I wonder if these things are regulated in the US. I wonder if the regs are enforced? I wonder if US companies buying from China abroad are source inspecting?

To ask is to answer :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

Here's another one from yesterday - 5 people ended up in hospital.

https://7news.com.au/news/qld/e-scooter-bursts-int...

It wouldn't be so bad if they were charged outside, away from the house. But a lot of people in cities, which is where they are used, don't have that luxury. They live on small blocks or in apartment buildings.

Personally, I would like to see them banned entirely, as the riders are not regulated, and they treat the footpath as theirs exclusively, with no consideration for senior pedestrians, like me.

If the weight and max speed were regulated, and they had to make noise then I wouldn't mind them.
But I have been nearly killed by these a couple of times.
Charging is no big deal.
I can buy a circuit board on eBay that will handle current limits, temp monitor, and cell balance for about $3.
If I want to monitor each individual cell (rather than banks) then it takes a bunch of feedback wires and $5 board.
Just remember, you never get more than you pay for.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

Hokie... if your power is Hydro... then these things will have a very small carbon footprint and may be essential in future...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

dik,

With all due respect, that has nothing to do with the problem. And my power is not hydro, never will be.

No standards and no regulation and no accountability to the manufacturer/distributor (who are in a "don't care" regulatory and legal environment), plus human nature to seek out the cheapest price, and here we are.

In this country, any electrical gizmocontraption that you plug into an electrical outlet (e.g. a battery charger) is supposed to comply with CSA standards, and it's supposed to go through the proper approval channels (CSA, UL, etc). Major retailers and brand-name suppliers etc that are based here, know this and don't sell non-compliant electrical goods (otherwise they could have a recall forced upon them). I just checked the battery charger for the laptop that I'm writing this on, and unsurprisingly, it has a ULC marking. But if someone buys something online from an overseas source, and it ends up on your doorstep in a shipping box ... there's no enforcement mechanism.

I do wonder if, since it's "...human nature to seek out the cheapest price,...", whether that is a valid defense in court.

"Yer honer. It's human nature. What else could I do?"

"Get outa here, you scamp. Next case!"



spsalso

I agree Hokie... but that type of transportation may become more common with climate change. It's an evolving means of transportation.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

These devices also fill the 'gaps' to a concept in the transportation industry known as the 'First mile and the last mile', which is a reference to how a commuter would get from their home to a mass transit terminal and then from another terminal to their workplace.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Its not usually the charger that goes up. Its the BMS, motor power controller or cells.



The two that have gone up round me are owned by lads that DIY there own battery packs.

Its a little bit funny in the UK because some are not very happy with the solar fire data. Turns out that there has only been 1 fire in the last 10 years with the actual inverter or panels. All the rest of them have occurred with the required extras mainly isolators.

California's implementation of busses is stupid. The busses have to cater to the disabled so they can't cater to the functional. Stopping every 1000 feet makes the lines take to long to be useful.

John, you are correct that there is a first mile problem. The solution is to have main lines and feeders. The current impedement is exact fee for every boarding. When I lived in my closest city it costs $2.10 evert time I walked through the door of the bus and it could take 3 lines to go 4 miles. It cost a minimum $8.40 to go to the grocery store. The busses recover less than 10% of their operating costs from fares. The buses would cost less to operate if we didn't have to wait for riders to count their fair.

Then again the fair is only intended to keep the homeless off the busses.

There are really easy solutions but somebody is going to complain about discrimination and we'll keep walking back to the stoneage.

We had the same system here. But we all use a smart card and just wave it at a reader.

They brought in during covid a one hour travel swipe. ie you swipe it on the first bus and its active for travel for the next hour how ever many forms of public transport you use be it trams, trolley buses or ICE buses.

Works really well to be honest. You can enter through 3 doors and not go near the driver.

Yes, we have the smart card (Clipper Card) but we can't require it for the same reasons we can't have voter ID.

What we need are two bus systems. One for the functional and one for the dependent. Problem solved.

We can still pay as well with cash but nobody does apart from Tourists at the airport. You get a stand alone card which I have and you can also link it to your ID card or phone and I think there is other options. All school children get a free pass as well. And if your traveling with them its linked and 1 parent goes free works on the weekends as well. Some don't like it though, the city economic dude says it generates more money than it costs and the parks are full.

