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Software Recommendation 1
- Thread starter gcomyn
- Start date
STYMIEDPIPER
Mechanical
Recommend that you contact the local reps in your area for the two software packages. Perhaps other vendors per recommendations per the responses to your post.
Most software packages have a full or partial access tutorial which will allow you the opportunity use the features of the program whereas you can decide if it suits your needs what is best for your application.
Most 'free' tutorials will have a day (ie 30 days) or number (ie 30 times program can be accessed) counter to allow you time to make an informed judgement regaring the software package.
Most software packages have a full or partial access tutorial which will allow you the opportunity use the features of the program whereas you can decide if it suits your needs what is best for your application.
Most 'free' tutorials will have a day (ie 30 days) or number (ie 30 times program can be accessed) counter to allow you time to make an informed judgement regaring the software package.
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1
- #3
I've been trying to answer your basic question for 15 years. Before that there were about 3 mainframe answers and none of them were "affordable" and very few companies had more than one installed (we used MTRAN, STONER was the standard at pipeline companies, I know there was a third, but I don't remember what it was).
Today there are hundreds. A few years back I took one of the mainframe models and calibrated it to exactly match a pipeline snapshot. Then I took a different snapshot and fed in the rates and delivery pressures. The mainframe model matched the first set within 3 psi at every point in the first case (after tweaking pipe condition) and within 7 psi at every point in the second case (without any tweaking after the first case).
I've run these two cases in 15 models and had another 5 vendors run them in their labs. Until this year no one had ever come close. Finally, earlier this year Neotech in the UK was able to match every point in the first case within 5 psi and nearly every point in the second case to within 10 psi with their PipeFlo software. No one has ever come that close before and I was so impressed that I loaded a demo copy of the software, and I liked that enough to purchase the package (not cheep, but none of them are).
You need to do your own evaluation. Every package has their own quirks--some cosmetic and some serious. One package has a bias to always flow gas from low numbered nodes to high numbered nodes. Another doesn't let you control where line loops terminate. etc.
I've found that the pretty user interface is the least important feature of a model and the really important features (i.e., does it do the arithmetic correctly and repeatably?) can only be evaluated by doing a rigerous comparison to known data.
I like PipeFlo, but it may have some quirks that I have not yet discovered that will be disasterous in your application. Unless you do your own evaluation, you will only know there is a problem when the world crashes down around your ears at 2:00 am on a Monday morning before a board meeting at 9:00 am.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
The harder I work, the luckier I seem
Today there are hundreds. A few years back I took one of the mainframe models and calibrated it to exactly match a pipeline snapshot. Then I took a different snapshot and fed in the rates and delivery pressures. The mainframe model matched the first set within 3 psi at every point in the first case (after tweaking pipe condition) and within 7 psi at every point in the second case (without any tweaking after the first case).
I've run these two cases in 15 models and had another 5 vendors run them in their labs. Until this year no one had ever come close. Finally, earlier this year Neotech in the UK was able to match every point in the first case within 5 psi and nearly every point in the second case to within 10 psi with their PipeFlo software. No one has ever come that close before and I was so impressed that I loaded a demo copy of the software, and I liked that enough to purchase the package (not cheep, but none of them are).
You need to do your own evaluation. Every package has their own quirks--some cosmetic and some serious. One package has a bias to always flow gas from low numbered nodes to high numbered nodes. Another doesn't let you control where line loops terminate. etc.
I've found that the pretty user interface is the least important feature of a model and the really important features (i.e., does it do the arithmetic correctly and repeatably?) can only be evaluated by doing a rigerous comparison to known data.
I like PipeFlo, but it may have some quirks that I have not yet discovered that will be disasterous in your application. Unless you do your own evaluation, you will only know there is a problem when the world crashes down around your ears at 2:00 am on a Monday morning before a board meeting at 9:00 am.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
The harder I work, the luckier I seem
Hi there:
I would suggest that you go to the vendors web sites and download a demo version.
Some of the vendors that you mentioned offer a SaaS option -- software as a service where you can just rent the software of your choice over the Internet instead of buying a copy.
SaaS option makes it more affordable ...
Thanks,
Gordan Feric, PE
Engineering Software
I would suggest that you go to the vendors web sites and download a demo version.
Some of the vendors that you mentioned offer a SaaS option -- software as a service where you can just rent the software of your choice over the Internet instead of buying a copy.
SaaS option makes it more affordable ...
Thanks,
Gordan Feric, PE
Engineering Software
- Thread starter
- #5
You can be certain that for everyone that loves a particular product, a half dozen folks will slam it. For example one current big-name product (I really don't want to mention the name) has a tendency to just lock up and never run that model again if you add an additional 50% of nodes after the first time you run it. The people who love that particular product will tend to be very organized and create nearly a complete model from scratch prior to ever running it. The people who hate it either aren't as organized or (more often) are trying to extend an existing model. You're not going to discover this particular problem until you've used the program a while, and then it may too late to walk away from it.
What I'm trying to say is that other people's opinions are just about worthless for your selection process. If you look at the ads in the back of Pipeline and Gas Technology you'll see dozens of products. Anyone familiar with modeling will have another dozen or so that they have used or tested. The problem with advice is that the software is always changing (about one major update a year for most of them) and that we modelers never update our opinions. I rejected PipeFlo in 1997 because of some deficiency/bug/problem that I don't remember. This year I spent a bunch of money purchasing PipeFlo. In 10 years whatever made me reject it has been fixed. If the engineer at NeoTec hadn't been so persistent I wouldn't know that it was a quality product and I would have given you my 1997 opinion because it takes months to do a complete evaluation and no one ever has the time to do it over.
David
What I'm trying to say is that other people's opinions are just about worthless for your selection process. If you look at the ads in the back of Pipeline and Gas Technology you'll see dozens of products. Anyone familiar with modeling will have another dozen or so that they have used or tested. The problem with advice is that the software is always changing (about one major update a year for most of them) and that we modelers never update our opinions. I rejected PipeFlo in 1997 because of some deficiency/bug/problem that I don't remember. This year I spent a bunch of money purchasing PipeFlo. In 10 years whatever made me reject it has been fixed. If the engineer at NeoTec hadn't been so persistent I wouldn't know that it was a quality product and I would have given you my 1997 opinion because it takes months to do a complete evaluation and no one ever has the time to do it over.
David
Hi there:
Your software vendors are OK -- leaders in the field.
I have not used their products, but what I have heard is that that they are the best.
My suggestion is as follows:
a) download free demos and use them to see how you like the software
b) once you get familiar with the interface, test the demo version against some benchmark examples and find out how the results line up
c) make a decision if the software is wortwhile buying and/or renting or you need to go in some other direction ...
Good luck!
Thanks,
Gordan Feric, PE
Engineering Software
Your software vendors are OK -- leaders in the field.
I have not used their products, but what I have heard is that that they are the best.
My suggestion is as follows:
a) download free demos and use them to see how you like the software
b) once you get familiar with the interface, test the demo version against some benchmark examples and find out how the results line up
c) make a decision if the software is wortwhile buying and/or renting or you need to go in some other direction ...
Good luck!
Thanks,
Gordan Feric, PE
Engineering Software
<i>"What I am looking for is comments by people who have used some kind of software and what they thought of it."</i>
David's observations are spot-on and this is the one of the problems with a lot of expensive engineering software these days. I often wonder how many programs are just a repackaged version of core code that is licensed to others.
My experience is mostly CAD-centric and here's an example:
NavisWorks' software being licensed and renamed by Bentley as Bentley Explorer. Now Autodesk has bought NavisWorks. I'm wondering if my license from NavisWorks (for which I paid a Bond fee) includes free updates for the rest of the contract I have with Navis.
Of course, CAD/visualization software seems to be a much "iffy-er" gamble than more pure engineering software since the end users likely are less able to adapt to changes in GUI and other modifications (i.e., requiring more software support people).
For CAD users, the current abundance of software (PlantSpace, AutoPlant, PDS, PDMS, etc.) used for process piping design/modeling severely limits the ability to move to different projects and also reduces the available pool of talent for those who hire.
I don't foresee any improvement in the ability of movement between platforms in the near future unless employers dedicate a lot of money towards retraining.
Paul
David's observations are spot-on and this is the one of the problems with a lot of expensive engineering software these days. I often wonder how many programs are just a repackaged version of core code that is licensed to others.
