Amusement Park ride tragedy
Amusement Park ride tragedy
(OP)
https://youtu.be/ozhnXp9OWEk
A 14 year old was killed when he slipped out of the restraint harness on this free drop ride. He was a very large teen - more than 6 ft tall and about 340 lbs. From what I have seen in other stories, he exceeded the ride manufacturer's stated weight limit.
This looks like it may be a case of additive errors leading to a bad outcome:
1. It appears the over- shoulder restraint bar/harness did not have an interlock for ensuring proper latching before allowing the ride to function. Or if an interlock system exists, the interock did not work.
2. Ride operators did not check all rider's harnesses status prior to starting the ride.
3. The ride operator appears to have discounted the kid questioning why there was not any 'click'
4. The ride operator(s) either ignored the allowable weight limit for riders or were not trained to enforce the limit. Chances are there may not be a scale in the entry queue and the operators have to use a visual estimation of rider's weight.
5. Apparently the ride does not have seatbelts as a redundant safety measure. There appeared to be some questioning about a seatbelt.
6. The young man may have become anxious as the ride rose and he moved toward the front edge of the seat or pushed up on the restraint/harness in an attempt to ease his anxiety and thus changed his body angle and CG relationship, thus moving out of the cup of the seat. Anxious or not, by the very motion of the ride his body would react against the over- shoulder restraint bar/harness during the drop and if it has a rotation axis to ease entry and it was not locked it would be free to rotate and reorient the young man's body angle in relationship to the seat. Upon deceleration, the kid just slid out under the restraint.
The details are still unckear but this ride is a new construction so it will be interesting to see the failure report.
A 14 year old was killed when he slipped out of the restraint harness on this free drop ride. He was a very large teen - more than 6 ft tall and about 340 lbs. From what I have seen in other stories, he exceeded the ride manufacturer's stated weight limit.
This looks like it may be a case of additive errors leading to a bad outcome:
1. It appears the over- shoulder restraint bar/harness did not have an interlock for ensuring proper latching before allowing the ride to function. Or if an interlock system exists, the interock did not work.
2. Ride operators did not check all rider's harnesses status prior to starting the ride.
3. The ride operator appears to have discounted the kid questioning why there was not any 'click'
4. The ride operator(s) either ignored the allowable weight limit for riders or were not trained to enforce the limit. Chances are there may not be a scale in the entry queue and the operators have to use a visual estimation of rider's weight.
5. Apparently the ride does not have seatbelts as a redundant safety measure. There appeared to be some questioning about a seatbelt.
6. The young man may have become anxious as the ride rose and he moved toward the front edge of the seat or pushed up on the restraint/harness in an attempt to ease his anxiety and thus changed his body angle and CG relationship, thus moving out of the cup of the seat. Anxious or not, by the very motion of the ride his body would react against the over- shoulder restraint bar/harness during the drop and if it has a rotation axis to ease entry and it was not locked it would be free to rotate and reorient the young man's body angle in relationship to the seat. Upon deceleration, the kid just slid out under the restraint.
The details are still unckear but this ride is a new construction so it will be interesting to see the failure report.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
One's I've been on also had a belt type clip which went from the middle of the crotch to the hinged down restraint to prevent the restraint lifting if accidentally released and also give you back up to prevent submarining.
Looks like this seat had that extra belt, but on the side?
This is what it looks like empty.
I've also seen a blurry shot of the person on the ride and the restraint doesn't look locked in the down position to me. Basically his thighs were too big to allow the harness to go down to the same level as the others.
I've seen ride attendants bouncing up and down on them in the past to get them to click, nearly crushing the larger person in the seat so that they could get the green light.
I do feel for the kids being put in positions of doing this hundreds of times a day and having arguments with someone who is just too big for the seat, or marginally so. But the safety features on the ride shouldn't allow it to go unless locked down sufficiently. Maybe they need a couple of extra large seats on these rides to prevent this, but then you don't want a skinny person in them either....
If you watch this video of a previous ride - go to about 8:30 and you discover the seat TILTS FORWARD at the top! Looking a the person next to the person filming you can't see where the belt is, but it doesn't look the best fit of a "normal" sized person. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqyr0QuBjXQ
Wouldn't be surprised if it comes out that there have been a few near misses before.
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
You find that the regulation of rides is rather haphazard. This is a comparison of states https://ridesdatabase.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/...