If we pay cash it costs 30% more than swipe. Its 35 euro if you get caught and not swiping. And they do seem to know which routes and what times to check. But as its only 1 euro for an hours travel by swipe if my kid isn't with me I can't see the point. Compared to London which always seems to cost me 20 plus euro in travel stepping out the door for the day.

They are also quite good when the roads go to poo in the winter with snow and they start struggling. They just ditch the system and all busses are free and most do use them and leave the cars at home. Again some don't like, but the city dude says it costs less than having to increase the amount of snow clearing gear to cover the 6 days a year they need to do it. They also run the buses 24h during those periods.

And we have a company called Bolt which does escooters via an app on the phone. There is a map which tells you where the nearest one is and how much range it has and logs you into it via a bar code and logs you off it at the other end. They are about 1.50 euro for 5 km. They are not slow either two settings 15km/hour or 25km/hr. The its not worth owning your own at that price for me.

E-scooters which lead to destruction of the house they are charging in don't do much for your 'carbon footprint', dik, whatever that is. And they don't do much for the environment in general, as many of them end up thrown in rivers, etc.

There are plenty of systems for prepaid use of public transport. Every city seems to have its own, and its own rates and rules. Where I live in Brisbane, it is a 'GoCard', but that is no good in Sydney or Melbourne. But if you drive a car on a toll road, the same prepaid transponder works for the whole continent. Go figure.

Must admit the escooter Bolt thing works really well. Always seems to be one about. They reload them with battery packs at night. And no chance of burning your house down.

There doesn't seem to be an issue with people using them to get home from the pub which there would be in Glasgow plus also them getting chucked in the river.

Mind you there are automated coffee machines in the public parks that don't get vandalised as well. Ex soviets more civilised than your average Scot!.

Maybe why I just don't see private escooters and don't hear of houses on fire because of them.

Quote:

But if someone buys something online from an overseas source, and it ends up on your doorstep in a shipping box ... there's no enforcement mechanism.

Same stateside. Amazon and other online marketplaces are infamous for selling knockoffs and downright dangerous merchandise, its the real reason they can sell for less than the established brick&mortars. Scandals worth noting involved dead dogs (food), sick people (also food), house fires (light fixtures and other electrics), Mitutoyo calipers that weren't, and a pair of Ipods the wife bought ~15 years ago with identical s/ns (copied 1Mx+ per Apple). JMO but we're long overdue for holding their stateside distribution to the same standards that we hold chains and local storefronts.

In the olden days, in the US, there were things called "transfers", which were used as implied. You asked for one when you paid your fare boarding a bus or streetcar. It was dated and timed--you had maybe an hour to use it. I do not knew if you could get follow-on transfers, as I never needed to do that.

Here, on BART, you only pay when you leave the station. If you are a tourist, you can ride around all day peering at the sights (not that much fun on the underground sections) and only pay the minimum 1-stop fare when you leave at the station where you entered.

It's been said that my local bus system, AC Transit, must be carrying 6 fares to break even. Have no idea if it's true, but it came from "on high", so it might be.



spsalso

CW81,

That's not quite true. Amazon does sell products. But they also allow other people to sell through them, much like Ebay. When we get bad product, we talk to Amazon and they've always made it right.

Should we intentionally order cheap shoddy crap, we keep our mouths shut when it fails.


spsalso

to be honest I only ever buy sold and shipped by amazon. I don't do fulfilled by amazon.

Touch wood haven't had anything dodgy yet. Few screwups over the years though.

Ended up with 36 posh fish knives for the price of 6 and they weren't cheap either. They had got the units wrong on the bin so I got 6 boxs. The customer services just laughed and said no prob's keep them.

Down to 25 now left in my tools after 10 years, they are actually very handy in a tool box. Great for changing tyres on kids bikes or slipping in when you separating something. Although they are not quite up to 1mx1mx50mm paving slabs, hence I am down to 25 with also 6 in the cutlery drawer bing used for food.

I think that a transparent analysis of each battery fire event will provide enough background information to ensure the regulators can develop standards that prevent future fires. If each and every one of these fires is due to either a DIY attempt to overspeed the bike ( eg, use 48 V battery pack with a 24 V motor) or the use of a charger /BMS that does not compy to UL or CSA regs , then those facts should be advertised to the public , and mutli-family buildings should not allow the in-home charging of devices that do not meet the UL or CSA regs. From my personal experience trying to minimize the cost of the e-bike by shopping via alibaba.com, many low cost bikes from china do not appear to meet these standards.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

Quote (davefitz)

...many low cost bikes from china do not appear to meet these standards.

