I initially thought of an attack on the grid since the location is adjacent to Fort Bragg.

Local news will soon be calling it Terrorism as rumors are anti gay right did it in protest of drag show in nearby city.

Did not read Your posting yet. Hearing Major equipment needing replacement taking week to procure

edit , , ,thanks, those links are providing more detail

Fossil fuel operated? If they aren't blocking roadways, and slashing SUV tires, have people found another outlet?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

This happened out here some time back.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/05...

All it takes is one hooligan, a case of beer, and a rifle to start popping off transformers. The media tried to play it off as a terrorist event.

A sniper rifle? Come on. I think there needs to be mandatory range time for anybody that wants to work in the media.

Quote (byrdj)

Local news will soon be calling it Terrorism as rumors are anti gay right did it in protest of drag show in nearby city.

What would you do if one of the people leading the protest against the drag show posted on social media that the power station had failed and they knew why? Of course the police questioned this individual. BTW, her reason "why" was that it was God punishing the people of Moore County for allowing the drag show, as if the 'people' had any right to stop it.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/power-outage-in-moor...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

NYT article has some added quotes to speculate about: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/04/us/power-outage...

Quote:

As utility crews began responding to the affected substations, “evidence was discovered that indicated that intentional vandalism had occurred at multiple sites,” the sheriff’s office said in an earlier statement. Deputies were then deployed to various locations to provide security.

Targeted attacks at multiple locations seems not too far off terrorism (one can argue whether it counts as an attack on civilians of course) irrespective of motive...can't imagine a drunk person going to multiple locations




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about

Well, meth is the other side of the equation. If you shoot one and it makes a bunch of sparks and a big bang maybe they'll keep looking for more entertainment. If you followed the 2014 San Jose case it quietly fell off the radar once it became clear that sniper rifles and terrorism weren't involved.

...more fun than shooting STOP signs, I guess. I never shot either of them. Use to be that out in the ocuntry nearly all stop signs had a few bullet holes in them.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

How about we chill with the wild-arsed speculation? This is serious stuff. North Caroline isn't the beginning... This isn't what happened in the San Jose area 8 years ago; that was an inside job but the recent shite isn't.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

after their incident, didn't PGE enclose the transformers. (I thought a lot of them were already "out of sight" anyway)

Local "Professors" doing "comentary" for NEWS are calling for block enclosures. and hardening the sorrounding buffer zone with better fencing.

as for impact on the public, this is worst than recovering from a Huricane. where reestablish lines and through switching redirect to get power back to areas. This is a singularity that crippled with lead times for replacement

Davebeach, you asked us to chill with the wild speculation and then proceeded to do it. Can you please explain?

Video from a local news report may confirm transformer radiators were shot at-










https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPmAo05L_RE

Nice group...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Where did I speculate?

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

The method may be linked to Ukraine.

During the ongoing Irish troubles, the Royal Engineers always had a worry about the PIRA dumping a ton of diesel into the water works and taking out transformers in the Catholic areas.

The Arms branches always dismissed this idea for various reasons. Years later I was told it was because when they looked at it, they just couldn't protect the spread-out infrastructure.

I'll add to the wild-arsed speculations;

the Sheriff commented the vandel "knew what he was doing". that could mean that it was not a missed shoot at a deer, but intentionally aimed at transformer.

Now that the utility can not reroute service to that area through a different feeder, Did the attacker know the grid and those TWO substations would indeed isolate the area?

the "State of Emergency" for the area IS much worse than one might think.

If only the radiators (or oil circulation) they might be able to repair, where as ex Fed speculation is bullet struck windings (unrepairable, or very extensive)

From the outside your suggestion is not so wilf arsed.

Inside job and knew where to aim.

One of the substations mentioned is called "West End 230kV Substation 6910 NC Hwy 211".


Which can be found here on Google maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.21967,-79.5303,515...


Viewing Google earth it appears this station has three 230kV incoming lines, two 230/115kV auto-transformers and three outgoing 115kV lines- one which radially feeds a distribution substation near the intersection of 211 and 1210; with the other two forming a loop around Moore County supplying 6 distribution substations. No external interconnection appears within this 115kV loop.

Assuming vandals damaged both 230/115kV auto-transformers at West End substations the entire 115kV system within Moore County became de-energized. Further it appears vandals also damaged 115kV/24.9kv(???) transformers within distribution substations.

