Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
(OP)
thread815-445840: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 1]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 1]
thread815-450258: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]
thread815-452000: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]
thread815-454283: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]
thread815-457125: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]
thread815-461989: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]
thread815-466401: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]
thread815-473001: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8]
Looks like Boeing is still having fun...
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58483150
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
thread815-450258: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]
thread815-452000: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]
thread815-454283: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]
thread815-457125: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]
thread815-461989: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]
thread815-466401: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]
thread815-473001: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8]: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8]
Looks like Boeing is still having fun...
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58483150
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Win or lose, it may send a powerful and important message to other boards of directors, CEOs and managers.
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
As expected they are going after the little people.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
He better hope he has someone further up the food chain to flip on.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
'Forkner, 49, was charged with two counts of fraud involving aircraft parts in interstate commerce and four counts of wire fraud.'
...but I'm not a lawyer.
More from DOJ- https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-boeing-737-m...
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
And as usual I got a bit annoyed, there is no visible date when this was done.
And I do understand that some information need to be excluded for one reason or another, but this is ridiculous!
You can't even se what there conclusion of this investigation was.
https://www.faa.gov/foia/electronic_reading_room/b...
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Doesn't sound fun.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Brad Waybright
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
As it was a delivery flight it will have had senior crew onboard. And when your brand new purchase does that to you...
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Might be of interest to some
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
When the regulators went to the SMS systems they isolated themselves from the OEM's and airlines responsibility of it not being done correctly. Both were meant to ensure there own compliance using SMS, engineering is only one side of it flight ops have another parallel setup using sms. So like this pilot getting done they have someone in the middle to blame and the FAA and OEM/Airline just point at them when something goes wrong.
Then the regulator then audits the compliance systems. Which is the reason why I put in the MAX thread because that's what fell over letting MCAS through.
EASA has the same system.
EASA through sends auditors/inspectors out from different countries so there is not the local bias or ability of the OEM or airline to influence the inspectors. Basically a Spanish inspector is not interested about a cushy job in Denmark or Ireland. And they move them round regularly and its a different nationality every time. And when the inspection is done its auditing the local CAA more than anything else who do the normal inspections/audits.
I don't have the big picture with it all though not by a long shot. Just know that there is a small army of people in every airline keeping the information flowing into the system and closing events. And we do get pulled occasionally, a mate pilot got an hour in the office for doing a special reset under direction on the phone. It worked they came home. But there was no entry in the tech log because the tech didn't tell him 2. A month later the system picked it up that this was an event which should have been documented that had been done and there was no record of it. So interviews were done, manuals changed.
From the way I read it a tiger team (my own term for them) were parachuted in to check compliance and found the locals hadn't been doing there job. there was a big fuss while back with an airline taking in airframes and flying them for weeks and then it was discovered that they didn't have half the paperwork to be flown. It was a lot of airframes and a lot of flight hours and found by chance. I suspect these tiger teams were started because of that.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
And here is as good as any. I suspect the max and NG will have the same rad alt as the classics.
So will have issues
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
I guess that at least one reason is that they want to be sure to give the families a closure that they can trust as far as it goes.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
I think we have a three tier system were we do it it internally and then farm it out for checking and then it goes to the local caa then that gets audited by EASA.
I really don't know much about it.
The SMS is a beast of a system.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=489950
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
https://www.netflix.com/au/title/81272421?s=a&...
Fascinating viewing!
http://julianh72.blogspot.com
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Must admit he had the max and the 5g to deal with.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
In any case, way overdue.
A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Or maybe to good a job making Boeing do things properly is the issue.
Pretty much all of their products have major issues at the moment. And as the FAA has lost mutual certification nothing will improve Boeing's problems which are a big picture management issue.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Suspect there is also a political element.
Especially the 5g stuff the FAA are in dead man's corner what ever they do. And the FCC seem to have more clout than the faa
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
It's surprising that any part of the US gov can function after the last few years, if any part is I mean. The DOI had the highest corruption level in US history. Even the IRS investigating division was gutted and can't get refunded still. Nobody's minding the shop ... at any checkout counter. The only solution is buy more guns. 5G is hardly on the radar.
A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Was impossible to prevent them rolling it out round airports or making them have special cells like the French do.