And even the ones that appear to may not. Counterfit bolts, anybody?

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

Quote (davefitz)

From my personal experience trying to minimize the cost of the e-bike by shopping via alibaba.com, many low cost bikes from china do not appear to meet these standards.

Companies like Amazon sometimes make an attempt to take non-compliant products off their own marketing, but Amazon is a big enough company which operates in enough countries that there is some recourse available. When the online sale is done through completely offshore means, how do you enforce standards?

I've heard of cases where customs officers have intercepted non-compliant products, but having customs intercept every package and/or shipping container in search of compliance markings on everything, and to make sure there is a retailer involved who can take responsibility, is not happening and I'm not sure we want to go down that path.

If every wheeled vehicle on the roads needed to be licensed and insured, maybe it would help but we'd still have people using non-compliant crap off road. The bicycle lobby would really love that ...

Do-it-yourself battery packs ... yikes. Anyone can buy individual cells.

The other enforcement mechanism is the one that will never happen, insurance companies.
If they had any guts this would be a non-issue.
Sorry the fire was caused by a non-compliant device, your deductible just doubled.
Of course, if insurance companies had the nerve there would be no seatbelt or helmet laws wither, just tiered coverage.
Pay your money and take your chances.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

like it or not the 110V market is different. Its not designed for, its a money maker so they fiddle things.

Nobody ever designs for 60amp 110V its only ever adapted for the market if its worth it.

I might add my solar hardware actually makes it a marketing plus they don't do USA UL regs its a selling point.

I might add thats the reason why emphases is screwed in 50 hz 230V systems with out the nonsense regulations that they have enforced through politicians.


Enphase is garbage extremely redundant gear without the regs.

Maybe the Consumer Product Safety Commission should look into this. If only they weren't so busy already.

I'd say nobody ever designs for 60amp 110V because nobody wires for it.

Typically, 110V circuits only go up to 20 amps. Typically. Over that, they are 220V. THOSE go as high as you want and care to pay for.



spsalso

tug serious but if everything is designed for 230v and is fiddled to take 110v its always going to be a screw up

Quote (EdStainless)

If the weight and max speed were regulated, and they had to make noise then I wouldn't mind them.
But I have been nearly killed by these a couple of times.

Are we talking about 2tonne motor vehicles or tiny little electric scooters here.

The big issue on our roads is and will remain to be personal motor vehicles. Anything that reduces the prevalence of them is a good thing.

Sure there are teething issues with e-scooters and other micro mobility vehicles. Cars have had over a century of development and are still one of the primary sources of accidental death and serious injury.

Micro mobility vehicles are a solution to many urban and environmental problems caused by motor vehicles. Anybody with an interest in safer, more pleasant and lower environmental impact urban transport should see the benefit in micro mobility vehicles.

what do you have ?

Some Emergency Room Doctors have a different view from yours, human909. The cost to the public health system is concerning, but I object to the required change in my own lifestyle. I have given up walking in some parts of the city where hired scooters are like ants.

https://www.racq.com.au/articles/evs/2022/10/e-sco...

but.. the US market doesn't bother the rest of us that are 230/400v 50 hz.

The majority of the problems in e-bikes seem to come from Lithium-Ion cells. The chances of a fire from Lithium-polymers is much lower.

The majority of the problems seem to come from Li-ion cells with improper charging and battery-management - and probably cheap Li-ion cells with who-knows-what quality control. Doesn't matter if it's phones or laptops or e-bikes or power tools or what-not.

Gizmocontraptions with Li-ion batteries that have proper BMS and good quality cells don't catch fire much.

So, how do you stop someone buying stuff overseas and bypass all administrative and regulatory protections because they could get it at a cheaper price?

Why not just buy a mobility scooter? They come with a 'Bucket Seat'! They move at a good clip. You don't have to park. You can just drive right into the store and they don't seem to have the same fire issues as all the new contraptions. I've seen some very tricked out off-road mobility scooters. Just think, we could turn all those 4-lane boulevards into 8 LANES.

"but.. the US market doesn't bother the rest of us that are 230/400v 50 hz."

Curiously, it goes the other direction, also.


spsalso

Spsalso, you called me out. My 10% funding number was a reference to AC Transit.

I am not surprised it doesn't bother you. But this battery stuff is all dc so common problem although we seem to get more cheap trash chargers maybe because the market is bigger.

