## Wire Amps, for give size.

## Wire Amps, for give size.

(OP)

If I had rectangular strips of copper that were not industry standard size so no ampacity table existed for them. How would I calculate Ampacity? It seems that trying to match a specific circular mill area in the standard wire is not accurate.

I guess another way to ask is what is the ampacity of a given circular mill. When arranged in a rectangle (line a Bus) vs round ( like a wire)

I guess another way to ask is what is the ampacity of a given circular mill. When arranged in a rectangle (line a Bus) vs round ( like a wire)

This is your life and its ending one moment at a time.

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

https://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/bus...

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

"....I guess another way to ask is what is the ampacity of a given circular mill. When arranged in a rectangle (line a Bus) vs round ( like a wire)..."I look at it in two different main factors:

1. The ampacity is dependent on the temperature:

(a) for bare copper busbar the temperature is limited to say > 70 but < 100

^{o}C.(b) for insulated conductor is dependent on the type of insulation , say PVC limited to 70

^{o}C; VPE limited to 90^{o}C etc.....2. The temperature rise is dependent on the natural cooling; mainly by conduction , radiation and convection by air etc....

Say a 100 mm

^{2}material be it copper or aluminum; it can be in round (5.6 dia), square (10x10), (20W x 5T) or (20H x 5T ) etc.... of the same cross-sectional area . When say 1A flowing through them, they will be heated up equally.But, their surface temperature/temperature-rise differ due to different cooling surface area and their deposition... etc..Che Kuan Yau (Singapore)

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

I guess the answer would be to compare similar cross section area to perimeter ratios from standard tables to find the best comparison that relates the conducting area and cooling ability.

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

A square conductor that is 1 sq inch has a perimeter of 4 inches

that same 1 sq inch round wire has a perimeter of 3.55 inches

so yes %100 temperature/temperature-rise differs due to different cooling surface area

is there a way mathematically to get from one point to another?

@davidbeach is there any documentation on this? the rectangular wire I'm looking at has insulation. so 1000A per in^2. 1000A for a 4 x 0.25 bus bar aT what temp?

This is your life and its ending one moment at a time.

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

Note, however, that ampacity only applies to an isolated wire in air, Anything that affects the heat transfer will technically alter the ampacity

TTFN (ta ta for now)

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## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

"....so yes %100 temperature/temperature-rise differs due to different cooling surface area......is there a way mathematically to get from one point to another?..."Please refer to the

"CDA publication 22"This is avery old and out of print book. Google it, you still can get some information out of it. Inchapter 3, Calculation of current-carrying capacity ....heat loss by convection, radiation and conduction are illustrated in detail.Attention: There are some typo errors.

Caveat emptor.Please inform me if you face difficulties from Google, or from public libraries/ technical universities etc...

Che Kuan Yau (Singapore)

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

Here's the book being referenced.

https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/res/Copp...

In the real world those numbers will mean little unless these "wires" are uninsulated, mounted in free air outside and without the sun shining on them. This info is useless for bars in an enclosure.

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

I am trying to determine the ampacity difference in 2 wires of the same KCMILL, with the same insulation installed in the same location at the same temp.

All else being equal how does the shape of a wire affect ampacity and is their math that gets me from one shape to another?

This is your life and its ending one moment at a time.

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

It depends!

Here are some of the factors that determine rated ampacity;

Maximum temperature.

Conditions of use.

Duty cycle.

Wind speed.

Installers in Canada are governed by the following rule tables.

The bad news?

These tables are for field installations and do not cover panel building.

For that you must use a code to which I do not have access.

Canadian Electrical Code, Part I

302 © 2015 CSA Group

Table 1Allowable ampacities for single unshielded copper

conductors, rated not more than 5000 V, in free air

(based on an ambient temperature of 30 °C*)

(See Rules 4-004, 4-006, 8-104, 12-2210, 12-2260, 26-142, 42-008, and 42-016 and

Tables 5A, 5B, and 19.)