But then when a plane full of high cost American passport holders spear in and billions of lawsuits start flying around he will be deemed personally responsible for not preventing it.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
He is a pilot not a politician. He is using his escape route.
I suspect the 1 in 1000000 chance of a fatality is way out the window as per normal acceptable risk.
And when you have 929 million flights per year peak in 2019 it's really not worth any salary. Linked to the fact he probably knows way way to much about the bulk of the hardware than he knew before the max.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
So eject eject
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
It's the ridge and valley zig-zagging down the center of the picture.
A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
The way things are going, I'm not surprised...
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Given that the FAA was deceived then one of the statements below must be true. I say given because I do not have access to evidence as to whether the FAA was actually deceived, incompetent, deliberately blind or some combination:
1. The CTP participated in deceiving the FAA.
2. The CTP did not participate in deceiving the FAA.
Clearly the legal system indicated the belief based on evidence that statement 2 is true. However, as I see it, regardless of whether statement 1 is true or statement 2 is true, it is impossible for the CTP on his own or any other person on their own to hide the entire case from Boeing management and the FAA. Therefore, if criminal behavior occurred there should have been additional persons indicted for crimes.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
A black swan to a turkey is a white swan to the butcher ... and to Boeing.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Or, if the US, the jury deadlocked 11:1 to convict because one nimrod didn't understand the process.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
https://www.jpost.com/business-and-innovation/all-...
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
The 10 is driving the changes to the other variants. Which have to be done.
737 is now dead anyway. It's utterly pointless enforcing this law. Should have been starting certification process.
Quiet what Boeing is going to do to replace it is anyone's guess
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Both times it has backfired collosally. They are now cut off from government help. And the c series is now the Airbus A220 and everyone wants them.
And to boot it was pretty easy for airbus to get round the sanctions anyway.
Pure MBA and legal greed.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
The fact that everyone blocks the galley with carts before the bullet proof door is opened is not enough. They want a lockable perspex door which I predict will be permanently locked so the crew have the front toilets to themselves.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
When you first said a second door, I immediately visualized an 'escape hatch' type door to the exterior. Not sure what value that would be however...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
There is an escape hatch in the front and cut in sections in the rear.
And you would think they would be the last but in many cases this isn't the case that the Captain stays with the sinking ship until all are off. Which to be fair if the fire practise we do is anything to go by you have zero clue who is left onboard once you have killed the power.
Certain nationalities and toilets and toilet fit always generate huge conflicts. A lot of the US cabin crew want and do reserve one toilet for crew only which to me is a bit unfair when it only leaves you with 1 or 2 for 150 people. They also run with the seat belt signs on all the time what ever the weather conditions. I might add i have seen it on US airways and delta but have never frown with ASW so it may be a legacy airline issue.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
The incident rate seems to be too low, even at high cost, to justify adding a door. Far greater cost than adding a second MCAS switch, which didn't happen because of extra costs, right?
Plus it would only affect those incidents where a terrorist, or "mental case" would want access to the flight deck. On a cost-benefit basis, that money is probably better spent in reducing school shootings.
And big bombs would still work.
Maybe they should write that down on a wish list and put it under their pillow?
Seems to me that, if you do this, the terrorists have indeed succeeded.
I'm all for as much safety as possible, but at first glance, definitely heading OTT.
TX/Republican gov solution would just be to have all pilots and crew carry guns.
Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
There is data from since 9/11 cockpit doors being fitted. They have also have a load of people in the front who can carry a hand gun. Which I might add has caused way more "safety incidents" than they have solved which isn't hard as its solved absolutely no incidents.
Realistically the mental cases people get very excited about also with trying to open hull doors in flight. Most of them are plug doors these days and in cruise it has 0.74 bar keeping in its hole on 2.5m2 of door. Crack on and try and open it, leave them alone until we get the plane on the ground and medical professionals can deal with them.
There is very few incidents involving them as well. Less than I expected.
And I would love to have kids visit the cockpit during the cruise again. Its what got me going on this career path when I was 11 years old flying to Rhodes on a 757.
Your meant to go stretch your legs every hour to help prevent DVT. I quite often end up in the forward galley with some young person asking questions about the plane. And then when on the ground they get to visit up front. Some crew absolutely hate it and consider it unprofessional.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
I can't say I wouldn't want a private crew only loo these days. Probably more justifiable as an occupational health and safety feature. Terrorism doesn't have the numbers to back up that reasoning. And its already well overdone anyway.
Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Anyway flight deck won't want to go past the forward galley station for security reasons.
As for occupational health most food preparation areas have a toilet opening into them.
They have tried that argument before and failed.
It seems to be an American issue with unisex public toilets. What gets me is the number of pax that go into aircraft toilets in just their socks.
Seems the security card might do the trick this time though.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
While this is not directly related to the 737-MAX, it's still something that you'd think someone would have come-up with a way to prevent this from happening:
Plane fails to descend as pilots reportedly fell asleep during flight
http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/pilots-reported-...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
It's usually sop, checking by cabin crew and cockpit etiquette.
There is a procedure called controlled rest for one person taking a nap.. Where cabin crew are informed and a few other things. Most people set an alarm timer on there phones/efb just incase the other person falls asleep and the cabin crew check on us.
There really is nothing happening in that part of the world in the cruise in the middle of the night You get 1 hour plus between nav points and ATC don't talk to you or anyone else.
The distances on a mercator chart at that latitude are colossal if your a high latitude person like we are.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Also loss of coms happens regularly, in fact I heard an interception today due to a coms mix up. Which costs big money if it turns out to be the pilots fault.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Then there was Payne Stewart's plane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Le... wherein everyone was supposedly knocked unconscious by hypoxia and the plane flew on autopilot until it ran out of fuel
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Fligh...
That era of pressurisation systems were a bit of a nightmare to be honest. They were through analogue controllers and it took a refined touch on the controls of them to keep things comfortable. A ruff twist of a knob could give you an abrupt 3000ft/min cabin pressure change which is agony if your not expecting it. And you watched them like a hawk if you had any sense.
Modern avionics/aircraft have a Automated emergency decent system the system. It is digital. Pressurisation you can run in manual mode if a tech issues is present, no real change to SOP's or system configuration. But they have the minimum MEL lifespan on them so you get 3 days to get them to a technician to get them fixed. That era of aircraft it was 10 days and the amount of reconfiguration and SOP changes created an accident waiting to happen and it often did. MAX has the same issues as its a major recertification change and would have triggered pilot sim training.
The EDS system is quite wonderful to watch in the sim. The cabin pressure decreases, it triggers it automatically sets target alt of 15000ft and speed protected decent mode power comes off and you start decent. The rubber jungle comes down in the back and it changes the transponder to squawking 7700 which lets ATC know you have a problem. TCAS and mode S change mode to emergency so other aircraft know your not playing and they have to resolve any conflict. And it automatically triggers a PA to the pax telling them what to do with the Jungle drop down masks etc. If its not pressurisation issue which has triggered it automatically, but a pilot button push then it will sort that out as well to give max 1000ft/min cabin pressure change even if it gives a temporary pressure limitation of the hull. There is a risk of implosion with rapid docents but they have some form of 2 envelope limitations which the pressurisation can use but pilots can't which keeps peoples ears safe. There is an unlinked protection system which will protect the hull from a ultimate limitation bust but its just a simple sprung loaded inflow valve and if your going down at 6000ft/min that's what the cabin will do. I might add this is not for the pax if a pilot blows an ear drum out their mental capacity and ability is severely down graded. 4 mins after its triggered from 41 000ft your at 15000ft at a safe speed with full protections high speed and low speed. The next generation they are going to add terrain protection off the EGPWS so it will step decent you over anything higher than 14000ft.
On the A220 so far its never been triggered for real outside Airworthiness and delivery test flights. Our tech pilot says its even better than we see in the sim watching it in real life. And feed back from ATC tracks show an extremely smooth stable profile with minimal fuss. Which manual emergency docents sometimes get a bit aerobatic with speed. In fact we are told to manually press the button if we need to do an emergency decent and let it do its job. I think a couple of of manual trigger docents have been performed for real on the A220 but as they were none events no accident reports exist for them.
Due to the main line Airbus models groups being of 1980's vintage they don't have the EDS but the A350 does. There are a few Biz jets certified in the last 10 years which also have it.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Air France Suspends Pilots After Mid-Air Disagreement
The altercation happened in June on a flight between Paris and Geneva, and the pilots have been removed from active flying.
https://simpleflying.com/air-france-suspends-pilot...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/32082-boeing-73...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
if its not certified by 1st of jan then the cockpit needs upgraded to 1980 standards and not the 1960's which it currently is. this is a major differences which will require a new type rating for pilots and technicians so nobody will touch it.
