online engineering for sale 8

[JAE]

Came across this website -

http://www.virtualengineer.com/

- Nothing too exceptional about it but it got me to thinking -
Under US engineering laws, if one "sells" engineering consulting (i.e. "need a beam size" statement from the website) and the person asking, and the project, is in a state in which the online engineer is not licensed, and they provide a beam size, doesn't this violate the law?

 

[FlashSet]

There was a quite long thread about a similar topic within the last year or so. A quick search that I conducted was unable to return something, but it is out there.

 

[FlashSet]

nevermind...found it:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=318731

 

[Forensic74]

Honestly, I dont think what that website is doing is that much different than what you guys do on eng-tips. This guy is just asking for money for his opinions.

For sale or not, I think giving out engineering design opinions to random people in god knows what state or country is borderline unethical.

 

[Ron]

what you guys do on eng-tips.

A bit disingenuous don't you think, MM10? Considering that you have both asked and answered questions herein, it is offensive that you want to separate yourself from the rest of us by your statement.

Realizing that you have not been an Eng-Tips member that long, perhaps you don't yet understand the premise and intent of Eng-Tips....it is for ENGINEERS to discuss ENGINEERING points and issues with other ENGINEERS. These are not "random people". It is not a DIY forum and there is no intent to offer engineering to the public, free or otherwise. That's the difference and it is a big one. Further, it is peer reviewed by design and in most cases an appropriate answer is gained from the responses.

As for the point that JAE brought up, it is my opinion that such activity violates both the spirit and letter of engineering laws in the US with which I am familiar. Engineering should not be practiced in a vacuum and should not be so lightly engaged as to be done with such limited and partial information as would be provided by a non-engineer soliciting online engineering services.

 

[Forensic74]

My 47 posts is in no way comparable to your 3000+ posts in tech forums and I'll leave it at that unless you really want to get into it Ron.

You dont know the real background on 99 percent of the folks on here. This site is open to the public no matter what the intent is and you're offering engineering opinions, advertised as a PE. Just because the opinions are free and are posted on a forum website verses your own website doesn't really make a difference. Neither eng-tips or virtual engineer implies that the opinions can be used in the real world without an appropriate licensed individual actually making the final call. Therefore, while virtual engineer has the potential to be abused by people who know less (hopefully this California PE can smell a homeowner trying to take his design and run with it), it is fundamentally the same as this site.

 

[JAE]

I guess I side with Ron here.

At least in the forums I visit here, you can tell who is, and who is not, and engineer just based on the level/depth of the questions.

Another big difference here is that original posters who ask for free engineering services, beam sizes, etc., are typically kicked off the site.

Eng-Tips tends to give tips on "how to fish" while the other site appears to give out fish for a fee.
Eng-Tips provides direction, suggestions, references, links, shared experiences, etc.
The other site simply offers engineering services for folks who need those services (i.e. non-engineers)

With multiple posters answering questions and challenging posters if they don't appear to be engineers.

There is a huge difference.

 

[strucguy]

I don't see any issue here. The website clearly mentions that all the questions will be answered by licensed professionals. If that is the case...what difference does it make if they are providing services via internet or in person.

 

[JAE]

The difference is the project could be in a state where the engineer isn't licensed...which is unlawful.

 

[GregLocock]

" unlawful"...except for federal projects, or overseas projects and probably other cases. Still, perhaps we should leave law to the lawyers.


Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[msquared48]

It is true Greg that some engineering does not have to be performed by one who is licensed as such in certain situations, but that is not the case here.

And as for the lawyers, this is not one for their call, but the individual state boards where the projects are located. This is recognized princple in the professional engineering community that has been established by state statures that an engineer must be licensed in the state where the project is, not just where the engineer has his office and does the work. And that is the problem here, and it is VERY basic. That is why we have to get licensed in each and every state we practice. No different than an attorney or doctor in that regard. I have to agree with Ron and JAE here.

Personally, I think the issue needs to be brought before a few state boards as formal complaints. The individual states that he is licensed in California, but mentions no others. That IS an issue for projects in other states. He is advertising as a professional engineer on the internet that reaches all 50 states, as well as other countries, and he is taking compensation for his services. That incurs the reliance of the client on his judgement and services, and professional liability. The courts would not expect a homeowner to know that an engineer must be licensed in the state where the project is (to the same level as a professional engineer), but they would expect a professional engineer to know that, and they would hold him to it ovr the homeowner.

