Continue to Site

Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

  • Congratulations cowski on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

High voltage equipment in battery-powerd cars 1

Status
Not open for further replies.

CWR_Engineer

Civil/Environmental
Mar 27, 2018
7
Hi,

1/2 year ago, we discussed in Germany the elektical problems of electrical cars (Lithium - Ion - accu).

Specially BMW i3 and Tesla.

In the result, we can say there ist no chance for the fire-fighters to help passangers in destroyed cars after an accident.
The personal protective equipment of the fire-fighters is missing.
The safty of the passengers is not garantied.

5 weeks ago, the 9-page report ins gone to the German Government, to the german car observer office (KBA - Kraftfahrtbundesamt),
and to Tesla Germany.


Sincerely


.pdf Text: E-car Report in german


Write to Tesla:


Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,


anbei erhalten ein 9-Seitiges Dossier über die Sicherheit, besser gesagt die Unsicherheit, von E-Fahrzeugen mit Batterie.

Das Bundesverkehrsministerium hat das Gutachten vor zwei Wochen erhalten.

In der Zusammenfassung ist festzuhalten, daß ein sorgenfreier Betrieb von E-Fahrzeugen mit Lithiumbatterie in Deutschland nicht möglich ist.
Konsequenterweise müssten alle diesbezüglichen Betriebserlaubnisse vom KBA zurückgenommen werden.

Zusammenfassung

- Ersthelfer können an verunfallten E-Autos nicht agieren, ohne sich selbst zu gefährden.

- Eine ADR – Kennzeichnung von Batteriefahrzeugen wäre wünschenswert.

- Die Deutschen Feuerwehren besitzen derzeit keine zugelassene PSA, um an verunfallten E-Fahrzeugen Technische Hilfe leisten zu können.

- Die Deutschen Feuerwehren haben keine Beladung auf den Einsatzfahrzeugen, um brennende Lithiumbatterien zu löschen.

Es gibt noch eine Reihe weiterer Probleme:

Durch den Umstand, daß Batteriegestützte E-Fahrzeuge rollende Elektroanlagen sind,
benötigt die Feuerwehr zwingend Elektrofachkräfte im Einsatz (die bei Freiwilligen Feuerwehren bisher kaum vorhanden sind).
Zudem muß vom Chef der Feuerwehr (in Gemeinden i.d.R. der Ordnungsamtsleiter) der im Einsatzfall agierende Gruppenführer
schriftlich zur VEFK (Verantwortlichen Elektrofachkraft) ernannt werden.
Unterlässt er es, liegt ein Organisationsverschulden vor.
Das dürfte bei 99 % der Deutschen Gemeindeverwaltungen unbekannt sein.
Aufgund der Menge an Lithium-Batterien ist jedes Batteriegestützte E-Fahrzeug aus Gründen der Physik ein Gefahrguttransport.


MfG


In English (google translator):

Dear Sir or Madam,


Enclosed are a 9-page dossier on the safety, or rather the uncertainty, of -vehicles with battery.

The Federal Ministry of Transport received the report two weeks ago.

It should be noted in the summary that carefree operation of e-vehicles with lithium battery in Germany is not possible.
Consequently, all relevant operating permits would have to be withdrawn by the KBA.

Summary

- First responders can not act on accidental electric cars without endangering themselves.

- ADR labeling of battery vehicles would be desirable.

- The German fire brigades do not currently have approved PPE to provide technical assistance to accident-damaged electric vehicles.

- The German fire brigades have no load on the emergency vehicles to extinguish burning lithium batteries.

There are a number of other problems:

Due to the fact that battery-powered e-vehicles are rolling high power electrical systems,
the fire brigade necessarily requires electricians in action (which are so far hardly available in volunteer fire departments).
In addition, the chief of the fire brigade (in municipalities i.d.R., the 'Ordnungsamtsleiter' (= Chief of stuff))
must act in the case of a group leader be appointed in writing to the VEFK (responsible electrician).
If he fails, there is an organizational fault.
That should be unknown in 99% of the German municipalities.
Due to the amount of lithium batteries, every battery-powered e-vehicle is a dangerous goods transport for physics reasons.


Kind regards

-----------------------------------------

Now the questions:

What situation do you have in America ?
Whitch protective equipment (DC < 1'000 Volt) of the fire-fighters do you have ?

Max

 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

"So are fire fighters trained in chemical fires?"

Yes, LAFD probably gets a chemical fire every couple of months. Almost every large city has some chemical plants and storage

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Training material on alternative energy/hybrid vehicles has been made available to emergency responders for some time by many vehicle manufacturers.

For example, here are NFPA's links to available Toyota documentation for first responders, made available pretty much from the beginning of hybrid vehicle production
Other vehicle manufacture first responder information...
Airbag info is just as important to EMS personnel as some vehicles use capacitor banks to store energy to fire airbags, for example up to 90 seconds, after vehicle battery has been ripped out in the initial collision, for multi strike collisions.

Other manufacturers listed at NFPA..
As noted in the documentation above, there are many other need to know issues manufacturers have provided to EMS organizations. For example, when UHS steel first started being used in vehicles, the jaws of life and hydraultic cutters used by rescue had to be upgraded to handle the significantly higher strength.
 
As far as I've seen, vehicle battery packs are built-up from fairly small cells. Any explosions or fires should be relatively modest, although they may continue for some time. When Richard Hammond famously crashed the Rimac, one report mentioned that it continued burning for five days. Sequentially, cell after cell.

It's the exact opposite of a huge explosion.

 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor