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Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
2

Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
thread815-445840: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 1]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 1]
thread815-450258: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]
thread815-452000: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]
thread815-454283: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]
thread815-457125: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]
thread815-461989: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]
thread815-466401: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]
thread815-473001: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8]

Looks like Boeing is still having fun...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58483150

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Quote (Linked BBC News)

Boeing's board of directors must face a lawsuit from shareholders over two fatal crashes involving its 737 Max plane, a US judge has ruled.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

i don't actually think this is a good thing because it diverts cash away from the engineering

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

I agree in the short term, but in the long term it may serve to divert MBAs away from engineering and that's a good thing.
Win or lose, it may send a powerful and important message to other boards of directors, CEOs and managers.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
With climate change, there may be a reduction in the number of aircraft needed...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Quote (AFp news agency)

Federal prosecutors are preparing to indict a former Boeing test pilot suspected of misleading aviation regulators over the safety issues blamed for two fatal 737 MAX crashes, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.

Mark Forkner was the lead contact between the aviation giant and the United States' Federal Aviation Administration over how pilots should be trained to fly the planes, the Journal said.

According to documents published in early 2020, Forkner withheld details about the planes' faulty flight handling system known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS -- later blamed for both crashes -- from regulators

As expected they are going after the little people.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

The charges sound a little bit dubious to me-
'Forkner, 49, was charged with two counts of fraud involving aircraft parts in interstate commerce and four counts of wire fraud.'
...but I'm not a lawyer.

More from DOJ- https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-boeing-737-m...

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
It smacks of criminal negligence causing death and not fraud... I think there's something else at play, here.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Yes by doing him it gets the FAA off the hook

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Furthermore, the term conspiracy comes to mind.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Do US DOJ press releases generally start with whole paragraphs of chest beating and hollering by the indicting agencies? Seems more theatrical than informative to me.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

I found this dokument when I was looking around for some information.

Quote (FAA)

Appendix G describes the design changes to the stabilizer trim system for the 737-7/-8/-9
(hereafter referred to as the 737 MAX), the applicable Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
and European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) regulatory requirements, and the method of
compliance to those requirements.

And as usual I got a bit annoyed, there is no visible date when this was done.
And I do understand that some information need to be excluded for one reason or another, but this is ridiculous!
You can't even se what there conclusion of this investigation was.

https://www.faa.gov/foia/electronic_reading_room/b...

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Bad management has momentum. You don't just stop it all at once.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
thanks Alistair... depends on what you call fun.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

I am pretty sure its just a "normal" control issue.

As it was a delivery flight it will have had senior crew onboard. And when your brand new purchase does that to you...

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
I thought they had that capacity; was it taken away from them?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

There meant to have it.

When the regulators went to the SMS systems they isolated themselves from the OEM's and airlines responsibility of it not being done correctly. Both were meant to ensure there own compliance using SMS, engineering is only one side of it flight ops have another parallel setup using sms. So like this pilot getting done they have someone in the middle to blame and the FAA and OEM/Airline just point at them when something goes wrong.

Then the regulator then audits the compliance systems. Which is the reason why I put in the MAX thread because that's what fell over letting MCAS through.

EASA has the same system.

EASA through sends auditors/inspectors out from different countries so there is not the local bias or ability of the OEM or airline to influence the inspectors. Basically a Spanish inspector is not interested about a cushy job in Denmark or Ireland. And they move them round regularly and its a different nationality every time. And when the inspection is done its auditing the local CAA more than anything else who do the normal inspections/audits.

I don't have the big picture with it all though not by a long shot. Just know that there is a small army of people in every airline keeping the information flowing into the system and closing events. And we do get pulled occasionally, a mate pilot got an hour in the office for doing a special reset under direction on the phone. It worked they came home. But there was no entry in the tech log because the tech didn't tell him 2. A month later the system picked it up that this was an event which should have been documented that had been done and there was no record of it. So interviews were done, manuals changed.

