Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package 14

EngStuff · Jan 22, 2023

The company I work at we designed a steel building, and we are the EOR. We got the shop drawings for the steel building, but no calculation package. In our general notes we have the language of the details being standard details, and they need to have an engineer to design the connections. We also state to send over stamped calcs for us to do a quick verification. Contractors and clients want to move the project forward without worrying about us checking the calcs/connections. Just make sure the steel beams/columns and E sheets are representative of the structural drawings.
One of the engineers here is saying we perhaps can add a big Note stating that we did not check the calculations nor the connections they provided, and we only checked the configuration of the steel members and exact sizes and are not responsible for connections and they must provide calculation package for record.

In addition, we would stamp it as “approved as noted.”

When it comes to liability, how liable are we if the connections are not sufficient and a failure occurs since we are the EOR? Is there any other recommended language or additional note to add?

271828 · Jan 22, 2023

I don't know how the liability would work out on that.

I can tell you from the other end, several of my connection design projects have come about after the drawings were submitted for approval. The EOR said "hey, you need calcs too" and the fabricator called me.

In other words, I get the impression EORs aren't shy about sending it back C&R for this.

dik · Jan 22, 2023

PEMB manufacturers are reluctant to provide design calculations... normally reserved for reactions only. You may be attracting added liability by having the calculations.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

EngStuff · Jan 22, 2023

271828 said:
In other words, I get the impression EORs aren't shy about sending it back C&R for this.

We usually wait till fabricators send the calc package to us or require them to resubmit them with the revised markups. But in this case, the project is on an extremely tight deadline, that they want us to stamp it "reviewed as noted" and are okay with us adding whatever language to the shops to release liability from us. However, some of us think we cannot relinquish liability since we are the EOR. Other half think we clarify it and note it somehow and liability is relinquished from us.

dik said:
PEMB manufacturers are reluctant to provide design calculations

It's not a PEMB, just typical steel building that we designed.

dik · Jan 22, 2023

Sorry... just regular shop drawings from a metal fabricator...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

skeletron · Jan 22, 2023

This sounds like a bit of a mess. Questions and thoughts below:

Q1: Did the fabricator's engineer stamp the shop drawings or provide a letter saying they have designed the connections?
Q2: Is the framing regular and standard? That is: is this mainly simple shear connections and gusset plates?
Q3: Did your drawings illustrate the connection details and leave the specifics (weld size, bolt size, gusset size) to the fabricator?

T1: If you put the note on your drawings, somebody doesn't follow the note, and then you're considering ignoring your own note requirements and using another Big Note stating that you ignored the first note and tight schedule dictates...I think that's a bit of bad look on the EOR.
T2: Fabricator and EOR playing a game of chicken to see if stamped calculations are actually required. This may set a precedent in the future that would be hard to reverse.
T3: I would play one of two hands: (A) Deadline can suck it. Follow the requirements on the drawings to proceed. (B) Review the shop drawings and general connection styles. Are they what you would expect? Can you find at least one thing incorrect or curiously designed (ie. an under/oversized weld). Try to find a reason for having the calculations. I realize (B) is not in the scope of the EOR, but ultimately it's your building.

People get caught playing this dumb game of "who liable" with delegated design elements and it's frustrating, annoying, and irresponsible. Everyone's liable. You're an engineer. Building fall down, everyone will get their chance to be on the hook.

271828 · Jan 22, 2023

I think the "real" question is whether you think the calculations need to be sealed and approved for the sake of safety.

I wonder if you could let them get going, with calcs and drawings to follow, knowing that you will check them. If you find problems, they'll have to revise the drawings or refabricate some parts. Make sure the GC understands the arrangement because they would be getting the change order bills. The risk of this nonstandard arrangement would be on the fabricator and GC. It should be, considering they're the ones who missed the note. These notes are usually pretty obvious. Like someone else typed, they might be playing chicken.

The bottom line is the connections must be OK. What are you supposed to do if you find something that's very wrong? Just say "we said 'approved as noted' so I guess the occupants will just get a less safe building"? Of course not.

SWComposites · Jan 22, 2023

Ok, I’m not a civil engineer, but this makes no sense to me.
EOR designs a building. Then expects someone else to design the steel connections?? Huh? Aren’t the connections one of the more important design items? Why would the EOR building designer not do the connection design?

It would be like me designing an airplane, but expecting some supplier to design the wing to fuselage joint.

271828 · Jan 22, 2023

SWComposites said:
Ok, I’m not a civil engineer, but this makes no sense to me.
EOR designs a building. Then expects someone else to design the steel connections?? Huh? Aren’t the connections one of the more important design items? Why would the EOR building designer not do the connection design?

It would be like me designing an airplane, but expecting some supplier to design the wing to fuselage joint.

Delegating the design of steel connections is typical east of the Rockies. It has been done that way forever.

Here's one that's even more surprising: In some buildings, the connections are designed by a detailer instead of an engineer. They pull the strengths from established tables. This isn't just on easy buildings either. I've worked on several industrial jobs with pretty nasty connections that were drawn by the detailer. Then the EOR said to submit calcs and they hired me to (hopefully) show that their connections work. In some cases, a lot of revisions were required.

When you design an airplane is there no part of it that is "performance specified" or delegated?

