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# Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 1622

## Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

(OP)

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (zebraso)

By fluid I guess it means suspended on liquid.

Here is the image of liquid rust I had in mind:

It is possible to see the liquid dripping from the PVC drain in this excellent video by our friend Jeff:

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

That photo begs so many questions. I believe that is a catch bucket under a leaky elbow fitting that has been doped up with no success. Where do you start with that? Is this pvc drain like the one elsewhere that simply drains onto the floor at a column? Then the problem here would be the water is just running onto the floor at the non-preferred spot. And is that a junction box that the water is running onto? And is that covered with pitch to keep the water out. What the hell is going on there? Is the rust primarily from the junction box? Not that it is not a problem. Is this the standard for maintaining this building? Maybe I am seeing things.

Edit: Someone watched one too many flex seal commercials. Anyway sealing threaded pvc fittings is not always as simple as it should be. Too much tape and they crack. Where is the documentation that shows these drain pipes were ordered to be installed to drain onto the floor. And how did they decide where they should go? Or did Joe the plumber do it under cover of darkness?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

One more thing in the picture that I wanted to point out in that picture. Some sort of concrete chunk left clinging to the wall by a thread. So the slab cracked apart there after mostly pulling out of the wall and pivoted down.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (zebraso)

That photo begs so many questions.
Agreed, it is disturbing. That is/was a junction box. If you watch the video you will see there is a bucket below to catch the runoff.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Reverse_Bias (Electrical))

clinging to the wall by a thread
It seems to be resting on something that is jutting out of the wall. It could be an illusion. Just what it looks like. Is that a drain for the planter? Is there a hole in the wall there after the site is cleared?

After more looking and comparing I think what see jutting from the wall is circled below in a different view. And what you see as the slab is a diagonal crack going up the wall. And it looks like the wall is partially collapsed here. Well that would be something.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Reverse_Bias)

One more thing in the picture that I wanted to point out
Thanks Reverse_Bias,
There was a conduit that ran along the wall feeding the light on the corner of the 8-foot wall and possibly also the water cooler at the corner of the pool deck. I'm sure that is what that diagonal line is.

#### Quote (zebraso)

a different view
Thanks zebraso
I see the lump sticking out, that appears to align with the hole in the CMU wall above. Looking at that 7 news image.

#### Quote (zebraso)

Is there a hole in the wall there after the site is cleared
The wall was also cleared.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Is it fair to say this is what we are talking about? (in my faint red circle)

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (zebraso)

Is it fair to say this is what we are talking about? (in my faint red circle)
I think the area circled is further west than the hole in the wall. The location of the hole in the wall was just west of the single cone where the hoses (since MWI supplies industrial pumps) run down the wall.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (zebroso)

It seems to be resting on something that is jutting out of the wall. It could be an illusion. Just what it looks like. Is that a drain for the planter? Is there a hole in the wall there after the site is cleared?

After more looking and comparing I think what see jutting from the wall is circled below in a different view. And what you see as the slab is a diagonal crack going up the wall. And it looks like the wall is partially collapsed here. Well that would be something.

I had to enhance your image to see it, but I think it's there.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA (Mechanical))

further west than the hole in the wall

Thanks, I was thinking that was a possibility. The perspective is pretty tough. Not sure. I agree it looks far away. It looks like it's halfway to the end of the wall but I can't quite say for sure if that's right, because the farther things probably appear not as far as they really are. I think that's correct as to the perspective. It's a bad angle.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Reverse_Bias (Electrical))

I have a feeling I am about to see all kinds of things. So I better stop. But I will just note that I did not really notice part of the planter wall is resting on the truck. I have a tough time seeing that diagonal line as conduit in your enhancement. But the boundary wall looks deformed to me. That just does not look very planar. And I don't mean like in those photos of units where is was claimed the floors were sagging when it was probably the lens.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

"Liquid rust"?

Maybe. Maybe not.

I see a LOT of brown goo on top of what looks like a small transformer (not a junction box). I don't see evidence of how it got there from above. Nor do I see how it could have been generated by the POSSIBLE transformer inside.

Please stop "reaching", and come of with real evidence!

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

It looks a little too much like ballast tar. But that's crazy too. I'll go with brown goop on that one.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (zebraso)

I have a feeling I am about to see all kinds of things. So I better stop. But I will just note that I did not really notice part of the planter wall is resting on the truck. I have a tough time seeing that diagonal line as conduit in your enhancement. But the boundary wall looks deformed to me. That just does not look very planar. And I don't mean like in those photos of units where is was claimed the floors were sagging when it was probably the lens.
I might be over enhancing contrast so maybe it's just a dark spot on the wall. Don't think it would be that important to the collapse anyway

#### Quote (IanCA)

Thanks Reverse_Bias,
There was a conduit that ran along the wall feeding the light on the corner of the 8-foot wall and possibly also the water cooler at the corner of the pool deck. I'm sure that is what that diagonal line is.
Good spot, that pic shows down into the hole much better.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Reverse_Bias (Electrical))

just a dark spot on the wall

That post demo damage is farther to the west too. I had to find a photo back about 6 threads ago. It more than 2 cmu faux columns down from the still standing wall. So there is no deformation in the area of interest that would suggest a wall collapse. On a positive note there appears to be no tar buggy in that hole either.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (spsalso)

I don't see evidence of how it got there from above.
If you watch the video you can see the liquid dripping from the PVC pipe.

#### Quote (spsalso)

Nor do I see how it could have been generated by the POSSIBLE transformer inside.
I'm pretty sure it was a chemical reaction between the salty water and the carbon steel box.

#### Quote (spsalso)

Please stop "reaching", and come of with real evidence!
FeCl2 + H2O -> FeO + 2HCl

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA (Mechanical))

I'm pretty sure it was a chemical reaction between the salty water and the carbon steel box.
If I leave a coffee can beside the kitchen sink for too long I get a rust ring. Salt not needed. I mean the water is dripping on the steel box and the flanges at the bottom are partially dissolved. It would be a miracle if there were no rust stains wherever that water drips and runs.

It is most likely a transformer deferring to electrical. Transformer boxes can have cooling vent holes in the top. So they might have covered those holes to keep the dripping water from entering. Did they use a brown garbage can lid? Maybe. That's code right?
And the stains on the white bucket are reddish brown.

Edit: closer look at video and it look like a rectangular enclosure that may have ventilation holes under a drip edge. The spots with water running down may be bridges created by iron oxide deposits to the drip edge. (Lot of conjecture). Probably designed for damp environments. NEC?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

The competitor/comedian in me says don't, quit your day job.

What is the purpose of rhetorical questions, anyway?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

1 kva xfrmr in a rainproof enclosure. Good job.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

So the water drip is intentional to cool the transformer enclosure???

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Notice the flexible metallic conduit to the right in the picture of the Rusty Old Box. There is also something electrical looking coming out on the left.

I think it most likely that it was supplying low voltage (12 or 24 V) for something, but there isn't enough field of view to puzzle that out.

IF the water-stuff dripping down was leaking from a planter, then MAYBE that transformer was supplying low voltage lighting in it. Alternately, it could have been supplying power for a low-voltage irrigation system for the planter.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

It's 1:1 right? or 2:1 with center tap use. Galvanic isolation to help prevent electrocution from whatever the load is most likely. There are LED power supplies that can be found in a similar looking box. But this ain't that AFAIK assuming it is the Schneider product (label).

I think the label shows 120 and 240 connections. It says for voltage X on lines... connect secondary.... (something like that)

From the catalog these are general purpose transformers and they come in several different versions for different voltage standards. The they are resin encapsulated (potted). So that is the thermal management (no air flow needed). Oh yeah this might be to convert 208 to 120/240 If you could read the original label then we would know. But I don't think these are low voltage.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Nukeman948)

The competitor/comedian in me says don't, quit your day job.
I agree, that transformer looks close. The top certainly looks closer than the 1416 series, but the item in the video doesn't appear to have a screw, or screw hole, at the bottom, dimples on the sides or flanges for wall mounting. And there is another box behind the rusty enclosure in the video.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (spsalso)

Rusty Old Box
That's all I was trying to get to. Acknowledgment that the brown stuff is likely to be rust rather than simply goo.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA)

[img https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/u...]

When you hold the camera that close you can't see the flanges. More pics here:Link

The bottom is two pieces held on with three rusty screws. Dimples may have been added as a design change for the newer model year. Now, imagine the bottom access cover filling with water, rusting the corner you pointed out, and the one screw that holds that part of the cover on, allowing it to fall off. Or imagine anything you like. I'm not the one trying to sell a story. And I don't care who believes me when I'm not under oath.

Is it just a rusty old box, or a clever diversion?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

I'm not sure what the details of NEMA 3R are but I would guess that this does not apply. There is weather (rain), and then there is whatever this is. There has to be a code violation here, I would think.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (zebraso)

whatever this is

I think there is a possible explanation here, with hydrochloric or muriatic acid (muriatic meaning "pertaining to brine or salt") being the main concern:

As has been noted above, the effect of Cl- ions on CS corrosion mechanisms has been much less
widely studied than the effect of SO2. A high Cl- concentration in the aqueous adlayer on the metal
and high moisture retention in very deteriorated areas of the rust give rise to the formation of ferrous
chloride (FeCl2), which hydrolyses the water:

FeCl2 + H2O -> FeO + 2HCl, (8)

Notably raising the acidity of the electrolyte. In this situation the cathodic reaction (3) becomes
important, accelerating the corrosion process. The anolyte on the steel surface and in the pits that
have formed becomes saturated (or close to saturation) with the highly acidic FeCl2 solution. Both
the metallic cations and hydrogen ions require neutralisation, which occurs by the entry of Cl- ions,
but this leads to an increase in the Cl- concentration which intensifies metal dissolution, giving rise
in turn to the entry of more Cl-, which further intensifies the corrosion process. This attack
mechanism is fed by the corrosion products themselves (feedback mechanism), and it is sometimes
referred to as “autocatalytic"

The complete document is available here: Link

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Very good. Thank you. So we are back with the marine environment. But not just that because there is likely more than just ocean spray as found in rain.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

(OP)
Check the following article:

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

(OP)

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Section 110.26(F)(1)(a) I think code says that pipe has to be 6 feet above the electrical equipment (transformer box) and outside of a 30" wide zone centered on box or as wide as the equipment whichever is wider. And 36" in front depth must be clear. If the pipe was more than 6' above the box a drip pan could be installed under it.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

@Dik,

Thanks. In addition to the HCl here are a couple of details that caught my eye:

p8
The concentration of marine aerosol decreases with altitude.

