Engineer or draftsman? who does detailing

[JamesM]

I was originally hired in my current position to do detailing for the other engineers. (I am not an engineer.) The job eventually transitioned into less of detailing other's models, and more of me doing design. While I enjoy the challenge, it puts me in the position of not always knowing what I'm doing, while the other engineers do things that are probably not the best use of their time.

 

[cjrock38]

I've been a drafter for 10 years and just recently started a new position as a designer/drafter. I have used Pro-E/Intralink for the past 9 years and in my experience the best way to prevent anyone from (making changes tothe model) is to "lock" the individual model files in Commonspace. This prevents anyone (other than the person who locks the file) from being able to modify it, the "lock" can also be shared with anyone that may need to modify the model. Another way to prevent certain "groups" of Pro-E/Intralink users from modifying models is through user privileges, for example: anyone designated asa member of thedrafting "group" will have privileges to modify drawings but cannot modify models. If the later is possible, it has to be implemented by the Intralink Administrator.&nbs p; Also, consistant communication between Engineer/Designer/Drafter is a definate must!

 

[jnoval]

So who does the stack-ups ????


Do any of you know what a stack-up is ???

What is it then?

 

[jnoval]

Some are simple, and some are more complex. We do not need to show all detail of complex models. We send a 3D file (proE, step, igex..) to the moldmaker. We only have to show the "import" details. That can be on one sheet. Who will read 20 sheets, when all they need is a 3D file. In our case it would be a wast of time to do all detailing.

 

[AHA-D]

A 3D-model is indeed the way to go for the future. And especially with the higher mentioned "difficult" parts like castings and freeform injection pieces there is hardly a way to define them accuratelyin drawings. I've done some very succesfull projects with a minimum of drawings (all you put on the drawing is inspection dimensions that are critical for the final product) and have had total failures with suppliers misreading drawings.


Alex

 

[verge]

I worked for a prototyping company where we never used drawings. All files were sent to us as 3-D models, then we put whatever draft was needed onto the model, made an SLA, and used the SLA for the molds. As AHA-D pointed out, only critical dimensions were really necessary on those models. Many companies are now utilizing the speed of this approach to bring their products to market quicker. And why not? We produced castings, machined parts and injection molded plastic parts, all with almost no drawings whatsoever.

 

[dougr]

So who does the stack-ups ????


Do any of you know what a stack-up is ???

What is it then?

It was actually a rhetorical question.


Stack-up as in tolerance stack-up, one of the most fundamental functions of an Engineer, Designer or Drafter
Edited by: dougr

 

[jnoval]

Thanks Dougr

 

[verge]

I like a good stack-up of pancakes in the morning myself. I also have a decent-sized stack-up of things to do around the house.

 

[Zaki]

Hi Guys


In my opinion, its depends upon the time and work loads on designer and engineers. Normaly I have no time to detail the drawings, so I had train a team of draftsmen, nc operators and part modelers. Simple or mid level parts designed by modelers, I checked and correct em, then design the mold, die or whatever we need. then make a role to allow draftsmen to access via intralink, and after that same for nc operators. but I lock the final parts first to prevent the modifications. My draftsman and nc operators can make new drw and mfg files and check in but cant check in the part file or override it. by this my design will remain safe.

 

[rschuite]

Our Engineers don't even touch Pro. They consult withthe CAD Drafterthe desires of marketing. We then make the models and drawings, provide the Bills etc.


The Engineers time is better spent dealing with costing, tooling, testing,manufacturing issues etc. Face it with Pro E you don't need to be a full blown Engineer to model parts and make drawings.


As CAD Drafters we will be the ones dealing with drawings and models in the future so we want ownership of the quality of our models. If you know your going to be detailing a model it has a huge impact on the quality of it.

 

[AHA-D]

Our Engineers don't even touch Pro. They consult withthe CAD Drafterthe desires of marketing. We then make the models and drawings, provide the Bills etc.


The Engineers time is better spent dealing with costing, tooling, testing,manufacturing issues etc. Face it with Pro E you don't need to be a full blown Engineer to model parts and make drawings.


As CAD Drafters we will be the ones dealing with drawings and models in the future so we want ownership of the quality of our models. If you know your going to be detailing a model it has a huge impact on the quality of it.

All depends on where you put the focus I guess. I have always been both the drafter and the designer, particularly because when I started - in the days of the drawing board - you had no choice. The only way to communicate what you wanted to make was by drawing it with enough precision so that others could make it.


