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Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

and more news from CTV...
"Indonesian navy divers searching the ocean floor on Tuesday recovered the flight data recorder from a Sriwijaya Air jet that crashed into the Java Sea with 62 people on board.

The device is expected to help investigators determine what caused the Boeing 737-500 to nosedive into the ocean in heavy rain shortly after taking off from Jakarta on Saturday.

The 26-year-old jet had been out of service for almost nine months because of flight cutbacks caused by the coronavirus pandemic, officials said. It resumed commercial flights last month."

A sign of more things to come?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Wonder if some sort of maintenance item got overlooked during the cutbacks?

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

All else being equal, I would lean towards a de-mothballing step was missed or carried out poorly (e.g., anti-freeze not completely removed from a fuel/hydraulic line, etc.).

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

(OP)
https://www.businessinsider.com/sriwijaya-air-has-...

This airline accounts for 5 of the 58 total crashes reported for the entire 737 Classic production series.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Either the tail fell off or the elevators fell off. Or something broke. The plane seems to have been more or less in one piece when it hit the water so a bomb seems unlikely and no one has claimed responsibility yet.

This just suddenly went into a near vertical dive. Had been flying for about a month. Need to wait for the FDR if it's published.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

it may be a good time to be placed on the "no fly list"

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Like was said in the Max thread, "If it's Boeing, I ain't going" :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Despite the number of crashes involving 737s over it's very long period of service, and including the 2 very high profile crashes of the 737 MAX, the type is overall one of the safest airplanes ever made. If I were to make a list of airplanes that I wouldn't fly on, the 737 would not be on it.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

It's not so much about safety Brad.
As an example, there is a local farmer who has a very long history of bad dealing.
He advertised a piece of machinery for sale at a good price.
A buyer drove a couple of hundred miles to buy it.
When the buyer arrived, e increased the price.
The buyer went home empty handed.
He was selling hay by weight.
He declared the weight of the bales and refused to accept the weight from a trade-legal scale.
He baled hay wet and when a buyer came to check the quality, he would show him good hay from a different batch and then deliver the bad hay.
When farmers get together and talk about scams, the stories about this guy go on for a long time.
His character is well known over a wide area.
Few people will deal with him.
Even if it is a good deal, why take a chance on finding out a new way to be cheated?
He has shown his character and is not the type of person that a lot of people want to deal with.

Boeing has shown their corporate character and they are not the sort of company that a lot of us want to trust.
By the way, have they addressed the manual trim issue or is it still unusable when the plane is grossly out of trim, just when you need it the most?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

The manual trim issue was not addressed, mainly because it would mean too many changes and the FAA also discovered that there was no requirement for it and / or no maximum force required or number of turns required per degree change in the trim in the regulations, therefore they couldn't enforce a requirement where none existed(!!).

This was their excuse for a couple of other things that people had brought up when it came to recertification - no defined requirement therefore although it might be a good idea, they couldn't force Boeing to do it if the regulations didn't specify it.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

I am aware of that IR.
Thank you for clarifying that the issue has not been addressed.
It helps make my point.
No trust for Boeing and don't depend too much on the FAA.
The agency that sets and changes the rules has chosen to ignore this loophole?
Had the political pressure been different the rules would have been changed.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

(OP)
The fallacy is presuming that the only other major competitor isn't just as bad; they likely just haven't gotten caught at it yet. Let's not forget that VW, a European company purposely programmed their cars to pass emission tests, and that Airbus hadn't been exact proactive about their air speed sensors freezing up. While we humans have lofty goals and aspirations, we're still hardscrabble walking apes with personal foibles and vested interests that often collide with morality and good acts.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

LOL, from what I can see every big publicly traded corporation is about the same as Boeing. They all portray as being responsible caring companies, but it's just a facade. They all do whatever is needed to maximize their reported profits.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

If your interested the word on the street is that it was an Auto throttle clutch issue on one side which put the aircraft into an asymmetric power situation.

Which it is presumed the crew didn't spot or react to correctly. Apparently its hard to spot unless you have a habit of keeping you hands on the power levers below 10 000 ft. There are various systems which mask the symptoms with the automatics engaged until they run out of authority and then it all goes pair shaped very quickly. If the engine fails there is a master caution alert but in this case it doesn't trigger because there is still oil pressure but the engine isn't providing the commanded thrust.

