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Is Earthwork Consulting Beneficial 4
- Thread starter guneng
- Start date
I am not a contractor, nor do I knnow what they would pay for.
As a civil eng. who does a lot of grade design and review, I can tell you the single biggest source of error in Probable Cost Opinions in site work is undoubtedly cut:fill analysis.
Also, in my experience, the advent of computer software has only made it easier to perform cut:fills. It has not reduced the often substantial errors. I am not sure why.
The question is would I sub out that portion of my design? If you are a licensed PE or PLS, insured and you could convince me you were finally the person who could do cut:fills accurately, then yes I would.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve
As a civil eng. who does a lot of grade design and review, I can tell you the single biggest source of error in Probable Cost Opinions in site work is undoubtedly cut:fill analysis.
Also, in my experience, the advent of computer software has only made it easier to perform cut:fills. It has not reduced the often substantial errors. I am not sure why.
The question is would I sub out that portion of my design? If you are a licensed PE or PLS, insured and you could convince me you were finally the person who could do cut:fills accurately, then yes I would.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve
The reason some contractors don't do their own earthwork is not because they don't own software, but because they can't afford to keep a full time skilled person on the payroll. It is more cost effective to hire a consultant. I believe it is something that contractors need, but you will be competing with other consultants for the work.
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2
- #5
Dirtmaster
Civil/Environmental
I have been making my living as a "sitework" consultant
for twenty years.
I not only do earthwork studies, but do site utilities
pavement, curb, and, sometimes landscape takeoffs.
I don't know what software or how much experience you have.
Before I started the consulting service I did my takeoffs
manually. Then, a friend and I wrote a program in 1980 for a Radio Shack Model I toy computer.
(Although crude by today's tandards it was functional)
My first encounter with digitizer based takeoffs was with the Agtek system in 1985. At that time is was a real piece of crap.
I then went to Paydirt. A very accuarte program, but lacking
in funcionality.
When the Windows environment came along, Paydirt failed
to perform adequately, so I continued to use the DOS based
system for several more years.
Now enter the Quest system. A little clumsly at first as well as some accuracey issuies.
What I am leading up to here is:
Whatever system you use, satisfy yourself that it is as
accurate as a manual takeoff. One way to do this is to do
the same job about eight times. Each time rotate the plan
on the tablet 45 degrees for each takeoff. Regardless of
the program used the quantities should be close each time.
Remember, you will never get exactly the same answer twice.
Practice...Practice...Practice
Try to practice on plans that someone has done. See how your
numbers compare with theirs. If they are not close, one of
you made a mistake (either human or software)
When I train estimators, one of the first things I stress
is that I can teach anyone to trace contours, parking lots
building pads, etc. But I do not have the time to teach
plan reading. Face it, most plans come with errors. I you cannot spot an error (elev 1029 when it should have been 1092), your estimate will be wrong. Use the 3-D, the cross-section, and cut fill reports to check for data entry errors.
A contractor will miss a job if his quantities are too high,
he may go broke if they are too low.
for twenty years.
I not only do earthwork studies, but do site utilities
pavement, curb, and, sometimes landscape takeoffs.
I don't know what software or how much experience you have.
Before I started the consulting service I did my takeoffs
manually. Then, a friend and I wrote a program in 1980 for a Radio Shack Model I toy computer.
(Although crude by today's tandards it was functional)
My first encounter with digitizer based takeoffs was with the Agtek system in 1985. At that time is was a real piece of crap.
I then went to Paydirt. A very accuarte program, but lacking
in funcionality.
When the Windows environment came along, Paydirt failed
to perform adequately, so I continued to use the DOS based
system for several more years.
Now enter the Quest system. A little clumsly at first as well as some accuracey issuies.
What I am leading up to here is:
Whatever system you use, satisfy yourself that it is as
accurate as a manual takeoff. One way to do this is to do
the same job about eight times. Each time rotate the plan
on the tablet 45 degrees for each takeoff. Regardless of
the program used the quantities should be close each time.
Remember, you will never get exactly the same answer twice.
Practice...Practice...Practice
Try to practice on plans that someone has done. See how your
numbers compare with theirs. If they are not close, one of
you made a mistake (either human or software)
When I train estimators, one of the first things I stress
is that I can teach anyone to trace contours, parking lots
building pads, etc. But I do not have the time to teach
plan reading. Face it, most plans come with errors. I you cannot spot an error (elev 1029 when it should have been 1092), your estimate will be wrong. Use the 3-D, the cross-section, and cut fill reports to check for data entry errors.
A contractor will miss a job if his quantities are too high,
he may go broke if they are too low.
