Acceptability of Printed Digitally Stamped Drawings (WA State in Particular) 1

[KootK]

That was mouthful. So imagine this:

1) You digitally stamp some drawings in full compliance with all of the statues etc.

2) The building department insists on hard copies so your client prints out your drawings and turns 'em in.

Anybody experienced push back in terms of accepting the printed versions of the digitally stamped versions?

I would have thought that the printed set would have lost all of it's validity as a stamped document. However, I called the WA department of licensing and they said that it should be fine. I could hear a little hesitation in the guy's voice though.

Anybody have any personal experiences to to relay? Shipping drawings to WA form Canada is going to be a pain. That said, I don't want my client to be getting hassled at the desk.



I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[KootK]

Well, that is just the recommended image from Washington's web page. I shoulda made a dummy edit at the same time for anonymous sharing and evaluation. Too much work now. It was mostly Bluebeam. Also Word, Snipping Tool, and an online thing that's especially good at removing background pixels. I found that one of the keys to it is use dark grey text rather than pure black. I also go in and lighten/delete a few pixels around the edges of the text. Makes for an nice, well worn look.

I did make one serious error though. I put a lot of effort into a nice, background free signature a while back. It's built into all of my stamps now. Trouble is it's green pen. Not sure why I did that. Shoulda been blue for legality. You'd think that would be an easy edit but it hasn't been.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[CBSE]

I originally created my own digital stamps, and then realized I can just order one for less than the time it took me...like less than 1/4 of the cost of my time

There isn't any regulation on ordering a wet stamp or digital stamp. So in that regard, counterfeit is pretty much unstoppable. My signature is all over the place. A quick picture of my signature and a little "KootK" handiwork and you have a bonofide document. I really just kind of chuckle every time someone gets serious about protecting their stamp by only wet signing. It's the digital age, really can't prevent much of anything.

 

[KootK]

I originally created my own digital stamps, and then realized I can just order one for less than the time it took me...like less than 1/4 of the cost of my time

What now? Where do you get them from? Perhaps my googling skills are getting rusty in my old age.

There isn't any regulation on ordering a wet stamp or digital stamp. So in that regard, counterfeit is pretty much unstoppable.

I've been intentionally staying out of this debate so far but now I can't resist. I actually think that counterfeit stamping is less of a problem in the digital age. At least now I can easily go online and verify that Mike hasn't been dead for twenty years. And while nothing's un-hackable, I feel that true digital signing offers a fair bit of protection if only the AHJ's would actually make use of the functionality when they receive documents (my jurisdiction is useless this way).

I suppose from the limited perspective of preventing theft of seal, New Jersey is doing it right.

I'd like to know more about this. Can you save me a little research and give me a quick overview?

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

What now? Where do you get them from? Perhaps my googling skills are getting rusty in my old age.

[URL unfurl="true"]http://www.engineerseals.com/order/washingtonpe.php[/url] scroll down to find electronic jpg. I'm sure there are other options from the other major stamp providers.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[KootK]

&*&#!@@! I was actually there trying to pilfer the image. Ten lousy dollars... ugh. Fail.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[jayrod12]

I assume it took you more time than $10 worth of billable hours...

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[KootK]

Eh, maybe not so bad. 60 minutes my way. With shopping, credit card checkout, receiving the product, and adding my signature to the image, it probably woulda been at least 40 min anyhow, plus the $10 ($7,368 CAD).

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[CBSE]

KootK: you're slow. It takes me less than 10 minutes to go to the site, put my info in and then check out. Plus, the digital copy gives me instant gratification...which is super COOL!

 

[OldBldgGuy]

I guess my low-tech (for 2017) method of stamping a piece of paper, signing it, scanning it & making a TIFF, & inserting that into a drawing or onto a document is just "too yesterday". It took me as long to type this as it takes me to do what I described, and the benefit is that it's an image of my actual signature with the handwritten date over the stamp, so I can spot in a second if it's been tampered with and it's useless stuck on something of any other date.

 

[CBSE]

OldBBldgGuy: you are writing that presuming that you would see every single document that gets stamped in whatever state you are in...which will never happen. My signature is my actual signature scanned in with high resolution many moons ago so it looks legit. You cannot stop what you don't know is happening until someone gets caught.

I agree with the above though, there really isn't much fraud.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

OldBldgGuy: I use the same method. Recently I started putting a digital signature on the PDF as well if I submit electronically (99.9% of all my work) as I figure it's more professional and can't hurt.

CBSE: How would your method prevent "what you don't know is happening"?

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[CBSE]

TehMightyEngineer: My method does not prevent it. I'm merely making the point that being extremely protective of your stamp is basically useless in today's age of digital media. OldBldgGuy made it sound as though he does a wet stamp, signs it, scans it, makes a TIFF, and then inserts it in his drawing for every single drawing. My point was that is a lot of extra time to go through for something that can be easily duplicated if someone was so desperate to do so.

In all reality, our true last line of defense is the building department. They see enough of each firms work, and presumably have a decent idea of who is working where (for the most part unless changing companies), and know the quality of work of individuals that are stamping drawings that a dramatic change in detailing methods and plan sets to the point that they may see something that looks completely off for the individual stamping the drawings. Case in point, there are two reviewers at the state level that know my stuff very well, and send me an e-mail letting me know that they are reviewing my plans. THIS IS A GREAT CHECK. I think building departments should do this more often as it really is one last check.

 

[CBSE]

I should say that I do like OldBldgGuy method, quite clever.

 

[OldBldgGuy]

Most of my work (Ontario, not in the States)is in jurisdictions where the building departments are familiar with me and I have had them call me a few times to ask if I stamped some drawings. A couple times they were oddball things, but legitimate. Once it was a drawing that someone had scanned and inserted my stamp, removing the date. It was done by a draftsman working for a small builder who had an old drawing of mine. It was easy to spot because I hand date the stamp, so no date is obvious and I doubt that anyone could remove a date and convincingly forge a new one in. That & good plan reviewers as CBSE says are the best I can hope for for security.

It doesn't take long to stamp a set of drawings; once the TIFF is made (2 minutes) it's only 2 mouse clicks to insert it. I can't physically do it anywhere near as fast, even if I did print the drawings which I usually don't. I occasionally put a digital signature on drawings, as TehMightyEngineer does, and I'm sure it's more secure, but for the most part my work is going to people & places I know so I'm probably not as concerned as I should be.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

TehMightyEngineer: My method does not prevent it. I'm merely making the point that being extremely protective of your stamp is basically useless in today's age of digital media.

...I should say that I do like OldBldgGuy method, quite clever.

Ah, I misunderstood. Thanks for the explanation.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[sandman21]

Just for future reference Washington Board guidelines for electronic documents