Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
(OP)
The company I work at we designed a steel building, and we are the EOR. We got the shop drawings for the steel building, but no calculation package. In our general notes we have the language of the details being standard details, and they need to have an engineer to design the connections. We also state to send over stamped calcs for us to do a quick verification. Contractors and clients want to move the project forward without worrying about us checking the calcs/connections. Just make sure the steel beams/columns and E sheets are representative of the structural drawings.
One of the engineers here is saying we perhaps can add a big Note stating that we did not check the calculations nor the connections they provided, and we only checked the configuration of the steel members and exact sizes and are not responsible for connections and they must provide calculation package for record.
In addition, we would stamp it as “approved as noted.”
When it comes to liability, how liable are we if the connections are not sufficient and a failure occurs since we are the EOR? Is there any other recommended language or additional note to add?
One of the engineers here is saying we perhaps can add a big Note stating that we did not check the calculations nor the connections they provided, and we only checked the configuration of the steel members and exact sizes and are not responsible for connections and they must provide calculation package for record.
In addition, we would stamp it as “approved as noted.”
When it comes to liability, how liable are we if the connections are not sufficient and a failure occurs since we are the EOR? Is there any other recommended language or additional note to add?
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
I can tell you from the other end, several of my connection design projects have come about after the drawings were submitted for approval. The EOR said "hey, you need calcs too" and the fabricator called me.
In other words, I get the impression EORs aren't shy about sending it back C&R for this.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
We usually wait till fabricators send the calc package to us or require them to resubmit them with the revised markups. But in this case, the project is on an extremely tight deadline, that they want us to stamp it "reviewed as noted" and are okay with us adding whatever language to the shops to release liability from us. However, some of us think we cannot relinquish liability since we are the EOR. Other half think we clarify it and note it somehow and liability is relinquished from us.
It's not a PEMB, just typical steel building that we designed.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
Q1: Did the fabricator's engineer stamp the shop drawings or provide a letter saying they have designed the connections?
Q2: Is the framing regular and standard? That is: is this mainly simple shear connections and gusset plates?
Q3: Did your drawings illustrate the connection details and leave the specifics (weld size, bolt size, gusset size) to the fabricator?
T1: If you put the note on your drawings, somebody doesn't follow the note, and then you're considering ignoring your own note requirements and using another Big Note stating that you ignored the first note and tight schedule dictates...I think that's a bit of bad look on the EOR.
T2: Fabricator and EOR playing a game of chicken to see if stamped calculations are actually required. This may set a precedent in the future that would be hard to reverse.
T3: I would play one of two hands: (A) Deadline can suck it. Follow the requirements on the drawings to proceed. (B) Review the shop drawings and general connection styles. Are they what you would expect? Can you find at least one thing incorrect or curiously designed (ie. an under/oversized weld). Try to find a reason for having the calculations. I realize (B) is not in the scope of the EOR, but ultimately it's your building.
People get caught playing this dumb game of "who liable" with delegated design elements and it's frustrating, annoying, and irresponsible. Everyone's liable. You're an engineer. Building fall down, everyone will get their chance to be on the hook.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
I wonder if you could let them get going, with calcs and drawings to follow, knowing that you will check them. If you find problems, they'll have to revise the drawings or refabricate some parts. Make sure the GC understands the arrangement because they would be getting the change order bills. The risk of this nonstandard arrangement would be on the fabricator and GC. It should be, considering they're the ones who missed the note. These notes are usually pretty obvious. Like someone else typed, they might be playing chicken.
The bottom line is the connections must be OK. What are you supposed to do if you find something that's very wrong? Just say "we said 'approved as noted' so I guess the occupants will just get a less safe building"? Of course not.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
EOR designs a building. Then expects someone else to design the steel connections?? Huh? Aren’t the connections one of the more important design items? Why would the EOR building designer not do the connection design?
It would be like me designing an airplane, but expecting some supplier to design the wing to fuselage joint.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
Delegating the design of steel connections is typical east of the Rockies. It has been done that way forever.
Here's one that's even more surprising: In some buildings, the connections are designed by a detailer instead of an engineer. They pull the strengths from established tables. This isn't just on easy buildings either. I've worked on several industrial jobs with pretty nasty connections that were drawn by the detailer. Then the EOR said to submit calcs and they hired me to (hopefully) show that their connections work. In some cases, a lot of revisions were required.
When you design an airplane is there no part of it that is "performance specified" or delegated?
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
The very real possibility is that you have been given a set of fabrications with no calcs behind them at all.
100%. (I'm not a lawyer, but seems like if you assume 100% responsibility then you cover yourself). Pretty sure that no matter how hard you might try to put notes, the EOR has professional liability exposure for the work.
If you go ahead and proceed without seeing the calcs, you might not ever see them. If something goes wrong, you guys will be the only PE's with skin in the game, there wont be a stamped drawing that shows the connections to look at so only your drawing will be available....
*Edit. And notes attempting to relieve your professional liability will be plastered all over the drawings, which is good evidence that you knew something about this process was fishy and kept going anyway!
