLMIAMI597), works. Scroll to the bottom of the window and then page up to the top of the graph. If one wishes tabular data, click "table". Surfside Florida - KFLMIAMI583 is another... ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Layers don't bend in perfect mathematical parallel. Some incipient dishing in the pool slab in those few days will have increased the volume between whatever layers of the slab were delaminating, and allowed more water to pool in the low spots accelerating the process. All in hundredths of an inch for sure but all heading in the same not-good direction. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Cyclic wetting & drying likely also played a part. Wet sand expands slightly compared to dry sand, and many wetting/drying cycles would increase the fatigue of various other deck components. Maybe not much, but such cumulative damage could be the reason why it collapsed now instead of 10 years ago. Just because something survived an event once, twice, or hundreds of times doesn't mean it'll survive the next time. Remember, what doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable! ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 SFCharlie, if we're posting articles that get what's in concrete wrong when trying to describe it (they forgot the fine aggregate, aka sand) and that adds no new info, I may as well link Grady's video series on concrete, which is both more accurate and more entertaining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOHURuAf5iY&li... ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (Eufalconimorph (Computer)23 Oct 21 02:40) I may as well link Grady's video series on concrete, which is both more accurate and more entertaining. Yes, I enjoy Grady's work very much. I've been a subscriber for a long time. SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Eufalconimorph) Cyclic wetting & drying likely also played a part. Wet sand expands slightly compared to dry sand, and many wetting/drying cycles would increase the fatigue of various other deck components. No. If the sand is unconstrained and free to expand it can do no damage. In this case it was constrained by the concrete below it and the pavers above it. You may think the pavers, being weaker than the concrete, would be damaged first. The reality is that the sand would be damaged first. Sand is used to provide a cushion between the concrete and the brittle pavers because it will absorb movement and protect the pavers from damage, whether from moisture or the greater movement of thermal expansion or freezing like we have in more northern areas. The weakest component will always be damaged first. You can bang your head against a brick wall once, twice, or hundreds of times and the wall will always win. You are correct that this building collapsed when it did because of cumulative damage, but only from things that actually damaged the structural components. Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 The pavers were reported to show cracking in that whole area, shortly after the construction next door started with the pile driving. Cyclic wetting & drying of the sand likely did nothing other than being a source of more and then less weight. Rain, wind, roof work, a heavy impact, vehicles parking on top, vibrations from being a main walk-path from upper parking/front entrance to the pool, construction next door for years, elevators going up and down, lack of rebar, failed waterproofing for various reasons, overtopping of heavy pavers, large bored holes into the slab for the hurricane rated canopy, and column bases in the area getting hit by the assigned parker. It all factored in. Crappy weather on a night with people coming and going, and heavy water intrusion the days before? I have no doubt in my mind that'd be pretty stressful for a known failed slab that needed full replacement and was to have drop panels installed in the columns to help support the weight. The two previous engineers on the job who were fixing this area missed the issues people on this forum caught within a few days of the collapse Or a parapet davit anchored to a Trane load testing the newly installed anchors to 5kpsi broke and tilted the PH forward dumping 36 rolls of tar paper onto the deck. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) Oct. 25, 2021, Update on NIST’s Champlain Towers South Investigation Team co-leads Judith Mitrani-Reiser and Glenn Bell will provide an overview and update on the investigation at the Nov. 8, 2021, public meeting of the National Construction Safety Team Advisory Committee, which will include a public comment period. Details on how to register to attend the virtual meeting can be found in the Federal Register. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 "The update will not provide any conclusions, as the investigation is ongoing, but will introduce a new project that has been added to the investigation, as well as new members of the National Construction Safety Team carrying out this work..................." Link Also, although I have yet to see any good evidence that the foundation was a big factor, NIST has greatly expanded that leg of the investigation. 6 of the 7 new hires are geotechnical. "The new supporting team members are: Dale Bentz, NIST (Materials Science Project) Jonathan Bray, University of California, Berkeley (Geotechnical Engineering Project) Dan Brown, Dan Brown and Associates (Geotechnical Engineering Project) David Frost, Georgia Tech (Geotechnical Engineering Project) Larry Olson, Olson Engineering Inc. (Geotechnical Engineering Project) Dennis Sack, Olson Engineering Inc. (Geotechnical Engineering Project) George Tamaro, Consultant (Geotechnical Engineering Project)" Link ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)(OP)25 Oct 21 23:28) "overview and update on the investigation at the Nov. 8, 2021" Registration info above SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Reverse_Bias) NIST & geotech Possibly they did not invest a huge lot of horsepower into that area initially because there was no immediate evidence to suspect a problem, however people persist in talking about it, and maybe the issue has come up in land sales along that coast, etc. They may have been asked, in other words, to prove a negative and have had to gear up to attempt the impossible. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (AusG) Possibly they did not invest a huge lot of horsepower into that area initially because there was no immediate evidence to suspect a problem, however people persist in talking about it, and maybe the issue has come up in land sales along that coast, etc. They may have been asked, in other words, to prove a negative and have had to gear up to attempt the impossible. Also looks like they're aiming to find every defect and code violation in this building regardless of whether it had anything to do with the collapse. They will likely find hundreds of them that played little or no role in their 5000 page report coming in 2027. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Reverse_Bias) They will likely find hundreds of them that played little or no role in their 5000 page report coming in 2027. Good. They find hundreds of problems to be solved that lead to code and regulation changes that result in money in the pockets of us little people that make those changes happen and build safer buildings. The preliminary report will be shorter and come sooner. Then we can get to work on making life better for all of us. . I just want to be free to drive my forklift wherever I choose. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Bottom of page 4999: "The turtle-friendly lighting, however, was pretty good". Nukeman's point is valid of course; if the exact causes of this disaster had not been there to bring it down now, some of the other violations may well have brought it down later with equivalent calamity. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 The NIST report will focus on the construction and maintenance of this one building and its many flaws. However it may fall short or not even address all the corruption and bureaucratic issues that plagued this building. But its purpose is not just to explain what happened here, but also to serve as a road map to improve the safety of other buildings, both existing ones and those to be built in the future. Many years ago, my apprenticeship instructor actually participated in the code making process for our National Electrical Code. We get a new code book with all of their changes every three years whether we want it or not. I am required to take a class on all of those changes each time a new code book comes out to keep my license valid. The NIST has no power to write new codes or regulations but all the other people that do write those codes will parse every page of that document and debate the merits of the findings and recommendations for many years to come and many rule making cycles. Every accident that has ever occurred at Nuclear power plants or in the nuclear industry has resulted in changes to the way those plants are operated. The Three Mile Island accident resulted in all plants getting more temperature, flow and pressure sensors and instrumentation upgrades for example. The Fukushima Daiichi accident led us to standardized standby emergency equipment stored in bunkers at each plant that could also be sent to any of the other plants if needed. We even learned a lot from the Russian's foolishness at Chernobyl. While it costs a large sum of money and effort to make these changes, the end result should be a net savings both in insurance money and lives saved. I have no issue if a few sea turtles are helped along the way. The world works best when things are kept in balance. Some people complain about the burden of regulations while ignoring the benefits. This collapse happened, in part, because of that type of shortsightedness. (and corruption and stuff...) I just want to be free to drive my forklift wherever I choose. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (Nukeman948 (Electrical)29 Oct 21 13:56) The world works best when things are kept in balance. Nukeman, This is a superbly well thought out post. It deserves more that just a star! SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (SFCharlie) It deserves more that just a star! Thanks Charlie. But I'm not here for the stars or any other fake internet points, and I'm certainly not making any money off of it like some people are. I'm just tired of all the idiots that just want to sit back and watch the world burn and post negativity every time someone steps up with an extinguisher. Keeping balance is one part of the solution, but I also find that if I don't keep pedaling I tend to fall over a lot. I just want to be free to drive my forklift wherever I choose. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 > They will likely find hundreds of them that played little or no role in their 5000 page report coming in 2027 That's fine. As well as trying to find what caused this building to collapse, another (perhaps the main) objective of this investigation is to see if there's anything that we should be worried about with other similar buildings, and if there's common code violations in 80s concrete structures then that might have a bearing on that. Particularly if it's e.g. insufficient rebar or poor slab-column connectivity which isn't directly related to the layout of this particular building. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Topical to things that go creak in the night, and may or may not indicate a problem: https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/mel... There is some audio of the loud creaking that scared a few people as the building swayed in high winds (you have to put up with an ad first I'm sorry). No suggestion the building is at any risk though. details on construction for the interested: https://createdigital.org.au/engineering-australia.... Nicely founded 45m into bedrock ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 In thinking about the various failings in Champlain South, If we remove all those caused by incompetence, greed, and corruption, what is left? No, really. We've gone through 14 pages of this, and it looks like if the building had been built properly at the beginning, it would not have failed. Whether or not there was a maintenance failing later is a bit tricky, since it appears much of the needed maintenance was derived from the aforementioned incompetence, greed and corruption during construction. Leaving out the three horsepersons of the apocalypse I mentioned, can anyone describe possible changes in codes and construction methods that would have minimized the falling-down problem? I do confess the minimal shear walling comes to mind. Being a California lad, I do say: What? Champlain South was structurally inspected by a PE. That would be the PE who designed it. On inspection (if it actually happened), the inspecting PE said the designing PE did a great job. And so did everyone else. Signed off as wonderful! The new proposals we are just reading about want lots of inspections. By PE's. To be paid for by people who do not want bad news. What could go wrong? And I'd still like to know what the$14,000 permit fee went to pay for (46,000 in today's money). spsalso ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 There is still the issue of a possible foundation issue and water intrusion from below leading to corrosion of lower column members. But even that's a stretch for bringing the building down on it's own. Would be interesting to know what the results of the drop hammer testing a couple of months ago are. One of the drops left quite the depression in the slab. More inspection definitely isn't the solution. Competent inspection perhaps, but it's hard to gauge that down here with everything privatized. Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 There are plenty of good questions NIST can probably answer for us at this point without saying providing any conclusions about the collapse. For example, it doesn't take 3 months to do basic concrete cylinder tests hopefully they have done dozens if not hundreds by now. Same with the rebar, if a lot of it was well below spec, NIST should have some data on it. Another question would be if they were able to recover any CTS CCTV video from the collapse or the days before. Or any other video of the collapse other than what's been made public for that matter. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 How's about we do a "failure matrix"? On the X axis, I propose: 1--that incompetence, greed, and corruption thing I brought up 2--"well, that didn't work" or "seemed like a good idea at the time"--commonly accepted things that were supposed to work, but had problems. Here I'm think about discovering that plastic vapor barrier ALSO kept wetness INSIDE, or that non-UV resistant plastic pipe wasn't a good idea outdoors and exposed. 3--a mistake--a non-intentional error in execution--my fave being the Hubbell telescope and the metric/inch conversion thing On the Y axis, I propose: a--buildings already constructed b--buildings not yet constructed It's my impression that NIST might have something productive in the 2b category. Nukeman 948 has suggested (I believe) that NIST, though perhaps commenting on the physical manifestations of 1b, will not come up with anything productive on how to solve that problem. And then on 3b, about all I expect is "try not to make mistakes". And yet, 1, 2, and 3 will all contribute to future building failures; and all three should be considered. Going to the a column, it's different--building's already up. It does appear that buildings give hints of failure early, and so inspections are looking like a good idea. My problem is with having the owning entity pay for it, directly to the inspecting entity. That connection should be broken. The payment for the inspecting entity should come from government, which is supposed to be the one looking out for the common good. And, by the way, was PAID to do that already via inspection fees (if a government was paid to do inspections and they didn't do them properly, are they then accountable for the failures?). I also do wonder about the promise of very long jail terms for any inspecting entity that is "naughty". And doing it. For example, having a second follow-up inspection as a quality-control for the first. So far, I am hugely unimpressed with the various Florida proposals to Do Something. spsalso ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 That no-one has even acknowledged the existence of any better or different video footage is pretty astounding. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Santos81) We’re working on 3d Models to map out as built incorporating all the individual unit changes where applicable to aid in reconstruction. Having viewed the full footage from multiple cameras at 87 Park today, only makes that more difficult and important. #### Quote (Santos81) The Surveillance system at 87 Park captured the entire event from multiple locations at 60fps/4K. It has continuous recording but will not play back at that quality at the Lobby console nor without action event queue markers. The crime scene status is likely holding any of that from being released, but at least more video does exist. Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented) video , OK I missed Santos81's' post. Thanks ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 It was hidden deep in the bowels of roof first, so easy to miss. Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 https://www.miamiherald.com/news/special-reports/s... Found this little gem trying to find this NV5 report. https://ctsreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/202... Attorney client privilege's on geotech data. Ha. https://ctsreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/202... https://ctsreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/202... https://ctsreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/202... Dewatering and shoring plans/permits/whatnot Eh, potato resolution strikes again. 3.2MGD over 90 days for ~285.3MG. King Tide is about 1ft higher than the top of the basement slab. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (Demented (Industrial)31 Oct 21 16:43) King Tide is about 1ft higher than the top of the basement slab. +plus a litl' storm surge.. SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (AusG ) , OK I missed Santos81's' post. Thanks It would still be nice if someone would acknowledge it in an official public statement to the media. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (Demented (Industrial)31 Oct 21 11:33) Quote (Santos81) "We’re working on 3d Models to map out as built incorporating all the individual unit changes where applicable to aid in reconstruction. Having viewed the full footage from multiple cameras at 87 Park today, only makes that more difficult and important." I don't seem to be able to find these quotes anywhere. where are they from? Thanks SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Surfside: Venice-by-the-Sea I like it! spsalso ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (SFCharlie) I don't seem to be able to find these quotes anywhere. where are they from? Page 6 #### Quote (Santos81 16 Jul 21 02:10) Santos81 I’ve seen 8, 9, and 9.5” specified along with multiple elevations for T.O. Basement Roof (Slab). Regardless of that elevation value, T.O Footing is -5’0 from there, with B.O. Footing as specified per pile cap depth. We’re working on 3d Models to map out as built incorporating all the individual unit changes where applicable to aid in reconstruction. Having viewed the full footage from multiple cameras at 87 Park today, only makes that more difficult and important. I just want to be free to drive my forklift wherever I choose. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 That 60 page PDF showing the receiver's filing in court, shows drawings from the engineering company, showing the exact equipment I was standing next to on my September 3 video that I shot at the scene. IT explains all the extraction ports and all the hoses I saw and showed on the video. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (Nukeman948 (Electrical)1 Nov 21 03:48) Page 6 Quote (Santos81 16 Jul 21 02:10) Thanks very much! SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (SFCharlie) Thanks very much! Very much welcome. #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff) ...showing the exact equipment I was standing next to on my September 3 video that I shot at the scene. IT explains all the extraction ports and all the hoses I saw and showed on the video. Yeah, someone already explained how that equipment worked back on September 26th. It looks like they added a weather proof cover for the Diesel unit. The official answer does fill in a few more details. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 https://www.enr.com/articles/52888-private-investi... #### Quote (Need to Dewater the Site Though access was granted Oct. 21, no one was on site until Oct. 26 because of 11.5 in. to 15 in. of water at the site. “Miami-Dade had pulled the plug on the dewatering,” says Kilsheimer. Pumping 24/7 for three days ended Oct. 24. “We tried to get the site nominally dry,” Kilsheimer adds.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcoWcLgjLW0 https://ctsreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/202... THIS CAUSE came before the Court on September 30, 2021 at 9:00 a.m. on the Receiver’s Ore Tenus Motion to Execute Dewatering Permit. #### Quote: 1. The Receiver’s Ore Tenus Motion to Execute the Dewatering Permit requested by the Town of Surfside is GRANTED as set forth herein. The Receiver is hereby authorized to execute the dewatering permit. The Town of Surfside shall be responsible for making sure all governmental regulations and requirements to dewater the property, including the draining the water, are complied with. 2. The dewatering activities which will take place prior to the flying of any drone will be non-destructive and will not draw water below the base of the slab. The Town of Surfside will be paying the costs for dewatering the Property. I wonder, did they think the contractor would just leave the equipment on site running it and assume Miami would foot the bill upon their refusal to pay? Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented) I wonder, did they think the contractor would just leave the equipment on site running it and assume Miami would foot the bill upon their refusal to pay? After the WTC collapsed, it seemed like there was more of a sense of common purpose…the idea that many hands make light work and we’re all in this together. The CTS is strictly adversarial…it’s about blame-casting and litigation. How hard would it have been for Miami-Dade and the second wave investigators to have discussed how to handle the transition of pumping and guidelines for destructive testing in advance? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I seem to get the impression that they didn't want an investigation. Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better? -Dik ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (dik (Structural)6 Nov 21 15:44) I seem to get the impression that they didn't want an investigation. They are Miami-Dade County or Surfside? SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I get that impression as well. Or at the very least, they didn't want an investigation not controlled by them (Surfside). I wonder if anyone's wife threw their phone in the wash this time. Especially with the courts involved, it would have been extremely easy to continue the dewatering. The permit was still active, only a check would likely have been needed. Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I finally uploaded my video today with some drone video that was shot over the site of the collapse on October 26th after they removed all of the dewatering equipment, and the video also talks about that mystery column next to the H beam that so far nobody has been able to figure out what it is I've had many discussions with a lot of people but nobody can come up with an explanation for it. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I'm not sure any government agencies want an investigation. I think it's the way things are done in Florida. Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better? -Dik ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Jeff Ostroff That is perplexing, but pictures can be deceiving. I'm thinking that the H beam probably didn't fall straight down during the collapse and landed a foot or so away from it's original location. I don't know if there was any effort to move it during the clean-up either. Demented is good at drawing lines to correct our perspectives on here, maybe he can realign it. I highly doubt a new column was placed in the middle of the drive thru last year. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I'm still just as lost on that area as I was a month or two ago. The placement makes no sense. Beams 33, 34, and 35 ("H -beam") do appear to be resting at their proper location, but I still doubt this and feel something is shifted around where it shouldn't be. I doubt a new column was placed there in the last year. Temporary shoring, if anything, would have been placed at areas of concern, not building a whole new column in the middle of a drive lane. Even the column Jeff's pointed out, is still not in the location of the random rebar. It all would have had to have been hidden under a topping layer in the basement level. Did this exist? It doesn't appear so, unless there were layers dumped on to level out places with thinner sections. I highly doubt a column punched it's reinforcement into the slab either. Any remote possibility there could be some hidden randomness from the construction crane collapse in this area that could explain it? Though I'm pretty sure that only landed on the forms. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 So far the only reasoning I can come up with that sidesteps all of the logistical obstacles and other reasoning, is that this column was added sometime after Fiorella's garage video was shot in July 2020 and before the collapse date. And that this new column would not have been used to shore up the H beam because it is too far from the age beam to be directly underneath it. But rather this column would have been placed to shore up some part of the lobby floor slab right near the H beam. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (dlk) I'm not sure any government agencies want an investigation. I think it's the way things are done in Florida. Maybe I’m wrong, but I have had the impression that Miami-Dade would like to make it difficult for Surfside to seize the narrative with a KCE report that supersedes the NIST report. Miami-Dade would like Surfside to be culpable, and Surfside would like to defend itself. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 An 18"x24" at minimum column popping up in the middle of a drive lane with no one noticing or complaining. I just can't see it. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 They could put this column there in the middle of the drive lane until people look just drive around it for the time being until we can get the ceiling fixed. As far as where the drone video came from I can't discuss that. There are still certain legalities about flying drones in certain areas we will just leave it at that ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I missed the opening. I only saw the NIST B-roll. If it is who I think it is that's still flying his drone, it's only a matter of time until more than just the local cops pop up at his door demanding he stop. If they were to build an 18"x24" or 24"x24" column there as temporary shoring, that'd leave them with 9ft on either side for travel lanes. Not an impossible drive, but still, why and who would have authorized it? Edit: Also, why here, but not under the other noted failed/failing slab sections? Specifically around the K13.1 region. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 At Champlain Towers East, they have a lot of shoring in the garage right around columns to support the weekend lobby floor. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Can't see any rebar under the red column. Maybe the red column ripped off the blue rebar next to it and it's actually one column at the location of the rebar. Edit: If you zoom in you can see that is the top piece of the red column. The corners are rounded and rebar ears sticking out of it. Either it fell off during the collapse or someone sliced it off and placed it there. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Here's my ideas on the columns in that area, even though Demented (and others) may "highly doubt" my conclusion. Let's start with how the building was designed. In the parking level columns were laid out to give the maximum number of parking spaces and required driveway areas. We also know that the regulations are so strict on the size of parking spaces that they had to use drop panels instead of increasing column size for strengthening for the 40 year rehab. The "A" units, with unencumbered ocean views from several rooms, were the premier units with the exception of the penthouse. But the parking level column at O-8 would be right in the living room area and that wouldn't fly. So they replaced it with a "K" column in the corner of the kitchen of those units. That required the transfer beams bm33, bm34, and bm35 for support and column "K" was planted on bm35. So what can we see in the pictures that can give us some clues as to what happened. The three transfer beams stayed together and seem to have landed just far enough north to clear the columns that supported them. In almost all other column locations there is rebar sticking out of the floor with some concrete remaining at the base between them but not where the mystery column is. There are just a couple of rebars on bm35 where the "K" column once was. Now for the wild and crazy part. We know that the force of a tornado can do strange things like drive a straw into a tree or a 2x4 into a block wall. We know that a Hilti gun can drive a nail into concrete with only a small .22 size powder charge. Now if that "K" column broke free of bm35 with short rebar pieces sticking out and column ties holding it together and was driven into the floor with the force of a 12 story building behind it, I believe that rebar could have have been impaled just enough to remain there. It wouldn't need to go very deep and the column would keep it going straight in like the frame of a Hilti gun guides the nail. It is also unlikely that the NIST people will ever address this small "mystery" for us. Maybe the "K" stands for Krazy. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Jeff, the H in my opinion has fallen very far away from its original location. On the drawing, you can see a couple of spots where there is two columns close to each other. The H has come down sideways with the collapse of the building such that it's maybe an entire columns length away from its original location. It should be located over the laneway between parking. Where cars drive. There is a column in the middle, not present in the basement, extending up the building. The H is designed to support this column which would be blocking cars. I would say the H has moved a column space north and another to the west. So diagonal movement which would fit the collapse of the columns rather then punching shear. They collapsed on an angle from slab. Or during debris removal, the H ended up moving over there as columns were being removed. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (AutisticBez) It should be located over the laneway between parking. Where cars drive. There is a column in the middle, not present in the basement, extending up the building. The H is designed to support this column which would be blocking cars. I believe you have this part correct but if you use the end of the ramp for a starting reference point you may see what we are seeing. Also, the H would be too heavy to lift in one piece with the reach needed for the cranes they were using and it is too large for it to fit between column stubs if they were to try sliding it around on the floor. The video shows the building moving in the opposite direction from what you are suggesting. Edit: I guess it could fit between the column stubs but it would take some very deliberate maneuvering. I just want to be free to drive my forklift wherever I choose. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 @Reverse Bias It is attached at the base, and in the correct location. @Nukeman948, I don't doubt rebar punching into the slab at all. My only issue is the size of the cage. A K column is 12"x24". The red base column, if in correct location, would be a column F 16"x16", to the right of that a column L 12"x24", and at the south end of beam 35, a column C 16"x16". There's also a 36" safety cone with a 15.25"x15.25" base near for comparison too. For that to be a K, it would have had to have fallen towards the ocean 4'5" or so. Did that fall towards the ocean while everything else fell away? Potentially a C(O10), L(P8), or D(O6) column instead? I feel one of these hitting on a diagonal could at least leave a similar pattern of rebar in the slab. I've seen some other C columns blown open similarly. @AutisticBez If the beams have moved, they've moved the associated columns with it, including the one for parking spot #19 which is still standing on the slab. It's hard to tell what damage to the H beam is from the recovery process. Beam 33 appears to be completely broken off with exceptions of the rebar. It definitely could have broke or shifted in recovery, or somehow even completely flipped upside down though unlikely. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented) I don't doubt rebar punching into the slab at all. My only issue is the size of the cage. So your main question is which column punched into the slab based on the size of that group of rebar. While all the columns you mentioned are possible candidates, the K seems to be the closest to the point of impact. After it broke free of the H beams, those beams could have deflected it's direction of fall or the buildings rotation just before it fell may have steered it to that point. Many of the other columns broke at each floor but remained joined by the rebar giving them a linked sausage appearance and for one to break off cleanly enough to punch into the floor seems much less likely. Also the K column's 24 inch dimension was oriented in the north-south direction but some of the rebar may not have remained stuck in the floor after the cleanup. I'm still pretty open to it being some other column if better evidence emerges. I just want to be free to drive my forklift wherever I choose. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Briefing map from July shows the H beams in the same location that they are in now, and also shows the "mystery" column. So it appears to not have moved much when it fell, or to have been moved. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 It's weird that none of the survivors or their relatives, from either wing, seem to be following these threads or posting remarks. No comments even on youtube videos. The survivors at this point are probably under "gag" orders from their lawyers, but heck most would know how to create a fake acct and use a VPN to make comments etc. The lady from 611 survived and the #17 parking space was hers... someone, her son even...could ask her had a new column been placed near the vicinity of hers etc. Regarding the mystery rebar, could the remnants of the supported column have still been attached to the top of the vertical section and perhaps they cut it off and just set it adjacent to the structure? Because the base of that rebar is very dark and black looking compared to all other column bases? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 The base is darker there due to it being wet. https://www.nist.gov/video/b-roll-video-reel-2-cha... For higher res, 1:50 time stamp in the NIST video. @Nukeman948 I agree it is possible for the E side of beam 35 to deflect the column back. Especially so if the beam assembly twisted off it's columns before that section collapsed, which it may have done. It's unfortunate all of the live streams of the recovery/rescue efforts have been deleted. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I just don't see how they built an extra column after 2020 and kept it a secret. Every person who went into the garage would have seen it. There'd be a long digital paper trail.. plans, permits, certifications, cost estimates, bills ect... ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Well we know that they had applied for parking relocation permits to begin the shoring up of the garage. Maybe the shoring up was already in progress in certain areas of the garage, and using the typical metal braces were not going to be strong enough to hold up that H beam, so they had started placing a new column there? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Maybe someone can clear up the mystery by examining the markings on the left-behind rebar. "Someone" could be NIST, maybe. Or "someone" else. spsalso ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Reverse_Bias) I just don't see how they built an extra column after 2020 and kept it a secret. Every person who went into the garage would have seen it. There'd be a long digital paper trail.. plans, permits, certifications, cost estimates, bills ect... Not to mention no Engineer anywhere in the world would put a column in the middle of a driveway only 4.5 feet from a perfectly good K column and transfer beams but supporting nothing, and only supported by a slab with no pilings at all underneath it. Didn't Happen. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 The column wouldn't have been supporting beam 35, if that were the case. If there were a case where they needed to construct a new concrete column because other standards of shoring would not work, I find it hard to believe the building would not have been evacuated and serious evaluation would have been underway, long before the collapse. Not so much as a peep from anyone about a new emergency column; not even from the people complaining about the tar smell. Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) I must be stupid, but I just don't understand what the mystery is? SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)) I just don't understand That "H" is resting quite north of where it is in the drawing, unless I'm stupid. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Whenever someone makes the claim like this about the column falling eight feet and impaling into the garage floor, you forget that there is zero damage on the floor where there should have been craters or something else if it had impaled into the floor but there is no damage. These rebar rods look like they were intentionally built up out of that concrete floor like it was done by somebody in the last 12 months, since Fiorella shot her video inside the garage in July 2020, showing no column exists where that mystery column is. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff) These rebar rods look like they were intentionally built up out of that concrete floor like it was done by somebody in the last 12 months... Who would build a column where there is no pile to support it? What could they have been trying to support with that column? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 IF...they were to build this column sometime between Fiorella's video in July 2020, and the time of the collapse, the only reason I can think of is they were adding a temporary shoring of the lobby level floor right near the beam, or possibly they saw something wrong with the H-beam like deflection, and maybe the bottom of the H-beam was under tension so they would build a column to support the bottom of the middle of the beam as a shoring. Now, what if someone built this column without pulling permits? There might not always be a paper trail, and Surfside is missing documents. Why would the column be built without a pile under it? People are stupid. Maybe it was temporary to help distribute part of loads from above. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (zebraso (Mechanical)8 Nov 21 02:08) That "H" is resting quite north of where it is in the drawing, Yes, (Well, a few feet Northwest, I think. see Auri's photo from 15 Jul 21 00:30 in Pt 6, reposted by Demented (Industrial)7 Nov 21 18:07 above) ... and the "H" has dropped several feet from the garage ceiling to the slab. It has debris under it. The columns it was supported by, are still vertical. It must have moved off the columns to get to the floor. SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) Just to beat a horse... SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Yes, it appears the H-beam moved 12" to the north off the columns to slide down to the floor. And still does not explain the mystery column, centered about 2 feet east of the H-Beam coming out of the garage floor. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)) Just to beat a horse... Well. I don't know. I think I'm seeing what Autistic was referring to. I'm talking more like 15-20 ft. whatever the column spacing is to the north (a row of columns). The H appears to lie in line with the bottom of the ramp which is not where it is in the drawings. As Autistic said: "very far away from its original location". ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I think a lot of you are misreading the floorplan, especially if you use the drawings SFCharlie submitted above. The line that you think is the bottom of the ramp on that drawing is NOT the bottom of the ramp! The drawing shows the ramp in abbreviation mode, meaning it is not showing you the ramp continuing to the end, the bottom of the ramp really extends down to be in line with the north side of the H-Beam. The H-Beam did not move. You misinterpreted where the bottom of the garage ramp is. Remember, SFCharlies posted floorplan above is not a garage level, it is a ground-level drawing, so it only shows the ramp going down halfway, not all the way. Just like architects renditions of stairs don't show them going all the way down to the bottom. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff) These rebar rods look like they were intentionally built up out of that concrete floor like it was done by somebody in the last 12 months, since Fiorella shot her video inside the garage in July 2020, showing no column exists where that mystery column is. Does anyone know if there were any Black Friday sales on columns in the area last holiday season? The plot thickens!!! ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 What's the matter Florida Boy? Run Down Condo's ruining you Property's Value? We now have a new product for the Elite Condo Owner: "Temporary Reinforced Concrete Shoring Columns"! It's Temporarily Permanent!! Buy one today! Shore up that lackluster beam that's always letting you down! Don't get left behind with Old Fashioned Pilings!!! It's "new AND improved"!! No need to wait 28 days for it to cure to rated strength!!! It's Concrete! The most Permanent Temporary Thing EVER!! No permits necessary!!! (It's Florida Folks!!!!) Just put it somewhere near whatever you want to support and call it "Close Enough"!!!! Build on top of the Everglades!, Put them in your Drivway! "Who Cares"!!!!! Don't wait, CALL NOW! Our Operators are Standing Buy!! For a limited time you can use the discount code:"DURRR"!! ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Zebraso Most of the plans don't show that the ramp extended a full parking space beyond the stairwell, that has thrown me off a few times too. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)) The line that you think is the bottom of the ramp on that drawing is NOT the bottom of the ramp! Got it. Thanks. I will re-calibrate. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Exactly @optical98, I tell everyone to look at the part of Fiorella's video that I showed in this video, and you'll see it shows the ramp extended beyond the stairs to become space #14, and I also showed you on her screenshot of the garage that the H-Beam is inline with the bottom of the ramp. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Another interesting tidbit of information I just doug up by pouring through the building perits at Champlaint Tower South. Several of the condo units in the "11 stack" had their AC's replaced this year: Unit #511 A/C Penthouse 11 Unit #711 New Tiles Unit #211 A/C Unit #311 A/C ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) Ok Ok Finally, Dawn breaks over Marble Head. So, my ghost column is on the first floor plan. So now I'm trying to understand, was it attached to the top of the "H" beams? If so, where did it go? Shouldn't there be some rebar on the top of the "H" where it was attached? Now I'm sure I'm more confused than ever. Sorry everyone. Thanks for straightening me out. SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)) Dawn breaks over Marble Head. Do I have your permission to use that phrase? You're doing pretty darn good compared to where I was. I was actually ready to say you found the column. I love a good mystery. It might be time for Rod Serling. edit: just thought a little closer look at the rebar sticking out might help. Not so sure that the dark color is just because it's wet. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Okay, I was wrong previously. Look, it's really up to you Jeff to find a permit somewhere in which someone drilled a massive hole into the foundation and installed a magical column sticking up in the middle of the lane. I don't think anyone is putting a column up in the middle there. Is there even a PIF foot underneath that? Look, it's really very simple, you have a column in the middle of the H beam, and the only thing holding it up is the H beam, and the H beam has dropped down the foundation. So, the column is going to drop as well. Perhaps the column punched through the foundation? I can't find any other logical conclusion. Does anyone here disagree with the concept of a column shearing through the foundation? Really, this topic is pretty dead. What is the mystery? The column PIF'ed it's way through the foundation. It's not like the foundation is going to be super strong in the middle. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 At best, that area would be maybe 2ft from the corner of a cap. Jeff, are you just speculating like the boom lift, or are you just the only onw who knows about this temporary shoring column here because you're the one who did it? I've seen some crazy stuff in this area, but never anything quite that crazy. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (AutisticBez ) Is there even a PIF foot underneath that? If you read my posts (not the tongue in cheek ones) I already pointed out that there is no PIF or any other kind of pile in that location. #### Quote (AutisticBez) Perhaps the column punched through the foundation? Yes, as I mentioned before and that's what Demented and I have been discussing. We do believe a column punched through or became embedded in the slab. (it's a slab there, the plies are the foundation and the columns should be centered on the pile cap, not 2 feet away) Maybe there is a language barrier here. Don't wait, CALL NOW! Our Operators are Standing Buy!! ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I'm struggling to see how a column either drives itself so perfectly into a basement slab that no cracks or deformation or protruding bits of its concrete are visible, or could go unremarked and undocumented as a bizarre new construction. Both seem on the outer edge of possibility but I guess the punching is possible. Which column though? The column supported by beams #33-35 is a type K, 12"x 24"with 10 of #10 rebar in a 2x5 array. Those practiced at counting tar-paper roofing rolls should have a go at this, but I count more than 10, and to my eye arranged 4x3 making it closer to a type C. I can offer no explanation as to what it's doing there. The nearest type C is at O10 only a half-space move away but but this creates many other discrepancies. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 @SFCharlie, As I stated in the video Charlie, that mystery column on the 1st floor is what we call a floating column. It went straight up to the penthouse level but did not go from the first floor down to the garage floor to keep the east West driving lanes of the garage clear. So the whole purpose of this H beam then is to take that load from that floating column on the first floor through the penthouse floor and distribute it to the other four columns on the floor of the garage. as I mentioned in the video, I did not agree with that strategy using the H-Beam without increasing the sizes of the other four columns first due to the unbelievable amount of weight that they are expected to carry compared to their neighboring columns in the garage. Now following that mystery column up from the first floor to the penthouse I still don't understand why they needed it but it does show up in the corner of the kitchens and all of the “12 stack” oceanfront unit A condos such as unit 112, unit 212, etc. The column appears on the northeast corner of the kitchen although I still don't see why they are needed. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Yes everybody is right to bring up the PIF required under a column AS-BUILT! A building when it is built should have a pile under every single column going all the way down to the bedrock. But all I'm saying here, in this case, is that there is no logical reason for this column to be on the garage floor right now especially since we saw in Fiorella’s video last year that it was not there so to me with the evidence we have so far until we are proven wrong, I can only assume this column was added in the last 12 months. Only this scenario makes sense right now given the facts we have now. Now you're talking about my theory doesn't make sense for them to add the column without a pile beneath it. Yes that is true! BUT… maybe it was added by somebody that didn't know what they were doing which is common down here in Florida, or it was added as temporary support until the pool deck work is completed. This is the only explanation I could come up with that aligns up with all of the evidence in the photos that we have seen so far. If somebody can come up with another scenario of how this column got there when it is not in the original plans over a pile. Please let us all know. Bottom line: there was no column there on the garage floor in July 2020 video, now there is one. How did it get there? Not likely pierced from a falling column above, it’s too perfect, and no punch through damage or craters on the concrete foundation. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff) The column appears on the northeast corner of the kitchen although I still don't see why they are needed. The K column and the two oddball columns at N-6 and O-6 are positioned where they could give the needed support for the A condo units while still being hidden "architecturally". Don't wait, CALL NOW! Our Operators are Standing Buy!! ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff) Now you're talking about my theory doesn't make sense... The only load bearing column near the mystery column's location is the K column. If anyone wanted to "shore up", for any reason, they would put it directly underneath the K column. It would give support where needed and not block the drive any worse than where you believe it was built. You are the one that brought up this theory and you can't admit that there are far too many flaws in your theory for it to remain a viable theory. Edit: Shoring is always done with temporary members because shoring is never to be used as a permanent solution. Reinforced concrete is a permanent solution that would never be used for shoring. Don't wait, CALL NOW! Our Operators are Standing Buy!! ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 No one in their right mind would build a column there. Close but not accurate. Pretty sure there were pile spacing changes after the drawing I referenced. ^Ha. Close, dumb dumb. Yeah, the pile cap spacing is even further than it appears due to some messed up scaling of one dimension. I needed 2 hands to count it seems. Edit: Not exact time link, but close. This animation was posted back in one of the earlier parts. Although not completely identical to what happened, if you look through it does appear as though in at least a simulated world, the K column could be knocked off towards that area and driven into the slab. https://youtu.be/HPwJ0JvTcg8?t=249 Edit2: CTS will be discussed starting around 12:55PM today. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/10/... Edit 3: Fixed. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (AutisticBez (Computer)8 Nov 21 09:30) Perhaps the column punched through the foundation? ...as plausible as any I've heard... SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (AusG (Petroleum)8 Nov 21 13:46) I'm struggling to see how a column either drives itself so perfectly into a basement slab that no cracks or deformation or protruding bits of its concrete are visible, or could go unremarked and undocumented as a bizarre new construction.,,, but I guess the punching is possible. Yes, it is a reach, but... #### Quote: Which column though? ??? the "ghost column, I mentioned in my apology??? SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Yeah, I'm going back to my original theory that "pictures are deceiving" and that the mystery rebar looks like it was cut from somewhere and sat adjacent to the H beam, because the bottom looks black and burnt, not just wet. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented) Ha. Close, dumb dumb. Yeah, the pile cap spacing is even further than it appears due to some messed up scaling of one dimension. I needed 2 hands to count it seems. Anyone that can laugh at their own errors, make corrections and move on is A-OK in my book. Once again you prove to be the exception to the stereotype of Florida Man. I hope you get rich off the royalties from your Patented Beam Stretcher™. Don't wait, CALL NOW! Our Operators are Standing Buy!! ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Yeah I'm not having this extra column either. It doesn't make sense that no-one would have reported it, or that there are no permits for its construction. You don't shore by building a complete new column with rebar like that anyway. (The proposed shoring and improvements to column/slab connections in the 2019 report weren't extra columns either.) And it doesn't even make sense from a load perspective. I can buy the "a column that was supported by that H beam punctured the floor slab", though it does also seem unlikely given that there isn't obvious deformation in the floor slab nearby. But then again we know a whole building dropped on that slab and it survived, so maybe that's not so impossible. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 A relatively thin slab too. Only sizeable impact mark on it seems to be from some of the dynamic pile testing. Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented (Industrial)) A relatively thin slab too. By the fact that water is collecting there, the "mystery" could be that it is depressed and the cracks and punch shear are also obscured by the water. I think I see a large crack radiating out towards the east anyway. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 How thick was the garage slab there? What was the reinforcement? Considering how the pencils poked right through the pool slab… ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Assuming this location is like the rest of the slab, thickness there is roughly 6.5". It should be 9", but that only appears to be the case in areas where the ~2.5" step has been seen on the slab. Reinforcing is some #4's with 12" spacing going both ways. Easily enough room for some #10's with a building behind them to find it's way through, if that is even in the realm of possibilities here. 4kpsi spec'd, but the slab is being treated as cracked 3kpsi which is a no brainer. I sure hope that 2" topping on the pool deck wasn't meant for the basement. Use your imagination to fill in the blanks. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Is it not strange that there is more rebar poking out of the floor than out of the top center of the H where that K column was supposed to be attached with 10 of #10 all spliced in? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 A question for those of you following this thread. Quote from post above: "The Miami Herald describes Morabito’s dilemma in this archived piece. Engineer’s insurers argue they shouldn’t be on hook for millions in Surfside condo collapse.." Evidently, Morabito had general commercial liability and umbrella coverage, but that coverage specifically exempted design and engineering work. I would assume that meant they had either separate policies or separate insurers that furnished errors & omissions coverage, yet several minutes of googling stories on them doesn't show that to be case anywhere, and several articles talk like Morabito is just on the hook if those particular polices are not applicable. Anyone know if there was separate coverage for the engineering aspect? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 You would not see that first-floor floating column attached directly to the top of the beam. Remember that each beam connects to the bottom of the first-floor slab which is likely 9 1/2 inches thick. So really what you're looking for is the first slab to see how that floating column would have attached that slab, not directly to the H-Beam ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (AusG (Petroleum)) Is it not strange Strange also might be that there was a floating column and no sign of any splice on the beam? Apparently the beam slipped out from under it. Also from what elevation was the no. 10 that is seen originally? How deep could the building drive it before it got sheared off? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Remember that the floating K column was 12x24, but in reality, it was only 12" in the direction of the shearing forces, so it broke like a toothpick and ripped right out of that 9" first-floor slab. Remember, the column does not attach directly to the top of the H-Beam, it attaches to the 1st floor slab. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Depending on how the plans were read, that K column should have had dowels extending 3" or 9.25" into beam 35. That lobby level slab likely crumbled when the beam assembly twisted. Could have made it easier for the column to escape and slide down beam 35, if that is actually what happened. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Disappointed on NIST press conference it's basically just a plan to investigate. In the mean time I think Mike Bells video gave a somewhat satisfying explanation. NIST final report is probably just going to be a much longer more detailed version of it. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Did nits answer any q&A from public commentary? Is there going to be a link to the video of this online meeting? I think it's a travesty to force us to register in advance by 11/3, which I missed, when it should just be a live feed like it was when we had the 2018 Marjory Stonemean Douglas Shooting Commission Meetings. At least I was sable to secure their presentation and download them. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Horrifying question...could they have added that column and missed the supporting beam by a foot or two? Edit - I'm talking about the column that was to be supported, not the hypothetical one in the garage. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 @optical99 no, you don't add a column and miss by that much. IF they added a column like this one, it looks to be about 2 feet east of the middle of the H, so doubtful they were trying to shore up the H-Beam. More likely, the column was added to shore up the first-floor level, probably under the living room of Unit #112. But still fairly close to that floating K column. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 What advantages are there to this theoretical temporary concrete column that conventional steel supports cannot offer? Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I'm under the impression a joint between RC structural elements is a designed and properly fabricated item with rebar extended in all the directions that concrete is to be poured, including upwards into the subsequent column. Having the foot of a column simply butted on a slab with no splice and/or potentially offset from the correct location is indeed horrifying and I'm expecting those who know how things are done (i.e. not me) to find it unlikely. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I can't think of any advantages to the column, as it is right in the middle of the east-west lane travel in the garage, although you can drive around it. So if they added this column, it would have to be for something serious, and also they would have to know there is no PILE or PIF under it. Not that is would be supporting 12 floors of columns directly over it, I suspect it would be for deterioration of the garage ceiling over that spot ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Jeff, if this issue were serious enough to warrant the concrete column be cast to support the failing slab above, wouldn't the area still need temporary shoring of a more rapid method, such as the conventional steel tubular slab post shores, for the duration that the concrete is curing? Why here, and not under the sections of deck that were in a much poorer state and at more of a risk of collapse? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Yes! I would have used metal wrenching telescopic shoring poles, with 4x4 wood posts up against the ceiling as most traditional people do. Maybe they thought they needed a 12x24 or a 24x24, still can't tell the intended size of the column, much less if someone was really trying to plant a column there.. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) I don't know how constructing a column would be useful supporting the slab? If the slab was in distress, wouldn't the column just create more of a stress point? ...doesn't seem like a good way to reinforce a slab? SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Charlie yes it could, but not if you incorporate a capital and a drop panel at the top of the column ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 A far better method for a temporary shoring at that location would be a wide steel beam or two spanning the drive with steel columns sitting on the pile caps right beside the concrete columns. Less stress on the upper slab and could be braced by the existing columns. Solid foundation support, far less traffic disruption and only a days site work if you prefab at the shop. Concrete at that location would require several days completely blocking the drive with a 28 day curing time and the shoring required would be as much work as just using steel beams. Don't wait, CALL NOW! Our Operators are Standing Buy!! ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) Yes, Operator, I'd like two steel columns and a wide steel beam or two. Thank you! SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Typical example of the problem with South Florida condo's--and Champlain Towers... https://wsvn.com/news/help-me-howard/unsafe-elevat... (notice the age of the condo board president) Sound familiar? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I do have to ask: What floor does the condo board president live on? spsalso ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 4th, of a different building. Because you know, FL is great. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented (Industrial) ) Why here, and not under the sections of deck that were in a much poorer state and at more of a risk of collapse? I hate to suggest this, but perhaps the thinking was that if the pool deck collapsed, the outcome was likely to be some crushed cars. Whereas if supports under the building let go..... ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I just cannot wrap my head around why support for the living room would be needed there. The resident of that unit has sued in the past for water intrusion due to cracks in the walls that were not properly taken care of by the lovely folks behind the first few concrete restoration/waterproofing projects. I doubt such a litigious resident would have been silent on this matter. Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Hey @SFCharlie, our favorite immature troll was in here the last few days studying our comments and uploaded a very slanderous video mentioning you and I. HE bad mouths me and other channels yet he keeps on hijacking our videos into his channel for “commentary” to game YouTube ranking algorithm. Then he dupes clowns trolls believing his pied piper nonsense, lies about everybody, calls other engineers names, calls them stupid, called Allyn Killshceimer stupid too, a non-class act. His video last night he failed to prove what was wrong about my statements here and on the video, he tried to, he looked us all up here on this thread, looked at my video, he looked back on the floor plans and you could hear him growl in frustration cause he could not prove me wrong. And then he moved on to SF Charlie to try to make you look bad figuring you are an easier target. He lies about my Car Buying Tips videos, falsely claiming I covered up stuff to make a dealer look guilty. He keeps complaining about why he gets no views and why he thinks YouTube has ghosted his channel. How many people do you think are going to keep watching videos when all he does is troll other people's videos and comment on them and whine that it’s not getting any views, and then put up videos of his cat licking himself ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Someone pass me the popcorn. Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented) Someone pass me the popcorn. I hope someone can post a program so I know who(and what)we are talking about. Don't wait, CALL NOW! Our Operators are Standing Buy!! ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 You shouldn't have posted the link to his video, why give the clown any fame. He called Allyn Killshceimer stupid. He still lies in his videos about me, saying I put up fake car stickers and covered-up info on the car dealer sticker to prove my point in a video. All I did was blur out the name of the dealer to protect them from embarrassment. He watches 3 seconds of someone's video, then lies about them. He is not important enough to give him an audience. He keeps stealing our ideas here. He posted a video today showing the exact same analysis I did to prove where the H-Beam was, then tells people I'm not worth mentioning and that he does not bother watching my videos. Yet he keeps hijacking them to make his videos, LOL. Then he sends all his minions over to leave rude nasty comments on my videos. not even close to being any type of professional. Just an evil-hearted person. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented) He likes you Nukeman Whoa, that scatterbrained moron's videos are painful to watch. I think I started to watch one of his vids once but couldn't have lasted more than about 5 minutes. From what I could tell he was wrong about 75% of the time but it was so hard to follow his "train of thought". And then he couldn't even read our names right. Certainly not on my Christmas list. Jeff, doesn't youtube have some kind of conflict resolution process that you could use? Demented, I agree you should consider removing the link, you can report your own post and I think will make it be gone. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Sometimes you just have to ignore the man yelling at the pigeons, even if an ounce of sense occasionally leaks out. I've removed the link. The man is a bumbling idiot whom I'm sure most of you can find from that description. At least those of you who've been around these parts for a few years. Either way, I really don't think this is the place for this. Just report the dude on youtube and move on. And who cares if someone comes here and steals ideas on anything. Only awards I see here are silly pink stars that mean nothing, not youtube popularity awards, so why bother caring? Let him yell at his pigeons. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Wow, that was a bit uncomfortable seeing our commentaries on YT... and I have no idea what his point was besides his affinity and adoration for "nukum", lmao! ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Optical98) that was a bit uncomfortable seeing our commentaries on YT... and I have no idea what his point was.. I agree and it seems that his only point was trolling and self promotion. Being known for a bit of trolling myself, perhaps I should try to keep that in check...somewhat... Sig lines are for trolls. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I watched that guy only because he was one of the few discussing the collapse on youtube. He's a narcissist, If you say something about the collapse he disagrees with you then he calls you a moron and a fraud. If you say something about the collapse he agrees with then he accuses you of poaching him. No wonder he only gets along with cats. Also that "magic column" got there during or after the collapse. The hole in the floor filled with sand/dust when it flooded, that's why the slab looks intact. Nobody came and built an extra column. End of discussion. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 @reverse Bias, if it did impale from above, I have asked 100 different commenters on my video about this, why is there no damage on the floor? There should be some type of cracks or crater or something, but there is noting right up to the rebar as far as I can tell. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff) The exact question I answered in my post Please read the post again. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff) ...why is there no damage on the floor? There should be some type of cracks or crater or something, but there is noting right up to the rebar as far as I can tell. There is simply not enough conclusive evidence to prove nor disprove the impact theory. I'll just point out a few things we can probably agree on: The demolition crew mentioned that when drilling for their charges the concrete seemed very soft. The aggregate used was a local limestone that is relatively soft. The rebar that impacted may not have needed to penetrate very deep to remain in place. None of the pictures that we have access to show a close up of this area so it seems premature to claim that there is zero damage to the floor. What we have here is a total lack of applicable pixels. Water/sand/dust obscure our view. Let it go until more evidence comes in. Sig lines are for trolls. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I'm working on getting closeups. Might drive down there next week and see if they let me in. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)11 Nov 21 00:13) our favorite immature troll was in here the last few days studying our comments and uploaded a very slanderous video I wish I had realized it was only "Construction Engineering & Analysis" ( & Wedding Photography ) , I wouldn't have bothered... (I doubt he's a licensed "Construction Engineering" or ever was or even has the qualifications) SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 What we really need is a hint from Santos81. Column impaled? Knock once for yes mate, twice for no. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 The column planting itself there theory doesn't work for me. I ~might~ be able to believe that under certain circumstances a column falling end first with its rebar sticking out of it could push the rebar into the floor slab. But, I have a very hard time believing that the column could then break apart off the rebar (or be broken off the rebar during then clean up and demolition) leaving all the rebar sticking out of the floor as if it was purposely concreted into the floor. I too would say it's been beaten to death already like most other topics so drop it until some better evidence is released. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 2 Ethics among Professionals. I chased one guy away from here for what I considered to be unethical behavior. He was an actual Engineer with Youtube videos and his first post here was bashing another Youtube Engineer and promoting his own videos. Then he bashed me on another website instead of engaging me here. I never engaged him on that website and I eventually banned myself from there and the other guy stopped posting here. It doesn't always work out that way. This is an open forum and there are no requirements for anyone to prove they have Engineering credentials and anyone on the internet can read our posts. Most of the real Engineers are staying away and waiting for the official reports to come out. They are not engaging in pointless speculation. Most of the guys still posting are trying to understand what happened and filling in time with humor in between the tiny bits of information from news reports. People with no ethics will try every trick they can think of to drag you into their own drama and move the discussion to other locations where they feel they have the advantage of sympathetic minions. We don't need that here. Often the best way to deal with those people is to make your point very clearly and then totally ignore them. If they show signs of returning to civil discussion I am usually open to a normal discussion. This latest drama should not continue. We know who is the problem and I seldom waste my time on Youtube anyway. We can't clean up the cesspool that parts of Youtube are becoming but we can all do our part in improving the way we treat each other here. Don't take yourself too seriously, no one else does. Your ego doesn't matter to others. Understand that if you don't apply some logic to your ideas, someone will point out the flaws. Be willing to accept that you may be wrong. When someone points out flaws in your ideas, don't take it personally. Try to help others understand what happened from an Engineering aspect. Sig lines are for trolls. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (LionelHutz) The column planting itself there theory doesn't work for me. This is where I'm at on this particular issue as well. Although no reasonable explanation makes itself evident. It's pretty damn weird. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Looking closely at the photo zebraso posted, it almost appears there is a dark colored square at the base of the protruding rebar. The rebar is also discolored (dark) just above the water. Is there any conceivable possibility that the pieces of rebar might be welded to a steel plate which is now at/under the surface of the puddle? Perhaps something that fell from some floors above? Given the state of repairs on the building, it seems easier to believe that someone tried some sort of jury rigged patch than that either the rebar managed to impale itself in the slab, or that a column appearing in the middle of a drive lane was never commented on. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I know a few people have mentioned that the rebar coming out of the floor of that mystery column appears to be an area that was patched up. Although I don't see how people can see that through the water that's at the bottom. And I think a lot of these lines that are tricking people's minds into seeing patch lines are really just reflections of all of the rebar coming up out of the ground reflecting from the water. The reason I don't really accept the fact that the K column could have impaled into the concrete, is that there should be a lot of floor damage would have happened, cracks in the concrete floor or craters or something but not just perfect perfect rebar rods going into the ground. I still think the only scenario that fits the whole bit of Current evidence that I showed in my video, is that sometime between July 2020, and the time of the collapse somebody built a column there, It wasn't to support the H-beam because it is too far away from the H beams 2_3 FEET so likely it was there to support the garage ceiling next to the H-beam. Why they would have done it? Who knows. Handyman special maybe? I searched the Surfside website and found no permits for it in the last 24 months. I think handyman special because there are no piles below it to support it So it might have just been a quick fixe type of thing. Temporary shoring. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Jeff Ostroff) Temporary shoring That's the thing... pouring a column would be a very expensive, time consuming, and extremely labor intensive method of providing temporary shoring. Not to mention that it would be highly ineffective. I know there's idiots out there but someone doing something that stupid is, for me, a bridge too far. From all the photos and video, it seems pretty clear that the location of the H beam, surrounding columns, ramp edge, etc are at this point pretty clearly known to the group, so I don't see how this could be a case of ALL of us mis-identifying something. If the column punching from above theory was correct, that also would not explain the missing slab section (ie if this column punched through from above, where is the little square of slab that punched out, along with its horizonal bar?) which would in theory be underneath that column, between it and the deck it impacted. There's also the fact that the lengths of that bar seem to indicate the top of a column - not the bottom. Unless this bundle of rebar was much taller at one point and was cut during demolition. I'm not sure if we know either way at this point. My hope is that at some point NIST or whomever will address the presence of that mysterious bundle of bar. But I'm not optimistic that they will. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (Nukum948 (Electrical)11 Nov 21 14:00) Got it! SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Omgs *snerks* ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 @Debirlfan Unlikely it's rebar welded to a plate. If it's gotten that black from welding heat, I wouldn't expect a weldment like that to survive with rebar still attached to a plate. I'm on the fence about a column punching through as well. It's rather odd, especially since it appears to only be in one location. The lack of blue or red markings on it also compounds to my confusion. @Swinny, there are other column bases with similar lengths of rebar on the basement level, so it may not necessarily be a top of a column. Kilsheimer and crew have more photos of the slab. The ones we've been privileged to see are just some quick iPhone 11 photos taken rapidly as they marched around the site in about 50 minutes. Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Demented) there are other column bases with similar lengths of rebar on the basement level, so it may not necessarily be a top of a column. Now that you mention it... I was previously just looking at the closeup. Looking at other pics where other former column bases are visible, the length of the rebar in the mystery column does appear to be in a similar range as the ones nearby. In the closeup I was thinking it looked like the rebar left sticking out of the slab was way too long to be the lab bars which would extend through the joint with the slab.. but that was a minor error on my part. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 All those sticky up lengths of rebar are at the length the demo team cut them off at, I think. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (SwinnyGG) ... pouring a column would be a very expensive, time consuming, and extremely labor intensive method of providing temporary shoring. Not to mention that it would be highly ineffective. I know there's idiots out there but someone doing something that stupid is, for me, a bridge too far. I agree with all those points 100%. We can also probably agree that Florida does have some of the worlds stupidest handymen to even suggest putting the worlds stupidest column in the the worlds stupidest location for the worlds stupidest reason, whatever that may have been. However, Florida is also home to some of the tightest skinflints that ever pinched a penny and they are all sitting on those condo boards clutching their purse strings with an unmatched death grip. Somebody would have had to approve of this before it happened. To my way of thinking, the bridge too far is believing anyone would approve of such an ill conceived idea as a useless "mystery column in the driveway" and then be willing to pay cash so there would be no paper trail. That bridge too far was a wooden bridge that has been soaking in kerosene for 100 years in a location that has more lightening strikes than anywhere else in the world. It's "unmatched" if you will. This horse is dead. Beat it. Sig lines are for trolls. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 Is the mystery column visible in the garage walkthrough video from 2020? I get so twisted around I can't tell. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (JR97 (Mechanical)12 Nov 21 17:58) Is the mystery column visible in the garage walkthrough video from 2020? I get so twisted around I can't tell. It is visibly not there. See: Champlain Tower South: visiting unit 611 on July 17, 2020 - Surfside FL condo collapse at 5:05 (you will have to pause or type "k" as soon as it turns to the end of the building, or the video will end.) edits in italics. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) Nukum948's well-thought-out post is correct. When someone publicly miss-represents their credentials, I feel it is necessary to point it out. Several of you have questioned the plausibility of the column impaling itself in the slab. I would like to draw an analogy to a piece of straw or a 2 by 4 impaling itself in a palm tree while leaving the tree intact. This seems implausible, but has happened during a hurricane. Yes, there was no hurricane, but the energy of a thirteen-story-high column, driven down one story without support, by gravity, would be very high. The column may have driven itself intact into the slab, but then disintegrated or have been demoed by excavator after that, leaving only the rebar above the slab. I have no idea how or why the "H" beams left the column unsupported. edit in italics ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 I’m the farthest thing from an expert on these matters. I mean, I don’t even have my own YouTube channel FFS. But assuming we needed temporary shoring in a place that doesn’t make any sense, why a concrete column. Again, not a licensed structural engineer here, but I imagine it would have involved the following steps (in any order): Saw cutting and removing the existing slab concrete top and bottom. Drilling horizontal holes in each of the slab to receive/tie epoxied rebar for continuity (the very stuff we see sticking out of the slab now; many pieces). Forming the new column which would have to flush with the slabs top and bottom. Injecting concrete into the form from the bottom with a relief tube at the top until you see a return of the pumped concrete. And I guess vibrating the whole thing to boot given how tight that rebar is? All of that vs. a steel I-beam with a couple of flanges on either end that gets bolted/anchor in place. Am out out in left field here? Or in the parking lot even? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 @Spartan: It's even worse than that. Concrete shrinks. For it to be of any real use as shoring, you'd need to cast the column in place without providing a tension tie to the slab above. You would need to either use smooth dowels into the upper slab with bond breaker on them, or you'd have to just not put any rebar in the upper slab at all- meaning you'd have zero shear resistance at the joint, which means the value of the column as a shoring element is severely compromised. Then, after the complicated and expensive casting of this column, you'd need to leave a space between the top of the ghost column and the slab. You'd need to wait quite some time - at least a month, potentially longer - for the concrete to be sufficiently cured that shrinkage has stopped; you'd then pack the space between the top of the ghost column and the slab with non-shrink grout. While you were doing all of this, if some kind of beam failure or collapse was the concern, you'd need to put conventional steel jack shoring in place to protect the beam during the 3 months it would take to install the concrete column, wait for it to cure, pack with grout, and wait for THAT to cure sufficiently to handle major load. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (SFCharlie) The column may have driven itself intact into the slab, but then disintegrated or have been demoed by excavator after that, leaving only the rebar above the slab. I still contend that if this is what happened - the column above punched through the slab and impaled itself into the lowest level - there would be clear indications which are not present. That column was not floating in air; it was sitting on the next level of the deck. In order for it to punch through, it would have to punch out a little rectangle of that deck. While that type of failure is possible- and in fact is seen elsewhere in the collapse- it would be obvious because the horizontal rebar in the punched-out section would be visible. Below that bundle of rebar, there would be at least a couple of horizontal bars trapped. There aren't. The only way this would not happen is if, as the column punched through the slab, it punched out an exactly perfect rectangle which exactly matched the outer dimensions of the column, and perfectly sheared off all the horizontal bar. Then as the bottom of the column hit the lower slab, it would have to penetrate deep enough to push that little rectangle of upper slab completely below the surface of the lower slab. All without leaving any surface cracking whatsoever (at least as far as we can tell from the photos we have) evident on the top surface of the lower slab. I contend that this is not impossible- but the probability of such a 'perfect' scenario is microscopically low. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 The remnants of whatever column came through the floor above would have been traveling 20 mph with the weight of a portion of plenty of building behind it when it hit something solid again. Meaning it would inclined to continue moving that fast. Could that effectively punch clean through the slab in the garage, shearing anything off that came with it? And if it could, wouldn’t most of the carnage be on the back side of the slab (AKA the exit wound)? ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) #### Quote (SwinnyGG (Mechanical)12 Nov 21 20:23) I have been slow to figure this all out, but my present understanding is that the column was supported by the "H" of beams, but that the column was not directly tied to the beams, rather, the first floor slab was attached to the beams below it, and the column was attached to the first floor slab. How and why the "H" moved enough northwest to slide off the four columns that supported it, is beyond my understanding, but the evidence is that this happened. The "H" dropped from the top of the garage to the bottom. the remnants of the 1st floor slab have apparently been removed. all that is left is the rebar sticking out of the garage floor slab? SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Spartan5) the remnants of the 1st floor slab have apparently been removed. all that is left is the rebar sticking out of the garage floor slab? What I'm saying is that that column had 1st floor slab underneath it; if it punched through, there would be horizontal bar in that bundle. Unless for some strange reason, during demolition, they removed any horizontal bar. But why would they do that and leave the vertical bar bundle there? Makes no sense to me, but maybe they did. #### Quote (Spartan5) And if it could, wouldn’t most of the carnage be on the back side of the slab (AKA the exit wound)? Two points on that line of thinking - one, perhaps the damage would be worse on the back side; but there would still be damage on the front and there is basically none at all, which makes no sense; second, there is no 'exit'... below that first floor slab is dirt. The compressive strength of dirt is not infinite, but all of these elements are incompressible (the dirt, the concrete, the rebar, etc) which means any punching through of the basement slab would mean displaced volume that has to go somewhere. My guess is it would swell horizontally and cause additional cracking in the basement slab, which again appears to be perfectly uncracked. Again just conjecture on my part... I just can't wrap my head around what we're looking at here. #### Quote (SFCharlie) How and why the "H" moved enough northwest to slide off the four columns that supported it, is beyond my understanding, but the evidence is that this happened. The 'H' undoubtedly moved horizontally during its fall, no disagreement there. But the location of that bundle suggests that the column above would have had to come perfectly straight down. My issue with that is that the 'H' was attached to the first floor slab, and the column was also attached to the first floor slab. So how does the 'H' displace laterally BUT the first floor slab stays exactly where it is, and the column comes down exactly vertical? Seems unlikely to me. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (SwinnyGG) ... as the column punched through the slab, it punched out an exactly perfect rectangle which exactly matched the outer dimensions of the column... My thought was that if the "K" column broke off from its supporting beam, most of the concrete at the bottom would be crumbled leaving 6 to 12 inches of rebar sticking out. A concrete nail doesn't need to penetrate all the way through a slab to hold tight and the rebar, acting like a concrete nail, wouldn't need to penetrate all the way through to remain in place. This would improve the probability. Edit: I now see what you are saying about the horizontal bars but they may have remained on top of the slab and been loose enough to get removed in cleanup. Sig lines are for trolls. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (Nukum948) most of the concrete at the bottom would be crumbled leaving 6 to 12 inches of rebar sticking out. A concrete nail doesn't need to penetrate all the way through a slab to hold tight and the rebar, acting like a concrete nail, wouldn't need to penetrate all the way through to remain in place. This would improve the probability. This is something I hadn't considered- that the end of that column was probably crumbled and the rebar may have been exposed upon contact with the slab. I see your point, that makes this scenario significantly less impossible. I still think there would be some cracking on the surface.. I can't remember, but isn't that #8 or #10 bar? I can't imagine simultaneously driving a dozen #8/#10 "concrete nails" (perfect analogy by the way) within a square foot area without the top surface of the slab cracking/spalling at least somewhat. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 #### Quote (SwinnyGG) I can't remember, but isn't that #8 or #10 bar? I can't imagine simultaneously driving a dozen #8/#10 "concrete nails" (perfect analogy by the way) within a square foot area without the top surface of the slab cracking/spalling at least somewhat. I think it was number 10 and I would expect plenty of cracking and spalling on the surface as well. Unfortunately we don't have clear enough pictures to make anything more than an educated guess. Sig lines are for trolls. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 The steel that remains for the “known” columns is bundled a lot neater and tighter than this mystery mess. There’s also a lot more kinking near the immediate surface when compared to the others. #### Quote (SwimmyGG) second, there is no 'exit'... below that first floor slab is dirt. The compressive strength of dirt is not infinite, but all of these elements are incompressible (the dirt, the concrete, the rebar, etc) which means any punching through of the basement slab would mean displaced volume that has to go somewhere. I hear you. But I know from experience that you can drive pieces of rebar into the ground pretty easily with little to show at the surface for it. Think about pounding in the drill rod when using a nuclear density gauge for compaction testing. The question to me is can a piece of rebar moving at 20 mph punch cleanly through concrete with the weight of a building pushing behind it? Right now we are missing other plausible explanations. We need to get the Myth Busters to build a test rig. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) Operator? Operator? Yes Operator, I need a 13 story concrete column, preferably with slabs attached every story, and a one story drop stand with a few inch thick slab for a base. Yes, thank you mam. SF Charlie Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14 (OP) Why is the top of the Northeast corner of the "H" almost free of rebar?, and what's that crop of rebar on top of the Southeast corner? Ah, the south side of the "H" is the exterior wall of the building. ### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14500 for more pixels plz... but looking at the pic above it looks like the cross beam is fractured near the southern end? Maybe it didn't drop all at once and 'maybe' the southern end has been snugged back together..
I noticed looking at the aerial photo that the southern beam looked a bit curved or slightly slanted.