With the invention of CAD the designer got the advantage of being able to design the model, instead of a making a drawing representing it. But CAD also provides tools so that you don't have to "manually" make drawings. So the amount of energy put into drawings is minimal (at least in the jobs I do).


Being a designer doing CAD my opinion is that you have the advantage of being in the middle of the design. I constantly change and adjust the design while putting it to model. So this is not a waste of time.


Alex

 

[prohammy]

Our Engineers don't even touch Pro. They consult withthe CAD Drafterthe desires of marketing. We then make the models and drawings, provide the Bills etc.


The Engineers time is better spent dealing with costing, tooling, testing,manufacturing issues etc. Face it with Pro E you don't need to be a full blown Engineer to model parts and make drawings.


As CAD Drafters we will be the ones dealing with drawings and models in the future so we want ownership of the quality of our models. If you know your going to be detailing a model it has a huge impact on the quality of it.

All depends on where you put the focus I guess. I have always been both the drafter and the designer, particularly because when I started - in the days of the drawing board - you had no choice. The only way to communicate what you wanted to make was by drawing it with enough precision so that others could make it.


With the invention of CAD the designer got the advantage of being able to design the model, instead of a making a drawing representing it. But CAD also provides tools so that you don't have to "manually" make drawings. So the amount of energy put into drawings is minimal (at least in the jobs I do).


Being a designer doing CAD my opinion is that you have the advantage of being in the middle of the design. I constantly change and adjust the design while putting it to model. So this is not a waste of time.


Alex

rschuite,


I've gotta agree with Alex on this one. I too do both (even though I will admit that when it comes to detailing my designs I will look for the easy way out of trying to get a draighter to do the drawings) and have always found that the designs I do where I also do the drawings will in general be better and have less mistakes. When I hand my designs over to a draughter, I am very reliant on them spotting errors and questioning ideas, and good draughters like that are becoming a rarity. This is not a blast at draughters in any way, but there is a degree of panic that can set in when I hand models to others. I am lucky that the guy I am working with at the moment is very good and I think he gets a kick out of pointing out things that he thinks can be improved (value added to the product by him and myself). I have worked with others, in the past thank God, who didn't give a s*%t about their work (quantity before quality) and I ended up having some blazing arguments and demanding that I be allowed to take my designs back and do the work myself.


I guess in a lot of ways I am talking about how business and personal relationships can interact to provide a value-added output from an Engineering Dept. The actual mangagement ofthis relationship on both a personal and company level will ultimately provide the best outcome.


Kev

 

[verge]

Nice answer! Sometimes engineers tend to forget that personal relationships are extremely important in the business world. When someone's on your side, they're more likely to care whether your design is implemented correctly, whether they're a drafter, a manager or a welder.


You can see by some of the entries in this thread that it's not always easy for everyone to get along in this high-stress world.


By the way, I am an engineer who does all of his own modeling and detailing; right now I have no option. I wouldn't mind at times passing the detailing on to someone else, though, simply because it can be time-consuming. I would want to have a very good rapport with that person, though, so that we could give each other feedback comfortably, as you've said, Kev.

 

[Lhann]

I think i depends on the culture of the workplace. If the site has few employees then people often wear different hats. If it is a large department thena person tends to be more specialized. Would you want the draftsman to do engineering tasks, which in my opinion is often the case, then yes the engineer should be able to complete the drafting if they feel capable. An engineer may want to have the drafter review and clean up the print upon completion because they have been trained to follow specific drafting standards.

 

[prninja2008]

Allow me to introduce myself:


My name is Ivan, I have been a draftsman/designer for 32 years,


on Cad for the last 25, Pro/E for the last 14


Here's my two cents:


The engineer(s) (as I have seen) use Cad as a "sketching" tool; just the basic shape with overall dimensions. Now either by e-mail, or in most cases with me, would sit down and take about 20-30 minutes explaing his design intent. Thenit would be up to me to "take" over and design/detail all the assemblies/details.


Remember, the draftsman has to follow all the ASME Y14.5, company standards, and any other drawing standards to prepare the drawing. The engineer does not have the time to learn all that. If they did, draftspersons would not be needed.


As for Intralink, I have the responsibility to make sure the files are complete (parameters, file designations, and integrity) so the next draftsperson/designer at a future date does not have to take time to try and figure out the design intent.