FL is actually not that bad - but note that only 9 states require operators to be >18 and FL isn't one of them.
This organisation spells it out really well https://ridesdatabase.org/saferparks/regulations/
It was that discovery not mentioned on the news channels that the seats tip forward at the top is truly one of the swiss cheese holes as it puts the force much more on the restraint than literally the seat of your pants.
I've been on one or two of these drop fall rides, but nothing as tall as that one and the force after your 2 or more seconds of "free fall" is really significant. I could easily believe 2G.
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
But that said, the insurance company should require an inspection by a qualified person, similar to boiler inspectors.
In some rides, the restraint bar is common for several riders, and in that case maybe a common scale can be used, but in this case it sounds like a single person scale should be available.
When I was taking my daughter to the fair, I would notice empty bolt holes, and I would see seats taped off and marked as bad. This was most concerning as a parent.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
1. Accommodation of many body shapes and sizes
2. Restraint force sufficient for a very wide range of potential load cases but not so high to cause injury to the rider
3. The lock/ latch indicator must discern a proper latch condition even in a condition of possible 'spring back' of the restraint against the rider
4. The latch must not be prone to jamming to prevent ease of unlatching
5. Latch mechanism preferably would facilitate efficient ride throughput
6. Latch mechanism preferably would require minimal effort by the ride operator
7. Latch lock/ indicator system would /should be able to survive thousands of make/break cycles
The mechanical challenges are daunting, then throw in the human interaction and the true scope of the design and operation of these amusements is evident. Having a seatbelt definitely would be a major mitigation for much of the inherent risk.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
So it appears that the problem isn't with "over the shoulder systems". It looks more like failure in the latching and interlocks:
If the latch latches, then the shoulder restraint will keep a larger person in.
If the latch does not latch, then an interlock will not allow the ride to function. Once the failure to latch is fixed, the interlock allows the ride to function.
There's likely more to it, but that looks like the main concept.
spsalso
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
New records released by the FDACS show that the General Manager of Funtime Thrill Rides, Hannes Lackner, advocated for no seat belts on Orlando FreeFall.
“The seat and shoulder restraint system…has 2 independent locking devices, and the shoulder restraints are monitored. It is no need for an extra safety or seat belt because the seat and restrain system fulfill more than the requirements,” Lackner wrote in a letter attached to the ride’s user manual.
If Mr. Lackner's opinion was the last say on safety systems of the ride or if he strongly swayed the decision of the FMEA review team, the oversight of a rdundancy to the over-shoulder restraint is rather ominous.
It is still not clear to me if the rider was so large that the restraint was able to latch and indicate a latched condition but its structure/support was deflected such that the rider was able to slide from under the restraint and over/around the between-the-legs upriser or was the restraint in a partial latched condition and the indicator falsely showed a latched condition. After the rider slid out the restraint fully latched itself and thus its condition when the ride was checked after it was lowered and stopped? For the kid to have slid over the upriser while squeezed by the restraint must have been painful or injurious or the restraint wasn't restraining.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/20-seat-belt-cou...
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I read through most of it and there are supposedly numerous sensors all over the ride including two for each seat that will not let the ride run unless the harness is locked. The claim is that the harness was actually locked. As someone above said, did the harness lock itself AFTER the kid fell out? This ride has a ton of monitoring via PLCs including a separate dedicated "safety PLC." I wonder how much logging those PLCs do. The manuals don't seem to mention much about logging other than error logs... Would be nice to know "Seat 5 latch 1 locked at 3/27/22 15:03:05"
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
The unfortunate victim was above the weight limit for the ride and they also usually have other parameters like chest size and maybe thigh girth.
Kind of difficult to measure those in a theme park setting, but they are there.
I've seen dummy seats in the queue line to allow people to see if they fit - not sure if they do that there?
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
given young mans height and chest girth, the between the leg protrusion was left far above the seat, (and the thickness of hips had his CG over the edge of the seat)
the over the shoulder did restrain during negative G of initial fail, but during positive G deceleration, he submarined out of the seat/restraint.
given knowledge of the basic forces of fall/decel AND with fall protection harness I wouldn't get on that ride with out at least a 5 point harness
there is NO way a teenage operator could begin to grasp the consequenses of devetations of outside the limit riders
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I tend to think it was a false latched indication. I wonder if he had shoved the restraint open on the way up if the ride would have aborted?