Marine aerosol is comprised of fine particles suspended in the air (jet drops, film drops, brine
drops and sea-salt particles), solid or liquid, whose sizes vary from a few angstroms to several
hundred microns in diameter

p9
In Figure 4, Morcillo et al. note that the wind only needs to blow short time at speeds above 3 m/s in
directions with high entrainment of marine aerosol (they call them “saline winds”) for atmospheric
salinity to reach important values

[average wind speed at Surfside is above 10mph (4.47m/s)
https://weatherspark.com/y/18654/Average-Weather-i...

p13
The influence of the distance from the sea is one of the most important aspects of MAC [marine atmospheric corrosion] in coastal
areas. Empirically, it is known that the effect of the marine atmosphere

Unfortunately, CTS had a few design features that exacerbated these conditions.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (zebraso )

Section 110.26(F)(1)(a)

"The equipment space mentioned in 110.26(E) pertains to specific electrical equipment. All switchboards, switchgear, panelboards and motor control centers shall be located in dedicated spaces and protected from damage. Dedicated equipment space is not required for all types of electrical equipment, just those mentioned above. While there is nothing wrong with having dedicated space for equipment such as safety switches (disconnects), motor controllers (starters), meter socket enclosures, and transformers, it is not required".

Unfortunately, the NEC rules for dedicated equipment does not apply to transformers.
This is a good example of building codes being a minimum standard that we can and should exceed.
While it would have been good practice to provide a drip pan or a simple deflector, it does not a appear to be a code violation.

Transformers are people too, my friend.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Thanks. I see the intent there is for equipment that is to be operated, serviced or adjusted while energized. And then someone mentions that you might have to check the temperature or test voltages with the panel open, on a transformer. It has to do with working spaces. The transformer is electrically and physically protected so if it shorts out or catches on fire, it's good. And you should not have to test it in situ. If a problem is suspected slap another one in there and bench test it. I know people that will take a wiz in a parking garage when they have been bar hopping. Well Seinfeld comes to mind also. This unit is just in a bad location.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

It's only in a bad location because it's under a leaky pipe. And the professional qualified maintenance personnel have apparently chosen a sub-optimal solution. Sorta like some PE's in San Francisco.

If someone decides they need to pee on it, that might turn out to be an unfortunate decision.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

It would be nice to know what is being drained. It could be a condensate line for all anyone knows. Why is it turned down right above the transformer. why is there a T right above it also? Cleanout? It looks like there is a rubber tube adapter off the T that may or not be clamped. Just not enough info to make any real conclusions about anything. But it looks pretty kluged. That's a handyman special whatever it is. And Ostroff asked why the electrical cable was pulled out of the stay. It looks to me like the pipe installer had to move it to get the pipe to clear. If the whole thing is just part of the leaking ceiling solution then this had no more thought behind it that the fiberglass panels stuffed up in the works.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

"And Ostroff asked why the electrical cable was pulled out of the stay."

I can't find evidence of a "stay".

On the right side of the transformer, there is attached an unpainted section of flexible metal conduit (flex). It appears to be attached to the bottom side of the transformer with a 90 degree connector. I see no evidence that it is not secured to the box.

On the left, which I will presume is the low voltage output, appears to be some sort of white (painted?) piping assembly. It is attached to the transformer using some sort of tight radius 90 degree connector.

It is poor quality video.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (spsalso)

I can't find evidence of a "stay".

I just listened again and I think what he says is "clipped into place". It's a one hole strap.
It looks like the flex was damaged and got replaced but the new one was too short and didn't reach the strap. The connector is NOT considered support.
On the left is typical non-metallic liquid tight conduit and 90° connector. I'll bet they forgot the ground wire too.

348.30 (a), FMC (flexible metal conduit) shall be securely fastened in place by an approved means within 300 mm (12 in.) of each box, cabinet, conduit body, or other conduit termination and shall be supported and secured at intervals not to exceed 1.4 m (41/2 ft). Where used, cable ties shall be listed and be identified for securement and support.

So yeah, typical "handyman" poor workmanship.

Jeff was also way off on the location. There is no corner parking spot in the area he was pointing to.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

He was assuming that anything electrical such as this box would be centrally located. I would venture a guess that this transformer could be anywhere because it only 1 1kva max. Not enough for a blow dryer.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Nukeman948,

Your comments got me looking again at the video, and I have now seen the strap. That implies that an earlier installer was much more competent than the final one.

I do wonder how it came about that the flex needed replacement. Usually it's the transformer than needs replacement, and you re-use the flex--just swing it out of the way, to the right.

So, where in the garage would there be a need for a small transformer, and also be near a pipe that might leak some sort of liquid? Certainly the walls weren't covered with such pipes (or transformers). And the pipe WAS located at a wall, though it could have done other things in the unexamined area higher up.

I still think this transformer was providing low voltage for something related to the planters.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (zebraso)

Not enough for a blow dryer.

Doesn't make much sense to assume most electrical stuff would be centrally located to me. No logic to his train of thought. Especially when we know the main electrical room was in the North-West corner.
8.3 amps @ 120v is plenty of power for an automatic lawn sprinkler system. Nothing but timers and solenoids in those older systems. They often ran 3/4" white PVC distribution lines too. What does that "T" look like to you? A solenoid perhaps?
Only one place with a corner parking spot that I see on the drawings. North-East corner.
208v 20 amp three phase power for the exhaust fan in that same corner would leave plenty of excess current to feed that transformer. Perfect location for a sprinkler system for that nicely landscaped BBQ area to the East of the building.
All speculation of course.

Edit: Another pic... Flex, wires and some boxes but no pipes or transformer.

#### Quote (spsalso)

I do wonder how it came about that the flex needed replacement.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

I don't know anything about the property laws in Florida but my property line is actually the center of the street and the city has an easement for the street and all the utilities that pass my house. I can landscape right up to the edge of the street as long as it doesn't create a safety hazard for motorists but they won't replace my daisies if they need to dig up the water line.

If CTS's real property line was the center of the street it may explain why 87 Park wasn't able to build right up against CTS's sheet piles and why they were required to rebuild a public sidewalk access to the beach on the old easement.
So did only one city own and maintain this street or did they share that? Were both cities required to sign off on the sale of the street? Is the city responsible for the water problems caused by it's sidewalk? Seems like some real murky legal issues need to be resolved before the other blame games can continue.

I fought the law and the law won.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

I know CTS had THEIR city building inspector come around, who essentially said "It's not my jurisdiction." He MAY have been otherwise unhelpful. Or he may have suggested other routes to ease their concern.

Did anyone at CTS think it appropriate to get an engineer's opinion on problems they could encounter with the neighboring construction?

If so, what did that engineer say?

If not, why not? Was it considered not important enough?

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Nukeman948)

If CTS's real property line was the center of the street
Understood. I just checked it is at the CTS southern wall.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA)

I just checked it is at the CTS southern wall.

Is there any chance you could check to see who owns that public sidewalk?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

8701 Collins

Here is legal description on 8701 COLLINS AVE CONDO. Looks like 6 lots, part of erosion way and adjustments to Blocks 1 and 10, plus 50 ft road closed. Would need to look at plat books, and deeds cited below to see full details. But it appears City Sold Right of Way of Road from this. Perhaps public access is an easement on property?

ALTOS DEL MAR NO 2 PB 4-162
LOTS 1 THRU 3 INC BLK 1 & LOTS 1
THRU 3 BLK INC BLK 10 & PORT OF
EROSION WAY LYG BETW & ADJ TO
BLKS 1 & 10 PER PB 105-62
& 50FT RD LYG N & ADJ CLOSED
PER RES #2014-28608 & 2014-28839
AS DESC IN DECL 31691-1664
LOT SIZE 101179 SQ FT

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Is the West edge of that property shown in the aerial photo actually running down the center of the sidewalk? So does that mean it has been confirmed that the property line is not the center of the street?
Is that considered good enough for legal work in Florida?
Were all the laws adhered to in the sale of a city street to a private entity?
I seem to remember some of those issues haven't been fully explored in court yet.

Call me skeptical.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Skeptical, The aerial photo looks like property line is running along North edge of sidewalk to me. If you click link and go to their GIS map site, you get a lot better image than that to look at.

In my state, property lines are typically not the center of streets. In plat mapped residential sub-divisions the street Right of Way is say 50 feet wide, but road is only perhaps 30-35 feet curb to curb. The other 15-20 feet are divided evenly on each side of road and are basically used for utilities. So property lines for lots are typically not at curb of street but 7-10 feet past curbs. So you end up maintaining part of the right of way for the city.

Definitely some shady dealings went down, and I expect it to be interesting legal battle.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermopyle2.1)

The aerial photo looks like property line is running along North edge of sidewalk to me.

No. I was talking about the WEST edge that runs along Collins Ave. But then your other image shows the property crossing the city limits into Surfside on the North. Not sure how that works. Really doesn't matter, it's not going to get resolved here.

I know if I don't mow that 15-20 feet of lawn along the street, the city will come do it for me and send me a bill.

Call me Skeptic Al.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Skeptic Al.)

I know if I don't mow that 15-20 feet of lawn along the street, the city will come do it for me and send me a bill.

I assume the city just has easement on your property, thus you are still the owner and have to cut the grass? I know here, if the lot is vacant, and a complaint is filed the City will cut the right of way grass in front of vacant lot and not charge the land owner, since the land belongs to City. But I do not know what would happen if I quit maintaining the ROW in front of my house for the City. Perhaps they would come cut it too as it is their land, but I am not aware of anyone who has tried not cutting the ROW on a developed lot.

My guess is City would cut it on developed lots too, but it would NOT endear the land owner with the Power Brokers at City Hall?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

@Thermopyle2.1, thanks for finding and sharing that information. I like it.

I started from here: Link, zoomed-in and clicked on the location. But it's not as user-friendly.

The GIS version you shared has more features and information, but the land use data is different. It still shows 87 Terrace as a road.

#### Quote (Thermopyle2.1)

But it appears City Sold Right of Way of Road from this.
The story I heard was that sale of public roads was not permitted so it was given in exchange for a cash donation.

#### Quote (Nukeman948)

Is the West edge of that property shown in the aerial photo actually running down the center of the sidewalk?

Looking at Google street view. The width of the sidewalk was approximately doubled when 87 Park was built. The property line aligns closely with the original sidewalk.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Nukeman948)

So does that mean it has been confirmed that the property line is not the center of the street?
Is that considered good enough for legal work in Florida?

As an engineer. Did you know it was engineers week? I would say that the data available in the public copy of the official record indicates that the beach access path entirely crosses the property referenced by Folio: 02-3202-165-0001, which is abutted immediately to the north by the property previously occupied by CTS and referenced by Folio: 14-2235-025-0001. As such, as far as public records show, there is currently no publicly held land located between Folio: 02-3202-165-0001 and Folio: 14-2235-025-0001.

#### Quote (Nukeman948)

Were all the laws adhered to in the sale of a city street to a private entity?
I seem to remember some of those issues haven't been fully explored in court yet.

Good question. I completely agree.

#### Quote (Nukeman948)

If CTS's real property line was the center of the street it may explain why 87 Park wasn't able to build right up against CTS's sheet piles and why they were required to rebuild a public sidewalk access to the beach on the old easement.

I suspect the Miami Beach council was simply under pressure to maintain public beach access, but from what I can see, they still transferred the entire piece of land previously occupied by 87 Terrace to the owners/developers of 87 Park.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

2

#### Quote (IanCA)

As an engineer. Did you know it was engineers week?

Yes, it seems everyone has a manufactured holiday based on their job title to make them feel good about themselves and forget they are nothing more than a cog in someone else's money machine. When the cogs are worn and out of spec they get tossed in the scrap bin with all the rest of the used up dregs of the world.

There is no children's day because every day is a holiday for children. There is no holiday for retiree's for the same reason. Cogs that are not yet useful and cogs that are no longer useful. And the useful cogs and the machine owners have no use for either one.

If you build your own money machine you will find an ample supply of cogs looking for a place to fit in. If you work the machine too hard, some cogs will break from the stress and some will be ground to a fine powder. But churning out money is the only freedom that they know. Slaves to someone else's empire of greed.

And yet we keep building larger and larger machines. Soon we find Cogswell Cogs and Spacely Sprockets are competing with each other to have the largest money machine ever imagined. Rakes and shovels and implements of destruction to scoop all that money into the largest pile of money that man has ever known.

I have no idea where I was going with this and no idea why you thought a made up holiday was relevant.

Welcome my son. Welcome to the machine.

Is this question rhetorical too?

For longer life, keep your backlash within spec.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Nukeman948)

For longer life, keep your backlash within spec.

Is this creative writing or has a Sparky set up ring and pinion gears in a differential?

What I would like to see if the complete deeds and plat maps posted on line from before current 8701 Collins owner purchased property and tore down existing building, coupled with before and after ROW transfer from City to current 8701 Collins owner, and today's plat maps and deeds.

In my County and City all this information has been digitized and these public records can be accessed on line, rather than the old method of going to county record room to manually research deeds, mortgages, plat map, etc. records. At least ours are digitized back to around 1990 time frame. Beyond that manual look up still required.

I could not find access to actual deeds and plat maps for Miami-Dade on line, where we could see complete legal descriptions of parcel's of land and how title was transferred on these properties over time.

Perhaps someone 'Dangerous' in the South Flordia area has access and would be willing to post this information???

These are public records, and yes you may have to visit the real estate property room to copy the information, if there is not an online digital access in Miami-Dade?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Nukeman948)

nothing more than a cog in someone else's money machine,

Perhaps that's why I feel it important to be here.

#### Quote (Nukeman948)

no idea why you thought a made up holiday was relevant

Maybe I was just testing to see if you were an engineer or a philosopher or both.
Not relevant to this collection of threads, but to the site in general?

Thank you for your profound and thought-provoking response. I tend to agree.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermopyle2.1)

What I would like to see if the complete deeds and plat maps posted on line from before current 8701 Collins owner purchased property

Agreed, that would be very helpful. Let's hope something turns up.

I will soon get back to clarifying the possible sequence of events as I see them with a diagram and some more information. This weekend I hope.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA)

Maybe I was just testing to see if you were an engineer or a philosopher or both.
Not relevant to this collection of threads, but to the site in general?

WOW, I seem to have my very own groupies. Strange days indeed. Most peculiar even.

Maybe I'm not an engineer.
Maybe I'm not a philosopher.
Maybe I'm not some random idiot on the internets.

#### Quote (thermopyle2.1)

Is this creative writing or has a Sparky set up ring and pinion gears in a differential?

Like you, I have received training in multiple disciplines. Master of none as they say. But don't sell me short.
When a person is not obsessed with money they are free to pursue whatever their heart desires.
But with some people it's "All About Money". AmIright?

I'm new here, are you with the banned?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Nukeman948)

Like you, I have received training in multiple disciplines. Master of none as they say. But don't sell me short.

Trust me, I would never sell you short based upon your post showing an obvious broad background! I was impressed with your Jetson enhanced post and how you knew about gear backlash!

It brought by memories from childhood cartoons coupled with auto rebuilds that most have never even thought about!

You earned another Star!

BTW, I did not know answer to your West sidewalk question, however it could be 87 Park just wanted wider sidewalk in front of their Spaceship 🚀?

Finally, Netflix has a documentary film, ‘Downfall’ explaining how ‘All About Money’ culture change was behind 737 Max MCAS criminal coverup and failure by Boeing, after McDonnell CEO took over joint company. It shows how good engineering culture gets replaced with short term Stock Price focus.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA)

I will soon get back to clarifying the possible sequence of events as I see them with a diagram and some more information. This weekend I hope

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

2
Thermo, If I recall correctly, that sidewalk should be property of Miami-Dade Public Works.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Demented, thanks for your response. I think what Nukeman was asking was why side walk was widen on East side of 8701 Collins Property line as shown on GIS maps I posted. Clearly anything west of their property line is Street ROW. In my state, there are no utility easements at street on my property, only on sides and back for U&D. At street ROW stops at property line.

Edit: Perhaps Nukeman will confirm if I understood his question correctly.

Edit 2: I must say I am impressed that you got 2 Stars for answering the question incorrectly! That is impressive.....

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

I was just a little late on replying to something, I think. Shutdown is coming up, oh joy. Days have blurred into weeks.
It's an easement for that vacant lot owned by the Public works that is essentially public beach access. The town sold off the road only, but not the easement or beach access lot. 87 park developers would more than likely have "permission" of some sorts from Miami-Dade to renovate their property so long as it all fell in line with code and permits.
Folio 02-3202-006-0670

Maybe it was nukeman who asked. *shrugs*

Anyway, yeah, sidewalk is owned by Miami-Dade Public Works.

Edit: If gold stars in Kindergarten were this easy to get, I might have gotten somewhere in school.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Demented)

The town sold off the road only, but not the easement or beach access lot.

Thank you.
The public beach access, who owns it and who is responsible for it, was the point I was trying to get clarified. I only mentioned the Collins Ave. sidewalk to point out that the information, as presented, did not seem likely to be accurate.

Miami-Dade County provides this website as a public service to its residents and visitors. The County is continually editing and updating GIS data to improve positional accuracy and information. No warranties, expressed or implied, are provided for the positional or thematic accuracy of the data herein, its use, or its interpretation. Although it is periodically updated, this information may not reflect the data currently on file at Miami-Dade County and the County assumes no liability either for any errors, omissions, or inaccuracies in the information provided regardless of the cause of such or for any decision made, action taken, or action not taken by the user in reliance upon any information provided herein.

Trick question of the day: How many links does a chain have?

"If it was on the internets, it must be true".

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (demented)

Anyway, yeah, sidewalk is owned by Miami-Dade Public Works.

Demented, Municipalities don't own easements. Easements are NOT ownership in land, but right to use that part of someone else's land. Right of Ways are owned by Municipalities. It appears that West of property line has to be ROW, and East of property line on Collins has to be easement if city is using for utilities and such.

Edit: Or as Nukeman now is saying, the data base is CRAP!

Edit: Nukeman's original cryptic question was concerning only sidewalk along Collins avenue in the question I was referring too. I was NOT talking about Beach Access.

This is a prime example of why this forum is a waste of time for all of us, on this kind of stuff. It is like texting vs talking to someone directly, in that a lot of context is lost.......

PS: Whoever gave you the 2 Stars reminds me of the old saying, "Ignorance is Bliss"......

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermopyle2.1)

Here is a diagram indicating what I believe to the approximate sequence in which elements of the parking deck, pool deck and building support columns failed.

The positions of most of the cracks in zone one are taken directly from photographic evidence, but some are inferred.

With reference to MaudSTL's timeline summary posted on 3 Feb 22 17:50.

I believe the failure of zone one occurred relatively slowly and agrees with timeline item 2 (banging heard from 11PM onwards increasing in intensity) until the southern extremity of the deck detached from the wall. That could coincide with the loud crash described in timeline item 3. I believe that area of concrete was very degraded and could explain the dust.

I believe the collapse of zone two occurred fairly rapidly due to the forces involved as an increasingly larger area of the deck begins to fall. This could likely coincide with the very large crash described in timeline item 5. I have added a letter suffix to indicate the relative time of the collapse. The progression is generally from south to north but the collapse of the eastern region is delayed slightly until it finally reaches the wall at 2E.