From the way I read it a tiger team (my own term for them) were parachuted in to check compliance and found the locals hadn't been doing there job. there was a big fuss while back with an airline taking in airframes and flying them for weeks and then it was discovered that they didn't have half the paperwork to be flown. It was a lot of airframes and a lot of flight hours and found by chance. I suspect these tiger teams were started because of that.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
Thanks...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

I did notice when I went through a bunch of airplane accidents reports that at least the Swedish Accident Investigation Board was present if only as observers on all accidents on Swedish air crafts and companies and all foreign aircraft and companies if there was Swedish passengers onboard regardless of where the accident took place.
I guess that at least one reason is that they want to be sure to give the families a closure that they can trust as far as it goes.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Lack of training seems to be more likely than lack of authority. This statement in the brief is telling

Quote (Report AV2022004 October 20, 2021 - Results in Brief)

FAA accepted insufficient root causes in part because FAA inspectors were not adequately trained on root cause analysis.
It would not be too surprising if American also has training issues in root cause analysis. It's not easy.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Same this side of the pond.

I think we have a three tier system were we do it it internally and then farm it out for checking and then it goes to the local caa then that gets audited by EASA.

I really don't know much about it.

The SMS is a beast of a system.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

The FAA directors resignation is in. Think he has two months hand over period.

Must admit he had the max and the 5g to deal with.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

You'd think that whould have expidited his resignation.
In any case, way overdue.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Why he didn't seem to be doing that bad a job.

Or maybe to good a job making Boeing do things properly is the issue.

Pretty much all of their products have major issues at the moment. And as the FAA has lost mutual certification nothing will improve Boeing's problems which are a big picture management issue.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Surely not worth the headaches all that would entail.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

I wouldn't do it that's for sure.

Suspect there is also a political element.

Especially the 5g stuff the FAA are in dead man's corner what ever they do. And the FCC seem to have more clout than the faa

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

USA. There's always. That said, PP, the moderate right Partido Popular here had a total meltdown yesterday with full scale internal war resulting from Madrid regional president's brother alleged receipt of up to 300K € "commission" for arranging mask purchase contracts. We are used to PP problem with corruption. Every 2 yrs they have a corruption related meltdown of one kind or another. If not them, then it's the royal family. Worse than the Sauds. Neither can manage to keep their hands out of the cookie jar. PP was Franco's old party. They learned well from him, but today you have to be secret about it. They haven't learned that part of it ...yet. Dumb as goats.

It's surprising that any part of the US gov can function after the last few years, if any part is I mean. The DOI had the highest corruption level in US history. Even the IRS investigating division was gutted and can't get refunded still. Nobody's minding the shop ... at any checkout counter. The only solution is buy more guns. 5G is hardly on the radar.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

I suspect he can see the writing on the wall with the 5g stuff and a smoking hole in the ground in the not so distant future.

Was impossible to prevent them rolling it out round airports or making them have special cells like the French do.

But then when a plane full of high cost American passport holders spear in and billions of lawsuits start flying around he will be deemed personally responsible for not preventing it.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Flush the evidence. File the delay lawsuits. Plead the "5Gth".

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

He more than likely has morals and doesn't want to have to live with it.

He is a pilot not a politician. He is using his escape route.

I suspect the 1 in 1000000 chance of a fatality is way out the window as per normal acceptable risk.

And when you have 929 million flights per year peak in 2019 it's really not worth any salary. Linked to the fact he probably knows way way to much about the bulk of the hardware than he knew before the max.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Oh. So if he's a pilot, he's like all of the fabled 3 monkeys rolled into one, blind, deaf and dumb. No chance to survive. He's "ejecting".

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Pretty much, I would call it more well formed risk 3rd sense, knows way to much about the implications of what is being forced through by people who will never be accountable.

So eject eject

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Been there, done that. The oil pipeline across the Anatolian fault in Turkey will not survive the big one. Just a matter of time. I could not force them do it properly, so I didn't want any further involvement. I dont know if they fixed it in the end, or not. It wasn't looking hopeful. Fortunately the seismic activity has decreased since then.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Err isn't that a bad sign when it goes quiet short term its building up energy in the fault and then suddenly it will let rip?

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
I would suggest that it's not functioning...pipe

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Yeah. That's the active fault theory. Lots of little quakes are better than one big one. The Anatolian fault does seem to have zones of high power that have traveled west along the fault. Although I was in two 4.0 earthquakes right under us in the Ankara area during design phase, one 5.0 hit to the east at Erzincan during 2003 construction. I was taking a leak at 1:15 AM when that one happened. There have been more well to the west since, but I think its too early to call the eastern part totally inactive. The fault is thousands of km long and has been generally active for thousands of years. I dont think it's going away. We crossed it in the 1920 earthquake zone.




