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Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...
35

Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Interesting wording in that article,
"Erroneous"
"Mistake"
"Overcharged"

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Fischstabchen)

Redsnake,

Try to make a car or more complicated than a spoon or cup without petroleum products.

From the first Texas power.. thread.
I have moved the question and my answer to the thread.
thread815-479631: How to go green without failures and disasters?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:


The Public Utility Commission ignored its independent monitor’s recommendation to retroactively reduce the market price for power for at least part of the week of the winter storm.
Exactly what I said they should do.
But they've come up with this BS excuse.

Quote:


D’Andrea added that a retroactive decision would have winners and losers: “You don’t know who you’re hurting. And you think you’re protecting the consumer, and it turns out you’re bankrupting [someone else].”
[someone else]??? Meaning the brokers can't convert their paper gains to real money. I want to see the list of exactly who is getting bankrupted, besides the lite commercial and residential customers. Oh, its the brokers, brokers, brokers, speculators and hedge funds and ... Griddy. They can't pay, because they can't collect, because none of their clients have $17,000 to pay for FAKE MARKET POWER COSTS.
Roll back the market prices to actual Costs + 10% profit.
Real bills can be paid, fair profits made and all the rest are unfair paper gains and losses only.
Tear up the paper.
Problem solved.


RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Brazos Electric Power Cooperative going into Chapter 11 might also result in an inability of brokers to convert paper gains to cash, particularly since the CO-OP is supposed to pass the costs on to it's members, and on to their customers, potentially limited by Texas usury law. https://www.kxan.com/investigations/texas-electric... The storm event resulted in $1.8 billion bill from ERCOT to the CO-OP.

Fred

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I guess they didn't stop buying power like the higher price was supposed to force them do to keep the grid working. Silly people. They obviously should just have switched off and blacked out Waco.

Really, can you believe these guys at PUC. $20 to $9000 in a week!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The conspiracy theories are getting wild.
Biden manipulated the weather.
Bill Gates blocked the sun.
The snow was fake government snow.
The post, which was forwarded to other channels and viewed more than 150,000 times, falsely claimed that the situation in Texas "was a planned attack."
Prominent Republicans, Fox News hosts, and conservative websites have pushed the idea that wind and solar energy are to blame for Texas' disaster.
The right-wing narrative has also blamed the Green New Deal for the disaster, though no legislation from that leftist congressional climate-change proposal has passed.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

you forgot to include, "and the wealthy got more wealthy."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Dik)

you forgot to include, "and the wealthy got more wealthy."
I was listing conspiracy theories, not "The Cold Hard Facts of Life". grin
(Emphasis on "Cold")

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Free market works on a free market, not an oligopoly.
When the demand exceeds the supply, it is no longer a free market.
Someone is making billions of dollars in excess profit.
When the majority of the people accept grade 5 level knee jerk economics, the stage is set for real world economics to bankrupt them.
Remember; the same voters that let their elected representatives set the stage for this rip off, probably voted for Trump.
No, Hokie, I'm not blaming Trump.
I am pointing out that;
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Quote (Wiki)

In 1985, Kenneth Lay merged the natural gas pipeline companies of Houston Natural Gas and InterNorth to form Enron.[6]:3 In the early 1990s, he helped to initiate the selling of electricity at market prices and, soon after, Congress approved legislation deregulating the sale of natural gas. The resulting markets made it possible for traders such as Enron to sell energy at higher prices, thereby significantly increasing its revenue.[7] After producers and local governments decried the resultant price volatility and asked for increased regulation, strong lobbying on the part of Enron and others prevented such regulation.[7][8]

"And the rich got richer".

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

A simple solution going forward.
Full disclosure;

Legislation to require the following sentence to be included in all variable rate contracts.
The sentence to prominent, capitalized, and in large font.

BY SIGNING THIS DOCUMENT, I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE VARIABLE RATE THAT I AM CONTRACTING FOR MAY INCREASE FROM THE PRESENT RATE OF $0.10 PER KILO-WATT-HOUR TO A MAXIMUM RATE OF $9000 PER KILO-WATT-HOUR.

SIGNED___________________________

With this in mind, how about a class action suit seeking to void all consumer variable rate contracts on the grounds of lack of full disclosure?
Is a maximum price of $9000 per KWHr stipulated anywhere in the consumer contracts?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (waross)

Bill Gates blocked the sun.

Not going to bother to link it, but Mr Gates is actually floating a plan to block sunlight by dispersing particles in the atmosphere, because, you know...

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

He needs the cover of darkness to do the all the rest of his dirty deeds, right?
Hey, that could be why ERCOT turned the lights off too.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

But right. California at least recalled their governor. Tx sent Bush II to Washington.

Running as a peaker plant only, if it really is possible to operate solely in that manner, will have to change.  Running every hour of the year will result in the lowest cost/hr operating cost, but it isn't  possible when the demand is not there every hour of the year.  Neither is it fair to the consumers to define your operating cost  by assuming that you will only operate for the very few number of hours that maximum, market capped price will be in effect. That results in the maximum hourly operating cost. Yet it is apparent that there is room for these peaker plants to recover their investment and make a fair profit, if they can run for certain percentages of the time, I.e. during which electricity prices are above their break even costs including a fair profit.   The running costs for various generator types I've seen in widely published data is well known, so it is apparent that profits can be made at well below market cap levels.  Thus it would seem that all we have to do is decide what a fair profit is and dispatch electricity orders to available generators according to a running cost ranking.  Those with the lowest running costs get priority bookings, which would encourage lowest cost electricity production at all times.

We should also set a level playing field amongst all producers.  All approved generators should meet certain design standards and availability criteria, so no producer could have unfair competitive advantage by not winterizing, or otherwise providing appropriate equipment in his plant to operate inside whatever range of conditions his region would experience during, say a 25yr or a 50yr, or 100yr upset event condition.  Various equipment could be assigned different event criteria according to criticality of that equipment to the specific event in question and its likelihood of failure.  No generator would be allowed to inject, if it did not meet all criteria, perhaps even one of a max minimum_operating_cost, including whatever profit the genco targeted.  They would be forced to go offline by prohibition of the grid purchasing their electricity until their min op cost was reduced. No substandard electricity allowed.      

Dispatch of electricity orders to the gencos would have to be proportioned according to grid load, location of loads and gens, current and near future state prediction, and type of gen.  Base and variable loads would not be distributed solely by generator type, a certain percentage of each being proportioned to each gen according to type and response time in their ability to control output to some extent and the variability expected in demand and production predictions.  For example, solar might supply some % base load, some % of variable load and do some battery charging of reserves.  Nothing says that coal electricity must be used for base load only, that's just the ideal purpose of building such a plant.  The part of base load they replaced from coal or nuclear production could be compensated for by directing some of the coal power to pumped storage, battery charging, or in future, maybe to H2 production with the rest being used for the remaining base load not supplied by other means.  Once in the grid, the electricity doesn't have labels of origen and may be used for a multitude of purposes.   The storage provider will pay for electricity going in and will receive payment for that going out.  Maybe it will be possible to store it at low prices and release it when higher market prices prevail.  Depends on how risk sharing arrangements are made, or not.

If some sharing of base and peaker loads cannot be made practical, then peakers will have to be paid for spinning reserves or standby capacity and be compensated without actually injecting power into the grid.  Maybe plants with multiple generators will need to go to split duty, being called upon to generate and inject from 1 unit for enough hours when prices are within one, or two standard deviations of  average price - their running costs to recover their yearly costs and a reasonable profit for all units.  I haven't run any numbers on this, but it seems possible to a large extent to be able to do that.

In any case, it certainly seems impossible to continue running large grids that have little means to control supply and demand by nothing other than setting near arbitrary caps probably by people that most likely have little experience or any idea of what they are playing with and can set that can change at a moments notice by several orders of magnitude.  

Oh wait. We're probably doing a lot of that, except for design standards and setting moving average + 1 Std.dev price caps.

The days of the "Texas Cowboy Grid" certainly seem to be numbered.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Anyone want to take a bet on when this blows over? There will be:
  • A lot of watered down legislation, kind of rewarding utilities for winterizing their plants,
  • the lobbyists will mobilize,
  • the legislation will be changed so you're rewarded no matter what you do and
  • this will be repeated in another 10 years.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (this will be repeated in another 10 years.)


I suspect their next 100 year snowfall will be a lot sooner...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

With billions of dollars in free money available millions will be spent on lobbying.
Fairness? Honesty? Common sense? These don't stand a chance against the money that will be spent on lobbying.
Do away with variable rate plans and the industry will find a way to cope and keep the power on.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

3
Dik,

A 100 year event doesn't mean it happens every 100 years. It just means that there is a 1/100 chance of it happening each year. Even then, the data is so sparse that I don't think anyone can draw hard conclusions about it being more or less. It appears that warmer weather is moving further north but I get tired of people claiming that correlates into more hurricanes or other weather events. It is a postulation put forth with very little to no evidence. It often is merely politicizing a weather event for the battle against climate change.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

My understanding is that a 100 year event is an intensity that you can expect every 100 years... it doesn't mean that you cannot have one the next day... just less likely. The magnitude of 100 year events will likely increase in the next little while...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

How I described it is how it is described by insurance policies and flood maps and such in the U.S.

What evidence do you have because I find nothing aside from experts saying they don't really know.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Just from information I have in statistics... given an event, they can be ranked in levels of intensity (or whatever) and as the event becomes more 'extreme' it will occur less likely... a 100 year event is of an intensity that it will likely occur within a 100 year time period... a 1000 year time event (seismic or whatever) can be expected to occur within 1000 years. It does't mean that you can't have two 100 year events within a much shorter duration.

Also from the net..."A 100-year event (or 100-year return period event) is an event that occurs (or is exceeded) on average once in every one hundred years (such as a storm, flood or rainfall event)"

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (It often is merely politicizing a weather event for the battle against climate change.)


Climate change has been politicised... just like the Coronavirus... because it diminishes the consequences of it... the American death tole is in excess of half a million and growing... masks and isolation help, these are real facts and not political spin. By saying it's political spin, if gives the impression it is something of lesser importance.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I still remember all the fuss about 50/100 year waves. The invention of doppler radar satellites and nonlinear wave theory show they are daily events its just bad luck if your near one when it happens.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

No. It is not the same as the corona virus because there is very strong science beyond everything related to the virus. There is no strong evidence saying that there will be more hurricanes or cold snaps in warm regions. The climate is changing and there appears to be in part due to human factors but there are no strong evidences or models as the consequences of that. All I see is doom saying and total shutdowns on any discussions to resolve climate change that don't involve a immediate complete overhaul of energy global energy production, which is unlikely to happen or happen at a rate climate environmentalist would like due to politics and not every country has the means. The eruption of Pinatubo in 1991 had a very clear impact on global temperatures due to the particulates reaching the stratosphere. It would be in our capabilities to disperse something like chalk into the stratosphere to cool down the planet but any idea like this gets shouted down because it doesn't push the agenda and global warming is not an immediate crisis. I don't think anyone has even shown with any strong evidence that even if all green measures are taken, that the earth will start cooling down. Climate change environmentalist do themselves as much of a disservice as climate deniers by making overreaching claims and asserting control of the narrative.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

@Fischstabchen: When an ostrich puts his head in the sand... you know what part is exposed. I'm not going to debate climate change... ignoring it is like grouping without wearing masks...

I remember a Far Side cartoon (I think) about the Lion approaching the Ostrich saying the he could still see the bird and that wasn't sand, but was his litter box...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If climate change were truly existential the solution would be a shutdown and not a reconstruction. The green movement is a farce on its face. That is all. Obviously we need to evolve as as technology changes but green is wrong.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

A farce it maybe, but nothing changes the fact that a market signal like that is used in the electric industry is ineffective at reducing demand.
How would you know if your electric prices changed?
Unlike gas, there is no price posted, and unless you had a smart heater that refused to turn on if the price was too high, what good would it be for you to know the price?

The electric is not a free market. It is very much a regulated market, with some free market ideas on how people can take advantage.

This should all be laid at the feet of government.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

You are creating strawman arguments instead of having a actual discussion. The science on COVID-19 is pretty sound. What we don't know is what the longterm consequences are of having had the virus. In comparison, climate change science is rather wishy washy. People make unfounded claims all the time and it is to the point that it is identity politic. Someone can't question the conclusions AND be an environmentalist. It appears that people have affected the climate but no one really has sound answers on questions like below:

1. If you have to go back to 1750-1800 to see flat atmospheric CO2 concentrations, is it even reasonable to expect that the people can reduce their emissions to the point that CO2 concentrations start to drop?

2. What would CO2 emissions need to be for the sequestration of carbon to exceed emissions?

3. How much of an immediate crisis is it that global temperatures are rising and what makes it a crisis?

4. Is it even feasible to get every country on board on a zero carbon agenda?

5. If it is a crisis, how come alternative methods on how to cool the planet are not seriously being looked into? Bill Gates is basically self funding a Harvard pilot study. Why does he even have to do that himself?

6. What is to be done with the current global fleet of power generation? Is the expectation to shutdown every facility prematurely and build wind, solar, and battery farms in its place? If so, who pays for this?

7. Will climate change increase, decrease, or not change the frequency of weather events like hurricanes? If so, what proof is there and why?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fisch,

Quote:

Even then, the data is so sparse that I don't think anyone can draw hard conclusions about it being more or less.

There are hundreds of years of data that are always getting better in quality as new events recorded every day are verifying or revising previous ideas and updating newer ones, so actually yes you can draw conclusions. Specific conclusions about design conditions for offshore platforms in the Gulf of Mexico were drawn after analysis of data from Hurricane Katrina and other storms during 2004-2008 hurricane seasons for wind, current and wave heights. In 2009 design conditions for offshore platforms were revised. Wind speeds, current velocities and wave heights all increased. Prior to the analysis of the 2004-2008 storms, the 100 yr design wave height was 72ft. That was increased to 91ft, a 25% increase. https://jptspe.org/remediating-platforms-raising-t...

Rogue waves are the result of near-random additive and destructive combinations of long waves arriving at a single point from what can be many different locations in the entire ocean in question. I say near-random, because they have been found to be more prevalent in certain regions where there are unusual wind and current interactions, such as off the coast of Good Hope, South Africa. The appearance of long waves and their amplitudes have no known direct association to waves generated by any specific hurricane or other known phenomena, as it is thought they are an additive and focused combination of waves generated by what may be many unidentifiable events occurring at widely diverse sources.

Otherwise, it hardly makes sense to hit the accelarator when the RR crossing lights are flashing.
It was just a inconvenient coincidence that last year was the world's hottest summers in a string of records of hottest and this winter might be one of the coldest on record.





RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44,

I am not a person who doesn't think it is better to reduce CO2 emissions but what are the consequences. You want to call this a cold winter but it has been mild even up in minnesota. You can't justify retiring a entire global fleets of generation without a layout of what the differences in consequences will be between a fast or slow transition or even if it is possible to reduce global warming/CO2 concentrations. In a world with infinite wealth and resources, everyone would just transition immediately and be done with it but we don't live in that world.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Hummm. Its not a record heat wave in 21 places so that doesn't make it a cold winter, no?
I think I finally understand the logic behind the climate change deniers reasoning. Write everything with multiple double negatives and it works. But I still have one question. Why did all that snow fall so far south and "Minnesota was mild"? Did Minnesota change climates with Texas?
Oh wait. Isn't THAT a perfect example of climate CHANGE? Now I'm confused again. It was so perfect.

Let's not go farther into the weeds. I gave you an example of design conditions changing, but you ignored that. It changed because the Gulf climate has changed. It wasn't done to prove or disprove a theory, but to conform to changes apparent in the latest data observations.

I'm not retiring anything. Most of that old stuff is ready for the bin anyway and can disappear by attrition. A couple of TX coal feeders are scheduled to be deactivated within a few years and the nukes don't have much more shelf life in them either. Just clean up the smoke stacks, capture the CO2 and we can use that to inject it into New Mexico's oil wells and squeeze some more out to keep the cars going until we retire those too.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I am not a denier but you are confusing changes with negative consequences. Negative consequences has to be what motivating reason for prematurely retiring 90+% of the world's generation. I don't see anyone showing what the consequences would be if the transition was slower. I haven't even seen a good plan as to how to operate a grid with it being 100% green. Just because the summers and winters are a few degrees warmer doesn't create a justification in of itself.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Retirement of most of coal, oil and nukes is actually being caused by age and cheap natural gas fuel and renewable energy production that is producing electricity cheaper than coal and nuclear plants as we speak and nearly as cheap as gas turbines themselves, and in fact cheaper than gas turbines in a lot of places. Its 99% economics of having no more fuel costs of any kind. Wind and sun are free... well so far. Of course coal, nukes and eventually natgas will all be gone. They can't compete any longer with the zero fuel cost machines.

Even the oil field treating plants and gas pipelines are changing to solar and wind powered compressor stations. They're sitting right on top of all the fuel they could need. Some of the gas pipelines have a billion cubic feet of the stuff running past their noses every day. All they have to do is put a tap on the line, burn it at the compressors and bill the client as "lost and unaccounted for gas" while transporting his gas along the pipeline. Nope, solar is cheaper than burning that gas.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44,

Then you are for an economic transition that will span out over the next 50 years. This is different than the transition in Europe. If you go by EIA's estimate, solar will only rich parity with natural gas generation in 2045 and that is ignoring the need for base loading generation. The transition will be very gradual. I don't know why you are calling me a denier and such when I am a proponent for an economically driven transition and often what is being proposed is drastic and ignores all the economics.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I didn't follow the nuanced back and forth positions, but I liked the Internet Explorer graphic as an illustration of correlation vs causation.

I just wanted to post something vaguely related to the TX power market.

Tesla Is Plugging a Secret Mega-Battery Into the Texas Grid
... in Angleton TX, ten miles from my home.

I'm sure they're starting small but I think that will tend to help smooth out the daily mismatches between supply/demand that tend to drive daily price cycles.
I'm not sure whether that favors wind/solar or baseload units. My first thought is that it would tend to help both.
I know one of the complaints we hear as a baseload unit is we have to keep generating even when we are losing money when the price turns negative in the wee hours of the morning.


=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It seems the EIA is still using old natural gas prices and not deducting state and local sales taxes. Took me awhile to figure that out. When oil starts to get scarce again, it won't take till 2045. Solar rooftop systems in TX last month were certainly shouting from the rooftops that the EIA got that prediction totally backasswards. Natgas doesn't flow for 1 day and bang! If the oil price goes up, natgas, palm and olive oil all tend to rise somewhat. I think EIA did not consider fuel costs rising, working only with their usual assumptions about mechanical fabrication costs of renewables decreasing slowly and inversely as that tech gets more widespread and competition builds. All those coal and nuk plants were offline because their running costs are higher than natgas units, never mind solar and wind. Nobody has wanted to buy Austin's 16% share of the South TX Nuke since they offered it for sale in 2006. Huge dual fired gen plant in Boston that hasn't run for like 5yrs and the owners want Bostonians to keep paying them for "its standby value". I dont think those are isolated incidents. San Francisco is trying to install huge batteries and shut down gas burners. Its clean .. and cheap now. Tesla I'm told doesn't make their money on their cars. I think its their battery tech thats valuable. Nobody else making just cars has a PE of 1000 earnings. Yeah, electricpete's got it right there. I didnt see that. I'll click now.

Why are you telling me that 21 cities with record lows is normal and snowing in in TX while its mild in MN apparently is totally normal? Can you blame me for thinking that you don't believe? But sorry for my confusion.

Used to fish the canals behind Sargent Beach. Pulled in a 6ft aligator gar at 4am one moonless morning. Just barely some light from the Dow plant tank farm. Didn't know what it was until I got it right up under me and I turned on the lantern. Man! Nose to nose with all those ragged teeth scared the hell out of me! Almost fell in with him. Had to rope him to the pickup to lift him out of the canal.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Mr 1503-44 I take a different view of your Gulf Coast oil platform design case criteria increase. It could be that Hurricane Katrina events are rare and simply had not been observed so that they could be entered into the criteria.

An example from the east coast is

Quote:

During a hurricane in 1749, the Chesapeake Bay rose 15 feet (4.6 m) above normal,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willoughby_Spit. That is too small a sample, and the event data too incomplete, to guess what sort of return frequency a storm that strong has.

I do like your comparison at the bottom of the post. It is an absolute fact that correlation does not by itself prove causation.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Although one could argue that as the use of Internet Explorer dropped, the outrage directed toward it dropped as the user population dwindled, which resulted in less people going into a psychotic rage, which then led to the lowered homicide rates winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Electricpete,

Batteries I don't believe gotten cheap enough to be used for arbitrage. I talked with someone ,who used to work for Enchanted Rock in financing back in 2019 here in Houston, as to what kind of power swings do you need to be able to use batteries for arbitrage and he said about $100 per MHW. Swings like that happen but not with strong regularity. The real use I have seen in Texas for batteries has been in turning units into blackstart units and for mitigating a transmission contingency without building a transmission line.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

How much work is it to winterise the gas wells and other must have sites? I presume they don't need to do all of it if they have a proper plan for for next time to have rolling blackouts.

I can't see them getting much of the cash generated by peak price anyway. It seems that a sizable proportion of the customer retailers are going bust so won't pay anyway. The largest and most financially robust co-operative filed for chapter 11 last week. And if it can't sink the 3 days of peak charge then the others won't be able to anyway. So quiet who will cough up the cash to the suppliers is anyone's guess.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There are some hidden problems that do not appear to be addressed aequately, which implies that there is a risk a serious interruption in supply may occur in the medium term.

The first issue is that every single large US central station ( fossil fired) has had its boiler/ steam generator built according to ASME section I, which has no defined provisions for fatigue damage of pressure parts. These large plants were assumed to startup once per year, and shutdown only for annual inspection, but now are required to startup once per day,incurring about 365 times more fatigue damage than originally assumed.Fatigue failure of a major pressure part can imply an extended outage for replacement, lowering the reserve margins.

The second issue is that the buildup of new wind farms in the central states of the US will require several large UHVDC transmission lines to transmit the power to the coastal cities, and these DC lines are vulnerable to disruption due to solar CME coronal mass ejections, as occured with the canadian DC transmmission lines from newfoundland hydropower that led to a nationwide blackout in march 1989.

The third issue is that relying primarily to gas fired peaking and cycling power plants in the eastern half of the US is raising the stakes for the consequences of a failure in the natural gas supply system, such as the 2015 aliso canyon faiure in california that led to months of forced outages for the area's gas fired power plants. In particular , the northeast is highly dependent on the gas reservoir in pennsylvania, and a similar failure in the winter would be catastrophic to residents on the east coast.

The fourth issue is that the mechanical reliability of wind farms is not all it was cracked up to be, with failures of the bearings and gear reducers leading to faster retirement of wind turbines than originally assumed in the financial calculations for rate of return. Apparently the 20 yr MTBF spec'ed for each part implies an overall MTBF of about 8 yrs for the composite mechanism considering the many parts that can individually contribute to failure of the turbine. Online monitoring of vibration and temperatures may improve the overall relaibility, but there will also need to be a large increase in the maintainence staff to address field repairs.