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
If you look at the photo of the seats with no one in I posted, you can see in an empty situation the shoulder restraint is locked way behind the upstand such tat anyone in it would need to be about 6" thick.
The question is then did the largest setting on the restraint allow someone to submarine out of it and did it in fact lock them in tight enough to start with.
I'll be looking harder at these seats the next time I go on one.
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
There's an important sub-question that I haven't seen asked yet..
The victim here was well over the published passenger weight limit for the ride. If the restraint is locked on the largest setting but the passenger being restrained is at or under the weight limit, is submarining still possible?
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Page 115 of the operating manual seems to indicate that a seat that becomes unlocked will trigger a Warning--not an abort. I believe "Z-Stop" would effectively be an "abort" but returning the ride to the unloading position would be performed manually by the operators (in the manual, they detail this as "evacuation mode" in another section).
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
It will be surprising to find the Funtime Group engineers did not do sufficient boundary testing to uncover the safety flaw of the potential for an over-sided rider to submarine out of the restraint. The engineering on these type of rides is very complex and the teams that design them are highly skilled. It does appear as others have pointed out maybe the hazard induced by adding the 'tilt outward' feature was not caught or overlooked? With the ride chair sitting at the starting angle an over-sized rider's CG is probably inboard of the point of restraint created by the over-shoulder restraint and the chair cup and upriser. When the 'tilt outward' position is created by an active drive operation at the top of the lift just before the drop the over-sized rider's CG could be inline with or outside the point of restraint created by the shoulder restaint/seat system. Thus allowing a slide condition to be possible with greatly reduced normal force creating less friction to keep the rider in place. A 'normal' size rider's CG or 'under-sized' rider's CG would never move to be coincident or outside the point of retention. I am not familiar with the safety requirements in the amusement ride industry but in the medical world consideration for mitigating normally expected misuse/improper use of a system is common and often debated on how far must mitigation be conducted to protect those who may knowingly or sometimes unknowingly put themselves or others at risk.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Mostly due to fluid movement.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
acceleration.point of retention.RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Any that can sign off not having a seatbelt attachment which would prevent accidental submarining for what would be incredibly minor additional action should be worried.
It would also act as a go/no go if the belt didn't attach because the shoulder restraint wasn't down far enough. I've seen that in action on rides I've been on and it works.
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Yes, a simple additional belt mitigates submarining and reduces the risk dramatically.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
From the partial printout of the error codes, it may be a user/operator error. We have to wait and find out...
ditto...
It might be like having a seat belt included with a 'baby carseat', in addition to the restraint. It may be unnecessary... we have to find out. It may be with the accellerations involved, the seat belt may be dangerous. The restraint may be 'foolproof', realising fools can be ingenious.
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Safety analysis and design often takes the short shrift when it comes to design; it's often applied only after the main structural and functional design takes place.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
May mean class 5 restraint system Link
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
It's like Crunchy Froggie, it wouldn't be death defying, then, would it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-5h0L-SSqk
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
This can only be a result of something else that happened or was in question. You don't issue letters like that for no reason.
And it leaves more questions.
Cat 5 to what standard? As stated it is meaningless. You could say Cat 1000,
What "requirements"???
What TUV standards???
The letter says nothing.
IMHO.
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
As for TUV:
https://blog.1000bulbs.com/home/what-is-tuv-certif....
This seems apropos: A Retrospective Study of Amusement Ride Restraint and Containment Systems: Identifying Design Challenges for Statistically Rare Anthropometric Cases
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Yes, good point - this ride is stated to meet some type of requirements. So what is the standard/requirements? And possibly those requirements are deficient if they don't consider boundary conditions.I think the ride was constructed in Dec. 2021 Maybe during commissioning of the ride someone asked 'Hey, where the seatbelts? Did they forget to send them?'
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Safety requirements are functional, it's up to the designer to identify the boundary conditions and design accordingly, and limit usage accordingly. Otherwise, safety requirements couldn't not even be written; can you imagine trying to anticipate the boundary conditions for this particular ride before anyone even knew they wanted to design one?
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Did they feel empowered? To what extent? In particular, was that true for the particular ride operator at the time?