- Thread starter
- #6
Thank you Dirtmaster. Your post is the one I've been waiting for. I've been in this business for about 2 years working as an Estimating Engineer. My mentor has taught me more than I can express to prepare for what I'm going to do. I am using the latest and greatest Agtek Earthwork 3d and Highway 3d and feel that I have mastered them...they're not too difficult anyway. I'm now trying to research a clientele base so I can get the ball rolling. One thing I'm concerned about is the pricing. What's too high...what's too low. Once I get that figured I'll be well on my way. Once again thank you for the input.
Dirtmaster
Civil/Environmental
I base my fee upon the estimated time it will take
me to do the takeoff. Since I have been doing sitework
estimates since 1967, I can (usually) look at the plan
and almost imediately know how long the estimate will take.
Base your fee on what you think your time, your hardware,
and your software are worth. One hundred dollars per hour
seems to be the norm.
One thing to remember is that most contractors will think
you are overcharging them on every job. You must make them
understand that you are not just a computer input device.
You are bringing knowledge and experience into the equation just as he is relying on his experience in earthmoving (etc)
to convince his client that he is the contractor for the
project at hand.
I do not offer discounts if the contractor/engineer supplies me with CAD files. Yes there is some time saved, but I still revue the plan extensively looking for errors and value engineering opertunities. Since the paper plan was created from the CAD file, any error on the paper plan is also in the CAD file. An elevation error imported from the CAD file creates the same volume error as if it were digitized in error.
P.S. I am located in NW GA, in what part of the world are you located
me to do the takeoff. Since I have been doing sitework
estimates since 1967, I can (usually) look at the plan
and almost imediately know how long the estimate will take.
Base your fee on what you think your time, your hardware,
and your software are worth. One hundred dollars per hour
seems to be the norm.
One thing to remember is that most contractors will think
you are overcharging them on every job. You must make them
understand that you are not just a computer input device.
You are bringing knowledge and experience into the equation just as he is relying on his experience in earthmoving (etc)
to convince his client that he is the contractor for the
project at hand.
I do not offer discounts if the contractor/engineer supplies me with CAD files. Yes there is some time saved, but I still revue the plan extensively looking for errors and value engineering opertunities. Since the paper plan was created from the CAD file, any error on the paper plan is also in the CAD file. An elevation error imported from the CAD file creates the same volume error as if it were digitized in error.
P.S. I am located in NW GA, in what part of the world are you located
- Thread starter
- #8
I'm located in Southern California but moving over to Tucson AZ in a couple of weeks. Thank you for the information you have provided. Most people aren't willing to give out any information...I don't understand why. I have talked to a couple of people that break out the pricing per acre or per lot. Generally $20-25/acre or $10/15 per lot. Since this is only going to start out as a part-time endeavor I needed to know if I would be sinking or swimming from the start. Do you have assurity bonding and insurance in case any mistakes are made? I have heard this can be very expensive....but if your thorough enough you shouldn't need it. I eventually want to get into the GPS model building and know that I would definately need the bonding and insurance at that point. One last question...how busy do you stay? I feel the market will continue to grow as it has in the past years.
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1
- #9
SteveWarfle
Computer
Our company provides software to excavating and utility contractors. We have at least 8 or 9 companies that I know of that do take-offs for hire using our software. From having conversations with them, it seems like a lucrative business. But remember, timing is everything. It seems they have too much work or too little work, depending on what day they call. But once you get the trust of a few key clients, you are on your way. The internet has made for a great tool to recruit customers.
As for bonding, most companies have their lawyers write a liability waiver. I would think this would be more difficult with preparing surface models for machine control or staking points, although our software is used commercially for this. I will ask the guys that do this and report back.
I think Dirtmaster is about right with the 100 dollar an hour estimate. Remember that there is a cost of time in marketing.
Determining whether to offer a discount for CAD import should come in time. See what the quality of the plans you get are. CAD imports can cut the tracing time down from hours to minutes. Our software makes import easy when contours are elevated polylines, and even allows elevations to be assigned quickly. But you can't assume that a CAD file is going to be perfect, and so any discount would be a gamble. One other thing about CAD import is that when an import is finished, you have to take time to learn about the job, unlike when digitizing, where you learn about it during import.
That said, if I was a developer and the firm I hired wouldn't release the CAD files to the contractors, I wouldn't hire them. This is a trend that is coming and not a minute too soon.
Finally, remember that what you are selling needs to be spelled out clearly. Stripping, demolition, Cut by strata, Structural vs. Non-structural fill, Topsoil respread, asphalt, sub-base, etc..........spell out what you are taking off first, and put a package together that spells it out in both numbers and graphics (X-sections, 3D's, plan view shading, etc.)
Good luck on your business. If you want to discuss it further, call me at 877-746-7483.