Whom ever did this had intimate knowledge (of the system) whilst making a lasting statement.

thats a chunkie amount of solar next to it.

A real problem... complicated and sophistocated infrastructure is increasing vulnerable to attacks like this.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Nothing points to an 'inside job'. Give me 2 days and I could probably watch enough youtube videos and look at enough maps to be able to figure out the most important parts of a substation AND determine how areas are fed (substations and high-voltage lines are pretty easy to spot on google maps). Somebody with no electrical training could probably figure it out in 3 or 4 if their only goal was to take it down.

Could it be an inside job? Sure. But knowing how a system on public display and openly discussed is laid out is not a 'smoking gun' if I can use such an on-the-nose metaphor here.

Utilities have been working to add protection to large stations, but there are tens of thousands of these small subs around the country that have no more than a fence.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

Quote (Somebody with no electrical training could probably figure it out in 3 or 4 if their only goal was to take it down.)

That's part of the problem... but imagine what could happen if someone really knew what they were doing.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Quote (dik)

That's part of the problem... but imagine what could happen if someone really knew what they were doing.

Yeah, really. Let's just hope a civil engineer never decides to run a terrorist organization! Oh...wait...

...maybe pays better?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

What kind of engineering failure is this?

About 15 years ago, I installed an RTU at a dam on a water reservoir. This dam was located inside a large forested area. Took about 30 minutes driving on dirt roads to get to it. A couple weeks later, we received report that someone had shot at the RTU but did not penetrate the enclosure (316 SS). They did however destroy the solar panel with a rock. A month later, they returned with a 5.56 AR rifle. They not only shot up the RTU, but also shot up the pumping station that supplied water for the County. This included a pad mounted transformer, which started to leak oil into the water supply. The County had backhoes out the next day removing all of the contaminated soil.

BTW while they shot up the enclosure, they missed all of the electronics inside. Just the loss of the enclosure and some terminal blocks.

Quote (hpaircraft)

What kind of engineering failure is this?

Failure to protect from predictable misuse of firearms.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Quote (hpaircraft)

What kind of engineering failure is this?

Security. There is a whole field that has formed around physical security engineering. It's largely in government - I had to incorporate it into many of my structural designs for government facilities. But a lot of tech firms have started implementing the roll. Do a search online and you'll find listings for data centers, nuclear facilities, etc. The point is to introduce engineering controls to safeguard infrastructure.

People don't typically shoot at structures with a roof on them. Put as much as you can inside building. A control box in the open may as well have a target on it. Mount it on a pole and it's even more tempting.

https://www.cisa.gov/infrastructure-security-divis...
https://www.cisa.gov/critical-infrastructure-secto...
https://www.cisa.gov/energy-sector
https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publicati...

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

Sorta like food plants burning awhile back, oil tankers running aground many years ago, millions of chickens put down, and cattle the same, refinery's going up in smoke, and fertilizer plants too . Yeah just makes one wonder.
I just bet its a bit rough charging EV's during all this?

I wonder how easy it is to get petrol (gas) from a pump without electricity supply?

http://julianh72.blogspot.com

Davidbeach asked:

Quote:

Where did I speculate?

Right here:

Quote (Davidbeach)

This isn't what happened in the San Jose area 8 years ago; that was an inside job but the recent shite isn't.

The Feds are now involved in this:

FBI investigates deliberate attacks on N.C. power substations

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fbi-investigates...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

The local paper in Moore County published this detailed timeline of events.
All-Out Effort Underway to Investigate Power Station Attack 'Violence and Sabotage Will Not Be Tolerated' Staff Report, Dec 5, 2022

The following quote reveals the extent of the restoration effort.

Quote (The linked webpage (The Pilot))

The company said it is building new lines to help those affected by the outage. But as it does so and more customers come back online, "the overall electric load increases. The back feeding system REMC is building can provide power for intervals of time but not continuously."

Crews on Monday were erecting poles to cover almost three miles of territory.

Gee, I thought it was going to be the suggestion that 2014 was an inside job that was going to get push back.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

I would assume the FBI would get involved. Local police departments don't typically have the resources or knowledge to pursue these types of investigations. FBI involvement doesn't imply there is a greater conspiracy. Lots of spicy words in these headlines.

So, did the FBI open a new investigation or just add this as one more thing for an ongoing task force to examine?

