We are receiving a number of requests from homeowners and small businesses to look at settlement cracks, roof structure failures, etc. They are asking for a structural engineering evaluation. My question is how much is a reasonable charge for the initial site visit?
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How much to charge? 6
- Thread starter smwpe
- Start date
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civilperson
Structural
$500 retainer with an hourly fee schedule.
MiketheEngineer
Structural
Depending on where you are - $100 to 150 per hour including drive time
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I agree with civilperson....you need a retainer on any residential work. They will often not pay if they don't like the answer.
Attached is a "sanitized" retainer agreement that we use. You can adapt it and attach your standard general conditions.
Good luck. Don't forget that homeowners are emotional. Get them to engage an attorney if you think litigation is a potential, then work through the attorney to protect the work product (and to some degree, your billing!)
Ron
Attached is a "sanitized" retainer agreement that we use. You can adapt it and attach your standard general conditions.
Good luck. Don't forget that homeowners are emotional. Get them to engage an attorney if you think litigation is a potential, then work through the attorney to protect the work product (and to some degree, your billing!)
Ron
good point Ron, would rather work for an attorney than many homeowners. However, be careful as they tend to sue and you will be named in the suit. Don't skimp on the work either as you will have to defend whatever you did in court at some point in the future.
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You might want to reconsider doing this work, unless you are ready for some non-engineering activity.
Consider: Why would they hire you? Because they are unhappy with what they have (settltement, cracking, etc).
Thus they want a report from you to present to someone (lawyer, builder, previous owner, real estate agent, etc) so they can either get relief or sue someone. Thus at sometime you'll be in court defending your report.
If your reports say all is well, you probably won't hear from them again - unless they hire another engineer who contradicts you. At which time you'll be defending yourself again.
Make sure your fee covers some time for this.
Just be careful, the fee you get may not outweigh the grief you get. .. . . I've been there.
Good luck.
Consider: Why would they hire you? Because they are unhappy with what they have (settltement, cracking, etc).
Thus they want a report from you to present to someone (lawyer, builder, previous owner, real estate agent, etc) so they can either get relief or sue someone. Thus at sometime you'll be in court defending your report.
If your reports say all is well, you probably won't hear from them again - unless they hire another engineer who contradicts you. At which time you'll be defending yourself again.
Make sure your fee covers some time for this.
Just be careful, the fee you get may not outweigh the grief you get. .. . . I've been there.
Good luck.
- Thread starter
- #8
Your original question: "My question is how much is a reasonable charge for the initial site visit?"
I don't think there should be any charge for the initial site visit. I assume that the purpose of the site visit is to determine the scope in order to make a proposal to do the work. You also should not present a solution or free advice during the initial site visit.
Your proposal to do the work should then include a request for a retainer should the client choose to contract with you.
We do not normally get paid for making proposals.
I don't think there should be any charge for the initial site visit. I assume that the purpose of the site visit is to determine the scope in order to make a proposal to do the work. You also should not present a solution or free advice during the initial site visit.
Your proposal to do the work should then include a request for a retainer should the client choose to contract with you.
We do not normally get paid for making proposals.
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- #10
bimr, I understand your comment, but don't necessarily agree with it as a blanket policy. I do a lot of residential work for homeowners and architects for stormwater, septic system and other site-related issues. If I'm going out to look at a property for an architect or other professional I've worked for on a multitude of projects over the years, then I never charge if they don't get the job unless they tell me up front to charge them regardless of how it goes (a rare occurrence, but it has happened).
If a homeowner calls me to find out "how much does a septic design cost", I'll give them a range, tell them what additional fees to expect and then if they're still standing I'll follow up with a written proposal, no charge of course if they don't hire me as I did no actual work for them.
If a homeowner calls and describes a problem to me where I actually need to visit their house/property, then I tell them their is a fee for that initial site visit, never less than $150. About half decide they're not that interested or mention another engineer that didn't charge them for the same thing. I don't work for them because they're just calling around either (1) trying to find the lowest price, or (2) trying to get free information. #2 happened constantly the first 10 years or so I was on my own before I was comfortable enough to require a fee.
Now, when I do go out and meet with someone, they're getting the benefit of meeting and talking with an engineer. For residential work, when meeting with a homeowner, there's just no way I can go meet with someone and not educate them in some way about the problems they're experiencing or the design work they need to get accomplished.
Do I end up charging these people if I don't do anything further, or if they hire someone else? Not usually, but when I do they have always paid and they don't complain about it. If I end up getting the work then I'm always compensated for that time. These people, though, are all serious about discussing their project with me and understand that there's a benefit to them in paying me to come out. And frankly, when I don't charge them, they remember that and appreciate it, and it often gets me other work down the road.
The thing is, is I'm in a small town, surrounded by small towns (1000-5000 pop.) and I work alone. The firms with 5-10 employees and more all do the free proposal thing. Personally, I use it as a way to cut out some of the chafe that I'd just be wasting my time on. The other thing too, is I only work hourly, I very rarely work for lump sum fees. So I do like to have the ability to charge when I'm working. And as I said earlier, I believe there's a distinct value to my time spent meeting with someone and discussing their project. Also, with the permitting requirements for site-related projects these days it has become more and more difficult to accurately estimate the time needed when there might be multiple permits required for a simple residential project.
