Train crash in Ohio
Train crash in Ohio
(OP)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-train-derailment...
Note the mention of extremely low temperatures.
I suspect that is the cause*.
And I suspect the train crew should have been told to operate at restricted speed, because of that possibility.
And/or the trackage should have been installed taking into account these temperatures.
spsalso
*I'm talking about the effects of rail contraction at cold temperatures. A rail joint could have failed. Or rail could have been pulled up on a curve. I suppose a rail could even have snapped.
Besides restricted speed, there's also the running of an inspection car ahead of the train.
Note the mention of extremely low temperatures.
I suspect that is the cause*.
And I suspect the train crew should have been told to operate at restricted speed, because of that possibility.
And/or the trackage should have been installed taking into account these temperatures.
spsalso
*I'm talking about the effects of rail contraction at cold temperatures. A rail joint could have failed. Or rail could have been pulled up on a curve. I suppose a rail could even have snapped.
Besides restricted speed, there's also the running of an inspection car ahead of the train.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I would guess the route could be back up in two or three days.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Approximate location https://www.google.com/maps/place/East+Palestine,+...
EAST PALESTINE TRAIN DERAILMENT; East Palestine officials give update on train derailment fire; by: Anna Marsick, Megan Lee, Stan Boney, Hanna Erdmann, Abigail Cloutier, Noelle Haynes; Posted: Feb 3, 2023 / 10:16 PM EST; Updated: Feb 4, 2023 / 02:16 PM EST
==========Added 4PM EST
Ohio village remains under state of emergency after train derailment, fire Derailment happened a little before 9 p.m. on Friday; WTAEUpdated: 3:14 PM EST Feb 4, 2023
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.goshennews.com/news/national_news/trai...
I also see that there's a track switch right "under" the wreck (feeding the industrial building below the tracks). That might be the location of the problem.
They move the scrap off of the roadway, and then start track repair/replacement. The (former) freight cars usually sit to the side for awhile, as there's then no rush.
I expect crews and equipment are starting to show up already, waiting for the fire to be extinguished. I believe the track will be operational within a week.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
"A mechanical issue with a rail car axle caused the fiery derailment..."
"Michael Graham, a board member of the [NTSB], said at a news conference that the three-member train crew received an alert about the mechanical defect 'shortly before the derailment'..."
I am astounded that the NTSB would make a statement like this so soon after the event. Astounded in a good way, I think.
The details are sure to be interesting. Well, to SOME people, anyway.
I'm also astounded that the fire apparently hasn't burned out, yet. My, my.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
"Residents near the site of a train derailment that sparked a massive fire in East Palestine, Ohio, were urged to evacuate immediately Sunday night due to the risk of an explosion, authorities said.
“Within the last two hours, a drastic temperature change has taken place in a rail car, and there is now the potential of a catastrophic tanker failure which could cause an explosion with the potential of deadly shrapnel traveling up to a mile,” Gov. Mike DeWine warned in a statement Sunday."
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
VINYL CHLORIDE is not a chemical to be trifled with.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I suspect they have a hot box detector in the area, and that is how they know it was an axal problem. But in the area of switches there is usually a slow order for the speed limits on the switches. But that would depend on what kind of switch there is.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I suspect the fires are intentionally being allowed to burn under the guise of safety but also as a means of limiting the necessary cleanup. Not only is surface spread an issue with liquids but also ground soak, so while extinguishing and recapture of contaminants seems ideal a big raging fire to cook it all into the atmosphere is sometimes preferrable.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
But:
https://archive.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/with-2...
I brought the cold up because of a recollection of a derailment in maybe West Virginia, that I recall being a "rail snap". I don't have anything beyond that recollection, but it did stick in my mind. While there is rail testing done, with additional testing done in the Yukon and Alaska, that does not mean that the track designers, installers, or maintenance people made their track conform to those findings.
Quote from Michael Graham, NTSB
"We have obtained two videos which show preliminary indications of mechanical issues on one of the railcar axles."
They also found a place where the derailment happened, aways uptrack outside the "restricted area". The point of derailment can be quite a bit earlier than the actual crash of a train. There have even been derailments that re-railed themselves.
I am surprised that there is video, if it came from a hotbox or dragging equipment detector. In the olden days, there was a simple automated radio transmission to the engineer (and likely elsewhere). Video sounds like a great idea, if you can pull it off.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
With the reduced cooling from inside, there's a risk that the fire outside will heat the tank walls to the point where they fail, leading to a sudden release of pressurised, boiling, flammable fluid.
Heat Induced Tears aren't nice.
A.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Broken rails do occur but are rare.
Reference 49 CFR §213.119 Continuous Welded Rail (CWR); Plan Content
RE: Train crash in Ohio
What is the restricted area?
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Approximately, the area of the smashed up and burning cars, plus what ever safe distance the fire department (or whoever is making the decision) designated. I believe they even arrested someone for entering.
The NTSB guy said his people couldn't enter the crash site, and had to use drones instead. They also must have trekked up the track and found a boo-boo. That will frequently be suddenly appearing scrape marks on the railroad ties.
Also of interest is that the vinyl chloride is going to be emptied from the tank cars:
"The process we’re going to do today, we’re going to place a small shaped charge, it’s going to create a hole about 2 to 3 inches into the tank car. This will allow the material to come out of the tank car, it’ll go into a pit and trench that we have dug and set up for this operation. Inside that trench will be flares … That will then light off the material..."
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
sorry... I didn't realise it was the area of the crash site. Uptrack being the area 'behind' the crash?
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Its on a tripod aimed perpendicular to the surface a produces a lovely little predictable hole exactly where you want.
