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Free structural engineering!
3

Free structural engineering!

RE: Free structural engineering!

Free?  I don't think so...

Accept Your Answer
Happy with your answer? Just click "Accept" to pay your Expert.

Notice the word "pay".  

However, it does appear that if you are not happy with the answer, you don't have to pay.  Boy, could I have a lot of fun with this!

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
 

RE: Free structural engineering!

"if you are not happy with the answer, you don't have to pay"

Sounds like a lot of clients we work for

RE: Free structural engineering!

Well, thats just asking to be sued when something goes wrong. I dont even like giving advice over the phone, when I can ask 1000's of questions. Usually want to look at a drawing, or the situation if a remodel or something.
 

RE: Free structural engineering!

Makes for an interesting question - how is this different than Eng-Tips?  In one sense, most of the activity here is simply between engineers - offering tips to fellow engineering professionals.  Over there the answers are simply for others who are not engineers.

Some of their experts are licensed PE's.  I wonder how this relates to the engineering laws where you can't practice in a state without a license?  Is answering a question online for someone in New York state the same as practicing in NY?
 

RE: Free structural engineering!

This is deplorable.  The following question was posed and answered on the site.

"I am trying to build a bridge capable of spanning approx. 25 feet able to carry a fully loaded large vehicle and possibly light to medium grade construction equipment. This bridge will be about 15-20 foot wide as well. What type of equipment will I need and what type of footing will be needed?"  

The responses included foundations, beams, deck, and slab sizes.  

Fee: $30.00.

 

RE: Free structural engineering!

This is highly dangerous and unethical.  I read through some of the questions, and these guys are spouting off beam sizes to use based on very limited information, to people with no technical background that don't even know the right questions to ask.  I don't want some DIY'er to use a W12x26 for a roof beam for a church just because some guy on the internet said so.

This is really something that should be reported to an engineering board, but who knows what state (or country even) since it is all online?

RE: Free structural engineering!

Steellion, it appears that one of these folks may have been a classmate of your's.  Claims to have a degree from PSU with a PE obtained in 2008.  (This of course assumes that Lion means Nittany Lion)

RE: Free structural engineering!

JAE, it is fundamentally different from eng-tips.  Here, as soon as anyone even suspects that someone asking a question may not have an engineering background, the default response is and should be, "Hire a structural engineer."  Not "pay me $30 and I'll give you a beam size and what you do with that information is your problem".

OHIOMatt, how did you find out where the responders went to school?  I think the first step is to send this to NSPE and try to get this website shut down before someone gets hurt.  The second step would be to go after responders for ethics violations.

RE: Free structural engineering!

(OP)
In my mind, there is a difference between the problems that routinely appear on industrial work, e.g. having to re-do a design that was based on client preferred, previously used equipment that turns out to be no longer available, completely re-designed; and the man made problems such as when some architect makes a change but claims he is only "allowing the building to become what it wants to be". The one is easier to take than the other.

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

RE: Free structural engineering!

Probably violates every state law on the use of P.E.

A few years ago - there was a website that did this.  They were basically "chased" our of business because they weren't licensed in many states and did NOT have proper control over the projects...

RE: Free structural engineering!

I think anyone who posts an answer on there is taking on a risk and unknown liability, and anyone who uses those answers is in even worse position.

I can understand people wanting free help, but any engineer who posts answers on there should be booted, and if I were carrying their PL insurance, I'd cut them off immediately.

RE: Free structural engineering!

Wow.

I don't reply much on this forum because as an EI I don't have the confidence to answer questions with 100% certainty. These people must be my polar opposite.

For those of you that are shy to click a strange link (I know you're out there) Here is a summary of the type of questions.

Q:"I have a post in my basement carrying a 2 span 8" beam with 12' spans on each side. I need to move 3 1/2'"

A:"Sure move it no problem I'm sure the design engineer oversized the beam by 30% for strength and more than that for deflection. Also I am 100% positive that there is no post down above the existing column that could deflect your basement beam and make your whole house fall in on itself in the middle. I don't need a description of the framing because every 3 story residential house is built exactly the same and never has deviations from the standard framing plans"
 

RE: Free structural engineering!

Not sure who I feel more sorry for.....the guy asking the question or the one answering it.

RE: Free structural engineering!

(OP)
ooops I dropped that in the wrong thread 3eyes

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

RE: Free structural engineering!

   I am looking at an ad at the bottom of this page entitled "Ask a Beam Size Engineer".  It takes you to paddingtongreen's website.  

