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Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea
6

Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
Hi,
I want to share my thought on what I have called a 'subducing head',
it's a pneumatic engine.
Here's the first drawing==>

The concept is to apply more pressure on one side of a shape within an air compression chamber.
So the red squares are areas of pressure, which don't occur on the other side of the shape,
as the steps mating(wrung) allow the backward pressure face to be culled. Their area in practice ceases to exist.
However this does mean that the feet have to move uphill, and the air pressure will jam them outward,
meaning that inclination has to be overcome.
Would this provide circular movement?
-The thing about this motor, is that requires no more force than compression, it doesn't need relief.
Here's a 3d model:-

...and the forward pressure areas of such:-

I would like to share, and get this built. Do you think it would work?
...I'd love anyone to get involved
If you'd like to help, please reply with your thoughts
-I hope this is interesting,
if you would just like to comment on why or why this doesn't work,
I'd be curious to hear
Cheers

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Eh?

Maybe someone better than me can actually understand where the air pressure is and how this thing actually creates force and movement.

To do work something needs to move and then pressure back up again. Needs a step by step drawing or animation.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

What on earth is the objective of this complicated mechanism?

There's a pneumatic air motor in my shop, in the form of a CampbellHausfield pneumatic impact tool. It works, and I'm pretty sure its motor doesn't have anywhere near as many fiddly bits and pieces inside it! So, what's this supposed to do that existing technology doesn't?

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Motors expand compressed air to extract power. Your diagram shows the red line getting smaller which is a compression. This is not going to work.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
The pressure is inside the pipe-like mechanism.
The entirety of it is sealed flat between enclosing plates,
which would have a push fitting tapped into one.
There is no exhaust, this kind of motor theoretically works
without relief.
The compression is constant, the model is meant to cop 80-100psi,
of which even one square inch of forward area is a substantial torque.
So- with the plot, you can see that as the circumference becomes parallel to the round,
yes, the force stops, but there is more than 1/3 of surface area still pushing as there
are 6 spokes and 8 planes, providing a degree of offset and overlap, that moves forward,
theoretically at this stage.
The idea is that one side of these foot-like things captures more surface area than the other,
thus having momentum

There are all kinds of air motors, from turbos, vanes, volutes,
some have many parts, some don't

The advantage of this idea is that it's meant to work without relief,
just as long as there is no bleed through seals,
it can just keep going

thanks for your assaying and comment,
I look forward to any more

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Errr pressure alone is not energy. You need flow and differential pressure to get energy.

You're making this sound like perpetual motion?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
it's a motor of small principle,
that of subducing or redacting the normal and inherent
geometrical balance of shapes under air pressure
The plane allows the foot to catch a differential bias theoretically.
I can't call it perpetual motion here, but I'm happy that you have let me speak this far.
It will require maintenance of the teflon race, nylon feet.
The pressure will bleed some

I hope it's interesting

hmm, pressure may be an energy(not sure?), but yes, conventionally speaking without relief,
you cannot have movement.

This is something I have thought of, and it seems this site is a good sounding board
To practically assemble to see, I will fabricate and 3d print

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

I think Littleinch has condensed what is questionable about your motor. It appears your design has multiple points of sliding friction at the 'feet' (critically at the 'toe') and in the articulated joints' and presumably they must seal angainst the side closure plates. You may be fighting among many other issues huge frictional losses. 3D printing may not provide the proper surfaces. But if you have the printer and time . . .

Interesting design - good luck! Nice 3D model.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

gibberish
/ˈdʒɪb(ə)rɪʃ/
noun
unintelligible or meaningless speech or writing; nonsense.
"he talks gibberish"

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
my gibberish on this one is just explaining a simple idea,
that probably doesn't work.
If a surface area is in a pressure chamber,
it uncontestably is pushed,
can one direction of surface fight another successfully if one has more area, further?