There was a spate of bad li ion battery chargers and those Segway type systems over here.

They do have a bit of a reputation for lighting off edit- for this reason I got a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery for her scooter - . Hopefully as they proliferate they'll approach automotive levels of reliability. I'm planning to get an e-bike for my wife in the spring, will probably store and charge it outdoors. From what I hear, the carbon footprint of e bikes is less than that of pedal bikes per mile because power generation is cleaner than food production.

moon161, that belongs in the joke thread.

moon161... that is not likely the case if you use fossil fuel for power generation.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Quote:

That's not quite true. Amazon does sell products. But they also allow other people to sell through them, much like Ebay. When we get bad product, we talk to Amazon and they've always made it right.

Amazon itself is one of the worst offenders on that site.

Your point is irrelevant. Laws should be equally applied and consumer protections upheld without special exceptions for online retailers. If your kid dies bc something bought online wasn't safe you're going to want more than a refund but legally you'll be told you have to sue the manufacturer, not the marketplace. If you'd shopped brick&mortar stateside OTOH you'd sue both.

Law in UK and EU is slightly different from that. For imported goods, the importer has the same responsibilities for ensuring compliance as a domestic manufacturer - something that comes as a nasty shock to a few shopkeepers who have filled their shelves with stuff bought off AliBaba.

A.

CWB1,

Asserting something is "irrelevant" without demonstrating that it is, is irrelevant.

You are asserting there are special exceptions to the (American, presumably) law for "online retailers". Could you please provide more detail about those special exceptions?


spsalso

What happens to those compliance responsibilities when an end user buys direct from an offshore vendor? Thd end user is themselves the importer.

A retail store who does that, can have a finger pointed in their direction, but an online shopper, it can only point to themselves.

"but if everything is designed for 230v and is fiddled to take 110v its always going to be a screw up"

It's not though.

I certainly don't consider European electrical stuff to be in any way superior. Just a BS option to claim so.

I wouldn't touch initially 110V 60Hz converted to 230V 50hz either. The AC/DC can handle anything is not an issue eg usb charger.

This stuff isn't European design, its mainly designed in India and the like.

To be honest I don't rate British electrical design very highly. German though I would pay a premium for.

With a lot of the smart gear stuff its just not made for the currents and heat. Example sonoff smart switches they claim to be rated at 16 amps 50/60hz but the plastic an contacts are the same for both. The emf noise stuff is all 50hz optimised. There seems to be a different way of defining the limits. If you only put resistive load through them it might be ok. But as soon as reactive loads go through them they all seem to go to pot.

And there are major changes to the Powerfactor of chargers as well with conversions both ways.

So its not 50hz is better than 60hz or vice versa. Its products designed from the outset for either are better than products fiddled so they can use the other.

The Alibaba/aliexpress chargers are pretty much all designed for 230V 50hz and then butchered into accepting 110V 60Hz. And that goes for the some of the high end stuff as well. If you look at ABB they and siemens they are separate and if its to be multi use then they have to be passed by both as fit for use to the same standards as solo. Which I might add will be TUV German not EU.

That's funny, because I'd prefer to never see another piece of Siemens electrical equipment again.

If you buy shit from Alibaba then what do you expect? Nothing from Alibaba will ever go into my house on 120V power. I prefer my house not on fire.

Quote (To be honest I don't rate British electrical design very highly.)

That's why they like warm beer... British Leyland does the fridges...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

lucas is a swear word in my book as well. UK is shite at electrical, although the UK socket plugs are the way ahead of others, but that's for mechanical reasons not electrosoddomy reasons.

And do they really do fridges? Thank the lord I have never experienced one of them before. The BV boilers in the wagons were pretty useless and that was just a resistance heating element. We used to weld a box onto the exhaust and fill it full of water to cook food.

Actually what's the issue with siemens? always it was ABB gear I was always involved with. Maybe it is also fiddled?

I've had over half a dozen British sportscars over the years... and it's a love-hate relationship... Got my first speeding ticket in my first Cooper-S...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Mate I only drove a foden for 2 years. I just shivered when I typed that. The Bedford's were relatively German in comparison.

UK plugs make the best caltrops. They're huge and most stable with the prongs facing straight up, unlike other plugs that tend to lie with the prongs horizontal. Perfect for "Home Alone" style misadventures. They do have some good things for electrical safety: the long ground pin and shrouded line/neutral pins work well, and the shutter activated by the ground pin is quite a good idea that depends on the longer ground. US NEMA 5-15 has a long ground pin, and shuttered outlets are available, but the contact points for line/neutral are a bit far forward for shrouding to be reliable. The fuse in the UK plugs is a hack to work around the horrible "ring circuit" idea.