   I did a whois search on justanswer.com.

CODE

Administrative Contact:
JustAnswer LLC
Domain Administrator
38 Keyes Avenue Suite 150
San Francisco, CA 94129
US
Phone: +1.4159299921
Email: domains@justanswer.com

Technical Contact:
Corporation Service Company
Domain Registrar
PO Box 597
Yarmouth, NS B5A 4B4
CA
Phone: +1.9027465201
Email: admin@internationaladmin.com

               JHG

RE: Free structural engineering!

Well, hopefully they will be shut down soon, and if anyone one knows that boob answering all the questions, punch him in the face.  

RE: Free structural engineering!

Well, that's a problem that I saw when I inspected opportunities in the so-called free-lance jobs (or works) ... fees most the times were ridiculously low for the standards of developed countries. I assumed (but may be wrong) that the proposals were coming from places where a handful of euros or dollars may mean something real, only allowed by money exchange vagaries. To think of applicable codes from an international setup practice must be a nightmare, I am sure it is for those who do and how much for these presumably small teams. Maybe there is some sizeable design provider out-there ... exploitation of poverty or low standards is present anywhere.

RE: Free structural engineering!

The same profile OHIOMatt posted says he was issued a PE from the department of state.
Thats probably how he gets around violating every state law on the use of PEs
<g>

RE: Free structural engineering!

A PE from the Dept of State??  Never heard of it!! Don't think so?? Then why am I registered in 42 states????  If I could "buy" just one - don't you thing NCEES and I would be on that??

RE: Free structural engineering!

(OP)
There is a "Verified" button on his profile. It claims to have verified that he has Pennsylvania PE.

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

RE: Free structural engineering!

his name on the profile looks familiar...I think he is a member of this forum too!

RE: Free structural engineering!

MiketheEngineer....that was my thought as well, except that the State of Pennsylvania issues its professional licenses through its "Department of State".

RE: Free structural engineering!

They should change the name to JustSueMe.  And how do you get away with providing engineering services without identifying yourself or posting your license?  Also, if the site is advertising itself as providing engineering services to clients, and getting paid for it, wouldn't it need a certificate of authorization and proof that a licensed engineer is in responsible charge?  (That's how it works in my state.)

RE: Free structural engineering!

DTOREC....Exactly.  This should be reported to every engineering board, but particularly in PA since it has been identified...any PA engineers out there who want to follow their law and report it?

RE: Free structural engineering!

Ron - I'll give it a try but I'm not sure if it'll do any good. There's a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo on their site, but more important, we don't know the name of the PA engineer.

I'll keep everyone updated.

RE: Free structural engineering!

bb...thanks.  Yeah, it is a bit tougher, but they can at least go after the website owner for running an engineering business.  In my state, if you advertise the services, you have to have the credentials.

RE: Free structural engineering!

Same here.  

RE: Free structural engineering!

Done. I'll keep everyone posted.

RE: Free structural engineering!

bridgebuster and Ron, I am going to try and send you each a PM.

RE: Free structural engineering!

bb...I sent an email to my state board with a link to the site and some specific questions as to how they would check this out.  I'll post what I find as well.

RE: Free structural engineering!

(OP)
Me too.

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

RE: Free structural engineering!

Let's see...  $30.00 for a 5 minute beam size...  

That's about $360.00 per hour...  

At those rates, it's obvious he's a lawyer!

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
 

RE: Free structural engineering!

Mike - go to that site and click on meet the experts. They do have a lawyer named "psimmons".

 

RE: Free structural engineering!

Please forgive my ignorance, I've only been in the professional a couple years, but maybe someone could help me out.
Is what he's doing actually illegal?

1) He's not signing and sealing plans
2) He's not providing construction details
3) He's not providing construction drawings that could be used for permit
4) Anyone using the service would probably just make something up if there wasn't a cheap/convenient resource available
5) A couple I the questions I read had lengthy disclaimers about how he hasn't visited the site, has only the information provided by the client, and the client is responsible for the use of the information...

I whole-heartedly agree with all of the negative attention he's getting and fully believe it cheapens the profession, but from a strictly legal standpoint, what law is he violating?

RE: Free structural engineering!

Structural20036,

A couple of observations on your question:

1.  In some states it is illegal to portray yourself as an engineer if you are not licensed in that state (Nevada for example).  Even if the project didn't require a licensed engineer to participate, simply promoting yourself as an engineer, or calling yourself a professional engineer, for a project within that state could technically be illegal.

