×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
• Talk With Other Members
• Be Notified Of Responses
• Keyword Search
Favorite Forums
• Automated Signatures
• Best Of All, It's Free!

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

#### Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

# Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later34

## Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

(OP)

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

I suspect very little has really changed...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Some couldn't even manage to file the winterization report by the deadline. A sure sign that at least some risks likely remain. Keep your eye on those deadbeats.

Stock up now.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Everything is fine. Just don't look up.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

(OP)
More than 70,000 customers without power in Texas. Déjà vu all over again.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Worst thing is that their knuckles get cold from dragging in the snow.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

We talked to our son in Houston tonight and while they're OK at the moment, it was already 27˚ and they were expecting it to go down to 24˚ before morning and they were expecting the wind chill to go even lower.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

maybe they have turned the gas well heaters on this time

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Probably not a lot of them yet. 1 guy. A couple hundred wells.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Hopefully, this is a case of “People tend to overestimate what can be done in one year and to underestimate what can be done in five or ten years.”

Hopefully.

My glass has a v/c ratio of 0.5

Maybe the tyranny of Murphy is the penalty for hubris. - http://xkcd.com/319/

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

2
I think that we just got lucky. There was an incident in January of this year where a bunch of wells froze and it hadn't even gotten that cold. I don't know. Governor numb nuts said in a conference that the gas producers could inject menthonol I believe to prevent water from freezing. Maybe, they did that. If we could have some load shed without anyone dying, I almost would be for that to potentially get rid of our bought off governor. Our governor is so bad.

If anyone wants an idea of how corrupt Texas's state government is, read up on our attorney general Ken Paxton. The man basically just blocks any investigation into himself because he is the attorney general. Gov. Abbott nor any other republican stands up against this blatant corruption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Paxton

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Hydrates (gassy-ice) can begin to form at 40F.
Injecting methanol is costly and many fields do not have the capability.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

didn't know that about gassy-ice... thanks.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

There is such a simple way to enforce this, impose a surtax on non-winterized facilities.
They don't have to do it, they are not kept out of the market, they just make less money.
This isn't market distortion; it is trying to compensate for these actors bringing and inferior (unreliable) product to market and claiming that is equivalent to all others.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

This what the gas hydrates look like. Snow cones and slushies.

The gas molecules get caught up in water molecule cages.

Lots of onshore gathering systems are operating at around 100-200 psig, or less in an older field, typically with gas gravities near 0.65, so the danger zone is usually around about 40F. By the time the temp gets down to 32F, if the well heaters are not fired up, they're freezing solid.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

During fire fighting school we had to practice against propane fires (California emissions rules). It was interesting that after the exercise was done the ground was covered in burning ice cubes.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Thanks... I had no idea... everyone seems to have more fun than I do.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Good stuff 1503-44, a lovely nasty photo. Ambient temp compounds with the temperature drop from pressure drop at valves and any other restrictions. Restarting up of wells and less-often-used facilities in crisis-avoidance mode, water in old lines etc, is all prime time for these conditions to exist.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Strangely enough, a reason not to use excessively high pressure in gathering systems when you can get away with it.