Without it in the max fleet production and basically everything else will become so uneconomic over night it will in the same league as nuclear war for boeing. It will basically wipe out all profits since the 60's for the 737 fleet in one swoop and turn it to a loss making product line. And that's not even touching on the bonuses paid to people running the fleet. It will turn a 90 year lifespan profitable product into a loss over night and the fleet will continue to accumulate loss until boeing can dump the OEM support. When pre max it was a recorded breaking product line.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Waiting until Nov elections is just plain stupid.
But its seems to be a politician decision not a engineering risk analysis. Lets face it the rest of the MAX fleet is a pile of crap on modern safety standards and certification what difference does it make if a max 10 is added to fleet of frankistine dwarf geared geriatric none compliant tubes. even if they fix the cockpit its still a turd.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Only thing is the rest of the world has a conditional release of certification of the 7,8 and 9 on the fact that a colossal amount of certification issues which should have stopped it ever being permitted to be allowed to flying doating back to the NG flying should be sorted and mods doe off the back of the max 10 redesign.
The FAA on aircraft certification is now the ginger grandchild of aircraft certification absolutely nobody will trust them and Boeing has to do virgin certification in every authority. the aircraft have been released but every single one will need mods before full releases And the mods are not small we can get these done in 4 hours over night they are strip it down and in the hanger for three weeks.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
It's in nobody's interest to have a monopoly on high volume aircraft production.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Starliner Needs Even More Fixes, and Probably won’t Carry Astronauts Until 2023
https://www.universetoday.com/157446/starliner-nee...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
And the 787 production issues.
Pretty much every product line has issues.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
I think that statement would apply to all manufacturing.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
767 seems to be doing ok though.
I would class certification issues and ordered production halts by the regulator to be in a different league to your regular manufacturing snags. And normally those snags only cover one product line. Not the majority of the products.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
And I didn't even give you that choice.
Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aeros...
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Personally I think it would be safer for everyone if the politicians just granted the extension now so every thing can be done properly without time pressure.
Instead of using it as political point scoring pissing match.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
October 21, 20229:21 PM EDT, U.S. judge: Passengers in fatal Boeing 737 MAX crashes are 'crime victims'
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
"A federal judge in Texas ruled on Friday that relatives of people killed in the crashes of two Boeing 737 Max planes are crime victims under federal law and should have been told about private negotiations over a settlement that spared Boeing from criminal prosecution."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11342673/...
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
This will revolved around Air France and Airbus.
It was a totally recoverable accident. Some would say it was pilot induced. If they had just taken the automatics out and kept everything as it was they would have survived.
But we shall see what comes out. The families, air France and Airbus all have very powerful connections.
I might add the original technical cause was sorted quiet quickly afterwards. Unsure airspeed and stalling was already mandatory in the three year training cycle.
It has the potential to get quite messy but maybe another 10 plus years before it's finished with.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Much like the mobile phone issues they are not the final arbiter of all things aviation. Political influence has a huge role. But the faa is left carrying the can when things go wrong.
In some ways the AF case is the culmination of 30-40 years of issues as well with political input.
The Concorde investigation and court case is a prime example how things can go if there is anyone else that can be blamed.
Over weight, tailwind, poor airport management procedures... Nope it's all deltas fault.
This one it's french OEM, french crew, french operator, and French casualty's. Nobody else involved.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aeros...
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
The being able to turn the stick shaker off has been an on going battle between regulators and pilots since the 60's. All planes this side of the pond have to have it. Boeing, FAA and FAA pilots have been determined that having a CB pull is all that's required. Quite where they are going to put the switch is anyone's guess. I presume down next to LH pilot knee where the power system for it is. The lengths though that have been gone to to say its not require is quiet bizarre. One person even went to great lengths of working out what 0.5kg of system would work out with fuel over the aircraft lifespan. Personally I have had to turn off the stick shaker system 3 times in 20 years. In those cases we continued to destination where as if we couldn't it would be a land immediately. It really is a colossal distraction.
But basically EASA and others are saying it not going to fly unless you can do it via a switch so that argument is blown.
The artificial AoA display again isn't something commercial pilots are trained to use. Quite what your meant to do with that I don't know.