"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I don't think that chapter 11 bankruptcy will save the consumers.
Chapter 11 allows the companies to continue to operate and collect receivables from the customers over time.
Even if some utilities are sold, the debts receivable will be part of the assets passed to the new owners.
Chapter 11 may also be a legal maneuver to avoid statutes of limitations on the filing of liens that may otherwise wipe out some debt.
And the rich got richer.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Most of the ones that have gone chapter 11 are fixed rate supplier's so the consumers won't get hit.



RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

FacEngr, and all

Determining Rational Design Criteria


Granted that large hurricanes have occurred in the past and these latest ones may not have been the worst, but there are two other things you must also watch out for too. Are there changes to frequency and are there trending tendencies? Are the averages, or better "moving averages" of either of those changing over your time history? Both could indicate that some causation factor is at work, maybe not. For example, a rising moving average wave height, a max wave height, max wind speeds, or max flood stage river levels can cause us trouble. Changes in either may affect our design conditions. A rising moving average of max wave height would suggest that we think about increasing the design criteria of the minimum height between the lower deck and the highest mean sea level. An increasing frequency of high wave data suggests that our present 100yr and 1000yr design wave heights might be too small.

Say we have offshore platform with following design criteria,
Wave Criteria #1, Any offshore platform should be built such that the lower deck remains above a wave height with a return period of 100yrs or less and not experience any significant damage.
#2 is that a platform should survive a wave height with a return period of 1000yrs or less. If the frequency of either the presently defined 100 or 1000 year wave heights are observed to be increasing, the probability of their occurrence is increasing, meaning that the return periods of those wave heights are decreasing. 100yr waves might now have 86yr return periods. 1000yr waves may have 737yr return periods. Decreasing return periods of existing criteria implies that the criteria's present values are too low and they must be revised upwards to reflect new wave heights that will have the same expected frequencies of 100 and 1000yrs.

How do we rationally decide to revise our design criteria, or not? We get out our old wave data and look at all the waves ever recorded. We calculate the probabilities of each wave height in our old storm data and plot those against wave height. We calculate the expected return periods for all the waves in our old data and plot return periods against wave heights.

Now we do the same thing, but this time we include the new data recorded over, say the last 10 years that include some very large storms that we had never seen before. We plot the new curves and see that all our old wave height values now have a higher probability of occurring. We also see that the same return periods now show they have greater wave heights.

Yes, perhaps there were even bigger storms in the past that we were not aware of, but as the saying goes, "what you don't know can't hurt you" and that was fine until now, but now we do have an indication that some really big waves might have occurred in the past and we simply failed for some reason to have gotten them recorded into our old data base. We still do not know if they actually occurred, but everything points to their probable existence in the past. Logic follows that, if they probably existed in past storms, they probably exist today and we should think about including those waves in a revised design criteria based on all the new data and whatever foreseeable implications that may have on our designs. If we don't, some good lawyer with a consulting PhD in statistics at his side will surely beat us to pieces, if it turns out that some foreseeable event capsizes our platform. So we ask ourselves how much risk do we want to avert and set our design criteria accordingly, or API RP 2A adopts it as and we build the next platform according to that new recommended practice.

The additional problem that trends in the data can present to us is the possibility that there is causation of some kind taking place, or not. If we think there might be a cause, we might be able to foresee that and add some additional criteria to account for trends in our design, or we can just accept some risk doing nothing while realising that those trends might continue and quickly surpass even our new criteria. How much risk will we accept? We could also account for any trending in the latest data by working with moving averages of our data that would reduce any effects of old data while strengthening any affects of newer data. Including simply discarding the first 50yrs of 100yrs of data, if we thought that including all data would unduely bias our design to the low side and result in undersigning our work in the face of conditions we view as more prevalent in today's environment.

All of those questions raised in the above are answered, not by believing in climate change, or not, what causes it, or doesn't, it just boils down to the day to day practicality of quantify risk as best you can and finding out how much risk your CEO is willing to take, or not. At home, I can take whatever risk I think is appropriate for me.

I included the IExplorer vs Murders graph to make it obvious that you must be aware of what your data is, or is not going to tell you. I'm happy that the humor was appreciated.

Apologies to all those I bored writing stuff below pay grade.

I have a spreadsheet showing an example of how a typical design wave height criteria is made and revised according to the method I outlined above, should anyone be interested in the math.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fisch, others
Definitely. One does have to believe that batteries will come, or if not, something else will. Pumped storage, H2. We just need to build some experimental works, hopefully sooner than later. Roll up our sleeves.... I hear that a large scale H2 system is being tested in England.

davefitz, all true to my limited knowledge. Nothing is all roses here, including the current impossible state of affairs. Checkmate in all directions and getting worse daily.

waross, true as ever, if not more so.

Alistair, we keep our fingers crossed that part works out. I'd recommend that they consider buying solar rooftops and their own batteries, if they still have any money left.

Gas wells vulnerable to water or gas hydrate freezing need one or both of these heaters, or methanol injection packages. The pipes connecting wells to gathering pipelines pass through a flow meter before reaching heating or injecting equipment, so if the temperature of the gas exiting the wells is not high, the pipe and meters will need insulation. Usually exit temp is high enough to make it to a heater, but not always, so meth injection may be first. Of course the injection pumps need a local electric source when city lights are out. Fuel cell gas to electric converters could work, but I have not done it that way. The equipment needs to be operating before plugs form, or you won't likely get up operating again until air temp rise. If gas is hot enough to get into underground pipelines, they might continue to flow as ground in South TX usually does not freeze and might remain warm, but you need to know ...
Lots of small gas wells, esp South of Austin, would not normally support the additional equipment and run costs, so they do not have that on site. Ever large flow wells might not. A lot of wells are owned by small time operators and they only worry about nothing until the bank calls.

https://www.exterran.com/Products/production-equip...
https://www.lewa.com/en/applications/methanol-inje...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

Why are you telling me that 21 cities with record lows is normal and snowing in in TX while its mild in MN apparently is totally normal? Can you blame me for thinking that you don't believe? But sorry for my confusion.


I get really sick of hearing this type of "lowest recorded temperature so it must be climate change" argument. I'd bet any day that those areas had lower lows then the recorded values before modern day temperature recording started. ~130 years of recorded data certainly doesn't prove what could happen and is far from enough data to actually know what 100 year weather events will be with any certainty. Yet, any bad weather event is called climate change. You can go ahead and call me a denier too now.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Well by all accounts they are looking like it is going to be a bumper market for solar installations this summer in Texas along with islanding and generator backup.

To the tune of whole numbers of % drop in residential demand.

Which of course will have knock on consequences for paying for the upgrades which are being considered.

But I am sure they will pass some new law to make it harder for people to escape.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think there is something that we are missing.

Wind farms, solar panels, and batteries are short term assets, and are we to expect them to replace long term assets like coal and gas plants?

So what will we be changing to next? What of all those old short term assets? What will they look like in 25 years?

And if solar and wind are so cheap, why do we need tax breaks?

I also doubt oil, coal and gas will go away completely. They may be reduced in importance. After all lube oil, and plastics demand are not dropping very much.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

My argument was not about temperature so much as it was about TX being cold when MN was "mild", not to mention that was reversed within the week.

Its not the lowest lows or the highest highs that are important in the climate change argument anyway. 30 million years ago the temp everywhere could have been much hotter, for all I know, or 250,000 years ago much colder over some ice sheet. The highest highs or lowest lows ever present, known or unknown to us today are a problem but not the big problem. Plenty of plants and animals managed to live and prosper. The biggest problem is the rate of temperature change. Many species cannot adapt to rapid changes to temperature and the current predictions suggest the rate of temperature change will be more and more rapid. Even if I heat my volcanic stone briquetts too fast in my BBQ, even they explode. If I heat them slower, no rock bits get embedded in my burger. 50 yrs ago there were glaciers on the mountains that have been there since recorded history began, yet during the last 20yrs many have almost disappeared and the surrounding vegetation has changed. The old mosses are gone or retreated with the ice and different ones now take their place. Thats temperature change effect. I hope the new species turn out to be more advantageous for the world, cause if they're not, we may be in for a bad ride.
Not important how any one of us believe. Belief is just someone's perception of things they see and have experienced. Mine will be different than everyone else's to a large degree, just as yours might be too.
It isn't really important what anyone believes. The environmental changes from epoch to epoch are know through many diverse areas of research, from the thickness of tree rings, even petrified trees, and frozen bubbles of air and chemicals falling from the atmosphere a million years ago are there in the soil and ice cores contained in Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets and types of plants contained in many soil corings, onshore and off. Evidence of change is all around us, but you need to know where to look and you have to look for it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Cranky,

Quote:


And if solar and wind are so cheap, why do we need tax breaks?

BECAUSE WE THINK WE NEED MORE CLEAN. Do you really want more smokestack?
Their fuel costs NOTHING. If you got money to pay for dirtier fuel. Buy a gasoline gen and run it 24/7.
If there is tax for you, there's road tax in that gasoline, it doesn't bother me if you have to pay. Your dirtying up my air. Smokers pay high tax for burning tobacco. Seems fair.


RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

and for the good news...

"Texas officials said they do not plan to reverse an estimated $16 billion in electricity overcharges incurred during a deep freeze that roiled the state's power grids and left millions without power last month. "

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Most gas generators sold at local stores would not last three months. I'm not fool.

My point is that I believe there is a problem ahead that we were not expecting.

That may not be true for thermal solar units, but most of what is being built now is silicon based.

Nucular may be a better option, than solar.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There's always problems ahead, any way you look. That's why there are engineers. All the new grads will have work. They might even solve some. Take nukes for example. We once thought there would be nukes everywhere by now.

If the US started building nukes now to cover all expected demand for the next 100 years, they would always be well behind the required capacity. They just take too long to plan and build. They can't keep up with demand. Not that anyone would seriously propose that in the USA at this time.

Why not buy yourself an industrial gen package and try to sell Japan, Ukraine and Germany on those nukes. It'll at least be good sales practice for the US, when or if ...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)

Quote (cranky108)


And if solar and wind are so cheap, why do we need tax breaks?

And I'm sure that back in 1916 people were asking the same thing about the 'oil depletion allowance', which is still in place today and which continues to allow American oil companies to reap millions of dollars in tax credits every year.

And an interesting bit of trivia, despite the name 'oil depletion allowance', which is the official term for this particular tax break, it applies to more than just oil. In fact, for virtually ALL extraction industries, including mining, foresting, etc, there is a depletion allowance, running from as low as 5% for sand, gravel, and shale, to as high as 22% for sulfur and uranium, but gas and oil are still the big winners at 23%.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fair enough, why spew that crap about a cold snap was climate change then? I didn't yet point out that in the dam thread you posted rather vehement arguments against dams then mentioned pumped storage as an energy storage possibility here. For me, I start skipping over what you write when write nonsense like this. Starts to smell like baiting and arguing only for the sake of arguing.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

dik, all the golden boys have already called their Farrari dealers. No going back now. If FERC, TX Att Gen or SEC don't move on it soon, the gov and PUC officers will have to be recalled before that will happen. As it is, they obviously don't give a damn.

The old gas company I used to work for down in Laredo was named TransTexas Gas, but it was known locally as "Transylvanian Gas". Why? Because it sucked gas, oil and blood out of the rocks and everyone that got close enough. I used to say that if they paid us once a month, we'd all have enough cash to buy a full tank of gas and get the hell away. You had to have a full tank to put Laredo in the rear view mirror. Otherwise they'd just find us on the shoulder and tow us back in.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Lionel,

Thanks for your honest comment.

My intentions are to try to recognise and make use of the good advantages in all things and to try to recognize and solve the bad points of all things. I see every (engineering) problem as finding optimum solutions, so everything for me is always a trade off. To do that you have to be as objective as possible. If a thread is going down one path, I will often point out negative consequences of that path and advantages to an alternate path. Likewise the converse. I think that is what objectivity is all about. Seeking an optimum balanced solution might even require me to change my perspective in the same thread. I dont usually, but sometimes I might need to. I know I will never find optimum solutions unless I can recognise all the the good and all the bad consequences of my decisions. Is that not so? Sometimes maybe that seems like trolling, but I think it more as opening up an opportunity for further discussion and my trying to understand if there is simply someone's loosly formulated opinion, or solid logic behind the points in question. I always try to explain the reasons behind whatever I am discussing at the time, or will if questioned about it, so others can find fault or inconsistencies and I can correct my logic, if I think I need to. Will that be a problem? Nobody else has objected so far. I appreciate anyone's reading of what I write. That often takes a lot of my time and I hope I am not wasting that, or the time others take to read it, but that is their decision and maybe you do want to skip it. Up to you. At least I try to answer all serious questions with serious answers to my best ability, but I admit that I might throw a barb or two at flippant responses and those I think do not appear to be serious, or do not further a more complete understanding of the questions at hand. Not so unlike many others here. Sorry if you don't see it so.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Lionel

Pumped storage storage is the most cost effective means of storing energy and it scales well. Look up Raccoon Mountain for a pumped storage facility here in the states that has been running since the Carter administration. Round trip efficiency for pumped storage can be 85%+ which kind of blew my mind. Raccoon Mountain is used like a daily peaker unit. Uses electricity at night to pump and it generates during the day. The only thing that is hard about pumped storage is that it is geographically specific.

There is a TED talk on pumped storage on steroids about lifting rock instead of water. What they do is find an area with a large rock formation and cut a big deep circle and lift this column up and down with hydraulics. The numbers get better the larger the column because the ring increases only linearly with its radius but the column volume increases by its square. No one has bit on it as far as I know.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

John Baker, people are still asking that same question, the one about depletion allowances. With some justification if I may add. IMO a complete rewrite of the US tax code is long overdue. How many pages is it now?

Fisch,
there is another version of that gravity storage scheme where a crane stacks massive concrete blocks higher and higher to store solar power. I doubted that it would work next to a wind farm, for obvious reasons smile, but I find no other busts in their logic. No water, no head available, why not?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503,

I am not familiar with your example. Renewables want to offer firm service which they can get a higher premium for. Some wind farms had developers proposing putting big propane tanks on site to provide power when needed to meet the requirements of firm service. I am not familiar with the money numbers but it must be significant enough to bother with dumb stuff.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There is a large co2 loss associated with using crude oil as the source for the energy to upgrade and refine petroleum products.
It's cheap.
If we are willing to pay to reduce our carbon discharges, there is about a 40% reduction available by using alternate energy rather than crude oil to drive the upgrading and refining processes.
If only one producer did this he would be at a financial disadvantage.
If all producers did this then no one producer would have a great advantage over the others.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yes dumb ideas can be the order of the day at times. I was once on an Indian reservation somewhere outside Moapa, NV, trying to talk the chief into building a giant tomato greenhouse to use the heat from a large HRSG, all because Enron wanted to build a cogen there. That was one of the better ideas. Another involved reversing 40 miles of gas pipeline that was actually going to carry 60% natgas and 40% N2 to another new cogen and food processing plant somewhere in SE Colorado. Fortunately neither made it make off the proposal board. The gas wells there produce a lot of N2 for some reason. But then again, some farther to the south produce a lot of He2.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If solar ever gets to really going strong, power might become more expensive at night.
I need a break.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fischstabchen, I know what pumped storage is. You obviously missed the point of what I posted.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If nobody else, I appreciated hearing about the gravity storage rock. Definitely thinking outside the box and it just might come in handy. That's exactly the kind of thinking we need, even if it never actually flies.

BTW, I forgot that the UAE just got their reactor going. Not that they need it yet, but they will be ready if they do. Always best not to get behind the 8 ball.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Pulling rail cars up a hill is another energy storage idea. https://aresnorthamerica.com/ I doubt it will scale to the size range covered by pumped hydro.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Anywhere you can store potential. Any truth to the Swiss giant clockspring? smile

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yet many times I have seen loaded coal trains traversing town using full dynamic brakes, after climbing a 7200 foot hill to a level a little less than 6000 feet.
The problem is the towns in the middle.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

These two paragraphs I thought were interesting.
"
\The city's $54 million net revenue estimate was included in a voluntary notice filed Monday with the Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board. The disclosure did provide for a considerable deviation from that estimate, however, suggesting the final revenue total could reach as high as $104 million but also drop all the way to negative $16 million depending on market developments.

"There is already movement to begin repricing some aspects of the market, and ERCOT has begun significantly short-paying invoices owned to Austin Energy because of cash-flow issues caused by payment defaults by other parties in their payments owed to ERCOT," the report read."

Imagine selling something like cotton or corn onto the market and then Chicago coming back and telling you they could give only this much money or even worse, tell you you owe them money.

This is in addition to early on when the Governor locked in prices to $9,000 per MWH and declared transaction already settled to be settled at $9,000 even though the market never settled at that price point. I would be pretty mad if I was Brazos , the utility that declared bankruptcy, or a wholesaler and had to pay post-settlement adjust markups.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Sounds like a totally F'ed up system... time to change and join the 21 century.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

dik,

It is a 21st century system that relies on the market to fix any issues. The cap was $3,000 and then 5,000, and $6,000 and so on. It kept being raised to no one wanting to build peaker generation with such a low return. In other regions, like CAISO, facilities are paid simply for being capacity. You usually are comfortable with a capacity margin around 9% and California is flying by 13%+. There are plants being built there which may not or just barely run. The cap was put in place because of market power manipulation by Enron and it was being relaxed to try to incentivise Independent Power Producers to build plants. I am not defending the system but that is the system here in ERCOT. The garbage with prices being changed and such is just fallout of the market failing due to systemic problems with the natural gas system. Without systematic failure, the prices would never have stayed as high as they were for an extended amounts of time.

Edit: I should have included that the market was being set by the PUC.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Life threatening issues should not rely on the market...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

Imagine selling something like cotton or corn onto the market and then Chicago coming back and telling you they could give only this much money or even worse, tell you you owe them money.
Canadian Wheat board,
The Fruit Growers Association in BC.
I think that there is precedent.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Both Chicago Mercantile and NYSE have several levels of price change circuit breakers set each day.
The largest is 20% price cap for the day.
Nowhere near ERCOT's 10,000% price change.
Why are these guys not in prison yet?
Raising prices during declared emergencies is plainly illegal.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44,

It isn't illegal. The PUC abandoned the market and just flat set prices at the max to spur every generator to come online. All without thinking of the groups that buy power. Prices on the first day were around $1,200 per MWH. The PUC felt that if there was load shed happening that market forces weren't incentivising generation to come online even though $1,200 is around 40 times the normal market rate. They then set the price to the max due to the belief it should be maxed out if there is shed load.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/texas-power-regulator...

Order to set past and present prices to max by the PUC to ERCOT.

https://www.puc.texas.gov/51617WinterERCOTOrder.pd...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think the legal questions are not fully resolved. There are no courts decisions yet.
I know of PUC's actions. If they knew anything about their market, they would have realised their decisions were in error.

The market did not fail because of gas supply problems. There is no way that a 300% rise in gas prices should result in 10,000% increase in electricity.
The market did not fail because of electrical supply problems. That resulted in grid blackouts, as designed.
The market failed because supply of electricity could not be made to meet demand AT ANY PRICE.
When supply and demand cannot be balanced by price, any market is effectively destroyed. This one went ballistic, totally out of control. PUC fueled the boosters.
The market failed from lack of appropriate controls, most certainly while under declared emergency.
The price of Bitcoin always balances supply with demand, because supply and demand can always balance the price of Bitcoin. But this ain't bitcoin. The problem is that PUC thought it was.
That's it, plain and simple...IMO.

Aside from gas fields freezing, some downed power lines and some generators that need winterizing, this has little to with any kind of engineering failure, as everything seems to have operated as designed. The only engineering failure as such, might be insufficient design envelopes, yet some argue that they are sufficient, since extending them are too expensive to be practical and cost effective. So far its mostly a mission failure only.

Does anyone doubt these simple market principles? I think it is pretty much Economics 101, but I'd like to hear any contrary opinions.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I have tried to figure out how ERCOTS rules are configured but it is hard to get a clear picture.
Some seems to be the same as the ones we use her.

But this difference in cost for power during the blackout between the market and the costumers can be because the power providers that could not deliver have to pay ERCOT for power bought on the market for them.
But if the power provider has costumers with fixed prices then they can't charge them with this extra high power prices.
The only one they can charge to get the money back is the ones that don't have a fixed price.

But here it is different, when I pay spot price I pay the markets spot price not some made up spot price that the power providers coms up with.
And in our system there is never a good idea for power providers not to deliver what he has sold to the grid (consumers) because the only thing that will happen is that he is in debt to "ERCOT" with the same amount of power and have to deliver it later without extra cost, its just plus or minus on the balancing sheet.
If "ERCOT" have to buy from someone else to fix the problem then the bill goes to the PP with extra cost, for fixing it, but this is not market spot price and can't be sent down the line to the consumer.

Here using the pre bought power reserv never influences the market price either since it is bought and payed for after market closing.

So I am not shore what is lacking here or where there is a glitch in the system, something is missing.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Maybe you are not sure, because there was no electrical problem, The grid remained balanced, because demand was restricted by enforced blackouts. Setting a higher price did not bring on more gen capacity, like it was theoretically supposed to do. We know that because blackouts persisted at extreme price. The grid was only saved by enforced blackouts, not by high prices or more electricity being brought online.

So what was the benefit of the high prices, other than lining pockets of those that were already injecting into the grid? No more generators showed up at that party.

How would the Swedish electricity market respond when enough power cannot be provided to meet demand? <assuming interconnections at borders are closed off, I.e. supply is finite, demand is effectively infinite.>

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

So I am not sure what is lacking here or where there is a glitch in the system, something is missing.
This is Texas.
Fiercely independent.
Fiercely de regulated/self regulated.
Fiercely free enterprise.
And the rich get richer.
De regulation of a public utility is always`s preceded by an expensive public relations campaign tio convince consumers that de regulation will save them money.
Then the rates go up.
And the rich get richer.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The European grid is not immune to upsets that could create edge cases for the market.

Quote (orf.at)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_European_blacko...

How the European power markets would respond to an extended period of supply constraint that required shedding load has never been (and hopefully never will be) tested. In the above events the utility response was appropriate and the resulting outage period was in one case limited to a few localities, in the other the outage was widespread, but fairly short.

There are other examples - it seems when the lesson is painful enough it gets remembered. It is as true in Europe as it is in the US.

Fred

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Waross,

Most of the people in the U.S. live in deregulated regions. People here want to make it about being deregulated when it is the most common arrangement and it isn't a Texas thing.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (1503-44)

The market failed because supply of electricity could not be made to meet demand AT ANY PRICE.
Exactly. The system was broken in many ways. Ultimately this is as much a failure of the regulation.

When the bulk of power users pay a fixed rate for their power consumption, intra day changes only affect producers and the few users that do pay a sliding rate. Having caps at a more reasonable level would be more equitable. Big consumers like industry 'should' be incentivized to be on variable rate. This might already be the case in Texas, I don't know...

In my state the main coal power plant has recently announced that it is shutting down earlier than expected (still 7 years away). The main reason is that power prices have crashed due to wind and solar. Dealing with dispersed and variable renewable electricity generation is a challenge many countries are and increasingly will be facing. It is an engineering, economic and regulatory challenge. Texas is how not to do it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Human909,

You do realize there were rolling blackouts in Oklahoma and Louisiana for the same reasons as in Texas.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Market doesn't really work when after something like this most of your customers don't exist anymore and you are extremely unlikely to realise any of the peak money that you are entitled to.

