E-scooter and E-bike fires
E-scooter and E-bike fires
(OP)
There is a proliferation of fires caused by batteries in these devices. Charging inside homes has led to destruction of dwellings. There are lessons to be learned. Apparently, there is a wide variation in quality, and the lack of a battery management system would be a big issue.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11511537/...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11511537/...
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Chinaabroad are source inspecting?To ask is to answer :)
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
https://7news.com.au/news/qld/e-scooter-bursts-int...
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Personally, I would like to see them banned entirely, as the riders are not regulated, and they treat the footpath as theirs exclusively, with no consideration for senior pedestrians, like me.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
But I have been nearly killed by these a couple of times.
Charging is no big deal.
I can buy a circuit board on eBay that will handle current limits, temp monitor, and cell balance for about $3.
If I want to monitor each individual cell (rather than banks) then it takes a bunch of feedback wires and $5 board.
Just remember, you never get more than you pay for.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
With all due respect, that has nothing to do with the problem. And my power is not hydro, never will be.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
"Yer honer. It's human nature. What else could I do?"
"Get outa here, you scamp. Next case!"
spsalso
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
The two that have gone up round me are owned by lads that DIY there own battery packs.
Its a little bit funny in the UK because some are not very happy with the solar fire data. Turns out that there has only been 1 fire in the last 10 years with the actual inverter or panels. All the rest of them have occurred with the required extras mainly isolators.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
John, you are correct that there is a first mile problem. The solution is to have main lines and feeders. The current impedement is exact fee for every boarding. When I lived in my closest city it costs $2.10 evert time I walked through the door of the bus and it could take 3 lines to go 4 miles. It cost a minimum $8.40 to go to the grocery store. The busses recover less than 10% of their operating costs from fares. The buses would cost less to operate if we didn't have to wait for riders to count their fair.
Then again the fair is only intended to keep the homeless off the busses.
There are really easy solutions but somebody is going to complain about discrimination and we'll keep walking back to the stoneage.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
They brought in during covid a one hour travel swipe. ie you swipe it on the first bus and its active for travel for the next hour how ever many forms of public transport you use be it trams, trolley buses or ICE buses.
Works really well to be honest. You can enter through 3 doors and not go near the driver.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
What we need are two bus systems. One for the functional and one for the dependent. Problem solved.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
If we pay cash it costs 30% more than swipe. Its 35 euro if you get caught and not swiping. And they do seem to know which routes and what times to check. But as its only 1 euro for an hours travel by swipe if my kid isn't with me I can't see the point. Compared to London which always seems to cost me 20 plus euro in travel stepping out the door for the day.
They are also quite good when the roads go to poo in the winter with snow and they start struggling. They just ditch the system and all busses are free and most do use them and leave the cars at home. Again some don't like, but the city dude says it costs less than having to increase the amount of snow clearing gear to cover the 6 days a year they need to do it. They also run the buses 24h during those periods.
And we have a company called Bolt which does escooters via an app on the phone. There is a map which tells you where the nearest one is and how much range it has and logs you into it via a bar code and logs you off it at the other end. They are about 1.50 euro for 5 km. They are not slow either two settings 15km/hour or 25km/hr. The its not worth owning your own at that price for me.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
There are plenty of systems for prepaid use of public transport. Every city seems to have its own, and its own rates and rules. Where I live in Brisbane, it is a 'GoCard', but that is no good in Sydney or Melbourne. But if you drive a car on a toll road, the same prepaid transponder works for the whole continent. Go figure.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
There doesn't seem to be an issue with people using them to get home from the pub which there would be in Glasgow plus also them getting chucked in the river.
Mind you there are automated coffee machines in the public parks that don't get vandalised as well. Ex soviets more civilised than your average Scot!.
Maybe why I just don't see private escooters and don't hear of houses on fire because of them.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Same stateside. Amazon and other online marketplaces are infamous for selling knockoffs and downright dangerous merchandise, its the real reason they can sell for less than the established brick&mortars. Scandals worth noting involved dead dogs (food), sick people (also food), house fires (light fixtures and other electrics), Mitutoyo calipers that weren't, and a pair of Ipods the wife bought ~15 years ago with identical s/ns (copied 1Mx+ per Apple). JMO but we're long overdue for holding their stateside distribution to the same standards that we hold chains and local storefronts.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Here, on BART, you only pay when you leave the station. If you are a tourist, you can ride around all day peering at the sights (not that much fun on the underground sections) and only pay the minimum 1-stop fare when you leave at the station where you entered.