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
I am in this boat way too often and it is not fun.
EngStuff, I recommend demanding the calcs. I don't think it is prudent to do otherwise. Some detailers that these steel fabricators hire are just glorified BIM'ers and don't even know what the AISC manual looks like.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
If not, I expect the most likely explanation is that the fabricator did not hire an engineer at all. That being the case, you have a traditional shop drawing and not a deferred submittal.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
Duty is to public first then client. EOR must promptly advise client of potential repercussions of not following EOR's advice.
You have the shop drawings, if you dont get calcs its on you to check them and provide comments back not to just accept them as is.
You have all the info you need to determine if the building is going to be safe or not, if it comes out unsafe well... pretty easy to know where to point the finger imho.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
Try to word it in a way that puts the liability and decision completely on the contractor; however as others have said, if something goes wrong, everyone will get sued and you will most likely have an insurance increase due to their time spent dealing with this.
To date, I have rejected shop drawings if they didn't have calculations when required.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
DO NOT say "if so and so proceeds without approved shop drawings"...I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds a lot like you saying there's a path there that would be okay. There isn't. I know that. You know that. Everyone on this forum knows that. But the contractor's and owner's lawyers will twist it to sound like you said it's okay "if". They did the if, but oh by the way that liability is not transferable so...oops.
Don't let them bully you. If you have to lose a client, so be it. I wouldn't want to work with somebody who bullies me anyway. (Your boss may have other ideas, of course, so if you have a boss to run this by you might want to let them make the call.)
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
He delegated the connection design to a fabricator.
Fabricator didn't finish the design but transferred the work to another fabricator.
Second fabricator assumed first fabricator did the connection design.
Shops were finished and submitted to Jack.
Jack didn't fully check them but returned them Approved as noted.
Walkway was built.
Walkway fell down.
Over 100 people died.
Judge in the case stated that "you can delegate design but you can't ever delegate responsibility as the EOR."
Anything goes wrong it ultimately falls on the Engineer of Record.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
I'm interested in your perspective on why delegated design of connections is flawed.
As for the history, I can just say it's been that way during my career, but that's less than 30 years. My understanding is detailers used to "design" the connections before that, so the situation might've been worse. When was the phase when it was typical for EORs east of the Rockies to design the connections?
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
The EOR is responsible to verify that delegated designs meet the design intent of the construction drawings. We don't just call out delegated designs, then turn the blind eye to them and say 'Well its not my stamp'.
For general/municipal civil I'm not so sure how it works, but there should be a contract document that establishes the required design criteria stamped by the EOR. The eor is responsible to ensure that the deferred engineering work meets or exceeds those requirements and that the design is safe.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
I can only speak to the situation in Virginia before 1983, and we structural engineers designed our own connections, then checked the shop drawings to ensure they followed the design intent.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
Yes
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
As discussed above we have evidence that taking shortcuts with responsibility has consequences.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
That said, the provisions still induce several pages of commentary, which tells us that connection design is a bit of a sticky wicket, regardless of the option chosen.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
A Quick update, essentially what my boss told us to do was to check them, note whatever is obvious in addition to the calcs required. stamp it as reject and resubmit. To paraphrase what he said. Someone messed up and it's either the contractor or fabricator. They had all this time to supply required signed and sealed calculations by an Engineer. They also know they have to provide them majority of the time unless it's a complicated connection. They know they have to hire an engineer to design the calculations. We did our due diligence and provided what we are supposed to as EOR. If they missed the deadline, it's not our problem. They can make up for it another way and not have us be the scapegoat.
I noticed a question about delegated design. I remember one of the engineers here stated that most the times if we provide designed connections. We tend to get bothered to change them to either bolts and/or welds. So, it's easier to provide standard details and give them freewill to detail it how they please (within standard limits) and as long as they have an engineer provide a signed and sealed calculation package for us to review. There are some complex connections that we still provide a design for because of different loadings.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
This was after we asked a law firm to review our procedures, documents, etc., and they advised us to replace the word "approved" with the word "reviewed" and never to use the word "approved" in any document or correspondence.
The note on the shop drawing review stamp said that some, but not all items had been reviewed for "general conformity" with the design drawings and specifications, etc. ... I cannot remember what the exact wording was, on what then was a "rubber stamp". That was a different era; I imagine that today drawings are CAD and shop drarwing review "stamps" as well as mark-ups, are in CAD.
The lawyer who advisedd us, had graduated as an engineer, and then later graduated in, and practiced law. So he had a good understanding of engineering, and never asked us to do things that were not in accordance with good practice and ethics. He was a unique person. Unfortunately he passed away reltively young.
RE: Shop Drawings, No Calculation Package
In fact, and unfortunately for the assumption that "approved" is bad, AISC specifically requires EOR's (Owner's designated representative for design) to "approve" submittal documents.
See section 4.4 of the Code of Standard Practice where it states: "Approved approval documents shall be indiidually annotated by the owner's designated representative for design and construction as either approved or approved subject to corrections noted."