It's the ridge and valley zig-zagging down the center of the picture.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

its outside the MBA's 3 year bonus zone so they won't care

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Saw the movie. McDonald Douglas gets the Black Swan trophy. Updating my signature quote.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

The Boeing test pilot found not guilty.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

thumbsup2

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)

Quote (The Boeing test pilot found not guilty.)


The way things are going, I'm not surprised...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

I am not a lawyer, just trying to think logically about this situation with the Chief Test Pilot (CTP).

Given that the FAA was deceived then one of the statements below must be true. I say given because I do not have access to evidence as to whether the FAA was actually deceived, incompetent, deliberately blind or some combination:

1. The CTP participated in deceiving the FAA.
2. The CTP did not participate in deceiving the FAA.

Clearly the legal system indicated the belief based on evidence that statement 2 is true. However, as I see it, regardless of whether statement 1 is true or statement 2 is true, it is impossible for the CTP on his own or any other person on their own to hide the entire case from Boeing management and the FAA. Therefore, if criminal behavior occurred there should have been additional persons indicted for crimes.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Or #3. Insufficient evidence to prove, or disprove either of those, or to prosecute anyone else.

A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Or #4, jury decided to nullify. Less likely, but possible.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Quote:

Or #4, jury decided to nullify. Less likely, but possible.

Or, if the US, the jury deadlocked 11:1 to convict because one nimrod didn't understand the process.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
Trouble in paradise... gonna get worse, I suspect...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
It's just starting to get interesting again...

https://www.jpost.com/business-and-innovation/all-...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

When a corporation goes to the news they're looking for advertising or to pressure politicians. They're never there to express their concerns.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

It shouldn't be a political decision it should be up to the FAA and other regulator's.

The 10 is driving the changes to the other variants. Which have to be done.

737 is now dead anyway. It's utterly pointless enforcing this law. Should have been starting certification process.

Quiet what Boeing is going to do to replace it is anyone's guess

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Considering the number of military aircraft based on the 707-737 airframes I would assume this is Boeing's attempt to get federal funding to build a new design. This has worked well in the distant past but I don't think it's such a good idea with today's politics.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

After the fuss with the fight with airbus about government funding with both sides found to be taking the piss I can't see that working these days.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

As a maritimer, we have the Maritime Administration. They cooperated with private OPERATORS to produce classes of vessels that worked well for their service and the subsidies meant there were no corners cut. Today's MARAD cooperates with the BUILDERS to ensure every corner is cut.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

The subsidy fight was Boeing created much like the c series bun fight.

Both times it has backfired collosally. They are now cut off from government help. And the c series is now the Airbus A220 and everyone wants them.

And to boot it was pretty easy for airbus to get round the sanctions anyway.

Pure MBA and legal greed.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

And some more regulations coming in... Us pilots and cabin want a secondary door to the cockpit. Which they claim will stop terrorism.

The fact that everyone blocks the galley with carts before the bullet proof door is opened is not enough. They want a lockable perspex door which I predict will be permanently locked so the crew have the front toilets to themselves.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

You mean a sort of 'air lock' configuration, eh? Perhaps even where both doors couldn't be opened at one time. Not sure how that would play in the need to evacuate a plane in the an emergency. Of course, I would think that no matter what sort of emergency you had, the flight deck crew would be the last to leave the aircraft anyway.

When you first said a second door, I immediately visualized an 'escape hatch' type door to the exterior. Not sure what value that would be however...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

It would need to be open for takeoff and landing and part of the cabin preparation for emergency landing. The cockpit door is always locked at these points.

There is an escape hatch in the front and cut in sections in the rear.

And you would think they would be the last but in many cases this isn't the case that the Captain stays with the sinking ship until all are off. Which to be fair if the fire practise we do is anything to go by you have zero clue who is left onboard once you have killed the power.

Certain nationalities and toilets and toilet fit always generate huge conflicts. A lot of the US cabin crew want and do reserve one toilet for crew only which to me is a bit unfair when it only leaves you with 1 or 2 for 150 people. They also run with the seat belt signs on all the time what ever the weather conditions. I might add i have seen it on US airways and delta but have never frown with ASW so it may be a legacy airline issue.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Has not this terrorism thing gone too far.
The incident rate seems to be too low, even at high cost, to justify adding a door. Far greater cost than adding a second MCAS switch, which didn't happen because of extra costs, right?
Plus it would only affect those incidents where a terrorist, or "mental case" would want access to the flight deck. On a cost-benefit basis, that money is probably better spent in reducing school shootings.
And big bombs would still work.
Maybe they should write that down on a wish list and put it under their pillow?
Seems to me that, if you do this, the terrorists have indeed succeeded.
I'm all for as much safety as possible, but at first glance, definitely heading OTT.

TX/Republican gov solution would just be to have all pilots and crew carry guns.


Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Agreed 1503, Which is why I think its being driven by a desire to prevent pax going to the forward galley and toilet. The American unions have been trying for years to force USA airlines to have a crew only "restroom". Some longhaul aircraft which are set up for heavy crew operations do have them as part of the crew rest setup. But the short and medium haul there just isn't the space. 200 pax onboard and 50% of the toilets removed from pax use just because some geriatric old witch number one wants her own commode is unreasonable.

There is data from since 9/11 cockpit doors being fitted. They have also have a load of people in the front who can carry a hand gun. Which I might add has caused way more "safety incidents" than they have solved which isn't hard as its solved absolutely no incidents.

Realistically the mental cases people get very excited about also with trying to open hull doors in flight. Most of them are plug doors these days and in cruise it has 0.74 bar keeping in its hole on 2.5m2 of door. Crack on and try and open it, leave them alone until we get the plane on the ground and medical professionals can deal with them.

There is very few incidents involving them as well. Less than I expected.

And I would love to have kids visit the cockpit during the cruise again. Its what got me going on this career path when I was 11 years old flying to Rhodes on a 757.

Your meant to go stretch your legs every hour to help prevent DVT. I quite often end up in the forward galley with some young person asking questions about the plane. And then when on the ground they get to visit up front. Some crew absolutely hate it and consider it unprofessional.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

That's great. I still remember when I was awarded a wings pin during a flight deck visit in the 1950's, probably on a DC-4, which was also responsible for igniting my interest in aviation. I'd say just the opposite. Giving kids the inspiration they need to get interested in anything is highly professional.

I can't say I wouldn't want a private crew only loo these days. Probably more justifiable as an occupational health and safety feature. Terrorism doesn't have the numbers to back up that reasoning. And its already well overdone anyway.

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Send the crew to the loo in the far aft. The trip will be highly educational.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Rear galley is a brutal work place. We have quite a few positioning flights with lots of crew onboard sometimes 4-5 sets which is 25 people. And they put us in the last rows. Sometimes causes grief though because some cabin crew want the place like a sauna and one of the pilots just goes to visit their mates in the front and turns the temp down and cabin crew only have -+3 degs to play with. the rest of the males on the flight are very happy. Cabin crew claim they are freezing when its 27 degs. Its to do with the air humidity and air movement when they are moving trolleys about. Most plane types suffer if the overhead gasper vents aren't open. I used to go down the Q400 cabin and open them all up when I accepted an aircraft.

Anyway flight deck won't want to go past the forward galley station for security reasons.

As for occupational health most food preparation areas have a toilet opening into them.

They have tried that argument before and failed.

It seems to be an American issue with unisex public toilets. What gets me is the number of pax that go into aircraft toilets in just their socks.

Seems the security card might do the trick this time though.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

This one's for you Alistair...

While this is not directly related to the 737-MAX, it's still something that you'd think someone would have come-up with a way to prevent this from happening:

Plane fails to descend as pilots reportedly fell asleep during flight

http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/pilots-reported-...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

There is on some aircraft. But the 800 is the same as the max in that department. A220 doesn't have one. But there are loads of beep burps top of descent alerts etc.

It's usually sop, checking by cabin crew and cockpit etiquette.

There is a procedure called controlled rest for one person taking a nap.. Where cabin crew are informed and a few other things. Most people set an alarm timer on there phones/efb just incase the other person falls asleep and the cabin crew check on us.

There really is nothing happening in that part of the world in the cruise in the middle of the night You get 1 hour plus between nav points and ATC don't talk to you or anyone else.

The distances on a mercator chart at that latitude are colossal if your a high latitude person like we are.





RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
It's probably still more safe than a Tesla... pipe

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

There was a flight over the US where that happened a good 10 years ago and I believe maybe an Atlantic crossing flight a couple of years ago.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

It happens reasonably frequently in some parts of the world. But usually the public don't find out about it.

Also loss of coms happens regularly, in fact I heard an interception today due to a coms mix up. Which costs big money if it turns out to be the pilots fault.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Quote:

There was a flight over the US where that happened a good 10 years ago and I believe maybe an Atlantic crossing flight a couple of years ago.

Then there was Payne Stewart's plane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Le... wherein everyone was supposedly knocked unconscious by hypoxia and the plane flew on autopilot until it ran out of fuel

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

That was the cause of the Helios crash as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Fligh...

That era of pressurisation systems were a bit of a nightmare to be honest. They were through analogue controllers and it took a refined touch on the controls of them to keep things comfortable. A ruff twist of a knob could give you an abrupt 3000ft/min cabin pressure change which is agony if your not expecting it. And you watched them like a hawk if you had any sense.

Modern avionics/aircraft have a Automated emergency decent system the system. It is digital. Pressurisation you can run in manual mode if a tech issues is present, no real change to SOP's or system configuration. But they have the minimum MEL lifespan on them so you get 3 days to get them to a technician to get them fixed. That era of aircraft it was 10 days and the amount of reconfiguration and SOP changes created an accident waiting to happen and it often did. MAX has the same issues as its a major recertification change and would have triggered pilot sim training.

The EDS system is quite wonderful to watch in the sim. The cabin pressure decreases, it triggers it automatically sets target alt of 15000ft and speed protected decent mode power comes off and you start decent. The rubber jungle comes down in the back and it changes the transponder to squawking 7700 which lets ATC know you have a problem. TCAS and mode S change mode to emergency so other aircraft know your not playing and they have to resolve any conflict. And it automatically triggers a PA to the pax telling them what to do with the Jungle drop down masks etc. If its not pressurisation issue which has triggered it automatically, but a pilot button push then it will sort that out as well to give max 1000ft/min cabin pressure change even if it gives a temporary pressure limitation of the hull. There is a risk of implosion with rapid docents but they have some form of 2 envelope limitations which the pressurisation can use but pilots can't which keeps peoples ears safe. There is an unlinked protection system which will protect the hull from a ultimate limitation bust but its just a simple sprung loaded inflow valve and if your going down at 6000ft/min that's what the cabin will do. I might add this is not for the pax if a pilot blows an ear drum out their mental capacity and ability is severely down graded. 4 mins after its triggered from 41 000ft your at 15000ft at a safe speed with full protections high speed and low speed. The next generation they are going to add terrain protection off the EGPWS so it will step decent you over anything higher than 14000ft.

On the A220 so far its never been triggered for real outside Airworthiness and delivery test flights. Our tech pilot says its even better than we see in the sim watching it in real life. And feed back from ATC tracks show an extremely smooth stable profile with minimal fuss. Which manual emergency docents sometimes get a bit aerobatic with speed. In fact we are told to manually press the button if we need to do an emergency decent and let it do its job. I think a couple of of manual trigger docents have been performed for real on the A220 but as they were none events no accident reports exist for them.

Due to the main line Airbus models groups being of 1980's vintage they don't have the EDS but the A350 does. There are a few Biz jets certified in the last 10 years which also have it.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

First it was pilots being asleep in the cockpit, now we have a couple who were throwing punches:

Air France Suspends Pilots After Mid-Air Disagreement

The altercation happened in June on a flight between Paris and Geneva, and the pilots have been removed from active flying.


https://simpleflying.com/air-france-suspends-pilot...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Brings new meaning to the phrase "Fight or Flight"

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

lloks like the max 10 is utterly screwed now and into political nonsense. feel really sorry for the Boeing labour force making them could be a lot out of work at xmas.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

i am on about the 10

if its not certified by 1st of jan then the cockpit needs upgraded to 1980 standards and not the 1960's which it currently is. this is a major differences which will require a new type rating for pilots and technicians so nobody will touch it.

Without it in the max fleet production and basically everything else will become so uneconomic over night it will in the same league as nuclear war for boeing. It will basically wipe out all profits since the 60's for the 737 fleet in one swoop and turn it to a loss making product line. And that's not even touching on the bonuses paid to people running the fleet. It will turn a 90 year lifespan profitable product into a loss over night and the fleet will continue to accumulate loss until boeing can dump the OEM support. When pre max it was a recorded breaking product line.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
I suspect strongly that the govmint will step in to help... there's a purpose for political donations... ponder

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Well i would say it should have done 3 months ago because its a government law that has set the time limit.

Waiting until Nov elections is just plain stupid.


But its seems to be a politician decision not a engineering risk analysis. Lets face it the rest of the MAX fleet is a pile of crap on modern safety standards and certification what difference does it make if a max 10 is added to fleet of frankistine dwarf geared geriatric none compliant tubes. even if they fix the cockpit its still a turd.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
Wow...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

come on its hardly a surprise, its polishing a turd of a 1960's design if you have let the MAX 7,8and 9 fly .

Only thing is the rest of the world has a conditional release of certification of the 7,8 and 9 on the fact that a colossal amount of certification issues which should have stopped it ever being permitted to be allowed to flying doating back to the NG flying should be sorted and mods doe off the back of the max 10 redesign.

The FAA on aircraft certification is now the ginger grandchild of aircraft certification absolutely nobody will trust them and Boeing has to do virgin certification in every authority. the aircraft have been released but every single one will need mods before full releases And the mods are not small we can get these done in 4 hours over night they are strip it down and in the hanger for three weeks.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
I'm not into aviation... and it is a bit of a surprise, at least to me.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Fair enough. To emphasize I support them just extending it and getting the whole MAX issue finished with. The political interference time scales is the main issue. I also don't like the time pressure which was a huge factor in creating the problem in the first place.

It's in nobody's interest to have a monopoly on high volume aircraft production.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

So you're saying "SELL" or "SHORT" now?

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Not really. But an arbitrary time limit for something which needs to be done properly for safety is counter productive. Fair enough saying any other new types in that family certified require to have it but something that has already had the bulk of it done can't see the point. Its just coving up past mistakes by the regulator who should have insisted on this change when it certified the 737-800 NG range.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Did I see that Starliner lost their bid?

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Not yet, but they've been delayed once again:

Starliner Needs Even More Fixes, and Probably won’t Carry Astronauts Until 2023

https://www.universetoday.com/157446/starliner-nee...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Have a look at the 777x program as well.

And the 787 production issues.

Pretty much every product line has issues.



RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Alistair,

I think that statement would apply to all manufacturing.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Maybe in Russia

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Maybe one of the Industrial Engineers here can enlighten us on that. But I can't think of a major manufacturer which hasn't had problems at one time or another. And that's just the ones we know about.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Individual issues yes I would agree. But at the moment they have major certification issues on all the main production lines that have been certified in the last 15 years.

767 seems to be doing ok though.

I would class certification issues and ordered production halts by the regulator to be in a different league to your regular manufacturing snags. And normally those snags only cover one product line. Not the majority of the products.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Would you say it's more production manufacturing related issues, or more conceptual and practical design issues.

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Leadership and culture.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Right!
And I didn't even give you that choice.

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Not totally unexpected...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
If the FAA allows them to fly, considering "Pressed by European and Canadian aviation regulators, Boeing agreed to two system enhancements that will be introduced on the MAX 10 that significantly improve the crew alerting system. However, the model still doesn’t meet the latest FAA standard." does that make the US government liable for any crashes? Just curious what happens when an uncertified plane crashes...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

It won't be allowed to fly anywhere unless the FAA certifies it. It holds the base certification. The others approve it on the top of that for their registrations.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
Thanks, Alistair...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

There is also a load of mods needed to the 8 and 9' which they are meant to be doing the certification during the 7 and 10 process.

Personally I think it would be safer for everyone if the politicians just granted the extension now so every thing can be done properly without time pressure.

Instead of using it as political point scoring pissing match.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
It's going to heat up again:

"A federal judge in Texas ruled on Friday that relatives of people killed in the crashes of two Boeing 737 Max planes are crime victims under federal law and should have been told about private negotiations over a settlement that spared Boeing from criminal prosecution."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11342673/...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

As an aside Airbus and Airfrance are going back to court over the AF447 crash.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
Thanks, Alistair... I thought these were over and done with... there's a good chance the FAA will get drawn into it because of their lax efforts with Boeing. Never a dull moment. pipe

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

I think faa was only involved due to it holding the primary certification of the engine's.

This will revolved around Air France and Airbus.

It was a totally recoverable accident. Some would say it was pilot induced. If they had just taken the automatics out and kept everything as it was they would have survived.

But we shall see what comes out. The families, air France and Airbus all have very powerful connections.

I might add the original technical cause was sorted quiet quickly afterwards. Unsure airspeed and stalling was already mandatory in the three year training cycle.

It has the potential to get quite messy but maybe another 10 plus years before it's finished with.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
The rules changed, I understand and that the FAA had little oversight with Boeing.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

In some ways the faa has had things stacked against them for years.

Much like the mobile phone issues they are not the final arbiter of all things aviation. Political influence has a huge role. But the faa is left carrying the can when things go wrong.

In some ways the AF case is the culmination of 30-40 years of issues as well with political input.

The Concorde investigation and court case is a prime example how things can go if there is anyone else that can be blamed.

Over weight, tailwind, poor airport management procedures... Nope it's all deltas fault.

This one it's french OEM, french crew, french operator, and French casualty's. Nobody else involved.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

And apparently the 7 and 10 are getting an extension with conditions on the 8 and 9 which will infuriate a lot of operators. Due yet more retraining and possible separate type rating from the NG which is how this whole thing kicked off.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
Good article Alistair... The FAA has dramatically changed over the last few decades, to the point is should be scrapped and a proper agency put in place. It is that, or my earlier perception of the outfit was wrong.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

The upgrade stuff is a bit strange to be honest.

The being able to turn the stick shaker off has been an on going battle between regulators and pilots since the 60's. All planes this side of the pond have to have it. Boeing, FAA and FAA pilots have been determined that having a CB pull is all that's required. Quite where they are going to put the switch is anyone's guess. I presume down next to LH pilot knee where the power system for it is. The lengths though that have been gone to to say its not require is quiet bizarre. One person even went to great lengths of working out what 0.5kg of system would work out with fuel over the aircraft lifespan. Personally I have had to turn off the stick shaker system 3 times in 20 years. In those cases we continued to destination where as if we couldn't it would be a land immediately. It really is a colossal distraction.

But basically EASA and others are saying it not going to fly unless you can do it via a switch so that argument is blown.

The artificial AoA display again isn't something commercial pilots are trained to use. Quite what your meant to do with that I don't know.

Pitch plus power equals performance is the way we are trained to deal with it.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

(OP)
Is EASA not in close contact with pilots and/or pilot associations for direct input?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Not really its turned into a political monster as well.

So yes they tick the boxes for industry stake holders but in realty they go with what the airlines and OEMS want.

There are occasional out right ignoring, the more than one cabin bag is case in point. Basically the politicians hijacked things to force through that they could take as many bags as they want into the cabin. And were completely oblivious to technical EASA, pilots, cabin crew etc that there was no physical space in the aircraft cabins to put 3 bags for each pax. This stupidity caused a feeling of dread every time I saw Brussels on my roster on a Monday or Friday on the Q400. The A220's bins don't have the same issue thankfully. BUt then again after COVID not as many politicians are doing the full week so the load is spread.

The classic case with EASA was when they regulated that all commercial hot air balloons were required to have an airspeed indicator.

All the problems with the MAX predate EASA and JAR to be honest. It was all national CAA's when the NG went through.

And the AoA gauge is not a EASA requirement. It was only that there was a voting system to spot AoA failure to disable the auto trim. It was a upgrade airlines could have paid for prior to the crashes but very few did. It was meant to be working on the crashed aircraft but there was software issues. I susepct most pilots would ignore it anyway and just go for unreliable airspeed procedure which is set a pitch and power and keep it in trim. Of course the crash crews had something else changing the trim.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

This stick shaker isolator has been been a colossal willy waving exercise. I suspect there was only maximum 20 people that actually really cared about it to stop it. And most of them must be dead now. There was a huge fuss about it when they shoe horned the NG certification through.

