Engineering as a commodity: Can we reverse the trend? 38

[lacajun]

--
From Engineering News-Record, 4/23/2012, Gary J. Tulacz:

This view is hurting the designers, too. "Engineering has always been a problem-solving profession," says Giorgio. "When you treat design like a commodity, it will be managed that way, without regard to the value-added capabilities of the top problem-solvers."

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[CharlesHeard]

I just finished engineering at University of Alberta last year.

I have been told Canadian engineering schools are far more regulated than American ones, information on how it is done is here:

http://www.engineerscanada.ca/e/pr_accreditation.cfm

(not that much information here, but basically the board has requirements on what needs to be taught to everyone and every few years will do an audit of each program)

As a result of this, it is generally accepted that an undergraduate engineering degree from one university is equal to any other one, with maybe some schools being regarded at superior at a speciality. Graduate programs become more specific, so which school/who your supervisor is will have a larger effect.

The non-science/math/engineering classes I took were Economics, Simple Modelling of Systems (business course), Behaviour in Organisations and Business law.

It would of been nice to be able to get in more humanities options, because I did thoroughly enjoy them, but I don't see where in our schedule they could be put without removing some key component or extending the degree.

Many people graduating from UAlberta take the FE exam right as they graduate because they want to work in the States. We were told by our Dean that we have between 95% and 100% pass rate every year. The consensus opinion of my friends who took it was an easy, but long test.

How different is this from a typical undergraduate engineering education in the US?

Also, maybe it is because my province is so industrially focussed, or because I haven't been around enough, but I don't see much devaluation of engineers and feel very well respected.

 

[SNORGY]

Maui,

You could be right about the sense of entitlement. I do see some of that in the younger and younger engineers on the Client (Producer) side of the O&G sector, who at the age of 25, are already "commanding" the lowly 45-55 year old EPC flunkies (like me) about what to do and when. I have even been on the receiving end of emails from E.I.T.'s (Engineers In Training) to the effect of:

(1) Addressed to my Project Manager: "...make sure he knows what he is doing because I don't think he does...".
(2) Addressed to me during a site visit when I asked the question, "Interesting. Any reason why the contractor would not have erected this free standing T-post holding up one cable tray and one 4-inch line in such a way as to center the column on the pile cap? I see several occurrences of this." To which, the response was, "Piles are never finished dead centre relative to where they are supposed to be, and the pipe support needs to be built in exact accordance with the drawings with respect to Northing and Easting, otherwise the pipe shoes don't end up being correctly positioned. Don't you know anything about construction?" To which, my response was to silently ponder what they do with the T-post when the pile is driven far enough off-centre that the misalignment exceeds the width of the column, and further, what do they do with the clamped-on pipe shoes in such a situation, and then just keep my stupid mouth shut and not ask any more questions for fear of making myself look even more stupid.


The above said, I have been pleasantly spoiled by the interns we have working for us (and me) now. They kick butt and hit the ball out of the park with evry task we give them; they are smart, hard working, pleasant and a pure energizing joy to have around. I certainly am enjoying teaching them as much as I can, despite the fact that I am apparently too stupid to be taken seriously by E.I.T.'s on the Client side.

 

[beej67]

Holy crap, David, where did your son go to school, so I know not to hire graduates from there?

I graduated from Georgia Tech and teach at Southern Polytechnic and both schools have much higher standards than that.

What needs to happen is other professions (doctors, wall street bankers) need to be commoditized MORE, not engineers less.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[zdas04]

With the day I'm having, they'd sue me for slander.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[graybeach]

I see the commoditization of engineering as the cause of poor quality, not the result of it. There are ever more layers of directors and managers who mostly focus on their next career move rather than on improving the quality of the work done by those they manage. It is these people who treat engineers as interchangeable cogs and low ball proposals. Meanwhile, people who are good at engineering get disgusted and end up jumping on the bloated management bandwagon themselves.
This is not going to change anytime soon. I predict that we will see more and more major engineering disasters before things get better for engineers. This is happening already.

 

[jgailla]

Star for you, JohnRBaker, for the trade school comment.

 

[GregLocock]

By that definition I went to trade school. Occasionally we beat Oxford in a boat race.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[SNORGY]

CharlesHeard,

Congratulations - and yes, those folks up here (Alberta) who are fresh out of university and who take the U.S. FE exam invariably pass it. One of the interns I had two years ago took it "just for something to do", and passed it without really studying much.

In general, I think Canadian universities are comparable to one another, and probably also could "hold their own" compared with most other schools around the globe.

I also agree that *Regulating* the profession (i.e., you can't even use the titles "professional engineer" or even "engineer" legally unless you actually are one or the other, or both) is a good thing.