It's been said that my local bus system, AC Transit, must be carrying 6 fares to break even. Have no idea if it's true, but it came from "on high", so it might be.
spsalso
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
That's not quite true. Amazon does sell products. But they also allow other people to sell through them, much like Ebay. When we get bad product, we talk to Amazon and they've always made it right.
Should we intentionally order cheap shoddy crap, we keep our mouths shut when it fails.
spsalso
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Touch wood haven't had anything dodgy yet. Few screwups over the years though.
Ended up with 36 posh fish knives for the price of 6 and they weren't cheap either. They had got the units wrong on the bin so I got 6 boxs. The customer services just laughed and said no prob's keep them.
Down to 25 now left in my tools after 10 years, they are actually very handy in a tool box. Great for changing tyres on kids bikes or slipping in when you separating something. Although they are not quite up to 1mx1mx50mm paving slabs, hence I am down to 25 with also 6 in the cutlery drawer bing used for food.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
And even the ones that appear to may not. Counterfit bolts, anybody?
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Companies like Amazon sometimes make an attempt to take non-compliant products off their own marketing, but Amazon is a big enough company which operates in enough countries that there is some recourse available. When the online sale is done through completely offshore means, how do you enforce standards?
I've heard of cases where customs officers have intercepted non-compliant products, but having customs intercept every package and/or shipping container in search of compliance markings on everything, and to make sure there is a retailer involved who can take responsibility, is not happening and I'm not sure we want to go down that path.
If every wheeled vehicle on the roads needed to be licensed and insured, maybe it would help but we'd still have people using non-compliant crap off road. The bicycle lobby would really love that ...
Do-it-yourself battery packs ... yikes. Anyone can buy individual cells.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
If they had any guts this would be a non-issue.
Sorry the fire was caused by a non-compliant device, your deductible just doubled.
Of course, if insurance companies had the nerve there would be no seatbelt or helmet laws wither, just tiered coverage.
Pay your money and take your chances.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Nobody ever designs for 60amp 110V its only ever adapted for the market if its worth it.
I might add my solar hardware actually makes it a marketing plus they don't do USA UL regs its a selling point.
I might add thats the reason why emphases is screwed in 50 hz 230V systems with out the nonsense regulations that they have enforced through politicians.
Enphase is garbage extremely redundant gear without the regs.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Typically, 110V circuits only go up to 20 amps. Typically. Over that, they are 220V. THOSE go as high as you want and care to pay for.
spsalso
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
The big issue on our roads is and will remain to be personal motor vehicles. Anything that reduces the prevalence of them is a good thing.
Sure there are teething issues with e-scooters and other micro mobility vehicles. Cars have had over a century of development and are still one of the primary sources of accidental death and serious injury.
Micro mobility vehicles are a solution to many urban and environmental problems caused by motor vehicles. Anybody with an interest in safer, more pleasant and lower environmental impact urban transport should see the benefit in micro mobility vehicles.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
https://www.racq.com.au/articles/evs/2022/10/e-sco...
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Gizmocontraptions with Li-ion batteries that have proper BMS and good quality cells don't catch fire much.
So, how do you stop someone buying stuff overseas and bypass all administrative and regulatory protections because they could get it at a cheaper price?
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Curiously, it goes the other direction, also.
spsalso
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
There was a spate of bad li ion battery chargers and those Segway type systems over here.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Amazon itself is one of the worst offenders on that site.
Your point is irrelevant. Laws should be equally applied and consumer protections upheld without special exceptions for online retailers. If your kid dies bc something bought online wasn't safe you're going to want more than a refund but legally you'll be told you have to sue the manufacturer, not the marketplace. If you'd shopped brick&mortar stateside OTOH you'd sue both.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
A.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Asserting something is "irrelevant" without demonstrating that it is, is irrelevant.
You are asserting there are special exceptions to the (American, presumably) law for "online retailers". Could you please provide more detail about those special exceptions?
spsalso
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
A retail store who does that, can have a finger pointed in their direction, but an online shopper, it can only point to themselves.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
It's not though.
I certainly don't consider European electrical stuff to be in any way superior. Just a BS option to claim so.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
This stuff isn't European design, its mainly designed in India and the like.