There is no seal at the side plates other than the rim, it's not needed in theory
-the spokes and feet need no seal to the enclosing plates

thanks for the compliment on the drawing,
there is some little friction, but I think quite little,
it will spin permissibly free under a hand push
-where a surface area will quickly gain 10's of kg

if you put pressure to a pneumatic ram,
equally to head and to rod, the head will push the rod out.
This non-sense is supposed to use the same principal,
of more Area having moving advantage

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

A surface in a pressure chamber is not pushed. Pressure acts on all sides of the surface and cancels the forces out. See divers in a hyperbaric chamber. They are not being pushed around any more than the rest of us.

A piston in a conventional engine is pushed because the pressure in the cylinder is higher than the pressure on the crankcase. The same pressure pushes in the head and cylinder walls but they are constrained and don't move so no work is done on them.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
the sides of a pressure chamber are pushed imo,
a pressure chamber is required to be very strong because of this
compressed air wants to escape, it pushes at whatever wants to contain it
every vessel will blow out at some point, releasing the 'press'ure

every area in a pressure chamber is pushed the same though,
this is nearly the only way I have thought of to put different
pressures in square inches on the sides of a solid

usually the pressure is equal everywhere in a chamber,
but because the area under the foot doesn't exist somewhat(due to the flat mating),
a different pressure can be created, then therefore theoretically bias
can happen

yes a diver under manufactured pressure is of course not pushed around,
the pressure acts on them everywhere.

In this concept, pressure is not enacted everywhere, the outer of the foot is
redacted or subduced by mating it to the ratchet-like plane. It receives no pressure,
on the outer, the bottom of the foot
This lack of area theoretically creates bias,
because one side of the shape is larger in square inches
-it's pushed harder

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

No, that's not how this works.

I'd still like to know the purpose of this mechanism. One sentence, please. No word salad.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Quote (Uncanny3)

There is no seal at the side plates other than the rim, it's not needed in theory
-the spokes and feet need no seal to the enclosing plates
Yes, I have glanced back at your model and see your feet spring washers are larger diameter than the width of your pusher feet so obviously the sides of the feet do not seal against your side closure plates (not shown). What is not obvious is: is mechanism working as a fan - with each spring-loaded foot acting as a blade with a tip seal at each peripheral edge? If so, what are you trying to do better than an impeller or turbine can achieve?

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
BrianPetersen:
The intention of the mechanism is to be a very efficient motor,
if it worked it would generate electricity when coupled to a generator winding/dyno.

Brian Malone:
The mechanism is spinning hub, spokes and foot/scuffing blocks,
within the exterior housing. The feet will not have a gummy seal,
my intent is they will slide over the race, in a flat to flat mating.
The advantage is that it requires no more than
an initial pressure head, therefore requiring little to no fuel somewhat,
beyond compression needed to start it.
Whether a motor has advantage is a practical thing,
every type of motor should at least be designed perhaps

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Your basic presumption (So the red squares are areas of pressure, which don't occur on the other side of the shape,) is simply not true.

You could feed this thing with 500bar of air and it won't move a single mm because there is no differential pressure.

Just because you can draw a red box and write that something exists doesn't make it so.

"The advantage is that it requires no more than
an initial pressure head, therefore requiring little to no fuel somewhat," This is definition of perpetual motion....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
the idea is that redacted/removed outer face,
doesn't actually cause the pressure inside the vessel to change
-however the theory is that one side of the foot shape has more area
exposed to pressure,
meaning it must be pushed forward circumferentially

I have plotted the area demonstrably with more relevance to the actual
dimension in the coloured top view drawing.
The hand drawing is a concept communicator,
not the real areas, just the idea.
The coloured top view may be the actual area difference moreso

thank you all for your continued engagement

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Maybe a slightly childish question here...

Take the mechanism just as drawn in your second and third diagrams - so no seals, and without having introduced any further pressure. Would you expect that to spin by itself? If not, why not, since it's already immersed in 15ish psi of compressed air?

