I am seeing more and more SE’s not design the Steel connections and instead leave this item to be done by the fabricator. I don’t mind because we are often hired by fabricators to complete their work. But if you are hired to do a job, do it, don’t just spec “connections by others”. What do you do, design the Connections or Specify them?
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Structural Connections 4
- Thread starter BRGENG
- Start date
So in a somewhat odd twist of events, it looks like we are going to be our own specialty engineer on one of our buildings. We have done specialty engineering for metal fabs for a few years now, mostly stairs and handrails and the like, but some connection design now and then for "lazy EORs who delegate connection design", who like connectegr, we love! (That was tongue and cheek, take it easy..)
One of our newer fab clients just won the steel packages on a building design we did, and is probably going to have us modify some of our connections to all-bolted (how their shop is set up), and have us do the stairs and landing design too. Anyone ever else do this? I am 99% sure there is no ethical problem here, do we need to send a courtesy email to our architect client letting them know what we are up to? It won't cost the architect any more fees, nor the owner, since any work we do for the fabricator comes out of his contract...
One of our newer fab clients just won the steel packages on a building design we did, and is probably going to have us modify some of our connections to all-bolted (how their shop is set up), and have us do the stairs and landing design too. Anyone ever else do this? I am 99% sure there is no ethical problem here, do we need to send a courtesy email to our architect client letting them know what we are up to? It won't cost the architect any more fees, nor the owner, since any work we do for the fabricator comes out of his contract...
a2mfk,
You should make sure everyone knows about this and agrees with it before getting further involved. See 4.a. and 4.b. of NSPE Code of Ethics.
4. Engineers shall act for each employer or client as faithful agents or trustees.
a. Engineers shall disclose all known or potential conflicts of interest that could influence or appear to influence their judgment or the quality of their services.
b. Engineers shall not accept compensation, financial or otherwise, from more than one party for services on the same project, or for services pertaining to the same project, unless the circumstances are fully disclosed and agreed to by all interested parties.
BA
You should make sure everyone knows about this and agrees with it before getting further involved. See 4.a. and 4.b. of NSPE Code of Ethics.
4. Engineers shall act for each employer or client as faithful agents or trustees.
a. Engineers shall disclose all known or potential conflicts of interest that could influence or appear to influence their judgment or the quality of their services.
b. Engineers shall not accept compensation, financial or otherwise, from more than one party for services on the same project, or for services pertaining to the same project, unless the circumstances are fully disclosed and agreed to by all interested parties.
BA
You're welcome, a2mfk. It is unlikely that a conflict will arise, but if, for example the owner has a dispute with the contractor respecting the structural steel package, you cannot very well represent both the owner and the fabricator in legal proceedings because you have worked for both parties on the same project.
BA
BA
JennyNakamura
Structural
csd,
I agree with you. My response was a bit over the top.
BRENG, please accept my apologies.
I guess its just frustrating to me that someone (or some people) could lump an entire group of people together and criticize them for not designing their own connections and call them things like "lazy" or "90 % engineers". This is something they have absolutely zero control over. If they feel that strongly about it, one could argue that it's the SE's working for the fabricators that are to blame, after all aren't they the ones responsible for allowing the custom of delegating steel connections to fabricators to even exist in the first place? However, that's even more ridiculous than the original argument. You could spin this topic in so many directions it would never end.
I work in an area where it is expected that the SEOR design all the steel connections. The thought of delegating connections is not even an option. However, I personally feel that on many of the more complicated projects (stadiums and arenas I have been involved with), the SE's at the fabricators can design much better connections, both from a design and a constructability perspective. A lot of complicated steel projects I've worked on I would say connection design was probably 20 or 30% of the design effort. Why not let guys like connectegr design the connections from the start? SEORs are typically like general internal medicine doctors, why not let the specialists handle the specialties? I wouldn't want my general practictioner to remove my brain tumor (if I had one)...
If the concern is engineering fees, there are much more deep-rooted issues with the way engineering businesses operate that we need to address than demanding to the client that we design all our own steel connections.
I'm just making a stand for all the lazy 90% engineers out there that are forced to delegate their steel connection designs and who have no control over the situation -- they're just doing their jobs and trying to get through the day to pay their bills and raise their kids.
I agree with you. My response was a bit over the top.
BRENG, please accept my apologies.
I guess its just frustrating to me that someone (or some people) could lump an entire group of people together and criticize them for not designing their own connections and call them things like "lazy" or "90 % engineers". This is something they have absolutely zero control over. If they feel that strongly about it, one could argue that it's the SE's working for the fabricators that are to blame, after all aren't they the ones responsible for allowing the custom of delegating steel connections to fabricators to even exist in the first place? However, that's even more ridiculous than the original argument. You could spin this topic in so many directions it would never end.
I work in an area where it is expected that the SEOR design all the steel connections. The thought of delegating connections is not even an option. However, I personally feel that on many of the more complicated projects (stadiums and arenas I have been involved with), the SE's at the fabricators can design much better connections, both from a design and a constructability perspective. A lot of complicated steel projects I've worked on I would say connection design was probably 20 or 30% of the design effort. Why not let guys like connectegr design the connections from the start? SEORs are typically like general internal medicine doctors, why not let the specialists handle the specialties? I wouldn't want my general practictioner to remove my brain tumor (if I had one)...
If the concern is engineering fees, there are much more deep-rooted issues with the way engineering businesses operate that we need to address than demanding to the client that we design all our own steel connections.
I'm just making a stand for all the lazy 90% engineers out there that are forced to delegate their steel connection designs and who have no control over the situation -- they're just doing their jobs and trying to get through the day to pay their bills and raise their kids.
Jenny,
As I understand you work for a fabricator, or subcontracted at the least.
You must understand that from a EOR point of view we are all in a far too competitive market. For example, if three engineering consultants are to bid on a project, we do not clarify to the Owner that 'connection designs' are included in our cost... quite simply put because they DO NOT CARE. These connection designs are a part of the 'hard costs' and not the 'soft costs'. Soft costs to the Owner are a drop in the bucket and if we are 10k higher than the lowest bidder in order to do connection designs they will 100% of the time pick the lower costing engineer, regardless of the connection service provided; again this is buried in the hard cost.
We understand your frustration but you must understand the complexities of both angles here.
Dik, I agree with you completely as it seems we may have been bidding on similar projects.
As I understand you work for a fabricator, or subcontracted at the least.
You must understand that from a EOR point of view we are all in a far too competitive market. For example, if three engineering consultants are to bid on a project, we do not clarify to the Owner that 'connection designs' are included in our cost... quite simply put because they DO NOT CARE. These connection designs are a part of the 'hard costs' and not the 'soft costs'. Soft costs to the Owner are a drop in the bucket and if we are 10k higher than the lowest bidder in order to do connection designs they will 100% of the time pick the lower costing engineer, regardless of the connection service provided; again this is buried in the hard cost.
We understand your frustration but you must understand the complexities of both angles here.
Dik, I agree with you completely as it seems we may have been bidding on similar projects.
I think I may have been the first person to use the "L" word (lazy) to describe some engineers, who knew we were so sensitive? I guess most engineers consider themselves to be worker bees. Anyway, this is what I said to clarify, and I am not saying it is lazy to delegate connection design, only to not provide reactions on your drawings for guys like me 
"I think it is nothing short of laziness to not put the service reactions on your drawings when delegating connection design. If you use RAM or similar you can simply print the results and hand that to your CAD person. I think Modern Steel and AISC are also of this position. As I said before, I think its a good piece of info to have on your plans even if you are designing the connections."
"I think it is nothing short of laziness to not put the service reactions on your drawings when delegating connection design. If you use RAM or similar you can simply print the results and hand that to your CAD person. I think Modern Steel and AISC are also of this position. As I said before, I think its a good piece of info to have on your plans even if you are designing the connections."
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