Engineering as a commodity: Can we reverse the trend? 38

[lacajun]

--
From Engineering News-Record, 4/23/2012, Gary J. Tulacz:

This view is hurting the designers, too. "Engineering has always been a problem-solving profession," says Giorgio. "When you treat design like a commodity, it will be managed that way, without regard to the value-added capabilities of the top problem-solvers."

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[zdas04]

A majority of the engineers I work with at various companies around the world should be treated as a commodity--the same commodity pool as the fast-food chains pull from. As long as so-called engineering schools are graduating mouth-breathing troglodytes with a strong sense of entitlement in such numbers, the profession should be increasingly looked on as a commodity.

For my week-long Field Facilities Engineering class I send out a pre-test and tell the students to use any resources that they have access to and take as long as they want. It is a multiple choice test--the average score is under 40% and the highest ever turned in by a graduate engineer is 52%. I gave the test to my son (2 years of college before falling in love like no one has ever been in love before, now he's a lease operator in Oil & Gas) and he scored 60%. My wife (high school graduate) scored 52%. These people should be treated as commodities.

How do you change it? STOP LOWERING THE REQUIREMENTS FOR GRADUATION. The engineering program my son was in did not have a senior-design class requirement. Materials was combined with Statics into one 3 semester-hour course. Electricity was taught in the ME department by ME graduate assistants and it was an elective. Differential equations was a technical elective and you are only allowed to take 6 hours of technical electives (as I recall, the "humanist" electives had to be at least 18 hours). As long as the profession is this poorly served by academia, we should not be surprised that the world sees us as the guys who drive the train down a track.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Star for David.

That message explained a _lot_.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[JohnRBaker]

Well, I guess it's safe to say that David probably didn't attend my school nor has he worked with anyone who's graduated from there. I visit the campus at least once a year as part of my job and I'm always impressed by the students and the projects which they're working on.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[zdas04]

John,
I would bet that if you compared the syllabus of "your school" today with one from each of the last 5 decades you would see that the even at very good schools the requirements have slipped year on year. The students today are every bit as smart as we were and we were every bit as smart as our parents were, I think that the disconnect is is the universities emphasis has shifted toward creating alumni that will donate while industry still wants engineers that can contribute.

When I worked for a salary I always watched for engineers from West Point or Texas A&M because they were universally a cut above the herd. I haven't had anyone from West Point in my classes so I can't speak to changes there, but I've had 3 recent A&M grads and while all three were smart people none of them seemed as well prepared as they would have been a decade ago, and all seemed to resent hard questions (as though they were entitled to skate through their profession).

I find it funny that virtually every new grad I've worked with in the nine years since I started consulting has resented messy numbers (e.g., why would a pipeline be 1457.2 m long instead of 1000 m long? why would someone ask them to add depth in m to surface pressure in bar(g)?). I'm not sure why they would think that the world will come to them with tidy numbers and consistent units, but they sure seem to.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[DRWeig]

I agree with zdas04 wholeheartedly! I would only add my experience with the colleges over the past 20 years or so:

The syllabus and program can be tough or lax (and they are getting more lax in my opinion). In either case, though, the only requirement for graduation seems to be the final tuition payment. Enrolling at a school is viewed as entitling one to a ceremony and certificate.

Professors have no incentive to give a failing grade. They have plenty of incentive to pass the student on, though. Failing a student leads to administrative hearings, charges of harrassment and bias, public slander via the social media, and a host of other consequences (including lawsuits).

I can name five BSEEs, all from name-brand schools, who cannot successfully compute the current flowing through a 250Ω resistor when a voltmeter tells them that the potential across it is 10 VDC. Even with a live internet connection at the desk and their Circuits 101 textbook on the shelf, they just are not capable of grasping that basic concept. That does not make them bad people -- but it does indicate that they have landed in a job for which they are not a good match.

The diplomas are real, though. How did they pass power systems or electronics courses? Here's how one did (he actually brags about it). The professor in question (an old friend of mine) verified it for me, unbeknownst to the bragging young BSEE:

"But Dr. X, I paid my tuition just like everybody else in the class -- what do you have against me that makes you want to give me a failing grade? Is it because I belong to the Church of [insert faith here]? I bet it is! Just wait until my lawyer gets hold of you! ... What's that you say? I can have a "B"? C'mon, how about an "A"? That's better. See you next semester! I'll be signing up for your advanced class."

But they can text-message 10 different friends or family members during a 30-minute technical training session.

Those are commodities, not professionals.

Sorry, this discussion hit my "go" button quite squarely.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

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[SnTMan]

What we gotta do is to get the print media to capitalize Engineer the way they do Realtor, that'll help

Regards,

Mike

 

[cranky108]

Strange that several companies are clameing there is a shortage of engineers, if the schools can just churn them out as you say. But on the other hand, most engineering jobs require experence, so that tells me that employers don't trust recent grads, or are unwilling to train newbes.

I guess the term "we pretend to work, they pretend to pay us" applies here.

So companies need to learn to pay for quality, and demand it.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I wonder how the introduction and recent escalation of tuition fees has/will affect that attitude in England & Wales (i.e. I'm paying therefore I deserve a gong at the end). When I did my degree there was no evident paying of fees - the government paid some nominal fee directly. And if you failed, you were kicked out, as a couple of my 1st year hall-mates discovered. I don't think it even occurred to them that they could reverse the decision, or even appeal. Simply put, degrees were awarded to worthy candidates, not wealthy candidates, or candidates with connections.