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

I would assume it's a new investigation. Transformer shootings are relatively infrequent and separate events aren't usually connected.

Don't they have spare transformer/substations on big trailers they can drive up next to the substation and jumper in?? I've seen 69kV ones. How could it take more than a day or two to put one of those in service?

Then post a security guard until a proper cinder-block wall is installed.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

you wouldn't need a cinder block wall.

anti Sniper visual screens with the current fence in front of them is enough. And possibly some plate steel covering the big fragile bits which you would need with a cinder wall anyway.

Keith
Mobile transformer kits are manufactured in Lynchburg https://www.deltastar.com/mobile-transformers/, and they cover up to 230 kV so it's possible one could be used. Lead time on these, and all substation transformers is too long for ordering a replacement to be useful. This picture from this link https://www.thepilot.com/news/all-out-effort-under... looks much like the Delta Star Mobil transformer, so Duke Power either has one or was able to obtain one from a reasonably local source.

As a matter of interest what stocks of this sort of thing do power companies hold?

Round me all the old soviet stuff which has been upgraded and was sitting to get recycled is going to Ukraine.

I presume all the USA 60hz gear is only made in the USA.

There are a couple programs in recent years to address the need for critical long lead time spares, I cant speak for how successful they have been. This event may be a good test.
Link

"I presume all the USA 60hz gear is only made in the USA."
Wrong.
I don't know all of the countries that use 60Hz, but Peru is one of them.
Also several other countries make 60Hz gear, including Mexico and Canada. Also ABB makes 60Hz gear in several other countries including Europe.

It appears both auto-transformers were indeed damaged at the West End Substation. Aerial footage shows both 230kV disconnects open and associated bushings grounded. Disassembled radiators can be seen in front of the north-west unit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGE92ryM5vI&t=...


Based on Jeff Brooks statement at today's press conference I'm wagering a wild bet one of the auto-transformer has not sustained winding or tank damage beyond the radiators themselves. Unit could be "repaired in place"...

https://youtu.be/ADh-gUtku7Y?t=490

Yes, that is indeed a mobile transformer at the second substation in Carthage. Adjacent 230kv line tapped via mobile circuit switcher, trough the mobile transformer and secondary circuit breaker, voltage regulator, hook disconnects, feeding into the exiting distribution bus at Carthage. Current limiting neutral reactor and 230kV wave trap essentially mimicking a normal substation.

Going forward ballistic resistant barriers will probably become the norm:

https://www.southernstatesllc.com/products/ballist...

All large electrical component manufacturers make all variants of Volt/Hz components.
But almost nothing today is produced without a order first.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Several years back, there was a chemical plant in Brandon that had chlorine rail tankers, and they wanted them protected using earth embankments.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Quote (But almost nothing today is produced without a order first.)

and the lead time can be 2 or 3 years.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Not surprised ABB produce it and there will be a few other German OEM's.

Most of the Green countries don't really make international Merchant ships. The last big ones none mil the USA made had to get taken to Europe to get wired.

I don't think the Japan produced boats are 60hz 110V in my very limited experience.

We used to see a bit of it in Aberdeen but after Piper Alpha it rapidly disappeared.

As for the protection stuff its quite common in the UK to have berms Infront of infrastructure a lot of airports have them now in front of the terminals. But they are protection against getting rammed by vehicles after the Glasgow attack.

I would have thought that they were 220 (which seems to be the international voltage)... just to reduce the size of the conductors.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

120V is only used for lighting. Most USA ships are 480V generation and distribution. The 50hz ships are similar but I have never been on one. Shore power connections are often 6kV. Ships with electric propulsion have 11kV generation.

USA West Coast ports require ships connect to shore power when at the dock. I know the Korean built ships which are most common here are 60hz. I never thought about how 50hz ships would be accommodated.

well, the ones I had experience with and mates that work on them it's all 220V 50hz same on the oil rigs.

The only funnies are old GulF of Mexico drilling rigs.

But I have extremely low experience in that sector and very UK/Scottish centric which is hardly international.

The crazy Dane salvage skipper just sent me this.

https://new.abb.com/docs/librariesprovider91/leafl...

East coast USA is no probs, west is problematic.