If they felt empowered at the time, did they feel the need to act on that empowerment? If they did not, why not?
spsalso
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
That's a valid point; people, in general, tend to want to avoid conflict; this might have been coupled with some level of intimidation factor of potentially conflicting with someone who is taller and heavier.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
"Redundant locking device function"
And
"Two restraints or one failsafe function"
Difficult to see those at the moment.
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
It could be that the occupant is much larger than the limiting size;
itthe latching/test devices could be inoperable, for some reason. We have to wait until more information comes out.Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I don't think so. If there is a settlement, the terms of settlement are mutually agreed upon. If both sides don't come to an agreement on those terms, it goes to trial.
The defendant cannot unilaterally set those terms. Neither can the plaintiff.
IF there is a "non-admission of fault", it will have been accepted by the plaintiffs. And it will only apply to this case.
spsalso
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I don't think any pax carrying standard would require that load to be taken into account.
By rights he wouldn't have been able to sit in a pax aircraft seat. Although this is a contentious subject if you can deny a pax that would over load the seat.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
But if you look at the certification of the seats its shall we say amusing what gets stuck on them.
The belts are also amusing think its 2000lbs and 16g they are designed for. But when questions came up I answered I suspect that more than that the person would be garrotted in two anyway with only a lap belt.
There has been talk about changing the certification specs for average pax weight and floor loadings. But there is extreme lobbying not to change anything and leave it as it is.
The main issue is that seats are becoming detached from the floor in runway overruns and other none fatal incidents and its causing injury's to the rows in front occupants.
Although we are getting into 737 grandfathering issues yet again on that one as well.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Fair enough, but I've not seen many civil suits where part of the settlement included an admission of guilt, because that's usually absurdly difficult to get to, and only governments can usually afford the litigation to get to that stage.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2022/04/05...
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I know several major companies that design theme park rides including a former employer. My experience matches Brian's with them, the teams working on these rides tend to be very impressive bc the customers tend to be high-profile and requirements very demanding.
JMO but I wouldn't be particularly concerned by the lack of a seatbelt, many rides with similar over the shoulder harnesses don't have them including some hanging coasters with similar tilt-seat arrangements to mimic flying. I can imagine quite a few ways of redundantly locking the harness at the pivot and would view that as preferable to relying on a human locking a seatbelt. I'm also not particularly surprised to hear kids were questioning the safety mechanisms while waiting for the ride to launch, its what folks do to freak out nervous friends/relatives...and yes, BTDT.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
You missed the lede ...
Some seats were adjusted for larger body types and the victim was directed to sit in one of those seats.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
The safety check before the ride starts is the weak point in this being a repetitive task undertaken by young ride operators.
There may be some checks on the harness lock, but if the secondary seat belt click is both an easy visual and practical check, but give you that crucial level of redundancy. I just can't really see why this is somehow seen as any sort of onerous additional action.
The length of these is fixed and hence requires the harness to be pulled down to some sort of minimum level leaving not enough space for someone to escape under the harness.
The fact in that photo that the seat has been removed may also be crucial as the lower between the legs bump is a critical part of the restraint.
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Only thing I could come up with is an interlock that blocks the restraint coming down if its over the weight limit.
Which then removes the human from the decision making.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Just as you test everyone for height.walking past the height gauge.
Interlock tests everyone.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
> seat bottom with leg constraints
> side rails
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
IR stuff - other pictures show the seat and side restraints were there on the night - I suspect they have removed these for testing, hence my question / point that the harness may have done it's job, but the seat is an integral part of the restraint with the side elements and the upstand between the legs.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Common in the 1960's but like the 'N -word' here now.
Politicians like to panic, they need activity. It is their substitute for achievement.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
That phrase in relation to Scotsmen was and still is used in the British army by all. Scottish soldiers do refer to themselves as such. Its more humour than anything else. We had one 3rd generation Indian descent lad from Glasgow who referred to himself as a cashew porridge wog. Which I must admit defeated most on the humour front. Scottish are also referred to as sweat which is short for sweaty sock cockney slang for jock. Welsh were called Taff and Irish Pad. I certainly never felt offended by it.
Sassenachs is used in relation to the English by the Scottish and is used in a more of an offensive manner, The other term which is commonly used in small communities is "white settler" which is always used in an an offensive manner. Its linked to city people coming in and buying property and trying to take over the local community. If I would say buy a property in some village on the west coast for retirement and then come in and then made some radical change, say put solar panels in on the roof and people didn't like it I would be referred to as that because I am not local and from Aberdeen.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
One term I've actually heard used; it was used the Netflix series "Outlander" but as a term of endearment for the main character by her Scottish lover
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
There is a whole other side of phrases in south west Scotland which revolve around religion and the Irish troubles and if you support Rangers or Celtic. Thankfully being an east coast child that played rugby I wasn't exposed to them or got into the habit of using them.