I suspect tug given a day with a Sapper you would absolutely love what you can do with bang. The big spectacular explosions are to be honest boring anyone can do that. Bit of a fart and two bits of metal fall apart after 5 mins work by someone that knows what they are doing with no ego and just want a job done is just magic in action. I was never in that league but its frustrating sometimes not being able to use it for certain jobs and having to take a higher risk because its not available.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://twitter.com/TammyTsai365/status/1622029307...
Like I said, the above may or may not work.
I would guess a failed bearing, rather than an axle. There was a hot box detector 20 miles before the crash site that apparently alerted to a possible problem. Very near the crash site, there was another that said there very definitely was a problem. And then the train crashed.
It's not clear to me where the doorbell camera was, other than being between the two detectors.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
There are no modern cars having plane journal bearings, so we may have a rare roller bearing failure.
title-49 section-215.115 Roller Bearing Periodic inspection Requirements
Timken's service limits for some of it's rail car axle bearings attached.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Norfolk Southern statement:
"On the morning of February 7, Norfolk Southern and its contractors were allowed to begin clearing the site where a derailment occurred on February 3 in East Palestine, Ohio. As of today, all cars have been cleared from the site. Service has been restored to mainline 2.
While this allows for a route through the site, customers should expect availability delays of at least 24 hours on shipments moving between Cleveland and the Northeast via Pittsburgh, PA due to residual congestion and continued efforts to restore service to mainline 1."
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Yup. My grandfather was a master with dynamite thanks to frequent practice on the farm. He dug ditches and ponds, removed stumps and "widow-maker" trees, split logs both for firewood and to fit his sawmill, made pavers and tons of smaller fill rock for building road, etc. Unfortunately he didnt trust others enough to pass along his knowledge or grandfathered ag blasting license.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://euroweeklynews.com/2023/02/13/potential-en...
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/TRAIN%2...
FYI: No updates on status of Malt Liquor
RE: Train crash in Ohio
. . . As it turns out, Norfolk was one of three major lines to announce trials of one-man crews for large trains such as this. Currently they can operate a two-member crew, per the December ‘22 contract just passed by Congress, and this particular train may have been technically two-member crew, with an additional trainee making three. One catch22 from the new railroad contract is provision to allow non-union shops to maintenance the cars, so some feathers are seriously getting ruffled here that an apparent bearing failure could cause this.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
NS has provided this document to EPA.
I don't see how the size of the crew would have made a difference in this crash. A one-person "crew" would not have made it any worse than it was.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://euroweeklynews.com/2023/02/14/update-train...
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I just don't see how it would apply to this crash. There WAS a full crew on board.
What I do think is that if they still ran cabooses, and if there was the typical olden days crew count in that car (conductor and rear brakeman), and if one or both of them were in the cupola watching the train, THEN there's a strong possibility that they would have seen the failing truck and stopped the train in time. Since the train was so long, the chance to have been in a viewing situation might have been minimal to none.
That said, cabooses have been essentially gone for 35 years, and there has not been an incredible rise of train wrecks in that time.
But that's kinda old news, now.
My personal view is that I don't want a train weighing 15,000 tons and traveling at 60 mph to be in the control of only one person. Perhaps some of that Real Science Research would prove my fears unfounded. Or not.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Erpg-3 of vinyl chloride is 20,000 ppm. Erpg-3 of phosgene is 1.5 ppm. That, combined with all the HCl released (ERPG-3 of 150 ppm) makes me wonder if a larger hazard was created via the burn.
Would not a safer alternative have been to deliver initiator (drone drop?) to the pool of drained VC and let it polymerize, locking in a majority of the chemical as non-haz PVC?
People who work with VC, thoughts? Would autopolymerization temp have thermally degraded most of the VC and resulted in a worse outcome than burning?
RE: Train crash in Ohio
As my dad used to say, "Don't pet sweaty things..." or something like that. I have no issue with American news printing weather issues about Australia or New Zealand, or for that matter printing stuff about earthquakes in Turkiye (aka Turkey)... I'm not too sure when the new spelling arrived.
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Not like American news is known for its responsible, unbiased, nonpolitical reporting.
MTG has the most irresponsible report I've seen so far. Lol.
Euronews is probably the least biased source, unfortunately which relatively few Americans will ever see.
10 days into it and the potential scope is still apparently unknown.
Fox headlines "Nuclear Winter"
https://www.foxnews.com/media/ohio-train-derailmen...
Don't look up. Dont look at the river. Back to school.
Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Sometimes the journal would run dry, Resulting in a Hot Box. Hot boxes almost always will trail a smoke cloud, easily seen from the rear of the train. The failed roller bearing which is glowing incandescent in the video posted above, may not have smoked much, and is harder to see from the rear of the train.
The trackside monitors were reported to have observed that the bearing was first failed, and then much worse. The response criteria likely will come into question.
Is it better to stop, and replace the car axle in the field (blocking the line), or pull the car to a siding? It is likely that if the train stopped the axle would have welded to the truck frame making it impossible to move without skidding the wheels on that axle.
Oil Lubricated journal (obsolete)
Roller Bearing Failure Modes in railway applications are a well understood problem.
Attached ROLLER BEARING FAILURE MECHANISMS TEST AND WHEEL ANOMALY TEST REPORT; Federal Railroad Administration Office of Research and Development, June 1992
Attachment would not attach here, I will try further down in the list.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Example of worst case modelling of a chlorine tank car release, for the insurance industry:
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Attached ROLLER BEARING FAILURE MECHANISMS TEST AND WHEEL ANOMALY TEST REPORT; Federal Railroad Administration Office of Research and Development, June 1992
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I know well the effect of a Cl2 railcar. I was in Columbia SC when a derailed Cl2 railcar killed 9 people.