My experience is mostly CAD-centric and here's an example:
NavisWorks' software being licensed and renamed by Bentley as Bentley Explorer. Now Autodesk has bought NavisWorks. I'm wondering if my license from NavisWorks (for which I paid a Bond fee) includes free updates for the rest of the contract I have with Navis.
Of course, CAD/visualization software seems to be a much "iffy-er" gamble than more pure engineering software since the end users likely are less able to adapt to changes in GUI and other modifications (i.e., requiring more software support people).
For CAD users, the current abundance of software (PlantSpace, AutoPlant, PDS, PDMS, etc.) used for process piping design/modeling severely limits the ability to move to different projects and also reduces the available pool of talent for those who hire.
I don't foresee any improvement in the ability of movement between platforms in the near future unless employers dedicate a lot of money towards retraining.
Paul
It also depends on what you want to do
-Do you want to run pipelines (maybe network. Do transient analysis and surge? Not very detailed control system? I would then recommend pipeline studio actually a new name for an old horse: TLNET (they also sell a license for TGNET with the same GUI)
-Do you want to do "plant" may fairly detalied. Control loops, PID controllers, C&E, script and such things? I can then recommend Flowmaster. This packacge is used in the automotive industry (and airplanes) a lot for cooling A/C etc. I mostly use it for plant system e.g. fire water, cooling etc. It gas / liquid (only single phase), transient and SS.
Both packages have fairly high fees and yearly maintenance fees.
Best regards
Morteh
-Do you want to run pipelines (maybe network. Do transient analysis and surge? Not very detailed control system? I would then recommend pipeline studio actually a new name for an old horse: TLNET (they also sell a license for TGNET with the same GUI)
-Do you want to do "plant" may fairly detalied. Control loops, PID controllers, C&E, script and such things? I can then recommend Flowmaster. This packacge is used in the automotive industry (and airplanes) a lot for cooling A/C etc. I mostly use it for plant system e.g. fire water, cooling etc. It gas / liquid (only single phase), transient and SS.
Both packages have fairly high fees and yearly maintenance fees.
Best regards
Morteh
beercia
Mechanical
- Jul 11, 2003
- 36
gcomyn:
I have used PIPE-FLO most of my piping design life. I have lived it from the DOS version 3.0 up to the latest version Professional 2007 and I´m very happy with it. It converges on large networks very fast and it´s very precise. It takes some time to get accustomed to its interface but once you master it it works flawlessly. Their tech support is tops and they respond very fast to any tech inquiry that you may send them. Very helpful people. You can model your actual equipment from manufacturers catalogs and include them in your designs.You can actually see how your system will behave in "real life". If you plan to do surge analysis then you´ll need a different software, like AFT Impulse. I have used PIPE-FLO for complex Pipeline, Fire Protection, Petroleum Process Piping and HVAC water systems. I strongly recommend it to anyone involved in piping system design.
Carlos
I have used PIPE-FLO most of my piping design life. I have lived it from the DOS version 3.0 up to the latest version Professional 2007 and I´m very happy with it. It converges on large networks very fast and it´s very precise. It takes some time to get accustomed to its interface but once you master it it works flawlessly. Their tech support is tops and they respond very fast to any tech inquiry that you may send them. Very helpful people. You can model your actual equipment from manufacturers catalogs and include them in your designs.You can actually see how your system will behave in "real life". If you plan to do surge analysis then you´ll need a different software, like AFT Impulse. I have used PIPE-FLO for complex Pipeline, Fire Protection, Petroleum Process Piping and HVAC water systems. I strongly recommend it to anyone involved in piping system design.
Carlos
Here's 5 more of them. All will do transient analysis. I have only used the first two and tried the last one.
Stoner Pipeline Simulator by Advantica
Pipeline Studio by Energy Solutions
PipeSim by Schlumberger
OLGA2000
Win Sim
I've tried Win Sim, but found it not to be very convenient for pipelines although it seems to work well for short pipes and process units.
Stoner Pipeline Simulator by Advantica
Pipeline Studio by Energy Solutions
PipeSim by Schlumberger
OLGA2000
Win Sim
I've tried Win Sim, but found it not to be very convenient for pipelines although it seems to work well for short pipes and process units.
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