The really interesting thing about gas hydrates is that there is 100yrs worth of natural gas locked up in the crystals in the cool deep water offshore North Carolina, as well as a number of equally large deposits in various locations around the world. There was some work done back 15yrs ago by Canada and Japan and the DOE in the effort required to produce it. A volume of seawater containing the deposits is isolated and pressure is reduced by pumping the crystal free water above out, thus causing the crystals to break down and liberate the gas, which is then captured and brought to the surface. 1 m3 of gas hydrate contains 160 m3 of gas (at atmospheric pressure), so it is very tempting to try to get our hands on the stuff. The work was discontinued, due to persistent low gas prices, but that price is rising again. Studies suggest hydrate production is economical when oil is above $54/bbl. Oil is above that level now, so research may start up again. It's interesting, but not without risk and controversy. A couple of CBC articles on the topic, 2008 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/methane-hydrates-e... 2013 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/canada-drops-out-o... Tax rebates on winterization expenses would fit seamlessly into the existing programs, if they are not doing that already. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later If you could put the argument that in a warming world it will come up as methane anyway, and burning it would be better than burning fossil fuels that would not come up anyway, you might be off to the races. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Yes. That's the controversial part. It's still fossil fuel, just not the worst one. If the EU can push nuclear power into the "green energy" box and if (or when) it comes to facing the possibility of freezing in the dark, anything is possible. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Hydrates are weird things though and whilst everyone like a nice thin line, the reality is this is actually a thick fuzzy line. You can operate well within the hydrate zone without having significant issues due to lack of free water, steady flow, high velocities etc, but disturb something and bang - you get an ice plug which gets bigger and harder the higher the pressure. So some people get a bit blase about it as "it's never happened to me", but changes in water content or pressure and of course temperature and away you go. Even surface lines in the desert used to get unstable sometimes about 3 in the morning and then magically improved as the sun came up. I think the operators never really understood why, but pretty clear to the process aware pipeline engineers. Remember - More details = better answers Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Djinns during the night, illegal aliens, or third party activity, depending on which desert. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later It appears that the Texas power grid has problems even when the state's not icing up: ERCOT urges Texans to cut back on power usage over weekend https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2022/05/13/er... John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later You mean worse than Newsom? Never mind :) The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Thank god Gov. Abbott has brought over GW of cryptomining load. It clearly has made everything better. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Sucks up grid power, provides 0 state tax revenue, 0 jobs and 0 benefits to locals. A win-win-win loser. A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Businesses don't pay state taxes nor provide jobs and benefits to locals? Be careful throwing stones in glass houses, NY has a bad history with disgraced governors and odds are somebody voted for them. The reality is that every major metro has infrastructure problems occasionally. Until they reach the point of turning off or otherwise losing power every summer for years I dont see an engineering disaster, just some basic issues needing resolved. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Nothing a coal power plant won't solve. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later It is hard to appreciate partisan ranting on an engineering site. But I can participate, too, I guess. I live in California, PG&E territory. PG&E has some excellent engineers, as I have worked across the table from them on a couple of projects. However, I would not for a minute look down my nose at any other states or the respective power producers, as the California and FERC regulators have been asleep at the wheel for 30+ years. And now my power gets turned off when the wind speed exceeds 3mph, no joke. At at 39 cents per kW, no less. Arizona, Texas, Colorado all look pretty good from here when the lights are out. Engineering tie-in? There isn't one, really, except the engineers are not as rational as they believe. If all your favorite people got put in to power, would the situation be substantially better? Different, but probably not better. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Sales tax is on the product sold (only on the power if sold, if not exempt from sales tax). You pay tax when buying BITCOINS? How many BITCOIN MINERS will be employed in Tx? 3, 4? No income tax in Tx, so that's pretty much as far as that goes. Nobody's going to be paying any Bitcoin income tax to Tx. If my people were in power, pun intended, it certainly would not be illegal to consider solar power for anything. A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Thanks for the info. If its really stranded gas, maybe it is OK in a way, but it falls back on BITCOIN still being a polluting investment. At least it isn't affecting grid load and its keeping two guys employed. A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Tugboat, That is a very small minority. All the large cryptomines are grid connected. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Uh ha. I kind of thought so. A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Anyone know what caused those six Tx gen plants to trip off line like a week ago? Tried snooping around and found basically nothing. Overload? Under volts? Under freq? Any of those is more a grid management issue and not a plant fault. I know this is the season to do sched maint, but they specifically said they tripped. (edit- Not referring to feb 2021 trips from freeze, but the may 2022 trips) ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later NRG's W.A. Parish Unit 8 plant (coal) had a fire involving the generator on 5/9/22... I'm guessing either hydrogen fire or oil fire. https://abc13.com/power-plant-fire-nrg-wa-parish-g... I talked to someone who talked to a W.A. Parish employee the next day. My understanding is that one or more of the other units at the same site temporarily went offline during that fire, but not for long. There may have been some other things going on somewhere else. ===================================== (2B)+(2B)' ? ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later No big deal or disaster, but it is Texas, so grounds for some to disparage. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later I just checked, the Parish event was 5/9/22, the 6 plants tripping was 5/13/22 (Friday the 13th, of course!) That's not a good week imo. I don't blame that on any party/politician, I just like to see reliable power in my neighborhood. Texas as we know has a more fragile power system than the rest of the US by virtue of very limited interconnections outside of ERCOT (only DC ties). ===================================== (2B)+(2B)' ? ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Note that not all of the Texas is isolated from the national grids. Parts of West Texas, generally the area in and around El Paso, are NOT part of ERCOT and are part of the 'Western interconnect'. Also, the Texas panhandle and some other parts of West Texas are included in the 'Eastern Interconnect': John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Rattlers are solar heated. A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Here we go again... Texas Faces Rolling Blackouts as ERCOT Warns Not to Use Major Appliances https://www.newsweek.com/texas-power-shortage-elec... In the excerpt below, they mention that there's "...no market solution available...". That's because most of Texas is isolated from the national grid (just look at the diagram in the post preceding this one) and so if they can't come-up with more capacity on their own, their customers are just out of luck. At least back in the early 2000's, when California was being hit with rolling blackouts, it wasn't because we didn't have the capacity, just that people like Enron were gaming the system, forcing temporary shutdowns of generating plants in an attempt to drive-up the prices on the spot markets which they then leveraged to their advantage. Texans have been asked to conserve power amid a heatwave on Monday as the state's power grid operator warned of potential rolling blackouts. The state faces a "potential reserve capacity shortage with no market solution available" on Monday, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) said in an operations message on its website Sunday night. John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Texas' power shortage seems to correlate with the opening of the Freeport LNG terminal. Edit: I'm seeing conflicting numbers on total generation capacity so I won't speculate on how much of the grid is tied up by the LNG terminal. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later I thought Freeport was mostly off line for repairs. As they are not shipping, eventually the storage capacity will fill up. Under those conditions even if on line, I would think the power price would make Freeport want to throttle back their compressors, and perhaps perform some scheduled maintenance. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later If you want to see this financial disaster unfold in real time, see this link. Day ahead pricing indicates tomorrow (July 12 2022) may be worse. ERCOT Real Time Dashboards https://www.ercot.com/services/comm/mkt_notices/no... #### CODE --> ERCOT-Public-Notices Jul 10, 2022 9:00:58 PM ERCOT issued a Watch for a projected reserve capacity shortage with no market solution available for Monday, July 11, 2022 HE 14:00 – 20:00, which causes a risk for an EEA event. Watch Active Jul 10, 2022 8:57:53 PM ERCOT has issued an appeal through the public news media for voluntary energy conservation for Monday, July 11, 2022 HE 14:00 through 20:00. Operational Information Active Jul 10, 2022 8:28:52 PM At 20:23, All Non-Spin has been recalled. Operational Information Active  ================================== https://www.ercot.com/services/comm/mkt_notices/op... #### CODE --> ERCOT-Operations-Messages Date & Time Notice Type Status Jul 11, 2022 12:51:13 PM At 12:49 approximately 663 MW of Non-Spin has been deployed, anticipated duration is through 23:59. Operational Information Active Jul 11, 2022 8:47:10 AM The Daily RSASM for Monday, July 11, 2022 will not be occurring due to zero participating QSEs. Operational Information Active Jul 11, 2022 12:21:56 AM No sudden loss of generation greater than 450 MW occurred on July 10, 2022. Operational Information Active Jul 10, 2022 9:00:58 PM ERCOT issued a Watch for a projected reserve capacity shortage with no market solution available for Monday, July 11, 2022 HE 14:00 – 20:00, which causes a risk for an EEA event. Watch Active Jul 10, 2022 8:57:53 PM ERCOT has issued an appeal through the public news media for voluntary energy conservation for Monday, July 11, 2022 HE 14:00 through 20:00. Operational Information Active  ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later "ERCOT Warns Not to Use Major Appliances" I hope that's not ERCON-speak for AIR CONDITIONING? A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later While it's very different in what it's presenting and what is being empathized, this is what we get from our California grid operator: https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/index.ht... John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Different target audiences. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. Why would he have done that? "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Texas messages ... are for Bitcoin miners? https://decrypt.co/104878/texas-bitcoin-miners-pow... Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later This time it is not the same people gaming the system. This time it leads back to Washington. Renewable requirements, and cutting back of fossil fuels, among other things. I'm sure that had a similar experience from solar developers, using force Majeure for there inability to meet solar panel cost/schedule requirements, because of sanctions. Bit Coin Miners-->"Do you want to play a game"? ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later ...and from the news. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/7/11/texas-... So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Except we are definitely not talking about Washington. TEXAS has favored fossil fuel development. Its the investors that favored Texas' wind. Abbott favors Bitcoin mines. Now the consumers have to pay for that one way or another, if not both. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later An example of the importance of the Electoral College. This is what you get when you let coastal California investment firms (always 65-75 degrees F) steer energy policy in a region they know nothing about: If you don't like the weather wait a couple of hours, Texas. As far as I know, the Bitcoin generation encouraged by Texas is on islanded systems using flare gas. https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/cryptocurrency-i... #### Quote: Texas Governor Greg Abbott, among others, views Bitcoin mining as a solution to other related issues, such as taking advantage of untapped energy, including natural gas (such as surplus gas or associated gas) that would otherwise be flared or vented ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Since the majority of Texas is NOT connected to either of the supposedly Washington-controlled grids, if they're now experiencing problems, they only have themselves to blame. If they had remained connected to the national grids, they would have at least had the opportunity to purchase additional power during emergencies. As for the investors putting all their resources into wind farms, isn't that just another example of capitalism doing what it does best. And as for Texas itself focusing on fossil fuels, again, that's just more capitalism since Texas traditionally depended on the fossil fuel industry for much of their state's tax revenue to say nothing of wages and investments in local economies. If these situations are now proving to have been less than ideal, how is it the fault of people living in another state? John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later To paraphrase, “it’s the business model, stupid” "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?" ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Wind farms have been heavily subsidized by the federal government over recent years. This steers investment firms in that direction. Not exactly capitalism. Since the federal subsidies come from outside of Texas they may not represent the best interests of Texas. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later #### Quote (“it’s the business model, stupid”) Is 'stupid' not in the wrong place? “it’s the stupid business model” So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates -Dik ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Tug, don't you suspect that a lot of these investors were people from Texas or that much of the capital invested in these wind farms, that this money also came from Texas businesses or Texas investors? If so, I would say that it was Texas and these Texas individuals who benefited from the federal subsidies. John R. Baker, P.E. (ret) Irvine, CA Siemens PLM: UG/NX Museum: The secret of life is not finding someone to live with It's finding someone you can't live without ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Negative. It appears the big players are Greencoat Capital of Ireland, NextEra Energy Partners of Florida, Exus Management Partners of Spain, and GE Energy Financial Services of Connecticut. Texas' fault here lies in the fact that they allowed renewable sources too much weight in terms of grid capacity. Were they lied to by the investment firms when they approved these projects over conventional? ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later T Bone Pickens, a former geologist, oil man and founder of Mesa Petroleum, was the first true proponent of wind farms in TX, way, way back in the 80's. All of the rest of us thought he was crazy when he started building turbines out in West TX where there was ... nothing but oil and tumbleweeds. Guess he saw something in those tumbleweeds that the rest of us didn't. No, BTC mining with stranded gas is not a big thing. Most of the BTC power comes from the grid. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Sure, go ahead and install wind turbines but a 3MW wind turbine doesn't equal 3MW of grid capacity. Maybe, if we don't count wind towards total generating capacity planners would have to expand conventional generation alongside cheap (subsidized) wind as the demand grows. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Oil, gas, mining, forestry is also subsidised by the depletion allowance. What's the difference in whatever you name it a a tax credit or an outright deduction. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Boone. T. Boone Pickens :) EDIT: 'Course 1503-44 probably knew the guy :) The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later No, I never met him, but ... no kidding, my brother and his son were friends for a time in the late 60's and early 70's. He got around more than me and also knew one of the ZZTop band (from our old high school) ... if you get my drift. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Uh, yeah, pretty sure I do :) The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Looks like nordstream 1 is closed for this winter at least. It's not going to be fun this side of the pond either. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later BCk to carbon burners. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Yep the working stockpiles of coal are rapidly building up next to the coal power stations. Some of them are obviously still getting worked up. But the reserves are going in. A young college said look they are ready now for winter and was quite shocked when I said that's a 5 day supply mate incase the railway gets blocked. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Meanwhile back at the ranch... BTC mines power down .. "Thankfully, the worst-case scenario did not come to pass on Monday (even though some Texans “reported sporadic brownouts throughout the state,” according to the Washington Post). State power demand, which had reached a record high last week most likely because of full-blast air conditioners, appeared to lower on Monday and reduce pressure on the grid. Power-sucking, industrial-scale Bitcoin miners who’d set up operations within the state over the past year have shut down their rigs until the heat wave passes, freeing up at least 1 percent of state grid capacity, according to the Texas Blockchain Association. Cities like San Antonio took energy-conservation measures at the municipal level. And ERCOT reported, with some relief, that Texans had indeed voluntary slowed down their power use, altogether saving up to 500 megawatts (an amount that, on its own, is sufficient to fully power 100,000 homes)." https://slate.com/technology/2022/07/texas-power-g... Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later Seems to me Texans really don't care. As long as it's not linked to Washington in there view. And if texans are still like they were in the 80s in Aberdeen by telling them something sensible is a guaranteed way to ensure it never happens. ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later I think that's gotten worse. A lot worse. If they had a better balance of solar in their renewable mix (they are way overproportioned in wind), they'd be perfectly set to turn on the air conditioners in the hot, sunny afternoon hours, coincidently when they need it the most, but that actually makes sense ... so, nope. You have to make them think it's their idea. Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed." ### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later I only get the info from usa solar groups but the constant regulation changes to ensure enphase micro inverters and solaredge remain the only real option to buy is really killing the domestic market. It's seems as soon as there is an alternative to them both then the regs get changed to require a new feature that can only be done with those two. I can't understand why they don't just require all inverters to be set at 0.9pf or require a PF production curve. The prices people are paying for relatively small domestic systems is incredible. And the amount of hoop jumping to get the paperwork done and approved is also collosal. Talking 30k$ and 4 months before it can be turned on. On a capacity of system that would cost me 8k and it's 2 weeks from paperwork submission to meter change and it gets turned on the day it's installed.

Fed up with it all and want to go off grid.... Right your house is now deemed unfit for habitation because your not connected to the grid.

I have been searching for the drivers for most of these regulations. But there has been remarkably few that I can find. Fatal or none fatal. In fact there will be more inspectors killed travelling to inspections than they save by a huge factor.

They tried to lobby to get the regs changed in Europe to require rapid shutdown, arc protection, fused DC strings etc. Thankfully they failed.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

I might add Tesla is just as bad. You basically have no control over what you have bought which is the same with solaredge. Any changes and you need to get someone to do it for you at great expense. If your installer goes bust you have to pay for a new one to survey your installation to then take control of it.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

For some that don't know, Boone. T. Boone Pickens wanted to build wind farms that connected to the Eastern grid. The panhandle part of Texas is on the Eastern grid. He could not build them as he wanted someone else to build the transmission lines, as he could not justify the cost. The few transmission lines that are there were of a capacity to serve the local load, and not much else.
For those that don't know, The wizard of OZ was written by a woman that had lived in Liberal Kansas, which is in the dust bowl area that includes the South West part of Kansas, and the panhandles of both Oklahoma, and Texas. Lots of wind, not much rain, and not many people.

Texas does have a few DC to DC ties, but not enough. And that part of the Eastern Grid doesn't have a lot of extra capacity. As I have heard.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Cranky108,

My glass has a v/c ratio of 0.5

Maybe the tyranny of Murphy is the penalty for hubris. - http://xkcd.com/319/

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

The other side of this "issue" is the reality that modern technology has made life without the grid comfortable, even for those without our own generating capability. A previous owner wired my current home with a transfer switch but I've never been tempted to buy a generator despite Detroit's famously frequent outages bc they dont particularly affect us. Our phones easily go days between 30 minute charges and even my laptop will last most/all of a work-from-home day so if power goes out there's no pressure to immediately seek a charge elsewhere. Our home comfortably stays >50F even at <20F outdoors and we cook with gas, so the only real impact is to refrigeration. Like most of the US we're also moderately urban here with multiple power providers within a few mins drive, so there's always something to go out and do, and public buildings with power within an easy distance if I need a charge. Not to argue that high reliability shouldn't always be a goal, but perfection is unrealistic and life's gotten better regardless.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

These problems could have been predicted from the start of deregulation mania a few decades back.

The technical reasons are just the proximate causes, which depending on the day and your beliefs, could be any number of things. They are merely quibbles.

This will sound like radical extremism to some of the Yanks on this thread, but electricity is too important a public good to let it be managed by private interests. We’ve seen similar debacles happen with privatized water in various places in the world.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

So I get my electricity from a public company, and the only complaints I have is the cost, and the mandated cost increases to pay for renewable sources. The number of outages have not been as bad as with that of government run providers.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

I'm not sure if I have ever seen a govt owned or controlled utility stateside and we have relatively cheap and reliable power, even out in rather extremely rural areas. Even in areas where govt has granted a monopoly the utility has been a separate entity IME regardless if for-profit or non.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

I stumbled over that phrase "government run providers", too.

In the US that's probably limited to TVA and BPA (they're involved in generation anyway, maybe not transmission and distribution).

But from the context, I think cranky was talking about Texas (correct?), which is of course deregulated. In spite of what the word "deregulation" conveys, it can be certainly argued that the process of deregulation as implemented did indeed move much of the important decision-making and control from the utilities onto the ERCOT and PUC . Ercot is not strictly speaking a government organization, but they're closely managed by PUC which is. So in a lot of respects, the Texas deregulated system is more government run than a typical regulated system.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

And if it wasn't for the rural electrification initiatives during the depression, which were government funded programs, many parts of the country would still be eating their evening meals by candle light.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Strangely enough, and right at the heart of Texas you will find Austin Energy Co. the City of Austin owned power generator and distributor.

https://coautilities.com/wps/wcm/connect/occ/coa/u...

Grand Coulee Dam, owned and operated by Breau of Reclamation

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

HydroQuebec has the cheapest rates in N America. Their stations are first class (I should know, I’ve visited a few).

There’s been a relentless drumbeat of ‘government bad, private interests good’ and demands for self-regulation (an oxymoron) for 4 decades. ‘Trickle-down economics’ really means consumers being pissed on.

Governments can be good or not, but they are there for reasons, and the most important reason is to protect citizens. State-controlled entities have been incessantly attacked as ‘monopolies’ when desire for monopoly is intrinsic to corporations.

Nobody here remember Enron, the ‘smartest guys in the room’ who gamed the system through agency capture and market manipulation, with catastrophic results?

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

#### Quote (‘Trickle-down economics’ really means consumers being pissed on.')

I've never heard it said better... kudos...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

The crap we can buy, remember that old NDT die pen cleaner which to my knowledge you needed a spacesuit on to use 20 years ago in the UK. On the shelf in the local shop. Same league as winding out a double digit Currie colbolt60 source in the workshop toilets doing overtime of a weekend in the 80's cause they were stinking.

You can also buy cyanide flares for vermin control.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Alistair,

Too many shades of Jasper Carrott there.

A.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

RE method of dealing with the adj getting there knickers in a twist with mole hills involved det cord.

The now fertiliser mole in my garden was seriously pissing me off.

None of this dicking around with capture traps. Just square round the hill. And lift the clod out.run hole exposed put the gun in pointing towards the hill mass. Gingerly arm it and put a pallet over the top. 3 hours later a big 9mm blank puts a pressure pulse through the whole network.

Blew about a meter out the hole and blew gas out the other hills.

Risk assessment has been seriously upgraded with this thing.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Really wish I could get my hands on some px and det cord though.

We have loads of big rocks and tree stumps that need sorted which would take half a day with bang.

But even we don't have that much freedom

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

#### Quote:

I routinely forgive Yanks their ignorance; what can I expect if their sources of information are the education system and US media?

The irony of this is that you decry the US media while puppeting their tired, false narratives and calling others ignorant. I don't fear mass (or any) shootings either bc realistically, the odds of a family member being caught in one stateside is effectively zero even here in Detroit. You might as well rant about US healthcare, college costs, millennials, or engine quality bc they're all equally non-issues today. As you said, "At least try to identify the actual problems." A good rule of thumb - if the mainstream media or Facebook claim something is an issue it generally isn't, and if they wont discuss an issue then its a big one.

Having lived on four continents and visited quite a few countries that suffered dictatorships, I'd focus your rants toward regaining basic human rights. In recent years yours has disarmed citizens en-masse, limited movement within the country, seized funds from non-violent protest groups, and outlawed "offensive" speech among other abuses. Granted, you did gain the right to buy beer from a non-govt store, but not sure I'd consider that a major victory worth waving the flag.

As to American freedoms, the first few differences between myself and friends overseas that come to mind - 1. I own all oil and mineral rights under my land unless I sell/lease/gift them. 2. Govt officialdom is not granted carte-blanche access to my land and can be arrested for trespassing. 3. My children's names dont have to come from a govt-approved list. 4. Access to public colleges and subsidies is protected for all, not limited to those govt deems likely to succeed. 5. Important - I dont have to justify my actions for anything but govt MUST justify theirs. If I want to (literally) own and shoot a functional artillery piece or buy dynamite I apply for a license with no stated purpose and govt MUST either grant it or justify the denial based on the facts and circumstances unique to me. But I digress from Texas power...