2.  Many states have exclusions for various types/sizes of projects - small residential for instance - where a licensed engineer isn't required.  In this sense, perhaps they aren't violating any law.

3.  There are ethics codes out there that any licensed engineer is expected to follow.  These are not simply suggested rules but many times are actually codified into the engineering practice acts of each state.  There were some answers I saw on the site that were definitely questionable as to good engineering practice (see the above example by port125).  In this case - providing design services for fee when you don't actually have good knowledge of the structural conditions, loadings, etc. is not practicing to the standard of care.  

4.  The engineer's first priority is to protect the public health and safety.  Item 3 above certainly doesn't do that.

 

RE: Free structural engineering!

This rubs me wrong.  They may not be in direct violation of any specific canon in either the NSPE or ASCE Ethics Codes that says not to provide advice on-line but I believe that they are not upholding the integrity of the profession or servicing the needs of the client in an ethical manner.

I believe that you could probably make a strong arguement that they are not putting the health, safety, and welfare of the public paramount in their actions in accordance with the first canon of each organization's Ethics codes.  Telling someone you can move a post based on the assumption that the engineer (btw, it was probably never actually designed by an engineer anyway if it's residential) probably over designed it initially is not making sure that the safety of the person performing that work or using that structure is the highest priority.  What if that post was added after the engineer designed the beam because the beam was failing due to overloading or special circumstances to begin with?  What if it wasn't OK to move it...who is going to answer for it?

I suppose you could also make the arguement that they are not accurately displaying their credentials and representing their experience and background...notice you can't get a first/last name to check their license criteria on the website.  I believe that this violates the NSPE code under section II. Rules of Practice, number 5.  They are stating they are licensed or experienced professionals but not allowing the public to verify this.  Someone please correct me if you found a way to verify their license with each state...I could not.

Personally, I know that if I gave this type of advice freely and something happened to a person who followed it, I would feel terrible.  And it could easily happen in this situation...after all, it was an 'expert' who answered their question so why shouldn't they follow it!
 

RE: Free structural engineering!

Structural20036...

To follow on to JAE's excellent points, I would encourage you to read your state's engineering law and rules of practice.  You will likely find that there are several violations of your state's practice act.  Even if they seem relatively minor to you, they whittle away at the professionalism and perception of our profession, thus reducing the stature of an engineer in the eyes of the public....if it goes much lower, why have laws at all?

This is not the way engineering was intended to be practiced nor should it be practiced this way.  We are a "hands on" profession...both by necessity and statute.  In this case, the "client" doesn't necessarily (and most likely does not) have the expertise to make site observations to pass on to the engineer.  

The engineer can provide as many caveats as he would like in his answer....the problem is that, as a professional engineer, you cannot disclaim negligence.  Our services are sometimes difficult enough when we can directly see the issues...image how poor that service would be if the engineer cannot see or know of the issues.  Ignorance is not bliss in this case.  Ignorance is dangerous.

RE: Free structural engineering!

Let them fail. Just hope someone doesn't get hurt.  

RE: Free structural engineering!

Lets say I have cancer.  I am NOT going to take the recommendations of some newspaper doctor too seriously since he has never seen me, my records, X-rays, etc.  He might have a few suggestions I need to check out - but that is about it.

Sort of the same w/ Engineers.

Ladies and gentlemen - we need to promote the professionalism of our  profession - not cheapen it but letting guys like this violate probably every state rule and code of ethics!!!

RE: Free structural engineering!

Quote:

Lets say I have cancer.  I am NOT going to take the recommendations of some newspaper doctor too seriously...

http://www.justanswer.com/oncology-topics-cancer/questions.html

You may not, but how many of these people are?  

Is this OK for doctors and lawyers, but not engineers? Or is it OK for software engineers and HVAC engineers, but not structural engineers?

RE: Free structural engineering!

Gee.....  

Could this be another example of ... "You get what you pay for?"

ponder  banghead

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
http://mmcengineering.tripod.com
 

RE: Free structural engineering!

YoungTurk...it is not OK for any of the licensed engineering disciplines as those who are licensed are obligated to protect the health, safety, and (in some states) the welfare of the public.  "Software Engineers" are not usually licensed and have no duty to protect the public by law, but hopefully they feel ethically bound to do so.

RE: Free structural engineering!

someone should sign up and ask one of the scabs to sign and seal a drawing, or something, see if that changes their answer.  

RE: Free structural engineering!