Sadly, however, stick around in the work force for a while. Trust me, the devaluation and lack of respect shall come.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I also passed my professional licensing exam first time out, but then I DID go to school with a lot of Canadians, being that we were a 'Hockey School' ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[BJC]

David
I think you’re right on but the root cause in the 80s when greed became the mantra for more and more people. As budgets were cut and tuitions were raised engineering students changed. There was more that had never worked a day in their life and went to school on someone else’s (daddies) money. They would be lucky to find the cylinder head on their car much less take it off.
Getting the “riff-raff” out of engineering has also got rid of a lot of the problem solvers.
The same problem has affected lots of lots of majors. Colleges in order to stay open "Dumb down” and let more people in to get more money. They diluted the curriculum and lowered the admission standards for money.
If I had to borrow the money now to go to engineering school, I would instead go for an IBEW apprenticeship.
Students are looked at now a source of income for both colleges and lenders. Wheather or not they learn anything that can be useful to society is secondary.
In both the Northwest Territories Act and the Homestead act politians of the time saw the need for education and provided for the land grant colleges. They knew the value of education in "promoting the general welfare."
The most dramatic growth cycles in the US economy occurred when education was cheap. One was the GI Bill following WWII and concurrently the California higher education system. Other states with low cost college programs did as well.
Good colleges and universities were the geese that laid golden eggs. Now we have legislators and higher education boards looking for money. There are guts and feathers all over the table but they didn't find the golden egg.

 

[JohnRBaker]

When I enrolled in engineering school in the Fall of 1965, in-state tuition was $68 per term (3 terms per year).

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[zdas04]

By 1977 I paid $135/semester ($35/hour during the summer)

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[Maui]

In 1982 I paid $750/semester for state tuition.

Maui

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[SNORGY]

JohnRBaker,

If that is true, then recent major hockey tournaments bear witness to the fact that the American students appear to have learned as much or more than the Canadian students.

 

[cranky108]

If I had to do it again, and pay that much, I think I would hire a lawer for every class that missed a day. Make the professors attend and teach every day possible.

So university of Pheonix isen't the only school selling degrees. But at these costs, I am thinking i will send my daughter to an on-line school, and lose the university houseing costs.

 

[Twoballcane]

This topic is so redundant that we are now beating the dead horse’s soul. First, we cannot compare ourselves to doctors and lawyers because it takes longer and more money to become one than just getting your bachelors degree in engineering. On the flip side these two fields are having their own down turn (

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-37244113/5-reasons-not-to-get-a-law-degree/?tag=mwuser

and

http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/05/smallbusiness/doctors_broke/index.htm).

Engineering start salaries in the states with just a bachelor’s degree are still doing better than others (

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44008484/Highest_Paid_Bachelor_Degrees_of_2011?slide=11).

Now for the arguments of trade workers like electricians (

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/electricians.htm)

make an average medium salary of $49K which is less than the average start pays for engineers. As for being a commodity, we are at the mercy of the companies if we like it or not and has been this way for decades. I have yet to see any argument saying otherwise. Maui has argued that we should limit the number of graduates is a great idea, but the greed that breeds in the colleges is way too tempting for them not to gouge the system. As for duming down the students, I think is ludicrous (now that is a $20 word). Colleges live or die on their reputation and I cannot see how this is good for business.

To overcome being a commodity, I think if we can somehow band together and the “Engineers” copyright every design we create (instead of signing it over to the companies) or at least have some ownership of the design that we get royalties (just like singers) every time they use it in the market. I think this is the kind of leverage we are missing. Being just good worker bees will only get us so far, but being some how more financially connected to our designs may bring our craft to a higher level.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”

 

[moltenmetal]

CharlesHeard: CEAB accreditation ensures that all degree granting engineering institutions meet certain minimum standards in order for their graduates to be considered eligible for licensure after they gain the necessary work experience.

Don't for a moment confuse that with the notion that all Canadian engineering univerity degrees are considered to be EQUAL in the eyes of employers! They are not, and for good reason.

What I've seen first hand at my own alma mater is the retirement of virtually every single professor in my department who had any significant amount of industrial experience. When I went there, we had guys who had left industrial practice to become professors- it was these guys who taught the plant design course for instance. They have been replaced entirely by pure academic professors- fine researchers no doubt, some with an earnest desire to be good teachers too- but with no experience working as engineers. The amount of practical education the kids receive in school, aside from what they learn from their employers on work terms, has fallen sharply as a result. They're still smart, hard-working kids, with a strong knowledge of (most) of their fundamentals- or at least the majority of the ones we hire as co-ops and fresh grads are that way- they just need more training than they once did.

Again, it isn't the kids' fault that we're a commodity rather than a profession- I agree with SNORGY that it's our own fault.

SNORGY: what have I done about it? I work for (and own part of) a firm started by and controlled by employee engineers. We build what we design- we sell products rather than man-hours so we get paid properly for the value of our engineering. We share the profits of that work fairly amongst the people who earned them- not just to the engineers or the owners, but all employees in their due share. And we hire young people and train them, both as students and as fresh grads, so the next generation can get a foothold in the profession the way we did. I also counter the "shortage" propaganda with the real statistics whenever I can. Surprisingly, I find the people least willing to believe that engineers aren't in short supply are engineers themselves. You'd think we'd be the most analytical and rational people on this issue, but it turns out that the truth hurts too much for some people to be receptive to it. And I volunteer at my alma mater to teach part of a course, instead of feeding them a "grad gift" every year. I only wish they'd give me a tax receipt!

 

[Maui]

Twoballcane, copyrighting our designs or getting royalties on them is an interesting idea. I like it in concept. The problem that I envision is that companies would simply refuse to go along with it. The economy is so bad now that people are thrilled to find work, and gladly sign over any patent rights or other rights in thier work.

Since this happens often enough in these discussions, we really could use a new emoticon for beating a dead horse. Can anyone oblige?

Maui

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[berkshire]

Maui,
Like this?
B.E.

http://www.emotty.com/emoticon/172/beating-a-dead-horse

..

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[TGS4]