So most container ships I have seen that carry refrigerated containers supply 440v 3-phase 50hz to the containers, but once they are unloaded they get plugged into 480v 3-phase 60hz. They are also rotation insenstive, I suspect they convert the incoming power to DC then use an inverted to convert it back to AC.

I think it was either Treasure Hunter or Treasure seeker had a major fire in the NorthSea when they plugged in a 3 phase 50hz food container into its grid. I think after that they standardised the sockets so it just wouldn't happen, and it became a sackable offense to even know of a converter tail between the two setups, never mind use one. Things that could take both had both sets of connection sockets or cables with plugs on the end.

FacEngrPE; Thanks for confirming that. Didn't know they could get clear up to 230kV. Wow.

Cool they already got the power going too. Stick that in the eye of the maggots that did the damage!

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

A bit of a side track, but I didn't know that there was "power" ships.
Turkey offered to help Ukraine with power if needed, since the Russians are going after all their infrastructure.

100 MW per ship.



https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Energy/Turkish-po...

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Russia has a nuke power ship. And more are in production, but I suspect they won't be completed.

Oh goodie... more carbon dioxide...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

So what is the difference between 60Hz and 50Hz? I believe they can build a compressor motor that can use either. at 60Hz it can run at 3600 RPM, and at 50Hz it can run at 3000 RPM.

Yes, when I was working as a machine designer, the vendor we bought our motors from, when the equipment was going to be shipped to a 50Hz country, they would supply us with a replacement nameplate with the specs for the 50Hz service. The motors were built such that the safety factor was sufficient so that it could run at either frequency. Of course, we had to keep that in mind when we were specifying the other relevant drive components, such as pulley's, sprockets, gearboxes, etc, so that it was going to run at the proper speed when it was installed. And of course we had to keep that in mind when they tested the machines on the shop floor before shipment since we didn't have a way of providing 50Hz power in the factory (we were located in Saginaw, Michigan, although we were a subsidiary of a British company).

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

It will be to do with mass flow rate and heat generation.

Modern units will be inverter variable speed units with variable expansion valves. T won't really care what the supply frequency is.

The bulk of the containers units will be simple fixed orifice on off regulated units.

John would I be right in thinking that 60hz on 50hz there wouldn't really be much of an issue apart from a drop in performance. But a 50hz designed and spec'd components might had issues?

They might have put a different expansion valve in as well between the two models.

A designed in UK and spent it's life on UK boats moving food about put on a gom drilling rig definitely doesn't survive the experience.

Since these were American designed and manufacture motors, I would assume that they were intended for 60Hz service, but the safety factor was such that running them in a de-rated manner, i.e. 50Hz instead of 60Hz, was not an issue.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

I wasn't questioning your product. More getting my head round the reason why the UK one failed.

Off the top of my head the post compressor pressure would be higher for a fixed expansion valve and resulting temp. Torque on shaft would also be higher.

I would guess that a lot of assumptions were made during the failure analysis which is typical of the offshore environment. Even severely overheated motors don't tend to catch fire on the outside. Fires more often start from control side failures such as a welded contact or mechanical failures like hot bearings.

4pm news briefing announced that area GOLF courses will be open tomorrow.
State of Emergancy and Curfew ends at 05:00EST
Duke anticipates having all service restored tonight

Just like applying a motor to a VFD, as long as the input Volts / Hz ratio is observed, a motor will spin and be electrically OK.
Available motor torque being a function of current, remains constant (subject to available cooling).
Available power is lower at 50 HZ than 60 HZ due to torque being constant and speed lower.

If Volts per Hertz ratio is not maintained, magnetizing current will go out of bounds, and damage will likely result.

We did this with a 50 Hz Scoda MG set used with a large machine tool spindle drive, with no resulting maintenance problems.

Actually, if the HP demand is small, a universal motor could be used. I had an electric lawn mower, years ago, that used a universal motor, but was installed with a rectifier.
Easy to use and light. And when the rectifier failed, I just happened to have a like and kind to replace it. Not that I planned that, but I had one.
Besides, induction motors don't run at system frequency anyway. They run a little slower.
The only issue is three phase motors are sensitive rotation direction.
Single phase and VFD controlled are not.