I'm interested to hear comments. I can explain the sequence in more detail and I still need to explain why some areas of the structure are exposed to more salt than others.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA)

Suggestions welcome.

Good start on graphic depiction. I would suggest adding column labels from original CTS drawings to make discussions of a particular column easy to reference. Perhaps add legend with timeline events to label those on drawing as well. One graphic could tell a lot of story.

I am interested in complete decay theory in Zone 1 causing loss of steel grid or concrete deterioration in that area.

More description of what is happening on time clock at each column or area would also be inciteful.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

It is impossible to have an honest discussion with a dishonest person.

I made a small change to my name as a joke and changed it back.

When I used one of Thermopile's aka thermopyle2.1, and Thermobaric's aliases "All About Money" he feigned ignorance.

He created a new account with his old screen name after abandoning his old account under the alias "gonefishing2".

What is he trying to hide with multiple accounts and constant name changes?

I'm not sure what his motives are and I have no reason to accept any explanation he may offer. The same goes for his two friends.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Nukedude948 or Nukeman948 or whatever your current display name is)

It is impossible to have an honest discussion with a dishonest person.

When I used one of Thermopile's aliases "All About Money" he feigned ignorance.

He created a new account with his old screen name after abandoning his old account under the alias "gonefishing2".

I'm not sure what his motives are and I have no reason to accept any explanation he may offer. The same goes for his two friends.

So I assist in answering your question with true facts, and because you don't like the answer you attack me, and make false accusations rather than simply googling definition's of ROW's and Easements to confirm that what I said is the legal definition of those terms, and you don't even mention your question about property line on West side splitting new wider sidewalk.

Fine, I was done anyways because of the agenda's of some of the folks like Nukeman948 that add no value....

To my apparent two friends, as per Nuke's False Accusations, whoever they may be, I wish you luck if you choose to continue on.......

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

@thermopyle2.1 Let's keep going.

#### Quote (thermopyle2.1)

I would suggest adding column labels from original CTS drawings to make discussions of a particular column easy to reference.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

2

#### Quote (thermopyle2.1)

Perhaps add legend with timeline events to label those on drawing as well.

Timeline by MaudSTL.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA)

@thermopyle2.1 Let's keep going.

I would like to see construction joints noted in different color on your graphic, perhaps a dashed yellow line? The one on East is not shown, however it appears the white straight lines that cross at K15 are construction joints?

I have a hard time following flow of progression from 2A. I would like to see notations beyond 1,2,3 A,B,C,D like .column labels thru .column whatever extensions showing progression flow at each involved column. I clearly see spread for example from 1 to 2A, but as to why different pieces fall in sequence beyond that, it is nor clear. I think it takes narrative to go with picture and perhaps photo thumbnails referenced to logic to tell story.

Good work and I hope you continue with your attempt at explaining the puzzle.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermobaric)

I would like to see construction joints noted in different color on your graphic, perhaps a dashed yellow line?

Agreed, that would be a good addition, but I'm not sure about the locations of some of those construction joints. Do you know if there is a drawing anywhere showing them, please?

Yes, the narrative is important but it will take me some more time to put it together.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA)

Do you know if there is a drawing anywhere showing them, please?

All I have seen is the construction 🚧 joint section view in the original drawings. I have not noticed locations of joints identified.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Building Intergity's Latest Video talking about Proposed Florida Condo Law Changes

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Nukeman948 (Electrical)27 Feb 22 14:51)

It is impossible to have an honest discussion with a dishonest person.

I made a small change to my name as a joke and changed it back.

When I used one of Thermopile's aka thermopyle2.1, and Thermobaric's aliases "All About Money" he feigned ignorance.

He created a new account with his old screen name after abandoning his old account under the alias "gonefishing2".

What is he trying to hide with multiple accounts and constant name changes?

I'm not sure what his motives are and I have no reason to accept any explanation he may offer. The same goes for his two friends.

Nukeman948/Nukedude948's “RULES FOR THEE BUT NOT FOR ME” MINDSET

I guess one could ask why does NukeDUDE948/NukeMAN948 use a unique signature block on all his posts, but then I just consider the source and the answer is clear..........

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

From Mr. Porter's video, the proposed "initial" inspections (as required by potential new law, discussed) could be carried out by an architect. I wonder how Friedman would have approached this task if called upon to review CTS.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (spsalso (Electrical))

From Mr. Porter's video, the proposed "initial" inspections (as required by potential new law, discussed) could be carried out by an architect. I wonder how Friedman would have approached this task if called upon to review CTS.

As far as design architects or even design engineers, Josh Porter, made it clear a pure designer is not qualified nor has the right experience and skill set to perform Milestone Structural Inspections and design Structural repairs. He even went on to say he specializes in the inspection and repair side, and does not feel qualified to design say a new 10 story building.

His point being, Milestone Structural inspections needs to be performed by a qualified engineer specialist, not a pure designer, and conversely.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

From Florida Senate bill 1702:

(starting at line 195) "For phase one of the milestone inspection, a licensed architect or engineer authorized to practice in this state shall perform a visual examination...and provide a qualitative assessment of the structural conditions of the building"

(line 205) "If the architect or engineer finds no signs of structural distress...phase two of the inspection...is not required."

Mr. Friedman was an architect. He would have been permitted to do phase one of the milestone inspection of CTS. If he found no problems, there would be no need for a more in depth phase two. Since he was probably more familiar with the building than any other architect, it would make sense to choose him to do the job.

For that matter, it looks like Breiterman would also have been "on the list". Another good choice, since Surfside approved of him inspecting his own work, rather than finding someone else.

And we know how good a job Friedman and Breiterman did. I'm sure they would have kept on doing following work to that same standard.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA)

1=Banging from 11 PM…

I just wanted to clarify that 11 PM is the earliest report of banging that we currently have, because that’s what time Chani Nir got home to 111. The banging may have begun before that time, but we have no statement to confirm what time it started. We don’t know, for example, what time Security Guard Shamoka Furman came on duty in the lobby, nor do we know if she was able to hear the banging too. If she was able to hear the banging, it might help us to know what time she began to hear it. If she heard it during her entire shift, then we ought to find out if the guard on duty in the previous shift also heard the banging, and, if so, what time they started hearing it,

I am scheduled to meet this coming week with Dr. Ganapati of FIU, who has joined the NIST team to work with witnesses, among other things. I will do my best to bring to her attention questions like these that would be helpful to get answered.

>>>>>Edit. I think another detail that would be good to know is which space the Vazquezes parked in. They arrived right after the loud crash at 1:10, and it would be good to know their likely line of sight as they walked to the elevator lobby.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

The banging may have begun before that time, but we have no statement to confirm what time it started.
Understood, thanks for clarifying.

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

I am scheduled to meet this coming week with Dr. Ganapati of FIU, who has joined the NIST team to work with witnesses
Thanks for letting us know. I wish you the best for your meeting.

I'm still trying to find time to work on the collapse sequence narrative and joint details.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Please also ask Dr. Ganapati how the inept rebar provision in Member 11 of the failed bridge was missed.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Thermobaric)

I uploaded the link to the Witness Statement Timeline to NIST on their data portal back on 8/19/2021.

If the active sub-team working out a collapse theory right now feels confident in their theory, it would make sense to share it with NIST, even if you want to use screen names for professional reasons.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Any updates on the other sister towers and if shoring is still there or what's been going on? When I was in Miami a couple weeks ago I really wanted to visit the sites, but figured it'd be a waste of time since I wouldn't be able to get in anywhere.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Again, the MH graphics are not worth the ink or pixels. They start with a premise that did not exist and continue down that rabbit hole on a lark that the neighbour brought down the tower.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Miami Herald)

Morabito and his team inspected Champlain South frequently between 2018 and 2021, taking photographs and writing nearly half a dozen reports noting the pool deck slab was in urgent need of repair.

Do we have all of those reports and supporting material?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

I agree MH modeling may be off base with their Assumptions, as they don't reflect 'As Builts'.

However, I find it very interesting that the 'As Designed' Model shows cracks in the areas of interest that seem to align very well with the current evidence we have, except for South Wall (which I have hard time believing we have the deflections in red they show along the wall, with it still standing?

So yes take it with a grain of Salt, but I don't think you throw the whole thing out either at this point.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Actually, it is better to throw out their model. MH can update their model to help folks understand how this building fell down and why theirs won't. Regarding vibrations from the neighbour, it is possible that it impacted Champlain Towers but it didn't cause CTS to be constructed in a way that it wasn't or lend credence to machinations that a concrete slab, regardless of reinforcing, has less strength than who knows what when continuously supported by a concrete wall. The complex stress patterns developed in a two way slab with a variety of support and stiffening elements are better visualized with a proper digital model than imagined.

Structural Madness's model, though also imperfect, lends better insight to this collapse. Note how the deflection across the 30' span creates a high stress zone along the south edge of the 13.1 columns and north edge of the 14.1 columns. This is consistent with the evidence seen regarding the planter and column 76.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Agree with you again, as I just thought of the water loading on top of the deflected slabs, and how much more load that added beyond any design calculations for dead weight and 'standard' live loads of so many PSF.

I guess what intrigued me was the linear crack in line E-W with Column I, which was NOT mid span.

Edit: I Yield! You are right! Yes Vibrations add a whole other complexity, even different from parking deck cycling.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

With an inch or so of sand under those large pavers on the pool deck, neither of which were in the original design model, they were added in 1996, I showed on one of my July videos how the sand layer beneath the pool deck can obviously retain a lot of water weight. Even days later after rain, it still would be moist with some water, adding a lot of weight at 8 pounds per gallon.

Every time it rains the dynamic weight load goes up and every time it dries the weight load goes back down. Seems to me like the slow-motion bouncing of a trampoline.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

I wonder if during a rain event, the 30' span had enough advantage to pull the other bays tight, thus amplifying its ability to collect even more water? Or in other words all the storm water made its way to the 30' span.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Interesting thought about water load on 30 foot span, and I would think so, and when it dried or leaked thru garage, it would have shifted the balance some the other way, which would appear to induce even more stress and cracking.