As a bit of a libertarian, this situation vexes me.  On the one hand you have two people engaging in commerce.  The one is providing technical information (right or wrong) and the other is a buyer.  If the buyer wishes to get a cursory opinion regarding a beam size, why shouldn't he?  If he wishes to modify his house based off of an anonymous website, we have permitting requirements that will at least forestall such ill conceived plans.  In PA we have to get a permit to replace our roofs and windows and even the barbers have licenses.  However, you can go to a vitamin store and get a person with unknown credentials to recommend all sorts of unpronounceable ingredients for ingestion.  Why are we assumed to be stupid consumers when it comes to getting our hair cut and choosing a doctor?

On the other hand we need to protect the public welfare.  We can't have some jack of all trades designing high rises and shopping malls.

As for professionalism, that is earned by the individual it is not handed to the trade because of a license.

RE: Free structural engineering!

I looked for the question posted by Port125 and wasn't able to find it.. maybe it was taken down? Maybe it was meant to be representative of his/her take on the questions being asked? Don't know.

Looking through the site - it appears that there are at least 2 more structure folks answering questions. One advertises that he's retired, the other with 11 years experience.

Has anybody gone through this process yet? I keep wondering/hoping there are serious disclaimers about not building anything based on the answers...

RE: Free structural engineering!

Teguci...when you figure out the difference between a trade and a profession, I think you'll answer your own quandary.

There are times when the general public must be protected from their own ignorance and, in some cases, their own stupidity.  As I'm sure you've noticed (and have probably done this yourself) the better answer to give an ignorant question (which might not appear ignorant on the surface, but is proved so by lack of supplementary consideration) is no answer.

RE: Free structural engineering!

Since there is some confusion, I believe that port125's "sample" from the website was facetious and not actually a direct quote of a response from the website.

RE: Free structural engineering!

This was a blurb in some of the answers:

"Before we continue I'd like to point out that a Professional Engineer's standard of care typically includes a site visit to assess field conditions and get an overall understanding of the structure. This can obviously not be accomplished through the internet. The information provided here is meant for informational purposes only (general sizing and budgeting) and is based on the information provided by you. The information should be verified by a professional engineer who can visit the site to ensure that potentially important information has not been overlooked or omitted."

I think that covers the standard of care problem.  Personally, I'd rather see the "expert" not go into a calculation, and just explain how that's not how the profession works (ie, asking for this stuff over the internet for $30), and instead offer a road map on how it's supposed to be accomplished.  But the whole site appears to be geared towards "why pay hundreds when you can log on from the comfort of your home for a fraction of the cost."    

On the flip side, I do see answers there that don't provide any sort of calculation at all, and are generalized responses like "in certain situations, one could run into a problem with that modification, some of which are A, B, and C, and regardless of the case, this type of professional should be called to have them look at it", or "the manufacturer should be contacted with this question."  That's more of the road map that this should be limited to.  
 

RE: Free structural engineering!

I saw more than one person looking for this. I mostly paraphrased his response.

The direct link to the page was not working but the actual question title is
"I would like to relocate a lally column in my basement."
from 03/16/12

RE: Free structural engineering!

Has anyone heard from their respective licensing board? I haven't even received an acknowledgement.

RE: Free structural engineering!

bb...same here.  No response from them.  I'll try again.

RE: Free structural engineering!

Ron - Perhaps we have to wait until our respective boards to convene. However, I suspect this is something most boards don't want to deal with. The information superhighway has lead us to uncharted territory, in the legal sense.

RE: Free structural engineering!

bb...you're probably right about the board and definitely right about the boards not wanting to deal with it.

RE: Free structural engineering!

I got a response from my board - basically saying they agreed that it was questionable but stating that without evidence of a project within the state they couldn't really act.
 

RE: Free structural engineering!

Great post. At the end of the day, those of us with a high "standard of care", will be more mindful and undoubtedly take the time to question this sort of practice when we are faced with it. Thank goodness you didn't have to deal with this going on at your work. That could be awkward and a legal mess.

These guys are likely to be the same guys who sell their signature and seal for fees half that of engineers who actually perform the work.

Although, JAE, I agree with the board's response. Legally, I doubt they can do much with those ambiguous posts. However, if they had the same attitude as law-enforcement chasing child pornography, we may be able to pressure these folks to stop.

I wonder what percentage of these 'engineers' are ignorant of their ways or knowingly violating ethics and laws.

 

"Structural engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot..."...ah...screw it, we don't know what the heck we are doing.

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