MAX they weren't changing anything they didn't have to hence the 1960's AOA sensors and system.

There was also having a stick pusher system fitted as well which is part and parcel of the setup. Mandatory with most CAA's pre JAR and FAA was requiring them to be disabled as part of the import compliance. The 737 300 onwards has a stick pusher i think, quite how this fits in with the changes i have no clue.. I have always had a button to kill that as well. Never need to use it though. FBW doesn't have a pusher.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Quote:

The classic case with EASA was when they regulated that all commercial hot air balloons were required to have an airspeed indicator.
That's worth a giggle. I wonder if I can track that down. Would you remember if you heard about it in an operating rule or an airworthiness rule?

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Airworthiness unfortunately, mandatory instruments to be carried.

It wasn't around long after the piss taking started. Around 2005 I think. It was that lovely period that people were flying on JAR pilots license, national AOC's, EASA medicals and a dirty mix of maint requirements while they sorted part M out. Thankfully I got my ATPL before the major shift to EASA.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

OK I did have to track it down. Not so silly as it sounded at first. A moment of thinking also helped.

EASA has separate rulebooks for different types of balloons. Tethered balloons ARE at risk in strong winds, therefore they must have wind speed instruments on board at all times. This is to protect the tethered balloon (and occupants) if wind speed increases. Consider not only the stress on the tether and the balloon bag, but on the suspension lines, too. And consider the moment of landing a tethered balloon in a strong wind... bumpy.

As we all know, free hot-air and lifting gas balloons follow the ambient air motion while flying. So in steady flight, the wind speed is zero. Having a wind speed instrument sounds redundant, right? But, that's assuming they don't have propulsion of some sort. Then airspeed applies again. And a free hot-air balloon is usually loaded and launched from a tether, therefore it starts every flight as a tethered balloon, meaning it DOES need an accurate measurement of wind speed to launch safely. Safety during landing also plays a part in the need to know wind speed.

So like many aviation things, what seems at first to be unnecessary, turns out to be essential to safe operation, once you know enough about it.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

That's reasonable, but originally it was for all including commercial hot air free roaming balloons. Which was a bit silly. They are not tethered when launching only ballast and there is an anemometer present. While they fill the envelope. And the basket starts off horizontal then relatively late on gets turned to vertical.

It was originally a pitot airspeed requirement not a weather station style wind vector display which I believe is now normal. As I say it came out, the piss taking started and it was removed in a matter of days. Sounds like they have completely reworked that section. I must admit outside CAT ops fixed wing i really have very little up to date knowledge. That period I still had a FI and a national CofA and permit aircraft flight test authorisation on SEP class aircraft and a few sub sets. Since I allowed them to lapse mainly due to cost I have no requirement to keep that knowledge area current. And it is utterly colossal and changes regularly. I can only imagine what's happening in the UK now they have left EASA, the CAA had basically stripped out all its technical competence to EASA years ago and became a licensing issuing authority on the aircraft side of things.

I have helped at a launch a couple of times its actually extremely interesting. But I wouldn't exactly call it fun...

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

I wonder what regulations there is for this kind of aircraft?



Merry Christmas everyone. santa2

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

This time of year there are various things happen in various circles which would normally be frowned about for being immature.

NORAD for years have done an excellent Santa tracker

They go to serious effort with it as well.

https://www.noradsanta.org/en/






RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

rofl

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

The BEA seems to be coming out with reports about the Ethiopian accident (according to Flight) ... pointing the finger (in part) at crew training.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

Yep, it's a fair call, there is multiple issues with everything. As with all aviation accidents.

Ethiopian is deemed to be actually 1st world with training and has all the kit to do it. Air France is 3rd world with all the kit.

In this case the OEM was preventing training due contractual penalties and compulsory training with type ratings.

The whole reason why this developed is extremely dirty and the customer is at fault as well.



RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]

But pro Boeing die hard's are still determined that the aircraft was safe and it wasn't.

You will never change that opinion.

But after reading it, the point they are making is 100% correct. But it also crosses over to the crew reactions in AF477 with the unreliable airspeed and stall recovery.

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