Of course, the engineer (in my opinion) should not worry about Intralink or how the files; there should be an admin for Intralink to handle the filing system.


That's it. I hope I did not insult, nor sound condescending towards anybody.

 

[dr_gallup]

As a degreed engineer with over 30 years experience I do all the conceptual, CAD, CAE, FEA & detailing myself for new products. Can you say anal retentive? I find I can do it faster myself than explain to someone else what I want. I also wrote the company standard on drawings, part numbering, modeling practices. We use drafters for keeping up with production changes but I find they change much too often to ever got fully up to speed on our standards.

Spending time on both the part design & the detailing frequently lets me spot potential problems that would otherwise not be found until the first round of prototypes.

 

[rschuite]

Wow, never thought this would get any response... so lets throw this into the mix


If pro e wasn't so cool and fun and we were still using drawing boards how many of you Engineers would say .... I'll do my own drafting... which is really why we make the models...I know we can send data to lasers and CNC machines to make parts now... does the engineer do that also?


I guess I get worked up over this because in my 25 years of having engineers come in and think they can operate a CAD system and keep up with all the other responsabilities of being an Engineer (see my original post). They would need 50 hours in a day. Anyone that has used Pro E for a long time knows that to remain proficient you need to be sitting in front of the Tube. Engineers in a large company have meeting upon meeting, reviews, vendors, finding sources, choosing correct materials, finishes, etc. In some companies there may be time for that and to wait for data....In the company I work for we need to turn around changes NOW! or in some case YESTERDAY.


Why pay someone Engineers wages to put information into a model and then do the detailing (which as anyone knows is the least favorite part of doing this)


So let the drafters have some enjoyment, let them model, they will be happier and stick around longer. Also you will be more productive because you won't be sitting in front of the tube when you could be taking care of issues the Drafter isn't educated to do.

 

[dr_gallup]

In the company I work for we need to turn around changes NOW! or in some case YESTERDAY.

Exactly. That is why I do my own models & drawings. I can get out of the meeting, change the drawing & issue the ECN immediately. IF I submit it through the official channel it could take a month!

 

[rschuite]

now your not talking about the same thing.


Your talking about some quick change.. this topic is about MODELING and DETAILING. which unless your making something very simple isn't going to be an instant change. I would have no problem with an engineer making a quick change to a drawing. but I have seen some total Junk from people that don't have the time or experience with Pro E to USE IT CORRECTLY. Typically Engineers have way more time spent dealing with other issues. For instance I just completed a special product that the engineer gave me direction on and left up to me to complete that required 15 drawings 4 subassemblies, and 1 large assembly drawing along with 4 totally new parts. While I was working on this he was dealing with some manufacturing issues that were going to arise because of this special and multiple other issues I am not qualified to handle...... AND I AM ten times (or more ) faster on Pro than he is.... Plus because I am doing the modeling my detailing is twice as fast because I have made the necessary sections, added the tolerances etc.


I have seen many many Engineers that say I like to do my own modeling... then the detailer spends an hour or more fixing the model so that the shown dims are correct, or so instances can be made withoug failing.


I can see an Engineer modeling up a quick concept but the final modeling should be left to someone with time to really learn Pro E. I just worked on an imported model from a design house that had 115 features It failed as soon as I tried to add any instances...... any change and KABOOM.... I remodeled it with 22 features and all the instance regen flawlessly...





The Key word here is Ecperience... and theperson sitting in front of the tube 40 hours a week is the person that is going to be most efficient.


The last point I would like to make is this.


I have been doing this since 1992 full time plus. whichmeans I have a minimum off 33,280 hours of ProE experience.How could someone be an Engineer for the same 16 years and have that kind of experience. We have many younger engineers come and go. There is no way I would sit here and let them feed me their models and say hey detail this. When they do the model they do the detailing... only way I have found to make sure they take care when modeling... otherwise it's typically half a....ed. Also, I can't count the amount of times they come to me and say....how do you do this? or I don't have time to finish this...can you help me out.


It may be different in different environments... Like I said I have my own business on the side and have designed Outdoor wood burning furnaces, Ladder levelers... and many other things... all without an engineering degree and did all modeling and drawings. But remember this is done at my pace, not the pace being directed by a large company with people on the line that will be standing around if the drawing isn't done, or is done incorrectly.


All of these statements refer to a company large enough to need both drafters/designers and Engineers.