Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05 111

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04


SF Charlie
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[zebraso]

Anybody else?

Well I think I see j shaped rebar, but then it's all subjective. I have changed my mind on the roof paper rolls. "They" seem to be inflection of the enhancement level shift on what is really the edge of the fallen slab in shadow. But what I "see" now is the base vertically of the broken (missing) missing column where it should be with sheer damage at about the height of a car bumper , or slightly higher - where it ends. But like has been said it's grainy. Perhaps someone could enhance with the intent of bring out that detail.

 

[Mark R]

If the garage had a deluge system, a broken water pipe may not trigger an alarm.
Some deluge systems use open sprinkler heads and a second dry, air pressurized pilot system.

You have to remember that this is in Miami and dry systems are not required, whether never gets that cold. Besides, deluge systems are not normal in parking garages any place, they are mainly used in industrial complexes. In cold climates parking garages have either a dry system (similar to a deluge system like you described but when one had pops the system fills with water and heads open individually if required) or they have a normal sprinkler system that's filled with an antifreeze solution.

It's still interesting that if the collapse happened like some people are speculating the fire alarm system didn't sound. I obviously don't know the codes in Miami but most places require annual system checks where flow switches are tested to ensure that the alarm will sound, this is done by opening a test valve at the end of the line.

I still can't get over that fact that everybody is seen so much in these pictures. They are just seeing what they believe supports their hypothesis of how the collapse started. We have no definitive facts at this time kindness what the sequence of events was. Even the information we have from tenants is only speculative because it's a proven fact that people are not good witnesses in many cases. Especially in a state of panic I don't remember the sequence, timing or other facts of the event.

 

[SFCharlie]

I guess I am totally confused. The video with the water streaming down was taken from the north side of CTS. How did anything from the vicinity of the elevators get into the garage and break a pipe on the north side of the building?

SF Charlie
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[NOLAscience]

Cringe-worthy interview with a real estate agent parasite about a week ago. The giggle at 1:30, the mention of "low maintenance" in the sales pitch at the end -- it's all sickening. 15:20 on is particularly insulting to viewers. "Don't be afraid of condos." "Bring your flip-flops!" They get 6% of the project cost to take some photos and unlock the door to "show" the property. They pretend to be legal experts, but they write themselves out of almost all responsibility by passing that on to the sellers and buyers.

https://youtu.be/MFTRfsRTpZE

 

[Tropmet]

Video still from the Miami-Dade Fire Rescue behind-the-scenes look from yesterday. I wonder what will be left to analyze as it does appear that the area of interest regards the collapse has/is being addressed with heavy machinery and cleared. The picture quality of the video unfortunately was poor and I have been unable to find a better quality image. But this does show continuation of the clearing of the plaza deck area to get down to the garage level, removing the vehicles and all the debris.

 

[Tropmet]

Another photo to explain the area near the pool has looked like this for some time…this is an image taken prior to the 4th when the rest of the building was brought down. Again photo quality not the greatest.

 

[NOLAscience]

Spartan 5, you have a concrete and masonry parapet wall surrounding roof, that is around 42" high to deflect wind from blowing outdoor units around

I have a nearly solid 72" fence around my backyard. It does not prevent wind from blowing things on my patio away during tropical storms, not to mention hurricanes.

Having said that, has anyone done an overturning analysis of the HVAC units? Aren't they fairly heavy and most of the weight is at the bottom?

 

[bones206]

 

[Mark R]

https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/v1626029988/tips/image_tejif6.png

What I find interesting about this picture is that the anchor on the left side still has concrete attacks to it whereas the one on the right doesn't. I didn't see any documentation about what type of anchor they were using but the left one certainly looks like they were using a epoxy type anchoring system and the one on the right doesn't. Epoxy based anchoring systems are designed to be stronger than the concrete which obviously with the case here. Normally you would expect a large hunk of concrete to still be attached to the anchor but we are only seeing may be 1/4"-1/2" of concrete still attached which tells me that the concrete itself was extremely weak and deteriorating. I really can't think of a good reasons that we are not seeing anything attached to the right hand anchor of the possibility that they just stuck it in the hole without any epoxy!

 

[Murph 9000]

I guess I am totally confused. The video with the water streaming down was taken from the north side of CTS. How did anything from the vicinity of the elevators get into the garage and break a pipe on the north side of the building?

