Engineering as a commodity: Can we reverse the trend? 38

[lacajun]

--
From Engineering News-Record, 4/23/2012, Gary J. Tulacz:

This view is hurting the designers, too. "Engineering has always been a problem-solving profession," says Giorgio. "When you treat design like a commodity, it will be managed that way, without regard to the value-added capabilities of the top problem-solvers."

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[JohnRBaker]

As I've alluded to before, if you're only interested in learning a skill, go to a damn trade school and save yourself a crap load of money. I chose to attend a university since I was more interested in being educated then simply being trained. If you still fail to grasp the point that I've been trying to make, perhaps you DID take the wrong electives after all.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
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To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[GregLocock]

The point you seem to be missing is that in many countries engineering degrees are primarily concerned with engineering. Whilst in your opinion that reduces those universities to trade schools that seems rather ridiculous to those of us who attended them. I haven't, by and large, noted that my American colleagues are better read, have a more intense understanding of music, or a better grasp of art, than those of us who went to uni in Germany, the UK, France, Holland and Tokyo, looking around my office.

They do seem to have more of an interest in politics and religion. Which is fine, but neither are discussed at the dinner table.


Cheers

Greg Locock


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[SNORGY]

I got "A"s in Philosophy and "B"s in engineering.

I should have been a Philosopher...then I could get paid for thinking and dreaming about work, wondering if it's all real or all an illusion.

Come to think of it...there are some days where that actually helps me.

 

[SNORGY]

Just reviewing the transcripts alluded to in my last post...

Good thing they didn't give out "M"s in university. I am not sure that I could have philosophized my way out of the ensuing nightmares.

 

[SnTMan]

To back up a bit...

If common sense could be taught it wouldn't be so uncommon.

Regards,

Mike

 

[cranky108]

Good point, the more I think of work, the more I see that some of it adds no value. So the no value tasks I don't complete, leaving me more time to do the high value tasks.
Philosophy does help.

 

[KENAT]

Thank you Greg, you made my point more eloquently than I, and having attended a UNIVERSITY that predates not only the founding of the US higher education system & the founding of the USA, but by some reckoning even the word University, it seems a bit more authoritative coming from you.

Many countries around the world, even signatories of the Washington Accord, are happy to specialize at university such that you spend your entire time studying your 'major' and directly related subjects.

So for instance, my entire 3 years (yes some of those countries manage to complete a bachelors in 3 years as has been discussed before) was spent studying aspects directly related to Aerospace Systems Engineering. The furthest away I got was 'maths'; a combined 'law, accounting & management' course and a half unit of 'aircraft operations'.

If by your definition that makes me and all the folks that got similar education 'trade school technicians' or some such then so be it, I'm not sure that diminishes our education.

Many of these countries actually do have 'trade schools' or variations on 'technical schools' (often combined with some form or apprenticeship) that offer more applied education but even they offer some courses that it would be rather harsh to classify graduates of as 'mere technicians', and certainly not just mechanics.

So, given the runaway cost of education in the US I can't help but wonder if perhaps some of the non core 'prerequisites' aren't so essential after all, or at least adjustments couldn't be made as to how and when they're taught.

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[KENAT]

(Sorry lacajun, went off into the weeds a bit there.)

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[lacajun]

Dissension, dissension, dissension...

Psychology, sociology, management, organizational behavior, English I/II, American History, etc. were all required courses in my day. I wouldn't have sought those courses but I am glad I took them. They have been of some use here and there.

I've read a lot but most is non-fiction.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[TGS4]

...Psychology, sociology, management, organizational behavior, ... were all required courses in my day....

I've read a lot but most is non-fiction.

By my reckoning, these two statements, while intended to be completely unrelated, are essentially synonymous.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I think pretty much all (I know of no exceptions) mechanical engineering degrees in the UK have engineering as a major right through.

My particular course had some management and economics sneaking in in the final year(s) - primarily aimed at production engineering and management types. We did have one mandatory unrelated class in each of the first two years (French Language and European History in my case).

I also think there is a different culture here. Most students see going to university as a mind-opening experience in its own right - leaving home and living in a strange town with new friends. The idea of going to the local uni so that you can stay at home seems all wrong, but it's one that I've heard from several Americans I know. There's more music, art and culture in central London than in a lecture theatre in some provincial town.

- Steve

 

[zdas04]

I have no problem with the English, specific Philosophy courses, History, Economics, etc requirements. At the end of the day if we can't communicate then no matter how good we do our sums no one will ever take us seriously. My problem is making Engineers fill in big expensive gaps with time-wasting nonsense (Film Appreciation for example).

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I hope people are not misunderstanding my comments. When I was attending university, except for the fact that I changed my field of study from Electrical to Mechanical near the end of my second year, when I finally graduated there was NO concept of my having had a 'Major' and/or a 'Minor'. My degree was considered to be in Mechanical Engineering, period! And while I was required to take a certain number of non-core electives in areas often referred to as 'humanities and social studies', other then what was recorded on my transcript, there was no implication that I was getting anything other than a Bachelors Degree in Mechanical Engineering.