My question above was related to the relative toxicity of vinyl chloride as compared to HCl. It seemed like they created a greater immediate hazard by burning. Perhaps the long-term carcinogenic risk was much greater than the short term acid vapor?
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I think its a case of "damned if you do and damned if you dont" But you idea to polymerized the vinyl chloride seems novel and something that might have value in future emergency preparedness? This would require gear and chemicals to be ready (or readily obtainable) at various location but i thin it sound interesting.
--- Best regards, Morten Andersen
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
‘32 Nasty:’ Rail Workers Say They Knew the Train That Derailed in East Palestine Was Dangerous
A freight train carrying toxic chemicals derailed 50 miles outside Pittsburgh, forced thousands to evacuate, and created a toxic cloud. Workers knew the train had safety issues.
https://deal.town/vice/32-nasty-rail-workers-say-t...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
An obvious direction here would be to apply condition monitoring to trains that carry hazardous cargo. Maybe even sensitive cargo (people). A simple bearing temperature sensor PLUS a policy that requires investigation or temperature anomalies would have prevented this derailment.
Fusible link type sensing would make the system easy to implement but would probably cause a lot of false alarms. Ethernet based sensors make multiplexing a cinch, real time reading of every sensor is possible. Temp sensors are so inexpensive redundancy doesn't have any significant obstacles.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Edited to remove *names* of involved parties. I don't want to be slanderous.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
To identify this heat, Hot Axle Box & Hot Wheel (HABD/HWD) detection units are mounted at the track side.
Both on board and wayside condition monitoring have maintenance requirements. The spacing for trackside units needs to consider the risk related to the typical length of an outage. This could be a point examined by the NTSB.
I doubt either is an inherently better, they could be complimentary.
An addvert for an on board condition monitoring module. https://rail-vision.com/rolling-stock/on-board-con...
SKF's version https://www.skf.com/group/industries/railways/solu...
WABTEC's version https://www.wabteccorp.com/digital-electronics/sig...
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
This lubricant meets Association of American Railroads specification M-942-98 "Journal Roller Bearing Grease". The specification seems to mostly be met with a calcium grease. Normally re-lubing these bearings is a depot level repair performed only when the axle is remove from a truck.
Mobil Arapen RB 320
Timkin "Rail Journal Roller Bearing Grease Weepage Inspection Guide" attached.
I was not able to find a recommended grease service life. I suspect that the grease service interval is longer than the axle service interval (things like crack inspection, wheel truing, ect).
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Timkin Guide to TRACKSIDE INSPECTION OF ROLLER BEARINGS - attached.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
A Failed Defect Detector and the Train Derailment at East Palestin
It is perhaps important to note that the Cumberland Mine Railroad while being a class 1 railroad does not have track connections to any other railroad. It is a coal only railroad.
This clip was posted after a derailment (Cumberland Mine Railroad) that resulted from a defective bearing that did not lock up the axle. The bearing end of the axle was cut completely through.
Coal Car Derailed - Axle was Cut in Half!
This is a typical result of an undetected bearing failure that does not lock up the axle. ( Cumberland Mine Railroad)
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Yes, a train safety rule was repealed in 2018
The Department of Transportation repealed a mandate in 2018 that required safer brakes on trains that carried hazardous materials.
https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/gov...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
The crash happened because a truck failed, and cars derailed.
The cars with vinyl chloride were the third through sixth car behind the first derailed car (which was carrying polyethylene). "Safer brakes" would have had no significant effect on these cars.
SOME of the following cars could have avoided derailment if the cars had better braking, but they would have been among the last cars to go off the rails.
The only way this nasty mess could have been prevented is if you can stop 120 tons moving at perhaps 50 mph in about 5 feet. Repeatedly.
It might be instructive to do some fancy computer simulation to find out how the crash would have developed if "safer brakes" were used. Also of interest would be the results based on the extent of the usage of such brakes in the train.
"Safer brakes" might have helped IF the crew had used them to slow the train to a stop or near stop. The same holds true with regular brakes. It appears they did not, but that will be revealed from the data recorders.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
This type of monitoring infrastructure is also required for transport aircraft. I am sure the railroad bean counters cost/benefit analysis would argue against it, but perhaps it could be regulatory like seats belts were mandated decades ago. Aircraft bean counters and automobile bean counters also fought it, but had to succumb to the need for public safety.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
So the cost to modify those cars would not be carried by railroads, but by the owning entities.
63% of the 1.3 million freight cars in the United States are privately owned (as opposed to railroad owned).
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
In the case of the company I work for, all the cars are leased from a leasing company, and we do our own replacements of axils. But I do know that some cars have been set off because of mechanical problems at really strange locations (at least to me). But then, we don't transport such hazardous materials, only flammable materials.
I believe on tank cars, there are special couplers to prevent a disconnected car coupler from puncturing another car.
But that only works on the coupler, as other things can break.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
A problem with railcars is they rarely come equipped with electrical power. THAT is certainly not insurmountable; simply an added consideration.
Of more import might be that the sensors and likely the related electronics will be under the car, where "things" get kicked up. Or stolen.
Whatever the solution, it's better to base it on the assumption that things will go wrong, things will fail, and things won't get done. But it still works.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
The critical down side (in my non-qualified opinion) is the defect detection is not necessarily real time. For example, given a long train that at current speed would take 10 minutes for all cars to pass the detector (not unusual near populated areas). assume immediately after the third car passes the detector, a flaw develops in one truck of the third car. If the detector picks it up, it will not (I believe) transmit until the End of Train has passed nearly 10 minutes later. If the detector just missed it, you have whatever time lapse is necessary to get to the next detector (often 15-20 miles down the line) plus the 10 minutes after the next detector identifies the flaw on the third railcar before the End of Train and the transmission of the flaw.