It's taken from the north side, but you're seeing all the way through to the south side. On the left of the ramp, the full height wall is the stairwell, and the far side is aligned with the central corridor. The column at the end of the half wall is M8, in the middle of the south side apartments. The column beyond that is M9.1, and the southern wall of the building. The pipe break is roughly in line with the southern wall, below the x11 apartment stack balconies.

 

[jbourne8]

bones206, they look more like rocks in the video itself than they do in the photo btw. Also, the columns were an equal distance apart.. including that one on the ramp itself.

 

[spsalso]

julootamu (Mechanical)11 Jul 21 19:05
Probably 200A electric service per condo or more if they have tankless water heaters. My Steibel 21kW tankless has two 50A breakers for total of 100A. For a large family you need a 36kW 180A tankless meaning electric panel over 200A. Or they could have natural gas either per unit or central.

The building was Three phase Y, 208V/120V.

Leaving out the penthouses, each unit had a 125A main breaker.

Each unit had a 208V electric range, water heater, AC/heat [?], and optional dryer. Plus, of course, various 120V equipment.




spsalso

 

[bones206]

bones206, they look more like rocks in the video itself than they do in the photo btw

Just watched the video, and agree with you those white spots are stationary objects. But I still see the water level the same as in the photo.

 

[bones206]

Also, the columns were an equal distance apart.. including that one on the ramp itself.

Sym P. Le did a nice job earlier showing the perspective of where we would expect to see column M11.1. It's pretty much exactly where I see it broken into multiple pieces. It's not the exact angle or perspective, so it's slightly off, but it leaves little doubt in my mind that we are seeing the remains of column M11.1.

Also note you can see the white license plate of the same car in both photos.

 

[Optical98]

Hello, I'm new here o/

I've been following y'all along these threads for a few days now. As we're real curious as to what's beyond the parking garage gate, I took a look at the 40 Yr Review Plans. I noticed there's several pages regarding the adding of a new Generator and Fire Pump, and along with that the need to reinforce the Generator Room floor because the new equipment is quite a bit heavier.

Do we know if this work was completed? Because the Generator room is directly over the Garage Ramp.
Link
Link
Link
Link

This last link reflects new piping which I believe was added and we see them here:
Link

 

[NOLAscience]

Investigate Eric Zion:

(1) We need an interview with Eric Zion AND his wife Tamar in the days after the collapse. This is the man who with his wife arrived home from a trip at 10:30 pm and then immediately left to check into a hotel. He came back and spent an extended amount of time gathering things for an overnight at a hotel, when presumably he already had his toothbrush in his suitcase!

(2) What car was he driving? What was its condition, prior to the demo of the remaining portion of Champlain Towers South? What space was it parked in?

(3) Which hotel did he check into? Did he tell the clerk why he was there? Did he seem nervous? Would he have to pay for parking at that hotel? Did he have another vehicle parked on the street nearby that he switched with the car that crashed into the column?

(4)

<<First noises began at 12:30am. ( Observation: Eric Zion said he parked his car at the Garage at roughly the same time and left in his scooter short after. How did he not see the collapsed deck? Would be useful to know what parking spot he was assigned and see if it is near the possible locations for the first collapse.

https://www.wlrn.org/news/2021-06-2...apse-in-surfside-leaves-one-dead-many-injured

>>

(5)

https://www.wlrn.org/news/2021-06-24/i-felt-the-entire-room-shake-partial-building-collapse-in-surfside-leaves-one-dead-many-injured[/URL]]"A stroke of dumb luck might well have saved Eric Zion’s life. He lives in the Champlain Towers South building and he said he got back from a trip at about 10:30pm Wednesday night and, for some reason, the lights were shut off in his apartment. He doesn't know why his power was out but it pushed him to make a decision that he and his wife were going to rent a hotel room in the neighborhood just for the night. They planned to figure out the power situation in the morning.

“We drove out at like maybe 11:30ish, went to the hotel, took everything out, and then at approximately 12:30am, I came back to return my car to the parking lot. Then I went upstairs to get my scooter and I was probably in the apartment for 20, 30 minutes so I probably left like 12:50, close to 1:00,” Zion said.

The building collapsed at about 1:15am.

