Open air ice rink for Saudi Arabia 6

[corrosionman]

We are doing a feasibility study for a sizeable open air (without overhead cover) ice rink wher the local ambient temp is up to 35 / 40 degrees. We believe ice has good reflective properties to overcome the intense sunlight and ice has good thermal insulation so that the sunlight will not quickly melt the ice layer. We realize that anything is feasible but at a cost and would greatly appreciate all comments, no matter how critical, and please has anyone any rough ideas on the power requirements per squ mtr for such a scheme We realise the rink need a high surrounding wall to enclose the cold air. Thanks in anticipation C M

 

[EdStainless]

The two things that come to my mind are the solar load and the sublimation of the ice. How low will the RH be? I am aware that most rinks use very thin ice. In some ways this might not help you.
How clean of water will you have available?

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[dcasto]

I don't see how you can keep the water from just puddling up. Open lakes have that problem in the spring when the sun shines more and the air temp is above 32 F

 

[IRstuff]

You're going to get slushy ice at the top, possibly. The thickness of the ice and the refrigerator underneath will drive the numbers.

Assuming a maximum of 1100 W/m^2 solar load and assuming 10 W/m^2 convective transfer with a -5ºC surface temp and 40ºC air temp, the total load would be about 1550 W/m^2. If the ice is 2-inches thick, the chiller would need to be at -45ºC, which is pretty darn cold.

To make this happen would require enough energy to power around 3000 homes.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[macmet]

They have problems with keeping ice from becoming slush in indoor arenas in Florida, Texas, California... Maybe try contacting one of these arenas and see what they've done to try to fix the problem.

 

[gr2vessels]

Corrosionman,
You are right with the wall..You can try a wall, say 100ft tall and that will keep the sun out for most of the day....By the way, you are building in Dubai, aren't you?
Cheers,
gr2vessels

 

[Twoballcane]

Why not put a tent over the ice rink to keep the solor load off the ice. You still have the open rink feel, but it still feels like your outside. Another thought, why not use dry ice? Just thinking out loud.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[0707]

Dubai snow dome

luismarques

 

[GMcD]

Open air ice surface in a hot climate, right up there with the ski facility in Dubai as pictured over. The most inefficient uses of precious energy ever seen after snowmelt using fossil fueled boilers in cold climates...... And yet engineers are falling over themselves trying to figure out how to do it!!?? Enclose the ice arena in a proper fully insulated building and minimize the energy as much as possible. Use some quad-pane skylights for a bit of an "open look" and use at least 100mm rigid insulation under and around the ice slab base.

 

[dcasto]

Nicely stated GMcD

 

[IRstuff]

Finding a solution the problem is different than implementing a solution.

As I pointed out in my other post, you'd need enough energy to power a small city to make it work.

Working on "impossible" problems got us to the moon (assuming you believe THAT hoax) and potentially can inspire someone to come up with a much more elegant solution than the brute force and ignorance approach.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[telecomguy]

As twoballcane posted, have you considered other lubricating surfaces? Maybe the traditional H2O is just not practical here. Or maybe it's a matter of some additive to the water to raise the freezing point (anti-anti-freeze?)...

<tg>

 

[Wicsteve]

Just curious

How does desert sand, soft ice, and sharp skates work together?

 

[IRstuff]

Given that they've already got a ski slope, a skating rink would seem to be quite apropos.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[corrosionman]

Gentlemen, all your suggestions have been greatly appreciated, and noted,and will be taken into account during our excerise.
At the moment we are still not sure if the concept is feasible from Thermal considerations - - maybe radiated heat at 40 degrees will input heat quicker than conduction through ice can take it away - - - we plan to build a one square meter test rig and simulate sunshine with radiant heaters. I will report our findings
Many many thanks. CM

 

[jpankask]

I firmly believe that we can do anything we want to do...but how much time, money and energy will it cost? I think in this case, you are wasting your time, money and energy. Here in the midwest United States, I have seen ice melt on a sunny day, even when the outdoor air temperature is below freezing. The amount of energy that would be required to keep a large ice block frozen in the desert would be tremendous. Also, we put sand on the icy roads so that we have more traction in the winter. How much sand will be deposited on the ice in an open-air arena? How to keep it clean so that people could actually ice-skate. Seems to me a lot of hurdles to overcome...

 

[sreid]

Another posible problem is that there is an optimal ice temperature for ice skating. This is so the ice melts under the skate's pressure/friction. You probably can't just throw in a lot of cold to keep the ice surface from melting.

 

[JStephen]

If you put a big wall around this to cut down convection, you could have a situation where part of the rink is in shade and part in shadow, so you would perhaps need varying cooling across the face, rather that just uniform cooling.