Just pointing this out for those who can process various scenarios when Charlie gets his K colummn ;)

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

@SF Charlie, probably due to how they cut it during the demolition and removal.

BTW guys, I just premiered the latest video "Miami Condo Collapse: NIST Investigation Update/Status NCST" https://youtu.be/a53k9_Q1BuA

I took 4 hours of their status update from the other day and condensed it down to 20 minutes. You can bet that you know who will be along shortly to scrape my video and show it on his channel again and tell everybody how stupid Jeff Ostroff is and continue to lie to people telling them I'm a tool salesman and tell everybody he never watches my videos because I'm not worth the time, yet he always seems to steal my vids to show on his channel and pick them apart and show them how wrong I am LOL. “But I never watch Jeffs videos”.

.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Nukum948)

My thought was that if the "K" column broke off from its supporting beam, most of the concrete at the bottom would be crumbled leaving 6 to 12 inches of rebar sticking out. A concrete nail doesn't need to penetrate all the way through a slab to hold tight and the rebar, acting like a concrete nail, wouldn't need to penetrate all the way through to remain in place. This would improve the probability.
This is my feeling as well. Especially with the demo guys having reported the concrete in the columns was soft. The bottom could have easily crumbled prior to hitting the slab.

The rebar is deep enough in there however that it was not affected by heavy machinery in the clean-up process, unless they were ultra delicate and removed most of the debris around it by hand. It's still really farfetched, but so far seems the most logical.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (AutisticBez)

Maybe it's just some random rebar sitting on the ground? How do we even know it's attached?
There's nothing around it supporting it. The bar with the S bend, among others, on the east most side would be defying gravity if it were not attached/embedded somehow.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Jeff Ostroff

Anyone can see thru that guy, I'd bet 80% of the comments on his vids are faked accts. I am surprised YT admin can't do anything to help you.

I know it sux being trolled tho, I had someone go so far as to look up my reddit acct, and troll me about a post I made on a Formula One thread. I said something about Bottas and they started replying I was a 911 conspiracy theorist o.o, w/e I can't be bothered with idiocy.

Remember this - Indifference hurts way more than anger ^^

Edit: Therapy session over... please proceed with your rebar size analysis guys.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

in the old days it was letters.

In truth lies and o rings. Allan McDonald talked about them having to disprove various theory's that had been put forward for the challenger disaster.

To the point they instrumented up the next time they moved a unit from the stack up building to the launchpad to show the stress levels while it was moving and going round corners.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Sorry will not post again.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)
If anyone has any reason not to post a copy of the above broken into words, please just say "don't post". thanks
(since MOJOJOHN removed his post, I will not post.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

I still want to get my hands on the real security camera footage. You can bet that the Miami Dade prosecutors office has those digital files they haven't said anything and I'm quite surprised that the news hasn't mentioned it or said that they were trying to get it from the police. I already turned in a Freedom of Information Act request to the Miami Dade PD but they have not answered me yet. So it seems like they're being very tight lipped on that, as the Miami Dade PD did answer me on a previous request and supplied me with the data that I requested. But I believe because there is an ongoing criminal investigation and then possible liabilities and lawsuits after that, it's going to be a long time before we ever see these security videos but I am chomping at the bit to get my hands on one

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Speaking with one of the crane/pile driver operater at work today. He's fairly confident 5kips would dig that rebar in deep enough to stick into the concrete assuming they're #10's. A whole lot less than I was expecting. Actually doesn't sound all thay crazy now.

@Jeff, have you any idea if they have the as builts? The town of surfside kept deflecting me to Miami saying they may have them, but Surfside does not.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Charlie, good luck with that. The work next door didn't seem to damage the part of the building closest to it, only that furthest away.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

"The construction of a new luxury condo tower just feet away from Champlain Towers South caused severe damage to the fragile, poorly designed building in Surfside, eventually leading to the collapse that ..."