I also wonder if the E-W rebar was actually the final straw that broke the camel's back. Specifically the drop of the planter could have been the E-W rebar loosing it's grip at Column I14 connection. Once it lost grip, the other columns were already in partial punch and ready to go.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

About episode 11 (MH podcast) The narrator says part of the number 76 on the column has been "smeared off". I imagine that is in the sense of washed away or something. No. It is partially covered with efflorescence deposited by supersaturated water trailing down. The calcium carbonate just happens to be the same color as the white paint. What is on that number is the dissolved skeleton of the structure.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

No. It's deceptive seeing that long east/west alley but that's not how to analyze it. If you check the larger graphic on the video, you will see that the gradient is not as steep at the west end, therefore less strain. The 30' span is doing the heavy lifting with a particular stress point at the column edge.

Edit: I may have spoken to soon. The column you are looking at is misplaced in the model so it doesn't reflect CTS exactly but the results as presented are interesting.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

"With the flurry of news going on this week, did any of you notice that the City Of Surfside decided to kick in $2 Million also? I don't think they are named as a defendant in any lawsuit, but they wanted to do it and confirmed the vote the other day in a rare Monday morning vote" Of course not. Their Building Department appears to have done something close to nothing in ensuring that this building was properly built, but also accepted$40,000 in permit fees to ensure that it WAS. It just MIGHT be a little short, dollarwise. And then there's criminal negligence:

If you accept money to do a job (inspect a building during construction), and you don't do the job (by delegating the PE to inspect his own work), and people die because there were flagrant construction errors, does that not sound like criminal negligence?

I could be in error here in my assumptions, so please correct me if I am wrong.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Thanks stcbus.

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

Episode 11 of the Miami Herald’s podcast talks about the planters.
Thanks MaudSTL.

The statement that concerned me in podcast Episode 11 was this at 17:50: "This exact same area had been photographed a little over a year before, in April 2020, and in those pictures, there is no sign of the cracks, at all."

But when I zoom in on the April 2020 photo, there certainly looks like some signs of prior damage to me.

And I think the area that Josh described as 'blurry' needs further study to understand why the horizontal crack is not clear in that area. It doesn't look like any of the usual optical or digital artifacts. Perhaps it was another area with prior repairs?

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

I did not notice this localized sinking of planter area only, until this posting of the previous bondo repairs was pointed out. The whole area of planter has dropped like into a sink hole (for lack of better analogy).

So I will ask, could we have dissolved rebar grid in this area, which just happens to line up with column Line I14? We know we have a diagonal crack headed to this area from the parking deck.

So loss of a square of rebar grid/concrete failure in this area, could lead at first to localized drop.

Loss of grid in this area, would appear to start transferring load to surrounding columns. Which in this case are K13.1, K15, and I14. Which breaks the rebar tight rope in this area, and now 1-3 columns at once loose what little punch shear resistance rebar they had on at least one side of each column,

Boom!

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

“Catenary Stubs’. Got Love ❤️ It!

SFC, Outstanding Power Pointy! Now to digest

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

"Over the years" Five Years? I mean, the gravel of the 5 year old "walk" is flowing out where the anchor was? Maybe they trip-hammered the bottom of the CTS perimeter wall, when they trip-hammered the pavement (sidewalk?)? I've had a curb broken when the adjacent pavement was removed.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

So in the April 2020 photo, I see a pretty radical dip in the pathway coming out from between the two planters, and going left.

In the June 2021, it appears to be much less of a dip.

I am basing this on the helpful color lines overlaid onto the photos.

I wonder why that is.

spsalso

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

I may have missed it, has anyone suggested the directly that the April 2012 photo may have been taken to document slumping. The building manager has stated that near daily walk-arounds were done for the purpose of property safety. Let's give him a lot of credit for that much. He may have noticed the beginning of movement as early as April. What if we find out there were more photos of the same spot taken even earlier? I mean this is not a tourist photo that was handed to NIST when they requested them.

Edit: belaymylast 2020 not 2012

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

(OP)
This thread is approaching 400 replies. You might want to start Part 17.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Reference Fuchsia Arrows on SFC's Power Point Graphic.

As mentioned earlier, would failure at South Wall Under Planters actually cause the 'Catenary Stub Area' to initially move upward, until things let go? Basically the South Wall to Column K15 becomes a bigger lever arm load on the span between K15 and K13.1 for 2 weeks and 2 days?

Edit: Middle Span is 30 feet and much longer than adjacent spans, which begs the question, how in the world do you design a flat slab with same rebar everywhere and same slab thickness when spans are not equal? Looks like it was designed in that 30 foot span would deflect more than adjacent spans, thus providing 40 years worth of unbalanced stress on pool deck? Not to mention the various column sizes and layouts?

On the next two images below, are we seeing evidence of slab drop at South Wall? Note Dark base board like area at wall/patio deck joint?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermobaric (Military)19 May 22 17:11)

Good Questions!
please see the following from Josh (building integrity):
1. Engineering Failures Found in the Champlain Towers South Drawings - Surfside Collapse
(Toward the end, where he talks about the changes in the area of the valet parking planters)

2. Zeroing in on the Initiation of the Surfside Collapse

3. 16 Days Before the Surfside Collapse - The Warning Signs Were There

Thanks.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Thanks SFCharlie for those BI links. I watched parts of them again, and this time it sunk in better, I think.....

I added where roughly Column 76 is, and lowest point near that column from Survey Posted. This clearly shows why Column 76 was such a good drain path for deck, after perhaps the nearby cracks were epoxy injected.

Edit: Also shows 9.52 low spot on parking deck side of gate from pool deck, with 9.5 drain elevation nearby.

Edit2: I do find it interesting that Building Integrity has NOT linked the Pool Exhaust Fan Exhaust venting East along South Wall, as a probably contributor of accelerated corrosion and slab shear in that area of south wall. I did notice in BI's links provided by SFC, that on one of the original drawings he uses, the exhaust fan originally exited on the West Site of Planter Wall at South Wall, and not East as built.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Here is my first attempt to visualize the elevations.
As you can see, trying to draw contours was a disaster.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

The deck had much less variations in height 8/7/20 than say April 2020 Photo or June 2021 Photo. Per survey only about a 3/10 variation form high to low. Which is pretty good considering the two layers of pavers and sand fill. Problem is Finished Deck heights do NOT necessarily tell the exact story of the structural deck.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

It helps me visualize the elevation differences well, much like a contour map would. In some ways it is better to me.

Edit I assume the elevations in the planters is at bottom of planter, which indicates that there may be a layer or concrete forming bottom of planters that is on top of structural slab. Or some sort of elevated base inside the planter, perhaps part of a drain system, or maybe just the dirt level in planters.... Duh!!

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

If I did not know any different it looks like they were directing water from the entire pool deck to go through the gate and onto the non water proofed parking deck. Then maybe it was supposed to go to the street. I mean assume a drenching rain down pour in which the drains are overwhelmed. Is this the proper way to do it?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Moribato may have had his faults, but he did identify failure to provide slope in the pool deck as a major issue and indicated fixing it in his proposal.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

photo I saw of the pool and deck taken 36 hours before the collapse clearly shows a proper slope to me so I was always puzzled by Morabito's comment that there was no slope.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Structural deck vs pavers (maybe). This was just pointed out.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

What is the effect of directing water to a central point where the structural deck underneath is not sloped? Is that a "special" problem?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Zebraso, it's a bit confusing actually. The deck below might be sloped, and the pavers are also sloped so everything is OK. OR, the deck below might be flat and unsloped when the pavers up top made up for it by sloping the sand layer to create that 1/4" per foot slope.

But Morabito stated in his report the architect had a flaw in his design, of no slope. That is false because the floorplan clearly shows the slope in the 1979 drawings on that pool deck That is what I was puzzled about why he stated the architect scared that up when the drawings clearly show the slop in it. So we will never really know. Morabito provided no photos showing a flat spirit level on the actual as-built pool deck slab, to confirm his claim.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Things that make you go HMMMM. How many places has it been reported and repeated that the level deck is one of the original sins in the as built.

Edit: it's a bit unclear to be now whether the claim was that the structural deck has no slope or is insufficiently sloped as built. I'm not sure it matters. I mean the deck as constituted by the cores that were taken.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)20 May 22 00:40)

I don't know when the elevations were taken, or what the units are, but I assumed (Yes, we know what that makes you and me) inches. that would be only 9.8 to 9.5 = 0.3 inches slope across the whole pool deck?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

If you look at any of the drawings of the pool deck area, you'll see the deck field drains are about 20 feet from the pool, so we need 1/4" x 20 feet, which is a 5" slope from the pool down to the drain.

Also, if there is lippage between the pavers, that could inhibit the downward water flow. One of the great ideas Morabito had was to add grout between the pavers. This would, in my opinion, help reduce the amount of water going down between the pavers, as the grout provides a smooth pathway down to the drains for the water to run down.

BTW I am working on a new video covering some of this, and other item, the settlement, the lost first responder audio files, and some new theories I have on what could have caused the planter to crack in the Miami Herald photos

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Since I have been throwing around the term "structural deck" without reviewing the core samples I have revisit my characterizations.
Looking at the report on the cores I can see they have identified the structural slab, topping slab, tile and mortar layer (sloped), water proofing, sand and paver. Apparently the sand and paver are not actually in the core sample as shown even though they they are listed.
So I think what I should have said is structural deck, topping, tile and mortar, for the original slope - or what was under the water proofing.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer)20 May 22 01:46)

... when the elevations were taken, or want the units are, ...

The drawing is from Morabito's package for remediation. A note on the drawing states the elevation survey was conducted on 08/07/2020. Units are decimal feet as far as I can tell.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le (Mechanical)20 May 22 02:54)

decimal feet
Thanks. So .3 feet is about 4 inches, close to the 5" Jeff needed...

