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Crazy cantilevered steel deck 7

DoubleStud

Structural
Jul 6, 2022
508
I found this video on youtube. What do you think of this deck? The guy went to the end of the deck and jumped a little bit, you can clearly see the deck moves up and down. At minute 3:55 he shows the structural detail.


 
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One of the big learnings I've had from this forum is that the way NZ does structural engineering is not how the rest of the world does it
We are very involved in almost all of our projects, with lots of site visits and final sign off required from us before the Council will issue their Compliance certificate at the end
So, we would have been on site to check those bolts + the reinforcement in the footing if we had designed it

Yeah I believe in the state of Queensland there are specific check points for builds along similar lines of what you describe. Other states there are check points I believe but more for building surveyors rather than engineers.

Often the engineer's responsibility stops at the design. However diligent clients will make it the engineer's responsibility to perform suitable checks. Likewise diligent engineers might insist on site checks on certain aspects if they are particularly complex.

However for a standard residential project there might be no site visits required. Likewise some of my industrial jobs might be a days travel away. If the client is only paying for the design then they just get the design.
 
One of the big learnings I've had from this forum is that the way NZ does structural engineering is not how the rest of the world does it
We are very involved in almost all of our projects, with lots of site visits and final sign off required from us before the Council will issue their Compliance certificate at the end
So, we would have been on site to check those bolts + the reinforcement in the footing if we had designed it
Whats the ball park charge in fees for a residential project if you are making an allowance for multiple no. of inspections as you have mentioned?
 
Whats the ball park charge in fees for a residential project if you are making an allowance for multiple no. of inspections as you have mentioned?
From what I gather most New Zealand employees get paid in sunshine, rainbows, smiles and a few New Zealand DollaKiwis. (Which are less than $AUD, $CAD, or $USD.) But New Zealand is a fantastic and lovely place to live so that makes up for it! 😂
 
@Ron247, why would the shim packs need to be removed? In ~25yrs (in the US) I've never seen anyone attempt to remove baseplate shims before grouting, neither for gravity only nor moment resisting baseplates. I cannot even wrap my head around how that is physically possible?
 
@Ron247, why would the shim packs need to be removed? In ~25yrs (in the US) I've never seen anyone attempt to remove baseplate shims before grouting, neither for gravity only nor moment resisting baseplates. I cannot even wrap my head around how that is physically possible?
The location of the shim sets the moment arm length. Shims at the outer edge of the compression side can be removed easier than the middle and provide a longer moment arm near where most people I know estimate the final/design arm location is on a baseplate subjected to rotation. Since you are trying to overcome some magnitude of applied moment, by a couple provided by the product of bolt tension force x distance to centroid of compression area, shortening the distance increases the force. Cutting the design distance in half doubles the force. It has to. Look at the video, The shim appears to be in the center. I agree, they are hard to remove, but I mean, they should not be in the middle to start with. This is the first one I have ever seen where it is in the middle. The presence of the shim in the center triggered these conclusions. This structure is always subject to rotation. If the connection is always in rotation, you do not even need a shim on the tension bolt side, you just need the nuts to be installed above the baseplate. Gravity loads are much less of a problem, but even those have distribution concerns since the shim is less deformable than the grout. In gravity only loading, the tension on the bolts is not affected by shims.

View this connection in the order it is installed, not the final appearance. Some loads get induced that are not removed/reduced later. Difference in deformation potential between the steel and grout comes later, when the grout is installed. E is not the same for example and how densely the grout is installed is a factor. Even if you held the structure so there was no net moment at the baseplate, but there was still gravity load, the final arm location will be somewhat related to the shim since the shim and grout do not deform equally. But this condition is much less of a concern than starting out that way.
Are we correct about what a shim does to the moment arm?
That is also why I asked, if we were correct in that conclusion. I use leveling nuts thus putting some bolts in compression temporarily, grout except at the leveling nuts, lower the leveling nuts when the grout cures and touch up the grout. I have never seen a shim in the middle of a baseplate on a moment baseplate and like you, I have seen many. Now, I have a lot of projects that I was not hired to do inspection of any kind.

Even if grout is added later, the DL forces are still of the same magnitude. Adding grout while the center shim is still there, does not relieve the bearing on the shim. The steel shim will resist deformation more than the grout in most cases. Makes it hard to estimate where the true centroid of the compression area is located.

If I am wrong about this, I would appreciate knowing (mechanically speaking) why I am. As I say below, "Never too old to learn". So, anyone who thinks I am not picturing what is going on correctly, please enlighten me. It will be appreciated. I do not need any more tin-foil hats, no matter how stylish they may be.
 
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Even if grout is added later, the DL forces are still of the same magnitude. Adding grout while the center shim is still there, does not relieve the bearing on the shim. The steel shim will resist deformation more than the grout in most cases. Makes it hard to estimate where the true centroid of the compression area is located.
Me believes it will all work itself out. I imagine shims are left in there more than you realize in all sorts of moment bases.
 
Me believes it will all work itself out. I imagine shims are left in there more than you realize in all sorts of moment bases.
True, many I have looked at were not visible in the first place. Already grouted, or slab poured over them. I am just looking at the mechanics. I cannot control what a fabricator/installer does in course of their work. I have designed several monopole signs that are fixed base but have never been paid for site inspections. I have never put a note on my drawing addressing shims. As I stated, I tend to use temporary leveling nuts. Reversible moment connections are an even bigger issue, since there is no dominant direction. In this case, there is a dominant direction and 100% of the time, there is the presence of some degree of moment in one direction.

Using high durometer rubber or some other compressible media for shims can alleviate the concerns.