To be honest I don't rate British electrical design very highly. German though I would pay a premium for.
With a lot of the smart gear stuff its just not made for the currents and heat. Example sonoff smart switches they claim to be rated at 16 amps 50/60hz but the plastic an contacts are the same for both. The emf noise stuff is all 50hz optimised. There seems to be a different way of defining the limits. If you only put resistive load through them it might be ok. But as soon as reactive loads go through them they all seem to go to pot.
And there are major changes to the Powerfactor of chargers as well with conversions both ways.
So its not 50hz is better than 60hz or vice versa. Its products designed from the outset for either are better than products fiddled so they can use the other.
The Alibaba/aliexpress chargers are pretty much all designed for 230V 50hz and then butchered into accepting 110V 60Hz. And that goes for the some of the high end stuff as well. If you look at ABB they and siemens they are separate and if its to be multi use then they have to be passed by both as fit for use to the same standards as solo. Which I might add will be TUV German not EU.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
If you buy shit from Alibaba then what do you expect? Nothing from Alibaba will ever go into my house on 120V power. I prefer my house not on fire.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
That's why they like warm beer... British Leyland does the fridges...
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
And do they really do fridges? Thank the lord I have never experienced one of them before. The BV boilers in the wagons were pretty useless and that was just a resistance heating element. We used to weld a box onto the exhaust and fill it full of water to cook food.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
As for battery fires, I suspect a big portion of the problem will be numerous devices that don't comply with any safety regulations whatsoever. Until Amazon, Walmart, Alibaba, and such "marketplace" sites are held responsible for the products they sell (or allow others to sell on their sites) unsafe crap will keep getting sold, and some fly-by-night all-caps six-letter shell company will take the blame and disappear. My employer uses LiFePo4 cells due to safety risks (automotive product), it's not the nicest chemistry to use (the V-I discharge curve is nearly flat, then the voltage drops precipitously, so determining the State of Charge (SoC) requires a Coulomb counter which increases BoM cost and charger complexity). With Li-Ion you can estimate the SoC from the voltage well enough, the energy density is higher, the power density is higher, the over-charge prevention and over-discharge prevention circuitry is simpler, it just has that pesky "vent with flame" issue!
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Must admit i have never stood on a UK plug.... The EU sockets/plugs are utter bollocks.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-18/e-scooter-l...
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/09/tech/lithium-io...
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
"One of our challenges is the fact that people are choosing to source product that either should not be [used] together or is of a very low or very inferior quality," he said.
"There is very good quality product being sold through reputable outlets and we want to make sure that as we move forward, the legislation supports the use of these bikes and scooters because we know it has a positive impact."
And more ...
Melbourne-based lithium-ion battery manufacturers like Zakk Goodsell, whose company makes batteries for drones, said it was important for consumers to understand the inherent risk in buying cheap and poorly made products.
"We are worried about undue fear of the technology," Mr Goodsell said.
"It is not inherently more unsafe than say, using a petrol-powered device, but it can get blown out of proportion when incidents occur," he said. "However, the more prolific the products become the more chance that fires will occur.
So, how do you stop someone buying stuff overseas and bypass all administrative and regulatory protections because they could get it at a cheaper price?
"What we are worried about as manufacturers is the lack of appropriate regulation and education around how to use these products appropriately."
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Lucas. Prince of Darkness.
The three positions of a Lucas headlight switch; Off, Dim, Flicker.
Lucas also makes brake systems for trucks.
The motto of the brake division.
"We carry on where others halt."
And of course, the warm bear. Lucas makes refrigerators.
I am wondering where 110 Volts, 60 Hz is used.
It was phased out in North America in the 50s and 60s.
Standard voltages and the rated voltages on appliances jumped every 5 years.
I remember 112 Volt appliances, 115 Volt appliances, 117 Volt appliances and finally 120 Volt appliances.
Motor standard voltages stopped at 115 Volts and multiples thereof to allow for line drop.
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
I have a liking for German TUV electrical gear.
British apart from MK sockets I tend to avoid.
110V was always the standard building site tools voltage in Europe.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
I have just ordered one due to finding out that AGM stop start battery's have a bit of a problem with your old none smart chargers.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005047253758.h...
The local ones as far as I can tell are the same model but with a different sticker on and they are wanting 120 euro for them. The German smart chargers twice that! But as its only for occasional emergency use it will do.