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le (Mechanical)20 May 22 02:54)

The drawing is from Morabito's package for remediation.
Do you happen to have a pointer to this file? Thanks

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Probably already been discussed, but looking thru SymPle's repost the South Wall Detail caught my eye. The only Section View I see where Morabito was planning to do repairs at South Wall, was the privacy part of wall on top of deck slab.

He just shows Patio Deck Slab, Edge Beam and garage wall as existing, with no indication of repairs to South Wall, other than Block Privacy Wall on top of deck slab.

This indicates no visible signs of problems when Morabito did his original field data collection to base repairs design on?

8.7.20 Survey also shows elevations good at South Wall.

Last page in SymPle's first attachment above.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le (Mechanical)20 May 22 04:49)

Thank you very much!

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermobaric (Military)20 May 22 15:03)

This indicates no visible signs of problems when Morabito did his original field data collection to base repairs design on?
8.7.20 Survey also shows elevations good at South Wall.
1. Maybe he did not dig out the gravel outside the wall?
2. The issue at the south wall is not that it dropped, it is that it release tension on the pool deck, allowing it to droop ("bend or hang downward limply.").

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

With the amount of corrosion shown in pictures after collapse, at South Wall, it seems there would have been more spalling of concrete in that area?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer) 20 May 22 15:30)

2. The issue at the south wall is not that it dropped, it is that it release tension on the pool deck, allowing it to droop

The issue of the slab dropping at the south perimeter is a product of the MH exposé.

The idea that it released tension is a misnomer as it never was tied in to the perimeter wall as though anchoring a tightrope.

#### Quote (thermobaric (Military) 20 May 22 15:03)

Morabito's idea of an edge beam would seem to be wishful thinking.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le)

The issue of the slab dropping at the south perimeter is a product of the MH exposé.
It appears to be in this photo.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

If I did the math correct the deck around the pool at the south privacy wall, at block column, on the West side of hot tub is 10.22 feet elevation, and like 3 feet away the elevation of finished top pavers is 9.94', or a slope of 3.36" over say a 3 foot distance, assuming 12" pavers.

I know they raised the finished paver floor height around the pool when they raised and rebuilt the pool edge gutter system.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le (Mechanical)20 May 22 16:05)

that it released tension is a misnomer as it never was tied in to the perimeter wall
His video clearly shows rebar broken at the slab wall interface, and in a few cases short rebars "zippered" from the slab? Farther back, we see full length rebar zippers.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Can the deck droop at south wall and the release of tension be separated. Let's say it drooped. Does it necessarily follow that it altered the diaphragm action in significant any way that led to an inevitable collapse. This might seem heretical. But there it is.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer) 20 May 22 20:36)

you missed the last part of the sentence. The tie-in is not intended to anchor a tightrope.

no

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le (Mechanical)20 May 22 20:56)

The tie-in is not intended to anchor a tightrope.
So, where does the tension of the deck catenary supposedly go?

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

This is not a tightrope, at least if its functioning as intended. A stiff slab will sit on its support and sag slightly, imparting a slight bending moment to the support if tied in, or toeing up slightly and pushing out on the support if not tied in. It's only when interior column supports fail that the functional aspect changes to the extent that it acts like a tightrope requiring tensile forces to be resolved with further design implications.

As far as my no answer, there is no such thing as drooping at the south support so it's a nonstarter.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Well then my question is overly convoluted to begin with. I thought it might be. There is such a thing as a bad question.

Add: incorrect premise. The assumption has to be the tie-ins broke after the collapse initiated. I am struggling to see a way around that.

Add more: It might help me in my mind to say there is not tightrope the spans the length of multiple columns. I mean I think at this point that is as ridiculous as can be. And then to say the deck between two columns is like a tightrope in two way flat slab? Seriously. What planet are we on?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

By my account anyway but I've been wrong before.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

It seems to me that if you throw out the principle of how two way flat slab works to explain how it failed then the explanation has already failed before it begins. And I imagine how that goes is: well it's in such a state that it no longer resembles flat slab and let's start from there. Well then the part about what caused it has been skipped over in order to explain it. I don't know though. It's just what it seems like to me. Somehow the long standing state of gradual decay supposedly changes the rules and it has morphed into a 7 headed beast? I feel like maybe Occum is knocking.

I'm not trying to put a damper on anything. Carry on.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

And area that appeared to drop into sink hole was a low spot, based upon drain locations and survey, and over loaded more.

The cropped image below, IMO shows movement towards the sink hole.

Edit: Actually rotation of planter wall may be more of the opposite effect, or indication of movement West at South wall end.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

I'm thinking about attempts at remediation. Clearly it was established there were multiple problems with the pool deck for a long time prior to the collapse. There were stalactites from secondary efflorescence. There were catch pans under the deck. There was spalling and cracks. The basement flooded. They injected epoxy, and tried to water proof the deck with a membrane and slope it to manage water better. These things failed. I just think that focusing on why and how they failed might be instructive. Was there a problem with the conception or implementation of the remediation? Conceivably if these things had succeeded in addressing the problems they actually saw, they would not have still needed catch pans under the deck in july 2020 and had water streaming down 76 in Nov 2020. Finally did the remediation actually make things worse?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Designed and built to fail in 15 years, and bondo’d to hide the defects

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Both aspects of that statements are worth evaluating. Maybe they were not outright intentions. Standards change, and things were done in error also. Bondo vs epoxy. Yeah you are probably right in some sense. If it was really 15 years in hindsight they did one hell of a job. I don't want to believe that though. IMHO if they would have fixed the deck it should have made it another 40+. Assuming no one set a sail boat on the roof . What is the most evident difference between the construction of the North Towers pool deck and the South?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Reminds me of lead acid batteries designed to fail sooner than warranty period, to hook you into taking your \$3 credit towards a new battery from same mfg/retailer, rather than punting them and buying another brand.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Well that's a scheme on something that's more or less a consumable. I don't know if that is cheating per se. Designed obsolescence is a real thing. But I can't think that anything in the construction of a mid-rise applies quite that way. When you cheat there it is a major crime. Radio Shack batteries were crap too and they got you back with the battery of the month club. But you accepted they were crap.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermobaric)

Perhaps there is way more than 5% BOTS in what is published?
On the subject of action figures, I do apologize to everyone who has contributed to this thread for my Feb 13 attempt at transformer humor and I very much appreciated the correct and humorous response from Nukeman948. I had searched for hours to find that product image (with the knockouts in the correct position) without success. I eventually became embarrassed about seeing the associated image I had posted so I flagged it myself and it was quickly removed.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Reverse_Bias)

It appears to be in this photo.
Absolutely. The elevation survey shows a change of 3.36 inches (10.22-9.94) between two adjacent points close to the jacuzzi and the wall.

Suggestions welcome.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le)

Morabito's idea of an edge beam would seem to be wishful thinking.
Agreed, and it doesn't acknowledge the presence of the sheet pile, which introduces discontinuities. The concrete is not bonded to the sheet pile in any way. Is it?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le)

Actually, it is better to throw out their model. MH can update their model to help folks understand how this building fell down and why theirs won't.

#### Quote (Sym P. le)

Structural Madness's model, though also imperfect, lends better insight to this collapse.

It appears to me that both models have significant deficiencies.

For me the most important criteria for both the Miami Herald and Structural Madness models are:
1) Are they based on reasonably accurate initial conditions?
2) Can they be developed in time, as the collapse of the deck progresses, to produce a similar arrangement of debris at the end?

The problems I see are:
a) Neither model appears to make provision for the construction joints that we know played a critical role in limiting the area of deck collapse and also played an important role in the geometry of the deck after the collapse. For example, the linear depression that runs East-West through the pool deck gate.
b) Neither model appears to include the 19"x19" penetration through the deck that was formed to allow exhaust from the pool equipment room to be vented at the corner of the pool deck.
c) The Structural madness model does not make any allowance for corrosion of the steel or degradation of the concrete and we know they are both critical factors in the collapse.
d) Neither model appears to include any provision for as-built, or as-repaired, conditions of the deck at the Southern edge, as shown below:

Credit to Construction Engineering and Failure Analysis for originally posting that clip.

e) Neither model explains why there would be a dramatic discontinuity in the deck between the pool equipment room exhaust vent and the gate. The area identified by thermobaric in the image above.

#### Quote (thermobaric)

area that appeared to drop into sink hole

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

@IanCA, I recently re-watched Jinal’s video of early August, 2021, and IIRC he verbally albeit briefly touches most of the contributing factors on your list, including some construction joints, corrosion, concrete, and maintenance failures…but not the deck penetration. It would be great to see a follow-up from Jinal to look in greater depth at contributing factors.

The MH model is, in my view, more take-it-or-leave-it. Having a background in theatre (rigging) and outside-plant telephone engineering (pole setting and guying,) I am skeptical of the tightrope and compression theories for the south wall and don’t put Jinal’s failure model in the same class as the Miami Herald’s. Plus Occam’s Razor.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

IanCA, In no way was my >5% BOT analogy in published information related to your transformer post. Since you took it that way, I deleted that post.

When I duck 🦆 go’d - ‘BOTS’, the Green BOT was 2nd imagine displayed, so I used it.

Edit: Rather my post was referring to disinformation, destruction of evidence and cover up of evidence.

Since IanCA, posted the image of the exposed top of sheet piles in area of interest, I have gone and watched some of Construction Engineering & Failure Analysis’s latest videos.

First a warning ⚠️, prepare a stiff drink 🍹 to assist in the painful experience of listening to this guy think out loud in real time, and ramble and ramble to drag things out.

The reward is, you will see images I have not seen before, and receive data you have not seen or heard before.

Filtering thru the noise, is a lot of information not being released by ‘The Ministry of Truth’.

Like evidence of control joint E-W along I14, and crack pictures, and discussion of problem with columns being offset from straight line and the possible effects of that.

We are missing so much information that is being shared to this guy, that leads you down a better understanding of what may have happened.