It seems that ERCOTS can just shrug its shoulders and say they didn't pay us so we are not going to pay you.

Must admit I can see the reason why a substantial number of domestic Texans are going off grid. If your norm is power cuts which last longer than 3 hours and days of no power you have to do something. So the residential market will have shrunk again. They don't actually see much benefit residentially for Texas cheap energy its 8% less than average compared to the rest of the USA. Unlike the commercial users where its 35% cheaper. Which stinks to me that the little people are getting screwed anyway.

One person in the solar groups has been told because there are only 4 houses left on the radial that they won't be fixed for nearly 3 weeks. The other 20 or so are all now off grid with power. But they have been told it will be 5 months before the paper work will be approved if they installed solar tomorrow. And it will be a staggering 35k USD for a 10 kW system with crappy microinverters and no battery.

Even in ex soviet countries we do get power cuts mainly due to things failing but just checked we haven't had longer than 9 hours in 5 years.

BTW I think central Europe there will be a major crash in the not so distant future as well. Which will cause major political issues because certain countries will cut all the inter connects and look after themselves unless it originates in their back yard. This is a western world issue not just USA or Texas.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Allstair,

I don't know what you expect to get for 35k. Batteries are extremely expensive as backup power. A 90kwh bank will cost you 15-20k. You could buy a small generator for 1/30 the cost of a battery bank.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

My 8.5 kW inverter plus 9.61 kWp of panels cost 13k USD including all the paperwork and installation and was turned on when they left the site.

My second inverter which will going in this year 8.5 kW and 40 panels 12.8 kWp is going to cost 7k USD but its going to be a DIY installation.

My battery is in the same range of price but its LiFe4Po good for 25 years and 95% discharge instead of the wet cell banks of requiring only 50% discharge and replace the cells every 5 years.

Anyway the 35k was without battery it was 10 kWp of panels with enphase IRQ7+ and monitoring system plus roof racking and rapid shut down.

There is an organised lobbied set of regulations to make solar as expensive as possible to the small people. There is money to be made but very little of it is allowed to be made by the end user.

And they are rolling out regs so that your house will be condemned for unfit for human habitation if you go off grid. But the work round for that is have the fridge connected to the grid and run everything else off grid. But then they apply minimum billing and increase the connection fee. So you end up paying 1200 USD a year anyway to run just a fridge.

I might add the hardware I use is pretty much the same price as in the USA. Its the installation cost and approval which nearly triples the price.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (1503-44)

How would the Swedish electricity market respond when enough power cannot be provided to meet demand? <assuming interconnections at borders are closed off, I.e. supply is finite, demand is effectively infinite.>

I am not shore if this answers your question.. ponder

Svenska kraftnät provides a fixed remuneration for the resources in accordance with the agreement entered into.
Upon activation, variable compensation is paid.
The costs for power reserves are paid through an additional fee on the consumption of companies responsible for the balance, excluding network losses in networks subject to concession.

The additional fee is charged weekdays between 06 - 22 during the period 16 November - 15 March.
The additional fee is charged to finance Svenska kraftnät's procurement and management of the power reserve.

How does it work when the power reserve is activated in the regulating power market?
To avoid power shortages in the electrical system, the power reserve can be activated for the power balance.
Activation and deactivation of bids takes place by Svenska kraftnät calling the contact specified by the plant owner.
It can be, for example, a balance manager or an operations center.

The offer can be activated and deactivated by Svenska kraftnät during the entire delivery hour.
The management is based on the guidelines that the Nordic system operators transmission network companies have jointly developed:
"Guidelines for implementation of transitional peak load arrangements"
https://eepublicdownloads.azureedge.net/clean-docu...

The power reserve is called up only after all commercial bids have been accepted.
Power reserve and the day before market
The power reserve is put into Nord Pool by Svenska kraftnät and it is only called off if there is a risk of shortening.

Today, only Fingrid in Finland and Svenska kraftnät in Sweden procure power reserves for cold winters in the Nordic countries.

How is the production part of the power reserve priced on the day before the market?
When activating the power reserve at Nord Pool, the power reserve price is set at the ceiling price at Nord Pool, which is 3000 Euro / MWh.

Best Regard A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Its not actually that much different apart from the amount of the power cap being half as much.

The only country in Europe that I know that has a system setup for selective load shedding down to system at consumer level is Germany which is why I can see something similar happening in central Europe.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I am not shore if we are taking about the same thing here. ponder

Quote (Alistair)

System setup for selective load shedding down to system at consumer level.

The so-called power reserve is created by entering into agreements with players in the electricity market.

On the one hand, we can enter into agreements with electricity producers who have reserve power plants.
Then the agreement is about the electricity producer to contribute with additional electricity production.

On the one hand, we can enter into agreements with large electricity users and electricity trading companies, but then it is instead a matter of them reducing their electricity consumption.

The power reserve must be available between 16 November and 15 March, ie during the coldest season.


If above fails the same way as in Texas, there is a system for rolling blackouts (shedding) too.
It have never happened yet.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The system they have in Germany is that they can directly shed power from consumer systems selectively. I think they can also power stuff up as well. There are pots scrap iron in arc smelters on standby to soak up power if required. They cycle the production pots to keep everything hot soaked so no cracking. But as one comes empty its loaded up on standby and then left while another one goes prime production. Sites can loose high power systems but the rest of it can stay on. If there is things that would break then they go to reduced power mode or stay on. Building thermostats get reduced or air con turned off.

Robot production lines finish the job up to a point then stop etc.

They can also trigger hospital/airport backup generators so they are ready if a cut does occur. It generates a bigger window to get things fired up producing power and can quickly get rid of load in seconds if required.

They got absolutely hammered a couple of times with frequency drop when all inverters went off line at 49.8 HZ so they put through that retrospective change that they had to continue producing down to 49.3hz and all the ripple recovery stuff kicks in at 49.5hz or something like that. I think they still go off line at 50.2 though.

It was years ago it was explained to me and I only really understood it when I put my own solar in and was looking at the ripple receiver functions for my inverter.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

In addition to all the above, it is feasible to develop and implement smarter meters and load centers that will runback demand of individual households based on real time economic inputs from the ISO, and in extreme events,runback demand during supply disruptions. Prioritizing household demands such that high priority, low demand loads never suffer a "blackout" such as overhead lights, alarms , and furnace fans. Lowest priorites are assigned to high load items such as dryers, ovens, EV rechargers, etc. Finally, the EV batteries can be used to power the high priority loads in the event of a blackout.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think the KNX system does all that stuff already dave for industry and its slowly going into new apartment blocks but no requirement for houses.

To add all the solar inverters have reactive power control as well and they can tell them to go to 0.8 lagging through to 0.8 leading again all from the central control room. They can also trigger them to release the battery to supply the grid at max discharge which is completely illegal and impossible to do without the control room releasing it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

We do a lot of saving power stuff at the factory.
I reprogramed the cooling pumps so they stop when the cooling isn't needed and starts when it is necessary.
But this has nothing to do with the power grid.
We just do not want to pay for power if we do not have to smile

I think one difference is that here
According to the Electricity Act, an electricity supplier is obliged to deliver as much electricity as its customers consume.

And all power companies have a very good picture of how every costumers power consumption looks.
I can go back years and see the difference buy month, I guess the power company actually can se it by the hour.

Since we have much hydro power, that is what is used to balance the wind power and the solar energi and the high peaks.
It is mostly the hydro companies that build new wind power stations and offers solar cell solutions.
They have the means to balance it and uphold the Electricity Act.
For a company that only have wind power production this can be difficult, what they could do is have less costumers and sell the extra on the market, or make deals with another power provider that can garanti the balancing when needed.

If an effect shutdown (rolling blackouts) should be necessary.
This is decided locally in each region together with the transmission company how to proceed with premade planes.
The hospital and the district heating plant will probably be excluded.
The first thing that comes of line is the industries, if they are dissatisfied not our problem, they can get their own backup power if necessary.
15 minutes heads up an then we cut the power.
Households are switched on and off at intervals based on how long the indoor temperature can be kept above 0 degrees.
Let say 3 hours without power then another area becomes without electricity for 3 hours while the first area gets the power back and so on until the problem is resolved.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Wind energy and solar providers here don't need to worry about balancing the grid. And that is part of the problem. They are provided tax breaks for installing a non-stable resource, and a place to sell it, with no need to balance that resource. On the other hand, ERCOT is required to balance that without the ability to make requirements, only cost for what they will pay. The assumption is the grid market is perfect and the price will make an incentive to bring more conventional generation when required.

The other side is the energy provider is only out to make money, so will do the least to get the best cost for the energy. Thus, freeze proofing is a cost that no one thought was needed.

On the third, the gas supply was assumed to be available for gas generation, and no fuel storage would be required. Just in time delivery works most of the time, and no inventory lowers the cost of fuel.

Although we have seen many times where just in time delivery, in other industries, has caused problems when deliveries can't be made on time, we continue to go that route in the electric industry, with depending on gas to always be there.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

De-regulation campaigns always promise better service and lower prices for consumers.
And the checks is the mail.
And the rich get richer.

There is more than one way that a free market may function.
Prices may be bid and set ahead of time.
Base loads producers may be required to operate at 80% capacity.
That would guarantee spinning reserves.
When the grid demanded that lest 20% the price would be greater but not unreasonable.
That is, a system based on the interests of of the consumers, not the profits of the producers.
What happens when a producer is unable to supply the contracted power?
Penalties; Not enough to bankrupt but enough to make winterization cost effective.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Not much chicken makes it to the dinner table when the fox is running the henhouse.
When will we ever learn? When will we ...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Waross,

You are grossly over simplifying things with your statements that deregulation is bad. There are a lot of expensive to run generators that only exist in regulated regions. A deregulated market shifts the risk associated with changing fuel prices or the emergence of "better" generation to investors from the public. There are more than a few nuclear power plants that are operating in regulated regions when in a unregulated region they would be competing with wind, solar, and natural gas in the market, all of which can often generate at half the cost of nuclear. Most in this thread want green generation but that won't happen quickly if inexpensive wind and solar isn't allowed to squeeze the other generators out in the market.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I don't think it is a question so much as regulation vs deregulation, but more of system design and control.
One thing I know for certain, is my pipelines wouldn't work very well, if anyone was allowed to build any kind of pump station wherever they pleased, leaving me to try to manage pressure and flow to meet the demands at the various tanks, terminals and connections by letting speculators set the price of pressure at the pump stations, other speculators setting the price of fuel, with the weather randomly throwing in monkey wrenches anywhere it chooses. That would be pretty much like how deregulation as practiced in TX today interferes with running a super critical and very highly complex system. The known variables are controlled by mother nature, or are entirely random, and there are more than enough unknowns already without trying to mix in as many more random variables as you possibly can. That's control by Brownian motion at best, but more likely that there is nobody behind the curtain at all. Meanwhile any opportunistic anteater digging the termite nest easily picks off all the little buggers that come running out wondering what the heck is going on.

Fisch,
Step back a second and look at what you actually wrote. Either you made a typo somewhere, or the snake is eating its tail.
TX has an unregulated/deregulated market yet it is that very market that is allowing green power to squeeze out gas/oil/nukes.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

As I understand it many in Tx use gas for house heating, is there a gas market?
And if,
Is it separate from the electrical market place?

Best Regards A

throwing in monkey wrenches, anteater digging the termite nest easily picks off all the little buggers lol

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Free market I do not know if there really is such a thing as a free market.
The EU is a free market, but before you can sell anything, it must meet all requirements and standards.
So how unregulated it is, it is still regulated in a sense.
If you have a free market for, say, for potatoes, then I as a consumer have the choice not to buy potatoes if the price is to high.
But when it comes to gas or electricity, that choice disappears more or less.
If a market is to function as a free, unregulated market, there must be many producers and consumers must have a choice.
But without requirements and standards for producers, a free market for gas and electricity will not work because consumers cannot choose not to buy when prices are to high.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Historically here, electrical power generation and distribution has been handled through Crown corporations. The distribution part of it is partially privatised now, and it remains to be seen whether privatising it as opposed to leaving it fully as a Crown corporation is a good long-term move. Ontario Power Generation remains a Crown corporation.

I don't know if anything equivalent to the structure of a Crown corporation exists in the USA.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I guess that I am mistakenly comparing privatization of Crown corporations with deregulation.
We didn't hear about deregulation before privatization.
This has happened in a few provinces.
The promise has been lower prices for the consumer.
The reality has been higher prices for the consumer.
I expect that the entrepreneurs and politicians pushing for privatization are first in line to buy up the privatized Crown assets.
And the rich get richer.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (waross)

We didn't hear about deregulation before privatization.
This has happened in a few provinces.
The promise has been lower prices for the consumer
When it comes to other state owned things much have been sold out like railroad, nothing got better trains don't come and go on time due to bad maintenance, it's difficult to buy tickets havening to go between different companies.

Here the state still owns the mayor power providers and many county's also own power company's.
Built and payed for with tax money, but then the the profits made helps keeping the taxes down.
They still sell and buy on the market place.
But here there is many rules to abide by.

Best Regards A

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (You are grossly over simplifying things with your statements that deregulation is bad.)


Where life safety issues are at stake, deregulation is bad. Case in point, people freezing to death in the recent Texas debacle, the Boeing 737 Max and the over half a million deaths due to the Coronavirus. People freezing to death in a civilised country because of a failure of infrastructure, is beyond the pale.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The gas and electric markets are separate, actually very separate. Here is the scarey bit. Natural gas producers and gas spot markets are not regulated.
Local distribution companies are regulated by the Public Utility Commissions, or other some such agency in each of the 50 states.

No government agency is charged with the direct oversight of natural gas producers day to day business activities. Production and marketing companies must operate legally; i.e. producers must obtain the authorization and permitting before beginning to drill, particularly on federally-owned land, however natural gas prices are determined by market forces. A market that is not regulated by the government.
NYMEX operates a futures exchange, thus futures trading is governed by their trading rules.
https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/commodities...

Yes, upsetting the termite nest, otherwise known as the "Mideast Peace Strategy".

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

dik,

You are conflated unregulated markets with no regulations. That isn't the case at all. An unregulated market is merely an open market where power is bought and sold. Regulated markets are where power producers get fixed rates of return.

These rolling blackout did happen in regulated regions as well.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (These rolling blackout did happen in regulated regions as well.)


and the fatalities, too?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

Yes, there were fatalities in those regions as well.

Why does feel like you are conflating several issues to obscure the fact that you aren't familiar with a lot of items in this thread? Deregulation has its pros and cons but I am not even sure you know what deregulation even is.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/
deregulation
noun [ U ] ECONOMICS, POLITICS
UK /ˌdiːreɡjəˈleɪʃən/ US
the process of removing government controls or rules from a business or other activity.

https://www.dictionary.com/
deregulation
[ dee-reg-yuh-ley-shuhn ]SHOW IPA

noun
the act or process of removing legislative controls or restrictions from an industry, commodity, etc.:

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Redsneak,

You don't have to go this route. You know well enough that industry definitions are not going to be defined in a dictionary.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I am to old, and my experience tells me, that assumptions is the mother of all fuckups.

Misunderstandings of words is one of them, or people having different perception of what they mean.

I have had production technicians who believes that commissioning is the same thing as producing ponder.
I guess you understand what the result of that was.

You would not call a relay a contactor or a light curtain a light barrier.

It is no criticism of you.

But the discussion becomes meaningless if the words do not mean the same thing to everyone who uses them.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Don't argue about definitions. Ya'll know what happened. And I have not seen one publication, or any shread if evidence that even implies one iota that REGULATION caused this mess. That throws the spotlight on deregulation. Now we know what it is.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44.

You are conflating the unregulated electrical markets with natural gas security. They are two seperate things and why you saw blackouts in Oklahoma and Louisiana, which have regulated electrical markets.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

"Of the around 70 deaths attributed to the snow, ice and frigid temperatures nationwide, more than a dozen were people who perished in homes that had lost their heat, and most of those were in Texas. They include an 11-year-old boy who died in his bed in Conroe, near Houston, and two older men found dead in their homes in the small West Texas town of Buffalo Gap in Taylor County." Texas is #1...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

I don't understand what you are saying has to do with unregulated electrical markets. Most people in the U.S. live in unregulated markets. It is not something that can't be made to work.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Please see post 14 Mar 21 09:47

"Electricity Market" is the commercial trading aspect.
The grid suffered blackouts, but, rightly, or wrongly, functioned as designed.
If that is to function better, design standards will have to be enacted and enforced. Some apparently call that part "regulated", as gas pipelines are under CFR TITLE 49 Parts 192, 194, et al.

The TEXAS "electric market" is the only thing that truely failed and it went ballistic.
Other regional markets did not respond to blackouts with a 10,000% price increase.
Are we supposed to expect that 10,000% price increase every time demand exceeds supply?
If not, apparently the electrical market needs to be regulated, or better regulated.
10,000% price increases are not acceptable.

PIPELINE DESIGN must conform to provisions of
TITLE 49 CFR Subchapter D - PIPELINE SAFETY, specifically,
PART 192 - TRANSPORTATION OF NATURAL AND OTHER GAS BY PIPELINE:
MINIMUM FEDERAL SAFETY STANDARDS (§§ 192.1 - 192.1015)
PART 193 - LIQUEFIED NATURAL GAS FACILITIES: FEDERAL SAFETY STANDARDS (§§ 193.2001 - 193.2917)
PART 194 - RESPONSE PLANS FOR ONSHORE OIL PIPELINES (§§ 194.1 - 194.121)
PART 195 - TRANSPORTATION OF HAZARDOUS LIQUIDS BY PIPELINE (§§ 195.0 - 195.591)
PART 196 - PROTECTION OF UNDERGROUND PIPELINES FROM EXCAVATION ACTIVITY (§§ 196.1 - 196.211)
PART 199 - DRUG AND ALCOHOL TESTING (§§ 199.1 - 199.245)

Getting back to "regulation" of Grid Design issues, please tell me which CFR applies to design of Electrical Systems, Grids and Generation Facilities?
Here are the list of CFRs.

CFR: TABLE OF CONTENTS
Title 1 - General Provisions
Title 2 - Grants and Agreements
Title 3 - The President
Title 4 - Accounts
Title 5 - Administrative Personnel
Title 6 - Domestic Security
Title 7 - Agriculture
Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality
Title 9 - Animals and Animal Products
Title 10 - Energy
Title 11 - Federal Elections
Title 12 - Banks and Banking
Title 13 - Business Credit and Assistance
Title 14 - Aeronautics and Space
Title 15 - Commerce and Foreign Trade
Title 16 - Commercial Practices
Title 17 - Commodity and Securities Exchanges
Title 18 - Conservation of Power and Water Resources
Title 19 - Customs Duties
Title 20 - Employees' Benefits
Title 21 - Food and Drugs
Title 22 - Foreign Relations
Title 23 - Highways
Title 24 - Housing and Urban Development
Title 25 - Indians
Title 26 - Internal Revenue
Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms
Title 28 - Judicial Administration
Title 29 - Labor
Title 30 - Mineral Resources
Title 31 - Money and Finance: Treasury
Title 32 - National Defense
Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters
Title 34 - Education
Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public Property
Title 37 - Patents, Trademarks, and Copyrights
Title 38 - Pensions, Bonuses, and Veterans' Relief
Title 39 - Postal Service
Title 40 - Protection of Environment
Title 41 - Public Contracts and Property Management
Title 42 - Public Health
Title 43 - Public Lands: Interior
Title 44 - Emergency Management and Assistance
Title 45 - Public Welfare
Title 46 - Shipping
Title 47 - Telecommunication
Title 48 - Federal Acquisition Regulations System
Title 49 - Transportation
Title 50 - Wildlife and Fisheries

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The answer, - at least the FERC part is
TITLE 18—Conservation of Power and Water Resources, CHAPTER I—FEDERAL ENERGY REGULATORY COMMISSION, DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY https://www.ferc.gov/enforcement-legal/legal/feder....

It is not clear if this is helpful.
OSHA Regulations 29 CFR 1910.269 - Electric power generation, transmission, and distribution.
Appendix G to § 1910.269-Reference Documents includes a list of relevant IEEE documents, but does not clearly indicate if they are included by reference.

H.R.5146 - Power plant and Industrial Fuel Use Act from 11/09/1978 does seem relevant as it allows the Secretary of Energy to require power plants and large boilers to have dual fuel capability.

I completely agree this was a Market Failure. I wounder how much entertainment we will get as the court suits over the payments for power at $9,000/kWhr are resolved, and who will be left standing.

It is possible to have a regulated utility and a power market coexist, and have a stable pricing environment. PJM has some heavily regulated utility, and some that are significantly less regulated in the same power market. Power does on the average cost a bit more than Texas, but after averaging in the winter storm price spike, it might not. It looks like the appropriate period for averaging Texas power prices must be the entire period the market has existed, or the impact of price upsets is left out.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

To get back to the real issue in Texas, it was that the combined gas and electricity system could not meet demand regardless of price.

The extreme conditions experienced went outside the bounds of the market system and it essentially failed.

This is compounded by ERCOT not being able to or not willing to pay for standby power which is not actually generating, which is what a lot of other grid operators do. So essentially an insurance policy. Insurance policies cost money. But no insurance then in the event of failure or incident, you're on the hook for the entire cost or impact. Texas clearly have decided they don't want to pay the insurance policy premium and hence every 10 years or so will suffer a rolling black out / failure of electricity / energy supply.

Now what power source any standby generators could have used isn't clear as the gas system reduced capacity also. I don't know what entity regulates or runs the natural gas grid in Texas, but I can only imagine it works on the same basis. I'm sure I saw a report in this thread or the part 1 where some guys battled out to their shut in gas wells and hoped in a week to pay back the cost of buying them based on the natural gas price being offered for variable supply / spot market prices.

Whether Texas or ERCOT now decide to do it differently I don't know, but this is a regulated market, just with much wider bands and a "light touch" by the regulator / grid company who rely on market forces to balance the grid instead of planned capacity and back ups being paid to stand idle ready to spring into life when required maybe for one week a year.

Given the switch to a more variable, but low cost, electricity supply from solar and wind, this is causing headaches all over the world for grid operators used for decades to large reliable plants delivering fixed quantities of electricity. There is no one answer.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

FacEngr,

OSHA regs speak towards operational issues, tree trimming and safety in maintenance. I didnt see any specific engineering design specs, other than how they might affect labor safety issues.

Now I'm more confused after reading HR 5146. Is there anything there related to today's requirements? They must be very busy exempting all new facilities from those requirements.

LI,
It is concerning that the grid design is seemingly not in actual control of anyone. Design and operation based primarily on price of electricity and the daily whims of gen operators does not make the least bit of engineering sense, yet that appears to be the way it is "self assembling" and then operating.

Where did you see that some were closing well heads? Not totally surprising if it turns out to be true though. "Its a free country. No law against it.", rules the west, well heads, water rights, etc. included. At least until the sheriff shows up.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It looks as if the Texas gas producers will have a lot on their plate this year. In addition to freeze protection of producer wells, they now will also need to take action to reduce flaring. It seems likely that the costs for both of these actions wil be shared with the consumer indirectly thru some type of taxation, as the well owners are already strapped for cash and normally at the end of their lines of credit.