Some newspaper coverage
Repair Crews Working Around the Clock to Restore Service By JAYMIE BAXLEY || jaymie@thepilot.com Dec 6, 2022

Investigation Presses On As Substation Repair Work Continues BY JONATHAN BYM, JAYMIE BAXLEY, ANA RISANO and MARY KATE MURPHY || Staff Writers Dec 6, 2022 Updated Dec 6, 2022

Tuesday Update: Timeline for Those Without Power Improves Staff Report Dec 6, 2022 Updated Dec 6, 2022

Power Restored to Over 22,800, With Parts of Downtown Southern Pines, Hospital Back Online By JAYMIE BAXLEY || jaymie@thepilot.com Dec 7, 2022 Updated Dec 7, 2022

Thursday Update: Power Returns, Curfew Lifted as Investigation Continues Staff Report Dec 7, 2022 Updated 1 hr ago

Looks like it's just cleanup and law enforcement now. This restoration was impressively fast.

Universal motors have their place, but large ones like the traction motors on the GG1 locomotive are rarely produced now. Each GG1 sported 12 ea 385 HP motors that were applied at 25 HZ. https://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.php

One way to reduce such acts is to install monitorng cameras and devices that trace cell phone pings, so as to help catch the persons responsible. Already there are millions of "doorbell cameras" employed just to catch porch pirates, the same can be had for infrastructure.

It sometimes seems that the timing of such "terrorist events" is about 1 week prior to a congressional vote on terror legislation- it might be useful to see if such a vote was timed a week after that event.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

A company I worked for, years ago, would have shooting often. They would put a light on the edge of the substation.
Shooters at night would shoot the light, then could not see anything. That was the end of the shooting.

this is being reported this side of the pond

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/fbi-north-carolina-autho...

Quote (FacEngrPE)

This restoration was impressively fast.

It the same in Ukraine it always surprises me and it is impressive that they manage to get most of the grid and infrastructure fixed and working again in three to five days when the Russians bomb things out and then after a couple of days they have to start all over again.
Guess that's why they like to show this animation.

Quote:

https://t.me/operativnoZSU/61808 This classic will be repeated from time to time😁

Quote (Operational Armed Forces)

Zaporizhzhia OVA showed how the smoke did not settle down after the rocket hit, and the relevant services started the recovery work.
At night, the S-300 rocket "defeated" the road between two villages of Zaporizhzhya district, and by dusk the road was restored.
We work for a joint victory!

And then they need to make rolling blackouts to keep the whole grid in order on start up and after shelling and destruction.

https://t.me/operativnoZSU/61811

Quote (Operational Armed Forces)

At Ukrenergo, they showed the chief specialist who is responsible for emergency power outages.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

There was another attack on a North Carolina power distribution station three weeks prior to this latest incident:

Another North Carolina power substation was disabled before the Moore County attack

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article269...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Yes. But that area had an extensive loop system in place already. That station isn't back in service yet.

We worked from Saturday night until Wednesday on this in Moore County, with some of us working 40 hours straight.

4 in Washington St.
https://youtu.be/22_DG8jNAoQ

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

So, now, anybody willing to accept that the North Carolina events were just part of an ongoing rash of stuff?

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

It may have been. The Washington incidents may also be the same. Or, the Washington incident could be a copy cat crime after all of the publicity the first event got. I speculate that the fact that there are no suspects is because of the random nature of these crimes.

These clowns don't realise that cutting power can be life threatening...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

North Carolina was far from the first, just the first you heard of.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

For the last few days temps in NC are unusually cold and there is not enough generation so un annouced rolling blackouts for hours. I have had two so far

Quote (Byrdj)

For the last few days temps in NC are unusually cold and there is not enough generation so un annouced rolling blackouts for hours. I have had two so far

We rolled some waiting on solar to ramp up and carry extra burden. Done around 9:30AM.

also some information here:

thread238-501018: Substations vandalized

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

just wait until they find out what a couple of gallons of diesel does to a water treatment works.

Have you seen the price of diesel right now? No way anybody is going to give up any of that.

:D tug

Here is another odd infrastructure vandalism:

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/the-vandal-who-c...

I guess someone doesn't like orange....

Trying to stop coastal erosion of sand cliff though is a very costly exercise though. Perhaps someone didn't like the land owners.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

When we did the military paper planning exercises its quiet astounding how much infrastructure stuff is extremely soft and very vulnerable. And its so spread out.

Those that know about the human behaviour side of things said once its established as a form of civic unrest and the methods are known its extremely hard to stop.

