Sub assembly Arrangements

[NutAce]

Hello Guys (and Dolls)

I'm running into the below issue... (see attached picture)

We have created a turbocharger assembly which has components (Sub assemblies) containing different (positions) arrangements.
The arrangements are created at the sub assemblies level because the possible combinations are numerous.
PAAD184829 - 12 positions
PAAD184830 - 8 positions
PAAD184831 - 6 positions
This will give me 576 possible combinations for the turbocharger Assembly PAAT017378.
Of course I wouldn't like to have 576 arrangements in the top level of the Turbocharger Assembly.

Now when I place the turbocharger in the engine assembly PAAD184891 I would like to do that with a certain combination of arrangements.
However, when I save the Engine assembly and reopen it, the arrangements of the Turbocharger subassemblies revert back to the default (as it was saved and released).

Is it at all possible to apply (and save) arrangements from 3rd level sub assemblies? Seems it is not possible at all...
Ideal way of working would be if I could transfer the "Turbocharger subassembly selected arrangements" to the Engine Assembly top-level... (Similar to override position).

Any ideas on this subject? Possible solutions?

Ronald van den Broek
Application Specialist
Winterthur Gas & Diesel Ltd
NX8.5.3 / TC9.1.2
HPZ420 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 0 @ 3.60GHz, 32 Gb Win7 64B
Nvidea Quadro4000 2048MB DDR5
HP EliteBook 8570W Intel(R) Core(TM) I7-3740QM CPU @ 2.70GHz, 16Gb Win7 64B

 

[JohnRBaker]

Could we see a bit more of the Assembly Navigator, with at least one of the typical subassemblies expanded to show the structure there as well?

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
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[NutAce]

Hi John...

Attached the ANT with the Arrangements per Sub assembly

Ronald van den Broek
Application Specialist
Winterthur Gas & Diesel Ltd
NX8.5.3 / TC9.1.2
HPZ420 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 0 @ 3.60GHz, 32 Gb Win7 64B
Nvidea Quadro4000 2048MB DDR5
HP EliteBook 8570W Intel(R) Core(TM) I7-3740QM CPU @ 2.70GHz, 16Gb Win7 64B

 

[NutAce]

Hi All.

Seems to be there is no solution to my problem.
I would like to have your opinion on this....

I'm thinkin on raising an ER with Gtac to have the following solution.
We should be able to apply sub assembly arrangements in context of the main assembly.
Which means that the main assembly should store the arrangements as they were applied such that the next time the assembly is opend the correct arrangement is shown for each subassembly.

Would there be , in your opinion, enough support from business globally?


Ronald van den Broek
Application Specialist
Winterthur Gas & Diesel Ltd
NX8.5.3 / TC9.1.2
HPZ420 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 0 @ 3.60GHz, 32 Gb Win7 64B
Nvidea Quadro4000 2048MB DDR5
HP EliteBook 8570W Intel(R) Core(TM) I7-3740QM CPU @ 2.70GHz, 16Gb Win7 64B

 

[JohnRBaker]

You can open the ER of course, however, after discussing this with some others here, we're not sure exactly what a solution would look like. The issue is that it would require us to violate one of the 'stone tablets' that we have with respect to not imposing changes to the children (AKA Components) of an Assembly so as to store some information about how a Component was used in the Assembly, in this case, the status of the arrangements set in each sub-assembly by the top level Assembly. More likely, we would need to come-up with some totally new scheme to define these arrangement settings outside the Assembly's current structure that would be imposed on the Assembly, and its relevant Components (i.e. the sub-assemblies), when it was opened.

So while we welcome your ER, we don't see how it could be addressed without some significant expenditure of R&D resources so unless we see this request coming from a broad segment of our customer base, it will probably not be given serious consideration.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[NutAce]

Hi John...

Maybe I am seeing this wrong, but..

I would not be changing anything in the child (subassembly)component..it already has the arrangements stored.
Only thing what is happening is that the main assembly is telling the child (subassembly)component to addapt the chosen (in context of the main assembly) arrangement.
That information would be stored in my main assembly, not in the child (subassembly)component.