SWComposites · Jan 22, 2023

For aircraft structure, there can be design suppliers (they do the design and analysis, as well as fabrication) but everything gets reviewed and approved by the OEM, then submitted to the FAA for certification. Some systems components get certified directly by the component designer, but the OEM is still responsible for the integration of those systems into the aircraft. We wouldn’t conceive of letting someone design structural joints with review of the design and analysis, supported by sufficient test data.

driftLimiter · Jan 23, 2023

Listen your client and his contractor may be pushing you to complete this FAST so they can keep going on schedule. But if ANYTHING even remotely related to the building goes to a lawsuit, the very same client will get Lawyers who can easily point to this and say... Why didn't you review the structural calculations in accordance with the requirements of IBC? The very same contractor will say that they have no liability for the engineering and that they followed your guidance the entire time.

The very real possibility is that you have been given a set of fabrications with no calcs behind them at all.

EngStuff said:
When it comes to liability, how liable are we if the connections are not sufficient and a failure occurs since we are the EOR? Is there any other recommended language or additional note to add?

100%. (I'm not a lawyer, but seems like if you assume 100% responsibility then you cover yourself). Pretty sure that no matter how hard you might try to put notes, the EOR has professional liability exposure for the work.

If you go ahead and proceed without seeing the calcs, you might not ever see them. If something goes wrong, you guys will be the only PE's with skin in the game, there wont be a stamped drawing that shows the connections to look at so only your drawing will be available....

*Edit. And notes attempting to relieve your professional liability will be plastered all over the drawings, which is good evidence that you knew something about this process was fishy and kept going anyway!

RPGs · Jan 23, 2023

271828 said:
I've worked on several industrial jobs with pretty nasty connections that were drawn by the detailer. Then the EOR said to submit calcs and they hired me to (hopefully) show that their connections work. In some cases, a lot of revisions were required.

I am in this boat way too often and it is not fun.

EngStuff, I recommend demanding the calcs. I don't think it is prudent to do otherwise. Some detailers that these steel fabricators hire are just glorified BIM'ers and don't even know what the AISC manual looks like.

EZBuilding · Jan 23, 2023

EngStuff, was the shop drawing signed and sealed? Is there information for an engineering company on the shop drawing title block?

If not, I expect the most likely explanation is that the fabricator did not hire an engineer at all. That being the case, you have a traditional shop drawing and not a deferred submittal.

tolchijb · Jan 23, 2023

I agree with most on here that you have everything to lose and nothing to gain... Maybe I should restate that, your client has everything to gain and nothing to lose. I would insist on the sealed calculations or check every connection yourself. If they will not pay you to check them then insist on the calcs. If your client decides to proceed without the calculations it is their risk and should be done explicitly against your wishes.

ScratchyFilm · Jan 23, 2023

If your client decides to proceed without the calculations it is their risk and should be done explicitly against your wishes.

What obligation does EOR have to NOT allow the building to move forward? Seems like there is still an issue if EOR knows due diligence hasn't been done and doesn't stop it.

driftLimiter · Jan 23, 2023

EOR can petition the B. Official to put a stop on a project. Its not pretty but it is possible.

Duty is to public first then client. EOR must promptly advise client of potential repercussions of not following EOR's advice.

You have the shop drawings, if you dont get calcs its on you to check them and provide comments back not to just accept them as is.

You have all the info you need to determine if the building is going to be safe or not, if it comes out unsafe well... pretty easy to know where to point the finger imho.

Aesur · Jan 23, 2023

You could put a note along the lines of, sealed drawings and calculations are required to be submitted for the connections; if contractor elects to proceed without said calculations contractor accepts all liability and connections may be required to be fixed at contractors expense. The EOR accepts no liability and recommends sealed drawings and calculations prior to construction per the construction documents.

Try to word it in a way that puts the liability and decision completely on the contractor; however as others have said, if something goes wrong, everyone will get sued and you will most likely have an insurance increase due to their time spent dealing with this.

To date, I have rejected shop drawings if they didn't have calculations when required.

tolchijb · Jan 23, 2023

It is not our place to direct or stop construction. That can lead to increase liability based on the way our insurance works. Our work product is our sealed drawings and therefore that is our only means of recourse. In the past I have contacted the AHJ and pulled my stamp from the project in writing. It creates quite a mess for all involved in the project, and no one comes out looking great so it is last resort. At the end of the day, the owner has an LLC that will not exist after substantial completion but your name and stamp will be on the drawings on file with the AHJ long beyond the statute of repose in your state. Your responsibility is to the structure of the building, not the owner, contractor, AHJ, or anyone else who barks orders at you. Your seal is your livelihood so, at the very least, any risk should be balanced by a commensurate reward. In this case, it does not sound like you have anything to gain for this added risk.

phamENG · Jan 23, 2023

If you required those calcs, stick to that spec. If you didn't design them, then somebody needs to.

DO NOT say "if so and so proceeds without approved shop drawings"...I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds a lot like you saying there's a path there that would be okay. There isn't. I know that. You know that. Everyone on this forum knows that. But the contractor's and owner's lawyers will twist it to sound like you said it's okay "if". They did the if, but oh by the way that liability is not transferable so...oops.

Don't let them bully you. If you have to lose a client, so be it. I wouldn't want to work with somebody who bullies me anyway. (Your boss may have other ideas, of course, so if you have a boss to run this by you might want to let them make the call.)

JAE · Jan 24, 2023

Jack Gillum, PE, designed a walkway.
He delegated the connection design to a fabricator.
Fabricator didn't finish the design but transferred the work to another fabricator.
Second fabricator assumed first fabricator did the connection design.
Shops were finished and submitted to Jack.
Jack didn't fully check them but returned them Approved as noted.
Walkway was built.
Walkway fell down.
Over 100 people died.

Judge in the case stated that "you can delegate design but you can't ever delegate responsibility as the EOR."

Anything goes wrong it ultimately falls on the Engineer of Record.

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Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package 14

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