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

2
CWB1,

Don't feed the troll. It is pointless to get into an argument with someone whose basis is a national stereotype. If you remove poor performing schools, the U.S. educational system is on par with the rest of the world. States like Minnesota, Massachusetts, Wisconsin, and North Dakota all rate extremely high on international math test and would rank high as nations. If you want to talk about the media, it isn't different and is just as spun as found elsewhere.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

3
While this thread may appear toxic I think it's working. The apparent de-evolution of the thread is because this problem is not an engineering problem, it's a politics and perception problem.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

If the problems were dealt with in an engineer ING fashion it would be dealt with in a 30 min meeting

Currently it's 6 years and everyone world wide is screwed

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

#### Quote (it would be dealt with in a 30 min meeting)

I'm pretty sure that's not the case... we are dealing with 'The Ballad of East and West' problem...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

And I say it's a perception problem because so far nothing has happened. The grid has withstood the heat wave, there have been no blackouts.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

It's a bit like a patent is ok until the haptic vein cuts loose and they are dead 32 seconds on average later.

Engineering tech term f@cked comes to mind

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

I like the analogy, Alistair...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

#### Quote:

The grid has withstood the heat wave, there have been no blackouts.

Said, similarly, all the NASA managers before the two Shuttle disasters.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

#### Quote (TBE)

It's a politics and perception problem.

Bingo! Unfortunately your politics are toxic and your perception skewed. And that’s putting it diplomatically. But nevertheless it is explainable.

Welcome to Drumpfland, where every statement is the opposite of truth. Some of the accusations made here are truly bonkers. It feels strange to be one of the few people in the room unafraid to face unpleasant facts rather than deny them and slander others who disagree. Tied down by intellectual Lilliputians (didn’t read that one either did you?)

But here’s the really bad news that you need to come to grips with: the American Empire is in free fall. It looks like a suicide mission. But I take no satisfaction in that.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Politics don't need to be toxic. That one is on you. I believe bigot is the word you would use to describe yourself.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

What’s sad is that you undercut yourself with every attack and you can’t see it.

You live in Drumpfland yet I’m the one making politics toxic by observing that it is toxic??? Give your head a shake!

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Ironic, have you ever seen me mention Trump?

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Realistically all grids are facing the same issues.

Not just Texas. The politics for me is not individual of local flavour.

This has been brewing for 30 years. But as most places political cycles are less than 5 years they never do anything until things collapse.

And I might it's us that are expected to pay for it even though they have been extracting profits during the run down. And as soon as it's sorted they will again run down the capital and extract profits.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

#### Quote:

Welcome to Drumpfland, where every statement is the opposite of truth. Some of the accusations made here are truly bonkers. It feels strange to be one of the few people in the room unafraid to face unpleasant facts rather than deny them and slander others who disagree. Tied down by intellectual Lilliputians (didn’t read that one either did you?)

To quote the movie Billy Madison

#### Quote:

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Bah humbug, knocking about ideas how to get the grids of this world in a better condition than they have turned into is more fun.

Really like the smart grid idea with the grid being able to onload and off load to keep stability using opted in customers a really good idea. Making it worth there while to boot.

I have mentioned it before but there is an arc smelting pot in Germany sitting full of scrap metal on standby to be triggered by the grid. They get paid to use the electricity. Conversely there are other loads which are on standby to be offloaded for a period. And they are selectable.

That to me is a worthy engineering solution than rolling blackouts and eating thermal cycles.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Here is the problem, "Money". It was intended to be spent on things that strengthen the grid. But it looked too good, and was spent on pet projects, that did not help the grid.

Notice the cold weather rules don't say anything about fixing the gas freezing problems.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

#### Quote (Alistair Heaton)

I have mentioned it before but there is an arc smelting pot in Germany sitting full of scrap metal on standby to be triggered by the grid. They get paid to use the electricity. Conversely there are other loads which are on standby to be offloaded for a period. And they are selectable.

That to me is a worthy engineering solution than rolling blackouts and eating thermal cycle

And at least you get something useful and tangible out of it with that. Cryptominers are requesting similar deals where they will "switch off" to return that capacity to the grid, but in exchange want rock bottom rates or even to be paid to use the energy. To produce what? A number calculation that only adds value to the owner.

Heck, it doesn't even add jobs (once it's built, and even then not many with containerized setups they bring in on a truck and drop into a spot with hookups).

But, the right people are making money off of it now, so I suspect we won't see it regulated like other countries have already done. We'll just all pay higher energy rates (for infrastructure and energy) as linked earlier.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Besides number calculations they also produce heat, and lots of it, and noise.

On the other hand, they could be used for code breaking.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Thanks CWB1,
I now hate Adam Sandler a little less!
I will now search out this excellent cinematic rant.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Something Governor Abbott hasn't really said much about and that is that Texas has three times as much solar power generation capacity as it did just one year ago:

https://www.beaumontenterprise.com/opinions/editor...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

In fact, Texas has been doing quite well in getting renewables up and running and connected to the state's grid:

Texas Leads the Country in Renewables

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Speaking of renewables, this is the current status of the California power generation system:

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

It's a pretty mild day today. I see Orange county is at 78°. LA is 72°. It's 63° where I'm at right now.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

thanks, John... good info...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

It's currently 82˚ here in Irvine. It was 84˚ yesterday and they're predicting a high of 83˚ today, which looks like what it'll be, plus or minus a degree or two, for the next 10 days.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Nice to know that necessity, economics and engineering sense in TX is apparently winning out in determining the optimum mix of renewable and conventional power sources, despite TX leadership objectives. I guess that's about the best result you can hope for.

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

But they won't let the peasants have it.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

they have their ARs

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

#### Quote (1503-44)

At the risk of going off topic, TX leadership has some pretty dark objectives. End of comment.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

If temps rise as predicted tomorrow across Texas (they're saying that it'll be 102˚ where our son lives), it could test the state's power grid as demand is estimated to reach 80 gigawatts, which would be the highest level that it has ever been. The state's power authority, ERCOT, says that renewables, such as wind and solar, should provide sufficient reserve capacity that there shouldn't be a risk of any serious interruptions in service.

Note that here in California, the state's power authority, California ISO, is predicting that tomorrow's peak demand will be just short of 42 gigawatts. Our expected capacity is estimated to be just over 48 gigawatts.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Lets see, if your capacity is 48, and your load is 42, what are you doing with that 6 GW?

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Perhaps I should have said that it's the 'potential capacity', but since we still generate a fair amount of our power using natural gas, we can simply throttle-back the turbines when we need less than the 'potential'

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

It's still capacity; ISO has the ability to allow some of the generators to spin down/up to maintain operation by essentially throttling the fuel supplies. You just can't do that with the major renewables, hence the abundance of snake-oil in the energy storage arena

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Technically you can 'feather' a wind turbine so that it stops turning even if the wind is blowing. This feature is also used when the wind speed exceeds the design limitation for the generator to protect it. Also, when the wind speed is very low, even if the blades could turn, often they're feathered so as to stop the blades to save wear and tear on the generator and gearbox during periods when the power generated would be so low as to be uneconomical.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

The problem is when you throttle (if that is the right term) renewable generation, the owner want to be paid for not generating. We don't see that with traditional generation.
Besides that the traditional generation, the first units to be idled is the most expensive. Can we do that with wind and solar?

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

I suspect that it'll be a long time before the grid has insufficient levels of "traditional generation" capacity that they would be forced to "throttle" renewable sources to any significant degree. And when we do reach that point, I suspect that the use of batteries will have advanced to the point where there will be enough capacity available to handle the everyday need to 'level' the load, both in terms of providing additional power when needed as well as providing storage capacity for excess production so that things like renewables will not need to be "throttled".

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Grid stability in hot weather is as important as outright capacity.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

In urban areas stability is very important due to climate control needs. Those of us in suburbs and rural can tolerate outages here and there. California has proven that with the public safety power shutoffs.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

JohnBaker,

Feather is also used regularly to reduce ramp rates. The Texas grid almost collapsed in 2009 with plus and minus GW per an hour ramp rate.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

I'm not familiar with what 'ramp rates' are. Could you provide a link that you think best describes the significance of this? Thank you.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Ramp rate is how fast the resource can change output. IBRs (Inverter Based Resources) can ramp extremely rapidly. Conventional generation may not be able to ramp as quickly. California is just one corner of a huge electrical interconnection. When they have too much IBR output power flows north and conventional generation backs off. When IBR output ramps down at the end of the day the flow reverses and the conventional generation ramps up.

Two years ago there was a significant bottle neck in that north-south path and the conventional generation couldn’t flow south in sufficient quantity to make up for the rapid ramp down of solar at the end of the day.

If California would just limit their air conditioning load to match their PV output all would be a piece of cake.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

#### Quote (davidbeach)

If California would just limit their air conditioning load to match their PV output all would be a piece of cake.

Perhaps that's why Edison raise the power rates from 5:00PM to 8:00PM each day to encourage people to use less electricity during those hours. I've set my programmable thermostat to turn the temp UP a few degrees for the A/C covering those three hours.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Just for consideration, AC systems use bang-bang control schemes for the most part so raising your thermostat setting doesn't reduce the power draw. The idea of lowering thermostats to lower load relies heavily on the assumption the assumption that AC cycles will randomly offset themselves.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

And what pray-tell is a "bang-bang control scheme"? How are we NOT using less power when I raise the temperature setting on our thermostat?

As for "randomly offsetting themselves", the power company, at least in our situation, can shut-off our A/C anytime they want. Note that this A/C cycling program is totally voluntary and we've signed up for the 'Maximum Savings' option, which allows SCE (Southern California Edison) to shut-off our A/C for up to six hours a day during power emergencies (so far this year we've not noticed any interruptions in service). We are compensated with a credit on our monthly bill from June through September, which is currently running about $32/month (it's based on the maximum size of your A/C unit). We also get a once-a-year credit in the amount of$50 posted during our last billing cycle of the year, as an incentive to sign-up for the program. We've been part of the program since it's inception, which was at least 15 years ago.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

I was reading that 2024 that all inverters need to go smart ie the german ripple receivers will come in so the grid can change the inverter settings and heating/cooling targets.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Air conditionong systems mostly run on a thermostat. The compressor turns on when the temp exceeds setpoint and stops when hysteresis is exceeded. The power is the same regardless of the thermostat setting. Average power will be lower but instantaneous is unchanged.

Grid capacity is an instantaneous number, not an average number.

Allistair, what you mention would allow a level of synchronization to offset the time units spend online but I doubt anybody is going to go through the effort to make such an intelligent program. They'll just turn units off as capacity is reached.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

yep but if everyone increases it at the same time all the compressors will go off at the same time and there is a drop in demand for a period until they can get the spinners up and producing.

Most aircon units in europe new now are variable output electronic expansion valve which varies with the delta T of actual V set point. And the latest gen are all inverter drive and as such don't stop if the outside temp is different to internal. The rest of the time it just changes the feed temp supplied.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Very correct, the most AC units are either on or off, and I don't know of many that just have high and low levels.
The funny/strange thing about cycling devices is they tend to develop a group cycle that can be very hard to follow.
I have seen this with unbalanced pump jacks, and would expect that from cycling AC units.
I think people would complain if there power (visuably) flickered like that.

I was in a discussion with our planning group recently (I am sort of mandated to talk to them), we were dissing the distribution interconnect requirements, and ride through. And YES the requirements will be changing.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

The 60hz 110v ones might be but it hasn't been that way with 50hz 230v/400v for some time.

As it's such a local market and not international there is maybe no pressure to do it.

You are actually hammered with some stuff being 60 hz/110v. Nothing is developed for your currents and it's almost a by the way it sort of works but doesn't really.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Note that most residential A/C units, which are part of a centralized heating & cooling system in the US, are run on 230 volts. Now the circulating fan which moves the air throughout the house might be running on 110, but the compressor is almost always 230 volts.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Still can't handle 230v 50 hz. The electronics won't be fussy over Freq but the compressor motors all will be.

All the green stuff developed over the last 10 years is 16amp max 50hz 230. And the big stuff is 400v 3 phase 3 ph 16 amp 11 kw

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

High end units are a VFD driven so frequency is unimportant.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Most residential units are sealed compressors, located within the high pressure tank. And are on-off type.
Granted that window units are 110VAC, but whole house units are 230VAC.
The issue is, it is very difficult, and expensive to have a device that most AC contractors don't specify (whole house units). The will only sell you what they want to sell (from there inventory, or sales office).

Likely that is why heat pumps are so costly, and hard to find service.
It was the same issue with gas AC units in the past. Yes they made gas AC compressors.

Probably why gas dryers are not that common. But the people that have them are happy.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

think ours are more heating than cooling but VDF works well.

Still if everyone turns it down at the same time it will trigger everything off for the 20 mins required to fire up a quick reaction power source.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Speaking of heat pumps...

New York’s Public Housing May Be On The Verge Of A Climate Breakthrough

In the 1990s, the nation’s largest public housing authority helped popularize energy-efficient refrigerators. Now it’s ready to do the same for heat pumps.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nycha-heat-pump_n_6...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

I have just started looking for one for the barn.

I am tending towards inverter multisplit. They are claiming 30% energy reduction compared to the stop start AC driven compressors. Just have to find a 3 phase version.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

An inverter shouldn't care about the number of phases.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Well they are mostly single phase 30 amp supplies for the 4-5 fancoil units.

My mains supply is a 22kw 32 amp 3 phase so a 30amp load on one phase will give potential of the main fuse will blow when the other 3 phase stuff is running.

I am sure there will be one I haven't put to much effort in yet. I will go and see the Daikin dealer and they will more than likely have one just hidden away in the industrial section.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

It's interesting watching people swoon about heat pumps when every single one of them is full of ozone depleting halocarbons.

Allistair, if you have 3 phase you have single phase. Just grab two poles.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

Single phase is just 1 pole here. It's star supply 230v to neutral.

The main breaker will trip if a single phase goes over 32 amps.

The house heat pump is 3 phase and pulls 8 amps 400v the induction hob is also 3 phase pulls 6 amps.

It is possible to delta wire but it will be very none standard and will cause other issues.

I might get away with a single 16 amp unit. We shall see.

Don't want to go air water if I can help it. If I do that it's easy.

### RE: Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

On a side note the 400v 3 ph ground heat to water is incredible cop 4.5 on 35 Deg feed temp.

Setup up right they work great unfortunately installers don't do the thermo on them. And there is miss matches on input and output.

#### Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

#### Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

#### Resources

Low-Volume Rapid Injection Molding With 3D Printed Molds
Learn methods and guidelines for using stereolithography (SLA) 3D printed molds in the injection molding process to lower costs and lead time. Discover how this hybrid manufacturing process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches of thermoplastic parts. Download Now
Examine how the principles of DfAM upend many of the long-standing rules around manufacturability - allowing engineers and designers to place a partâ€™s function at the center of their design considerations. Download Now
Taking Control of Engineering Documents
This ebook covers tips for creating and managing workflows, security best practices and protection of intellectual property, Cloud vs. on-premise software solutions, CAD file management, compliance, and more. Download Now

Close Box

# Join Eng-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Eng-Tips Forums:

• Talk To Other Members
• Notification Of Responses To Questions
• Favorite Forums One Click Access
• Keyword Search Of All Posts, And More...

Register now while it's still free!