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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
That's a lot of capacity that's been lost. Must admit being Aberdonian we always associate Texas with hot and humid... Not snow storms.
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Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up. 67
- Thread starter Alistair_Heaton
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JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Yes, there's a bit of an outrage in Houston this morning when this image was seen on the local TV station showing, as a result of the so-called rolling blackouts, downtown Houston all lite-up as if there was no power grid problems yet the residential and small commercial businesses in the areas surrounding the city in near total darkness:
Skyscrapers lit up in downtown spark outrage amid power outages
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
Skyscrapers lit up in downtown spark outrage amid power outages
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
apparently snow and cold weather has been occurring in Texas for years. it is nothing new and not quite as rare as it is being made out to be. somebody forgot to account for that in the design of the turbines. I thought "resiliency" was the whole reason for these alternative energy sources...
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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
crankie it was -25 C last night at mine..... and below -10C since beginning of Jan.
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- #24
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
Freezing rain is pretty fatal to aircraft propellers with all the high powered de ice and anti ice gear running. Never mind wind turbines.
And it takes a hellva lot of deicing fluid to shift the ice afterwards. And and I can't see wind turbines getting de iced with Type one heated fluid.
And it takes a hellva lot of deicing fluid to shift the ice afterwards. And and I can't see wind turbines getting de iced with Type one heated fluid.
racookpe1978
Nuclear
Yeah. 100% redundancy is required: If (WHEN) the renewables fail "unexpectedly" the real producers are in the regulator-politician bulleyes to be screwed by too-fast-startups (little or too fast heatup rates that break turbines, compressor cases, exhaust cases, and exhaust transitions) or ups-and-downs that can't be predicted so standby costs go through the roof.
When renewables exceed 5% your grid begins to fail over a long-term basis. Below 5%, it can survive most flip-flops and cycles.
When renewables exceed 5% your grid begins to fail over a long-term basis. Below 5%, it can survive most flip-flops and cycles.
racookpe1978
Nuclear
JayMaechtlen said:
I'm working across the highway from that refinery at a different chemical plant doing a Cogenerator steam CT project upgrade. We were shutdown Sunday, lost Monday NS, Monday DS and still cannot get back to work today (Tuesday DS.) I-10, I210, I-12 were closed Monday morning for all traffic (ice sheets on the high bridges, on the overpasses and low river and swamp bridges) , but some traffic could get east-west by noon Monday. We are still locked out today. 11-14 degrees F right now.
And yet in Alberta, during the last 10 days of minus 25 weather, we seem to be having less than the usual amount of reported issues due to freezing etc. Just goes to show that if enough preventative $$ are thrown at a problem, thereisnt a problem. Methinks Texas has enough $$$ as well as engineering expertise, just lacking the political will.
At the beginning of WWII, my dad said (he was with the RCAF) that deicer fluid was nearly 100% ethyl alcohol... about half way through the war they decided to 'denature' it so it was toxic. I've designed several de-icing facilities for airports.
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
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- #29
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
H'mm I thought they used urea in WW2 or maybe that was just this side of the pond. Mainly from pig farms. Don't think they needed to bother denaturing it.
Likely many of you don't know about a like thread under electric power. But that should not matter, as there are also shortages of natural gas, which is also part of the electric power problem.
It is not just a power problem, but also a problem of gas wells freezing up. So don't be so quick to point fingers. Also the big highway crashes, because of ice on the highway, and lack of deicers being used.
No Texas was not ready for this, but it was not just the electric grid.
Most of the blame can be placed on cost, and the unwillingness to bear the cost for such a short time event.
Yes rolling outages always cause outrage, but calls to cut back usually go upon deaf ears.
Tip, now is the time to sell your unused generator.
It is not just a power problem, but also a problem of gas wells freezing up. So don't be so quick to point fingers. Also the big highway crashes, because of ice on the highway, and lack of deicers being used.
No Texas was not ready for this, but it was not just the electric grid.
Most of the blame can be placed on cost, and the unwillingness to bear the cost for such a short time event.
Yes rolling outages always cause outrage, but calls to cut back usually go upon deaf ears.
Tip, now is the time to sell your unused generator.
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- #31
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
crankie108 I do feel for those affected and had presumed that lots of other services would have been taken out as well.
I didn't realise though how isolated some states are from the rest of the infrastructure.
Its not going to get above freezing until Sat or Sunday and if the hardware has been cold soaked for a week its going to take quiet a few days to get it warmed up and fix burst pipes etc.
My house in -20 C drops from 20 degs internal temp by 1 deg per hour with 300mm of rockwool insulating it. And I have a backup wood fire with 20 m3 of wood in the barn to burn in case of power cut taking the heatpump out.
I believe Southern states have no where near 300mm insulation..
I didn't realise though how isolated some states are from the rest of the infrastructure.
Its not going to get above freezing until Sat or Sunday and if the hardware has been cold soaked for a week its going to take quiet a few days to get it warmed up and fix burst pipes etc.
My house in -20 C drops from 20 degs internal temp by 1 deg per hour with 300mm of rockwool insulating it. And I have a backup wood fire with 20 m3 of wood in the barn to burn in case of power cut taking the heatpump out.
I believe Southern states have no where near 300mm insulation..
Typically everyone in the US designs to ASHREA design day.
The lowest extreme cold day temp listed for Houston is 16F, at 6:53 this morning it was 15F (-9C) at the airport. So the temperature essentially matches the ASHREA extreme cold day.
At this temperature the usual approach of brining roadways does not work well, actually nothing works well on freezing rain except staying home.
The lowest extreme cold day temp listed for Houston is 16F, at 6:53 this morning it was 15F (-9C) at the airport. So the temperature essentially matches the ASHREA extreme cold day.
At this temperature the usual approach of brining roadways does not work well, actually nothing works well on freezing rain except staying home.
Today's weather here. We've got some dust blowing in from Africa, but otherwise ..
Snow is up the mountain a bit.
Snow is up the mountain a bit.
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Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
Any news on the nukes? I seems to remember Texas has 4 two are maritime climate and the other two are central. They are quiet old as well so I doubt they can be run up quickly or for that matter at max.
It's a bit disheartening to be honest seeing some of the reactions in the solar forums about all this.
It's a bit disheartening to be honest seeing some of the reactions in the solar forums about all this.
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- #37
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
Not in here, Its various forums I read on renewables.
If there was a solar/domestic renewables forum here I too would be interest in it where the extremes of the internet haven't found.
If there was a solar/domestic renewables forum here I too would be interest in it where the extremes of the internet haven't found.
racookpe1978
Nuclear
One of the two South Texas Project plants tripped off yesterday. I do not know the reason, but that killed some 1275 Megs.
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- #39
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
Are they the newish ones?
They had a fire there a few years ago I think in the switching yard.
They were talking about shutting them all down due to economics.
They had a fire there a few years ago I think in the switching yard.
They were talking about shutting them all down due to economics.
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Do you remember when they exported Texas management expertise to one of the major tar sands plants about 15 or so years ago?
That led to the first cold weather caused shutdown in 30 years.
A Texas oil company bought a large share of one of the major upgrading plants in Northern Alberta and sent a bunch of Texas managers to Northern Alberta to show the Canucks how to do what they had been doing well for decades.
There were a number of small temporary shelters around a number of pumps.
Just tarps over a scaffold framework.
As the story was told by the workers:
The new managers saw these little structures and asked;
"Why do we have all those ugly little shit-shacks around the plant?"
"Those are to keep the pumps from freezing in winter."
"We have winter in Texas too. Get rid of them."
Then a cold snap hit.
Without the shacks to keep the wind off of the pumps, the pump insulation and heat tracing cold not keep up with the wind chill induced heat loss.
Circulation was lost and the plant shut down.
As far as I know, that was the first weather related shutdown in the history of the plant.
The original build was in the mid '70s.
That was round one.
Round two.
Trying to re-start the plant in very cold weather didn't work well either.
As part of the process a large duct transported soot from one process to another.
The soot started settling out in the duct. (The cross section of this duct was over 100 square feet.
Then the soot caught fire.
The fire spread and took out an electrical building.
For a number of years after, an often heard phrase in the field, particularly in response to unwise suggestions was;
"Ya! We get winter in Texas too."
Bill
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Ohm's law
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It's the LAW!
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