I was thinking benefits of on-board sensors would be;
Continuous monitoring;
Real time identification of a parameter that exceeds a limit;
Real time notification to the crew in the cab;
A visual and even an alarm display/sound in the cab regardless of whether or not the crew is monitoring a specific frequency.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I mean it seems like for all the bad press pipelines get, their safety systems and records are way better than the elephant in this room and nobody has apparently been paying much attention to this except for removing RR safety regulations. Could that be correct?
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.aar.org/article/ecp-brakes/#!
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Is the rest true?
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Most safety stats that I've seen show the US system as very comparable to the EU and developed portions of Asia. The issue with making such comparisons tho is that the US system is massive compared to the rest of the world, its like comparing commercial vs non-commercial vehicle drivers.
I dont doubt that modern thermal imagery and AI could detect bearing issues in passing trucks, but I'd be curious to see the technology function as well as the cost analysis. Low-speed bearings aren't giving off a large amount of heat, esp contained in large steel heatsinks hot from braking events.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Could also be an interesting discussion to try determine where the line for ECP breaks should be drawn, though
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about
RE: Train crash in Ohio
ECP braking is not a new thing for railroads. It was used on some high speed passenger trains in the United States starting in the 1930's. Almost 100 years ago. New York Air Brake Company had the DCE brake system, while Westinghouse had the HSC and AHSC systems. Various of the Union Pacific M-10000 trains were equipped with the systems.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
It takes some time for a breaking signal to propagate through a 100+ car train. One of the things ECP breaks were supposed to provide was a breaking signal that could propagate from the rear of the train, which would put the string of cars in tension, minimizing the tendency to jackknife.
If this train was equipped with distributed power, a sort of poor man's ECP will exist as the distributed engines are radio controlled, and can initiate a breaking signal (or dynamic breaking) from wherever in the string the remote engine(s) is located.
I am not aware of any reports that indicated this train used (or did not use) distributed power.
More news soon
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/RRD23MR0...
NTSB to Issue Preliminary Report on East Palestine Derailment - The National Transportation Safety Board will issue its preliminary report Thursday Feb 23 after 10 a.m.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
If the speed was low enough the damage would not have been so great. And if all dangerous cargo rail cars have to have a pre trip inspection, then this sort of thing would be unlikely.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
So let's limit trains with hazardous materials to 10 MPH through populated areas. I assume "populated" includes any place someone plops their old Airstream. If not, how is "populated" defined?
And let's also limit speeds to 10 MPH for trucks and shipping, for the same materials.
As someone who appreciates observing the March of Commerce, I applaud this opportunity to view it in "slow motion".
I'm in. Totally in!
I really should mention, however, that should a "pile o' nastiness" spill out over Protected Lands, that that 10 MPH speed limit will likely end up applying for the entire trip of the load.
Interesting!
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Fortunately we can keep a constant velocity. Not that should make much difference to surface traffic, as I have noticed that not all speed limits are 70mph and hazardous cargos are already prohibited from entering many city centers, or time limited and often being diverted to belt roads circumferencing larger cities. Even aircraft have velocity limits in high traffic zones. I don't think its speed limits that are causing the bulk of delays in delivery of most stuff, but I give you that ocean traffic is relatively pretty slow.
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
This is the likely sticking point of such slow orders.
Then the question is if it is safer to ship these by rail or by truck.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Fun fact, my very first day of university started with Physics 1a and demonstrated this exact principle with a model car on a slope. I would hope that the rail industry never neglects that problem
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about
RE: Train crash in Ohio
as we have chewed on the hot box issue with little actual data, here are some facts.
I make an interpretation here that this bearing failed faster than anticipated by the railroads engineering department. The hot box detectors on this track section are between 10 and 20 miles apart, with the spacing immediately before the failure being 20 miles. Perhaps HBD spacing needs to be 10 miles?
The engineer attempted to slow by dynamic breaking, but after a short while the train automatically applied it's brakes. This likely indicates that the train separated, and the brake pipe became uncoupled. At this point one of the cars had left the track and as a result was de-accelerating faster than the remaining cars in the string. and every thing crumples.
Feb 23 media briefing
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/23/us/ohio-train-derai...
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
One point is the HBD temp. of 253*F above ambient. The doorbell video that circulated showing light flashes from the wheels suggests the sensitivity is limited somewhat.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
In the tugboat industry we have recently been spoiled with inexpensive high-speed engines that make huge horsepower numbers and they're coupled with 360 degree thrusters that can generate 100% thrust in all directions. Early constructions were fine due to conservative factoring but newer constructions are falling back on generalized rules and the hulls are failing.
There may need to be an evaluation of the power of each train relative to construction or configuration.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
The 254 F temperature is simply what the last hotbox detector read, and since that was above 170, the train's operator attempted to stop the train, but a nearly 2-mile long train takes a lot of time and distance to stop, and by the time the train came close to stopping, the truck was already on fire.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Railroads run multiple locomotives. They can easily put 15,000HP on the front of a train. The Union Pacific has been doing so for upwards of 50 years.
EMD produced, in 1969, a 6600 HP locomotive, of which 47 were bought by Union Pacific. It was common to run two of these together, with another "regular" locomotive to achieve the nominal 15,000.
Union Pacific purchased 31 gas turbine locomotives that produced 8500 HP in 1958-61.
And just a wee bit earlier (1944), that railroad operated 25 steam locomotives producing 6200 HP. But rarely in multiple.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
September 2008 (Canon IXUS V)
September 2008 (Canon IXUS V)
September 2008 (Canon IXUS V)
September 2008 (Canon IXUS V)
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_GTELs
Turbine powered locomotives cost less to operate than the UP steam engines they replaced, but are not economical when compared to the diesel locomotives that were put to work in the i960's.
All of the EMD (now progress rail / caterpillar)current offerings for North America are listed at 4300 or 4400 HP.
GE Rail (now WABTEC) most popular locomotives are also this size, but there is an offering at 6600HP
Relevant to our discussion, too much tractive effort at the head end can pull the car string apart. Hence locomotives are distributed along the length of the train to limit coupler tensile and compressive loads on the very long trains of today. I wounder how the NTSB will view distributed power? Did it help or hurt?
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
2 combustable liquid
1 isobutylene
1 butyl acrylate
2 benzene
2 polyethylene
4 polyvinyl
5 petroleum lube oil
1 paraffin wax
On the other hand, shortly behind the mess, there was 9 cars of malt liquor that remained non-derailed. FWIW.
You really can't get "the derailed car clear of the tracks faster so the rest of the cars don't wad up into it". It's pretty much like a crash on the freeway when everyones following WAY too close.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations
RE: Train crash in Ohio
There would have been a big mess anyway. The question is in what way would it be better.
What did happen is the first 22 cars stayed on the track, the next 39 went on the ground, and the remaining 79 cars stayed on the track.
How would EP brakes improve things? How many fewer cars would have crashed?
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
In my personal experience, EP systems tend to be very reliable, I don't know where their complaint comes from. A refrigerated air dryer helps but they're very expensive because everybody puts them in the LP side of the system...
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Of course, you can ask what happens when only one car crashes--does it then hop back on the track?
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
But I wouldn't want to count on it.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I would think dynamic braking would be an excellent choice for slowing a train, based on what the engineer knew. And didn't know. It is quite common for the problem to be sticking brakes; so staying away from brake usage appears to me to be the best choice.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Just sharing a thought. Hitting the brakes isn't always the best remediation to a problem.
There was some complaint from truckers about governors a while back. In the event of a front wheel blowout you're supposed to accelerate at full throttle until everything stabilizes. Trucks running on the governor are not able to accelerate resulting in crashes after a front tire blowout.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
The cars turned completely sideways because each of the preceding cars stopped abruptly, while the following cars did not. Until THEY stopped abruptly.
And etcetera...
When a freight car weighing 120 tons is no longer supported by its trucks, it falls to the ground, engages the ground, and tends to stop very quickly. The following cars keep rolling until they are also stopped abruptly by the various preceding now-stopped cars. The only reason the whole rear of the train did not pile into the crash is that the brakes automatically went into emergency when the crash happened. Plus there was one trailing locomotive which did whatever it automatically does in such a situation.
IF the entire train had been equipped with the previously mentioned EP brakes, several of the final "crash victims" probably wouldn't have.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/25/us/ohio-train-derai...
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
You're right, with EP braking, cars behind the derailment could brake while engines ahead could pull.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYjSEEc--0k
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
So noted in the Youtube video. He mentions letting the train coast for awhile, and then maybe gently braking (as I recall). That's pretty much what the Palestine train did, in that he was already in dynamic because of going downgrade. If he took it off of dynamic, it would speed up. Not the goal in mind. Hence more dynamic.
"You're right, with EP braking, cars behind the derailment could brake while engines ahead could pull."
I don't think so, at least when the train is still in one piece. All EP braking does is get the braking action to commence sooner. Without it, the signal to activate brakes has to travel down the air line. That is not as fast as electricity. With EP, the brakes all go on together. With regular air, it takes "awhile".
After the train has broken apart, it's pretty much all over. As I said, you'd probably save a couple of cars. And that would depend on transmitting signals to cars with the train broken apart. If it uses wires, that wouldn't work. If it uses wireless, it would have to potentially jump past the crashing cars--might not make it.
What EP is good for is running at higher operating speeds, because you get more efficient brake application--RIGHT NOW! You don't have to anticipate as much. Much of railroad operation is anticipation--you're controlling thousands of tons. Sorta like operating a large ocean going ship. But in a straight line.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Since the engineer did NOT know what was going to happen, or even what the problem was,
And since he was already in dynamic (because of the grade),
And since using only the rear one was likely inadequate, and perhaps even less of a brake than what he was already using,
Doing the most conservative stop would be appropriate. Thus an increase in dynamics would be the best solution FOR THE PROBLEM AS HE KNEW IT.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Over covid and pilot redundancy quite a few went to train driving in Europe and never came back.
Apparently the training is a lot longer and a lot more involved than flying a plane.
To be honest we don't get that much training. If you demonstrate you have the jist of it then that's it. And most do. Keep it in a straight line and press the pedals until the antiskid kicks in and max reverse thrust or leave the autobrakes to do the job with max reverse thrust.
The turbo props were manual braking with pretty powerful anti skid. The A220 is auto brakes and your best to leave it alone and let it do its job and concentrate on keeping it on the runway.
I would think trains are the same with emergency braking, the driver triggers it or the dead mans reset and it just does its thing.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Title 49 Subtitle B Chapter II Part PART 240 - QUALIFICATION AND CERTIFICATION OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS Railroads must submit their implementation to US DOT, and can add their own additions. It does look significantly involved.
Normal application of train brakes depends on the skill of the locomotive engineer letting compressed air out of the brake pipe. When the string of cars separates and the brake hose uncouples, the cars closest to the uncoupled hose will apply brakes as fast as the air is released. The brake application will then propagate in both directions down the car string, the engineer is just along for the ride.
Here is an explanation of the train braking system authored by a locomotive engineerNorth American Freight Train Brakes by Al Krug
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
And thankfully we don't have to think or understand as much stopping an aircraft.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://theintercept.com/2023/02/23/east-palestine...