Modifying gas turbines to also burn oil, if not provided with that capability originally , will also be costly, and the fuel control system, combustor changes, control system changes, oil tanks, etc are not small capital items.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

And require space that they may not have and additional measures for tank emissions control

I think HR 5146 "exceptions" could be the order of the day. I somehow doubt that installing oil and coal burning backup for gas turbines will be the "final solution".

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

So what if toilet paper at the store had went from $1 per 6 rolls to $9000 per 6 rolls, would that have changed the demand curve in the recent shortage? No, likely not.
The same for the electric and gas markets. There was just not enough being produced, for the short time demand.

Yes the electric and gas markets are intertied, because there are too few plants that can change or use other fuels, and renewables are not reliable.

If you want to untie the two, the electric producers need to use other fuels, or store natural gas on site, just like the old coal plants, did.
So energy storage, or fuel storage, and a lot of it.

I do recall one coal plant that could burn 100 tons an hour per 600 MW unit. The coal was delivered every once or twice a week. So at 100 tons per car, for maybe a 100 car train, that would be 10000 tons delivered per week, give or take. So lots of fuel storage.

Yes people in Texas use natural gas for home heating (which does not work without electric), like most of the midwestern states, but there go to backup for that is electric heat.
The $5 bundles of wood at the store is for a show fire, and never a real way to heat ones home.



RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If TP is $9000 I will make a bidet or research and observe any of the sanitary practices that preceded its use. This will definately be a case of elastic norms as opposed to inelastic demand. It's alright if you don't come over for dinner winky smile

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Why I persist in taking the actual, physical newspaper :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

LittleInch,

What makes you think that spinning and non=spinning reserves aren't compensated?


What makes you think that RRCOT doesn't have adequate reserve margin?

http://www.ercot.com/news/releases/show/219347

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Maybe because of this.

Estimate was for this winter’s electrical load of about 67,000 megawatts.
But the shadow estimates published by ERCOT suggested about 72,000 megawatts of peak demand.
ERCOT has the ability to supply electrical capacity of about 80,000 megawatts.
ERCOT runs “light” in terms of electric system reserve capacity with reserves typically about 8%.
This compares with other US grids where targeted reserve margins are about 15 %


https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Whos-To...


https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/c...

Best Regard A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Rednake,

You are circling around the same issue over and over and trying to make it about the electrical grid. It was a natural gas problem. The load wasn't even at summer peak levels, which is what your capacity margin is benchmarked against in Texas. Even if there was more generation built, it wouldn't have changed anything because any additional generation would have been for natural gas because that is the most economic means generating electricity. That puts you at the same exact spot due to natural gas constraints.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The difference between Capacity vs Availability.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)

Quote (Fischstabchen)


...trying to make it about the electrical grid. It was a natural gas problem.

If that's true, then there are really only TWO solutions, either figure out how one would store enough natural gas (or a suitable alternate fuel) close to generation facilities so that they can withstand a temporary outage from the pipeline system. Barring that, it would then fall to the second solution, which would be to do what they were told to do 10 years ago, winterize the gas supply system.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

So, Fischstabshen, perhaps it’s time for you to come clean - why the endless defense of an utter failure? What’s your vested stake in it?

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

davidbeach,

There is a gross mischaracterization of the situation by a number of people posting. First, it is the Texas Interconnect is not governed by NERC and FERC. I wish someone here would inform the TRE of this. Then, it is a deregulated electrical grid and those Texas cowboys just do whatever they feel like and have no regulations. Then it is ERCOT's fault even though they were providing winterizion training and released several warnings on the potential of this winter being cold and causing problems. Then it is deregulation even though most people in the U.S. live in deregulated regions and regulated regions in Oklahoma and Louisiana also had blackouts. Then it is people blaming deregulation and it is apparent by their post that they have no clue what it means to have a deregulated electrical system and how un-special it is for the ERCOT region to be deregulated or that all this is the result of deregulation even though the Pennsylvania region is huge on fracking and natural gas generation and is also deregulated and somehow manages to get through the winters. I am not defending the fact that winterization recommendations weren't carried out but it is ridiculous how much people not familiar with the situation feel compelled to not just comment on it but comment on it with blind certainty. You have in the renewable thread people commenting that Texas is not how to do renewables when aside from having 1 GW ramps in 2007-2008, ERCOT doesn't have the frequency regulation issues that you have in California and other regions with low inertia and high renewables. Then are comments about reliability. I have only lost power three times in the last 15 years in Houston (this cold snap and Hurricanes Ike and Harvey) and California shuts itself off during a slight breeze and the northeast messed things up so badly in 2003 that NERC was created. Yeah, the 2003 Northeast blackout was such a screw up the whole country fell under a book of regulation. What about the southwest blackout of 2011? Or people going weeks without power after Hurricane Sandy on the east coast? New York in 65 and 77? California and Enron in 2001? In addition, this was a natural gas supply issue and not even the grid itself. I believe that a lot of this is because Texas is a conservative state and is getting a lot of proxy hate. I am not even conservative but I have a hard time coming up with any other reason why so many would just dump on the state with such flimsy crap. I have been a poster on this board for 15 years and I have never seen so much flimsy crap. Where was this flimsy crap for California and the southwest in 2011? Where was this flimsy crap after a number of blackouts of the northeast?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

NERC existed prior to 2003, since 1968 in fact. I trust that the rest of your statements are of the same caliber as the statement that NERC was created in 2003. Buh-bye.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

NERC was an industry council formed in 1968. It was even named the National Electric Reliability Council. The 2003 blackout happened and The Energy Act of 2005 was passed and mandated the creation of an Electric Reliability Organization (ERO). NERC applied to FERC to be the ERO and was granted the role. NERC than changed its name to the North American Electric Reliability Corporation to reflect the fact that they no longer were this small volunteer support group and now were a regulating organization that was able to mandate practices under the threat of millions of dollars in fines. NERC as we know it today only became what it is when it became an ERO in 2006. Saying NERC started in 1968 is like saying the investment firm Berkshire Hathaway started in the 1800s as a textile company and not when Warren Buffett started using the name for his investment firm.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

You would have served your cause far better by simply saying "oops". Now you've doubled down on the lie that NERC was created following 2003. Created was your choice of words. As any judge would tell any jury, if a witness can be determined to be untruthful about one thing, it can be safely assumed that the witness was untruthful about other things as well. NERC was not created in 2003, nor as a result of 2003. Your choice of words. All else tarred by the same brush. I don't need to dig into each and every one of the rest of that, it's all equal to NERC being created in, as a result of, 2003. Could even have said that NERC took on a stronger role, but you opted to say created, and then when shown it was clearly false you deflected.

Come clean, what's your vested interest? What ox of your's is being gored?

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Saying NERC started in 1968 is like saying the investment firm Berkshire Hathaway started in the 1800s as a textile company and not when Warren Buffett started using the name for his investment firm. One is a volunteer industry group and the other is a regulating body. It isn't expanding a role but a completely different organization. Enough so that they recognized this and changed their name.

Edit: They aren't even the same NERC. It wasn't a name change but a completely new organization that was formed on March 28, 2006 and took on the acronym NERC.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Still haven’t said what ax you’re trying to grid... Stop diverting.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

davidbeach,

You aren't interested in a real discussion if you are trying to keep score with when NERC was created and even you didn't have that right.

There are gross misrepresentations of the grid under ERCOT and I have worked in MISO, SPP, and ERCOT and they all are planned, operated, and maintained almost the exact same way.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I was on to this not being an electrical failure since,

Quote:

1503-44 (Petroleum)18 Feb 21 13:13
Gov Abbot of TX blames AOC & renewables. "Methinks the govna' doth protest too much."
Im betting he'll walk home with that rooster and this originated at the gas fields with wells offline due to low price and other operators that didn't light up the well heaters in time to prevent freeze ups. Hydrates can start appearing at low 40s°F

Since then, I have been trying to figure out how an electrical distribution system can arise, seemingly without central authority having control of deciding the location, capacity and generator type, then seemingly be operated solely by changing the price of electricity, while all other significant factors are essentially random variables in regard to system installed capacity, available capacity, electricity demand and corresponding day to day operating procedures. That is still a mystery to me. I would think it is total madness to do that with a simple A to B pipeline.

The only failure I see ERCOT and the TX PUC responsible for is thinking that the price of electricity alone would be sufficient to essentially let a large, critical system self-design, maintain balance of supply and demand and keep it operating within all constraints, especially that of an apparently expected reliability of 99.75% or more.

Quote:

fischstabchen, MISO, SPP, and ERCOT, all are planned, operated, and maintained almost the exact same way.

Could you please explain more about that topic? Is it as disorganised as I think? I hope not, but it does appear to me, literally, that the monkeys are at the drawing boards, pulling the levers and throwing the dice. monkey How do they do it?

That said, I can see some similarity in how pipelines systems at the national level manage to develope with minimal central oversight. The FERC attempts to keep unnecessary gas pipelines from being constructed and approves transportation tarriffs, but actually little else. If they determine that a pipeline project is necessary, serves the public's interests and does not unfairly restrict, or otherwise promotes fair competition, they will normally issue their approval and CFR regulations govern their design, construction and even operation to some extent. I see nothing comparable for electric systems, but I'm certainly no expert there.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Actually most utilities were managing fine, until the northeast blackout. After that regulating authorities were demanded. Then it was demanded that utilities must purchase power by any producer, opening the way for Non-Utility Generators (NUG's). Later congress got involved and decided wind and solar needed a seat and special treatment. Then congress wanted to regulate (more) the coal industry.
So now we have the uneven and messey playing field we have today.

No fuel or energy storage, and just in time fuel delivery (or just a few days late).

So the coal industry is going to die, and we are shouting about how to replace it (in the dark, in Texas).

This is what happens when government thinks they know best for us.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

[quote Fischstabchen] You are circling around the same issue over and over and trying to make it about the electrical grid. It was a natural gas problem. quote]

First of all I am NOT circling atom.
I am trying my best to make an straight line, which is totally impossible since everybody else is jumping between different subjects like high prices, Governor faults, politics or converting to CO2 free power generation and so on.
That was one reason why started a new thread about going green so this one could be about the Tx outages only.
So despite my best effort the best I can manage is making S-shaped curves like an anaconda. snake

Secondly, the only one who is making something here right now, is you.
There was no mentioning about the electrical grid or making it about it, in my post above, you made that assumption.
So please, do not read things between the lines that are not there.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (cranky)

Actually most utilities were managing fine, until the northeast blackout.
...
This is what happens when government thinks they know best for us.

Cranky, please stop confusing gov regulation of electric grids with a deregulated free electric market. It is the exact opposite. Unless you mean that gov deregulated the market and made it a free market.


If they were managing just fine, how did they manage themselves into the NE Blackout?
Pipelines must offer available transport capacity to all producers.
Grids must transport electricity.
This is what happens when design/op/maint is accomplished by a free market.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

Where was this flimsy crap for California and the southwest in 2011? Where was this flimsy crap after a number of blackouts of the northeast?
I think that the 'Flimsy crap" is sort of following the $9000 per KWHr charges that seem to be unique to Texas.
Maybe de-regulation is a broad term and maybe Texas de-regulation is a different flavour than other regions' de-regulation.
And, two distinct questions are being intermingled here;
Why did the grid fail?
Why were charges allowed to reach insane levels?
Do other regions have a realistic price cutoff price at which point rolling black-outs are initiated?

An interesting question:
How much capacity came on-line at prices between $100 per KWHr and $9000 per KWHR?
Was it worth the pain?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I don't think it was an electrical failure, but much worse... it was a systemic failure.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44,

All the NERC standards that other regions follow also are followed by ERCOT. Each region and registered member has a slightly different way to meet those requirements but they are nearly all the same. NERC in my opinion killed good engineering to prevent bad engineering. I am not sure if that is a bad thing because utilities don't have the expertise anymore due to the industry neglecting to hire young people and now you have a whole wave of people retiring. Utilities often can't do certain things themselves anymore and outsource anything hard. I don't even think a utility is a place for a specialist because most projects just involve project managers overseeing contractors and consultants.

Redsnake,

There have been several comments about the grid and your comment was about there being capacity issues. There has been a strong push for more capacity over the years and increasing the the cap to $9,000 one means to do that. 9% is considered enough and ERCOT shoot fors 13%. When you bring up that there should have been more capacity, you are neglecting the fact that most generation being built presently in the U.S. , not just in ERCOT, is natural gas or solar and wind. Even if there had been more capacity, it likely would have made no difference due to the amount of renewable energy being low, newly built dispatchable generation would be gas due to the economics and would have been affected by reduced natural gas availability, and the generation portfolio is not planned to handle a 30-40% lost in capacity due to a systemic issue like loss of fuel. Dispatchable generation is becoming less diverse due to the economics. Coal and nuclear plants are closing due to taking a beating from natural gas in unregulated markets. There are inherent problems due to a lost of diversity. In very green regions, there are frequency regulation and stability issues due to a lost of inertia and dispatability. With natural gas becoming the more prominent dispatchable generation, more concern should be given to its fuel supply. One thing that is not taken into account is that the FERC report for the cold weather event in 2011 with its recommendations was early in the natural gas boom. There was more dispatchable coal generation. There was more diversity and dispatchability and I think that this cold snap would have still caused problems, but if we had the same proportional portfolio the problems would have been less severe. Florida has mandates for some generators to able to accept duel fuel to be able to run after sourcing problems following a hurricane. Maybe, that is an option or just winerize the entire natural gas system.

Cranky108,

I agree most utilities were good actors. A lot of penalties are centered around CIP and vegetation control. Florida Power and Light is the utility that has been fined pretty hard for not controlling their vegetation. Several utilities have been fined millions for CIP violations and deservedly so. I don't believe most utilities would have gotten around to making their systems cyber secure without CIP. CIP, in my opinion, is probably the most important thing to come out form NERC.

Davidbeach,

I don't really like arguing with you because you have helped me on several projects. I don't agree with you on some of this and am ok with it just being that. I have enjoyed reading your contributions. I have been reading them for years.


RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Waross,

The electrical prices were mandated to the maximum by the PUC due to them believing they should be the max ,$9,000 per MWH, due to all customers not being served and the market should be the max to incentives everyone to generate. Prior to this, the markets were closing around $1,500 per MWH. I don't think that the buyers could drive the price organically to $9,000 if many went bankrupt. I find it hard to believe that Brazos and a number of wholesalers would ever put in bids at $9,000 knowing it would bankrupt them or that there are generators that wouldn't do what was needed to come online when the prices were around $1500 per MWH, about 50 times normal rates. SPP I believe doesn't have any sort of market cap but I think we all would agree the prices could not be driven to infinity. The prices could only be driven to what the buyer can afford to bid. With the PUC forcing the market to close out at the maximum, to me that isn't deregulation but not well thought out regulation. It would have been better if the state put together a temporary subsidy to sweeten up the deal for generation rather than screw all buyers. Or maybe just have the Attorney General promise to put a magnifying glass on anyone not doing everything possible during the crisis.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Fischstabchen)

There have been several comments about the grid and your comment was about there being capacity issues.
Now you did it again stop assuming things.
My comment was "Maybe because of this"
Everything else was comments from oilprice.com and ERCOT actually showing the opposite.
That it wasn't a capacity issue!

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

FERC has promised an investigation.

Everyone is dodging this. So then can ANY electrical engineer explain? I am beginning to think NOT. Is there any rationality to grid design and operation, or does some giant spider just come along, spin it and turn it over to the chimps. If there is no explanation, then ERCOT gets the blame by default.

------------
How an electrical distribution system can arise, seemingly without central authority having control of deciding the location, capacity and generator type, then seemingly be operated, all solely by changing the price of electricity, while all other significant factors are essentially random variables in regard to system installed capacity, available capacity, electricity demand and corresponding day to day operating procedures. That is still a mystery to me. I would think it is total madness to do that with a simple A to B pipeline.

OK, you don't have to write it yourself, just a link will do.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (How an electrical distribution system can arise, seemingly without central authority having control of deciding the location, capacity and generator type, then seemingly be operated, all solely by changing the price of electricity, while all other significant factors are essentially random variables in regard to system installed capacity, available capacity, electricity demand and corresponding day to day operating procedures. That is still a mystery to me. I would think it is total madness to do that with a simple A to B pipeline.)


That's why I said the failure was systemic...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fischstabchen I have two questions for you.

When you get power outages do your power company compensate you for that?
And how many of this power generator company's that use natural gas as fuel own there own gas wells?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I have to agree. Systemic failure by design, or rather lack thereof.

I hope to find answers to some of my management of grid design questions here,
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/ebf483/

Quote (www.ercot.com)

Electric Reliability Council of Texas
The Electric Reliability Council of Texas operates the electric grid and manages the deregulated market for 75 percent of the state

I think its clear why they do not say they "manage the grid".

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
In light of what happened, the real irony in that description is the use of the term "Reliability" winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Redsnake,

I am not aware of any form of compensation. A co-op I worked for in another state had an agreement with the distribution co-ops to have only a certain amount of outage hours over a 3 year span. If the the hours were exceeded, there was a lot of pressure to make some type of an improvement.

None of the utilities I worked for were involved in owning gas production for their generation. A transmission and gas company I worked for did get involved got involved in a joint venture for upstream gas production but I believe that was more about trying to try to exceed the companies meager 4% regulated return with some type of outside investment than sourcing their own gas. They managed to lose money on it. The Calpine Natural Gas Company is a subsidiary of Calpine ,the gas and power generation company, and owns wells but I think that is the exception and not the rule. There are probably a lot of joint ventures but probably are more about making money on the gas boom than sourcing their own gas. Fracking wells don't last that long and crews are constantly moving to drill new wells. At least initially, a lot of big companies avoided the natural gas boom because of this hassle and it was made up of a lot of small players.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

...part of the reason for the systemic failure.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

US Interstate gas transmission pipelines have not been allowed to own their own gas since being deregulated in the early 80's. They only do transportation.

------------------------
TX Gas Production Cuts
------------------------

Quote (https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=46...)

Natural gas production in Texas fell almost 45% from 21.3 Bcf/d during the week ending February 13 to a daily low of 11.8 Bcf/d on Wednesday, February 17, according to estimates from IHS Markit. Temperatures in Texas averaged nearly 30 degrees Fahrenheit lower than normal during the week of February 14. The decline in natural gas production was mostly a result of freeze-offs, which occur when water and other liquids in the raw natural gas stream freeze at the wellhead or in natural gas gathering lines near production activities. Unlike the relatively winterized natural gas production infrastructure in northern areas of the country, natural gas production infrastructure, such as wellheads, gathering lines, and processing facilities, in Texas are more susceptible to the effects of extremely cold weather. After reaching a daily low on February 17, natural gas production in Texas began increasing as temperatures started to rise. Daily production reached an estimated 20.9 Bcf/d on February 24, only about 0.3 Bcf/d lower than the average in the week ending February 13.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

dik,

by that you mean?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Fischstabchen)

I am not aware of any form of compensation.

I meant for a household consumer.
Here if the outages is more then a predefined length, you get deduction on your bills, of course you do not pay the power since you didn't get any but also transmission cost , depending on if it was the transmission company or the power company that was at fault.

And I wonder how this Emergency Alert specifically the public Conservation Alert is issued?

Conservation Alert
ERCOT - Conservation Alert
Yellow graphic with black text show the ERCOT conservation alert.
At this level, ERCOT aims to raise public awareness about shrinking reserves and the need to actively conserve energy to prevent emergency conditions.

Emergency Alerts
ERCOT - Emergency Alert Level 1
Level 1: The first EEA level is Conservation Needed.
ERCOT issues this alert when operating reserves drop below a target threshold.
This level puts providers on notice to take preliminary measures to curb demand before the situation worsens.

ERCOT - Emergency Alert Level 2
Level 2: If conditions worsen, ERCOT will next issue an EEA Level 2 – Conservation Critical.
At this level, providers are permitted to reduce their power load by interrupting supply to large commercial and industrial accounts.
The contracts these clients sign stipulate that such measures may be necessary in an emergency.

ERCOT - Emergency Alert Level 3
Level 3: If power supply declines further, ERCOT will then declare an EEA Level 3 – Rotating Outages in Progress, the final alert level.
At this level, ERCOT will require electricity providers throughout the state to begin introducing temporary outages at the local distribution level—also known as rolling brownouts or rotating outages.

https://magicvalley.coop/ercot/

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44

Here is something that was done just to get better control over the usage (measuring).

In September 2003, the state legislature and PUC ordered ERCOT to transition from a wholesale electric market with four large regions to a marketplace made up of more than 4,000 nodes throughout the state. This undertaking, called the Nodal Project, aims to improve the efficiency of the grid by having more specific information for different locations throughout the state.

https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/tag/ercot/

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Always nice to know where the nodes are and what part of the grid they are in.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

smile Yes, do you not like to play blind buck ?



BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I never follow the masses, especially when I can see where they are going.
I expect you already knew that.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yea I did smile
Just wasn't shore you knew what a blind bock was winky smile

Best Regards Anna jester2

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Actually, de-regulation, was not an opening up of the electric markets. If you believe that, you should ride your unicorn somewhere else.

De-regulation, was nothing but a different type of regulation. Stupid thing like I am not allowed to give some specific information to some of my co-workers (like project timelines).

Electric grids are designed by Transmission planners who plan needed changes from electric node to electric node. Power plants are normally placed in locations to the electric grid, fuel, transportation, and land available. Transmission planners do have groups that trade information between companies. (I actually don't know why I am defending planners, they should be doing that themselves).

Plant operators, do have economic concerns in mind, and many are more concerned about the EPA then winterizing, so it should be easy to see what the government wants done first. And yes CIP is more of a concern then winterizing, because there are fines being leveled for CIP, but not for winterizing.
In fact, the concerns about wireless mouse, as a CIP concern is more of a concern than winterizing.

No one wants FERC because the results they come up with don't make since, and look more like the results of wac-a-mole, which is why everyone keeps there heads down. No one wants a big fine for something that is industry practice.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

EPA ??
CIP ??

Quote (cranky108)

I actually don't know why I am defending planners, they should be doing that themselves
It's okay and it's good for understanding smile better you than no one.
Maybe there isn't any around.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thanks. No worries. I read all of the lessons in the link I posted.
The chimps do good work 97.5% of the time.



RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Environmental Protection Agency (US government Agency)
Critical Infrastructure Protection (NERC cyber security standards)

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thanks stevenal smile
Couldn't help seeing that you have a Swedish last name, good for you winky smile

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Cranky108,

Information shared by the transmission owner and operator must be shared equally to all the players. Companies would game the system if some market participants had an advantage. I never found this to be a problem due to the fact that engineering is completely unrelated to the group that participates in the electrical markets.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (https://www.naturalgasintel.com/texas-retail-power...)



Excerpts from link ...

Texas Retail Power Provider Griddy Seeking Chapter 11, Says ERCOT Caused ‘Financial Devastation’
Griddy said ERCOT was responsible for the “financial devastation” stemming from the storm.