- Steve

 

[KENAT]

As to companies claiming a shortage of engineers, I believe that in many cases it is more of a 'shortage of engineers we can poach from competitors who can be highly productive from day one with no investment by us and who are willing to work for our slightly below market rate of pay'.

As to the quality of education, I sometimes wonder. I sure as hell don't seem as smart as a lot of the 'more experienced' folks. How much of that is just me, how much my education and how much genuinely the difference in levels of experience I don't know. Certainly saw evidence of things that used to be taught at high school having to be taught at university.

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[DRWeig]

Now that I'm more calm (excellent coffee this morning), I'll add the disclaimer I should have to my rant. There are exceptions, and there are exceptional schools. Exceptional students goes without saying.

So I'll join JohnRBaker and name a couple of more rigorous schools that I have investigated personally in the past few years:

Christian Brothers University, Memphis
University College, Dublin, Ireland
Seoul National University

There are sparks of hope out there elsewhere, I'm sure. Keep a positive note in the thread...

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

 

[lacajun]

Wow! I had no idea engineering curricula were being diluted so much. How does one correlate social science courses to donating? That seems to be more a matter of conscience and choice than humanities coursework.

Goober Dave I would call that threatening. I taught two sections of remedial math at my undergrad alma mater. One kid threatened me with tattling to the Department Head for using 'd@mn.' I told him to feel free in doing so. He was one that refused to learn despite complete ignorance of fractions, decimals, etc.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[zdas04]

The high school vs university discussion is a pendulum. When my dad started university after WWII he took a math placement exam to determine where in the math continuum he would start (pre-Calc in his case, some of his friends started in Calc II). When I entered university in 1977, there wasn't even a mechanism to test out of Calculus. When my youngest started university in 2004 Calculus class was remedial and could only be counted as an elective. You'd think that that would allow more room for engineering, but in this case math is in arts and science so they added 10 hours to the humanities electives.

I am seeing a corporate response (at least in Oil & Gas) to unqualified graduates being intern programs. All the majors have 3-5 year programs where new hires must accomplish a list of tasks including courses and OJT with three different mentors in sequence before they can work independently. I find the courses to be kind of remedial, but maybe that is appropriate. The time with mentors ranges from outstanding to worthless as you'd expect. These programs mostly help, but not as much as they would if the interns had come out of university with the proper foundation.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[zdas04]

Courses with numbers are hard. Courses where you just argue one person's opinion vs. another person's opinion "feel better".

It isn't that the humanities courses make someone more apt to contribute, it is that graduates contribute much more than people who didn't graduate. Giving you a piece of parchment significantly improves the schools potential cash flow when the student loans are paid off.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[lacajun]

David, it's surprising that an engineering school would allow that regardless of which department was responsible for the classes. What do the serious students do? Go along with the flow or take engineering courses?

When I began university, there were tests to CLEP out of algebra and English. I was encouraged to do both but I didn't. There were about 1000 students, K-12, in my school. It had a small offering of courses. Out of fear of missing something important and very little self-confidence, I took each class. I don't regret it. There were gaps and I had a hard time growing up.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[lacajun]

It isn't that the humanities courses make someone more apt to contribute, it is that graduates contribute much more than people who didn't graduate.

Only true if they can keep a job with high enough pay to...

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[zdas04]

"More apt", not "Certain".

CLEP actually was an option when I started as well, but it wasn't well published and very few of us had even heard of it until we'd been in university a while (where I come from a school with 1000 students was the big time, there were 16 in my high school graduating class, 200 in K-12, the "guidance counselor" was the typing teacher who had a high school education herself).

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[KENAT]

lacajun, you were clearly smarter than I as a student. I had the opportunity to skip the practical machining classes first year of uni as I'd taken design technology (think shop with math in 'merican parlance) last 2 years of high school. I chose to skip them and came to regret it once I realized they'd actually done more advanced machining in the few labs they had than I'd done in my entire 2 years. Oh well, live and learn.

zdas - interesting point on the apprenticeships. Even into the 1980's a lot of 'engineers' in the UK went the formal apprenticeship route rather than the more academic straight to university route. At the interview for my first job in 1999 I even got asked why I took the university route and not an apprenticeship - even though by then real apprenticeships were rarer. Some of the larger aerospace/defense comapanies had similar graduate recruit programs to what you mention when I was looking in 99, I don't remember quite so much academic study but as I didn't get a job with them I never knew too much.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

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(probably not aimed specifically at you)
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[lacajun]

There were 39 in my graduating class. All of my teachers were college graduates and quite a few had master's in their field. There is something to be said for Florien, Louisiana as compared to some areas. Who would've thought so?

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[zdas04]

Newton County Arkansas had 7 miles of paved roads when I left there for the Navy. Both the Shop/Driver's Ed teacher and the Typing Teacher got their positions through "relevant experience". We had one teacher with a masters who made $4/hour on an annualized basis--going rate for an agricultural factory worker (chicken plant) was $1.80/hour. The school/county/state were not magnets for teaching talent. In 1980 I was only the 8th graduate of my high school to graduate from college in the 20th century.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.