Ronald van den Broek
Application Specialist
Winterthur Gas & Diesel Ltd
NX8.5.3 / TC9.1.2
HPZ420 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 0 @ 3.60GHz, 32 Gb Win7 64B
Nvidea Quadro4000 2048MB DDR5
HP EliteBook 8570W Intel(R) Core(TM) I7-3740QM CPU @ 2.70GHz, 16Gb Win7 64B

 

[JohnRBaker]

Unfortunately that only works for the arrangemetns set for the first-level sub-assemblies. What about the arrangements in the second and third levels? Arrangements are only under the control of the Assembly where the sub-assemblies are one level below it. Remember, you technically can only guarantee that you will have 'Write Access' to the top-level Assembly. All the other components, including the sub-assemblies down two, three or more levels deep, the only way that you can actually change the Arrangements seen at those level is by modifying the Assemblies that the sub-assemblies are first-level components in. Despite the fact that it might appear as if you're editing the arrangement at those various levels from the top-level Assembly, if you have the 'Modified' column set in your Assembly Navigator you will see that these Components are being flagged as Modified and unless they are saved they will not retain the Arrangement settings that were made. And even if you said, fine, I'll save them as well, if those same sub-assemblis were then opened in some other top-level assembly they would retain the settings that were set when the first Assembly was saved.

To see what I mean, think of two users working on two DIFFERENT top-level Assemblies but which shares, down at those second and third levels, common sub-assemblies. Both users would have to have full Write Access to all the models in order for them to save their arrangements setting but that would mean that if one user set some lower level arrangement to 'A' while another set them to 'B', the guy who files last would be the one would get what he expected the next time he opened HIS assembly, unless the other guy had made a change after he had last filed.

As I stated before:

"The issue is that it would require us to violate one of the 'stone tablets' that we have with respect to not imposing changes to the children (AKA Components) of an Assembly so as to store some information about how a Component was used in the Assembly, in this case, the status of the arrangements set in each sub-assembly by the top level Assembly."

The sub-assemblies, even if they ARE changed while open in a top-level assembly, do NOT know WHICH assembly made that change, they only register that A change was made.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[NutAce]

Hi John...

Still not seeing the problem here and forgive me for that, just trying to learn something here... .

You have already stated it yourself.

Arrangements are only under the control of the Assembly where the sub-assemblies are one level below it.

There you have the Enhance request...this should be changed and extended to 2nd or 3rd level.
The information which tells which arrangement is to be applied is already stored in the toplevel, not in the subassembly (therefor no save needed on subassembly itself)

If you have a look at below picture

Assy A has been created with 3 arrangements and saved and released...nothing can be changed in there anymore.
Assy B is created where A has been added as sub assy. Assy B is telling A to show arrangement 1.
That information is now stored in Assy B, assy B is released and locked for changing.
So far this is working as is currently... No problems here...

Now I'm creating Assy C. There I want to add B as Subassembly, but now Assy C is telling to "override" B arrangement setting and tell A to show arrangement 2...
So I am not wanting to change any information in Assy B. I am only storing information into assy C such that, when it loads Assy B, it changes A to arrangement 2.

Think of it like the Override possition as used in constraints..that setting is also stored in context of the assembly..(if I'm correct).
Once again, I am just trying to grasp how the engine works...



Ronald van den Broek
Application Specialist
Winterthur Gas & Diesel Ltd
NX8.5.3 / TC9.1.2
HPZ420 Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-1620 0 @ 3.60GHz, 32 Gb Win7 64B
Nvidea Quadro4000 2048MB DDR5
HP EliteBook 8570W Intel(R) Core(TM) I7-3740QM CPU @ 2.70GHz, 16Gb Win7 64B

 

[JohnRBaker]

Your description and diagram is absolutely correct, the only point missing is that in your A/B/C assembly, 'C' has NO say in what happens to the Arrangement setting in 'A', that's the responsibility of 'B' only. And your proposed solution, which is pretty good BTW, falls into my second comment from my original response to you, which in essence describes what you referred to as the ability to 'override' what has been saved in the lower level Components:

"More likely, we would need to come-up with some totally new scheme to define these arrangement settings outside the Assembly's current structure that would be imposed on the Assembly, and its relevant Components (i.e. the sub-assemblies), when it was opened."

The issue is not, "can we do this" (you can do anything with software ;-), it's the fact that it takes time and resources and as I said, open your ER but we will need to see a broader interest than just a single user or organization asking for this before we could reasonably make this a priority for our R&D people.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.