Seems to me that liability would be one H300 of a problem here a this individual has absolutely no way to verify the conditions of beam loading or lateral design other than the testimony of the owner or person asking for the solution.

I would be very interested to know if, outside of California, any of his work was submitted to a local jurisdiction and was suuccessful in obtaining a building permit.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[GregLocock]

You don't chuck words like unlawful around unless you write carefully.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[strucguy]

The website clearly said they are licensed in California. So, the law will take its own course if they are offering services to projects that they are not supposed to. In the mean time the world is open for them to sell their services. Just because I am make my services available to the whole world for a fee doesn't make me a law breaker.

 

[JAE]

I didn't "chuck" words around. I said it "could" be unlawful if the project is in a state where the online engineer isn't licensed. That is simply a fact of the law.

strucguy refers to letting the law take its course. I would agree.

I don't agree with the last statement: "Just because I am make my services available to the whole world for a fee doesn't make me a law breaker."
Many states explicitly make unlawful even the promotion of engineering in their state without a license (Nevada for one). So offering services online to a Nevada resident would be against the law.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Many years ago there was a company doing exactly this type of engineering. Many boards came down on them very hard and they quickly dropped off the web!!

Just what I rememeber.

 

[strucguy]

It's a website for god's sake and it can been seen by a resident from here in Nevada to as far as in Malaysia. And just because the law in Malaysia doesn't let me offer any engineering services there, do you mean to say I need to take my website down. The website didn't explicitly say they are offering services to someone in Nevada nor did they mention they are not licensed in Nevada. Now in all fairness let's let the people who are offering those services decide who they want to offer their services to, and let the law take it's own course. I don't see how this is any different to anyone opening an engineering firm here in Connecticut and creating a website that says they are licensed in Connecticut and willing to offer some engineering services. Just because someone in Nevada is able to see this website doesn't amount to the other person promoting their business in Nevada, does it?

 

[msquared48]

strucguy:

This is not Malaysia. It's just not the same thing legally. It is the US, and the guy is licensed in California. He should know the law here, and, hopefully as the US citizen that he is, is certainsly subject to them. Even if yhe is not a citizen, he is still subject to, and bound by, the laws of the state in which he resides. Let the state boards decide on this one... again.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[JAE]

strucguy - I think you are mis-understanding my root issue with this.

Yes it is a website - nothing wrong with that. Nothing illegal about it. It's all good.
The concern is not the website.

The concern is the issue of the practicing of engineering by the website engineer (a Calif. PE) in another state where they may not be licensed.
The website is simply the vehicle for the communication - not the illegal act itself.

My own firm has a website and we advertise our services - someone in a state where we are not licensed could certainly contact us for services.
At that point we would have to tell them that we are not licensed in the state of X and would have to get licensed to serve them.

This is NOT what the subject website appears to be doing and thus my questioning of their offering to anyone, anywhere, that they can provide engineering "online" for a fee.
If they do that - and don't give a damn where the project is, and they provide a beam size for example, they are breaking the law if it's in a state where they are licensed.

The earlier thread on another website was mentioned (see Flashset's reference above) - I recall speaking with a local state engineering board official about it and they said they were powerless to
investigate something like this unless someone had evidence that an non-licensed person provided engineering services in our state.

My presumption on situations like this is that if an engineering design gets inspected, or needs a permit, then the governing authority will request an engineering sealed/signed document and that would be the trigger to flush out any illegal activity.

 

[GregLocock]

Until we build a world wide web that doesn't cross state (or national) boundaries I guess there will always be a few dodgy possibilities.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[Forensic74]

I know you guys are honing in on the one line with "beam size", but he is also offering:

Got a question on building a project?
Do you need to know what the building code says about anything?
Need information on wind or seismic design?
Just looking for general information or direction?

If you need to know anything about architectural items such as energy and insulation, ADA requirements, finish materials, exiting, set backs, stairways, lighting, fire resistively, roofing or just about anything else, all is available.

You can get answers online at a very reasonable cost.
No question is too small or insignificant.

Which in essence is a paid version of this site.