Thanks Tug... I'd not seen sea walls before. They are susceptible to damage... maybe high strength wires in the fabric.

Is the purpose of them to act as a small dam? or to act as a barrier to reduce wave action? or both?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

The current generation of battery powered angle grinders render any attempts at cut resistance to be futile.

With enough time nothing will work against that but there are some types combinations that at least will not make it easy or quick.
Like really thick steel chain with a nylon or Kevlar sock outside.
You first need to get through the sock and then make two cuts to get through the chain.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

dik, trust me, the lowlifes already know all of this. Also, don't overlook cordless recip saws, favored tool of the cat converter thiefs. Guess how I know :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

Dik I am sorry to say, that those who have a interest in knowing, already does.
Not sure there are any new ideas here.
For a engineering forum it might be a good thing contemplating on what can make a different if someone gets the wrong idea.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Why move to censor? Speaking openly about problems is how you get solutions.

I wonder how angle grinders fair against the sort of aramid loose tangle yarn used in chainsaw PPE?

A.

We use angle grinders to cut the 3" diameter 12-strand high performance ropes we use on our tugboats. Synthetic fibers don't do much to slow things down. A 2 inch aluminum chain is the best option I can. Think of. Aluminum clogs the commonly available cutting wheels and 2 inches is thick to plunge through. Aluminum is resistant to salt water environments.

I think it would have a problem how much depends on the disc.
I tried to drill in a spring mattress (wood, stuffing, outer fabric) I was making into a day bed, putting some new legs on it.
Totally impossible, almost...
It had some "nylon" stuffing and when the drill got hot it melted and glued the drill.
But a disc to a angle grinder has less friction on the disc depending on type.
But still cutting something that is soft with something that is supposed to cut hard material isn't easy.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Ropes aren't soft when they have tension on them which would be the case for installed infrastructure. We cut them when they're loose for splicing. We wrap the area to be cut with masking tape.

Quote (Dik I am sorry to say, that those who have a interest in knowing, already does.)

Maybe there are those out there that don't already know...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

most don't know, media attention and descriptions what has been done to generate revenue is what spreads the info.

here is relatively safe in the grand scale of things. A diamond blade 18v grinder will pretty much defeat most security. As will a metal jacket amour piercing targeted HV round into a transformer.

FOX news and the likes have told the great unhappy unwashed how to do it.... Which is a problem.

I did have a good finger wagging at by an extremely senior officer for developing scenarios due sabotage events due to engineering knowledge. The C word was used. In actual fact some of the "plays" are happening in Russia just now. My boss as enemy was very happily pissed in the corner saying crack on son this is absolutely hilarious. Brigadier with mucho shampers absolutely rat arsed, she had started to drink when I put a hit in on Belfast sewage works with 500ltrs of diesel and the Sapper boss gave 12 hours to water supply shut down.

He did buy mucho beer in the mess afterwards but said that was the hardest paper tiger exercise I have ever done. There were no assets to take out with a concentrated force just tap tap of infrastructure. Who taught you this crap?.

Nobody just invented crap from knowledge of engineering systems. I am not even qualified yet as a Mech eng.

We need to sell more AR-15 rifles. They don't have the penetration of most hunting rifles, much safer around infrastructure.

Dik, it doesn't do much good to hide this stuff, then only the bad guys will know. Take your car for example, it probably has an if ignition interlock to prevent theft. It is not possible for you to program or bypass which makes your key replacement expensive. However, criminals have some secret knowledge that does allow them to program or bypass your ignition interlock. That information circulates whether you know it or not.

Quote (TugboatEng)

The current generation of battery powered angle grinders render any attempts at cut resistance to be futile.

Yes, a week or so ago, one of the restaurants in Houston, that our son is responsible for, was broken into. Apparently during that night several businesses in the mall where the store was located were vandalized and in each case, someone had used an angle grinder to literally remove the side of their safes. However, they had only started on the safe in the restaurant's office when apparently they were spooked and left after only managing a single three inch or so cut in the side of the safe, but you could see that with a bit more effort they would have taken the side of that safe out as well.

Here's a shot of the safe:



And a close-up of the cut:



He said if they had managed to get in the safe, he's not sure that they would have considered it worth the effort since he said they only had maybe $200 or $300 cash in it.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

more than enough to take out most infrastructure.

You going to have to upgrade absolutely everything to 12mm steel plate to protect against AR-15 rounds that are available from Walmart.

Your basically screwed now the anti feds know how to do it.

Good luck your just going to have to live with it. Thankfully the bog trotters in Northern Ireland never got clued up in that crap, They just went for 50 cal single targets over the border and blowing up horses. And then September 11th happened and the boats got taken with the resupply and the bang dried up along with the money. Don't believe the nonsense in the media about good Friday agreement and all that pish. It was September 11th that stopped most of the PIRA issues not the political stuff.

They key is deterrence. You need to make an example of a few perpetrators and build a perception of risk around such action. You're seeing the Federal government do this with the Jan 6 rioters right now.

Have the offered a reward for information on the first substation incident?

makes no difference at all tugboat bog trotters with Irish issues used to have no jury courts. Locals turning up at 2 am blowing their kneecaps out. British army doing over time and putting a 9mm through their heads made not the slightest bit of difference.

your country's red neck's seem to have substantially less IQ than the paddy's. Lets face it alot of them are descendants of the hookers and criminals of the UK when it was a penal colony.

Am I right in thinking that electricity infrastructure was high on the target list for the ANC's military wing in the early 1960s?

A.

Quote (They key is deterrence.)

The real key is creating an environment that precludes that type of activity. Happy, well fed, educated people are less inclined to 'blow things up'.

Even with it being a capital offense, people are still killing people; I don't think deterrence is very effective.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

The only people that are happy are the ones that have the power. We're currently in a left wing swing so the right is mad. Give it a few years and we'll be back to your left wing blowing things up.

"The only people that are happy are the ones that have power."

That IS appealing. But can you prove it? Because if you can't, you will have to retract it.

You are asserting that the way to happiness is by having power (over others). I think. With my kids grown and out of the house, and with a wife of a certain unwillingness to be "powered", and with cats who are also just not impressed (except for the food part), and with customers who are similarly unimpressed unless I actually do the work the need/want........

I must admit I have next to no power over anyone. And yet I'm pretty happy.

What the HELL is wrong, here!


spsalso

Maybe I should retract and say that there will always be a "perceived oppressor" and there will always be someone that feels oppressed. The perception is key as the feeling does not always reflect reality.

Quote (Dik)

The real key is creating an environment that precludes that type of activity. Happy, well fed, educated people are less inclined to 'blow things up'.

I think you are right.
We are considered one of the happiest people in the world and I can't remember more then two incidents of this kind, there can surely have been more of them but maybe they where so small so they didn't make the big news.
The preferred method here is dynamite, someone blow up a the pole base on a main power line.
And then there where this guy who blow up a telecom mast, but he had some mental issues and the wife of a coworker of mine tipped the police of so they managed to catch him and also found evidence.

Mostly we are worried about the Russians, right now they have ordered more surveillance of infrastructure and asked people to be more attentive of strange people that don't seem to belong.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

Yes zeusfaber it was.

This posting is mostly about some prior substation vandalism by some people with what I consider to be a warped view of right and wrong (the problem is not just their politics).

At the end of the posting is some news about the ongoing current event investigation.

Moore County Power Grid Attack - North Carolina men among several charged in various neo-Nazi plots against power substations in 2020, 2021; by: Emily Mikkelsen, Fox 8 Posted: Dec 30, 2022 / 10:16 AM EST; Updated: Jan 4, 2023 / 05:45 AM EST

A copy of the wanted poster can be examined in this post.
Moore County Power Grid Attack - Duke Energy says ‘no decisions’ yet on how company will handle costs from Moore County substation attack; by: Emily Mikkelsen, Justyn Melrose; Posted: Dec 16, 2022 / 02:26 PM EST; Updated: Dec 16, 2022 / 02:33 PM EST

A partial listing of recent incidents.
Electrical grid security in the United States; From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The beat goes on...

Another North Carolina power substation damaged by apparent gunfire weeks after grid attacks left thousands without power

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-carolina-power-...

An excerpt from the above item:

Another power substation in North Carolina has been damaged because of apparent gunfire, energy officials said Tuesday. The damage occurred at a power substation in Thomasville, about an hour away from Moore County, where just weeks ago two other substations were attacked by gunfire. 

EnergyUnited said that company officials learned of an "equipment issue" at the Pleasant Hill Substation on Tuesday morning, at which time crews were sent to assess the situation. There, they found that a transformer had been damaged "from an apparent gunshot" and law enforcement was notified. 

