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GRE pipe for chilled water system.
4

GRE pipe for chilled water system.

GRE pipe for chilled water system.

(OP)
I lack prior experience with GRE pipe. For one of our hotel projects, we were considering replacing the ABS pipe with MS (ERW black steel pipe). However, there have been suggestions that GRE pipe may outperform steel pipe in a chilled water system. Does anyone have experience using GRE in chilled water system? Any insights would be greatly appreciated, as our planning is still in the initial stage.

The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while stupid ones are full of confidence.
-Charles Bukowski-

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Quote (moideen)

I lack prior experience with GRE pipe.

Therein lies the biggest issue. GRE is not a different form of steel or even pipe like PVC or ABS. it is it's own speciality and system design, construction and operation.

It can be great but is often difficult to install correctly, very easy to damage / crack / wear away, requires a LOT of vendor specific fittings, requires installers experienced in its installation and if you want to have constant trouble / leaks / maintenance issues for the next 20 years then use GRE. It is very difficult to QA check joints as you go along until you fill it and then test it.

It is a great material in theory, but the reality of installation and operation is rather more troublesome.

Buried flat firewater main or water system inside a plant room or process plant site - maybe - especially for something like salt water.

Chilled water in a building. Hmmmmmm

To adapt your quote a bit

The problem with the world is that intelligent people (engineers with experience) are full of doubts, while stupid onesGRE salesmen are full of confidence.

IMHO.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

2
One disadvantage is that its susceptible to pressure surges - even below design pressure. This often occurs in fire water systems especially if you have elevation differences.

--- Best regards, Morten Andersen

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

(OP)
Thanks LI and Morten. I'll be meeting the GRE man in person in Dubai in the coming days. When we initially met, he offered a 50-year warranty! He seems to be concentrating on sales. I have requested relevant documents and project references done previously.

The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while stupid ones are full of confidence.
-Charles Bukowski-

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Look closely at the terms. Warranty doesn't cover lost revenue. Warranty doesn't cover of gaining access for repair.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Warranty doesn't cover installation or design errors or leaks, only that the pipe he's selling you won't leak.

The warranty is basically useless.

The references will basically be useless as well as all they did was supply the materials. But try and find the maintenance engineer in any of the properties they mention and talk to them....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Finding an experienced installer is critical. the joints can be a real pain, but when they are right they are great.
This material also has higher thermal expansion than metal, so the design will need to allow for that.
It also has a lower modulus so it will require more support.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

If you drop it it might not break then but will a few years later (they call it "bruising", like an apple does when you drop it.

And any movement will wear a hole in it.

With chilled water and pressure it will contract quite a lot as the Poisson ratio is quite high - close to 0.6

And it doesn't' like being bent.

All in all it's a really great material, just not really suited to buildings with multiple joints and connections and stresses and supports and an installer that says he knows what he's doing but doesn't. And doing anything after you've fitted it - now that's a world of pain.

You say GRE might "out perform" steel pipe. In what sense exactly? That's a very vague statement if you don't mind me saying so.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

I second the question for what "outperform" means. What are you trying to get the system to do that FRP would be a better option? Long life, more flexibility, inexpensive materials?

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Why use cheap ERW pipe, can you not afford seamless pipe?

What is this "chilled water" ? Is it made with RO water doped with oxygen scavenger and biocide, and is this a dilute ethylene glycol solution ?

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Dear Moideen

Jointing of GRE piping is expensive compared to other non metallic piping. Why u decide to change ABS piping

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

(OP)
@EngrPaper
Steel pipe materials deteriorate over time as a result of scale and corrosion, necessitating chemical treatments for protection. This results in higher maintenance expenditures. GRE pipes, on the other hand, do not require such treatments, leading in cost savings and waste reduction. Furthermore, GRE marketers claim that insulation is unneeded because to their decreased conductivity, but I question the feasibility of this claim, especially at ambient temperatures ranging from 45 to 50 °C.

The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while stupid ones are full of confidence.
-Charles Bukowski-

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

(OP)

@nabeel3
ABS piping has been causing numerous issues for the past decade. The curing time for chilled water pipe repairs takes hours, making it impractical to perform repairs in an active hotel building without shutting down operations.

The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while stupid ones are full of confidence.
-Charles Bukowski-

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

(OP)

@georgeverghese
Switching to seamless piping would significantly escalate costs. Here, we typically use black steel ERW schedule 40 PIPE for projects, ranging from small to large, that involve direct municipal water supply.

The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while stupid ones are full of confidence.
-Charles Bukowski-

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Moideen

Have u tried CPVC Pipes?

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

(OP)
I have not seen CPVC in chilled water systems; it is primarily reserved for domestic plumbing applications

The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while stupid ones are full of confidence.
-Charles Bukowski-

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Steel pipes only deteriorate if you don't look after them.
A closed system like a chilled water just needs a good dosing with anti corrosion and oxygen scav and then each time if you drain the system.
Then should last for decades.