Me believes it will all work itself out.
You got me there because everything will work itself out, one way or the other.😊 In your opinion, is there an error in my mechanics, as opposed to a difference in opinions of the long-term implications? Mechanically, I could use a shorter moment arm in my calcs and therefore allow for any difference. I just know where most people I know estimate the centroid of compression to be approximately.
 
I'll bet that six little kids (or two drunk teenagers) could really get that balcony bouncing. (I remember getting a pedestrian suspension bridge bouncing (with a few friends) when was 11-years-old, long before any of us knew the definition of "resonance".) I also noticed the balcony slightly swaying when he was just standing there with the camera zoomed in on the gap between the steel and wood framing. Not good.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but that cantilevered roof framing might also be susceptible to flutter in high wind. It also looks like this house is at the top of a hill (which could also increase the speed of the wind blowing against the house).
 
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You got me there because everything will work itself out, one way or the other.😊 In your opinion, is there an error in my mechanics, as opposed to a difference in opinions of the long-term implications? Mechanically, I could use a shorter moment arm in my calcs and therefore allow for any difference. I just know where most people I know estimate the centroid of compression to be approximately.
Under full design loads, I imagine there will be enough deformation in the baseplate to make the moment arm as long as possible. But, yea, I think it is a valid concern - one that most would not consider.
 
@Ron247, I understand your concern now. I do agree there is some odd load transfer happening at various stages in the life of shims and baseplate. At ultimate, I can see the possibility of some local yielding and/or crushing of concrete at the shims. However the local effect is self limiting as the rest of the baseplate engages bearing on properly placed grout. AISC has also described this in a couple Steel Interchange questions, as well as Design Guide 1.
 
Under full design loads, I imagine there will be enough deformation in the baseplate to make the moment arm as long as possible.
I agree, that is one of several reasonable and likely outcomes. I do not know about everyone else, but this deck is a first for me. Way too many "Ifs, Maybes and Whys" in both its design and construction. It does make us consider some things we have not seen or noted before. At least for me, it has. It's where I go from "There's a bathroom on the right" to "There's a bad moon on the rise" in some instances. The problem with that is it makes me backtrack in my head in relation to previous projects. The older I get, the farther I have to backtrack.😊
 
@Ron247, I understand your concern now. I do agree there is some odd load transfer happening at various stages in the life of shims and baseplate. At ultimate, I can see the possibility of some local yielding and/or crushing of concrete at the shims. However the local effect is self limiting as the rest of the baseplate engages bearing on properly placed grout. AISC has also described this in a couple Steel Interchange questions, as well as Design Guide 1.
This is another reasonable and likely outcome in addition to the one XR250 noted. So, very quickly we have 2 reasonable outcomes. My main concern is not the concrete, it is the potential increase in tension load on anchor bolts that several have already expressed concerns on the embedment of. For me, it was more the location of the shim, than the mere presence of a shim.
 
Whats the ball park charge in fees for a residential project if you are making an allowance for multiple no. of inspections as you have mentioned?
Obviously this is going to be hugely dependent on the job but here is a ballpark:

- Say 500+GST per inspection on average (travel time, mileage, inspection time, memo time, maybe a phone call or two)
- If we are doing a full house then there will be an excavation inspection (subgrade - by us or geotech), foundation pre pour, a preline inspection and maybe a pre-stop to check bracing. So min 4 inspects say $2k + GST, allow for inevitable phone calls etc through the project, maybe $2.5k+GST against a design fee of perhaps double that (5k+GST)

However, that's for a relatively low complexity engineered house (not a basic house, but not a fully architectural monstrosity)
Our involvement is dependent on the builder's sequencing - if the builder needs to stage their foundation pours, we will be coming back multiple times
Houses on hills need a lot of inspections as you end up with excavation + foundation pre pour + block pre pour for every stage of the site works - which could be 5+ stages sometimes!

I've just completed a mid complexity architectural house on the hill (maybe a 7/10 complexity) and the design fee was ~20k+GST and construction fees were ~7k+GST

I completed a very complex house (9+/10 complexity) on the hill last year with 30 inspection records
Not every one was a site visit (some times it's just documenting a design change etc) but I think we had 22-24 site visits on that job at a lot more than $500+GST each

Rarely would this be fixed fee: it's dependent on too many factors outside of our control (build sequencing, contractor quality, weather, design changes, human factors e.g. builder forgets something)
 
Does GST stand for "Goods and Services Tax"? If so, I do not think we have that in the part of the US I live in.
 
Does GST stand for "Goods and Services Tax"? If so, I do not think we have that in the part of the US I live in.
Yes it's Goods and Servies Tax. It's a flat 15% tax applied to basically every single thing - we don't have the double down of state and federal taxes, nor are there variations between items: it's 15% on everything

It's the consultant in me to state +GST on all fees - you only want to forget to tell a client + GST once and sting your own pocket....
 
It's the consultant in me to state +GST on all fees - you only want to forget to tell a client + GST once and sting your own pocket....
It is a good idea to tell them up front. A friend of mine in construction includes the tax in his price. If they say "Go ahead" real fast, he adds "plus tax". If they don't say it fast, he tells them "but that includes tax". He is good at it. While it is not a GST, it is a sales tax on goods.
 
Ha more power to him if he pulls that off
Here, you would have invalidated your contract by doing that and the client would then have the opportunity to say "get stuffed" if they're smart enough to realise you're taking the piss
 
Not exactly a hot tub, but ...
Balcony loading, 60 psf if they are lucky, water, 62.4 psf.

The water hose is still in the "Shallow end of the Gene Pool", wonder if they are not thru filling it yet? Thank God the kid is only 9" tall.

However they dammed up the doorway had better work real good.
 
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