As for battery fires, I suspect a big portion of the problem will be numerous devices that don't comply with any safety regulations whatsoever. Until Amazon, Walmart, Alibaba, and such "marketplace" sites are held responsible for the products they sell (or allow others to sell on their sites) unsafe crap will keep getting sold, and some fly-by-night all-caps six-letter shell company will take the blame and disappear. My employer uses LiFePo4 cells due to safety risks (automotive product), it's not the nicest chemistry to use (the V-I discharge curve is nearly flat, then the voltage drops precipitously, so determining the State of Charge (SoC) requires a Coulomb counter which increases BoM cost and charger complexity). With Li-Ion you can estimate the SoC from the voltage well enough, the energy density is higher, the power density is higher, the over-charge prevention and over-discharge prevention circuitry is simpler, it just has that pesky "vent with flame" issue!

yep they also make good phone holders. They never get pulled when some one trips on the wire.

Must admit i have never stood on a UK plug.... The EU sockets/plugs are utter bollocks.

Another article about fires caused by e-scooter and e-bike lithium ion batteries.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-18/e-scooter-l...

These fires are more and more common. Just in Brisbane where I live, there seems to be at least one house lost per week, and the fire department is tired of it. Insurance companies are quickly modifying policy conditions to disallow coverage for fires caused by battery chargin.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/09/tech/lithium-io...

From one of the above:

"One of our challenges is the fact that people are choosing to source product that either should not be [used] together or is of a very low or very inferior quality," he said.

"There is very good quality product being sold through reputable outlets and we want to make sure that as we move forward, the legislation supports the use of these bikes and scooters because we know it has a positive impact."

And more ...

Melbourne-based lithium-ion battery manufacturers like Zakk Goodsell, whose company makes batteries for drones, said it was important for consumers to understand the inherent risk in buying cheap and poorly made products.

"We are worried about undue fear of the technology," Mr Goodsell said.

"It is not inherently more unsafe than say, using a petrol-powered device, but it can get blown out of proportion when incidents occur," he said. "However, the more prolific the products become the more chance that fires will occur.

So, how do you stop someone buying stuff overseas and bypass all administrative and regulatory protections because they could get it at a cheaper price?

"What we are worried about as manufacturers is the lack of appropriate regulation and education around how to use these products appropriately."

Batteries used to be extremely safe alkaline and lead acid were essential impossible to set on fire. Lead acid had the hydrogen problem that was easily mitigated by leaving holes on the top of the enclosure. But saying lithium batteries aren't anymore unsafe than petrol engine isn't exactly good advertising considering most people don't run petrol devices in their homes.

Some old one liners:
Lucas. Prince of Darkness.
The three positions of a Lucas headlight switch; Off, Dim, Flicker.
Lucas also makes brake systems for trucks.
The motto of the brake division.
"We carry on where others halt."
And of course, the warm bear. Lucas makes refrigerators.

I am wondering where 110 Volts, 60 Hz is used.
It was phased out in North America in the 50s and 60s.
Standard voltages and the rated voltages on appliances jumped every 5 years.
I remember 112 Volt appliances, 115 Volt appliances, 117 Volt appliances and finally 120 Volt appliances.
Motor standard voltages stopped at 115 Volts and multiples thereof to allow for line drop.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

You mention Lucas to the younger generations and they don't have a clue what your on about.

I have a liking for German TUV electrical gear.

British apart from MK sockets I tend to avoid.

110V was always the standard building site tools voltage in Europe.

Actually here is an example of something I would be a bit wary of using 120V 60HZ but don't have an issue with 230V 50HZ low usage.

I have just ordered one due to finding out that AGM stop start battery's have a bit of a problem with your old none smart chargers.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005047253758.h...

The local ones as far as I can tell are the same model but with a different sticker on and they are wanting 120 euro for them. The German smart chargers twice that! But as its only for occasional emergency use it will do.

What I think is common is people get something like that and they get absolutely hammered everyday. I wouldn't expect it to survive doing 3 repair runs a day for a month. BUt that's what folk are doing with these e bike chargers, charge one battery pack and stick the old one on to charge come back later after using the fresh one up and swap. And they may have 2-3 bikes being serviced by the same charger.