GRE is in theory great for such purposes, but design and installation need high levels of experience and competence.
there is no way on earth a GRE pipe will insulate sufficiently to stop condensation and heat ingress. The fact that the salesman told you that should create some doubts as to everything else he's telling you.

But the installation is the key. In UAE and Oman there are some good installers, but tend to want more money. It is money well spent. Don't believe anyone when they you they CAN do it, (but haven't done it before).

You need to support the pipes much better than steel or PVC, they expand and move more than steel and are just different. GRE pipes with small supports can wear away the pipe in a few years or months.

Most importantly each vendor is different in terms of the material properties, the fittings available and even the size of the pipe itself. So you're locked into one supplier. if they go bust or stop supplying then you're in big trouble.

If you think repairing PVC is difficult and time consuming you clearly haven't seen GRE. It is an utter shit show.

Also forget doing any modifications once you've designed it and built it.

As for leak testing....

Find another hotel or few where it has been fitted or ask for references and names etc and go ask the poor maintenance man what he thinks of GRE piping in a hotel.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Hi,
"Steel pipe materials deteriorate over time as a result of scale and corrosion, necessitating chemical treatments for protection. This results in higher maintenance expenditures."
Where did you get this info? Did you consult a chemical treatment company about the requirement and cost? Always used Steel pipe, Indonesia, China, Thailand.
BTW this is part of operation cost not maintenance.
Pierre

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

(OP)
@LittleInch : You've been a big help, Little Inch. I now have enough information to start preparing a technical counter report against GRE. Thank you very much.

The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while stupid ones are full of confidence.
-Charles Bukowski-

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

(OP)
@pierreick
I agree with you, sir. We have a chilled water system that's been operational for 20 to 40 years, using steel pipes. While some sections are in good condition, others have deteriorated, largely due to variations in the diligence of the individuals responsible for chemical treatment maintenance. Some follow proper treatment protocols, while others do not.

The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while stupid ones are full of confidence.
-Charles Bukowski-

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

moideen,

No problem - we've said enough, but please respect the forum and let us know what the final outcome is and why.

We can learn as well from the actions and decisions of others.

LI

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

(OP)
The top management is now convinced that GRE is not the right choice. To support this decision, I presented recent damages to GRE pipes used in a 7-star hotel in Dubai, along with a technical report outlining our discussions. The pictures and images of the cracks were provided by the piping contractor. However, today I was asked to explore the potential use of PPR piping. It appears that some salespeople can be quite persuasive with their products. Anyway, I have limited knowledge of PPR piping, which is primarily used for domestic plumbing and transfer pumping systems, and its suitability for chilled water systems, especially in multi-story buildings. I was shown a LinkedIn post where PPR is mentioned as being used for chilled water systems.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/alternative-black-s...






The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while stupid ones are full of confidence.
-Charles Bukowski-

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Start a new thread....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

I am generally not a fan of PP/HDPE for chill water just because it has such a high coefficient of thermal expansion that shrinkage gets a little more interesting to manage. I have never heard of PPR, but if you don't have anyone with a good track record using the stuff, I would stay away. "But I saw on LinkedIn" doesn't really bode well in technical review.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

PPR apparently is "Poly Propylene Random co-polymer", i.e. all the problems of PP and HDPE in a new, less well known package.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

I don't know exactly what its COE is but PE is about 10 times steel so needs a lot of flexibility for chilled water. Looking around it also seems to not like UV, but that might not be an issue inside a hotel, but there are signs that it is more brittle and less flexible at lower temperatures.

Looks like you fuse it together like PE.

Must admit I had never heard of it before, but not really sure why it's any better or much different than PE? or PVC.

No idea about cost either.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

For a critical service utility like chilled water that may be running through inaccessible nooks and crannies all over a SEVEN star hotel, I would have thought the client would have insisted on painted seamless SS316 or SS316L pipe and SS fittings. Is 7 star only skin deep ?

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Painted SS piping in a damp chill water application (under insulation) is a recipe for disaster.

The best system would be the class 400 MIL-F-1183 fittings and brass piping. Velocities already need to be low for noise so copper based alloys will be well suited. The fittings are not terribly expensive and relatively easy to install.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Oops, overlooked this requirement for insulation. With cellular or foam glass insulation for damp applications, thermal sprayed aluminum on SS piping is preferable to prevent corrosion under insulation in coastal or marine environments.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

Quote (george)

Is 7 star only skin deep ?

I thought you lived in Dubai?? Barely skin deep I would say....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: GRE pipe for chilled water system.

@LI, Haven't been to the ME so far; some of my work colleagues have. Does seem weird what goes on out there with posh shopping malls hardly anyone goes to. On the other hand, take a look at Scotland now - Dundee apparently has the highest incidence of cocaine /crack overdose in the whole of Europe.

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