Edit: No Pain - No Gain

Edit: Have run into some of his videos that say they are private, so I login to youtube and then it tells me they are unavailable. So information is being concealed, by youtube, for some reason, as author claims it is not him doing it.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

It would be great to see a follow-up from Jinal to look in greater depth at contributing factors.

I completely agree.

What I would also like to see is his analysis developed past the point where the column which he identifies as the weakest, punches through the deck. In which sequence do the remaining deck support columns punch through? Does the collapse progress to the Southern wall? Does it result in the dramatically different final conditions we see at the wall East and West of column line K? If not, modify the initial conditions and repeat the analysis from the beginning.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

@thermobaric Understood. Thank you anyway.

#### Quote (thermobaric)

The reward is, you will see images I have not seen before, and receive data you have not seen or heard before.
Agreed.

#### Quote (thermobaric)

the image of the exposed top of sheet piles in area of interest,
I'm interested to hear what others think but I think the feature highlighted in the image in my 21 May 22 05:30 post is closely spaced rebar rather than the top of the sheet pile.

Cheers.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

I am skeptical of the tightrope and compression theories for the south wall

Agreed. Especially considering the condition of the deck-to-wall connection at the Southern wall between column lines G.1 and K.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (SFCharlie)

Here is my first attempt to visualize the elevations.
Thank you very much for taking the time to do that work SFCharlie, it is helpful.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA (Mechanical)21 May 22 05:30)

Photo
Quote (thermobaric)
area that appeared to drop into sink hole
Since the responders are looking over the wall at the debris, I assume they are standing on the gravel that the construction to the south replaced the street (and walk?) with.
The exposed rebar seems to me to imply that the construction changed the structure of the wall.
I bet they didn't analyze this.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Some more work in the South Wall Area:

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

We don't have any information to conclude that the dip is anything other than a surface feature. A 4" step stemming from slab deformation would be immediately apparent in the garage and alarmingly so.

Note the significant amount of sand (or additional topping) under the tile in the area between the hot tub and the pool. In the first image, it appears that the sand layer tails off to nothing.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le (Mechanical)20 May 22 22:35)

This is not a tightrope, at least if its functioning as intended.
Yes! That is not the intent!

#### Quote:

A stiff slab will sit on its support and sag slightly, imparting a slight bending moment to the support if tied in, or toeing up slightly and pushing out on the support if not tied in.
Yes! A properly designed slab and column design will function like this!

#### Quote:

It's only when interior column supports fail that the functional aspect changes to the extent that it acts like a tightrope requiring tensile forces to be resolved with further design implications.
I would have preferred to say "column connections to the slab fail", but yes!

#### Quote:

there is no such thing as drooping at the south support
Yes! The "drooping" in the slab, seems to have occurred between the wall and the first column, been worst over the 30 foot span, and between columns.

I apologize for not making myself clear!

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

I think I understood you, but it seems people don't connect with the vast difference in support that a continuous wall offers over a slim column.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le)

it appears that the sand layer tails off to nothing

Thanks for the photos. Do you think that was done intentionally to prevent rainwater from draining into the pool and hot tub, perhaps?

#### Quote (Sym P. le)

the vast difference in support that a continuous wall offers over a slim column
I agree with this in theory, but in practice, if design was weak (a single row of rebar at 12" centers, with minimal engagement), the construction was not well monitored (not considered a critical part of the structure), after years of corrosion, with regions bounded by construction joints, and the deck cracks as shown below (from thread 15), then the deck will be pulled from the wall.

Weak wall-deck connection:

Location of cracks and movement of deck matching photographic evidence (I hope you don't mind me using the version with your markup MaudSTL):

Edit: If the wall-deck connection was as strong as it should be in theory, why did it fail at all? I don't believe there is a mechanism that can achieve the tension cracks seen in the top of the stampcrete in the parking deck if the collapse begins North of column line 15. Can anyone sketch a sectional elevation showing the intermediate positions of the deck components that achieves those tension cracks in the top surface?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Unfortunately, from a physical standpoint, that sketch is not realistic.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le)

Unfortunately, from a physical standpoint, that sketch is not realistic.

Please can you be specific? I would like to understand more about your perspective and see if it can be improved at all.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

It needs a support under the proposed break on the right side of the image.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

IanCA, I am not sure exactly where in your section view the cracks area located. Perhaps you could add them to the image below, where I show clearly the initial dropped area in MH released phone aligns with 19"x19" slab cut out for pool exhaust fan, thus no continuous rebar attachment to South Wall in North-South Plane which is the 'heavy hitter' of the two way slab... Thus could explain a more localized failure at first, and be source of your crack propagation?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le)

It needs a support under the proposed break on the right side of the image.

That section of the deck is supported in cantilever by the columns to the north:

Remember the crack in the top surface in tension runs from the South-West at planter at column line G.1 to the North-East column at Column line K as shown in the diagram in my post on 27 Feb 22 18:29. Included again here for convenience.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermobaric)

Perhaps you could add them to the image below,

Approximately like this. With the section on column line I.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

And of course, there is a discontinuity E-W too, at 19"x19" Hole in slab.

A lot of Construction Engineering and Failure Analysis Videos are no longer available on YouTube, indicating the 'Ministry of Truth' had them pulled?

However, the recent ones I watched, suffering thru the noise, I did find nuggets buried in each once, which indicate that I14 and I 14.1 could be the center of initial failure area. He even showed Leman's Assumptions for her model that were way off, and drove the answer the model spit out. I see why you have to throw out the MH model now, based upon invalid constraints input into the model.

He also supports parking deck failing first, then patio deck, then building. He also makes an argument the insurance companies don't just settle out of court for a Billion Dollars without getting some benefit out of doing this. That being they would be able to raise insurance premiums drastically to recoup their payout.

He also shows NIST destroying evidence in a video, and dragging a rebar out of a sample they cut with jack hammers and sledge hammers. Also the fact they pulling samples in the wrong area, and had already destroyed the evidence in the potential root cause area, as if they had already decided what the cause would be.

Tough to listen to his videos, and you will need to keep your fast forward key warm. However, he is receiving information the general public does not have access to.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermobaric (Military)21 May 22 22:42)

A lot of Construction Engineering and Failure Analysis Videos are no longer available on YouTube, indicating the 'Ministry of Truth' had them pulled?
...
Tough to listen to his videos, and you will keep your fast forward key warm, but he is receiving information the general public are not being allowed to see.
He is excellent at seeking out info for his profession as a youTuber, but he hordes sources very close to his chest. I found this blog by searching with Google for his sources. His 'Ministry of Truth' is probably a copyright complain by the originator of his content.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermobaric)

He even showed Leman's Assumptions for her model that were way off, and drove the answer the model spit out.

Would you please link to that particular video? I’d like to try to listen to it.

FWIW, I listened to Kai’s early videos, quitting when he started focusing on insults received and starting fights with other YouTubers. But as I recall, he almost immediately after the collapse theorized that the locus of failure was the very area we are currently discussing, based on his construction expertise and analysis of how the punching shear scraped specific sides of the columns and how the slabs “butterflied.” I think Kai intuitively understands materials.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (MaudSTL (Computer)22 May 22 02:42)

I listened to Kai’s early videos

Are you speaking of Kai Kostack?

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Or this Kai

#### Quote (Construction Engineering & Failure Analysis)

4 months ago
I am working on a video series that will prove magnetic frequency and NOT gravity is what ''holds'' our planets together...

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Don't know why you bothered to link to him he's an unhinged narcissist. He bashes everyone. He thinks he's the only person with any knowledge on the subject, and he bashed Allyn Killscheimer, he bashed NIST, bashed Dawn Lehman, He bashed Josh, he bashed me, and he lied and told people on several videos I'm a tool salesman. He falsely accuses everyone of stealing his ideas, yet all he does is comment on my videos and Josh's videos and bashes everyone. He knows more than the top ex[erts in the field.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Don't know why you bothered to link to him

I completely understand that a lot of his comments are offensive and that is regrettable. But he does make some valid and important observations that should not be dismissed.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (MaudSTL)

Would you please link to that particular video? I’d like to try to listen to it.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

2
Are the images below a possible explanation for the apparent vertical offset at the planter?

Far view of planter:

Near view of planter:

Inside view of planter:

If you look closely at the gap you can see two branches emerging. Both have been torn off, the top one appears to have scrunched the paint up as it was broken off.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

@IanCA, thanks, I got it.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (MaudSTL and IanCA)

IanCA I appreciate you providing the link to Kai's video. I must say it is one of the easier ones to watch, and does contain logical conclusions from the evidence pictured.

I also stumbled upon the one where he gives you some perspective on how connected Michael and Cassie Stratton are to the White House, and casued me to duck duck go Michael Stratton. I will provide a quote from Michael Stratton's web site, and a link to it.

I leave it to the reader to come to their own conclusions as to whether this person's connections had anything to do with the large settlement for the individuals that lost their lives in the collapse. 'Quit quo pro' as they say.

Kai's message also could explain why NIST jumped in and took over the investigation, and that a Billion Dollar Settlement is reached on an unproved theory. I will also include an article from ENRsoutheast.

First a quote form Michael Statton's Web Site, and link:

"Distinguished Democratic strategist. Decades of on-the-ground campaign experience across the United States. Trusted confidant of business leaders and policymakers."

"Mike Stratton draws on his 50 years of frontline experience in Democratic politics managing campaigns and serving in senior government positions to shepherd clients through multijurisdictional policy issues. He served in top positions for 10 presidential campaigns, worked in the U.S. Senate, and served as an appointee in the Carter and Clinton administrations. Now, he offers clients keen insight into the interplay between federal, state and local policy arenas and advocates before all levels of government to advance industry objectives.

Trusted by mayors, attorneys general, governors and federal policymakers, Mike understands how to activate grassroots and grasstops organizations to achieve his clients’ business goals. He provides critical deal-specific consultations for domestic and international clients, negotiating sophisticated business deals, peace initiatives and foreign policy issues.

A leading voice in the hierarchy of the Democratic Party, Mike develops and executes strategies to achieve electoral victories for Democrats across the country. He has served as a member of the Democratic National Committee, and most recently, was reappointed by the Biden campaign.

