Sealing Shop Drawings in California

[kws129]

I am looking for some opinions on the requirement for sealing shop drawings.

I work for a company that supplies various architectural components for buildings. We provide placement drawings for our products, much like for example steel joist drawings, which show a product mark #, location, etc.

Taking my lead from the joist industry which does not seal shop drawings, I believe that the shop drawings prepared for our products should not bear an engineers seal either.

They are not prepared under teh direst supervision of an engineer and we have provided sealed calculations.

Any thoughts?

 

[RHTPE]

It is my contention that placing/location drawings (be it for steel erection, rebar placement, component location, etc.) need not be sealed since they are not part of the contract documents relating to the design of the structure.

That said, I have seen specs that require the sealing of rebar placement drawings, though I can't say how it was resolved. I would not seal them if asked, and I've seen too many placement drawings that would be useless to the first-time user of those drawings.

Whoever seals said drawings must be prepared to take full responsibility for their content, as if they had actually produced them. I review and seal drawings for concrete formwork and shoring systems, as well as temporary structural support for building/structure demolition or modification. This is my position - if I place my seal on them, then I own them.



Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[Ron]

Ralph...I believe kws129's position is as the "supplier" not as the engineer of record being asked to sign/seal shop drawings prepared by others. In many states, he would be required to seal such shop drawings prepared for review by the Engineer of Record.

I'm not sure about California, but in my home state, shop drawings are often required to be signed/sealed as a function delegated by the Engineer of Record.

Ask the California Board of Professional Engineers.

 

[kws129]

That's correct, my position would be as a supplier.

I can tell you having formerly worked in teh steel joist industry that there would never be steel joist placement (shop) drawings issued with an engineers stamp on them.

 

[RHTPE]

Ron - I understood what kws129's position was, and it's exactly what I was trying to address.

What purpose is the EoR trying to accomplish when he requires a P.E. seal on a placing or location drawing? What responsibility is he/she trying to delegate to another engineer who knows little about the overall design of the structure? That the correct size joist is called out in a matching location on the placing drawing? Or that the correct bar qty & size is correctly shown on the rebar placing drawing? Is not the EoR the person in the best position to confirm this?

I started my career detailing OWSJs. Occasionally we would get this requirment, and more often than not we (the supplier) would refuse. We still supplied the product.

If the EoR produced a set of structural drawings that were clear and concise, and the placing drawings are produced based on those drawings, why the requirement for another P.E. to get involved? What real purpose does it serve, other than to spread around the possible liability to more than just the RoR and supplier?

Unfortunately, I come from a time when the Architect's or Engineer's approval actually meant something. When a mistake in the design professional's notation, if found on an Approved shop drawing, ultimately relieved the supplier of liability.


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[Ron]

Ralph,
Delegated engineering functions have taken on a life of their own in the past 20 or so years. In my state, the EoR is required to provide the design criteria to the delegated engineer, and then review the work. State law requires that the delegated engineer provide signed and sealed drawings/calcs/reports, etc.

If the drawing is showing a location only, then it is informational, not technical. If it is part of a package requiring proof of structural adequacy, then it would get signed and sealed.

What purpose is the EoR trying to accomplish when he requires a P.E. seal on a placing or location drawing?

.....Specific reliance on another engineer because he has no control nor supervisory responsibilities for any delegated structural work that will be incorporated into HIS design.

 

[RHTPE]

Ron - I think that we are talking about two completely different things.

(1) There is delegated design - that is when the EoR delegates the design of a specific part of the permanent structure to some other entity. Commonly: OWSJ with special loading; truss beams supporting OWSJ designed for the project; earth retention systems; post-tensioned slabs and beams; and the like. With these items, I would expect them to be designed by a professional engineer and sealed by same.

(2) But what ksw129 was referring to, specifically "I work for a company that supplies various architectural components for buildings. We provide placement drawings for our products, much like for example steel joist drawings, which show a product mark #, location, etc." are drawing that do not specifically require design by a delegated engineer. Why should those kind of drawings require a P.E. seal?


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[a2mfk]

Ron- I believe you are the Ron from FL. You probably already know this, but this is specifically spelled out in the Laws and Rules (just took the online class yesterday for my CEUs). An erection or placement drawing does NOT need to be signed and sealed. But the drawings showing the actual design of the joists/trusses/misc. delegated component would have to be S and S.

Does it say somewhere in the rules that they must also submit calcs or is this up to the EOR? If I do some misc. steel design for a big project for the fabricator, and I sign and seal the drawings of the components, do I also need to submit calculations according to the rules, or is it up to the EOR?

 

[dhengr]

I think we should have everyone sign off on and stamp everything. Common sense be damned. The OWSJ guy should sign off on every weld in every joist and provide the certified paper work for the specific welding rod used on each joint. The rod stubs should probably be kept and filed for a complete record. He should most certainly verify ever field dimension before manufacturing, and be willing to warrant the joist for any and all future loads. A nut, bolt and washers should come as a unit, chained together, with a serial number and the complete paper work in a weather proof packet, with all 37 or 38 signatures and stamps, ready for the job filing department sub-group for that particular connection. And, I think the stamps should include full name, address, 24/7 phone number, insurance agent’s number, etc. We’ve dumbed it down to the point that without this clear paper trail, the absolute and certain guilt of every party involved on every job is tougher and tougher to assure; a jury just won’t know how to process the close-out of the project. Forget the walk-around and punch list, just get the forklift for the paperwork. Furthermore, how do you expect the attorneys to keep sticking it to us in an efficient, timely and orderly way?

 

[RHTPE]

dhengr - Amen! And just imagine where things will go once LEED ratings become essential for every major project ...

How many LEED points can be lost for excessive CYA and excessive paperwork? LEED points should be subtracted every time a contractor has to submit an RFI to the design team.


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[Ron]

a2...renewal time again!! Yes, you are correct..that's why I stated that location only is for information, but if included in the structural assessment, must be signed and sealed. Spacing can be an important parameter in joist design, but is not always within the purview of the delegated engineer.

Guilty...the one from Florida.

Calc submittal is up to the EoR or the building department...usually one or the other will require.

dhengr...considering the state of litigation...you are entirely correct!!

 

[a2mfk]

Ron- if you have not already taken the FL laws and rules, I suggest suncam.com , cheap and easy, and actually thought provoking and applicable.

As the EOR and the specialty engineer at times, it seems hit or miss what is required, we usually are prepared to submit calcs as the specialty engineer. But thanks for the clarification, I did not think that was spelled out in the rules.

 

[Ron]

a2...I authored a laws and rules course, so I get the easy kind of credit...although I've probably already taken that credit...so I might take someone else's course anyway...thanks for the lead.