If it is a AT clutching going this has occurred many times before and is part of the 3 year sim cycle exercises.

This will be mostly a human factors accident.

Just been informed that the oil pressure isn't in the master caution matrix on the 500.. Which seems a bit strange, don't have a clue if it is or isn't on the NG and MAX.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

OK, I can see how this wouldn't be good, but how does it result in the airplane diving into the sea?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Failure to apply corrective control inputs in a timely manner after the systems dump a very out of trim aircraft onto the pilot.

Apparently its a mandatory exercise during type rating. Which I have never done. But those that have tell me its quite aerobatic. And even when your expecting it in the sim pre briefed you will get 60 deg plus bank angles. If you are doing a normal line flight and the aircraft is clean and automatics are in you tend to drop down your monitoring and control covering so if you add in the startle and surprise human factors the reaction times increase dramatically which will vastly increase the deviation from controlled flight path.

The Jetstream AP used to do it to us when coupling to a ILS localiser. But that was with relatively low power settings with both engine symmetric. And we were expecting it to do it on every approach so it didn't come as a surprise.

We will have to wait for the pre report. The Indonesian accident investigation unit are extremely 737 knowledgeable and extremely experienced. I expect it wont take long for it to appear.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Quote (Alistair_Heaton)

If your interested the word on the street is that it was an Auto throttle clutch issue on one side which put the aircraft into an asymmetric power situation.

Quote (Littleinch)

OK, I can see how this wouldn't be good, but how does it result in the airplane diving into the sea?

Quote (Alistar_Heaton)

Failure to apply corrective control inputs in a timely manner after the systems dump a very out of trim aircraft onto the pilot... But those that have tell me its quite aerobatic.
This exchange brought to mind a new video I just saw and is a week old. This well known incident was not a 737 but a 747-SP, asymmetric thrust, and it wasn't the auto throttle clutch but a sluggish fuel control valve, made worse by crew errors. Autopilot was at maximums when the pilot took over not realizing the trim state the autopilot had the aircraft in.

I've never experienced 4.8 G. "Quite aerobatic" indeed!

First part is intro, commercial, and history of the 747-SP. Incident description begins at 6:20, ends 15:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gotTJlXMQc

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

To be honest its not definitely the clutch, there is engine bleed check valve issues as well which there has been an AD issued for. But a surging engine is relatively easy to diagnose and shut down without loosing control.

But that video describes the situation that they may have been in if the clutch issue did occur.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Ah, ok so the plane gets to a point where it suddenly flips on its back and dives upside down into the sea?

There is a fair bit of chatter out there on this based on a report form the investigators by the sound of it.

Some of the data from that china air flight mentioned sounds very similar in the it fell over 10000 ft in less than a minute.
The damage on that plane was really quite something.

for my information does the A/P only control the ailerons and the stab trim / elevator and not the rudder??

So how are you supposed to fly a twin engined plane with only one engine? With a fair bit of Yaw?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

You are getting into type specific stuff. Which I am not sure of so will only comment generally.

There is another thing thrown into the mix with a device called the yaw dampener which is there to stop a yaw roll couple effect called Dutch roll. Which will input rudder to control the yaw. BUt you get 1st 2nd and 3rd generation of them.

AP can be 1 2 or 3 channel depending if it has roll pitch and rudder. And then you get coupling between between channels so for example if the roll channel commands a turn the pitch channel will automatically lower the nose. This coupling usually defines if you can use the AP with one engine failed or not.

I would suspect the 737-500 the channels won't be coupled and it will have a 2nd gen yaw damper and don't know about if its got three channels but I think it can do autoland's would sort of imply it has 3.

Single engine you control the yaw with the rudder pedals and then trim it out with the rudder trimmer using the turn coordinator ball or slip indicator. Then every time you change power setting or speed you retrim it. And you need a lot of it, nearly the full rudder travel at approach speed and max power during a go-around. Every time you change the rudder you will need to change the roll trim as well. It sounds complicated but after you get used to it your hands and feet look after it and you don't really think about it.

The single engine stuff is done every sim session with multiple failures and GA's and is relatively easy compared to subtle failures when the engines continue to give some power but not all of it. As a general comment that doesn't I think relate to this incident Pilots are loathed to shut an engine down and sometimes keep them running longer than is really wise. Sometimes its better to just turn the engine off and then you have a clear cut situation which you have trained for instead of having to try and manage an engine which isn't doing what you want it to and you don't really know what its going to do next. But that's personal opinion and you will get extremely well qualified and experienced pilots saying the opposite saying never turn off a working engine. Turboprop drivers tend to want to get rid of engines quicker due to taking a huge performance hit with a unfeathered prop. Jet there is hardly any drag difference if any. The modern aircraft take this decision process away from the pilot mostly because the checklists usually lead you down the path to engine shut down with any control issues. I think its only a couple of things such as engine vibration which will allow you to split the thrust levers and operate asymmetric with both still running but at different power settings.



RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

I am not shore if the engines on a plane like this have any resemblance to turbo engines on a smaller plane?
I remember reading when doing my own "investigation" that it can be difficult to realize that an engine has stopped by just looking at the manifold pressure inHg because the engine becomes like a "wind turbine "and will continue to maintain the pressure even though the engine is stationary.
But I guess planes like this have more monitoring systems to keep track of this if the construction is the same.
Or is it totally different in this case?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

turbine jet run a lot faster than piston. So we use N1, exhaust gas temp and oil pressure. But in real life the yaw.

Dead leg dead engine.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Okey.. Thanks
"Dead leg dead engine." ?? is this a referral to pedals and rudder, or ??
You lost me..

Best regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

yep rudder to deal with the power loss. Never lies

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

the leg rhats not pushing is the dead engine

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

smile Okey thanks..

How does it work now whit all the corona restrictions, when you work are you actually in the country when flying between different country's airports ?
Or is the transit zone like a no mans land?
I know this is a bit of topic but couldn't resist asking..
Have thought about it and I don't know anybody else that can answer.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Everyday is different rules

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

rhats ?? pip pip
I thought they were abandoning ships, sinking ships.
I guess aircraft are considered ships to.
I guess it means something else?

Everyday is different rules
Does it mean you can't always work or just have to stay on the plane ?

BR A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

every day 2 hours before the report I download the latest rules and read them and then during the pre-flight we confirm them and any specials/ The planes all stink of vodka with getting sterilised ever two flights. Its not a pleasant environment mask and purple rubber gloves.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Hmm purple, it must be hard .. they say smelling of alcohol inspires respect and appreciation.

Well some don't get to work so I guess you are still in a better position.
Hopefully it will be better soon.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

...they just hyperventilate a lot...bigsmile

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Quote (RedSnake)

rhats ?? pip pip
You have to bear with Alistair... it's not that English isn't his first language (or am I wrong?) wink, but it is his wont to contribute to this forum from the pub (a real one) after a long day's work, or so I surmise lol
I think for "rhats" you should read "that's", in this particular case cheers

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Well one can never be shore it can be some type of special airplane equipment, airplane tech slang for one, Gaelic, Scottish or some mix of that or you might be right smile
I hope you are right!
In that case lucky Alistair.
I would love to go the pub with someone and have a beer or two.... it been half a year since last time sad
It's not forbidden here they are still open, but now it's to cold to go out, and no one to go with.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Quote:

. it's not that English isn't his first language (or am I wrong?)
If the UK and the US are two nations separated by a common language, may we we view England and Scotland as one nation separated by an uncommon language? grin
Would Winston agree?
Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

My problem is lack of flying, Going from 7 days off a month starting at 5 am or finishing at 11pm. Alcohol tested everyday. To weeks between flights. And when you do fly its 10 days quarantine home alone. And just when you come out you go flying again. Then every 7 days the rules change. Getting across a border is stressful to say the least with sometimes a never ending list of required documents other times nothing. No pubs, no coffee apart from take away, arrested on the way home from work at the weekends if your out the house after 10pm without an essential worker cert. Doesn't seem to be making any difference to the numbers. But you can't start doing anything because your always on standby. And just waiting for the day they say we are reducing crews again. And I am sure my nasal passages are getting calluses with the amount of sticks getting fired up there. I am getting to the point I want a positive test then I can get a cert that means I don't need to bother for 3 months.

On an aircraft in theory you are in the country of registration of that aircraft but that doesn't always work and the covid stuff is very country specific just now. You should see the problems the shipping crews have. They are really screwed getting home.

We also lost a lovely colleague on Christmas eve.....

Anyway I am a dyslexic and English was never my strong point. I haven't lived in UK for over 10 years now and you develop an English as a foreign language style so your understood and my already poor grammar doesn't get picked up on and most of what I read is just as bad as mine. French written translated to American manuals :D

Anyway aviation lingo is a language in itself but we are lucky we didn't go down the German route. They can do half a page for one sentence a single word can be one line. I usually stay away from the three letter acronyms. You should see the TLA index in the FOM :D Flight operating manual Its 4 pages long with 48 of them per page. And there are 3 of these manuals per aircraft type all of them some 3500 pages long. I suspect the 737 ones are even longer.

There are differences in the aviation lingo either side of the Atlantic "dead engine dead leg" is "dead engine dead foot" across the pond.

Your not wrong Bill about the lingo between the two nations words can have completely different usages.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

I am sorry for your loss.

Quote (Alistair)

French written translated to American manuals :D
lucky we didn't go down the German route.

I have the habit of always saving the German manual if it is a German made device.
Even if I start of reading the English version or the Swedish on if there is one.
Because before the translations could be so bad that you could not be shore that what you read was correct and it sometimes didn't seem cohesive or made sense.
Then I could always read the German one instead then things starting to make sense, always correct smile
I remember one sentence it was 3 rows long and you must read it to the end before you understand it since the verb is usually last in the sentence you always need to read it twice to understand it but it is always correct..

I guess you have made a immune test first then ?
Since you still need to do Covid testing regularly.

Quote (Alistair)

Anyway I am a dyslexic
If you where "really" dyslexic you would not be able to write like that. thumbsup2

Language was never my strong suite either, I am much better with numbers.

Best Regards Anna




“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

We are going to get in trouble again for thread drift.....

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Okey ..

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Quote (AH)

and you develop an English as a foreign language style so your understood

We used to know some people from the ukraine, I'll always remember their EFL

Flatbar = pry bar
pictures machine = camera
f*ck, I kill you = I'm angry
big f*ck, this is catastrophe = uh oh.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Prelim report is expected to be on time on the 8th of Feb. And various bits and pieces have been shipped to the UK and USA including auto throttle quadrant. But the investigator is saying there was a change to the AT status but didn't say what. They are still missing the CVR data block. But managed to get the full FDR output which is the cut down 360 variables which is the normal for that vintage of aircraft.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Abbreviations?
AT = ??
CVR = ??
FDR = ??

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Auto Throttle
Cockpit Voice Recorder
Flight Data Recorder

The last two are commonly referred to as the "black boxes" even though they are in fact bright Orange....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

So assuming this AT fault flipped the aircraft on its side or it went completely over and was then diving into the sea on its back, how are you supposed to get out that?

Throttle back and rotate to get the right way up and then pull up hoping you haven't gone VNE?

It was still 10,000 ft to do something unless the initial action caused some part of the plane to fall off.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Thanks LittleInch

Yes orange is the new black winky smile

Best Regard A

PS. Hade probably been able to figure it out myself, but I have plowed through a lot of motor and frequency conv. manuals to day with M0, 100 K, 60 K, S1, S3, Mmax inv and tons of abbreviations.. sigh .. I think I have brain fatigue.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

LI, there were some unusual attitude/upset recovery training videos that were posted in one of the other 737 threads.

I think this was one of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35Zy_rl8WuM

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

I would hang fire on the AT being the issue for a few days.

And that's one of the best flight upset recovery training videos out there.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Seems its pretty much as we discussed here with asymmetric power but with the added factor of the aircraft turning towards the less powered engine which increases the yaw loading and secondary effect of roll.

Crew seem to have flown recently. And the training program looks normal In fact I think its copied from EASA.

The 737-500 is a dual channel auto pilot with second gen yaw dampener. Auto lands the pilots have to help out with their feet apparently or let it land in a crab. Which it has an ability for the gear to rotate to allow increased acceptable crab angles during touchdown.

They had weather to deal with and a low level level off as human factor distractions.

Just finished the second read.

Bit strange there is no FDR plots. Also its started out as a left turn but other data suggests it was in a right turn in the final moments.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Not really a lot there in 40 pages.

There's something a bit odd with the heading of this plane.

It looks like it started at about 045 degrees, they got to 8500 ft then asked for 075, but actually started turning left.

If they were doing this on A/P I guess they were rather surprised that they were going in the opposite direction to the one they wanted to.

suggests the differential thrust was more than the amount of rudder or roll that the A/P could apply??

Then at some point the A/P gave up (no explanation given) and the plane suddenly flipped over left at 45 degrees.

NO real information supplied about what happened next or why they didn't regain control.

I guess they are hoping to find the CVR module somewhere on the seabed.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

There is a disconnect of the AP when the servo's are over loaded So if its already turning one way unable to hold wings level and its commanded to turn the other it will let loose usually with a bit of a bang. It can't handle asymmetric roll loads at full power on one engine the other at idle. Don't have a clue what its cut out force is.

The yaw damper will be feeding in loads of rudder to the right to compensate for the lower thrust on the left engine. Which will add to the roll to the right.

You right though there is something odd with the report and lack of fdr data and detail of everything never mind the headings.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

An update they started using a suction dredger and managed to find the CVR memory module.

No news if they can read the data or not.

https://megapolitan.kompas.com/read/2021/03/31/125...

Here is a link to the story but its in local lingo but Edge translates it.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Just off the press, "The US Federal Aviation Administration has proposed requiring airlines to replace fuel system processors on Boeing 737 Max jets, citing problems with fuel shut-off systems. Boeing already addressed the concern in a 2020 service bulletin that described procedures for replacing a processor unit."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

It's all 737's due to nothing has changed since the 60's

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

I heard in the SR-71 manual it describes the side of the windscreen your head smacks is opposite the side of the engine failure.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

That is the indication on a lot of aircraft tug. My baldy head has bleed like a bitch multiple times in the simulator due to these reactions.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

It does seem to be a work environment issue to run simulations without a safety helmet sadeyes or is it part of the simulation to knock the pilots out to then see if they can handle the situation anyway. ponder wink

Happy Easter Greetings A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

We went through it in the 737 thread. There is a heads up display projector which has some rather angular lumpy pits with sharp plastic after they a have worn a bit. And certain exercises if your tall you head gets battered off them. We have way more room in the cockpit so don't get anywhere near the side windows.

Although an engine seize on the Jetstream used to leave bruising on your shoulders where the harness went. Thankfully never had that one in real life.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Okey Thanks.
Nicked my eyebrow ones when someone opened a door on me, people got hysteric and wanted to call a ambulans. lol
It bleeds like h.ll, even if it's just a tiny wound.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

An ex forcefully opened a door on my eye once, Anna... that's why she's an ex, I suppose winky smile

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

I gave one of my ex:es a blue eye once.
We worked in the same place, his colleagues and mine thought it was hilarious, they thought it was because he locked me in the bedroom 2 times! evil when he worked the morning shift and I worked afternoons.
So I had to call him and tell him to come home and let me out.
But nothing was true.
The third time I realized it was my Dobermann Evito who tried to open the bedroom door to get in by jumping on the handle after he went to work and the key was in the lock, so he missed and turned the key looking me in.
And the ex just happened to get in the way of my elbow. winky smile

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

I took the keys out of the locks. smile
It have actually been a fire here too, but i was 100 miles away then, hade to move out for more then 9 month, before being able to move back in again. sad

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

I think every firetruck should have a package of hotdogs and a bag of marshmallows on the front seat.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

No one would have wanted to grill sausages or marshmallows on that fire. winky smile
When the fire brigade came out of town over the fields, they said what the hell is it, that is burning and what they saw was this.

A construction company had set up a whole pile of styrform awning insulation boards at the gable end of the house and some kids had lit a fire so they started burning.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

FAA just released an AD to inspect the flap synchro wire on all classic variants.

What it does I have no clue

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

synchronises the flap, of course...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

...lest they function as ailerons

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

nah

They are run off torque tubes and hydraulics on them, there is asymmetry sensors which will cut the hydraulics and lock them in place if the torque tubes break. But its a electrically controlled mechanical hydraulic system.

Its more how the flaps would have a link to the auto throttle.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

here is a pic of the system.

Slats are on another system

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Question, can a 737 land without with 0 flap as in the system has failed to operate?

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

yes all aircraft can. You are going significantly faster than with them. Almost but not quiet exceeding the tyre limiting speed and you need an extremely long runway. And its part of the 3 year cycle in the sim for pilot to land without them.

I have only had to do it once in real life but that was with a turbo prop Jetstream 32 which is certified to land zero flap normal operations but we never did because it eats brakes and tyres . Normally with that we would use 900 meters of runway flap 25 with zero I used over 2000meters and had full beta rev in down to 70 knots. With medium jets its classed as a none normal emergency procedure and your talking over 3000 meters of runway. The heavy's its a major emergency and will more than likely leave you with a plane with tyres blown out possibly on fire and in the retard zone off the end of the runway.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Just had a look at the A220 books

The landing distance required wet runway 15 deg C QNH 1013 calm wind is 2.1 times that required for Flap 4 which is the normal landing flap. And we will be going at 54 knts faster than at flap 4.

Tyre limit is 195 knts

At 55 tons we would normally need 1910 meters and V ref 136 knts.


With 0 flap we would need 4100 meters and V ref would be 190 knts according to my performance app.

O could go and find 737 classic numbers but A220 is easier for example and i am 100% sure that the above is correct.

Edited to add I have Just been thinking what would actually need to be wrong to even attempt a landing with the above conditions on the A220.

We would need a fire to force us to land ASAP and not burn the tanks down to nearly dry which would remove 8 to 10 tons off the landing weight.

We would need a major electrical issue which would take 3 main AC power sources off line.

We would need the emergency battery bus offline.

The ram air turbine emergency back up hydraulic and electric power source would also have to fail.

The 2 main flap control system would have to be out and the alternate system.

But this is a modern fly by wire machine. The 737 is a 1960's Frankenstein design.

To be honest on fire with that lot going on personally I would be putting serious thoughts to ditching. Realistically real life its extremely unlikely to occur. But we do see this stuff in the simulator but the learning points are more about crew interaction and working together to get the best solution than training to be prepared for such an event.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Wow... some guys have all the fun.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Personally I do find it quiet good fun...... in the sim...

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

For us nautical types, I have always heard the sim is quite stressful. I'm not deck side so I don't know but the story is that if you wreck in the sim you get an investigation and it will affect your license. My colleagues in school always despised the simulator.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

When you first start out and everything is very new it is very stressful.

When your new you don't know or understand the soft skills and you have to think what your doing and what your going to do next. Your also poo scared you will loose your license because of a brain fart mistake.

I have been flying now 21 years and 19 years commercially and 17 years as a Captain and done various training roles. So I know what people are looking for and know that the biggest crime is not communicating. The examiners don't care about brain fart mistakes as long as you communicate that you have done them and then sort them out.

You also build up muscle memory and a third sense what you should do... Which is just experience and there is only one way to get it and that's by screwing up and flying. The problem occurs with repeat mistakes of the same type. The system after that can become untuck and the Dash crash in the USA has highlighted and they still haven't managed to develop a system to allow company's to see long term training issues over a pilots career so some people seem to float and job change every couple of years just before the Training boss has lost patience in them and is ready to fire them.

They actually tailor the sim to your experience level so the first session after qualifying they are very gentle with the first officers and only give them a small amount of rope to hang themselves with. 2-3 years down the line they will ramp the pressure up and start the are they ready to be a captain process.

Two old hairy aviators in the sim together as partners they will throw the book at you and all of you will have a great time. And when we finish early we won't be flying under london Bridge for fun there will be usually some extreme edge of envelope stuff we want to have a shot at.

But I have never had a failed sim or had a two hour debrief after one. Those pilots that have, may find the whole thing a lot less fun than I do.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

I was meaning the Colgan 3407 flight, but your example is good as well.

RE: Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia

Start a new thread somewhere - The pub or somewhere. Just because it was a 737 max that forced down doesn't mean it belongs here.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

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