Pitch plus power equals performance is the way we are trained to deal with it.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates
-Dik
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
So yes they tick the boxes for industry stake holders but in realty they go with what the airlines and OEMS want.
There are occasional out right ignoring, the more than one cabin bag is case in point. Basically the politicians hijacked things to force through that they could take as many bags as they want into the cabin. And were completely oblivious to technical EASA, pilots, cabin crew etc that there was no physical space in the aircraft cabins to put 3 bags for each pax. This stupidity caused a feeling of dread every time I saw Brussels on my roster on a Monday or Friday on the Q400. The A220's bins don't have the same issue thankfully. BUt then again after COVID not as many politicians are doing the full week so the load is spread.
The classic case with EASA was when they regulated that all commercial hot air balloons were required to have an airspeed indicator.
All the problems with the MAX predate EASA and JAR to be honest. It was all national CAA's when the NG went through.
And the AoA gauge is not a EASA requirement. It was only that there was a voting system to spot AoA failure to disable the auto trim. It was a upgrade airlines could have paid for prior to the crashes but very few did. It was meant to be working on the crashed aircraft but there was software issues. I susepct most pilots would ignore it anyway and just go for unreliable airspeed procedure which is set a pitch and power and keep it in trim. Of course the crash crews had something else changing the trim.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
MAX they weren't changing anything they didn't have to hence the 1960's AOA sensors and system.
There was also having a stick pusher system fitted as well which is part and parcel of the setup. Mandatory with most CAA's pre JAR and FAA was requiring them to be disabled as part of the import compliance. The 737 300 onwards has a stick pusher i think, quite how this fits in with the changes i have no clue.. I have always had a button to kill that as well. Never need to use it though. FBW doesn't have a pusher.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
It wasn't around long after the piss taking started. Around 2005 I think. It was that lovely period that people were flying on JAR pilots license, national AOC's, EASA medicals and a dirty mix of maint requirements while they sorted part M out. Thankfully I got my ATPL before the major shift to EASA.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
EASA has separate rulebooks for different types of balloons. Tethered balloons ARE at risk in strong winds, therefore they must have wind speed instruments on board at all times. This is to protect the tethered balloon (and occupants) if wind speed increases. Consider not only the stress on the tether and the balloon bag, but on the suspension lines, too. And consider the moment of landing a tethered balloon in a strong wind... bumpy.
As we all know, free hot-air and lifting gas balloons follow the ambient air motion while flying. So in steady flight, the wind speed is zero. Having a wind speed instrument sounds redundant, right? But, that's assuming they don't have propulsion of some sort. Then airspeed applies again. And a free hot-air balloon is usually loaded and launched from a tether, therefore it starts every flight as a tethered balloon, meaning it DOES need an accurate measurement of wind speed to launch safely. Safety during landing also plays a part in the need to know wind speed.
So like many aviation things, what seems at first to be unnecessary, turns out to be essential to safe operation, once you know enough about it.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
It was originally a pitot airspeed requirement not a weather station style wind vector display which I believe is now normal. As I say it came out, the piss taking started and it was removed in a matter of days. Sounds like they have completely reworked that section. I must admit outside CAT ops fixed wing i really have very little up to date knowledge. That period I still had a FI and a national CofA and permit aircraft flight test authorisation on SEP class aircraft and a few sub sets. Since I allowed them to lapse mainly due to cost I have no requirement to keep that knowledge area current. And it is utterly colossal and changes regularly. I can only imagine what's happening in the UK now they have left EASA, the CAA had basically stripped out all its technical competence to EASA years ago and became a licensing issuing authority on the aircraft side of things.
I have helped at a launch a couple of times its actually extremely interesting. But I wouldn't exactly call it fun...
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Merry Christmas everyone.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
NORAD for years have done an excellent Santa tracker
They go to serious effort with it as well.
https://www.noradsanta.org/en/
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
Ethiopian is deemed to be actually 1st world with training and has all the kit to do it. Air France is 3rd world with all the kit.
In this case the OEM was preventing training due contractual penalties and compulsory training with type ratings.
The whole reason why this developed is extremely dirty and the customer is at fault as well.
RE: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 9]
You will never change that opinion.
But after reading it, the point they are making is 100% correct. But it also crosses over to the crew reactions in AF477 with the unreliable airspeed and stall recovery.