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I haven't done a full power take off in over 14 years. I have though done more than a few max performance decelerations every year.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestin...
It appears the EPA is not testing for dioxins at the site because they don't have a prior baseline.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I guess we should call the present administration the blue state government.
This is like the administration during the depression, which allocated WPA projects mostly to states that voted for the president.
By another name, cronyism.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.epa.gov/dioxin/dioxin-superfund-sites#....
Notice none of the assessment criteria involve a "baseline".
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Personally, some days I would like to admit to China that they have already bought and paid for Washington, DC, cut it out of the Potomac basin, and ship it in toto to China - COD!
On the other hand, at a basic human level much deeper than my engineering interest, I sometimes enjoy watching the unproductive yet entertaining bickering. After all, I AM still human!
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
> I guess we should call the present administration the blue state government.
The actions the federal government can (legally) take without the governor issuing a declaration of emergency are extremely limited. It's the state's right to control whether they ask for disaster relief, and they haven't done so. The federal government has explicitly offered it, but that offer has not been accepted.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Although there is not much the present administration could have done, other than visit the site, and make people a little happier. But clean up funding might make a difference to the people who are true victims. That said, there will surly be non-victims who will be around with there hands out.
If there is true BS I would say it is in the media finger pointing, and administration CYA. But it is true the administration seems to be ignoring the event, as best as they can.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
And it seem so me that any raise in cost to a shipper would be passed on to the customer who buys the product.
The alternative might be to have many dispersed chemical plants to lessen long distance shipping. How's that going to fly?
Aside from petroleum fuel products, chemical tank car shipping appears to me to be a "recent" phenomenon. WILD guess: last 30 years.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Supposedly, they stopped the train specifically because the last reading exceeded their spec; it's just that it was too late. It's not clear whether an earlier warning would have helped, since the prior hot box reading was still well below the limit for requiring a stop. The only way that those readings would made a substantial difference would be if they were much closer together, but even if the last box was the same 10-mile separation as the first two, that would have saved maybe 10 minutes, at best.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
The other way to reduce stopping distance is better brakes. "Advanced brakes", like the ones that should have been installed a long time ago, would have accomplished this.
This is from 2008: https://railroads.dot.gov/elibrary/fra-issues-fina...
RE: Train crash in Ohio
see https://www.utrgv.edu/railwaysafety/_files/documen... particularly slides 10 and 15/16.
slide 3 indicates that existing limits already result in 40% false alarms, so lowering the threshold even more will result in even more false alarms and disruptions to service.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I'm thinking one engine in the front and one dynamic braking unit in the rear.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Seems to me there are number of reasons why single long trains are more efficient than multiple shorter trains. Additionally, more trains means more coordination along tracks and more separation distances to keep track of. The Greek train collision is a glaring example of what happens when the coordination fails.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train crash in Ohio
No surprise here. Also there is the issue of how much pulling power one can have with out pulling the couplers off the cars.
Longer trains also mean fewer trains, so simple math here.
Currently the slowest trains are coal trains. And part of that is because of the value of the cargo.
But what was found, in the past is the type of traction used made a difference.
DC traction motors, while cheaper to purchase, can not put 100% of the engine power to the rails at slow speed.
AC traction, while more expensive to purchase, can put close to 100% of the engine power to the rails at slow speed.
So as the railroads are changing from DC to AC traction, not all engines are capable of pulling long trains at low speeds.
This transition is also slow because of cost and current production- rates for new engines.
Also the AC traction requires more maintenance, and more highly trained technicians to work on them. A man power requirement that most railroads, and other industries are struggling with.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
At BNSF locations where I've observed coal trains mixed with general freight, they all run at the same speed. Helps planning and to keep the road clear.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Leaked audio reveals US rail workers were told to skip inspections as Ohio crash prompts scrutiny to industry
Exclusive: employee says manager told her to stop marking cars for repair, as Ohio derailment brings hard look at industry’s record of blocking safety rules
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/03/us...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I'm sure the NTSB will be looking at the history of the failed car. And that they started doing that within 24 hours of the crash. And, in a year or two, we can read about it.
Note that NTSB has not released their report on the Empire Builder crash of September 25, 2021.
Nor, for that matter, has NIST had much to say about the Florida condo collapse (June 24, 2021).
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.architectmagazine.com/design/east-pale...
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Darryl's PEX Incorporated could have Other Brother Darryl's Chemical Incorporated just send over a couple of vats with a fork lift. Or maybe just build a 1000 yard pipeline.
"Thanks for the quick delivery, Other Brother Darryl!"
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
"Environmental researchers say the combustion of vinyl chloride almost certainly created dioxins, a highly toxic chemical that can remain in the environment for years. However, the EPA has resisted calls to test for it, and the agency removed from its website the results of its in-depth soil analyses, so it’s unclear which chemicals are in the soil."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/04/ea...
RE: Train crash in Ohio
"Trump’s presidency proudly presided over a bonfire of regulations, including health and safety controls, and eviscerated almost 100 environmental protections."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/26/tr...
"East Palestine’s waste disposal has raised fresh questions about the disposal of toxic substances. Some of the waste is being sent to incinerators around Ohio, while about 1.5m gallons of wastewater is being injected into wells deep into the Earth’s crust near Houston. Deep wells can leak waste into groundwater, and are thought to cause earthquakes.
Meanwhile, some contaminated soil was shipped to a Michigan landfill with a history of discharging PFAS into a public sewer system. A state-of-the-art incinerator in Arkansas is likely equipped to more safely handle the East Palestine waste, Kiger said."