Sure Alistair, they come from the same factory and are in the same case with all the same stickers.
But that doesn't mean that any of the design or parts are the same.
I have tried buying replacement parts electronics online and unless the link to the online store is directly from the original sellers web site I won't trust it.
The online resellers don't care if products are criminally bad as long as they get their cut.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

That's the good thing about buying German stuff. They have a right to fix law and its pretty easy to get spare parts in Germany. Infect a lot of the gear you can get direct from the OEM.

Swedish as well is designed to be fixed though even though I don't think they have a law,

Its all about Li Ion battery's. There have been plenty of EV's and EV buses that have done the same.

Yep don't understand why li-ion is even legal to be used for solar inside houses.

Quote (enginesrus)

Its all about Li Ion battery's. There have been plenty of EV's and EV buses that have done the same.

Only improperly-engineered ones.

Ballpark one-in-a-thousand combustion-engine vehicles is involved in a reported car fire in the USA every year. (174,000ish reported vehicle fires in USA in 2021)

The rate of fires among EVs in the US market is something like an order of magnitude lower, possibly even less. The difference seems to be that every single one makes the nightly news.

Well if Boeing couldn't engineer them not to go on fire in the 787....

In the US responsibility for regulation is a bit scattered. I found the following on UL's site, some attention to requiring adherence to safety standards is emerging.

Quote (https://www.ul.com/industries/automotive-and-mobil...)

New York City Council’s law on micromobility devices and batteries
In a move to strengthen fire safety of e-bikes, e-scooters, and the lithium-ion batteries that power such devices, the New York City Council has passed a new law on Mar 2, 2023, mandating e-bikes, e-scooters, e-mobility devices, and light electric vehicle (EV) battery packs to be 3rd party certified to:

• UL 2849, the Standard for Electrical Systems for eBikes
• UL 2272, the Standard for Electrical Systems in Personal E-Mobility Devices
• UL 2271, the Standard for Batteries for Use In Light Electric Vehicle (LEV) Applications

This will take effect from August 29, 2023, which means that the distribution, sale, lease or rental of micromobility devices or batteries that have not been certified to the applicable UL safety standards by an accredited testing laboratory will be prohibited. For details of the law that has passed, you may find it at this link.

I do mot remember seeing any third party testing laboratory marks on the local fleet of e-scooters.

some ferry boats are now refusing to allow EV cars to board due to the inability to put out a fire at sea and its reultant effect on passenger safety. It is just a matter of time before a similar restriction is applied to parking an EV below a building.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

I looked for background concerning the above post, and I found this, concerning ONE ferry company: https://www.ctif.org/news/norwegian-shipping-compa...

Evidently this is based upon a risk assessment that was done for the company.

"The competitor Hurtigruten makes a different assessment and will continue to allow all types of cars."

I know about risk assessments. They can be subject to interpretation. A risk analysis that considers only the "severity" of a particular event can have one outcome, while another that considers the "frequency" as well could have another outcome.

If the overall fire risk of an EV, taking into account both how severe the outcome is and how frequently it occurs, is so dramatically high compared to conventional cars then it would absolutely show up in higher insurance rates, and my personal experience is that this is not the case.

It is fair to say that EV fires can be difficult to put out ... but it also has to be said that the frequency of such events is extremely low, and particularly if the vehicle is neither being driven nor is plugged in and charging nor is being involved in a flood.

risk can be economic and if revenue pays for the risk then its fine.

That depends on whose risk and whose revenue.

And of course the MBA's bonus point.

Here is a link to the EU issues related to ferry boats carrying EV's. The basic safety recommendations seem to be to board them if they are lesss than 50% charged. Several ship fires were worsened by the onboard fire spreading to the EV's, making the fire impossible to put out.

<www.evfiresafe.com/post/electric-vehicle-fires-on-...;

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

It does t help that Norway's only electric ferry had a battery fire of its own which led to an explosion.

https://www.ctif.org/news/explosion-norwegian-batt...

I saw this article today:

https://www.batterytechonline.com/testing-and-safe...

It would seem that improper charging and improper storage are typical causes if not the primary causes of these flammability issues. I would think that the next major change needed for this industry is to idiot-proof the charging and storage requirements. I am not in that industry, but if anyone on the forum is in the industry, it would be nice to hear how efforts are progressing for those areas.

Quote (Alistair)

And we have a company called Bolt which does escooters via an app on the phone. There is a map which tells you where the nearest one is and how much range it has and logs you into it via a bar code and logs you off it at the other end. They are about 1.50 euro for 5 km. They are not slow either two settings 15km/hour or 25km/hr. The its not worth owning your own at that price for me.

These are now basically universal in all major cities in the US. There are maybe a dozen different companies, which all operate on the same model. Find a scooter (or just walk up to one and scan a QR code) using their app, pay a few bucks, speed off into the night.

Each city has their own ordinances that govern the scooters. Some cities limit how many companies and how many scooters in service per company, etc. Some limit the area they can be used. Some have no rules in place at all - and in those cities, in my experience, the scooters become an absolute plague; there will be piles of them in the sidewalk on every downtown corner that has a bar on a Friday or Saturday night, to the point where people on foot sometimes have to walk in the street to get around them. So having limits sounds draconian but seems to be the best policy so far in a lot of places.

its the cheaper preferred chemistry that carries the risk.

Some one needs to start manufacturing in house battery storage containers that are like huge fire places or ovens with smoke stacks, so we all can safely store all our Li battery devices in the home.

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so we all can safely store all our Li battery devices in the home.

That's great for small batteries, but not so much for electric cars; I doubt that anyone can even remove such batteries without an autoshop/tools.

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This was an April Fool's joke:

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/04/01/exclusive-c....

But, it's all a joke until one these cars catches fire on a bridge or worse, in a tunnel. Tank trucks and hazardous chemical carriers are already banned on our local bridges and in our tunnels.

I see it reported that Paris will be banning rental E-scooters. Good riddance.

Uh Huh, I can see it now- a LNG transport truck , powered by a lithium battery, catches fire in the middle of the Lincoln tunnel. A good day to be on vacation in Hawaii.

Actually there are a lot of potential hazards associated with the lithium batteries. Airlines already prohibit them in checked baggage. Imagine some woke person installs a household lithium battery on the 20th floor of a 60 floor high rise and it catches fire. A good day to be working late at the office with the personal secretary.

Other high hazard locations include ferries, underground parking lots, parking near storage tanks that contain flammable fluids, etc. The regulations that prohibit the use or locations of these batteries might not yet be fully mature and may not be regarded as neccesary until after some dramatic catastrophe occurs.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

they are a fecking nightmare on an aircraft. Be it in the hold or in the cabin.

It seems to me that the penalty for making crappy products is too lenient, or nonexistent.

Another method for controlling bad product is to do what China did when powdered milk producers were found to be supplementing their products with melamine powder; they executed the producers, after fair and impartial trials.

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Even the high spec good Li ion products are self combusting in aircraft cabins. I phones getting crushed with seat get reclined have more of a hit rate than android. Quite why the stats differentiate between the two i have absolutely no clue.

And no I don't have a link and no I am not going to post an internally issued document from my company's safety department

We're talking about events that happen in maybe the dozen or so range per year across literally billions of devices in use... does anyone think that eliminating every possible failure is a real possibility?

its way way more than a dozen in the USA alone never mind world wide.

As a relatively small airline we have 5-10 li ion events per year in the cabin.

I read an article just today from the FAA fire safety website (links below first to FAA website and second to the PDF). The central point is that the State of Charge greatly influences the relative hazard of Lithium-ion batteries. The greater the State of Charge percentage (Actual Charge divided by Full Charge Capacity multiplied by 100) the greater the hazard for both initiating a fire and contributing to a fire started from another source.

https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/

https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/tctn23-34.pdf

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The central point is that the State of Charge greatly influences the relative hazard of Lithium-ion batteries.

That would make sense; a dead battery has not much energy to do much of anything. So, just need to discharge the batteries before shipping; easy-peasy

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Perhaps banning E-scooter hire will help. But maybe not, as the ones which cause fires are charged at home, not on the street. But it is a step in the right direction, safety wise.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/05/opinions/escoot...

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But maybe not, as the ones which cause fires are charged at home, not on the street.

The freestanding e-bikes and scooters on the street aren't charged on the street; that would take way too much infrastructure and time. Instead, a truck goes around the city and swaps out discharged batteries for fresh ones.

The French rejection of e-scooters, etc., probably wasn't about anything other than not being a French idea; it's just the way they roll.

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I get what you say about the French. But I just hope that my city, Brisbane, will get the message. These scooters clog up the hospital emergency departments, as told by the emergency doctors and ambulance drivers.