Take Care
Steve Warfle
InSite Software Inc.
As for bonding, most companies have their lawyers write a liability waiver. I would think this would be more difficult with preparing surface models for machine control or staking points, although our software is used commercially for this. I will ask the guys that do this and report back.
I think Dirtmaster is about right with the 100 dollar an hour estimate. Remember that there is a cost of time in marketing.
Determining whether to offer a discount for CAD import should come in time. See what the quality of the plans you get are. CAD imports can cut the tracing time down from hours to minutes. Our software makes import easy when contours are elevated polylines, and even allows elevations to be assigned quickly. But you can't assume that a CAD file is going to be perfect, and so any discount would be a gamble. One other thing about CAD import is that when an import is finished, you have to take time to learn about the job, unlike when digitizing, where you learn about it during import.
That said, if I was a developer and the firm I hired wouldn't release the CAD files to the contractors, I wouldn't hire them. This is a trend that is coming and not a minute too soon.
Finally, remember that what you are selling needs to be spelled out clearly. Stripping, demolition, Cut by strata, Structural vs. Non-structural fill, Topsoil respread, asphalt, sub-base, etc..........spell out what you are taking off first, and put a package together that spells it out in both numbers and graphics (X-sections, 3D's, plan view shading, etc.)
Good luck on your business. If you want to discuss it further, call me at 877-746-7483.
Take Care
Steve Warfle
InSite Software Inc.
Dirtmaster
Civil/Environmental
Steve makes some very good points, the legal waiver, the graphics, the items included in the estimate, shrink/swell factors, etc. The least accurate of all the items being estimated is the sub-strata. In our area the owner is seldom interested enough in the volume of the sub-strata as he is interested in whether rock, shale, water etc. is/are present. Therefore he NEVER invests in an adequate number of soil borings or sismic explorations for an accurate volume estimate. To be reasonably accurate the project would have to explored on a fifty foot (or smaller) grid or profile. Most owners I have encountered take the attitude that the exploration may be more expensive than the actual work required by the sub-strata problems. Every software vendor thinks his system is the best, and it may be the most accurate in some cases but a competitor's system may be better suited for another site. I always tell my clients to take the sub strata volumes with a grain of salt.
As for liability, I have been doing sitework estimates for a long time and have not been proven wrong once. As long as the topographc survey, plan scale, and proposed grades are all prepared accurately, the cut/fill, the disturbed area (clearing), etc. will be extremely accurately.
Also, have your client fill out a work order (fill in the blank type prepared by you) indicating all the work he expects you to perform. Let him determine the shrink/swell factor you are to use or give him "raw" numbers without any adjustments, depth of stripping and whether he wants to strip both the cut area and the fill area or only one or the other (also give him the option of stripping the cut & fill areas to differing depths. Deep fill areas may requiring deeper stripping than the high ground.)and any sub-strata volumes he requires.
Of course one of the most important factors in determnng the cost of moving earth is haul distance. Make sure your software deliniates the cut/fill areas and has the ability to determne the haul distance based on the actual route, not the shortest distance between cut & fill areas.
Your program should allow you to digitize the preferred haul route, but if it does not, look at the "short haul" report and then measure the actual haul route distance from center of mass (cut) to center of mass (fill).
As for liability, I have been doing sitework estimates for a long time and have not been proven wrong once. As long as the topographc survey, plan scale, and proposed grades are all prepared accurately, the cut/fill, the disturbed area (clearing), etc. will be extremely accurately.
Also, have your client fill out a work order (fill in the blank type prepared by you) indicating all the work he expects you to perform. Let him determine the shrink/swell factor you are to use or give him "raw" numbers without any adjustments, depth of stripping and whether he wants to strip both the cut area and the fill area or only one or the other (also give him the option of stripping the cut & fill areas to differing depths. Deep fill areas may requiring deeper stripping than the high ground.)and any sub-strata volumes he requires.
Of course one of the most important factors in determnng the cost of moving earth is haul distance. Make sure your software deliniates the cut/fill areas and has the ability to determne the haul distance based on the actual route, not the shortest distance between cut & fill areas.
Your program should allow you to digitize the preferred haul route, but if it does not, look at the "short haul" report and then measure the actual haul route distance from center of mass (cut) to center of mass (fill).
I would add one additional criteria for being able to prepare a good estimate. You need to be well versed in construction methods. It's one thing to be able to do take-offs from a plan, but quite another to know how everything fits together. The waterlines, valves and hydrants, the sewerlines and manholes, all the utilities. How will everything be sequenced? Do you actually have to think about these things?? Sure, you can add the quantities all up and attach a unit cost to them, or man/equipment-hours and rates, but the experience and knowledge that dirtmaster speaks of is a very, very valuable asset and that's what will bring your clients back (well, along with a few winning bids that everyone makes money on, that kinda helps too..).