By the way Salad dodger is also a UK army term. And I had it yelled at me more than a few times :D
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I had a trawl around some videos from when they were building this and none of the seats looked any different to any other.
Does make you wonder if in order to accommodate the larger riders they adjusted the point at which the over the shoulder harness was considered to be locked? Or somehow extended the seat out a bit to give more room between the back and the upstand.
The fact they took the seat away though still seems suspicious to me.
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
https://www.local10.com/news/florida/2022/04/18/se...
Here is the report:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7oss0c7w8d2i3h1/AAAeOaA...
All part of this public dropbox published by Florida: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7oss0c7w8d2i3h1/AAAeOaA...
Smoking gun: Someone adjusted the position of the proximity sensor for two of the seats (including the one the victim was in) to allow for a larger opening--almost 7 inches vs 3. They also found evidence it was readjusted after the original installation, by way of bolt marks on the bracket. Now... Who did this?
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
How no one fell out before now is actually puzzling but may be they forced it down beyond the max opening.
Hence why a lot of rides have a locking belt as well to force the harness down to an agreed minimum space.
I think belts may become mandatory. Or maybe should is the right word. Otherwise this will happen again somewhere else.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Also up above there was some speculation about the forces involved. In the report they say testing with an accelerometer showed that the ride pulled 4G's...
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I note that the report did not examine this question.
spsalso
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Basically it looks like someone adjusted the max opening of the harness to allow people bigger than the seat was designed for. The whole seat should have been bigger. Now who and if the manufacturers were ever asked or advised or even told is not clear or if instead poor Joe the ride maintenance man will cop it for some vague verbal direction to "adjust a couple of the seats will you to let the big guys ride".
But the lack of secondary restraint / physical max opening strap is a major secondary failure. IMHO.
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I see these obvious failures that don't make this design class 5;
- The safety system using a single proximity switch to determine if each seat is safe.
- The restraint latches with the harness too far open combined with nothing to ensure the latch was locked on each seat harness.
- The harness to seat having a gap.
There might be something that indicates the latch is closed, but that might be an overall for all the ratchets on or off.
I suspect the class 5 design was claimed by the ride having 2 ratchets on the restraint, one on each side. What would be interesting to see is only latch one and see how far the restraint could open under load.
Possibly, this configuration was used on other drop towers and has historically proven to be safe without dropping anyone, but the seats tipping forward wa added to the design without making the restraint system and safety indicators even more robust.
The posts about poor engineering on the ride seem to be true. Surely, a mechanical restraint like that can be built so it wouldn't latch at all until closed enough. Then, multiple sensors could surely be used to indicate that both latches were actually latched. For a ratchet, which any design most likely employ, the last step before running it is dropping another locking restraint behind the ratchet so the ratchet pawl can't move at all.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Another possibly only perceived problem with a safety belt is that operators have to reach in between someone's legs to clip it for anyone who can't do it up themselves.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Its way outside certification for car seats never mind aircraft.
A 14 year old that mass shouldn't be technically be allowed to sit on a bus.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
So much for the carts in Walmart.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Same for wheelchairs in homes. But almost every business must accommodate them.
Sort of like the rest of society, be normal, or pay extra.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
But your in for a load of legal issues if you point out that they can't because they exceed the design limits. If you do that you are discriminating against them.
Oh and this side of the pond I think new build house do need 900mm doors for wheelchairs and a few other things but don't know them apart from the door width.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
But seriously, the point is where do you stop in terms of percentile at the top and bottom to not compromise safety for the middle 95%.
Maybe the designers hadn't really thought this through given the growing size of the population in most cultures, especially that of the USA.
So a few XL and XXL seats and some XXS ones as well...
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I think the smallest doors are 24 in (~609mm)for small closets, but no one need to actually enter them.
What would happen, is an XXS person, wanting to be next to there friend, will want to be in a XXL seat.