Obfuscation of information in the public domain goes well back to the 80's when EXXON and scores of other companies began painting out logos on their tanks and creating shell companies for their questionable activities making it nearly impossible for the general public to ever find out who is responsible for anything going on in their neighborhoods. Its virtually impossible to find any technical details of any industrial site anywhere, including plans that must be submitted for gov approval, all hidden under "confidential commercial information" redactions. One soil study removed, for unknown reasons? Hardly anything to get excited about. Try to find out how much of all this stuff is being shipped around on the tracks and highways in your neighborhood. Now that's a challenge. Took me 2 weeks to find the TC Keystone (not XL) Pipeline permit application. Basically I just got lucky. During Obama's administration, I could see the construction progress report photos and data. After Trunp got in, NOTHING.
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
20 cars of Norfolk Southern train derail in Ohio; no hazardous materials on board, officials say
It was the second derailment of the company’s trains in Ohio in a month.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/20-cars-norfo...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Suspected case of corporate profit at all cost with a blatant disregard for safety shaping up.
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Train crash in Ohio
NTSB chair on Ohio derailments and freight rail safety
https://www.washingtonpost.com/washington-post-liv...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Highlights from the above posting.
Given that this fit is supposed to be a heavy press with QC being press force to assemble usually over 100 tons (The one time I helped with a wheel change we used a 300 ton axle press, I do not remember the exact force we used.), finding loose wheels on truck sets is surprising. Elsewhere posted - there are 600 cars identified in this batch which require inspection.
Looks like some potentially useful actions.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
The wheels are pressed onto the axles--no bearings involved. Yet.
After that's done, the journals are projecting out from each wheel face. The bearings are slid onto those (I assume, rather than pressed), and the truck frame is dropped down onto the bearings.
Here's axles with wheels pressed on:
https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.com/f7adb67a-494...
Note the projecting journals (without bearings).
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Bearings are the same, heavy interference on the inside race, too much risk of galling. Newer systems are often drilled for hydraulic expansion but I don't see any such system on train wheels or bearings.
The press is usually used to hold the bearing against the step while it cools as they tend to walk as the shrink.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I think the roller bearing journals are a light interference fit.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Aluminum covers over pressure relief devices (PRDs)may have melted and affected their proper functioning.
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR2...
Figure 2. Energetic pressure relief from a vinyl chloride tank car, East Palestine, Ohio, on Feb. 4. After releasing material, the PRD closed and remained closed. (Source: NTSB) (Emphasis added)
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Pro-Russia Voices Tried To Steer Ohio Train Derailment Debate
Some took advantage of Elon Musk's new Twitter policies to increase their reach and promote Moscow-approved talking points.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pro-russia-voices-t...
An excerpt from the above item:
Soon after a train derailed and spilled toxic chemicals in Ohio last month, anonymous pro-Russian accounts started spreading misleading claims and anti-American propaganda about it on Twitter, using Elon Musk’s new verification system to expand their reach while creating the illusion of credibility.
The accounts, which parroted Kremlin talking points on myriad topics, claimed without evidence that authorities in Ohio were lying about the true impact of the chemical spill. The accounts spread fearmongering posts that preyed on legitimate concerns about pollution and health effects and compared the response to the derailment with America’s support for Ukraine following its invasion by Russia.
Some of the claims pushed by the pro-Russian accounts were verifiably false, such as the suggestion that the news media had covered up the disaster or that environmental scientists traveling to the site had been killed in a plane crash. But most were more speculative, seemingly designed to stoke fear or distrust. Examples include unverified maps showing widespread pollution, posts predicting an increase in fatal cancers and others about unconfirmed mass animal die-offs.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
And the Russian stuff is reported elsewhere, including Forbes, https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2023/03/18... so Russia-supporters not withstanding, I don't get why so many so-called Americans are so eager to declare "fake-news" and defend Russians.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Seriously?
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.reset.tech/credit/
Bias much?
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Chasing the AP story down (https://apnews.com/article/ohio-train-derailment-r...) they link to another AP story: https://apnews.com/article/little-rock-arkansas-bu....
5 employees from CTEH were killed in a plane crash headed to an explosion at an Ohio metals plant. IIRC that is the same firm hired to do some environmental testing at East Palestine. whether those particular employees had anything to do with the environmental testing in East Palestine or not is unknown. So, no conspiracy, but perhaps a mistake.
From the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (https://ohiodnr.gov/discover-and-learn/safety-cons...):
"...ODNR used a calculation endorsed by the American Fisheries Society to estimate the total number of minnows killed in the entire 5-mile span of waterway from the derailment site to the point where Bull Creek flows into the north fork of Little Beaver Creek. Of the estimate, 38,222 were minnows, ranging in size between 1 and 3 inches.
ODNR also estimated the total number of other aquatic life killed as a result of the derailment, including small fish, crayfish, amphibians, and macroinvertebrates. This number is approximately 5,500."
So, again, no conspiracy theory. Instead a mass animal die-off from a reputable government source.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Let's start over. When I posted about the aluminum covers, I was thinking about the slices of swiss cheese theory of accidents. When the holes line up, an accident happens. Causation is not simple, but a combination of events. Previously, brakes, hot box detectors, the length of the train, reduced manpower had all been identified as factors in the accident. I thought the fact that the aluminum covers weren't on anybody's radar to be interesting. Since the necessity of doing a controlled vent and burn of the vinyl chloride tankers had also been questioned, I thought that pointing out that the pressure relief devices had failed was important. I never thought to look for Russians under my bed. Surprisingly (to me), venting and burning vinyl chloride tank cars has been done before in other derailments. The one most similar to East Palestine, OH happened in Livingston, LA on Sep. 28, 1982. I have found two accounts of that derailment and aftermath plus the NTSB report. One is a bit rosy and makes thing sound like there is little concern for future health effects: https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/east-p.... It doesn't mention any cancer deaths. The other one (https://www.firehouse.com/rescue/hazardous-materia...), however, states:
The second one is also more detailed. Six vinyl chloride tank cars were vented and burned in Livingston, although two of these had already been breached and three of the ones that had not been breached had vented at least some of their content. A seventh vinyl chloride car BLEVEd, as did a tetra ethyl lead tank car. The NTSB report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReport...