Size,

AWG or kcmil

Allowable ampacity†

60 °C‡ 75 °C‡ 90 °C‡§ 110 °C‡ See Note (3) 125 °C‡ See Note (3) 200 °C‡ See Note (3)

Table 2Allowable ampacities for not more than three copper conductors,

rated not more than 5000 V and unshielded, in raceway or cable

(based on an ambient temperature of 30 °C*)

(SIMILAR TEMPERATURE RANGES)

Table 5ACorrection factors applying to Tables 1, 2, 3, and 4 (ampacity

correction factors for ambient temperatures above 30 °C)

Table 5BCorrection factors for Tables 1 and 3 (where from two to

four single conductors are present and spaced less than

25% of the largest cable diameter)

Table 5DCurrent rating correction factors where spacings are maintained

(in ventilated and ladder-type cable trays)

Table 12Allowable ampacity of flexible copper conductor cord and equipment wire

(based on an ambient temperature of 30 °C)

Table 12AAllowable ampacities for portable copper conductor power cables (amperes per conductor)

Table 12BTemperature correction factor

(See Tables 12A and 12E.)

Table 12CConductor rating correction factor

(See Tables 12A and 12E.)

Table 12DLayering correction factor

Table 12EAllowable ampacities for Type DLO cables in

a permanent installation in cable tray

Table 28

Determining conductor sizes in the secondary circuits of motors

(See Rule 28-112.)

Classification of service

Percentage of nameplate current rating of motor

5-minute

rating

15-minute

rating

30- and 60-

minute rating

Continuous

rating

Short-time duty

Operating valves, raising or

lowering rolls, etc.

110 120 150 —

Intermittent duty

Freight and passenger elevators,

tool heads, pumps, drawbridges,

turntables, etc.

85 85 90 140

Periodic duty

Rolls, ore- and coal-handling

machines, etc.

85 90 95 140

Varying duty 110 120 150 200

Note: For motor-generator arc welders see Section 42.

Resistor duty classification Duty cycles

Carrying capacity of

conductors in per cent of full

load secondary circuit

Light starting duty 5 s on 75 s off 35%

Heavy starting duty 10 s on 70 s off 45%

Extra-heavy starting duty 15 s on 75 s off 55%

Light intermittent duty 15 s on 45 s off 65%

Medium intermittent duty 15 s on 30 s off 75%

Heavy intermittent duty 15 s on 15 s off 90%

Continuous duty Continuous duty 110%

Table 36AMaximum allowable ampacity for aluminum

conductor neutral supported cables

Table 36BMaximum allowable ampacity for copper

conductor neutral supported cables

Table 57Allowable ampacities for Class 2 copper conductors

(based on an ambient temperature of 30 °C†)

Table 58Ampacities of up to four insulated copper conductors in raceway

or cable for short-time-rated crane and hoist motors

(based on an ambient temperature of 30 °C)

Table 66Ampacities of bare or covered conductors in free air, based

on 40 °C ambient, 80 °C total conductor temperature,

and 610 mm/s wind velocity

--------------------

Ohm's lawNot just a good idea;

It's the LAW!## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

AppleJaxJap:In addition to the lengthy list supplied by, you also might need to consider the frequency of your current waveform. High frequencies require very large cross-sections to convey current since the usable conductor is limited to what is called "skin effect" - in essence, it isn't the cross-section that's important, but the perimeter. For more normal line frequencies, the whole conductor cross-section can be used.warossIn one of your previous posts, you indicated that you have insulated wire - just two different shapes (rectangular and/or circular). Given the identical environment conditions (proximity to other conductors, insulation type and thickness, ambient temperature, same cooling method, etc.) and line frequency conditions, the perimeter does not matter. just the cross-section. So if the two conductors being investigated have the same cross-sectional area (same circular mils or square inches), then they have the same ampacity. Their observed surface temperatures might be slightly different, but not enough to require an infinite tuning of the geometry.

For the record: most larger electric machines (motors, generators, condensers, transformers, etc.) use rectangular conductors, often in multi-turn construction where individual conductors are in close (i.e. "touching") proximity to one another.

Last thing: if you look at typical ampacity tables, you'll see that ampacity doubles when the cross-sectional area doubles. So the incremental difference will be (roughly) linear. This means something with 32 CM will carry 32/28 more current than something with 28 CM, all else being equal.

Converting energy to motion for more than half a century## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

".... It is not a bus bar it is a rectangular insulated wire......All else being equal how does the shape of a wire affect ampacity and is their math that gets me from one shape to another? "With the

same cross-sectional area, the main factors that affect the ampacity/temperature rise are:(a) it can be of different

shapeswhich determine thecooling surface area. Cooling surface area of a rectangular > square > round etc... This is not applicable for round or square.(b) cooling by

convectionand radiation is dependent on thedeposition. Convection by a rectangular bar in horizontal flat > rectangular bar in vertical .....etc. This is again not applicable for round or square.Che Kuan Yau (Singapore)

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

https://stormpowercomponents.com/technical-library/ampacity-and-specifications-tables/understanding-busbar-ampacity-charts/

Merson - Conductor Size

https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/busbar-ampacity.398/

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

All else being equal. All else being equal, how does the shape of a wire affect ampacity,andis their math that gets me from one shape to another?I will ask it another way.