A.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
heya,
you're quite right, in one atmosphere it's copping pressure
-which is supposed to cause movement.
I hope it's device is amplified by a compression chamber state

I think I know what you mean
-like it's hard to conceive of this moving,
because whatever shape doesn't move in 1 atmosphere,
no matter how I could try to imbalance it

if a wedge moved, we would have used that a very long time ago

If this could absurdly work somehow,
I think that one atmosphere is not enough to break free of all of the frictive surfaces
braking. If we are under 15 psi all the time,
that is not showing on my dial indicators though

...and yes, what about under the ocean, 2 wedges are meant to slide off each other
under water pressure

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Motors turn fluid pressure into mechanical power because fluid under pressure comes in from a high pressure source, expands and transfers energy into a mechanical device in the process of doing so, then leaves the device into a low pressure sink.

I'm not seeing that here. If placed under pressure with nowhere for it to go, it will sit there doing nothing, and no amount of hand-waving explanation will change that. Perpetual motion machines are not allowed, and unlike an arbitrary law of mankind that can be broken, the laws of physics cannot.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

I haven't read everything in detail but... to me the critical flaw is where you say "there is no exhaust". With no exhaust there is no delta-P, no pressure differential. The entire chamber may be pressurized, but it doesn't "know" it is pressurized without some connection to the external environment. Pressure differential causes an unbalanced force, and that unbalanced force causes movement. With no pressure differential, no work can be done. Its one of the three inviolable laws of thermodynamics (exactly which one I'm not sure at the moment). Those laws weren't just made up by some scientist. They were "discovered" as pre-existing laws of physics that apply throughout the universe.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Air pressure acting on the red area in your drawing creates a force that will tend to push your rotor round in the direction you want.

Air pressure acting on the inward-facing surfaces of each piston assembly creates a force that will tend to make the slipper skate down the slope in the opposite direction, with a component resolved in the circumferential direction that's equal and opposite to the force you hope to exploit. This force is harder to picture but it's always going to be there, it's always going to be "equal and opposite" and it's what will always prevent the device from working.

So far as gauges go, you can stick the needles on so they read zero at any pressure that takes your fancy. 0 psia is a less popular choice than you might expect.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

One side of this foot may indeed have more area, but this is irrelevant because the pressure on the other side of the foot is the same pressure, so there is no differential pressure.

No differential pressure, no force and no movement.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
thank you for your assaying,
LittleInch
an example that I'd like to refer to is a pneumatic ram
with both ports connected to the same pressure source
the air pressure is the same,
but the piston head side will defeat the rod end side,
because the piston head has more area
The closed ram will open
This is meant to do that similarly
They have the same pressure, the one with more area has more movement force
zeusfaber
I am willing to accept that the forces forward and backward are in balance perfectly,
it's worth a try though imo -if the balance is equal, the scuffing feet may derive the straight plane as their axial path
if that's so, the redacted area means nothing. Only circumferentially plotting has area imbalance,
which may not be the trajectory/path/plot of the feet
...(edit) after a little further thought, it's probably that which would happen here
The wheel can not circumferentially govern, as the feet don't move to start with.
However, when the feet are mated with outer plane, they are pushed outwards,
not forwards, they can go backwards down the slope, and stop on the tooth.
As soon as the foot is lifted, it requires little force to put it over the next most internal point
...maybe it can go somehow- backwards to the original intent?
Jboggs
yes, this is the accepted convention, to maintain movement in an air powered system,
we need to apply relief/exhaust. I'm trying to think a way out of that
BrianPetersen
a spinning planet is nearly perpetually in motion,
as far as something like that existing

On Tuesday I'll get some steel and start,
also get a quote on the other printed parts soon

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

The ram works because the end of the rod is exposed to a lower pressure causing an unbalance in force.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
perhaps the rod moves because the surface area is different,
it has less pressure area
a pinhead at 30psi, has less motive force than a 1" bar at 30 psi.
perhaps
a large ram will defeat a small one(at the same pressure), because it's exposed to more area,
not because it has a different pressure

1" square bar equates to 30pounds, 1*1/2" square bar is 15 pounds

yes there is a transmission to a lower pressure in a ram

-so in the wheel form of this thing,
I can't send pressure forward or backward,
but I can send pressure inward and outward.
Geometry could turn this into rotation, if it pushed against an angle

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Uncanny3 I am still perplexed where your design will develop a force imbalance. If the spokes and scuffing feet are not sealed/separated from each, and there will be closure plates on the sides of the exterior structure, but you have no exhaust, then your chamber will become an isostatic condition. What magic am I missing?

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

If that explanation of a ram was right you could put one on a submarine all by itself and the water pressure would push it just fine, no propeller required.

Call the Navy and explain how they no longer need a reactor for propulsion. I'll bet they put you right through.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
Brian Malone,
Yes it is a state of dwelling atm,
as far as I can see it too.
The scuffing feet are meant to be governed into a circular condition,
but why would they be,
their mount is planar
and they feel only a linear, not circular pressure
if the circular line was actually the feet's path, it could work,
but the feet move along a straight plane, if they could, not circular

The intended principle is to imbalance area under pressure,
I cannot change the pressure without relief,
but maybe there is some way to manipulate area

I can only generate an inward and outward force,
against the outer wall and the hub,
not a backwards and forwards one at the moment

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
heya peeps,
please assay this one for a concept:-

the rams push outward forcing the main body up the races
when it has climbed as high as the travel allows,
we spin it upside down,
that will release it from the rails.
then the pressure in the chamber,
which is higher than the rams,
will push it closed again.
Then turn it right side up, and the head fall back to start orientation.
Now the redacted face allows it to start climbing again.

How do you like them apples?

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Pressure is applied where (and when), and released where (and when)?

You can turn this thing into an air motor if you do the right things, although I don't see why it would be any more effective (or efficient) than any existing air motor using a crankshaft and pistons and timed valves, or an eccentric rotor and vanes, and it sure looks a whole lot more complicated, and I don't see how the motion profile turns into something useful (for example, rotation of a shaft). You (with a few omissions that we're trying to pin you down on) have (almost) explained the piston, but you haven't explained the cranknshaft, and connecting rod, and valves or porting.

What are you trying to accomplish, that a normal eccentric vane-rotor air motor doesn't do?

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
this is a proof of concept,
a motion that requires no more fuel than an original air head,
if the seals don't leak.
This isn't a motor design, just a proof of concept

pressure from the compressor is applied all the time,
but there is no exhaust/relief

To start a cycle the rams push open,
when they have travelled fully upwards,
the chamber is up-ended.
That allows the pressure in the chamber to close the rams,
as the rams have fallen away from the races
Then the chamber if flipped again,
and the shuttle falls back into a pushing state,
re-starting at the beginning of the cycle again and pushing upwards off the V races

I am trying to accomplish a motion of incredible efficiency,
a motor is a long way off in this concept drawing,
but I haven't seen the error in the motion it may create without relief

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Quote:

pressure from the compressor is applied all the time,
but there is no exhaust/relief

Then everything else you're saying is puffery.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

The sliding face of your triangle piece is exposed to chamber pressure throughout - both when it is in contact with the race and also when it is not. "Redaction" is not a real phenomenon (if it were, we'd have to find a way of making things without plain bearings, because they wouldn't work any more).

If chamber pressure is greater than ram pressure, the rams will retract and then just stay put.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
Here's the 'order of operations' ==> What this is doing is possibly operating a potentially high power ram set,
using gravity as the switch for now


I don't mind it being called puffery,
it can't succeed, I am experimenting

If the faces against rigid things in pressure chambers do catch pressure, this will not work,
so I can believe there is no redaction, subducing or hiding faces in matings,
when I have seen it happen I guess. It made/makes sense to me
-there is atmosphere to bear pressure in a low tolerance mating?

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Energy goes in, nothing useful comes out, making for zero efficiency, which is perfect. A similar result happens in sand timers.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

If light-blue represents pressure and white represents absence (or less pressure) then the transition between frame 1 and frame 2 involves the pressurised fluid performing work between the cylinder block and the yellow things. Step 3 represents no work being done. Step 4 represents no longer any mechanical contact between the pistons and the yellow things, which presumably means the pistons have reached a mechanical travel limit imposed by something else not indicated in the illustrations which is fine. Step 4 does not happen because the yellow things are no longer in contact and cannot transmit any force; pushing the pistons in would requires mechanical work being put back in that precisely offsets that which was done between frame 1 and frame 2. Anything beyond that point is irrelevant because step 4 could not happen as shown.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

"but there is no exhaust/relief"
Didn't we cover this already?

A couple more questions:
- What is "subducing"?
- What is a "redaction" in this context? I always thought it meant to black out selected words in a document.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

@Uncanny3

I think you are missing some information on pneumatic cylinder construction. The two ports feed to either side of the piston. The rod is just a way to transmit the motion of the piston. If you apply pressure to both ports, the piston will not move.

Here is a cutaway of a cylinder. The image is courtesy of Tameson.com

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

This closed system has frictional losses in the piston/ram seals and no outside connection to do work, so outside energy is expended to flip the system 180 degrees on some type of cycle. Energy that is not provided by the inside system. As 3DDave has noted, your mechanism is analogous to a sand timer. I am missing the goal of the experiment.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

kjoiner - applying pressure to both sides is how gas struts work. The piston moves because the pressure on the rod area is unopposed by the outside atmosphere. Gas struts have a hole in the piston to allow material to flow from one side to the other, through an orifice to control the speed.

Still, odd to have a motor that requires another motor to drive it.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Uncanny3 -
"The rod is just a way to transmit the motion of the piston."
And... what causes the piston to move? The delta-P, the difference in pressures on each side. And where does that pressure difference come from? It comes from the fact that the air on one side of the piston comes from a compressor at a high pressure level. The air on the other side goes back through an open valve to exhaust to atmosphere. If that exhaust to atmosphere did not exist, there would be no delta-P, and thus no motion of the piston.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
I have attached better pictures of the drawings.
It has been pointed out to me that the rams do not move together, requiring a linkage.
Here is best linkage==>


3DDave: a constancy of pressure goes in, useful movement goes out, no more force is applied,
useful movement comes out in this conjecture. A sand timer falls, this has energy enough to push upwards perhaps.
It's potentially a sand timer that goes backwards.

BrianPetersen: aqua/turquoise represents a pressure of 0, white represents a pressure of 1.5,
and bright medium blue represent the rams, which have a pressure of 1.
The pressures are air pressure, not hydraulic (slightly different, as air can be compressed).

Step 3: it is a small work, using the collected energy to spin the vessel 180 degrees
Step 4,5,6,7: are now perhaps relevant, as the white area(compression chamber) has more pressure than the bright medium blue rams

Jboggs: It is conventional understanding that an air pressure cannot sustain movement without decompression or relief.
I am trying to get around that by switching surface areas that are actively receiving pressure.
Subducing or redaction are both the same concept, largely the entirety of concept.
Both mean to take away or hide a surface area from pressure using a flat to flat mating.
Proposedly, if a surface is not exposed to air pressure, it is not pushed.
Yes, I understand the rod end has less exposure to pressure, thus defeated.
This most recent idea(the dual ram) uses different surface areas though,
More surface area will defeat a lesser one, a large bore working against a smaller one.











RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
Brian Malone: I hope it's analogous to a sand timer that moves inversely,
pushing upwards, not falling. Transmission to the rotation can be pneumatically applied.
This could be done by charging a ram, the engaging switches at extant point in travel.
the best way to get energy/movement out of this thing is to use another air compression/transmission

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

I had one with buoyant sand, which went up.

I do enjoy trying to figure out what part of physics perpetual motion device makers don't know and then seeing how far they will go to avoid acknowledging that part. More, when they deny they are working on a perpetual motion machine as they don't understand that the principle they are depending on, if true, would make such machines possible.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
3DDave:
the principle is that if mated to a fixed flat mating,
pressure is removed, allowing pressure to become immediate or not
a pressure switch

I hope it's fun thought anyway

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

"conventional understanding"?
It's not just "conventional understanding". It's an unchangeable physical principle. There is no "way around it". If that is really what you're trying to do, you're wasting your time.

A suggestion - help us all understand your concept a little better by highlighting the pressurized areas. ALL pressurized areas.

If your concept is based on the premise that equal pressures on unequal areas produce unequal forces, you are right. In cases like that, the devil is in the details. Details like friction, leaky seals, etc. Or physical details like how to create an object that has a different total exposed area depending on your viewpoint.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
this does have the have the relative pressures delineated,
however I'm having a hell of a time making 2 pistons move equally

so forget one, and let a bind work perhaps,
I am struggling to make 2 pistons work at once together

the premise is that unequal areas will move equal pressures

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

Do you mean the (0), (1), and (1.5)? Are those the relative pressures?

What are the squiggles supposed to represent?

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

3

Quote (Uncanny3)

The principle is that if mated to a fixed flat mating, pressure is removed, allowing pressure to become immediate or not

This explains why, when you place an A4 sheet of paper flat on the desk, it exerts a force of over 6kN on the desk and why, if you put more than two sheets of paper on your desk at the same time, the desk usually collapses.

A.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

@3DDave
"kjoiner - applying pressure to both sides is how gas struts work. The piston moves because the pressure on the rod area is unopposed by the outside atmosphere. Gas struts have a hole in the piston to allow material to flow from one side to the other, through an orifice to control the speed.
Still, odd to have a motor that requires another motor to drive it."


Exactly. The hole in the piston allows for a damping action so the gas spring does not extend rapidly. I think what Uncanny is missing is that something like a gas spring requires an outside force like an SUV hatchback being closed to compress it. It won't compress by itself. A pneumatic cylinder requires compressed air to cause the piston to move. To create motion, the air would need to be alternately routed through either port. If both ports are pressurized, the piston will reach a state of equilibrium and stop moving.

The subducing ram requires something to flip it over.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

If both ports are equally pressurized that equilibrium is a fully extended cylinder with the piston stopped at the end of the cylinder.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

... and the force the raised hatch is applying externally to compress the piston rod, plus the force the piston is applying against its internal stop, balances internal pressure X rod area.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
3DDave: yes- 0, 1 & 1.5 are the relative pressures
The squiggles are air lines

zeusfaber: a piece of paper inside a compression chamber, against a fixed flat,
would transmit the exposed face's pressure to the hidden one I think

kjoiner: Flipping it is possible, I can charge a ram with the upward movement,
and engage a switch at a point in travel to spin it.
Then disengage the charged ram for inverse

I think hiding the faces may be a little impossible,
the rams will always be driven back by the 1.5 pressure against their 1.
Also making them move in absolute unison seems nigh impossible also

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

If there is enough force to lift it there is enough force to keep it there when flipped. There needs to be a sequencing valve to change the pressures.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
3D Dave: yes agreed, the idea would be to charge a ram(inside the chamber) that transmits
it's force to one outside the chamber(that spins it), and engage/disengage that outside one with switch valves,
which could be done with the travel, or manually to begin with

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

So, you are now granting that there is going to be high-pressure fluid flow IN together with low-pressure fluid flow OUT?

Or is there still a black hole inside that is somehow gathering up and collecting all the inbound mass flow rate so that it never escapes, the black hole just keeps getting heavier and heavier as mass flow enters and never escapes?

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
BrianPetersen:
It's pneumatic, not hydraulic
there is no usual exhaust,
a compressed air out(which is problematic to apply in a ram actually(it will not extend again)),
would be the work it theoretically does

It does not gather liquid mass. it is under a constant air pressure,
this concept. The rams and chamber are pressurized with air once,
to begin with. Then movement is enabled by hiding the 2 light green surfaces from
the higher pressure chamber. The hidden surfaces can switch pressures,
one higher than the other. The chamber has a higher air pressure than
the pistons/rams which push the triangles.