Based on the Livingston, LA derailment, there is some concern about future cases of cancer, especially among first responders. That is not a conspiracy theory.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Why would you even share such a dubious story linking peoples' serious concerns to... Russia. Are those concerns illegitimate?
RE: Train crash in Ohio
It gets more interesting. Attached is a report on dioxins obtained by the State of Indiana: https://www.in.gov/idem/files/report_10644640_SW82...
Were these samples taken in the State of Indiana, roughly 250 miles away from East Palestine? If so, the results (pg 25: max of 700 ppt) would imply evacuating half of Ohio and half of Pennsylvania (/sarc). If the soil was sampled in East Palestine, OH, why aren't these samples being submitted by Ohio, Pennsylvania or federal agencies like FEMA, EPA or NTSB? Why only 3 samples? Where were they taken? How far from the derailment? Many questions.
P.S. Please note the sarcasm tag.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Train crash in Ohio
Yes, you would keep the same spacing as is used currently.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Medium speed diesel engines used to have fusible links on their connecting rods. If the bearing gets above 250F a solder joint melts and a metal rod pops out of the connecting rod and strikes a valve which dumps control air to shut the engine down. No electronics necessary. It's not so indifferent that the old Square D style overload heaters in motor controllers.
Then again, direct temperature measurement is so inexpensive nowadays, why do it any other way?
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Rail transmission will not do that.
The sound thing is nice because the bearing doesn't even HAVE to be hot.
The problem with "direct temperature measurement" is that that you need a power source to run it and transmit the data. Certainly doable. Even fun to design. Then we start looking at cost-benefit. Compare the cost with adding acoustic detectors.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
By the time it heats up, it may be too late to stop the train.
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train crash in Ohio
A.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
But most freight cars in the US are designed for interchange, and might end up anywhere they're needed. And may need maintenance anywhere they're at. By anyone who is willing to attempt it.
You will likely need a plug-and-play (if'n it don't work, plug in a new one, dude) cheap-as-dirt (theft) highly reliable and very sturdy bit of hardware.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/24/oh...
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Hours Of Video Deleted In Ohio Train Derailment
Footage was overwritten when the train went "immediately back in service following the accident," according to a federal agency investigating the incident.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/parts-of-video-miss...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Sebastian, as a trained and professional reporter, simply restated NTSB's announced statement.
Must have taken at least 5 minutes of his time to produce it. True dedication.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train crash in Ohio
If that is not the case, one could ask just how far back DOES the equipment save the recording. The whole trip? And when does it stop recording?
And if someone wiped the video because the locomotive was being put back in service, how is it that they neglected to wipe the whole thing? How is it that they left that interesting 20/5 minute bit?
Sebastian does not appear to have done any research for his article; he only parroted what the NTSB rep said. Of course, he could have felt the need to get this important news out right away; and he is, at this very moment, researching this matter to get ALL the information.
Go Sebastian, go!
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
It's still out there...
https://sourceforge.net/projects/travesty.mirror/
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
RE: Train crash in Ohio
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65141709
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Train crash in Ohio
US Justice Department sues Norfolk Southern following train derailment in East Palestine
https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/31/us/us-norfolk-south...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Train crash in Ohio
EPA really opened a can of worms when they used that excuse for not testing for dioxins.
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqPsuAivUQg
RE: Train crash in Ohio
I'll emphasize (as he did not) that many mainline sidings used to have manually controlled switches that needed to be thrown by a person. So when a train was sent into a siding so another could pass, the head end brakeman got down and threw the switch for the train to enter the siding. When the caboose had entered that siding, the rear end brakeman threw the switch back, and the other train could roll through without stopping.
The crew names probably should have been changed from brakeman to switchman, but that term was already used by a somewhat different trade. And then there's tradition.
If you finally get to the point where all appropriate mainline sidings are remotely controlled by a central dispatcher (CTC), then you now have no work for the two brakemen, except for emergencies.
As the video guy noted, trains that do a lot of switching might have a caboose assigned. The Union Pacific still has about 150 available for that task and others.
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train crash in Ohio
blames longer trains
RE: Train crash in Ohio
There is the old saying " if it can be measured, it can be improved". More to the point, the use of modern statistical quality control measures can find , and fix the top 3 reasons for derailments if they were to indeed keep records. At a minimum, one should compare the frequency of US railroad derailments on a normalized basis with other countries, such as derailments per ton*mile of freight shipment . Perhaps the insurance industry could provide the data that the FRA refuses to keep.
"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
RE: Train crash in Ohio
https://railroads.dot.gov/railroad-safety/accident...
spsalso
RE: Train crash in Ohio
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Train crash in Ohio
Here is form FRA F 6180.97:
https://railroads.dot.gov/forms-guides-publication...
Note box 24. "Total of Cars in Equipment Consist"
Here is form FRA F 6180.54:
https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/...
Note box 35 calls for the total number of cars in consist. Note also box 29, where it requests tonnage of train.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like the writers are way uninformed about the subject.
Perhaps they could argue that the number of cars in the train does not reveal the length of the train. To an extent, that's true. Car length generally ranges from 60' to 90', these days; which is a broad range. However, I suggest that the number of cars is more important than the length, because (1) the weight of the load and of the car is generally independent of the length, and (2) problems in this instance are generally caused by the quantity of trucks and couplers in the train, not the length of the train.
spsalso