So for a ride operator, we would need to assume some percentage of seats can not be used on any one ride time. So the whole passenger capacity will be decreased.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
The FAA did a load of airport testing. Of course the salad dodgers refused to participate. And even then they have refused to release the data, and a lot of us suspect that's because the current standard pax weights are way way to low.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Go to table 5 for men in kg.
So to cover 75% of the population the weight increases from the 50% from 90kg to 104 kg (200lbs to 230 lbs)
95% is 140 / 310lbs
So this kind of explains the weight limit used by the ride designers, but seems a little low.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I suspect that's where all the energy is going now to find a culprit or company to sue.
The practical difficulty is how to police a weight limit. Height doesn't work as you can be 6'6" and built like a bean pole.
I quite like chest size myself, but again very difficult to measure on a fast moving ride queue.
Or perhaps a human version of the cage they use to stop you bringing on oversize cabin bags??
But if the weight limit was 275 or 285 lbs, that would seem to exclude 8-10% of the US population of 20-30 yr olds according to that report. That's quite a lot so then it makes sense to have say 5% of the seats specially made for up to 170kg / 385 lbs??
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
"Press this button when you're ready to be weighed. If the alarm goes off, you can't ride."
"Yes, you can try it again."
"Until I get irritated."
spsalso
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
The poor attendants just did what they were shown, I.e. put the big guy or gal in that seat.
The bard, there were 30 seats I think so if 1 or 2 were specifically for larger than "average" customers I think that would work fine.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
I assume he was managementHe was the director of marketting.) noted that there was a height restriction, but stated there was no weight limitiation.https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2022/03/29...
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
https://youtu.be/2ZeDeG2a9WE
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
https://www.loctiteproducts.com/en/products/specia...
From my notes:
-ALL FASTENERS, SUPPORTING MECHANICAL EQUIPMENT, WHERE THE NUTS ARE LOADED IN TENSION ARE TO BE SECURED USING LOCTITE 263 (RED) THREAD LOCKER OR THE THREADS SHALL BE PEENED TO PREVENT LOOSENING.
-EOR TO CONFIRM BOLTS FOR ‘SLIDING’ CONNECTIONS MAY CONFORM TO ASTM A307, GRADE B, AND SHALL BE FINGER TIGHT. TORQUE TO 2.3N-M (20IN-LBS). PROVIDE SLOTTED CONNECTIONS AS REQ’D.
-THROUGH BOLTS FOR HSS CONNECTIONS SHALL CONFORM TO ASTM F3125, GRADE A325, AND SHALL BE SECURE. TORQUE TO 28.8N-M (100FT-LBS) (DO NOT CRUSH HSS WALL).
-DIAMETER AND QUANTITY AS SHOWN. SECURE BY PEENING, OR LOCTITE 263 (RED) THREAD LOCKER.
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
-THROUGH BOLTS FOR HSS CONNECTIONS SHALL CONFORM TO ASTM [F3125, GRADE A325 | A307 GRADE B] AND SHALL BE SECURE. TORQUE TO 28.8N-M (100FT-LBS) (DO NOT CRUSH HSS WALL). SECURED USING LOCTITE 263 (RED) THREAD LOCKER OR THE THREADS SHALL BE PEENED TO PREVENT LOOSENING.
The notes are always in a state of transition... fixed as problems develop.
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
after watching above, the resolution of the safety switch versus the final position it was verifying. such a small change resulting in large differance in closure gap.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
We've seen the pictures of the single proximity switch that determines the restraint is lowered enough. Has anyone seen details on the latching system and the safeties on it?
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Can you elaborate?
Also... if the set screws were of a sufficient grade, the connection should be slip critical and loosening should not be an issue. If the fasteners were behind a screw on 'cover plate' they could still be 'messed with'.
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
EN 1088 (interlocking devices associated with guards) requires protection against tampering, e.g. use of tamper-resistant fasteners ... although I would have to say, I have never seen this applied in reality. Equipment destined for use by (relatively) unqualified personnel would be a prime application for that, though ...
https://www.schmersalusa.com/uploads/media/Tamperi...
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10912943/...
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
Tilting forward wasn't mentioned but critically removes a level of safety by changing the force path from one going through the seat to requiring the harness to actually hold the person in. Then no second restraint to prevent submarining and then the "manual" adjustment to accommodate larger riders but still activate the position sensor to say it was all good all add up.
It then took a rather exceptionally large individual to breach the boundaries, but "accident"?? No way.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Amusement Park ride tragedy
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm