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Boeing 737 (500, not a Max) crashed in Indonesia 1
- Thread starter IRstuff
- Start date
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
You are getting into type specific stuff. Which I am not sure of so will only comment generally.
There is another thing thrown into the mix with a device called the yaw dampener which is there to stop a yaw roll couple effect called Dutch roll. Which will input rudder to control the yaw. BUt you get 1st 2nd and 3rd generation of them.
AP can be 1 2 or 3 channel depending if it has roll pitch and rudder. And then you get coupling between between channels so for example if the roll channel commands a turn the pitch channel will automatically lower the nose. This coupling usually defines if you can use the AP with one engine failed or not.
I would suspect the 737-500 the channels won't be coupled and it will have a 2nd gen yaw damper and don't know about if its got three channels but I think it can do autoland's would sort of imply it has 3.
Single engine you control the yaw with the rudder pedals and then trim it out with the rudder trimmer using the turn coordinator ball or slip indicator. Then every time you change power setting or speed you retrim it. And you need a lot of it, nearly the full rudder travel at approach speed and max power during a go-around. Every time you change the rudder you will need to change the roll trim as well. It sounds complicated but after you get used to it your hands and feet look after it and you don't really think about it.
The single engine stuff is done every sim session with multiple failures and GA's and is relatively easy compared to subtle failures when the engines continue to give some power but not all of it. As a general comment that doesn't I think relate to this incident Pilots are loathed to shut an engine down and sometimes keep them running longer than is really wise. Sometimes its better to just turn the engine off and then you have a clear cut situation which you have trained for instead of having to try and manage an engine which isn't doing what you want it to and you don't really know what its going to do next. But that's personal opinion and you will get extremely well qualified and experienced pilots saying the opposite saying never turn off a working engine. Turboprop drivers tend to want to get rid of engines quicker due to taking a huge performance hit with a unfeathered prop. Jet there is hardly any drag difference if any. The modern aircraft take this decision process away from the pilot mostly because the checklists usually lead you down the path to engine shut down with any control issues. I think its only a couple of things such as engine vibration which will allow you to split the thrust levers and operate asymmetric with both still running but at different power settings.
There is another thing thrown into the mix with a device called the yaw dampener which is there to stop a yaw roll couple effect called Dutch roll. Which will input rudder to control the yaw. BUt you get 1st 2nd and 3rd generation of them.
AP can be 1 2 or 3 channel depending if it has roll pitch and rudder. And then you get coupling between between channels so for example if the roll channel commands a turn the pitch channel will automatically lower the nose. This coupling usually defines if you can use the AP with one engine failed or not.
I would suspect the 737-500 the channels won't be coupled and it will have a 2nd gen yaw damper and don't know about if its got three channels but I think it can do autoland's would sort of imply it has 3.
Single engine you control the yaw with the rudder pedals and then trim it out with the rudder trimmer using the turn coordinator ball or slip indicator. Then every time you change power setting or speed you retrim it. And you need a lot of it, nearly the full rudder travel at approach speed and max power during a go-around. Every time you change the rudder you will need to change the roll trim as well. It sounds complicated but after you get used to it your hands and feet look after it and you don't really think about it.
The single engine stuff is done every sim session with multiple failures and GA's and is relatively easy compared to subtle failures when the engines continue to give some power but not all of it. As a general comment that doesn't I think relate to this incident Pilots are loathed to shut an engine down and sometimes keep them running longer than is really wise. Sometimes its better to just turn the engine off and then you have a clear cut situation which you have trained for instead of having to try and manage an engine which isn't doing what you want it to and you don't really know what its going to do next. But that's personal opinion and you will get extremely well qualified and experienced pilots saying the opposite saying never turn off a working engine. Turboprop drivers tend to want to get rid of engines quicker due to taking a huge performance hit with a unfeathered prop. Jet there is hardly any drag difference if any. The modern aircraft take this decision process away from the pilot mostly because the checklists usually lead you down the path to engine shut down with any control issues. I think its only a couple of things such as engine vibration which will allow you to split the thrust levers and operate asymmetric with both still running but at different power settings.
I am not shore if the engines on a plane like this have any resemblance to turbo engines on a smaller plane?
I remember reading when doing my own "investigation" that it can be difficult to realize that an engine has stopped by just looking at the manifold pressure inHg because the engine becomes like a "wind turbine "and will continue to maintain the pressure even though the engine is stationary.
But I guess planes like this have more monitoring systems to keep track of this if the construction is the same.
Or is it totally different in this case?
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
I remember reading when doing my own "investigation" that it can be difficult to realize that an engine has stopped by just looking at the manifold pressure inHg because the engine becomes like a "wind turbine "and will continue to maintain the pressure even though the engine is stationary.
But I guess planes like this have more monitoring systems to keep track of this if the construction is the same.
Or is it totally different in this case?
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
turbine jet run a lot faster than piston. So we use N1, exhaust gas temp and oil pressure. But in real life the yaw.
Dead leg dead engine.
Dead leg dead engine.
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
yep rudder to deal with the power loss. Never lies
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
the leg rhats not pushing is the dead engine
Okey thanks..How does it work now whit all the corona restrictions, when you work are you actually in the country when flying between different country's airports ?
Or is the transit zone like a no mans land?
I know this is a bit of topic but couldn't resist asking..
Have thought about it and I don't know anybody else that can answer.
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
rhats ?? pip pip
I thought they were abandoning ships, sinking ships.
I guess aircraft are considered ships to.
I guess it means something else?
Everyday is different rules
Does it mean you can't always work or just have to stay on the plane ?
BR A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
I thought they were abandoning ships, sinking ships.
I guess aircraft are considered ships to.
I guess it means something else?
Everyday is different rules
Does it mean you can't always work or just have to stay on the plane ?
BR A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
every day 2 hours before the report I download the latest rules and read them and then during the pre-flight we confirm them and any specials/ The planes all stink of vodka with getting sterilised ever two flights. Its not a pleasant environment mask and purple rubber gloves.
Hmm purple, it must be hard .. they say smelling of alcohol inspires respect and appreciation.
Well some don't get to work so I guess you are still in a better position.
Hopefully it will be better soon.
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
Well some don't get to work so I guess you are still in a better position.
Hopefully it will be better soon.
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
![[bigsmile]](/data/assets/smilies/bigsmile.gif "[bigsmile] [bigsmile]")
Lou Scannon
Automotive
You have to bear with Alistair... it's not that English isn't his first language (or am I wrong?)RedSnake said:
![[wink]](/data/assets/smilies/wink.gif "[wink] [wink]")
, but it is his wont to contribute to this forum from the pub (a real one) after a long day's work, or so I surmise ![[lol]](/data/assets/smilies/lol.gif "[lol] [lol]")
I think for "rhats" you should read "that's", in this particular case
![[cheers]](/data/assets/smilies/cheers.gif "[cheers] [cheers]")
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
Well one can never be shore it can be some type of special airplane equipment, airplane tech slang for one, Gaelic, Scottish or some mix of that or you might be right
I hope you are right!
In that case lucky Alistair.
I would love to go the pub with someone and have a beer or two.... it been half a year since last time :-(
It's not forbidden here they are still open, but now it's to cold to go out, and no one to go with.
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
I hope you are right!
In that case lucky Alistair.
I would love to go the pub with someone and have a beer or two.... it been half a year since last time :-(
It's not forbidden here they are still open, but now it's to cold to go out, and no one to go with.
Best Regards A
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
- Moderator
- #35
If the UK and the US are two nations separated by a common language, may we we view England and Scotland as one nation separated by an uncommon language? grin
Would Winston agree?
Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
My problem is lack of flying, Going from 7 days off a month starting at 5 am or finishing at 11pm. Alcohol tested everyday. To weeks between flights. And when you do fly its 10 days quarantine home alone. And just when you come out you go flying again. Then every 7 days the rules change. Getting across a border is stressful to say the least with sometimes a never ending list of required documents other times nothing. No pubs, no coffee apart from take away, arrested on the way home from work at the weekends if your out the house after 10pm without an essential worker cert. Doesn't seem to be making any difference to the numbers. But you can't start doing anything because your always on standby. And just waiting for the day they say we are reducing crews again. And I am sure my nasal passages are getting calluses with the amount of sticks getting fired up there. I am getting to the point I want a positive test then I can get a cert that means I don't need to bother for 3 months.
On an aircraft in theory you are in the country of registration of that aircraft but that doesn't always work and the covid stuff is very country specific just now. You should see the problems the shipping crews have. They are really screwed getting home.
We also lost a lovely colleague on Christmas eve.....
Anyway I am a dyslexic and English was never my strong point. I haven't lived in UK for over 10 years now and you develop an English as a foreign language style so your understood and my already poor grammar doesn't get picked up on and most of what I read is just as bad as mine. French written translated to American manuals
Anyway aviation lingo is a language in itself but we are lucky we didn't go down the German route. They can do half a page for one sentence a single word can be one line. I usually stay away from the three letter acronyms. You should see the TLA index in the FOM Flight operating manual Its 4 pages long with 48 of them per page. And there are 3 of these manuals per aircraft type all of them some 3500 pages long. I suspect the 737 ones are even longer.
There are differences in the aviation lingo either side of the Atlantic "dead engine dead leg" is "dead engine dead foot" across the pond.
Your not wrong Bill about the lingo between the two nations words can have completely different usages.
On an aircraft in theory you are in the country of registration of that aircraft but that doesn't always work and the covid stuff is very country specific just now. You should see the problems the shipping crews have. They are really screwed getting home.
We also lost a lovely colleague on Christmas eve.....
Anyway I am a dyslexic and English was never my strong point. I haven't lived in UK for over 10 years now and you develop an English as a foreign language style so your understood and my already poor grammar doesn't get picked up on and most of what I read is just as bad as mine. French written translated to American manuals
Anyway aviation lingo is a language in itself but we are lucky we didn't go down the German route. They can do half a page for one sentence a single word can be one line. I usually stay away from the three letter acronyms. You should see the TLA index in the FOM
Flight operating manual Its 4 pages long with 48 of them per page. And there are 3 of these manuals per aircraft type all of them some 3500 pages long. I suspect the 737 ones are even longer. There are differences in the aviation lingo either side of the Atlantic "dead engine dead leg" is "dead engine dead foot" across the pond.
Your not wrong Bill about the lingo between the two nations words can have completely different usages.
I am sorry for your loss.
I have the habit of always saving the German manual if it is a German made device.
Even if I start of reading the English version or the Swedish on if there is one.
Because before the translations could be so bad that you could not be shore that what you read was correct and it sometimes didn't seem cohesive or made sense.
Then I could always read the German one instead then things starting to make sense, always correct
I remember one sentence it was 3 rows long and you must read it to the end before you understand it since the verb is usually last in the sentence you always need to read it twice to understand it but it is always correct..
I guess you have made a immune test first then ?
Since you still need to do Covid testing regularly.
![[thumbsup2]](/data/assets/smilies/thumbsup2.gif "[thumbsup2] [thumbsup2]")
Language was never my strong suite either, I am much better with numbers.
Best Regards Anna
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
Alistair said:French written translated to American manuals
lucky we didn't go down the German route.
I have the habit of always saving the German manual if it is a German made device.
Even if I start of reading the English version or the Swedish on if there is one.
Because before the translations could be so bad that you could not be shore that what you read was correct and it sometimes didn't seem cohesive or made sense.
Then I could always read the German one instead then things starting to make sense, always correct
I remember one sentence it was 3 rows long and you must read it to the end before you understand it since the verb is usually last in the sentence you always need to read it twice to understand it but it is always correct..
I guess you have made a immune test first then ?
Since you still need to do Covid testing regularly.
If you where "really" dyslexic you would not be able to write like that.Alistair said:
Language was never my strong suite either, I am much better with numbers.
Best Regards Anna
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
We are going to get in trouble again for thread drift.....
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