No customers who get their power from the substation experienced an outage, the company said. 

The Randolph County Sheriff's Office said Tuesday that police responded to a "vandalism call" at the substation, and that investigators responded to the scene. The FBI and the State Bureau of Investigations were also notified, police said. 

"Investigators recovered evidence from the scene and canvassed the surrounding areas gathering additional information," the sheriff's office said. "Based on information gathered, investigators believe the incident occurred around 3:00 a.m. The investigation is ongoing."

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

Practical Engineering's YouTube channel explains
https://youtu.be/bPwY-FTqWxM

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

Sounds like board children with guns. Where are the adults?

I got my first 22 when I was about 11... and never went looking for switchyards. Maybe a different time period.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

I got my first 22 when I was nine years old, and I still have it, an Iver Johnson, single-shot safety rifle (the kind the Boy Scouts used when you got your Marksmanship Merit Badge at summer camp), manufactured sometime between 1931 and 1955 (there was no serial number, just the patent number). From the best that I can determine, it's worth around $175-$285 (from several online sites which sell antique firearms). I think my father paid something like $12 for it back in 1956.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

mine was a Cooey Model 75... single shot with a 'pull back' bolt. A couple of years later, I added a Weaver B6 scope to it... likely 3x the cost of the rifle... I had 3 paper routes back then...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

No paper routes any more. Idle hands ...

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

rifles, shotguns and "saturday night specials" came and went even as preteen.

HOWEVER, a Christmas gift of High Standard Double Nine and a Paladin Holster / Dropped belt will be with till it is pried from my cold dead hand.

I wish I knew the number of rounds have been through it

My father had a High Standard Double Nine that he bought after he sold his Colt 45 automatic, as he said he couldn't afford the ammo any more (this was back in the late 60's). If I recall correctly, it looked like this one:



While all of his long guns went to his three sons, he gave the pistol to my sister. Not sure if she still has it.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

My pride and joy was a Walther single shot 22 target rifle which I picked up when I was 14 or 15... It cost just a little over $150 which was a bunch of money back then... I was out at a range 3 nights a week.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Another North Carolina electrical substation damaged by gunfire 1/18/2023 6:39 PM
Copycat or too much time on someones hands?

Quote (An EnergyUnited substation was damaged around 3 a.m. Tuesday, but there were no outages in the areas it serves: Trinity, Thomasville, and parts of Davidson County, south of Thomasville.)

There was another incident on Nov. 11, when a Carteret-Craven Electric Cooperative station in Maysville, North Carolina, was vandalized, causing 12,000 customers to go without power.
3 events in North Carolina impacting 4 substations, and over 58,000 customers in the past 3 months.

If you don't allow people to be kids when they are young, they become kids when they are older.
Thus we have taken gun training away from kids, and the learning comes later, without the adult supervision.

cranky108 - If I could I would give you 5 stars for your post.

Video games are more exciting than a bullseye target.

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

I'm not so sure... there's a certain pleasure in putting 100 handloads into paper...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Well that doesn't sound very satisfying.

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

But seeing the can jump, when you hit it, and the sound of the can screaming. That can be exciting.

At one time Popular Mechanics (from my recollection) had an article on building your own indoor shooting range.
Part of it consisted of reloading shells with wax bullets.

Wax bullets, now there is some expansion :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

i never touched a gun until 17

then a extremely violent swearing Falkland's vet educated me...

there was only 2 broke noses and 5 sets of sore balls after the 1st training session with SLR's with 30 16-19 year olds.

I don't think there was any repeat offenders but none of us had touched a weapon before and the next week i was laying and firing a 105 light gun.

By far the most lethal thing i was ever given in the british army was a 4 tonner bedford lorry.

presumably without dedicated weapon stowage. I was introduced to these in a later generation of vehicle by somebody who explained, with a straight face, how failing to stow an SA-80 properly might turn it into a lethal weapon if the truck had an accident.

A.

they had these stupid brackets on the rear shelf which nobody ever used. And REME units used to take out so some one could sleep on it.

The other one I couldn't understand was xraying the gats at Brize. Only thing we could think of was smuggling of hex somehow. Although years later an ex mover said on the SA80 there was a void in the stock and people used to keep a couple of rounds in it.