If a homeowner calls me to find out "how much does a septic design cost", I'll give them a range, tell them what additional fees to expect and then if they're still standing I'll follow up with a written proposal, no charge of course if they don't hire me as I did no actual work for them.
If a homeowner calls and describes a problem to me where I actually need to visit their house/property, then I tell them their is a fee for that initial site visit, never less than $150. About half decide they're not that interested or mention another engineer that didn't charge them for the same thing. I don't work for them because they're just calling around either (1) trying to find the lowest price, or (2) trying to get free information. #2 happened constantly the first 10 years or so I was on my own before I was comfortable enough to require a fee.
Now, when I do go out and meet with someone, they're getting the benefit of meeting and talking with an engineer. For residential work, when meeting with a homeowner, there's just no way I can go meet with someone and not educate them in some way about the problems they're experiencing or the design work they need to get accomplished.
Do I end up charging these people if I don't do anything further, or if they hire someone else? Not usually, but when I do they have always paid and they don't complain about it. If I end up getting the work then I'm always compensated for that time. These people, though, are all serious about discussing their project with me and understand that there's a benefit to them in paying me to come out. And frankly, when I don't charge them, they remember that and appreciate it, and it often gets me other work down the road.
The thing is, is I'm in a small town, surrounded by small towns (1000-5000 pop.) and I work alone. The firms with 5-10 employees and more all do the free proposal thing. Personally, I use it as a way to cut out some of the chafe that I'd just be wasting my time on. The other thing too, is I only work hourly, I very rarely work for lump sum fees. So I do like to have the ability to charge when I'm working. And as I said earlier, I believe there's a distinct value to my time spent meeting with someone and discussing their project. Also, with the permitting requirements for site-related projects these days it has become more and more difficult to accurately estimate the time needed when there might be multiple permits required for a simple residential project.
MiketheEngineer
Structural
Never do work for a lawyer. In ten minutes they can write a letter that will make the next 2-4 years of your life miserable.
I haven't read Ron's proposal, yet. In my proposals, I include litigation rates at nearly double my normal hourly rate.
Also, in some jurisdictions, you can be subpoenaed (sp?) with little or no money for transport and it doesn't cost the client other than the costs for serving.
As noted, it's best to work through a lawyer for payment as well as privilege.
Dik
Also, in some jurisdictions, you can be subpoenaed (sp?) with little or no money for transport and it doesn't cost the client other than the costs for serving.
As noted, it's best to work through a lawyer for payment as well as privilege.
Dik
MikeTheEngineer....I work for lawyers on most of my projects. They are usually great client buffers and can help you a lot. I'm sure you can have bad experiences, but in general, my experiences have been positive with lawyers.
Dik..we don't change our rates for litigation work...same rates, for the most part, since time is time. It can get a little uncomfortable when asked in court why you chose to charge more for litigation work than other work. The answer I have given in the past when I did charge more for the litigation was that I charge more because of the inconvenience of working through court schedules/dockets, being "on call" for trial, and dealing with the increased administration of the project for litigation.
In my experience, probably more consultants surcharge their fees for litigation than not. If you charge more for litigation, do it for all the tasks of that litigation, not just the testimony.
You're right about the compensation (or lack of) for subpoenae if you are not their "testifying or designated expert". In most cases, they can be compelled to pay for your time, but it depends on the case and jurisdiction. Most Judges don't like for attorneys to abuse their subpoena powers, and feel that consultants should be paid for their time. I've had to petition the court to get my fees before, but it worked.
Dik..we don't change our rates for litigation work...same rates, for the most part, since time is time. It can get a little uncomfortable when asked in court why you chose to charge more for litigation work than other work. The answer I have given in the past when I did charge more for the litigation was that I charge more because of the inconvenience of working through court schedules/dockets, being "on call" for trial, and dealing with the increased administration of the project for litigation.
In my experience, probably more consultants surcharge their fees for litigation than not. If you charge more for litigation, do it for all the tasks of that litigation, not just the testimony.
You're right about the compensation (or lack of) for subpoenae if you are not their "testifying or designated expert". In most cases, they can be compelled to pay for your time, but it depends on the case and jurisdiction. Most Judges don't like for attorneys to abuse their subpoena powers, and feel that consultants should be paid for their time. I've had to petition the court to get my fees before, but it worked.
I usually charge more because of the extra detail required and background information I like to provide as well as the added management for the work. A normal report may undergo two or three drafts whereas one headed to court will undergo half a dozen or more... I'm not a big advocate of keeping track of minutes (time) and charging for each and every one. I roll the added work into a higher hourly fee.
I clearly identify it on my standard fee schedule and have never been queried about it.
I've been 'clipped' twice by subpoenas, one a project I did but the problem was unrelated and not a valid claim; I had advised the client that it was not likely valid. The other was by a developer that I had prepared a report for.
Dik
I clearly identify it on my standard fee schedule and have never been queried about it.
I've been 'clipped' twice by subpoenas, one a project I did but the problem was unrelated and not a valid claim; I had advised the client that it was not likely valid. The other was by a developer that I had prepared a report for.
Dik
- Thread starter
- #15
Here is what's going on now. In my area (Florida West Coast) there seems to be new agencies created at the county level called "code enforcement". Maybe this is to get more cash flow into the budget.
We are receiving many calls from clients who, for example, say they built a two story house on a site that was approved for a garage two years ago and they need a stamped drawing to submit for approval, otherwise they will have to pay $200/day until the problem is resolved. Another is a client who enclosed her carport with an interior designer's drawings, and now is faced with another fine levied by her county.
There are two problems here:
- When we give them a quote of $500 retainer and $100 per hour plus travel expenses they gasp.
- Most potential clients are retired on fixed income.
We will always do our share of pro bono work, but this is exceeding our capacity.
Finally, we are trying to find a drafting service to handle this work load.
Appreciate and comments, good or bad.
We are receiving many calls from clients who, for example, say they built a two story house on a site that was approved for a garage two years ago and they need a stamped drawing to submit for approval, otherwise they will have to pay $200/day until the problem is resolved. Another is a client who enclosed her carport with an interior designer's drawings, and now is faced with another fine levied by her county.
There are two problems here:
- When we give them a quote of $500 retainer and $100 per hour plus travel expenses they gasp.
- Most potential clients are retired on fixed income.
We will always do our share of pro bono work, but this is exceeding our capacity.
Finally, we are trying to find a drafting service to handle this work load.
Appreciate and comments, good or bad.
smwpe....Yes, they gasp and then they start shopping your price. They'll find someone cheaper. As you noted, you can only do so much.
In my experience, most engineers give away a lot of time. We are generally not great at keeping up with our time on projects (at least not to a tenth of an hour like lawyers). Our clients never know this. Some of our "cheaper" competition will go in with a lower unit rate, no retainer, and bill more fees than we would have at higher rates.
I charge relatively high unit rates, but I also take pride in evaluating things rather quickly. I do that because of lots of experience. (Don't confuse a quick evaluation with a fast turnaround on reports!! I'm slow on that count and my repeat clients have even come to joke about it...not something I'm proud of, just the way I work).
As for Code Enforcement groups at the county level...well, they've been around a long time, but their scope of enforcement used to be whether or not the owner of an empty lot kept the weeds down or something similar. Since the advent of the Florida Building Code, the building departments have had to be more pro-active in all the aspects of their business (for instance, almost none of them inspected stucco lath or roofing under previous codes...now many of them do).
It's obviously not your problem that someone didn't go through an appropriate permitting process to get their house built. That should run your fee up even higher, because now you'll have to evaluate things you can't easily see (rebar in the footings, tensile ties, etc.).
It's sometimes a good decision to pass on a job. After all, you won't lose money on it nor will incur any liability.
In my experience, most engineers give away a lot of time. We are generally not great at keeping up with our time on projects (at least not to a tenth of an hour like lawyers). Our clients never know this. Some of our "cheaper" competition will go in with a lower unit rate, no retainer, and bill more fees than we would have at higher rates.
I charge relatively high unit rates, but I also take pride in evaluating things rather quickly. I do that because of lots of experience. (Don't confuse a quick evaluation with a fast turnaround on reports!! I'm slow on that count and my repeat clients have even come to joke about it...not something I'm proud of, just the way I work).
As for Code Enforcement groups at the county level...well, they've been around a long time, but their scope of enforcement used to be whether or not the owner of an empty lot kept the weeds down or something similar. Since the advent of the Florida Building Code, the building departments have had to be more pro-active in all the aspects of their business (for instance, almost none of them inspected stucco lath or roofing under previous codes...now many of them do).
It's obviously not your problem that someone didn't go through an appropriate permitting process to get their house built. That should run your fee up even higher, because now you'll have to evaluate things you can't easily see (rebar in the footings, tensile ties, etc.).
It's sometimes a good decision to pass on a job. After all, you won't lose money on it nor will incur any liability.
- Thread starter
- #17
Thanks Ron for your quick reply.
Maybe it is best to pass up these requests.
We had a young couple client who built a shed on their property, and were cited by the county.
We charged the minimum price and when I had the time to review the cost I found that two people traveling to the site who submitted their mileage costs of $.50/mile exceeded the budget.
The client was happy, the county was happy, the techs were happy and I will write this off as a pro bono.
Sam
Maybe it is best to pass up these requests.
We had a young couple client who built a shed on their property, and were cited by the county.
We charged the minimum price and when I had the time to review the cost I found that two people traveling to the site who submitted their mileage costs of $.50/mile exceeded the budget.
The client was happy, the county was happy, the techs were happy and I will write this off as a pro bono.
Sam
msquared48
Structural
"AS MUCH AS THE TRAFFIC WILL BEAR"
Upton Sinclair
"The Jungle"
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Upton Sinclair
"The Jungle"
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
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