JBoggs: that concept "the premise that equal pressures on unequal areas produce unequal forces"
is the thrust of this contention(the whole thought experiment, and some failed real world ones also).
Since I too know that to be the case, can this principle be used to generate movement without relief,
by switching shapes or pressure zones/areas under pressure? How can switching surface areas be applied?

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

See - it's a perpetual motion machine.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
...in my dreams
thanks for being a sounding board,
if such efficient mechanisms are not discussed here,
thanks for the conceptual exercise

The subject can be pneumatic surface redaction theory,
not hand waving perpetual motion machine if you would
like to continue.

I need to prepare a paper and the 3d model,
I'm hoping that a school in the US wants to pick it up.
Air is largely safe and this could be educational.
It's not chemical or nuclear energy after all,
trying it will not hurt

I guess I do wonder how to get energy out of it then

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

I can sort of understand the ram concept, but the key issue is that as / if the cylinder retracts, the overall volume of air increases as the ram is slowly reduced in length, hence there is air flow into the ram or the pressure slowly reduces so work is being done.

I can't see this applying to your conceptual machine. For energy to come out of this or movement, there needs to be energy in. This is either more air flowing in and some out, or a reduction in pressure over time which is then topped up, hence more energy.

You simply cannot get energy out when you're not putting energy in.

In your 1-7 steps, the pistons can only extend is the internal pressure (1) is more than the external pressure. At point 6 and 7 the external pressure is noted as 1.5. Hence going back to one, the pistons will not expand unless than 1.5 pressure is vented out.

Or put another way, between 1 and 2 you need to increase the volume of air at pressure 1 to make the cylinders extend. That is energy.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

"can this principle be used to generate movement without relief, by switching shapes or pressure zones/areas under pressure?"
I can't see how, since any such "switching" would require some energy input, some work. Think about it - you would have to de-pressurize one area while pressurizing another. That process would require some energy input no matter how you do it.

Another principle to remember - there is no such thing as a friction-free perfect seal.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

I salute the persistence of the OP and wish this person well. Post a video of your invention someday.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

(OP)
LittleInch:
The entirety of current concept is that the cylinders at pressure 1 can extend, as their outward(horizontal) faces
are hidden from the pressure 1.5 . The chamber pressure has no atmosphere to bear a pressure,
therefore they can again extend. The flat matings will want to be very low tolerance.
If that doesn't happen, I don't know exactly what to do. I will still try to think of how to hide
pressure faces against rigid things

JBoggs:
A switch could use less energy than is gathered from a potentially powerful movement
-yes I agree that efficiency is lossing to various factors in almost all devices

dvd:
Thanks mate, I can't believe it, I may have some funding,
and smc make the rams I need. I'll do video sure
It's pretty useless in concept form, but concept goal would be unreal anyway

I have power coming out of it with a ram possibly, need to think more but maybe we can pull on the rod end

I need to prepare concise papers for this, to explain seems difficult

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

"I may have some funding"

Well someone has more money than sense.

Keep us in the never ending energy free loop please.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Subducing Head:-pneumatic motor idea

2
There are two things where being able to provide a convincing explanation will make or break the deal and these are where your concise papers should focus.

Derive formulae for the forces acting on all three faces of the triangular piece. Don't forget to include the chamber pressure force acting on the exposed face of the triangle. You should find that if the ram and chamber pressures are equal, there's no net force on the triangle.

Explain why, with the ram pressure smaller than chamber pressure, you expect the ram to extend into the chamber. Consider what happens as the device is just about to reach stage seven: The gap is closing, the faces are very nearly in contact, but there's still a thin film of air between them. What happens to that air next? What makes that happen? At what stage does that film of air reach equilibrium - and then how much pressure does it exert? What effect does this have on the ram?

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