What I think is common is people get something like that and they get absolutely hammered everyday. I wouldn't expect it to survive doing 3 repair runs a day for a month. BUt that's what folk are doing with these e bike chargers, charge one battery pack and stick the old one on to charge come back later after using the fresh one up and swap. And they may have 2-3 bikes being serviced by the same charger.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
But that doesn't mean that any of the design or parts are the same.
I have tried buying replacement parts electronics online and unless the link to the online store is directly from the original sellers web site I won't trust it.
The online resellers don't care if products are criminally bad as long as they get their cut.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Swedish as well is designed to be fixed though even though I don't think they have a law,
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Only improperly-engineered ones.
Ballpark one-in-a-thousand combustion-engine vehicles is involved in a reported car fire in the USA every year. (174,000ish reported vehicle fires in USA in 2021)
The rate of fires among EVs in the US market is something like an order of magnitude lower, possibly even less. The difference seems to be that every single one makes the nightly news.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
I do mot remember seeing any third party testing laboratory marks on the local fleet of e-scooters.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Evidently this is based upon a risk assessment that was done for the company.
"The competitor Hurtigruten makes a different assessment and will continue to allow all types of cars."
I know about risk assessments. They can be subject to interpretation. A risk analysis that considers only the "severity" of a particular event can have one outcome, while another that considers the "frequency" as well could have another outcome.
If the overall fire risk of an EV, taking into account both how severe the outcome is and how frequently it occurs, is so dramatically high compared to conventional cars then it would absolutely show up in higher insurance rates, and my personal experience is that this is not the case.
It is fair to say that EV fires can be difficult to put out ... but it also has to be said that the frequency of such events is extremely low, and particularly if the vehicle is neither being driven nor is plugged in and charging nor is being involved in a flood.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
<www.evfiresafe.com/post/electric-vehicle-fires-on-...;
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
https://www.ctif.org/news/explosion-norwegian-batt...
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
https://www.batterytechonline.com/testing-and-safe...
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
These are now basically universal in all major cities in the US. There are maybe a dozen different companies, which all operate on the same model. Find a scooter (or just walk up to one and scan a QR code) using their app, pay a few bucks, speed off into the night.
Each city has their own ordinances that govern the scooters. Some cities limit how many companies and how many scooters in service per company, etc. Some limit the area they can be used. Some have no rules in place at all - and in those cities, in my experience, the scooters become an absolute plague; there will be piles of them in the sidewalk on every downtown corner that has a bar on a Friday or Saturday night, to the point where people on foot sometimes have to walk in the street to get around them. So having limits sounds draconian but seems to be the best policy so far in a lot of places.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
That's great for small batteries, but not so much for electric cars; I doubt that anyone can even remove such batteries without an autoshop/tools.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/04/01/exclusive-c....
But, it's all a joke until one these cars catches fire on a bridge or worse, in a tunnel. Tank trucks and hazardous chemical carriers are already banned on our local bridges and in our tunnels.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Actually there are a lot of potential hazards associated with the lithium batteries. Airlines already prohibit them in checked baggage. Imagine some woke person installs a household lithium battery on the 20th floor of a 60 floor high rise and it catches fire. A good day to be working late at the office with the personal secretary.
Other high hazard locations include ferries, underground parking lots, parking near storage tanks that contain flammable fluids, etc. The regulations that prohibit the use or locations of these batteries might not yet be fully mature and may not be regarded as neccesary until after some dramatic catastrophe occurs.
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
Another method for controlling bad product is to do what China did when powdered milk producers were found to be supplementing their products with melamine powder; they executed the producers, after fair and impartial trials.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
And no I don't have a link and no I am not going to post an internally issued document from my company's safety department
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
As a relatively small airline we have 5-10 li ion events per year in the cabin.
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/
https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/tctn23-34.pdf
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
That would make sense; a dead battery has not much energy to do much of anything. So, just need to discharge the batteries before shipping; easy-peasy
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/05/opinions/escoot...
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires
The freestanding e-bikes and scooters on the street aren't charged on the street; that would take way too much infrastructure and time. Instead, a truck goes around the city and swaps out discharged batteries for fresh ones.
The French rejection of e-scooters, etc., probably wasn't about anything other than not being a French idea; it's just the way they roll.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: E-scooter and E-bike fires