A native of Durango, Colorado, Mike played an integral role in the successful campaigns of Sen. Michael Bennet (D-CO) and former Gov. John Hickenlooper (D-CO). He is active in state politics across the country and is considered the dean of advisors to the Democratic Governors Association and the Democratic Attorneys General Association."

https://www.bhfs.com/people/policy/michael-stratto...

Next the ENRsoutheast article:

https://www.enr.com/articles/54126-unproven-theory...

Edit: I think IanCA has identified that roots may have played a role in the separated planter corner, and perhaps that area had been trouble before and roots were cut back and it skimmed over and finally let go. I did see in some of Kai's video's where it clearly looks like the planters on both sides of the parking deck/patio gate were already sagging.

I would also like to note Kai talks about torque on two way slab created by columns that are offset and NOT aligned, and point out that the worst area in between K13.1(under East Planter wall) and K15 (parking deck west side of planters).

He cites ACI recommendations on column offsets and says design is not complaint even in 1979. I think SFC has a copy of those docuuments and could possible comment on that or provide confirmation of Kai's statements about allowable offset angles between columns on 2 way slab.

Edit: Link to some available Kai video's

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA)

Are the images below a possible explanation for the apparent vertical offset at the planter?[quote ]2IanCA (Mechanical)22 May 22 05:08

Yes, and an example of how only certain information leaks to control the narrative. So is this another Red Herrin Leak?
So per IanCA's graphic, the roots are raising one side of planter wall, while displacing East the other side.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermobaric (Military)22 May 22 15:10)

Quote:
2IanCA (Mechanical)22 May 22 05:08
Are the images below a possible explanation for the apparent vertical offset at the planter?

So per IanCA's graphic, the roots are raising one side of planter wall, while displacing East the other side.
I don't see anything about roots in IanCA's graphic?
The red ovals have been IDed as elastomer, possibly from a previous repair.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

The third long video, shows the crack on the East side of Column K13.1, which would appear to say not root or not just root damage.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Jeff Ostroff)

Don't know why you bothered to link

@Jeff Ostroff Let me know if you want me to delete my post with the link, please.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (SFCharlie)

I don't see anything about roots in IanCA's graphic?
The red ovals have been IDed as elastomer, possibly from a previous repair.
Thanks for your feedback SFCharlie. I will add further notes to the graphic.

I feel confident that the longer red oval contains a root or branch. It doesn't connect to other areas of elastomer, it has a different color, it has an outline suggesting fibers and less flexibility, and it extends from the crack, not the surface.

I did speculate about the contents of the upper red circle I cannot really see that clearly but I see the paint was scrunched up. That was possibly done by the object in the lower circle which sprang back down after being pulled up and broken off?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

On column 76, note that the column/slab connecting rebar is oriented in a north/south direction as opposed to coming off the corners at a 45° angle. It seems to be unique to column 76 although I haven't looked closely at all of the other columns yet. I'm not sure what, if any, weakness this may have introduced to the structure locally or on a broader scale but it's hard to ignore that things were going wrong at this connection prior to collapse.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P le)

On column 76, note that the column/slab connecting rebar is oriented in a north/south direction as opposed to coming off the corners at a 45° angle. It seems to be unique to column 76 although I haven't looked closely at all of the other columns yet. I'm not sure what, if any, weakness this may have introduced to the structure locally or on a broader scale but it's hard to ignore that things were going wrong at this connection prior to collapse.

To me in the photo, I see a bias in the South Side rebar to the West (towards parking deck), but mostly a straight down drop it appears

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

It's not about the rebar pointing down, it's about the compass direction, which should be off the corners at 45°. The falling slab would not (and didn't at any other column) reorient the direction of the installation. It would be a stretch to suggest that the rebar became twisted during the collapse. Nonetheless, it's a question of what if any weakness this introduced to the structure.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

The problem with rebar installation is that no one cares how good a job you did until the structure falls down and all of your crappy work is exposed for the world to see.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

In the photo posted by Sym P. le (Mechanical) 17 May 22 01:30, we can see the joint after it was picked apart, and behind that, what it was like before it was picked apart. there may be small roots in the joint, but roots can't explain the large displacement including in the deck.
Please review my diagram at SFCharlie (Computer) 19 May 22 14:33. Thanks

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (IanCA (Mechanical))

Are the images below a possible explanation for the apparent vertical offset at the planter?

You make a good case. This might be an example of people seeing what they are most predisposed to see. Confirmation bias. Those darn photos. An engineer looked at the actual site and said it was roots. Why is it so easy just to dismiss that?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Am I missing something here?

From the picture previously posted below, we know water was pouring down the South side of the column, so apparently already a crack on that side.

The compass heading to SW of that one rebar could be the tug from the parking deck area collapse?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Typical punching shear failures leave a piece of the slab hanging on the column head and more importantly do not cause damage to the column head itself. In this case all of the column heads suffered moderate to severe damage, even the one next to Jacuzzi that still had the back half of the slab attached to it.

I could picture 1 or 2 columns doing this but since it was every deck column, it points to a design or material defect in the columns as well as the slab.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

[quote thermobaric (Military)22 May 22 17:33]Am I missing something here?/quote]
You probably see that as the deck drooped over the column, it bent the rebar down. What's being discussed is that the rebar appeared to have been running north south before it was bent down. I remember posts and video showing that the rebar in the deck also only ran N-S, Not W-E as it should have in the before construction plans.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Reverse_Bias (Electrical)22 May 22 17:40)

it points to a design or material defect in the columns as well as the slab.
Yes. There was much discussion early on, that the columns were too small, with rebar too close to the surface.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Here's an interesting video I just found from Josh at building integrity which covers a lot of what has been discussed recently, it was actually released on May 16. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0UtmbRAL9M

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermobaric (Military) 22 May 22 17:33)

Am I missing something here?

Of course they are bent down but they didn't turn to the north and south form their installed NE/SE/NW/SW directions. They weren't installed in the designed orientation. Not worth three posts explaining if it was even worth one.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (Sym P. le)

Of course they are bent down but they didn't turn to the north and south form their installed NE/SE/NW/SW directions. They weren't installed in the designed orientation. Not worth three posts explaining if it was even worth one.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree with you, on this one, at this time based upon evidence reviewed. However, I obviously did not articulate well the kind of details that Construction Engineering & Failure Analysis is looking at for clues in his videos.

Edit: Better to just watch his video's, if interested and can tolerate them. He actually has gotten a lot better since the first one I saw on the New Orlean's HardRock Hotel Collapse. After viewing one then, I quit watching his channel, and avoided it totally, until the last new videos were mentioned.

I could not finish some of the videos I found either, and only posted ones I thought were better and made good points.

EDIT on Two Way Slab Column Offset: The link below quotes ACI 318-11, and says column offset shall not be more than 10 degrees. Again, I think SFCharlie has the ACI Code from 1979, and could perhaps confirm what it said in 1979.

Under limitations, "Column offset of more than 10% of the span (in the direction of offset) from either axis between the centerline of the successive column is not permitted."

https://theconstructor.org/structural-engg/two-way...

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Construction Engineering & Failure Analysis is saying the bar is torqued because of the horizontal angle between columns. i.e. the bar is not orthogonal to the stresses. I'm trying to digest that.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Unlike "kai" (funny, but I don't remember that was his name, when his channel was actually called "structural engineering and wedding photography"), I don't have people paying me to correct my mistakes, so I'm not looking it up. Y'all gona hafta take his word for it.

#### Quote (zebraso (Mechanical)22 May 22 18:39)

Construction Engineering & Failure Analysis is saying the bar is torqued because of the horizontal angle between columns. i.e. the bar is not orthogonal to the stresses. I'm trying to digest that.
I got bottle of Tums?

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (SFCharlie)

Unlike "kai" (funny, but I don't remember that was his name, when his channel was actually called "structural engineering and wedding photography"), I don't have people paying me to correct my mistakes, so I'm not looking it up. Y'all gona hafta take his word for it.

Haha! I actually saw one of his wedding cake video's too! He was proving something, perhaps about lighting in photography of a wedding cake???

I really have no idea what his name is, I just took MaudSTL mentioning Kai, and ran with it. Probably another BAD ASS_U_mption on my part....

Oh well, he needs a name since CE&FA is a mouth full.

Edit: Here is Structural Magazine Recommended details on offset columns. Spoiler alert, additional layer of rebar....

https://www.structuremag.org/?p=14580

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (SFCharlie (Computer))

I got bottle of Tums?

I'm stocked up on Prilosec, thanks. Not an endorsement. There's a reason why they want the tensile vectors to align with the bar. And I am sure there are plenty of scholarly articles on what happens if they aren't. I'm just trying to formulate in my mind what happens. I'm too lazy to look it up. For starters I am trying to imagine them at 45 degrees. I know it's bad though. I'm not working too hard on it though. And I don't have a slide rule in hand.

Edit: well having found that you must used finite element analysis in the design where the column offset exceeds 10%, I came to a halt. The gist of it I think is that you get a torsional component at the column strips. And it might mean that eliminating that beam was a particularly bad idea. Does that mean that whomever made that choice was bad at finite element? Inquiring minds and all that. This most likely has been looked at over and over at this point.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (zebraso (Mechanical)23 May 22 01:01)

it might mean that eliminating that beam was a particularly bad idea. Does that mean that whomever made that choice was bad at finite element?
Yes! It was a fatally flawed idea. Sorry, but we didn't have FEA back then, I was still working with a team to build a bad assed enough computer to run that "stuff?"

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

360 was not good enough?

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

#### Quote (thermobaric (Military)22 May 22 23:58)

Haha! I actually saw one of his wedding cake video's too!
It would have been funny, but at the time there were a lot more weddings and he was (mis?)representing himself as a structural engineer.

SF Charlie
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### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Think it's almost time for a new thread, this one takes forever to scroll.

### RE: Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 16

Someone Please close this Thread to new postings, or message me how to do this, Thanks.

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