As an engineer, I've done many so-called "engineer's estimates" over the years, but now starting five or six years ago an estimator opened up for business just up the road from me (not bad for a small NE town) and I've really come to trust his work. And I'll use him now more often than not. He also doesn't mind that I call and pick his brain a bit when I'm costing various options out.
I also like the questions he's come back at me with. He picks at my details not just because he likes to pick at the engineers work (he does!) but also because I want him to. I'll be the first to admit that in the rush to get a set of plans out for a deadline I've ended up with some outdated typical details.
As an engineer, I've done many so-called "engineer's estimates" over the years, but now starting five or six years ago an estimator opened up for business just up the road from me (not bad for a small NE town) and I've really come to trust his work. And I'll use him now more often than not. He also doesn't mind that I call and pick his brain a bit when I'm costing various options out.
I also like the questions he's come back at me with. He picks at my details not just because he likes to pick at the engineers work (he does!) but also because I want him to. I'll be the first to admit that in the rush to get a set of plans out for a deadline I've ended up with some outdated typical details.
Dirtmaster
Civil/Environmental
to: ptmoss
AMEN
ptmoss makes another good point.
Basically, if you can't do it, don't teach others.
What this means is, experience in the field is necessary
to accuarately estimate a sitework project.
Using "canned" priceing can lead to total disaster.
You must understand the sequence, the conflicts,
and the target dates to accurately estimate a project.
Every project can use input from another "expert".
However, sooner or later, the project must be built.
So, "plan ahead", "get your ducks" in a row, or use whatever
cliche you wish, but be sure you meet the the specs of the
locals, and most of all (my favorite clche) "plan your work
and work your plan"
AMEN
ptmoss makes another good point.
Basically, if you can't do it, don't teach others.
What this means is, experience in the field is necessary
to accuarately estimate a sitework project.
Using "canned" priceing can lead to total disaster.
You must understand the sequence, the conflicts,
and the target dates to accurately estimate a project.
Every project can use input from another "expert".
However, sooner or later, the project must be built.
So, "plan ahead", "get your ducks" in a row, or use whatever
cliche you wish, but be sure you meet the the specs of the
locals, and most of all (my favorite clche) "plan your work
and work your plan"
Guys - I stumbled upon this thread at the right time. I've been thinking about doing this very thing recently. I'd like to pick the brain of someone who's 6 months to a year ahead of where I am. Any info would be much appreciated. I can be reached at therolans at earthlink.net.
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1
- #14
guneng,
I stumbled upon your thread as I use eng-tips to find interesting answers to interesting problems. I believe I have talked to you on the phone when you contacted me about our services earlier this year. I thought you had a real project in mind and I figured from your questions that you might be doing some research in this business. I wish you had asked me upfront so that I could have helped you more.
Anyway, I'm an earthwork estimator and have been doing this for the last six years now. I welcome you in this field and feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
I was also thinking that as there are quite a few people involved in our line of work and several more wishing to enter this line of business, why don't we form a more organized networking group on this forum. We can defintely learn from each other, can't we.
Thanks.
I stumbled upon your thread as I use eng-tips to find interesting answers to interesting problems. I believe I have talked to you on the phone when you contacted me about our services earlier this year. I thought you had a real project in mind and I figured from your questions that you might be doing some research in this business. I wish you had asked me upfront so that I could have helped you more.
Anyway, I'm an earthwork estimator and have been doing this for the last six years now. I welcome you in this field and feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
I was also thinking that as there are quite a few people involved in our line of work and several more wishing to enter this line of business, why don't we form a more organized networking group on this forum. We can defintely learn from each other, can't we.
Thanks.
Interesting to see so many other earthworks consultants out there. It sometimes seems we are few and far between. It is definately a good service to provide, and I'd suggest also looking at working with more than just grading/paving contractors. For the most part, though the above posts have it.
I've been in the business for a few years now, and once you get your name out, there is usually more than ample work available.
I've been in the business for a few years now, and once you get your name out, there is usually more than ample work available.
A quick FYI regarding this interesting thread:
A list of active earthwork quantity takeoff and/or GPS grade modeling service providers is posted at The listed service providers all use various versions of AGTEK software and they may be a useful source of information and networking for the consulting "niche" under discussion here.
Michael Cope
"Authorized AGTEK Software Training"
A list of active earthwork quantity takeoff and/or GPS grade modeling service providers is posted at The listed service providers all use various versions of AGTEK software and they may be a useful source of information and networking for the consulting "niche" under discussion here.
Michael Cope
"Authorized AGTEK Software Training"
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