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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
That's a lot of capacity that's been lost. Must admit being Aberdonian we always associate Texas with hot and humid... Not snow storms.
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Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up. 67
- Thread starter Alistair_Heaton
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- #61
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
little reactors little problems I think was the expression they used to use to the ex Sub guys from the Royal Navy.
Hopefully they have butchered the sensor feed and restored the feedwater.
Hopefully they have butchered the sensor feed and restored the feedwater.
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TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
As a Californian, before you give Texas too much grief, we are the state that turns off our power due to good weather. Texas gets theirs interrupted by bad weather. There is a distinction to be made there. How often do you hear advertisements in Texas telling you to avoid using power between 4pm and 9pm? That's a regular occurrence here in CA.
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- #63
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
TX electrical grid is managed to minimize costs for the suppliers, with supply being held at no more than 101% of demand and little to no connection to the outside world. They have carefully done this with great success. Electric prices vary by the laws of supply and demand, in this instance they have skyrocketed. The regulators don't allow the utilities to charge for upgrades or maintenenace. This is not the first time TX has had a cold snap that caused extreme prices and shortages, and it won't be the last. Because of capitalism and poor regulation.
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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
Sitting in isolation yet again its been quiet interesting in reading about the setup for Texas and the lengths they have gone to to avoid Federal regulation.
Its given me a better understanding of some to the views on the domestic solar groups. They will go to great lengths to get disconnected from the grid.
Its given me a better understanding of some to the views on the domestic solar groups. They will go to great lengths to get disconnected from the grid.
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Natural gas is now the largest source of power generation in the US. Coal is still second with nuclear a not too distant third. All renewables combined still come in forth place.
Source: Link
The trend of late is causing base load power generation to be replaced mostly by natural gas peak generation sources. I see consequences are threefold:
1- While seemingly clean, burning natural gas is still a contributor to greenhouse gas emissions which was the primary concern with the coal plants they are replacing.
2- As we are now seeing in Texas, there are competing markets for natural gas which is needed both for power generation and home heating. Somebody has to lose when demand exceeds capacity
3- Natural gas is relatively cheap today. That makes it an attractive technology both for generators and consumers. Utility bills will definitely reflect sharp changes in the market at some point in the future when gas prices go up because supplies are pinched or whatever other reason may affect it's commodity price.
As base load generation decreases, it's not an easy or quick process to change from one source to another. Coal will be disappearing forever and the share for nuclear power is dwindling (at least for now). I don't see this to ever be resolved by the trend of moving to renewable sources.
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
Source: Link
The trend of late is causing base load power generation to be replaced mostly by natural gas peak generation sources. I see consequences are threefold:
1- While seemingly clean, burning natural gas is still a contributor to greenhouse gas emissions which was the primary concern with the coal plants they are replacing.
2- As we are now seeing in Texas, there are competing markets for natural gas which is needed both for power generation and home heating. Somebody has to lose when demand exceeds capacity
3- Natural gas is relatively cheap today. That makes it an attractive technology both for generators and consumers. Utility bills will definitely reflect sharp changes in the market at some point in the future when gas prices go up because supplies are pinched or whatever other reason may affect it's commodity price.
As base load generation decreases, it's not an easy or quick process to change from one source to another. Coal will be disappearing forever and the share for nuclear power is dwindling (at least for now). I don't see this to ever be resolved by the trend of moving to renewable sources.
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
I can't see it either renewables being the solution linked with storage.
That's quite impressive though 31 billion kWh from small scale producers. That's getting near 1%
That's quite impressive though 31 billion kWh from small scale producers. That's getting near 1%
LittleInch
Petroleum
One other thing which can mess with systems in cold weather is the use of gas a motive source for valves as well as instrument lines.
I once had a gas feed into a power station go down in cold biting winds because the 70 to 7 bar regulator to feed gas into the control valve actuator froze up as it had reached the gas dewpoint. Consequence was the valve lost its power to move and the system tripped and the power station tripped. Not normally an issue but then required some poor soul to regularly heat the instrument lines with hot water from a kettle all night...
Normally when you get gas systems and power systems from gas fired generation, the loss of electricity then causes all the domestic and other industrial gas supplies to stop so that you can re-start the gas generation. But ultimately if you don't have rolling black outs then demand overcomes supply.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
I once had a gas feed into a power station go down in cold biting winds because the 70 to 7 bar regulator to feed gas into the control valve actuator froze up as it had reached the gas dewpoint. Consequence was the valve lost its power to move and the system tripped and the power station tripped. Not normally an issue but then required some poor soul to regularly heat the instrument lines with hot water from a kettle all night...
Normally when you get gas systems and power systems from gas fired generation, the loss of electricity then causes all the domestic and other industrial gas supplies to stop so that you can re-start the gas generation. But ultimately if you don't have rolling black outs then demand overcomes supply.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
From the news...
"Bumbling CEO of Texas energy company ERCOT that's responsible for deadly blackouts has no idea when power will be restored to 4.4million people but claims his agency managed to AVOID a 'catastrophe' by switching it off"
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
"Bumbling CEO of Texas energy company ERCOT that's responsible for deadly blackouts has no idea when power will be restored to 4.4million people but claims his agency managed to AVOID a 'catastrophe' by switching it off"
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
Some of the large central stations in Texas have outdoor steam turbines and feedwater heaters and pumps, with related small bore piping. No building enclosure, and the only insulation is for protection of personnel and to retain heat for efficiency, and not explicitly for freeze protection. Retrofitting freeze protection for these plants will be a large endeavor.
Another peculiarity is that most plants in Texas are IPP independent power plants and not part of a regulated utility; they bid for power against the utilities, and there are penalties for not providing the power they bid for . If they are not designed for frigid temps and are aware the polar vortex has them in the crosshairs, they do not have to bid for power at that time and might skip penalties.Their incentive to proactively improve freeze protection for 1 week every 10 yrs is just not there.
I am not familiar with the issues related to gas well freeze protection, but I assume the new regulations will require the facilites that contributed to this will need to demonstrate they will be retrofit to provide freeze protection for 5 days at 20F ambient air temp. This is the type of design data that is used to warranty the performance of the freeze protection for external piping systems. Prior to this event, the original design data may have used the NOAA design ambient data for a 97% probable event.
The normal progression for such rare events is to proclaim outrage and assign a commission to legislate changes, but as time goes by interest wanes and nothing happens. There is an alternate narrative re: climate change , and it suggests that the upcoming solar maunder minimum will lead to 20 yrs of a cooling trend , so this event may occur with more frequency then once per century.
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
Another peculiarity is that most plants in Texas are IPP independent power plants and not part of a regulated utility; they bid for power against the utilities, and there are penalties for not providing the power they bid for . If they are not designed for frigid temps and are aware the polar vortex has them in the crosshairs, they do not have to bid for power at that time and might skip penalties.Their incentive to proactively improve freeze protection for 1 week every 10 yrs is just not there.
I am not familiar with the issues related to gas well freeze protection, but I assume the new regulations will require the facilites that contributed to this will need to demonstrate they will be retrofit to provide freeze protection for 5 days at 20F ambient air temp. This is the type of design data that is used to warranty the performance of the freeze protection for external piping systems. Prior to this event, the original design data may have used the NOAA design ambient data for a 97% probable event.
The normal progression for such rare events is to proclaim outrage and assign a commission to legislate changes, but as time goes by interest wanes and nothing happens. There is an alternate narrative re: climate change , and it suggests that the upcoming solar maunder minimum will lead to 20 yrs of a cooling trend , so this event may occur with more frequency then once per century.
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
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Years ago, utilities were told not to build gas generation plants, and were pushed to build coal power plants, on a national level. Now the same utilities are being pushed to not build coal power plants, and are being pushed to gas plants. So maybe there was a reason they were pushed to use coal, as we don't produce enough gas.
This sure seems to be a government problem, created by and for the government.
Yes FERC and NERC will be looking into this, but I doubt either will bring a mirror.
This sure seems to be a government problem, created by and for the government.
Yes FERC and NERC will be looking into this, but I doubt either will bring a mirror.
I think the original reason for minimizing nat gas plants in the 1960-1980 time frame was that they thought there was a limited UG supply and it was preferentially meant to be used for home heating. Even today, new england power plants must shut down in winter to ensure adequate gas supplies are available for home heating, due to the undersized gas supply system. The Enron related findings of the 1990's and 2000's plus the fracking revolution has vastly increased the estimates of recoverable gas reserves in the USA.
Most US coal plants store 3-6 months supply of coal , to address delivery issues, that include labor strikes ( truckers, miners) and also mississippi barge limitations.
After this Texas debacle, there will need to be developed and used an education campaign to prevent the CO poisoning events that occur when people heat with charcoal or use their cars within their garages for heat, to be played on TV and radio prior to such a storm. Schools or other public buildings should be provided with backup generators and heat sources to allow the public to find a warm place for 1 week, just as used during other natural disasters. I suppose there will be a surge in people buying generators, kerosene heaters and CO monitors , and large fuel oil tanks for their homes.
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
Most US coal plants store 3-6 months supply of coal , to address delivery issues, that include labor strikes ( truckers, miners) and also mississippi barge limitations.
After this Texas debacle, there will need to be developed and used an education campaign to prevent the CO poisoning events that occur when people heat with charcoal or use their cars within their garages for heat, to be played on TV and radio prior to such a storm. Schools or other public buildings should be provided with backup generators and heat sources to allow the public to find a warm place for 1 week, just as used during other natural disasters. I suppose there will be a surge in people buying generators, kerosene heaters and CO monitors , and large fuel oil tanks for their homes.
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
There is currently enough gas supplies when wells are online and not blocked with gas hydrate formations due to cold temperatures. Whether it can be transported to the burners in quantities required for abnormally high demands is another question.
Types of plants constructed are today defined by supplies available to the region, present and foreseeable costs of various plant types and their fuels, tax incentives and environmental regulations.
A bit outside my field, but as far as I know, nobody is ordering anyone to build any given type of plant, although ease of obtaining permits does have some effects.
Types of plants constructed are today defined by supplies available to the region, present and foreseeable costs of various plant types and their fuels, tax incentives and environmental regulations.
A bit outside my field, but as far as I know, nobody is ordering anyone to build any given type of plant, although ease of obtaining permits does have some effects.
Another issue that needs to be recognized and addressed is the current trend to replace natural gas heating systems with electric heat pumps, backed up with resistance heaters , will lead to a large surge in electricity demand as soon as the ambient air temp drops below 35 F , the bottom limit for an electric heat pump. In a location such as new england ( where the power plants must shut off to reserve gas for home heating) and texas, the combination of teh 2 events can lead to a duplicate of the current debacle.Both seattle and NYC are now pushing for such replacement with electric heat pumps.
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
And some cities have storage of propane in case of a natural gas shortage. Not for power plants, but for homes.
Likely has some value, but most homes that heat with natural gas, require electricity also to use it.
Many gas power plants did in fact remove the dual fuel capability because it improved there heat rates, and because "they never used it". Yes I have heard that before.
I just think part of this is because a lack of gray hairs as the old engineers retire and the youngers believe they know better. I heard the same thing about syncro-scopes in substations (we never use them).
In the wake of 911, many radio stations in NYC regretted their decision to not have a secondary transmitting site.
Sort of same thing here. Regret what happened, but can't justify fixing the problem.
Likely has some value, but most homes that heat with natural gas, require electricity also to use it.
Many gas power plants did in fact remove the dual fuel capability because it improved there heat rates, and because "they never used it". Yes I have heard that before.
I just think part of this is because a lack of gray hairs as the old engineers retire and the youngers believe they know better. I heard the same thing about syncro-scopes in substations (we never use them).
In the wake of 911, many radio stations in NYC regretted their decision to not have a secondary transmitting site.
Sort of same thing here. Regret what happened, but can't justify fixing the problem.
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Our local previously oil fired now gas only plant removed the upper burners to provide over fire air to reduce NOx emissions. They cut up the tank farm to make room for additional combined cycle plants. We can't blame all of this on a lack of gray hairs.
racookpe1978
Nuclear
A house with central-fired, forced convection gas heaters (the most common by far for HVAC systems) MUST have AC power to run the circulation fan to pass heated air out through the house. If no fan-induced motion, the gas heaters trip off on local overheating safeguards around the burners.
In our house, my forced draft fan is usually automatically cycled on by the relay and contacts for the burners. But it can also be powered from my inverter and 12V battery stack, from an outside AC power supply like a generator, or from the generator to the split-house emergency breaker panel.
In our house, my forced draft fan is usually automatically cycled on by the relay and contacts for the burners. But it can also be powered from my inverter and 12V battery stack, from an outside AC power supply like a generator, or from the generator to the split-house emergency breaker panel.
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SuperSalad
Chemical
If it weren't for the young know-betters, the retiree-consultancy industry would go bankrupt in a matter of hours!
Andrew H.
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