Griddy CEO Michael Fallquist said ERCOT “made a bad situation worse” by leaving the scarcity pricing in effect “long after firm load shed instructions had stopped. Our customers paid 300 times more than the normal price for electricity during this period.”

Texas legislators have unveiled a series of bills in recent days to correct the failures that caused February’s crisis. One bill would prohibit REPs such as Griddy from offering wholesale-indexed products to consumers.

The “most significant” bill proposed so far is one that would direct PUCT <Public Utility Commission of TX> to initiate a rulemaking for weatherizing electrical systems, according to analysts at ClearView Energy Partners LLC.

In a note to clients, the ClearView team indicated that legislative proposals requiring PUCT to retroactively reprice wholesale markets during the storm period are likely to be introduced over the coming days and weeks.

The wellhead freeze-offs “were exacerbated by power outages to production equipment as oil and gas infrastructure was not considered critical…by most electricity distribution companies,

“We estimate gas supply chain issues alone contributed to 10.3 GW of the 18 GW in outages at gas plants, led by wellhead freeze-offs.

In related news, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said Tuesday he had accepted the resignation of PUCT’s Arthur D’Andrea, who was the only remaining commissioner still serving after the other commissioners resigned following the February crisis.



RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (The chimps do good work 97.5% of the time.)


They missed one... my dad had 3 ivory monkeys on a wood base... the fourth monkey was missing, he told me as a child was, "Do No Evil". Likely applicable in Texas.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Meaning that they should not have turned off the gas company's electricity?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
I heard somewhere where Griddy, the company responsible for most of those horror stories about people having their bank accounts wiped out by automatic payments covering their electric bills, has offered to refund people's payments IF they agree to not take them to court and sue for civil damages.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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Irvine, CA
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Smart move on their part. If Griddy were to lose in court, then legal fees and damages would apply. I think they know that they should not have sold contracts with that much exposure to just anybody that could manage to click through.

Yes, I know the usual "buyer beware" warning, but that's why we have lawyers.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Could someone please explain, "during the week of February 14" does it mean the week before Sunday the 14:e?
Strange expression ponder

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The week (usually from Sunday to Saturday, inclusive) that contained 14 Feb.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
I don't think this item has been posted yet, and while it appears that the person responsible for this promise to Wall Street bankers, that they will be allowed to keep the profit they made off the people of Texas who suffered through the recent winter storm and the resulting blackouts, has lost his job, it's not clear from the article whether what he claimed will happen will now be reversed:

Some on Wall Street Profited off Texas Blackouts. In a Private Call, a Top Regulator Pledged He Would Try to Protect Their Windfall.

Public Utility Commission chairman Arthur D’Andrea apologized to investors last week for the “uncertainty” around its profits.


https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/wall-st...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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Irvine, CA
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

From the link,
"On Tuesday night, PUC chairman s Arthur o D’Andrea b, who was appointed chairman by Governor Greg Abbott less than two weeks ago, has resigned." Further says that there is an understanding that "gas price is set by the world market". Uhhh... Not that price Arthur.

Now this may just be the tip of the iceberg. A complete work-around to deregulation.
From 18 Feb, just saw it today. Pull back the curtains, and its a gentail, er, sorry, "gentailers".

Quote (http://www.energychoicematters.com/stories/2021021...)

The whole purpose of deregulation was to break them <apart>. For some reason they are now called gentailers (generators + retailers) and they have been allowed to purchase companies like Ambit, Stream, Gexa, Cirro, TriEagle, Green Mountain, and the list can go on," the CEO of the REP said in the communication to the PUC. The CEO of the REP further noted that various holding companies which own REPs have also formed or purchased brokers, as the CEO noted that the Commission prohibits a REP itself from being a broker

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

SAPO'd, comes to mind...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Doesn't it bother anyone that there is so much wrong here that no one is addressing? This unbridled capitalism has cost numerous lives.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

But that's the Texas way.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Case in point, April 17, 2013 in West, Texas (look it up).

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (But that's the Texas way.)


If they are too stupid to realise that things are wrong, this choice should be taken from them. You don't let kids play with chainsaws.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Case in point, April 17, 2013 in West, Texas (look it up).)


We had a worse tragedy at the turn of the last century in Halifax... again, same end result.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

if it was unbridled capitalism that was responsible for deaths, why did regulated regions have blackouts and fatalities? Can you also tell me what unbridled capitalism is?

JohnRBaker,

Do you know the result of the investigation into the fertilizer plant explosion you referenced?

"In 2016, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives announced the fire that caused the West Fertilizer Plant Explosion was set intentionally, and there was a $50,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of the person or people responsible.

The ATF came to that conclusion after more than 400 interviews and scientific testing at the bureau's Fire Research Laboratory in Maryland."

https://www.wfmynews2.com/article/news/local/west-...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Can you also tell me what unbridled capitalism is?)


No need to be obtuse... other areas suffer from a similar fatal flaw, and not anywhere near the number of fatalities, deregulation of life threatening issues should not exist... take a gander at Texas... where those in charge are stating that they will help the protagonists to maintain their ill gotten gains. I would suggest that this was unbridled capitalism.

As I noted before... they should be SAPO'd.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fisch, why did you open that can of worms. Oh... It was JohnRBaker. Don't double down on that.
The problem with the West fertiliser incident is not how it happened, or who done it. The problem is that massive quantity of explosives were stored at the center of town.
YES, JUST LIKE BERUIT LEBANON.
In Lebanon, the government resigned.
In TX, nobody resigned...business as usual.

Results?

West, TX Aftermath
Furthermore the West problem has not been fixed. Trump rolled back the new regulations that would have improved chemical safety across the country, 13 of 19 recommendations of CSB investigation were ignored. https://www.csb.gov/west-fertilizer-explosion-and-...

Still there are Questions
There are still unanswered questions about ATF's investigation in last months story from TX Public Radio.
https://www.keranews.org/news/2021-02-11/new-detai...

AND ... THE WORST IS

After the explosion, then-Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott <yes, he is now Govenor> began writing opinions that allowed the state to deny open records requests for ammonium nitrate facilities. The current AG, Ken Paxton, has continued this practice. The Texas Commission on Environmental Quality said there are 33 sites in Texas today, but denied TPR’s records request for more information on where they are and who operates them.

It would not surprise me in the least if they are using "security against terrorism" and "data protection" as their excuses to keep the nitrate warehouse locations hidden. Widely used tactics to keep the sheets on the bed.
We have meet the enemy and he is us.



Eng-Tips needs to keep that thread OPEN. Where did it go? I can't find it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

ERCOT admits errors... of the software kind.
17 March

Quote (http://www.energychoicematters.com/stories/2021031...)


ERCOT has discovered that its Market Management System (MMS) software contained programming errors that resulted in an incorrect MW amount being used for the estimated deployed ERS component of the RTORDPA for certain Security-Constrained Economic Dispatch (SCED) intervals on OD February 15, 2021."

But I'm not sure which way those revisions will go. Kinda sounds like .. Idonno

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Fischstabchen, my comment about West, Texas had NOTHING to do with the cause of the explosion but rather the fact that Texas zoning laws, or I should say the lack there of, allowed a fertilizer plant, which was known to be storing potentially explosive materials, to coexist next to a school and a nursing home. As was the case in Houston, and suburbs like Katy, where the non-existent zoning laws allowed both commercial and residential development on bottom lands that was known to flood on a regular basis, like what happened after Hurricane Harvey.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Zoning laws are a can of worms in themselves, and are of a concern.

I have seen laws that don't allow a bar to be within some distance of a school. But miss applied where a school district had purchased land, years ago for some future project. A person wanted to build a bar, but was turned down because the school district owned the land that was too close.

To me the same law should be applied that would turned down a school to be built if it were too close to a bar. Who ever builds first should be allowed.

So the zoning is a problem and subjective.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

Locking prices at their max was not capitalism. It was ill thought out regulation. Like I said earlier, the markets were only clearing at $1,500 before mandate by the PUC for them to be the max.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (ERCOT admits errors... of the software kind.)


The problem is systemic...

@Fisch... I'm not going to get into semantics... regulation being set up by the capitalists...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

North Dakota was paying attention.

Quote (https://www.naturalgasintel.com/north-dakota-split...)

Meanwhile, North Dakota lawmakers are weighing in on gas capture and electricity reliability, particularly in the oilfields. Proposed legislation is moving forward including state Senate Bill (SB) 2065 that deals with permitting and legal processes for developing storage for natural gas, propane, hydrogen, and natural gas liquids.

“They are looking for a solution to the situation Texas faced last month by using natural gas storage supplies that will be shifted from heating to electric generation,” Helms said. “That’s an important policy piece.”

State House Bill 1452 would establish a Clean Stable Energy Authority. In addition, SB 2014 proposes funding for studies on gas storage to enhance the state’s ability to develop a petrochemicals industry. The key is to have more storage to increase statewide reliability in the face of a super freeze like Texas experienced,

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Their climate necessitates that... parts of ND can have Texas weather for several months each year...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
And some of those months are NOT always found in that section of the calendar generally associated with Winter winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

This bit is troublesome. “They are looking for a solution to the situation Texas faced last month by using natural gas storage supplies that will be shifted from heating to electric generation,” Helms said. “That’s an important policy piece.”

I would change "shifted" to "shared". Shifted implies going without heating and that was a TX problem. Unless they are sure heating can indeed be turned off. I doubt they would be able to identify those, or operate that scheme with confidence, as it seems that in TX, electricity going to gas treating was cut. In which case a separate storage for electric gen would be more prudent and easier to operate when you are up to you're a$$ in frozen alligators and nobody's got a match.

The Dakota gas production chart shows they also had a significant gas problem, but apparently without such a big domino effect into electric power gen.
https://e8ca3vmtat3.exactdn.com/wp-content/uploads...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (And some of those months are NOT always found in that section of the calendar generally associated with Winter)


I know... I live 100 miles north of them... almost just like here...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Yes, I went to school (in the UP of Michigan) where we consider Minneapolis as a large SOUTHERN city winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

For you Huskies, Marquette is a southern city.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
There were certainly very few US cities NORTH of us.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

JohnRBaker,

Seattle and Spokane are more north than Houghton. There are a lot of cities of 7k people just as north or more. Map distortion makes it look further north. Same with the northeast.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Perhaps, but when you're looking North and all you see is the cold expanse of Lake Superior, knowing that the far shore is Canada, any awareness of your precise latitude tends to have a minimal impact on your thoughts winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

One summer I put my sleeping bag and tent on my bike and biked to the northeastern corner of Minnesota to the Canadian border and back from central Minnesota. Things start getting pretty sparse once you get past Grand Marais and approach the Indian reservation Grand Portage. There is old highway 90 and new highway 90 and if you are going to bike around Lake Superior, you can take old highway 90 for most of it on the MN side and follow the shoreline. It is quite pretty in the summer. I stopped to swim in Lake Supperior in Grand Marais. The water was still pretty cold in August.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

No fishing rod ? fish2

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Yes, a right-of-passage was that at least once before graduation, you had to take a dip in Lake Superior, and of course, if you waited until the last minute, that meant that you're going to have to take that plunge in June. And if you think Lake Superior is cold in August, you should try it in June.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

When I was really young, the grand premier was always 24 June midsummer, in the Boltic Sea +6 C then 3 times a day all summer smile

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Yea, like jumping in that pond after our visit to the Sauna. BTW, that was in Gimo, Sweden in May.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

You don't drown... your thingamajiggers move up into your throat and you choke to death... lol

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yes but without the sauna before winky smile coming home with blue lips freezing and shivering, next day all forgotten same thing.
After a sauna it's nice with a cold dipp in a creak, pond, sea or in snow, it is refreshing smile

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I used to go swimming almost every (summer) day June-Aug at Lake Shore Park. Looks like its Calumet Waterworks Park now. That lake was cold all the time, but I'd get out 100% blue in June after just 15m. My uncle built an air compressor from a motorcycle engine before the war and would go hard hat diving there up till the late 50s.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
This picture was taken a couple of miles south of Lake Shore Park, down near McLain State Park:


February 1971 (Minolta SRT-101)

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Well it also works with a salmon ladder if available, talking about hydro power winky smile
And you get more jacuzzi feeling. smile

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/video/30242646-lilian-7...

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Is the fog horn still there?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Don't know. It's been a few years since I was there. However, if all goes well this year, we'll be in the Houghton area in late July and early August. Michigan Tech is planning to restart their summer youth program for pre-college students and our #4 granddaughter has signed-up for one of the the week-long programs (in her case she's taking 'Human Physiology'). She's currently a sophomore in Texas and she was planning to go last year but it was canceled. The school is working to get it back in place this summer. She wants to go next year as well, which would be her last to qualify (you can't have graduated). The plan is to drive to Texas, pick her up and drive to Michigan. At the end of the week, our son and his wife plan to join us and they will take her back and we'll stay as my 50-year college reunion is scheduled the first weekend in August.

Anyway, it's all conditioned on the virus having been at least controlled enough that the program comes-off as planned.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Michigan Tech. is a gem of a school in my opinion. It isn't so research focused to water down the curriculum with unnecessary material. If I were to describe it in a sentence, I would describe it as "one of the best engineering schools for people not wanting to go into academia" or "an A level engineering school for B level students." Its power program is well known around Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa. Occasionally, I bump into Mich. Tech power grads in Texas but it is rare. I think they might be the only program in the U.S. with an official program for electric drive trains for cars. They have one of the few remaining EV-1's on campus.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fisch... more unbridled capitalism:

https://theintercept.com/2021/03/18/epa-pollution-...

Texas seems to be ripe, for the picking...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Tech has the opposite reputation among Michiganders. Its generally considered a token degree for the children of wealthy Detroiters who want away from their parents and aren't allowed to leave the state, which IME fits the general population of their grads that I have met. Houghton is fun but visiting can be a weird experience, it and Traverse City (another small college town) are definitely straight out of the west coast with large populations of hipsters and a very un-MI vibe.

EV development/technology is a staple of most every major university and many community colleges stateside today, its largely displaced traditional ICE courses IME.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

DIK the definition of capitalism, unbridled or otherwise, is not, as you appear to imply, "any immoral or criminal activity".

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

Yes. You keep trying to wrap capitalism into any environmental issue when you don't to try hard to find environmental issues in any type of ownership of production or market function.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Because it's largely responsible...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think socialists and communists are equally skilled at damaging the environment, but since there are no shareholders that you can single out, your only alternative is to blame all the people, so politically that doesn't look great. Its easy to blame the shareholders. However it isn't the shareholders fault, most of them want better environment and have little control over what CEO do anyway. We are thereby forced to blame those "shareholders" that have enough influence on the boards to be green. And who are they ... those guys on Wall Street ... THE CAPITALISTS that do anything they want in cooperation with the CEO and boards, so everybody gets BIG BONUSES. Works for me.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

3
Self interest and negligence towards the rest of society is this issue. It is pretty evident that this can exist regardless of the political/economic structure of a nation.

Unbridled capitalism is the form of political economy that champions putting self interest first and with minimal regulations to prevent harming the greater society.

The US embraces unbridled capitalism much more than most OECD countries. The are better ways forward but US democracy has been corrupted to benefit the needs of the 1% over the vast majority.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

This 'unbridled capitalisms' in this thread is just a mask of 'not enough environmentalism'. 'Unbridled capitalism' is as vague and cliche as 'crippling socialism'.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Trying to get back to the technical part of this discussion.

Unfortunately, I can not come into ERCOT's website so the only information I have is from second sources.

We have found that ERCOT did end up in a very difficult situation due to previous decisions outside there control.

But something I have seen and thought about that could have made the situation better is that at 7:51 PM on February 14, ERCOT got ok to exceed the emission levels if they went to Energy Emergency Alert 2 or EEA 3.

According to NERC's regulations, EOP-002-3.1 what is written only "guidelines"

Energy Deficient Entity foresees or has implemented procedures up to, but excluding, interruption of firm load commitments. When time permits, these procedures may include, but are not limited to:

Whether ERCOT has agreed to follow this or not, I do not know.

It also seems that their own guidelines are a bit different according depending on where you look.

Emergency Alerts
ERCOT - Emergency Alert Level 1
Level 1: The first EEA level is Conservation Needed.
ERCOT issues this alert when operating reserves drop below a target threshold.
This level puts providers on notice to take preliminary measures to curb demand before the situation worsens.

ERCOT - Emergency Alert Level 2
Level 2: If conditions worsen, ERCOT will next issue an EEA Level 2 – Conservation Critical.
At this level, providers are permitted to reduce their power load by interrupting supply to large commercial and industrial accounts.
The contracts these clients sign stipulate that such measures may be necessary in an emergency.
https://magicvalley.coop/ercot/

There is no mention of reserve levels must be below a curtain level before alerts can be issued and in their own checklist they are only written as comments.

EEA1 are when operating reserves drop below 2,300 MW.
EEA2, the operating reserves are less than, 1,750 MW

Regardless, it is not possible to write rules in stone for situations like this, because the variables are infinite.

What could then have been done differently.

If they had chosen to issue EEA 1 and EEA 2 already during the day instead of waiting until 00.12 and 01.07 15 Feb, they would have had access to more energy.
The EEA3 come at 01.20 15 Feb
And possibly the nuclear power plant would not have tripped.

I do not know if I read anywhere what caused this?



https://georgetown.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/1/...

During the day, there had been reports that gas wells had stopped working.
They should reasonably have had access to sufficiently good weather reports 24 hours ahead to have known that it would be colder.
So in my opinion they hade the input data to se this coming.

It was only 1 hour and 8 minutes between EEA 1 and EEA 3
So why did they wait to perform EEA 1 and 2 and not issue them earlier?

They did not have enough routine to realize what was going to happen?
No one hade the guts to take the decision to go outside the guidelines?
They did not want to make the decision to shut down certain industries?
They toke a chance, that they would make it until the evening peak for households would go down after midnight?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It is possible that the rapid rise of alert level occurred because something that ERCOT did not expect to happen did happen sometime between level 2 (providers are permitted to reduce power load by interrupting supplies to commercial and industrial users) and level 3 alerts. I can easily imagine that was the same time when some gas producing and processing facilities went dark. It was reported that at least some of these facilities were not considered to be critical parts of the infrastructure making it possible to curtail their power supply. Oops!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It might be so, Oooppsss ponder

But that does not explain why they didn't go to EEA 1 at 08.00 and EEA 2 at 09.00 Feb 14, then they would have hade the possibility to call in more power over emission rates and hade more of there own left to use.
And hade bought them self more time to handle the situation.
They would even have hade time to realize that this Oppss !! hade happened and done something about it, if there was an Opppss.

All this EEA:s are there to never get to EEA 3 so with the knowledge of more cold weather, already freezing gas wells, more power needed for heat, it should have been an easy decision.

How musch it would have helped in the end I do not know, since it is not easy to find any numbers of how much power would have been taken offline at the EEA 2 alert and it only hade a duration of 13 minutes before EEA 3 came.
So how the guidelines for when alerts are to be issued is to narrow.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I've seen estimates that over 10MW of gas fired generation was lost. Probably a lot more. 20?

I'm still trying to get gas production numbers. They have not been published in any detail yet that I know of.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44,

The amount of generation lost would be around 30-40 GW. I am assuming you meant GW and MW. Your number might be actual generators that tripped out.

Redsnake,

The amount of additional reserve capacity called up during EEA steps is around 2.8 GW and is meant for frequency excursions and not systemic failure that are amounting to 30-40 GW in lost capacity. The deficit would be that minus whatever was voluntarily shed which would still be a lot. It would be like putting a band aid on a severed arm. There is be no system in the world that is designed from a capacity point of view that has 40+% on hand reserve. Responsive Reserve is to be able to come online in 30 minutes or less and would have been all online normally before EEA 3, load shed. When the report comes out, it is very likely that those operating the grid knew this was all coming because they train for it but it was all too late to do anything about it and all you can do is try to limit the impact with mitigations.

http://www.ercot.com/content/wcm/lists/219692/EEA_...

http://www.ercot.com/content/wcm/key_documents_lis...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fischstabchen
As I wrote earlier I can't get in to ERCOTs home page sad

Best Regard A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I know our company has a critical service rate, for customers that need a higher service level, like data centers, and such. But it has a cost that we pass on to customers.
However, there are other customers that refuse to pay for that higher service level, and they don't get it, but they complain about every little blink.

So I would believe that gas producers would not want to self identify as critical because they do not want to be charged for that. Or to add on site backup.
Also gas production tends to be in rural areas, which has more outages anyway.

Besides if you are only getting market rates for your product, why go the extra mile to make it better?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It would appear beneficial to the electric company to consider their fuel supply critical and perhaps not charge extra for it, given that it is to their benefit too. If I was the gas co and had to pay extra so I could deliver to the electric co, I'd include that charge in their bill, or maybe just report an insulation failure on their delivery line.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Do you actually believe every gas producer has a gas line directly to there customer? Most gas producers may not know who their customers are. They sell into the market, and some marketer will sell a block, or part of the gas to the highest bidder at that time.

The same with the electric utility, they have no idea where the gas comes from, who is selling. They buy a block from this producer, and another block from that producer.

There maybe some exceptions for long term contracts, but then again, the contracted gas may come from several different fields, and not include the whole field. Again, the gas producer may not know all the customers.

In the middle between the producer and the buyer, is the plant that blends the gas, and removes things, and then there is the pipeline company.

So the freeze proofing is of all of these.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I said gas company, not gas producer. The gas company, local distribution company, LDC, the ones with the pipes connecting the gas to the gen building. Many large quantity gas consuming companies buy directly from producers, as do LDC's, bypassing the middlemen gas brokers entirely, but ... that was not my point. The LDC's must be considered as the most critical part of the gas supply chain, because there are many producers, but (usually) only one LDC that brings gas to the building.

Even if you buy directly from a producer, the pipeline transmission companies virtually never deliver that same gas to the customers that bought it. In fact there not even need be a connection from a gas producer's well to the end user at all. Gas is not like oil. Oil can vary considerably from field to field. Gas, all pipeline quality gas, is CH4. If you live in California, you can buy gas from a Gulf of Mexico producer who connects to a Williams/Transco pipeline going to NYC. Transco will do a like for like swap with El Paso Gas Transmission Company, who takes a different producer's gas from west Texas to Southern California and dumps that into Pacific gas and Electric and you actually burn west Texas gas. There may be slight differences in Btu content per ft3, but that isn't a problem, because those deals are done and metered in mmBtus, not ft3. You see, its really just a virtual gas world. Heck, you can probably even buy gas storage space in Minnesota.

I know one guy that's working on a block chain method to record the deals and pay in bitcoins.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Actually, there is significant variation in pipeline gas composition, but it is of little consequence for most applications, reciprocating engines being the exception. If the raw gas is way off nominal, it can be blended with inert gas to bring it close to nominal. As an extreme example, look up propane-air peak shaving. Another useful concept to look up is the Wobbe Index.
If you're not aware of the reason reciprocating engines are sensitive to gas composition, look up Methane Number, and Gas Engine Knock.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Unless you're talking about gathering lines, no, there isn't significant variation in gas composition hence the common reference to "pipeline quality" - 85MN all day long! Making a recip run on pipeline gas is dead simple bc of it, calibrating for wet field or digester gas OTOH can be tricky by comparison.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I've had 40% nitrogen coming out of gas wells. Oil, water, sand, condensate, butane, propane, natural gasoline to asphaltene, H2S, CO2 ... I could filter and pour some Colombian oil directly into a diesel generator. Otherwise its kind of like opening up Mother Nature's 100MM Yr old lower intestines.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I agree that at the well head there is a good deal of differences in the gas, and I don't know what you call the plants, we called them helium plants, as that is one of the things they take out of raw gas. I also know they take out CO2. But the output of those plants should be pipeline gas.

Yes I have seen an air-propane plant for a gas distribution system, to be used when gas is in short supply. But there are concerns about this output being used for input for a CNG truck facility.

Still, most electric power plants don't have a storage of fuel, like a coal plant would. Maybe a few days burn, but that's it. It is just a fuel volume thing that limits the storage.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There are z lot of helium wells in the tx panhandle and a special pipeline system to collect it. It is skme kind of gov program. They used to be part of a Navy strategic project to fill derrigibles during WWII or something. You have to capture helium from wells. Any that gets to the surface by itself floats off to near outer space.

Large scale power gen just takes a lot of gas, so they save big money if they dont build cryogenic tanks. You just can't keep enough on hand unless it is liquefied. Large high pressure tanks at normal temperatures are just too expensive. Cool it off and it shrinks 600 times.

The best solution can be to build multiple pipelines to the generators. The last project I did in the States (1990) was to design and built a second direct pipeline connection, plant control and metering station to Austin City Power Co's Decker Creek Station, just east of Austin. It seems to have kept it running.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Or use a dual fuel unit like gas/fuel oil. Then again, a unit like that of about 150 MW will burn through a tanker truck of fuel in half an hour. Likely need to keep a large tank of fuel, and maybe a rail head to import the secondary fuel.
It is also possible to have a dual fueled combined cycle plant, which is more efficient.

Although, I have recently seen articles on burning ammonia as a fuel. Sort of bad as it would need to be without water, and a leak would be a big problem.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Of course that works, but more expensive. 2 fuel handling systems, and as you note, large oil tank, or two, extra space for heat radiation, dikes, road access, foam fire protection, emission controls, blanketing system, more drainage water, oily water tank, surface drainage to larger holding pond, spill prevention and control plans, lighting, maintenance of all above .. you see where that goes.
Obvious why gas fuel is the choice. Better to ask a pipeline company to build you a new pipeline and pay for it gas rate payment plan. One from the north, one from the south. Problem (mostly) solved.

But do not cut off power to the gas companies.
There are a few anhydrous ammonia pipelines.
And hydrogen pipelines might be in the works some day.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yes, a secondary fuel is a big problem, but that fuel storage is one of the differences of a coal plant and a gas plant. By saying a gas plant is cheaper to build and operate, without including the fuel storage aspect, it is not a true compair of equals. Same with solar and wind.
To me it looks like what so many people are doing. By saying it's green and ignoring the stability and fuel storage aspects, it is creating a problem, and this is just a wake up call.

If gas is the way we are going, then we need more storage, and better heat tracing, and better identifying the interoperability of it with electric.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It isn't a comparison of equals. Just the opposite. You have to utilise the different characteristics of each type to their maximum advantage when putting together your system. That's why differences exist. Each type performs a specific function. Caterpillar makes 15 different dozer models. The only thing similar is their color. An airline can't function with a fleet only comprised of 747s, nor an electrical grid with just nukes. But that's been known for thousands of years. Romans and Carthege had infrantry, archers, artillary, horse cavalry, camels and elephants. The elephants had a harder time than horses crossing the Alps. Camels did better than horses in the Sahara. Elephants made a terrifying charge, but then ran off in their own panic in all directions. System design is just like rock, paper, scissors. viking did well in cold climates. gorgeoussnake

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

If gas is the way we are going, then we need more storage, and better heat tracing, and better identifying the interoperability of it with electric.

Or do we just accept that customers can live without power for a few days upon occasion? ;)

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

With time... the situation is likely to get worse... these once in a lifetime events are becoming more frequent.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

One could choose to buy their own generator, if they have a place to install it. I suppose it just depends on how much someone values having 3 days a year of UPS. Personally I'd take a lesson from Ted; drain the pipes and go to Cancun for the week.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Sounds great, as long as you are not a board member at ERCOT.

Yes a few day outage each year is not a big deal, unless you are the news media. So what is expected? What is allowed? Who should provide for the backup?

And likely we will hear crickets on those questions.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Yes a few day outage each year is not a big deal)


Texas alone had over 100 fatalities attributed to this cold snap... what's a few days, anyway...

From one news source:
"Harris County, home to Houston, reported 10 deaths from hypothermia and more than 600 cases of carbon monoxide poisoning as of Friday. Harris County Judge Lina Hidalgo shared the update on Twitter, writing, “This was a man-made disaster that has cut lives short. When the dust settles, people deserve answers and accountability.”"

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thank you for reminding us that the vulnerable suffered as usual. Not everyone can do a runner and head out to Cancun. There were many people that went without power in freezing houses for well more than 1 day.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If the plan is for the power to be out for a few days, then there is a huge amount of seemingly minor items to deal with. Can we tolerate all of the traffic lights being dark, or do they need alternate power?

During Isabel (Aug 2003), in tidewater VA critical traffic lights had 5 or 10 kW gasoline generators connected to them. There was some evaporation, so it was not too long before all of the generators were chained to lightpoles.

Less critical traffic lights just went dark, and we struggled with that. Only about 10% of the fuel stations could pump gasoline.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

Texas alone had over 100 fatalities attributed to this cold snap....Harris County, home to Houston, reported 10 deaths from hypothermia and more than 600 cases of carbon monoxide poisoning...

Attributing both of those to a cold snap is a pretty big stretch. I'd love to hear specific cases that didn't involve much larger risk factors. Critical infrastructure is well protected stateside, and at the end of the day 15F isnt frigid weather.

Traffic lights being out isn't uncommon, and often an improvement.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Harris County, home to Houston, reported 10 deaths from hypothermia.

"Attributing both of those to a cold snap is a pretty big stretch".
So, they just happened to be walking past Ben & Jerry's when the store exploded covering them in 10T of freezing ice cream?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I wonder about this with gas as heating, how does it work?
We have virtually no such systems here.
Is it waterborne heating or is it air ??

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Mostly air I believe because in the summer you pump cold air and in the winter warm air.

Domestic AC is rare in Northern Europe so we tend to use water filled radiators as the standard or underfloor heating using water.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

In its basic form it works off a 230v switch off a thermostat which when closed activates the gas burner and circulation pumps.

More advanced systems can have multiple zones which can selectively off or on.

The latest tech has a management system to get the burner into condensing mode then regulate the flow temp for a specific heat input.

It's very common in UK and basically anywhere that they have domestic gas mains.

I can fit an aux burner to my heatpump system that will fire up when gas is the cheapest method of heating the house or water basically if I need a feed of over 45 Deg c. I haven't got one though but there is connections to the hydraulic disconnect tank to cater for it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

With this system you heat water or?
With a water based system it should be the same principle as burning, wood, wood pellets, oil or having a electric heater.
I saw some air heating system but then it stil was connected with water more like a heat exchanger.
Or are there systems that only heats air?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The cheapest and so the most common furnace in Canada uses a hot gas to air heat exchanger.
A thermo-couple in the pilot light generates enough power to activate the main gas valve.
A low voltage thermostat swwithes the gas valve on and off.
A second temperature switch starts the fan when the heat exchanger comes up to a suitable temperature.
This also provides a cool down period after the gas flame is off.
As well. it incorporates an over-temperature safety lock-out.
The hot air is ducted to various rooms an the house.
When whole house A/C is installed, an evaporater is installed in one of the main air ducts and the furnace fan and the existing ducting is used for A/C.
There are newer, more sophisticated systems, but there is an installed base of millions of this type of furnace.
My current home has a high efficiency furnace that still uses the same basic control system.

In addition to deaths by hypothermia, I imagine that even more people avoided hypothermia by buying portable propane heaters and died from CO instead of hypothermia.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Yea, our son in Katy (about 25 miles West of Houston), his house is quite large (he had four daughters, but only three are still living at home) and they have two furnace/AC systems, one for the ground floor and one for the second floor.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Anna, the most common system in the UK has a combustion-gas to water heat exchanger and pumps water through that and into a two pipe heating system that runs through the building. Wall-mounted "Radiators" in each room are connected between the feed and return pipes and act as water to room air heat exchangers.

The burner is fan-blown and the primary heat exchanger is so efficient that it condenses moisture out of the combustion gas which has to be collected and periodically discharged to a dedicated drain.

The central heating loop is maintained at constant pressure using a bladder accumulator.

Finally, to provide domestic hot water, a water to water heat exchanger is fitted within the boiler casing between the feed and return lines, with a diverter valve (which controls whether the circulation pump draws its suction from the central heating return pipe, or from the domestic hot water heat exchanger.

All components - combustion chamber, circ pump, heat exchangers, accumulator, gas and diverter valves, condensate syphon and control electronics are integrated within the boiler casing. The only external components are the radiators and (usually) a thermostat. Required services are gas, electricity and cold water (for recharging the accumulator, and to heat to provide domestic hot water).

A.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thanks everyone.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

So, they just happened to be walking past Ben & Jerry's when the store exploded covering them in 10T of freezing ice cream?

At 15F humans dont become hypothermic without severe outside influences like mass consumption of alcohol or drugs, immersion in water, or being extremely elderly/frail. Like all mammals, the human body generates a lot of heat. Trap a minimal amount of it and you will survive without damage.

Homes stateside have been required to have functional CO detectors for decades. Products producing CO have been required to have a large number of warnings in both the operating instructions and on the product for decades. I seriously doubt most of the homes affected dropped below 50F during this incident, uncomfortable to some but hardly life-threatening.

JMO but this has become another political/media-fueled illogical witch hunt. Hanlon's razor - never attribute to malice that best explained by stupidity.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Less unfounded opinions would be great.

may also include low blood sugar, anorexia, and advanced age

In the UK, 28,354 cases of hypothermia were treated in 2012–13 – an increase of 25% from the previous year.[35] Some cases of hypothermia death, as well as other preventable deaths, happen because poor people cannot easily afford to keep warm. Rising fuel bills have increased the numbers who have difficulty paying for adequate heating in the UK. Some pensioners and disabled people are at risk because they do not work and cannot easily leave their homes.[clarification needed] Better heat insulation can help.[36][37][38]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

@1503-44: In excess of 100 fatalities is still a whole bunch more than should be tolerated... whatever the reason/excuse... like a 3rd world country!

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Agree. I dont think I implied otherwise. I was contending CWB1's implication that death by hypothermia was fake news or was only possible for "massive drug addicts", febel elders and alcoholics, which suggests that it is perfectly OK for us to totally ignore the facts as reported, or justify their death as some kind of personally inflicted suicide, without a shread of evidence.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Hopefully that box went to Davy Jones's locker.
But yes, ignoring the facts is what got this thread started.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

thanks for the clarification.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thanks for the opportunity to do so.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

thanks... feel a lot better... I'm one of those feeble elders, but in a safer place.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Ditto. Take care to stay that way. Coincidently, my power went off for 4h last night, but it was 18°C, so not being a massive drug addict and I only had one scotch, it was ... Just dark. Lit some candles and all was well, until the lights woke me up at 2am and the neighbours dogs started barking. puppypuppypuppy

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

I was contending CWB1's implication that death by hypothermia was fake news or was only possible for "massive drug addicts", febel elders and alcoholics...

Sorry if commonly known scientific facts disagree with your point, but yes - without extreme outside influencers like those mentioned it is literally impossible for a human to become hypothermic at 15F. IOW, blaming the lack of power for hypothermic deaths is indeed a stretch and at this point an extremely dishonest one. But please, continue to misconstrue my posts.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The old folk start dropping dead when the temp goes below -3 in Scotland with a huge step increase.

From mil experience I sort agree that most adults should be able to survive it with suitable clothing and no other adverse conditions eg they got there clothes wet.

Although that said I find dealing with -20 in the baltics much easier to deal with than 0 degs in Scotland. Humidity and wind play a huge part. We did have a few go down with it on army exercises but they tended to be the marathon runners. In fact the medic that used to dish out the most abuse to us fatties was usually the first to get pulled into the meat wagon. He was running the London marathon finishing in double digit placement.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I had an architect buddy that thought that -5C in Toronto was colder than -40C in the west...because it's a damp cold. He realised the error of his ways when exposed to real -40C in Regina... -40C is a lot colder anywhere, than 0C in Scotland... and as far as the drug addicts, alcoholics, old codgers, etc... they're still people that sufferend. There was also an 84 year old woman and a 7 year old child... not likely addicts...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I agree -40 is a different ball game.

Windchill plays a huge part as well.

It tends to be Siberian high calm wind when it's that cold here.

The availability and possession of suitable clothing is also a factor. We just have them in the house and come Dec the kids are automatically putting there balaclava on and snowsuits.

I am sure you also get a mind set dealing with it if it happens every year. Texans I doubt have the automatic habits for dealing with cold or protecting their kids.

We used to stick our kid out in his pram to sleep at lunchtime in -15. It's deemed normal. If you did that in Scotland the kid would be taken into care.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (CWB1)

At 15F humans dont become hypothermic without severe outside influences like mass consumption of alcohol or drugs, immersion in water, or being extremely elderly/frail.

But you forgot this.

Hypothermia can also occur in connection with malnutrition, fatigue, brain damage, and in impaired ability to produce hormone from the thyroid gland or adrenal glands.
Older people and small children are more sensitive as they have less compensation opportunities and are therefore more easily exposed to hypothermia.

Normally in this situations you are outside and can go inside where it is warm.
If you are inside and its already 15F, -10 C and you do not have any means to heat yourself, except your own energi depot, it is different.

Greater risk of frostbite
A limited reinstatement of flow to the extremities leads to greater risk of frostbite, but reduces the risk of cooling down, and vice versa.
The body’s main defence against cooling down is shivering, and how effectively we shiver is also individual.
Some of the research subjects who bathe in the 15-degree water shiver violently.
This causes the muscles to release energy, providing warmth and keeping the body temperature up.
But others do not shiver at all and are unprotected against the cold.
Their body temperature falls quickly. After 20–25 minutes, it can be as low as 35 degrees.
Violent – or effective – shiverers can remain in the 15-degree water for longer, some of them for more than an hour and a half, while fundamentally maintaining their body temperature.


https://ki.se/en/research/a-cool-treatment-saves-t...

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

CWB1 "misconstrue my posts"
I quoted you directly.
CWB1 "Commonly understood facts"
Perhaps, in which case you should have no difficulty proving "Commonly understood facts".
You have not disproven the 10 deaths in Harris County due to hypothermia, except by saying "Commonly understood facts" makes that impossible.
Let's just say you presented your best argument and now ... we can put a pin in that topic.



RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

What's happening these days in regards to companies going bust and them trying to dig themselves out of a hole?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There were reports of carbon monoxide deaths in Texas from people running there cars with the door closed. And I don't believe that most cars have warning labels about this (well maybe in the owners manual, which no one reads, except maybe engineers and lawyers).

But that should have been common since to not do that. Pity the lack of education.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The one that used to do for people in the UK was old paraffin/kerosene heaters that lived in the garages and never touched for years.

People didn't know that you had to run them outside until they got up to temp and wick right length before taking them inside.

Most just lighted them inside and didn't know a sooty orange flame was looking death in the eye.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

A lot of the carbon monoxide cases were caused by people bringing fuel heating into the residence... not all carbon monoxide from vehicles... it also appears the education system is failing, too.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Maybe that's too much like .... science.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I wouldn't be too critical the locals round me gas themselves regularly with CO and they all burn wood for heating in the house and saunas plus have crappy old soviet paraffin burners. And that's people that have been grown and bred with that sort of danger. If they can do it then anyone can.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think one part of this, that haven't been discussed much is the way the transmission companies that where told to the rolling blackouts actually did them.
Here the transmission company would not leave household without power so long that the indoor temperature became so low that freezing would emerge.
It would bee done in time intervals depending on the outside temperature.
That's why it's called rolling blackouts..
I also wonder how much could have been avoided if the shedding/ rolling blackouts hadn't started in the middle of the night ponder

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Rolling blackouts were successful in some areas, but failed in others.

Alistair, I assume you saw the "Its Fake Biden Snow" video originated in TX.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

All I can say to everyone who was blacked out, is blame government, that is who failed you, and will do it again.

Over or under regulation, or just inept government, and those people should be the ones who should be on the hook (federal and local).



RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (I wouldn't be too critical the locals round me gas themselves regularly with CO and they all burn wood for heating)


So, your education system is failing, too... one of my few regrets was an opportunity to study at the U of Southampton... I passed on it because I had never been out of this country and was nervous.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Actually Estonia's education system is quiet good. I went through the Scottish and we had gas central heating with radiators. Although I must admit the physical science side of things is quiet lacking. And don't get me started on the anti vax situation here.

The main reason is modern building methods being combined with traditional practises.

The houses were self ventilating with plenty of ways for air to get in. They now wrap and seal them with double glazed windows. The old stoves pull over 5 m3 of air. The new regulation that are coming in is that all new fires have external air pipes into the burn area.

They are basically sweeping the country just now with the fire departments and fire masters inspecting every house ensuring that CO alarms are present, combustible fuel is 1.5 meters away from fire brick work and there is ventilation and the chimneys are sealed. The brother in law failed his and has a 6 month fix notice. I passed and I think I was the only onw in the area to do so first inspection.

You have to remember that anyone over the age of 25 was brought up under soviet system and its maybe only 15 years the buildings have been sealed. 50 year old gets their house done up and first winter sticks the fire on when its -20 outside, wife shuts everything up she can that produces a cold draught and they don't wake up the next morning.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I remember, as a kid, waking up and putting coal into the old furnace/boiler... and how chilly it was first thing in the morning... and the old cast iron radiators... they had two temperatures... cold, and really hot.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

They have wood fired communal heating systems where every one in a block takes turns for a day feeding the burner in the the old soviet apartment blocks. That then gets cycled into a colossal buffer tank and then the apartment lines go off that. They really are scary devices the old soviet burners the new ones you can put a pellet feeder onto them. The wood that they put through them is pretty nasty some of it. Each apartment owner has to provide so many m3 of it every winter and they go through 3-4 m3 of it a day in Feb. The buffer tank sits around 70 deg C the top floor is lucky to see 30 deg feed temp to the radiators.

The locals all say I am crazy heating my place with electricity, But a m3 of wood is 35 euro the local houses even sealed go through about 20 m3 of it a winter. Most of them go and get there own wood from the forest which is a weeks worth of labour this time of year. 2 days chopping them down and getting them back to the farm then 2 days cutting it and splitting then 1 day moving piles of wood around so the next winters is in the wood shed and the new stuff is in the shack for drying. I heated my place this year for 130 euro.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Free workout winky smile

Here people with there own forest land usually burns wood, otherwise pellets is also usual.
My cousin put in a wood fired pan with automatic charge 1,5 meter loggs, most of them have accumulator tanks.
I am not shore many put this in at newbuilds.
My dear CH:s brother have a firm making wood pellets, he has the maschins in the old barn, they hade milk cows before.

I think most people puts in geothermal heat pump with water system, big apartment buildings usually have district heating.

I was looking for some statistics for carbon monoxide poisoning, but it seems it is so unusual here that there are not any ?
200 cases per year but that includes , people taking there life's in cars, people getting burn inside burning houses, some work-related accident, someone cleaning a tank without good ventilation the only real carbon monoxide poisoning apart from that seems to be boat owners that heat there boats gas.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think from other conversations we have had you have had the regulation about requiring a direct pipe from outside to feed air to fires for a number of years,

They suffer brain drain a lot here with the intelligent engineering types and medics going abroad very quickly after graduating if not studying abroad anyway. There seems to be a group of them with 10-15 years international experience filtering back when their kids hit school age. And its not just UK after Brexit although the grid seems to have picked up 2 ex UK national grid network engineers.

They are getting there and improving regulation or at least compliance by inspection. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Alistair)

I think from other conversations we have had you have had the regulation about requiring a direct pipe from outside to feed air to fires for a number of years.
Yes we have when making new installations.
New regulations are largely never retroactive.
They only take effect if you do something new or in the event of major changes.
I think a lot of them comes from the EU, but then it's a bit up to the countries how quickly and in what way things should be implemented.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The fire master stuff on leaking chimneys won't force them to put a outside pipe in. But if the chimney is leaking they will have to fix it. If they can't run a lining pipe down it and it needs rebuilt then that's a new installation and the pipe will need to go in I believe.

The fire reg stuff with CO alarms etc is also compulsory like it or not.

It takes a while for things to filter through and usually someone in an area being brave enough to go for it.

I put a heat exchanger ventilation system linked to the heat pump. Much abuse by the locals and shaking of heads. Brother in law now has one sitting in his barn to go in his house. And two others in the area have them going in. It took two years of us not having any fungus growth or wood discolouring in the corners of rooms for them to decide it might be a good idea. Its quiet amusing seeing them visiting they all have a set way of looking round houses. I can't understand what they are on about but then "ventilation" gets mentioned and then my mrs shows them our service room with the unit it and you just know its been added to the nagging list for the bloke. The Brother in law wants to use the ventilation part of the chimney as the exhaust exit which I am not very sure about. I told him to stick two pipes through the roof void to either end of the house. But I have learned there is no point telling them. In fact its better if you don't because then there is a chance they will do it the way you think it should be done. If you tell them then they put max effort into doing it another way.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Well they always do a chimney pressure test if you put in or change your wood burner/chimney, in my case they only come and sweep the chimney every three years since it's only used during the summer month, the others must do it every year.
I can even get permission to chimney sweep myself if I apply.
I think the chimney sweeper makes a ocular inspection every time he comes.
They are quite good at it, I remember ones I was looking for buying a house then I called the master chimney sweeper in the area and asked him about the condition of the chimney he knew exactly what condition it was, saying the old man who lived there was burning the fire to hot almost gott a chimney burn smile

Here they fix bad chimneys with inside pipes, linings or slip casting.

If there is unused pipes in the chimney, they can be used as ventilation shafts here if it is done right.

Well I can understand there concern in the beginning here they made the houses super airtight and the ventilation didn't keep up and there was a lot of problems before they got right, but now there is a lo info so tit would not be a problem.

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Here many people heat with wood, and several have gas fireplaces (with a glass face), and fewer people use wood pellets.

In Texas, very few people have a fireplace or wood or pellet stove. Modern homes there just don't have them.
Even here, if people have any other heat (other than electric space heater or main heat), it is likely to be a gas fireplace, controlled by electric.
Because propane is costly at times, most people in my area use a wood stove, or pellet stove. But the pellet stove can be costly to operate because of the cost of the pellets ($5-6 per 40lb bag).

That said I burn scrap wood mostly. I get it from a place that charges people to dump tree limbs, and dirt. Some of those tree limbs include the whole tree, which can dry over the summer.
I also collect dead fall, and cut dead trees from my land.

People is the city, if they have a fire place buy the $5 bundles, maybe half hours worth.

But CO detectors are also required, but require batteries.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

My ones are mains powered with battery backup. And they are all inter linked so if the cellar goes off so does the upstairs bedrooms one go off and it tells you where the problem is. If the CO goes off it triggers the ventilation system to pump 450m3 into the house.

The fire inspector was most impressed with it when he tested it with that tapper thing they burn. Works out at 40 bucks a year over the 10 year life span of them.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I tried the AC powered CO detectors and they can alarm for high humidity. I don't use it anymore.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I use NEST and haven't had an issue with them apart from one of them sucked some dust in and I cleaned it out with compressed air and tested again afterwards.

But we don't have a problem with high humidity where I am.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

My mother tests the one in the summerhouse with boiling water winky smile
The one I got at home goes of for the slightest thing cant se neither smoke or steam both goes on batterie.
But it beeps for quite sometime before it stops working.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
I grew-up in Northern Michigan and until I was five years old, we had no electricity nor running water. We heated our house with a fireplace and a wood-fired cook stove in the kitchen. My father rigged-up some lights connected to a couple of truck batteries that he recharged from his truck every few days. We had three light bulbs, one in my parents bedroom, one in the kitchen and one in the privy, out back. My mother was lucky, at least her water pump was inside the house in the kitchen. She also had a gasoline powered Maytag washing machine and an old Army surplus sound-powered, hand cranked telephone connected to my grandparent's house next door (we were the elites in the neighborhood).

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

How was CO gas taught in your youth John?

Thinking back I only got switched on to it while a teenager in the army.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

smile It's sound a bit like our summerhouse when I was little we made the dishes with water from the Boltic sea and there was a hand pumped fresh water well beside the road where we could get drinking water or we hade to take it with us from town, and the toilet was in the outhouse no water, no light. smile
But we hade electricity. it was in the early 70's.

John with all your stories it's sound like you are a 100 years old winky smile
I appreciate you telling them.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
No, only 73, but there are places in America where people are still living very low-tech lives. At least I was born in a Hospital, my wife, who's 74, was born in a log cabin:


March 1970 (Minolta SRT-101)

And up until about 10 or 15 years ago, it was still being used by various family members as a hunting cabin or sometimes when someone just needed a place to live for awhile. However, it finally had to be taken down as the current cousin who owns the property, and has her own modern day house on that same piece of land, was forced by her insurance company to render the building unusable as they considered it a safety hazard and wouldn't write her liability insurance:


June 2019 (Sony a6000)

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

That reminds me that I saw a headline (I did not read it as I did not have time), about some community that was condeming homes that were off the grid. It sounded believable for some zellots, but I thought how narrow minded public officels are at times. That many homes in the past had no electric service, and the requirements for GFCI, are demanding parsite loads.

I guess we can't go back.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
In the case of this cabin, the only thing keeping it from NOT collapsing was that one of the cousins had run about a quarter inch diameter steel cable anchored to one wall and tied to the opposite one with a big turnbuckle in the middle to keep tension on the cables. It set up near the ceiling so you could walk under it. Finally on day, either the cable broke or one of the anchor points let loose and it half fell down by itself. It only took a few good pulls with the 4X4 pickup to do the rest.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Then it was time.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

I quoted you directly...You have not disproven the 10 deaths in Harris County due to hypothermia...

I never attempted to disprove that the deaths were due to hypothermia, nor did I mention alcoholism or addiction. I simply stated three very common causes of hypothermia at those temps.

0-32F is often referred to as a "safe cold" bc the risk of damaging oneself is pretty low, usually the biggest concerns are staying dry and hydrated. Many folks enjoy camping in it, and the various parks' services usually dont require cold-weather training or permits until below 0F when risk increases significantly. I worked wilderness rescue for almost a decade and really enjoy being out in that westher. When I lived in Alaska the local Cub Scouts actually had a merit badge for camping at -40F which IIRC required them to be out ten nights.

Bottom line for me is that we will always have folks both unprepared for and unwilling to react to minor inconveniences, and those inconveniences are simply a fact of life.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Like the power outage in DC?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

CWB1
I am not shore how you can expect people in Texas to be prepared for this minor inconveniences?
When power / gas companies in Texas are both unprepared and unwilling to do something about this "minor inconveniences" because they only happens every hundred years.

I do not think dying is a minor inconvenience. sad
And these inconveniences are obviously only a fact of life in some places, here they are not.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Question: Why is it that people who do not prepare for bad things to happen, expect that other people have prepared for them?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Those in the 'know' should be prepared for this and you should not have the huge loss of life... you'd expect this from a third world country, not the US.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Because they are not engineers, so they have to trust the engineers that design stuff for them to do their job right. Most people think having a candle and a box of matches, or a flashlight is all they'll need when the lights go out, but I'll bet they don't even have those handy, if at all and the flashlight battery is dead.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Well this is how my day started. I had several e-mails asking why the power went off yesterday.
Then I saw this news story.


Gee I wonder why.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I can only answer for how I look at it.

The short answer is we do not have to.

The long.
It has to do with, what is considered the norm where you live.
But above all because I expect to get what I ordered and paid for.
If I have paid for an electrical connection and someone who is to supply electricity, it is included in the contract that they must do it 100%.
The same thing with water or heat if they can not deliver in the usual way, they can drive out tanks with water.
Deliveries are made 99.9% of the time and if the deliveries are not made due to maintenance or something else, they tell you in advance so that you can prepare for it.
Those who have chosen to have their own wells, power supply or heating or to be completely without, they are prepared for it in the way necessary.

Here it is not acceptable from a societal perspective either, if things do not work as it should or people die because of it.
We also pay a lot of taxes here, so we expect to get "what we pay for" that and it is better that people work and pay taxes than, that they are at home and try to take care of all of this "minor inconveniences".

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

Question: Why is it that people who do not prepare for bad things to happen, expect that other people have prepared for them?

This is part of participation in civil society. Life is social. Chances are I won't cook my last meal and the last time my *ss is wiped, before I die, it won't be by me. Quite similar to my first meal and it's result. Edit: I'll have cooked a lot and wiped a lot in between /edit. If I'm gonna submit to the violent hegemony of the state, it should at least be for an equitable distribution of social goods instead of as fodder for capitalists.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (but I'll bet they don't even have those handy, if at all and the flashlight battery is dead.)


It comes from having uneducated politicians and civil servants... seems to be the norm, these days.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

I am not shore how you can expect people in Texas to be prepared for this minor inconveniences?
If I have paid for an electrical connection and someone who is to supply electricity, it is included in the contract that they must do it 100%....We also pay a lot of taxes here, so we expect to get "what we pay for"

You pay roughly double what we do stateside for most everything, resulting in half the net worth from age 18-death and a low standard of living that most Americans would never settle for. I'd probably expect 110% availability if I still lived in the EU but to each their own and I very happily don't. I'll gladly take a day or three inconvenience on occasion for the cost savings which allows me to lead a much better life. If I end up in a pinch I have many welcoming friends nearby who wont be so afflicted plus ready sources of power/heat/food at any public building, shelter, grocery, most gas stations, and many employers including my own. Having lived in the third world I can assure you that stateside this truly was a minor inconvenience at worst, and Dik's comment somewhere between truly terrible and simply ignorant.

Quote:

Question: Why is it that people who do not prepare for bad things to happen, expect that other people have prepared for them?

Because the US education system today is run by the poorly educated and controlled by those with a vested interest in not teaching the concept of Americanism? Because many are spoiled rotten by some combination of modern technology, parents who gave them too easy of a life, or other factors? Take your pick, we can probably list 1M reasons.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

and you have half a million Covid deaths to show for it, and for most people, a quality of life that is non-existant.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

You need to check the Covid-19 deaths per capita and vaccine rollouts of the U.S. vs Europe before you drag the pandemic into your regular anti-U.S. and anti-capitalism rants.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Fischstabchen
WorldoMeter
World Deaths per Million Population.
368
US Deaths per Million Population.
1711
Canada Deaths per Million Population.
607
CWB1

Quote (CWB1)

If I end up in a pinch I have many welcoming friends nearby who wont be so afflicted plus ready sources of power/heat/food at any public building, shelter, grocery, most gas stations, and many employers including my own.
?????
<s>Why didn't that work for the folks in Texas?</s>

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Low standard of living in Sweden!


Even in the mankie parts of Stockholm you don't see anything like the issues you see in the UK never mind USA.

Families get to claim back huge % of tax in Sweden.

It's in your face tax not chipping away expenses so disposable income is quiet good actually. No education or health expenses to worry about.

I say this as a Brit that's spent some time there and know a little bit about the tax system. I used to be very sceptical about the scandi system but when you actually see it in practice they actually get quite good value for what they pay. More so than we do in the UK.





RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (into your regular anti-U.S. and anti-capitalism rants.)


Not rants... based on factual information. I'm not anti-American... I have a great respect for some Americans... the US and Canada, both have warts, I acknowledge ours... your's are bigger...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Canada Deaths per Million Population.
607)

and our large number is a disgrace.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thats an interesting statistic... Covid Deaths per Capita.
Thats nothing more than a bad attempt to justify a massive loss of life.
A statistic best not used for bragging. Especially when medical experts collectively believe it should have been far, far lower.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There is no 'justification' attached to that statistic. It just illustrates the reality of the pandemic. What do you judge to be a better way of showing how the different countries have fared?

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-d...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

That's why I used over half a million... puts it into perspective... If you look at the per capita carbon output of countries (the real measure)... you'll also get a rude awakening... With the exception of a few Middle East countries, Canada's up near the top and China is down to about #15...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yes, China's carbon output per capita is only about half that of Canada, but do you want to exchange your standard of living for theirs? That "puts it into perspective".

As to Covid, New Zealand and Australia are fortunate in having oceans all around. Try to come to Australia, and you will see what I mean.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I wouldn't put to much into the time line of the virus. I am in a country that basically was very lightly hit last year.

Currently we are number 1 world wide.

The game isn't over with the whole dealt with the virus the best pissing match.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If you can compete in happiness, well I don't know..

Happiest country



Best Regard A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It's pretty easy to see that geographic influences play a huge role.

Along with culture.

NZ is basically end of the line with international transport. And a relatively small set of islands which are easy to isolate. Same with Iceland.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

AH... Iceland did the right thing... "Over the ensuing nine months, deCODE and Iceland’s Directorate of Health, the government agency that oversees health-care services, worked hand-in-hand, sharing ideas, data, laboratory space and staff. The high-powered partnership, coupled with Iceland’s diminutive size, has put the country in the enviable position of knowing practically every move the virus has made. The teams have tracked the health of every person who has tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, sequenced the genetic material of each viral isolate and screened more than half of the island’s 368,000 residents for infection." Not bad for a diminuitive country...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If you have every been there or know any Icelanders you wouldn't be surprised.

They don't breed them stupid.

They had a webcam on the last Macdonald's meal served on the island. They turned it off after 15 years. It still looked like the day it was served.

And you think Swedish tax is bad... It ain't a patch on Iceland



RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

3

Quote (cranky108)

Why is it that people who do not prepare for bad things to happen, expect that other people have prepared for them?
I think this thing with Iceland and many Northern countries is actually what cranky is asking for.
They prepare and are prepared because they need to, to survive.
The difference is just that it isn't a single person who does it, it's a community of people, which also includes the government and state.
No government and state without people..

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

How "well" one country is doing compared to another. Right. UAE has the highest number of astronauts PER CAPITA and the highest number of nuclear reactors PER CAPITA, so I guess that makes them the greatest nuclear technologists and explorers of outer space. Yes, very impressive statistics.

You want to see how each country is doing, then stack the bodies in a pile in their capital city.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Not part of the argument. Just a resource to see how things are going locally or somewhere that your going to have to go.

I use this data source.

https://covid19-country-overviews.ecdc.europa.eu/#...

If the graph is heading up you have issues.

Using Estonia as an example where I live. Everything was fine until November. Now its just gone crazy. Iceland is increasing again. As soon as this Kent variant gets into the population all bets are off.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I guess my point about statistics is you have to compare values that are in some way quantify what you want to discover. For example, I guess you want to compare how "well" one country is doing in relation to another. Income "Per capita" will tell you how much money the average person has, but that's all it will tell you. It won't tell you how well they are doing, because countries that have high stats there, also have high suicides ... per capita.

To compare C19 effectiveness, you have to chose some variable that is a measure of efficiency of the medical system in that regard. A country's annual medical expenditures might do that. A low
$ to C19 death count, could point to its effectiveness, whereas a high ratio would indicate poor efficiency. Deaths per capita could be telling you that the population lives in relative isolation where the opportunity for a virus to spread would be extremely limited. In that regard the population of a country acts just like any ole random number and is essentially meaningless in describing how well anything is actually going. At best it might tell me if I should avoid going to a particular country, because a high deaths per capita stat certainly describes some kind of danger level.

Thats a good resource ... but keep in mind that testing rate is not standard, so some data may be skewed. Those that do not test have a very low and artificial incidence of cases.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503-44,

To quote Spock about your analogy, "I find that Highly Illogical". But anyway, the statistics are not about countries doing "well", but rather how poorly they are doing.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Take the reciprocal of the number and you get the doing poorly perspective.

I gave you a star because I prefer to think that's a 3' L typo. 2thumbsup

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I rather think it is "all about me". Not myself personally, but how people see the world.
The attitude that the world owes me, is part of the problem. If you believe you can not make a mistake, you don't need to plan for bad things, and if they happen, it is the fault of someone else.

People need to question more, and think about the answers. What if my car were to break down? What if I had no electric? What if the kids had no school for a day?
But people are more interested in with gas heating I would not have wood ash to clean. An electric stove looks so much nicer. The "look" is the important part, because the salesman said it was.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Its honestly not the way the culture is or the way they think. And it goes from the very top to the very bottom. They do plan for all sorts of events, you have to when its -20 C outside. Breaking down in a car can mean death.

But to get to the point that a rather large percentage of the population want to remove themselves from the public utilities because they can't be trusted is rather sad.



RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I am not sure that the statistics on US covid deaths are reliable, as the testing protocol (PCR) is reportedly unreliable ( overestimating infections) and there is an enormous financial incentive for the US hospitals to claim every death is caused by Covid 19. At some point in the future it will likely be admitted that the entire "crisis" was inaccurately reported and measured.


"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
I was not aware that the storm that caused all the problem with power outages and gas disruption actually had a name, 'Winter Storm Uri'. Note that I searched this entire thread (not the links just what was posted) and I never found any mention of 'Uri', but that was name given to it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_13%E2%80%93...

Anyway, I only mention this because I read that name for the first time in the item below, which covers a situation which brings into perspective how wide spread the storm was and how much damage resulted from it, some which never got a lot of airtime. Now I must note that it's very possible that the owners of this apartment complex in Galveston are simply taking advantage of the situation to evict the tenants and then bring down the building and redevelop the property:

Fertitta-owned Landry's closing Fort Crockett Apartments in Galveston after winter storm damages

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2021/04/0...

For the record, our oldest son works for Tillman Fertitta, who BTW, is originally from Galveston. Our son is a mid-level executive responsible for the offerings of one of Landry's national brand restaurant groups.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Well a bit ironic that the name Uri is hebrew for "God is my light" or "My light, My flame"

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Waross,

Now you are being very disingenuous. Almost every country in the west with pockets of high population densities saw very similar fatality rates per capita. Comparing it to the rest of the world which doesn't have the means to test or is very rural is not an apples to apples comparison. Everyone in europe who wants to talk about how mouth breathers in the U.S. can't be bothered with a mask and how it is all their fault really are overlooking the fact that even what was done in most of europe wasn't close to enough. Wearing a mask is preventative but the cat has been out of the bag for awhile. None of this is going to end at this point with how it has spread without large scale vaccination. Most of this back patting is just people political justification and defense for lockdowns or done with the intent to cover up that their countries vaccination programs are struggling badly with production or sourcing the vaccine. It is really similar with how the spanish flu was blamed on spain when every other country had the same exact problem and needed for political reasons to push ownership of the problem onto someone else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_de...



RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The 1918 flue had a hugely disruptive impact here. The history has become a bit obscured by the passage of time. My father would have been just entering grade school at the time, so the oral history was a bit thin.

The origin of the Spanish flue is still not clear.

When the Spanish flu hit area By Jim Wood The Register Harold Beckley, West Virginia May 2, 2009 Updated Jul 29, 2014

Attached, The Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard, Naval Training
Station Hampton Roads and the Norfolk Naval Hospital John G.M. Sharp

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Numbers from MacroTrends show the US as 83% urban and Canada as 80% urban.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
I assume of course that this is with respect to the population distribution.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

FacEngrPE,

I find the theory that it came out of Kansas interesting but not conclusive. At best, it seems like you could guess where it came from based on movement of people, which was much less at the time. One thing that i think people forget is that several epidemics or outbreaks have gone through asia in the last 100 years. It would be easy to conflate the symptoms of something else that spread in asia with
 
the spanish flu.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Well, it was called the 'swine flu' and a lot of hogs are raised in Kansas, maybe not as many as Iowa, but still a major producer.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (The origin of the Spanish flue is still not clear.)


"It has never been clear, however, where this pandemic began. Since influenza is an endemic disease, not simply an epidemic one, it is impossible to answer this question with absolute certainty. Nonetheless, in seven years of work on a history of the pandemic, this author conducted an extensive survey of contemporary medical and lay literature searching for epidemiological evidence – the only evidence available. That review suggests that the most likely site of origin was Haskell County, Kansas, an isolated and sparsely populated county in the southwest corner of the state, in January 1918 [1]. If this hypothesis is correct, it has public policy implications."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC34038...

Our numbers (Canadian) are lower because we are a less populated country and somewhat isolated... our numbers are so high because Trudeau's government did not close things down and treat it as a pandemic... our numbers could have been a lot lower. For current status, catch the link (our worst province used to be below their 40th state):

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Comparing population cemters of two jurisdictions, one of which has ten times the population of the other may be misleading.
Yes, Canada does have a smaller population than the US. Canada's population may be even more centered in large urbam areas than the US
That chart may be interpreted to indicate that Canada's population is also concentrated in large urban centers.
Do you realise that Canada's population is concentrated along a narrow strip adjacent to the Canada/US border?
Furthermore, the population is not evenly distributed along that strip but concentrated in large cities with population densities similar to the large cities in the US.
There may be a word for such misinterpretation of graphic data.
Would that word be disingenuous?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

The current thinking is that it wasn't Kansas due to it seeming to have been in europe and china in 1917. They don't think it came from China due to it didn't seem to track to places that chinese migrant works traveled. After troops returned from WW1, it was everywhere.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The source may never be determined... just appears highly likley... that it was taken by troups from Kansas to Europe...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

It was only identified in the U.S., which wasn't where the Great War was being fought.

Here is an article indicating a mysterious fatal respiratory disease among english troops in northern france in 1917.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/...

https://www.statnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/1...

Here is an article in the Lancet of doctors in 1919 claiming to have seen the exact same disease in France in 1917.

"But once again, and even at the risk of becoming monotonously insistent, we would emphasise our view that in essentials the influenzopneumococcal purulent bronchitis that we and others described in 1916 and 1917 is fundamentally the same condition as the " influenzal pneumonia" of this present
pandemic, and that it is only a matter of degree whether there is "purulent bronchitis," "capillary bronchitis," " broncho-pneumonia "-disseminated in some cases,lobar in distribution in others, multiple abscesses in the lungs, or even gangrene of the lungs. "

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?title=A%...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Hi Dik.
For every accepted narrative, someone can always find a contrary view, that often downplays known and widely accepted evidence.
Let's take a time out from this discussion.
I'll buy you one in the Pub.
Yours

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

the great flu pandemic of 1917-1919 was unusual in some respects. Older people , who were born prior to 1872, were immune to its effects, as they were "innoculated" in 1872 by the great horse flu pandemic of 1872. In 1872, all horses in the USA and canada were immobilized, either dying within 1 week or severely immobilized, by a flu, that likely originated by an avian flu carried by the migration of canadian geese. It spread throughout the USA exactly along the rail corridors where horses were transported by trains. It was so severe that horse drawn trolley cars and fire engines were pulled by immigrants for 1 yr , until the horse population recovered. The US cavalry's war against the Indians was halted for 1 yr as both sides didn't want to fight without horses. The analysis of the flu specimens from 1917 show it was based on the 1872 flu.

The 1917 great war effort included shipping over 1 million horses from the USA to europe on ships, and close to 50% of those horses died of "shipping fever", another name for a contagious horse flu. The 1917 flu likely originated in Kansas USA , and was distributed to US troops at a kansas camp and to europe via the horse shipments.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

here is the scientific presentation for the above comments re: 1918 flu based on 1872 horse flu

<www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Klc3DPdtk>; titled: genesis of the 1918 spanish influenza epidemic




"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I clicked here to post something and thought I was in the wrong thread... that's quite a coronavirus sidetrack. Not that I'm complaining, it's a bit of an omnipresent subject these days, and I have been known to pursue a tangent or two (cough... thousand) of my own on eng-tips.

Some lawmakers in Texas are trying to pin a penalty on renewables: The Texas House of Representatives on Thursday was scheduled to discuss a bill that would force wind and solar plants to pay for grid services essential to keeping supply and demand in balance.

There is of course a bit of pushback.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

...only in Texas.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It didn't use to be such a stupid place back when NASA, Del, General Dynamics, Bell Helicopter, LTV, Compaq, TI, ExxonMobil, GulfChevron, Shell, Bechtel and Texaco were running the show. What happened?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Electricpete,

I think this is the bill.

https://capitol.texas.gov/search/DocViewer.aspx?ID...

There isn't anything in it that is outrageous. New interconnecting generation hunts and pecks around the grid to find places to interconnect that will require the least amount of system upgrade, which they will have to pay. What this bill is doing is placing wind and solar on a more similar footing to other generation by forcing them to pay for improvement related to them being intermittents generation. I think that this is the result of two things, a concerning with how the grid can handle emergencies with less dispatchable generation and conventional generation and other groups getting tired of socialized expenses related to renewables. Both points are valid in my opinion. Dispatchable generation is required during events and with the need for more winterization investment, it is understandable that plants not want to be on unevening footing or for plants financially struggling to be pushed into early retirement.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I had assumed that renewables were already paying via the price structure.
I had assumed that interruptible power would sell for less than firm power.
If renewable is sold at the same price as firm power, then the costs may be justified.
If renewable is already priced at a discount, it sounds like double dipping.
Follow the money.
Discouraging renewable energy will be good for the oil and gas industry.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Waross,

Renewables aren't priced at a discount. State and federal subsidies add up to over a $20 a MWH and the market usually closes out at $30 a MWH in ERCOT. The industry could stand on its own legs in some regions with a lot of wind or sun but in a lot of places it wouldn't work without the subsidy or state mandates. It isn't a new thing for the government to subsidize an industry. Nuclear received heavy subsidies as the industry was maturing and cheap fuel due to nuclear arms reduction. Both wind and solar have matured but you wouldn't see a lot of solar or wind farms without the government pushing them.