That being said, since I graduated my university has implemented an alternative program. They now have both a 'College of Engineering' and a 'School of Technology'. In both cases they're offering a 4 year bachelors degree in Mechanical Engineering (and several other specialties, as well as postgraduate degrees). From what I've learned, if I were enrolled there today it would be in the 'College of Engineering' and in all honesty, except for having attended a few presentations at conferences where people from the 'School of Technology' were presenting, when I'm actually on campus in my continuing role as a representative of a supplier of technology (CAD/CAE/CAM/PLM software) to the university, I'm spending virtually all of my time dealing with the chair of the ME-EM department in the 'College of Engineering' as well as several of their professors and instructors, and on occasion, graduate and undergraduate students. So it's very possible, at least from what I've learned from around the edges, that the 'School of Technology' may be offering curriculums more closely aligned with what many of you have described as what you've experienced. And again, as best as I can tell, the 'College of Engineering' is maintaining what I guess we would call the traditional, at least as defined here in the states, approach to fulfilling the criteria for receiving a university degree in engineering.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
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[KENAT]

John, I used the term 'major' when perhaps I should have said 'primary field of study' or some such. I wasn't implying that you minored in basket weaving or something.

I was merely making the point that in many educational systems around the world, folks that go to university to study a specific subject (in this case Engineering) spend essentially all their time studying that subject and/or closely related/directly relevant topics.

It appeared that you were implying this equated to the type of trade school that mechanics might attend.

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[JohnRBaker]

My non-core electives were a very small portion of credits compared to what was needed to graduate. Without actually digging out my transcripts, I think the required credits needed was something like 205 credit-hours (note that we were on a 3 terms per year scheme when I was there) or about 17 credit-hours per term. Of these 205, my ROTC classes were not included but my 6 credits of PE and 18 credits (non-core electives) of 'Humanities & Social Studies' were. If we lump the PE and electives together that works out to a little less than 12% of the published minimum requirements for a Bachelors Degree in Mechanical Engineering. I hardly consider that as being excess.

And for the record, my 18 credits of 'Humanities & Social Studies' comprised of classes in American History and Psychology.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
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Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

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[KENAT]

So your 12% makes yours a university education while my ~0% meant trade school?

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[JohnRBaker]

You mean you didn't have a PE (Physical Education) requirement?

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[KENAT]

No PE, nor any of the other non engineering stuff you listed in your 22 Jun 12 17:31 post or any similar posts either as elective or requirements.

As I mentioned before, the furthest away I got from engineering was my single combined law, accounting & management course and my short 'aircraft operations' course (it was an aero eng degree). This added up to maybe 5% and was arguably actually directly relevant to my degree, just not really technical.

Now I did participate in sports teams but this did not count toward my degree in any way shape or form. Additionally I could have taken 'technical' French but it wouldn't have directly contributed to my degree, just would have been an additional class for no extra formal credit.

Educational requirements in other systems really are quite different, and I'm not convinced denigrating them as 'trade schools' is fair or appropriate. I'm fairly confident that Greg's university for instance probably outranks yours on many international ranking tables despite not having all the non technical classes.

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[SomptingGuy]

Ahh, the uni/poly divide that still exists (in memory) in the UK higher education system.

Regarding "PE". Why would that be a requirement? Students who liked sports joined sports clubs, of which there were many, mostly funded by the university, but optional.

Incidentally, my "university" started life as a trade school (and I mean filing metal). The City & Guilds Institute of London still exists of course.


- Steve

 

[Twoballcane]

I actually agree with the European (can I say that?) way of education. I’ve paid for my degree and it was frustrating that I had to pay and take classes that I did not really need in the real world. It was just another way for the colleges to make more money. I think in stead of more electives in humanities and/or liberal art classes, the colleges (or student) should look for more ways to get internships to better prepare the student for the working world. I feel the best way to learn sociology, history, economics,…etc, is to learn it thru an engineering company’s lens than academia’s lens. I would have even paid for the internship than pay for liberal art classes. With this said, I was very fortunate to get two summers worth of internships at a national laboratory and see who the math and physics I’ve learned where used in the real world before I graduated.

However, the topic is engineering a commodity and how do we reverse it. Well let me ask this question. What is the proof that engineering is a commodity? I mean that we (from what I’ve read on this post so far) have engineers working for companies, PE in the public sector, and engineers who started and own their company. All of this with just a Bachelors Degree (and some without), maybe I’m just looking at this thru rose colored glasses, but for the level of education to ROI is not too bad. I’ve just seen this the other day (

http://jobview.monster.com/Senior-Mechanical-Engineer-Job-Andover-MA-111231284.aspx)

where if your specialty is plastics you can make between $100K to $120K, that’s not to shabby for four (or five) years of effort.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”