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

As someone who spends a large portion of his time, I'm assuming, in home improvement stores, think back to the quality of 15 years ago versus 3 years ago. What we remember isn't what we see anymore. We cannot even get hard anodized aluminum to last longer than 2 years on the beach anymore without severe pitting and deterioration of welds. It's hard to even find in these supply places, actual quality stainless fasteners that do not rust instantly, because cheap Indian and Chinese 304/308 is king now. I agree, things should last longer than they are, but consumerism has won out. Just my opinion based off experiences in ocean front construction and bridge construction in South Florida. When is the last time even I-95 wasn't under construction? 25 years ago?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Optical98)

Interview with professor of structural engineering: Sounds of a catastrophic collapse

I wish they'd given more examples, but what this does tell us is that the engineers absolutely do take the sounds heard seriously.
Indeed the sounds are important and should be take seriously. Open to plenty of interpretation though absent correlation with concurrent visible events.

From Part 6 (4-1/2 months ago):

#### Quote (Spartan5)

The pool slab probably didn’t collapse in unison all at once. It was likely a slow progressive failure too.

Say the slab just gave up, maybe along the construction joint. It may have started with one piece of corroded rebar that gave; pop. Then another with more load now; POP. Then another with even more load; BANG. Then the slab starts to fall; BOOM. First onto cars maybe. Then areas where no one is parked (even “louder” and more pronounced of a crash).

All of this “noise” would have been transmitted through the structural members of the the building. The floor being covered with insulating flooring materials (possibly/probably) vs the ceiling and walls which are exposed.

Regarding “established timeline,” there isn’t much of one. Short of the final collapse, there are only a few discrete points where you can say that something happened before a particular time. But other than that…

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

What equipment was in the maint or mechanical room in the garage beside the elevator shaft? The fire pump?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Optical98)

Interview with professor of structural engineering: Sounds of a catastrophic collapse

I wish they'd given more examples, but what this does tell us is that the engineers absolutely do take the sounds heard seriously.

Of course they do.

Note that they interviewed an engineer, not an inexperience random person off of the street who has no experience.

If that professor had been in the building during the collapse made it out, her experience would probably have provided a wealth of information to the teams that came after to analyze what happened. Unfortunately, the people who were actually there were laymen.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

What is the point of discussing the roof, it is a concrete deck with a built-up hot mop. The worst case for replacing a stand would be cutting the membrane installing a new anchor bolt, flash it with lead and bitumen; fill the void and patch the felt.

These are regular residential condenser units, and it is absolutely insane to use a crane to fly up a few units on roof that has stair access. The unit size is around 1,400 feet so you're looking at a 2-ton unit which only weighs around 150 lbs. The air handler is a lot harder to install.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Demented)

The special circumstances mentioned by the PE who did the electrical and fire system evaluation for the deck requiring lights and fire alarm devices was that it was a path of egress.

Sorry, I have no information on dates or permits for the fire alarm.

If he wants to call that a path of egress that's fine. The AHJ always has the final word on that. But fire alarms and exit signs are intended to evacuate people to a safe location. I see that two exit signs were to be added at the gates for the pool deck but one of them would lead people to the valet parking area under the building with no other exit sign to lead them to a safer location. If he doesn't consider the pool deck to be a safe location, then why would it be safe under part of the building?

Another issue is from my interpretation of the fire codes: a pull station is required at the exit point of every floor and at the final exit point from the building as marked by exit signs. So would that mean at the pool deck gates? Do they even make weatherproof pull stations that are also seagull rated?

#### Quote (Demented )

Devices were in the stairwell, but not in the enclosed deck per the inspection.

The enclosed parking level should be covered by NFPA 88A and I haven't used that standard or kept up on changes over the years but I do remember that having an automatic sprinkler system and exhaust fans reduces or eliminates the need for some of the fire protection devices. I believe the stair towers are considered part of the building and not part of the garage, with pull stations as you exit the stairs and go into the garage, almost like the garage is considered outside of the building.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

I have never heard a building fail, but the remaining bars those beams were carrying alot of tension. I imagine that a reinforcing bar stretched to failure would sound like a gunshot going off.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Just in case anybody was wondering when the phone call was made from the alarm company to the Miami Dade police and what was said, I have included here below that transcript from my video that I did on the 911 calls back in July. Just shows the exact timestamp as well as exactly what was said between both the alarm company and the 911 operator.

Call came in to 911 1:16:39 AM

- [Computer Voice] Thursday. June 24th, 2021 zero-one-16 and 39 seconds.

- [Man] Hello, this is Central Alarm Control. We're calling it the fire alarm for a business.

- [Operator] Okay, one second.

- [Man] Mhmm.

- [Jeff] Now here, the 911 operator is going to leave this guy on hold for quite a few seconds here before coming back. I don't know what they were doing.

- [Man] The address is 8777 Collins Avenue.

- [Operator] 8777 Collins avenue?

- [Man] Yes.

- [Operator] What kind of alarm did you say?

- [Man] A fire alarm.

- [Operator] What's the name of the account?

- [Man] It is Champlain Towers South.

- [Man] I am with Central Alarm Control.

- [Operator] Operator?

- [Man] My name is Silvio.

- [ Operator] Call back number?

- [Man] Mine is 3-0-5 2-3-8 0-8-0-0.

- [Operator] And a premise number?

- [Man] The premise number would be, give me one moment, 3-0-5 8-6-5 4-7-4-0.

- [Operator] I'm number 1-2-6.

- [Man] 1-2-6? Okay, thank you very much.

- [ Operator] You're welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

NFPA for Type II construction requires pull stations within 34 inches of a means of egress, I have never heard of placing one within a stairwell.

In Type II construction you do not need to have enclosed parking structure alarmed.

The only thing that I can think of in terms of additional exterior "emergency lighting" is that there is a conflict between the NFPA and the "Sea Turtle" light code, exterior lights in buildings that can be seen from the ocean are highly restricted too the point that there is basically no useful illumination provided. This would have to be triggered by the fire alarm, simply to protect the turtles.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Keith_1 )

NFPA for Type II construction requires pull stations within 34 inches of a means of egress, I have never heard of placing one within a stairwell.

Well, I said "with pull stations as you exit the stairs". Referring to the original drawings it is shown just on the outside of the stairwell, just as you exit the stairs.

And now that you bring it up, a quick Google search shows:
NFPA 72 requires a pull station within 60 inches of every individual exit, and for groups of doors that are more than 40 feet wide away from each other, there must be a pull station on both sides of the grouping. The placement of fire alarm pull stations is critical to ensuring they provide the protection intended.

Could you please post a link to this 34" standard? I can't seem to find it.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Nukum948)

So would that mean at the pool deck gates? Do they even make weatherproof pull stations that are also seagull rated?
They do. I don't think the wording of seagull rated is in it, but they do make weatherproof ones with clear plastic flip-up covers that are rated for use on oceanside. My unit is located away from the water so I only have a weatherproof one located outside my front door, but the units closer to the water have the plastic cover. Also, I have seen these located at pool gate entrances on ocean front properties, along side child-proof privacy swing doors with spring actuated self closing hinges. I haven't a clue as to the legality of that, but in the lower 3 counties here, this is a common thing. Turtle safe amber alert strobes are also available on the market. The local fire marshal has the authority to mandate and approve different colors that are not NFPA approved clear.

In case anyone's missed it, I've attached a PDF of the mechanical and electrical system evaluation that references fire alarm devices needing to be installed on the deck level and garage parking.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Demented)

I don't think the wording of seagull rated is in it,

Thanks for the info, the ocean is several hundred miles from me so I never had to consider such things. The seagull thing was a poor attempt at humor.

The PDF is nice but it doesn't tell me what kind of devices were to be added or where they would be located. Doesn't really matter now that the building is gone.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Nukum948)

Thanks for the info, the ocean is several hundred miles from me so I never had to consider such things. The seagull thing was a poor attempt at humor.

The PDF is nice but it doesn't tell me what kind of devices were to be added or where they would be located. Doesn't really matter now that the building is gone.
The humor attempt was by no means poor, and I promise you is a concern here. Though our seagulls spend their time away from the shore at the soon to be golf courses we call Florida mountains (landfills).

Strobes/siren alarms are my assumption as to what would be installed there. The lack of indication of what and where, even by Morabito is somewhat frustrating, but it's at least somewhat of an indication of no fire alert systems being in those general areas, thus likely why other alarms were not triggered until it was too late as there likely were no alarm wires to be severed and cause an alert be it at the control panel or front desk.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Demented)

Strobes/siren alarms are my assumption as to what would be installed there.

And at least two pull stations.

We have those winged rats here too but you guys don't seen to have as much snow to shovel.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the NFPA, NEC and all of the other building codes and standards that we work to are minimum requirements and we can always add more protection and better building practices as long as you can convince the customer it is worth paying for. Sometimes the "Authority Having Jurisdiction" can be our friend by giving us more work and a better world.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Spartan5)

[23 Nov 21 05:14]

In the interest of accuracy:

1. If you read G19 in the Detailed Data tab of the Timeline spreadsheet, you will understand the references to 1st Collapse, etc. Links provided in Rows 8-16.

2. You mischaracterize Sarah Nir’s reaction to the 1:10 collapse. Refer to the links in Rows 8-16 of the Detailed Data tab for contemporaneous statements. Sarah was not casual…she was furious and wanted Shamoka to call the police to get them to stop what she thought was illegal night time construction. In the recent Herald story she affirms that she was “really mad.”

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

This conversation is just off the rails, to the point of absurdity. Getting into NFPA is about the dumbest thing I can think of in this instance, I was trying to steer the conversation in a different

The building failed because of stupidity, and alot of people lost their lives due to the same. Single point analysis is a waste of time and energy. What we need to do is make the general cause of the failure understandable to the general population, and more importantly how to economically remediate poor conditions. Why waste your time doing complex analysis of a failure moment that is entirely preventable? It happened, it was preventable, what do we do to improve the future of other structures that are in a similar condition, because there are alot of them out there.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

5
Keith_1, absurdity was 7 threads ago. This has since toned down.

We still don't know why the building failed. Despite the poor state of the maintenance of the building, there could have been other contributing factors that had caused it to collapse. There are some very egregious flaws from the original construction that may or may not have contributed, such as a majority of the missing rebar. The maintenance issues may very well have been futile in preventing continued damage to specific areas due to that reason, and as shoddy as some of the remediation work was, may have been one of the only things that kept the building standing for as long as it did. After seeing some of the very corroded rebar at the base of columns, as crazy as it seemed months ago, a car for all we know really could have taken out a column. With uneven subsidence being evident in the building, there could be an unknown pile failure or failures that we've yet to see. FIU research was showing that this building was gradually subsidizing more than it's surrounding buildings over time, which could come down to various causes. We still have no information on the piles, or much of the actual as-built of the building. We still don't know if the original construction stretched out the concrete mix with beach sand and salt water, nor do we even know if even the proper grades of concrete and rebar were used. We have little indication of if certain non-load bearing walls in the original design did indeed carry some of the building's load and their removal could have carried some consequences. Many documents related to the building are still missing, or so we're lead to believe from the town of Surfside. We have no idea what backfill was used to level the grade on the site, or if it was ever even compacted, let alone laid properly to avoid erosion as this grade was under mean sea level. The original construction had work stoppages for accidents and plan deviation/permit violations, which raises all sorts of questions on what set of plans the building was even constructed under. I for the most part do agree with you that this came down to a maintenance issue, but for the reasons stated above, we just don't know and the maintenance issues could very well just be blinders on us. There appear to be many single points of failure possible. I feel it's worth digging into it all, which can ultimately help in preventing future occurrences.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Demented

I think we were onto something regarding the elevator shear wall area. If I can figure out how to share things on here from twitter...

Here is one image -

This is more from Dawn Lehman and the Miami Herald. I can see snippets on twitter but links are behind a paywall.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Lehman said the witnesses’ collective memory suggests that the collapse likely began when steel reinforcement fractured at or near the southern edge of the first-floor slab, in the valet parking area at the western edge of the pool deck.

The tower’s night security guard, Shamoka Furman, provided the framework for the Herald’s investigation when she described a sequence of three distinct failures:

One small, the next large, and the final unspeakably brutal.

The Herald identified six people who heard the first –– boom, boom –– but saw nothing. Engineers said that’s indicative of steel reinforcement inside the concrete fracturing.

A minute later, 10 people heard the pool deck collapse in one thunderous crash.

Seven minutes later, the tower fell.

Lehman worked with a team at the University of Washington to build a complex computer model to identify pre-existing stresses in the structure and test various collapse scenarios.

It was a process of trial and error.

Collapse scenarios were rejected if they contradicted the timeline of events. They were also rejected if the model produced a different damage pattern than what was visible in images of the collapse.

Lehman zeroed in on the connection between the pool deck slab and the southern perimeter wall, where post-collapse photos showed pre-existing problems in the area.

The rusty rebar fracturing could have made the “boom, boom” sound, engineers said.

A computer simulation of the corrosion and missing reinforcement along the wall showed rebar fracturing down the line –– “boom, boom” –– before cracks spread across the deck and into the tower, following similar patterns seen in post-collapse photos.

The Herald’s forensic investigation was based on observable conditions in photographs and videos from before and after the collapse, more than two dozen interviews with people familiar with the building, and the review of thousands of records.

In addition to Lehman, who worked as a consultant to the Herald on this project, nine other engineers reviewed the results of the Herald’s reporting and model.

“If the slab lost support on the southern edge where it was sitting on the wall ... then there could be an unzipping effect because you get more force on the nearby rebar,” said Shankar Nair, an engineer with 50 years of experience with large structures.

Credits: Miami Herald, Sarah Blaskey and Nick Nehamas

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Optical98)

This is more from Dawn Lehman and the Miami Herald. I can see snippets on twitter but links are behind a paywall.

The archived version of this piece, which anyone can access, was provided earlier in this part. Although some of the images don’t make it into the archive, many do.

#### Quote (Optical98)

The tower’s night security guard, Shamoka Furman, provided the framework for the Herald’s investigation when she described a sequence of three distinct failures:

One small, the next large, and the final unspeakably brutal.

This is the same thing that Gabe Nir earlier described as Collapse 1 through 3. The Witness Statement Timeline uses his nomenclature.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Maud,

It's weird, because the pics are different in the twitter version, for me anyway...
And in the link you posted, I saw what the survivors were saying etc, but nothing about Lehman. o.o

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

I posted multiple links, as the Herald published three articles simultaneously.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

@Optical98
A collapse starting along the shear wall and elevator shaft has been looked at since the first few days after the collapse. Chloride corrosion, poor concrete cover on the bottom of the slab leading to rebar unzipping, and an extreme lack of reinforcement between the thin slab and shear wall, and of course the cantilevered forces acting on the columns at the drop connection.
The valet drive having been repaired in the early 2000's by opening the spiderweb cracks to 3/8" wide by 1/2" deep and filling with caulk before topping with paver bricks didn't help it's structural integrity any.
Nothing really new that anyone's onto. Many CE/SE's pointed that failure path out almost day 1.

Up on the 9th floor where the Gonzolez family had enough time between floor collapses to find each other and make sure the granddaughter was covered by the grandmother I believe it was, has been where I've wondered if it has been slabs/walls failing in the upper levels before the structure fell. They had reported the slab in and just outside of their bedrooms sinking and failing before collapsing down to the 8th floor, before eventually falling down to the 5th floor as the building collapsed. The Nir's reporting sounds of a wall collapsing above them tickles that idea in my mind, plus being under the tie beam supporting the AHU that was replaced/repoured in one of the remediation projects without inspection of the rebar, of which after the collapse we have been able to see there was no rebar at the beam to column connections.

That entire area was weak, and almost as if it were built with no physical connection between the slabs and wall, aside from minimal horizontal rebar at what appears to be almost 24" spacing in places.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

I wasn't trying to imply we were the only ones to discuss this area, but we had just decided to circle back and focus more on the shear wall/elevator shaft anomalies etc.

Epoxybot was the first one on here to say they thought the failure started along the shear wall. I didn't join until page 5 or 6.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Demented)

Up on the 9th floor…
From the Witness Statement Timeline: “ "On feeling the building shaking ""like an earthquake"" and hearing a sound like ""thunder,"" Angela Gonzalez rousts her husband and daughter to run. Angela and Deven Gonzalez (904) run out of the bedroom door. The floor opens up and they fall from the 9th to the 8th floor. Angela grabs Deven and they fall to Floors 4 and 5, ending near the top of the pile."

The hallway outside their bedroom door was inside the apartment. In other words, it was not the public hallway outside the apartment.

>>>>>Edit: Here is Morabito’s drawing of the 9th through 11th floors. Wouldn’t 904 be supported by E2? If so, it’s beyond the shear wall connection.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Maud

If you go back to Part 11 on this thread and search "elevator" and unit 811, you will see how this discussion came about, I was asking about Raysa's comments and why there seemed to be a delay in the 8th floor collapsing etc.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

@Optical98, I was responding to Demented.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)

#### Quote (Keith_1 (Structural)23 Nov 21 15:21)

There are simply no defects in the construction of this structure
...missing rebar at column slab joints???
...soupy concrete???
..lack of drainage (slope)???
..shear wall of (what ever they call cinder block now)???
..rebar in slabs with inadequate cover???
And the beat goes on, the beat goes on...

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (SFCharlie)

..shear wall of (what ever they call cinder block now)???

Good evening Charlie,
Could you elaborate on the block you are talking about in the shear wall? The only place I have found where they used block in the shear wall is where the stairwell door originally opened to the east through the shear wall. It was blocked over and they moved the doorway to come out on the west side of the stairwell as shown in Fiorella's video. It appears they shortened the vestibule for the door but left it's corner column. (The door is partially hidden between that column and a traffic cone.)

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)

#### Quote (MaudSTL (Computer)24 Nov 21 19:34)

Quote (Optical98)
This is more from Dawn Lehman and the Miami Herald. I can see snippets on twitter but links are behind a paywall.

The archived version of this piece, which anyone can access, was provided earlier in this part. Although some of the images don’t make it into the archive, many do.
These images are on twitter, but not in any of the stories I've seen behind the Green Door (I mean the firewall).

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)

#### Quote (NewNameDude948 (Electrical)25 Nov 21 02:37)

Quote (SFCharlie)
..shear wall of (what ever they call cinder block now)???

Good evening Charlie,
Could you elaborate on the block you are talking about in the shear wall?

It appears to me that in several places that a lot of buildings have shear walls, (around stairwells for instance) Concrete blocks of some composition were used,,,not to say that wasn't what was called out on the prints, but the excuse of allowing the architect to allocate the walls and spaces "later' doesn't make sense in this instance...
just saying...

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (CharlieSF)

These images are on twitter, but not in any of the stories I've seen behind the Green Door (I mean the firewall).

Those images all made it into the archived version too.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (SFCharlie)

...a lot of buildings have shear walls, (around stairwells for instance) Concrete blocks of some composition were used...

"shear walls" and "concrete blocks" don't go together, in my opinion.

Perhaps the world is different in Florida.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Not even in Florida.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote:

SFCharlie

Well, my question was if there were any other known locations of CMU block used in this shear wall.
There were two doorways that were designed into this wall that could have easily been avoided by putting the door to the stairs and maintenance rooms in different locations. It almost seems like these openings were designed as stress relief to allow a per-determined amount of flexing to prevent fracturing. Filling with easily crushed CMU shouldn't cause any harm and even survived demolition.
I dunno, mabee i bee dum.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

12th floor stairwell may have had CMU patching holes in the wall, but other than that, should be no other CMU.

Edit: Charlie, you may be getting confused with all of the interior CMU walls around the shear walls, but the shear walls were not CMU.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)
Thank you NukeDude948 and Demented (Maybe I was confused by the stair steps south of the elevator?)(near the top)

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Where CMU blocks may have fallen onto elevator cars.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Shear wall and the failure point for ref.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Does anyone recall if there was an estimated or established timeline for the Unit 711 video? That video shows the wall between the 10 and 11 stack leaning into and slightly downwards if I recall. I'm thinking it's indicative of the east wing detaching from the shear wall. And we can hear a loud snap.

I know I'm being a bit lazy, but also slicing n dicing in the kitchen atm ^^
Happy Turkey day all o/

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Demented)

Back to our regularly scheduled absurdity.

Happy Thanksgiving you nerds.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

It's not absurd tho, we do have new information in hearing the full extent of Furman's statements, back in August (part 11) when the body cams were released. And in these latest articles how she experienced the bank of mailboxes cave in and then the roof of the drive thru fall down...an odor or smell so strong she couldn't breathe.

New info will keep coming in and we will need to circle back to these scenarios as it does.

I had asked a few days ago, now that a lawsuit has been filed, the legal team for the owners/victims should be able to subpoena all video footage from the security cams. That will be eye opening if it's made public. I'm sure some of it will be.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

(OP)

#### Quote (Nuke 'em Nuke 'em good948 (Electrical)25 Nov 21 17:18)

Nuke 'em Nuke 'em good948 (Electrical)25 Nov 21 17:18]Quote (Demented)
Back to our regularly scheduled absurdity.
Hun...Hum...OK Let's have a contest Who can list the most "defects in the construction of this structure"

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Optical98)

Does anyone recall if there was an estimated or established timeline for the Unit 711 video?

It’s in the Witness Statement Timeline, Detailed Data tab.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Optical98)

I had asked a few days ago, now that a lawsuit has been filed, the legal team for the owners/victims should be able to subpoena all video footage from the security cams. That will be eye opening if it's made public. I'm sure some of it will be.
I suspect most cameras that caught anything still have a large portion of their view blocked by building or trees. Plus still being at night, not the best of quality pixels. Or at worst, deleted by now due to a lack of screen cap software and limited playback functions.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (Demented)

Or at worst, deleted by now due to a lack of screen cap software and limited playback functions.

This was decreed a crime scene right away. The police and various prosecutorial agencies would never let that happen, since they are true professionals. To have allowed evidence to slip away as you suggest would imply a very high level of incompetence.

If there is such incompetence, then I suggest that those responsible will be held to account by state government.

It's only reasonable.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

You need a new writ in your legal system habeus imagines. Show us the pictures

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

#### Quote (spsalso)

This was decreed a crime scene right away. The police and various prosecutorial agencies would never let that happen, since they are true professionals. To have allowed evidence to slip away as you suggest would imply a very high level of incompetence.

If there is such incompetence, then I suggest that those responsible will be held to account by state government.

It's only reasonable.
Broward and FDOT allowed that to happen before. Only reason I mentioned it.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

I am confident that NIST has already been able to view these security cameras and you can bet with the number of cameras they had around the pool that even if it was dark for the camera, I bet you'll still be able to see what part of the pool collapsed first or did it all collapse at once.

Also in the video I did back in August of the body cams, I showed how one of the officers that arrived at 1:24:45 he couldn't get in the front door because that entire fascia ceiling out in front of the front door had fallen down and was blocking access to the door.

So that corroborates Furman’s story, and it shamefully paints Kai as liar. As you know in one of his videos recently he was defaming her character and claiming she made the whole story up. Although the body cam video clearly showed the front door was blocked and that she would have had to climb through the valet window.

And I did freeze frames on the video and stepped through it and showed the very first time we saw miss Fuhrman when the police discovered her and she was down in the pit almost where the hot tub was and she was with the lady from 611 who had escaped and made it down the staircase into the now collapsed pool deck.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

We learned two new details from two of the three Miami Herald pieces published this past week: the Nirs backed into space 14 at about 12:30 AM, and Shamoka Furman smelled something “potent” while attempting to escape the lobby after the building collapsed. The Timeline of Witness Statements is up to date.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

Not surprised there was a smell. When you rip open a material you expose it's guts to the open air. Think of how many materials in that building were ripped apart and had surfaces exposed to air that hadn't been in 40 years? Not to mention sewage pipes that broke open. I could imagine it smelled like everything.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 14

That was pretty cool to know that was their space since on many of my videos I used space #14 as the starting point at the bottom of the ramp.

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