“I went to the hotel. I don't know anything happened until I saw, like messages come up on my phone from people in the neighborhood,” said Zion. “I was like, ‘No way. I was just there.’ Like, how did that happen? So then I took my scooter and I came here and I'm like, 'What?' And I was literally just there when I put my car in, the whole garage collapsed. So my car is totaled. But like, you know, it could have been me.”

(6) Here's the timeline and some details from Reddit:

<<Eric and Tamar Zion came home at 10:30 and power was out in their apartment on the uncollapsed side.

They left at 11:30 for hotel.

Eric arrived back at the parking garage at 12:30am

At that very moment, Sarah Nir begins hearing "construction" noises from the garage at 12:30am.

Sarah Nir eventually goes to the security guard in the lobby to complain.

Between 12:30am and 12:50am/1:00am (Eric couldn't exactly recall) he was up in the apartment to get his scooter and then leave back to the hotel.

While Sarah Nir was with the security guard, the pool/patio deck collapsed at 1:14-1:15am. At least part of it. Sarah and the security guard mistake this for an earthquake. She immediately rushes back to apt 111. It is unclear why the security guard at this point does not start notifying the residents or pulling the general fire alarm. There are now 7 minutes until full building collapse.>>

Think about this scenario: Eric Zion arrives home, is tired, and in parking slams into a column (brake/accelerator mixup -- happens all the time). Column falls, but not on his car. He leaves for a hotel because it doesn't take Einstein's son (a civil engineer) to figure out that a building that is missing a column in the garage is unsafe. He checks into hotel, but wants some of his valuables from his apartment. You know, the evacuation files, jewelry, mementos of his parents, etc. So he goes back and leaves car, then departs for the safety of a hotel on his scooter.

He was probably just hoping that he would not be blamed for crashing into the column. I'm sure he'd be charged about $15,000 by the condo board to replace it, and he may have been held liable for displacing residents once the damage was noticed. Who can afford that? He probably didn't want to pay for the property damage, even with insurance. He may have hoped that the column was not visible on the security cams, and it probably wasn't, based on descriptions of the system and it's focus on entrances and elevators, etc.

Thanks to all who kept coming back to wonder about "the guy who left earlier in the evening to check into a hotel". I hope investigators are exploring the potential precipitating event of a crash into a column.

 

[Demented]

I do not believe the generator was replaced yet. That would have required some of the offsite parking the building was somewhat requesting, along with replacement of the upper pool deck slab, waterproofing, and pavers. I need to look through the restoration plans again but I'm pretty sure the board didn't even vote on funding the generator yet.



Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[jbourne8]

bones206, that picture isn't of the CTS garage btw.. and it's also not lined up properly. Note the center of the second column (27) in both photos.. it's not centered, which pushes the rest of the columns further right.

It seems plausible that the missing column could be hiding under the large planter area though.. although it makes no sense that it was pulled in that direction when we know nothing collapsed over there. But I'm definitely not a structural engineer.

NOLAscience, can we avoid the witch hunts in this forum? Leave that part to the cops. It's one thing to suggest that a car crashed into it, but it's another thing to start throwing names around. We know almost nothing about these people.

 

[bones206]

I believe that photo is from the CTS garage. See Sym P. Le's post on 10 Jul 21 22:58. If you account for the difference in angle, the columns would look to be spaced closer together in the viewpoint of the tik tok video as compared to the google earth photo.

 

[AutisticBez]

NOLA,

Nobody is driving a car anywhere after slamming into a column at 40 - 50 km/h.

First the crumple zone will have wrecked the engine. Its not going anywhere. So I dunno if he did it or not.

People keep drawing M11.1 as being the same size as M10. Its not. Look at the building drawings. Its 12x16. Its 4 inches thinner on the side that would make it dangerous to a ramp collision.

I cited a real study which tested vehicle impacts with columns. 12 inch / 30cm column was bottom sheared at 50km/h. Thats ideal strength concrete. I think a car could damage this column at a slower speed.

The ramp is 64 feet in length. The column is another 40 feet away. How fast can a car accelerate down the ramp into a column? Its almost precise. The vehicle would continue beyond the impact. Somewhere down the back?

Debris from roof is incapable of destroying M11.1 a vehicle however is. Proven by real testing data. 50km/h is all it takes to bottom shear 30cm column.