Let’s say you have a standard 500KCMil wire that had a rating of 380A.

Now let's say you have the same 500KCMil area wire, but it was in the shape of a square, so it had more surface area.

All else being equal.

I would assume that the square one would be able to carry more Amps because it has 1.128x more surface area to dissipate heat.

Is that math to get me the ampacity of the square wire?

This is your life and its ending one moment at a time.

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

All things being equal, starting with the heat generated by the current.

Just shape. The ability to reject the internally generated heat.

The greater the perimeter, the more area per unit length to reject heat by radiation and convection. In some installations, conduction may also be a factor.

Shape: The more surface area per unit length, the higher ampacity.

--------------------

Ohm's lawNot just a good idea;

It's the LAW!## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

--------------------

Ohm's lawNot just a good idea;

It's the LAW!## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

We would wind coils using square or rect wire.

The result was a much higher density of conductor.

And this changed the heat calculations.

In some cases it helps dissipate heat better with no dead air space between windings.

But in other cases the increased density simply resulted in more heat than the system could handle.

You have to evaluate case by case.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

see https://doc.comsol.com/5.5/doc/com.comsol.help.hea...

TTFN (ta ta for now)

I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

"#1......All else being equal, how does the shape of a wire affect ampacity, and is their math that gets me from one shape to another?.....Now let's say you have the same 500KCMil area wire, but it was in the shape of a square, so it had more surface area....All else being equal, I would assume that the square one would be able to carry more Amps because it has 1.128x more surface area to dissipate heat...."Yes.that the square one would be able to carry more Amps..... This is applicable for a.c. and d.c.; based on thecooling surface." #2. Is that math to get me the ampacity of the square wire?.. "Referring to my earlier post,

the approximate dc current rating for flat and round bars are given in detail.Attention: (a) for ac, the

skin effect, due to frequency, size, shape and thickness etc... shall be taken into consideration. Where R_{f}/R_{0}is always > 1.0. But R_{60HZ}/ R_{ 50Hz}is close to 1.(b) the

skin effectis independent of the magnitude of the current flow. There are other factors etc....Che Kuan Yau (Singapore)

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

1. For most cases the bar is mounted in free air, the natural cooling by Convection > radiation > conduction. For

convection, the heat dissipation from the vertical surface(Wis_{v})about 1.29 time more efficient/effective thanthe heat dissipation by the horizontal surface(W_{h}).2. Take a case say :

(a) [5H x 2W] i.e. vertical mount, the cooling surface by convection is W

_{v}=2x5=10, + W_{h}=2 ; ignoring the less effective convection by the bottom horizontal surface.(b) [5W x 2H] i.e. horizontal mount, the cooling surface by convection is W

_{v}=2x2=4, + W_{h}=5 ; ignoring the less effective convection by the bottom horizontal surface.From above (a) and (b), it is clear that vertically mount is preferred. Note: (W

_{v}) is about 1.29 time more efficient/effective than W_{h}.Che Kuan Yau (Singapore)

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

This is your life and its ending one moment at a time.

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

I would like to submit the

emissivityfactor which had not been touched on, for your consideration.1. Radiation

(Wis considered to travel in straight lines from all surfaces. It is proportional to the temperature difference to the fourth power._{r})It is proportional to the relative emissivity(e)between the body and the surrounding.2. Typical absolute emissivity of copper busbar: bright metal e=0.1, heavily oxidized e=0.7, dull non-metallic paint e=0.9 ....

3.For a single busbar with emissivity from e=0.1 to e=0.9 is reported to have an increase of

>20%in current rating.4. Dull non-metallic paint which are inexpensive in cost, can be manually brush/spray on at site. The thickness is immaterial. Note: dull powder coating and heat shrink on tubing are

NOTcost effective and difficult to implement at side or on an existing installation.Che Kuan Yau (Singapore)

## RE: Wire Amps, for give size.

https://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/bus...

https://www.busbar.com/resources/copper-ampacity/

https://wiraelectrical.com/busbar-size-calculation...