I don't know the specifics exactly but wind and solar is given preference when sold into the market due to it being non-dispatchable. Most power from conventional plants is sold by contract before the plants are ever built to reduce risk. I suspect that this is done with most wind and solar as well. One utility, I worked for in Oklahoma was buying out everything from a couple of wind farms in the area for $50 a MWH. That looked like a reasonable rate to reduce the amount of power they needed to buy from other entities before natural gas became extremely cheap.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

Low standard of living in Sweden!
Families get to claim back huge % of tax in Sweden.
It's in your face tax not chipping away expenses so disposable income is quiet good actually. No education or health expenses to worry about.

Sweden, like most of the EU is silly expensive compared to the US with very high taxes and high cost of living. Not sure why you seem to think Americans worry over education or healthcare costs, but those are both relatively cheap and of little concern here. An undergrad is roughly equivalent to a modest car in cost, easily paid off by most paying students within 2-3 years of graduation and there's many ways to earn a free degree besides. Many like my wife actually enjoy collecting degrees as a cheap hobby, last I knew she was up to three over the last decade. Healthcare is similar. As employers cover the bulk of the cost, employee healthcare is fairly cheap and comprehensive vs elsewhere. Last I knew the average family of four paid the equivalent of their cell phone bill monthly, with many paying much less. The wife and I pay $70, which covers us entirely from cosmetics like her Invisalign orthadonture to primary care to Medi-flights home from overseas.

Quote:

If I end up in a pinch I have many welcoming friends nearby who wont be so afflicted plus ready sources of power/heat/food at any public building, shelter, grocery, most gas stations, and many employers including my own.

Quote:

Why didn't that work for the folks in Texas?

Why do search and rescue organizations all over the US recover a few thousand umprepared & lost hikers every year? Why do so many traffic accidents occur in parking lots? Why do so many motorcyclists get killed every year bc they failed to negotiate a turn or offramp? Simple answer to all - bc people do dumb things. That's not to be unkind but the simple truth of the matter....and FWIW, after a pothole nearly took me off my bike at 80mph years ago, I'm convinced I will die in a similarly silly manner.

As to COVID, I struggle with those discussions due to the simple lack of logic even among smart folks. For some reason when politics and emotion get involved, even engineers tend to forget standard scientific method and rules for causality. The true COVID tragedy stateside was the fact that we allowed a handful of politicians and quacks to inflate the statistics for petty political use. Sadly, we will never know how many truly died of COVID bc we tossed out decades of clinical practice and thus severely polluted the available data. Sorry not sorry, but suggesting the elderly, folks with AIDS, or others with severely compromised immune systems died of COVID is like saying folks in Texas died en-masse due to lack of power - utter nonsense devoid of both science and common sense.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I'm not sure if you mentioned when you last where in Sweden?
But as a simple comparison, I came up with these numbers.
To make a complet comparison would be several years of work.
The us numbers are from https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living and the Swedish from https://statsskuld.se/



If you have the same net salary after tax in Sweden as in US and have one child in school the average school fee is almost the same as you pay in tax in Sweden.
Then you still have free medical care, income compensation if you are sick, 480 days payed parental leave per child, 5 weeks payed vacation every year, etc.

I also noticed that there was Mortgage Interest Rate in Percentages (%), Yearly, for 20 Years Fixed-Rate at 4,08%
In Sweden right now you can't get a 20 year fixed-rate the highest seems to be 10 year and the lowest seems to 1,53% right now.

The average pris for a Bottle of Wine (Mid-Range 12 USD in the US.
Not shore what's considered Mid-range and is it 75cl ?
My favorit US wines are SomeZin 7,3 USD and 7 Deadly Zins 16 USD (75 cl).

Here you can get a mobil subscription with surf 5GB for 12 $ a month, calls, SMS free, no binding period.
My internet connection 1000-Mbit 16 $/month your average is 65.69 $

And when it comes to food the only items I can see that seems to be cheaper in the US are milk, beef, chicken fillets, bananas and lettuce.
Somethings are actually much cheaper in Sweden.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Is going to university in Sweden expensive? In Spain I think it costs about 3000 € per year.

If you are self employed in the US, you will pay a very lot of money for health insurance. My brother pays over $1500 /mo. I have the same coverage as he, but pay $150/mo in Spain and no hastles from the ins co. If the doc says I am sick, they pay. I dont even see the hospital bills.

What about car insurance costs? US is expensive there too. Most places do not have effective public transportation, if any, so there is usually no choice. There can be high taxes for car license fees. The only good thing is gasoline is cheap.

God help you if you need a US lawyer.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There is a registration fee and student union fee every semester but it is under 200$ for a year if your a EU citizen.

Its about 10 000 euro if your not a eu citizen per year.

Only reason why I know is a mate has a kid studying there. And there was some debate about what he was going to pay after the 1st of Jan.

I think all the scandi countries are basically no fee.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If you are a Swede or EU member the cost is zero.
If not there is a 88 EUR, 105 USD registration fee, and the study fee depends on university and program it varies.

If you are self employed you have free health care, (everyone has) but you only get sick leave pay the same way an employed person do, relative to the amount that you have taken out as salary from the company.

We have Road (Car) tax it can be everything from 4 EUR (my car winky smile ) usually 10 up to 2600 EUR.
They just remade the tax, the more pollution the higher tax.
Insurance max 800 EUR for full coverage.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think your income numbers must be converted, because I don't know of many engineers that make over $3M.
Besides, public schools for K-12 are free in most places (not very good but free).

Yes, my employer pays a bigger part of my health insurance. Car license fees are not too bad.
But with paying for university classes, my employer will pay for some of them for me. For my daughter, I can choose which school she goes to (we picked a good engineering school).

But this has nothing to do with Texas wind power.

I still think this is a political problem, that the residences will have to pay for. Not having a backup is a cost that you don't have to pay everyday (but should). That's the lure of saving money.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (you have free health care,)


Interesting that Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the US...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thanks cranky, you are totally correct smile no millions sad
It's averages salary, in US no particular occupational group.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It's not just a Texas issue when a large % of the power can't be trusted and is limited to real power only.

I must admit I benefit. I have the grid on standby when ever I need it for 3 euro a month

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

My last trip to Sweden would've been 2016 when I was still working in Munich too much.

Comparing costs is indeed difficult. K-12 public education stateside is funded by real estate property taxes and thus shared by the majority of folks regardless if they have children in school or not. Its the same funds that generally cover local street maintenance, garbage collection, parks maintenance etc, which costs families ~$2k/year. College is ~$8k annually for full time students. 30 year fixed rate mortgages are common here, above 4% would've been a first-time homebuyer a decade ago, most folks are getting ~2% interest rates now. Homes under $100k cost are still common and I've had homes with monthly mortgage payments under $300, which makes for easy entry into the rental business. Cell and internet vary quite a lot bc they tend to be packaged with television and other services. My folks pay ~$15/month for both as senior citizens, my wife and I are ~$75/month for two phones and home internet. Health insurance for the self-employed does indeed have some silly statistics surrounding it but only bc ignorance skews things greatly. Bought individually yes, its pricy, however bought at a group discount as a member of a professional organization or union brings the cost down to be comparable with any employer / group-based policy. Usually if you ask the folks complaining about healthcare costs about professional membership you get a rant about professional organizations being a waste of money, and they are clueless about the healthcare or other benefits. I've BTDT as have many family members and thought $350/month was high enough. I'm not a fan of many organizations yet cannot argue the good they do for members in one way or another and have no issue with taking advantage for significant savings. Auto insurance is similar, many loudmouths never read much less understand their policy and willingly get ripped off, skewing statistics. As an avid car guy with ~$100k in my small collection, the most I have paid for insurance was ~$200/month, and that was bc until last year MI required us to carry silly amounts of health coverage for others. Prior to moving here I was paying ~$900 annually.

Looking at the big picture, the most expensive thing stateside is ignorance, same as anywhere. :P In general I would say that many folks want too much, have no idea what most things should cost, and end up seriously overpaying. Unfortunately they tend to be a loud minority. My wife and I grew up poor and have no interest in being so again, nor in having to work through old age. We live very well on 40% of my income, pay cash for everything but houses, do our own taxes and most of our home/vehicle/other repairs, read/research expenses and shop around, and are more than halfway to being millionaires despite getting a late start on savings eleven years ago. I honestly don't believe I would be nearly as well off if I'd lived anywhere overseas.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

It's not just a Texas issue when a large % of the power can't be trusted and is limited to real power only.

What availability rate do you need for the grid to be "trusted?" Detroit here is the worst area I've lived in stateside for power, various sections lose 1-3 days of power every year. I find it a mild annoyance but not a huge deal, traffic jams and other occurrences impact life more.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

See that, even in an ex soviet country is exceptionally bad.

Last time there was a power cut in our area for more than 12 hours was 4 years ago. We maybe get 1 cut a year of over 8 hours and less then 10 a year of up to 4 hours.

For me its trusted if you don't have to worry that all the food in your freezer is going to go rotten. Not very scientific I know but that gives a general tolerance.

Oh if they ever do ruin everything in my freezer I just have to take pictures of the old stuff and pics of the new and a receipt and I will get the cash back off the grid. Also if the grid spikes out voltage and blows up your router of other electronics you can claim for that getting fixed as well. Again its not happened to me yet because I have put over voltage protection etc in my place because a few people in the area have had dead electronics. And looking at the log on my solar inverter things are not that stable to be honest.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Here in SoCal, at least since Enron is no longer in the picture, the worst thing that we can expect is to have our AC cycled more than once of twice a week during the hotter parts of Summer, late August - early September.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

See John that would be deemed trusted to me.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If you compare that with your apartment in Riga do you have other expectations then?
I agree trusted is as you say, not having to worry about food being destroyed or water systems frozen.
Anything that gives you a extra cost.
For me living in an apartment in "town" we might 4-5 power outages per year of total sum of max 1-2 hours.
Same thing here if they are to long you get deduction on price and you can claim coverage for destroyed things, no layers involved.

Best regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Never had an unexpected one in Riga. They have sometimes warned a week in advance the power will be out for a certain period and they have been true to there word. Normally they seem to have a 2 hour buffer and it goes on early. We have the dam near the city though which provides the power.

They are also very good at scheduling things at night.

The farm is on the end of a old Soviet line which apparently is in the league of dental floss as power transmission levels go. It goes down occasionally when there is adverse weather. I think the contract states they have 12 hours in the summer and 18 in the winter before you get a rebate. Never had one yet in the 4 years I have owned it.

I don't really expect it to have anywhere near the same level of trusted. We have wood fire. A wood fueled hot plate stove and oven A 150 ltr pressure tank on the water well which I can power the pump using a car. A old school well with a bucket. And freezer that's good for 36 hours -35 to -10 Deg C. If it was -10 outside I would just unplug the freezer and pull it outside. We could easily last a week if not 2 in -30 Deg C.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Feels a little backwards, should have been 12 hour in the winter and 18 in the summer.. winky smile

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I can only presume it's to get hardware on site. As far as I can tell they have local linesmen who have chainsaws and that sort of level of stuff. Then there is 8 depo's spread around the country basically there is 1 within an hour's drive of every where. And they hold snow ploughs as well and diggers etc and transformer stock and cable.

When the transformer down the road blew up the linesman was there in 30 mins. And the lorry with a new one and hiab turned up an hour half later all at 3 am in a howling gale. Took an hour to get the old one out and new one connected. So that group of houses was only out for 3 hours which I was pretty impressed with to be honest.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yes it was.
I think that it is still a bit of the "Russian" way of doing it.
Here they would not have done something like that due to the risks involved in a middle of a storm.
If you compare it with UK or Scotland is there a big difference?

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The farm yes. More often.

Scotland it was extremely rare to get a cut. I can remember 2 in my childhood and university days.

Both of them though we're road vehicles taking power lines out.

The linesman was safe enough he had a highviz on and safety glasses.. And some state of the art insulated shoes which looked suspiciously like Chinese fake croc saddles. I was a tad concerned his feet were going to get frost bitten.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

It is written into the Cuban constitution that healthcare be provided by the government sort of how in communist Russia, emphasis was placed on supplying bread, sausage, and vodka to the public. My brother's wife was from communist Hungary and if a politician couldn't provide cheap bread, sausage, and vodka they were voted out. It is kind of funny how some governments try to suss out the cheapest solutions to keep people content.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Sorry Fisch... I'm looking at the end result... just seems more civilised.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Dik,

It is. One of the greatest failures in my opinion is the lack of universal healthcare. If Hillary had gotten elected, I think she could have and would finalize it and fix it since she and her husband were proponents of it 30 years ago. I hope this pandemic in the least puts a lot of class issues back onto the table. The unrest between parties and ethnic groups I believe has more to do with misplaced blame of class issues than real ideological differences. When things faulter, one side blames the other rather than the build up of systemic problems relating to the reduction in taxation of corporations and the rich.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It hasn't really been mentioned this side of the pond. But how has the hospital system held up in the US?

Even with universal healthcare countries had huge issues with demand way way outstripping supply both of beds and manpower. Mate that work in that line are saying that there will be a huge lump of additional deaths coming up in the next 18 months because all the normal stuff they catch and treat has been missed for the last year. He is a gynaecologist consultant but reckons pretty much every flavour of specialisation is pretty much up there on emergency care and respiratory these days because they have all been doing it. As he puts it if a tractotomy needs put in on a patent on his table he won't be calling for another surgeon to come in and do it after the last year which he would have done 18 months ago.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Stateside we didn't see any problems, tho no doubt hysterics here will claim the sky fell. During our six week shutdown elective procedures were cancelled so utilization rates dropped drastically, forcing many empty hospitals to close and layoff staff for a few weeks this time last April. The absurdity of the situation vs the political/media claims actually helped us return to normalcy very quickly in May and remain open/restriction free the last year despite the political muppets demanding otherwise. There was a small surge of patients needing elective work during May but doctors stateside tend to keep easy hours so the surge was easily absorbed by a small bit of OT and schedules were normal by mid-June. That said, in a population of 325M there's going to be hysterics hurting themselves and my wife and her colleagues do see insanity every few weeks - patients walking in with absurd levels of PPE, demanding their waiting room's IR camera be sanitized, and real health issues both mental and physical from folks remaining shut-in too long or avoiding the doc. Thankfully for her those are 1/1k and usually more of a laugh than a concern.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

2
CWB1,

I am one of those fools that had "way too much ppe". I bought a bunch of N95 and P100 filters, mask, and tyvek suits back in January and February. I loaded up on foodstock as well. I saw what was happening in China and Italy and it looked very bad. I don't regret any of it. After a few months, I just started ordering everything online instead. I haven't nor has my family gotten the virus. The average bill I saw for someone needing medical care was $40,000 and that is not counting longterm issues. People who got spanish flu and recovered had a 10 year shorter lifespan. COVID-19 I suspect is going to be something doctors ask about for awhile. My wife and I are now fully vaccinated so I don't regret being over cautious. I just write 2020 off as a shitty year.

The issues surrounding COVID-19 I believe are more economic than health related to most. Food lines in Houston were over a mile long. My brother said the same thing was happening in Minnesota. There was a huge treatment facility built for over flow after seeing what happened in Italy but fortunately that was never needed. A lot of medivacs flew into the medical district in Houston when it was bad. There were some counties that were very badly affected and had to send people to wherever. Latinos and african americans were disproportionately affected. When it was really bad, ambulances would get sent from hospital to hospital and sometimes just sat for hours waiting to find a place that would take their patient. It is a real tragedy that HIPPA laws prevented footage from inside hospitals from being released to show the general public how bad the situation was. I think the mindset of the politicians in Texas is that the situation is under control if the hospitals still have beds and are not completely overrun.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thanks, Fisch... it was politicised, and handled wrong...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Out of our 2 family group of 5 adults and 4 kids they all got it and tested positive but I tested negative 3 times over 2 weeks.

One of them is still suffering from 7 weeks ago after being taken out for a week with it. All the kids it was 24h of fever and headaches and coughing and then back out in the snow again. My kid was welded to me for 18 hours and i still didn't get it. I suspect I had it last year in Jan but quite how the Mrs and kid didn't get it then i don't know. Although due to my work environment i have a pretty bullet proof immune system and I am O neg where as everyone else is A+ or AB+ which apparently is an advantage.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It goes through a family so quick. My brother in laws kid got it from day care, and then the whole family. Some friends, 3 cases from boyfriend to girlfriend to her friend. My wife gave one of them a ride and is sure she'd have it if she wasn't vaccinated.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

same with my lot.

A driver who delivers food to all the local council units went to visit family up north of a weekend. Felt a bit unwell on Monday while doing his delivery's went home lunch tue tested positive on Wed.

So it came home with the kids from school
.

And by Friday about 70% of the locals had come down with it. And by Monday the few of us that didn't get it and those in isolation were the only ones left.

There was a convoy of vans going to the old folks homes. They are now mothballing 2 out of 5 of them due to a rapid decrease in demand...

Stupid tossers now though have started wearing masks and washing there hands which they didn't before. And the most vocal anti vax has shut her mouth after I said she didn't need it now she had got the bug because so nobody cares if she is going to refuse to take it. She can't have it anyway for another 3 months.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (moon161)

My wife gave one of them a ride and is sure she'd have it if she wasn't vaccinated.
One of the early cases at work was a guy that went till and from work with three others he also worked with, in the same car.
Non of them got infected.
So nothing is for sure.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Daughter of my ex died in Houston 11 Jan, 39yrs. Blood pressure dropped to nothing in a few hours after a day of trying to get tested. For some unknown reason, no hospital room was readily available.

If you're not doing the smart things, then I hope you are lucky, very lucky.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If you're not doing smart things, you are making it dangerous for those who are...cry I check my BP, temperature and oxygen SAT, daily...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Uncontrolled hypertension is a comorbidity for Covid. But hypotension, never heard of that being an issue.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I would suggest that dead would be an example of hypotension...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
It appears that ERCOT is still skating on thin ice:

Texas Nearly Went Dark Because Officials Misjudged Weather

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/texas-nearly-went-d...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

spring is the best time for outages, due to low air conditioning loads and expected low heating demand. It looks like they got surprised by another cold spell. More late cold spells may be in the future due to the grand solar minimum; if the Thames freezes over, maybe Algor will have a stroke.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

In case anyone is wondering what a ex Soviet transformer setup looks like.

Here is the one that blew up that I was talking about.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

censored Don't know where to start, so I will just leave it at that. hairpull2

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote:

I am one of those fools that had "way too much pep"...After a few months, I just started ordering everything online instead. I haven't nor has my family gotten the virus. The average bill I saw for someone needing medical care was $40,000 and that is not counting longterm issues.

My prior post wasn't criticizing anyone for having a stash of PPE. I actually keep a half dozen N95s in my garage next to the nitrile gloves, respirator, and other safety gear for household and automotive projects bc its better safe than sorry on your health. I was simply commenting on the absurdity of walking into a doctor's office or hospital in a spacesuit after a year+ of normalcy and criticizing staff who treated COVID at its worst for not wearing much/any PPE.

As to the rest, I would recommend turning off or finding better media bc most of what you posted is nonsense. Stateside, in a few areas non-COVID patients were evacuated out of facilities that were expected to be hit hard but there was never actually lack of space for COVID patients, lack of PPE or ventilators, risk of side-effects, nor cost to patients for treatment or vaccines. We wasted trillions building medical and PPE/vent manufacturing that was never needed or used, and offsetting an economy needlessly shut down. There's also the potential future impact of the US govt having cried wolf last spring. If we have a legitimate epidemic in the near future then we're screwed as this winter's "second wave" proved that the public doesn't take shutdown orders seriously anymore nor can the govt enforce them.

If we'd like to discuss handling the concern badly, we could discuss the fact that much of Canada, Europe, and otherwise are still under govt restrictions of their basic human rights a year+ later. As an American, visiting is reminiscent of third-world dictatorships that I saw in the military.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Why are you talking about that here?

But, yes, the previous administration made a grand FU of all of it. You must have seen the Senator Jordan mouth on 100 round automatic fire fiasco. If restricting basic rights keeps the death tool below 600,000, then I'm OK with that. My rights finish when my actions affect my neighbors. The US is full of stories about restricting rights. The only real violation of my basic rights I ever experienced occured with the US Army draft system, but ask the Americans of Japanese descent about WWII. Need I say more. Furthermore I can grasp the concept that basic rights can be a dynamic situation that a bill of rights attached to a rather static constitutional document will never properly address all the time. Special times require special measures. You did not see anything at all about dictators restricting human rights. What you saw are people respecting the rights of other's just as much as they expect thier own rights to be respected by others. Don't confuse that with restriction of liberties and freedom. And don't go too far off the rails praising USA human rights. The USA is only the 25th most democratic country in the world and the USA still has much to learn about that. Look, the USA is all about respecting "MY, MY, MY", rights, nobody elses. Today the USA ranking is IMO almost unmeasureable when it comes to respecting the rights and liberties of others. Its a ME ME ME thing only.

Give it a rest.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Alistair_Heaton: Would love to see a schematic for that. Some of it makes perfect sense, and some of it is...different. But hey, as long as it works and it doesn't shock the livestock or people. :)

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

its apparently a spur off a HV delta supply.

Which is then radial off as star 400V.

There is a manual disconnect from the HV which I used with the help of a Makita 18V grinder to take the padlock off when it went on fire.

The consumer lines are a mixture of bare wire and 4 core insulated. The bare are scheduled to be replaced inside 2 years unless they fail before that.

And its scheduled to get a fence put round it. Although nobody or animals has died off setups like this in years in country.

I am a mechie and the guy that I asked is a very senior grid bloke and as such is way way below his pay grade.

Its due to be smart grid switched what ever that means but that will happen when they up grade the rest of the bare wire.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Alistair_Heaton: Thanks!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

No problem. I am interested now in what smart grid switched means and allows them to do.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Mostly marketing to make it easier to pass the cost of needed upgrades on to the customer.
The new equipment installed may fall short of the customer's imagination of what is a "Smart Grid".
In many situations, using someone else's imagination against themselves is very effective.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Nah the whole of the EU grid is going smart with power factor and load reduction and increase.

He is finding out if it's going to have IP over powerline for ripple receivers.

Plus you won't need a grinder to kill the HV line

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Everything will be considered "smart" compared to that. winky smile
Do not mean that it is unfunctional, only that it is "keep it simple". winky smile
I usually like keep it simple, but that has to many hazards. sad

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Well through the solar stuff I seem to have more knowledge than the grid bloke. He didn't have a clue that the grid could change the load factor output of the solar inverter or require it to decrease injection.

He is extremely interested. He is mid project for three condensers for the grid which are DC motors to produce reactive power. If he could get rid of one of them it would pay for a complete ripple system if he could get all the solar inverters to go to 0.8 PF injection inside 30 seconds.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

You know more about that stuff then me too. winky smile
At work we are obliged to keep the reactive load at a certain level.
So we use capacitor batteries on the large motor drives.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Power factor correction on the grid used to be by Synchronous condenser - actually a free spinning synchronous motor. It will make + or - vars depending on the excitation.

There now is whole range of devices used for var compensation under the general heading of "Flexible AC Transmission Systems" which is being marketed as a component of smart grid.
The reliable synchronous condenser is still in the mix, and is the only one that inherently supports system inertia. There are a few locations where generators in retired fossil power plants have been repurposed as synchronous condenser.

https://www.power-eng.com/coal/converting-existing...

Here is a listing of devices that all are used for VAR control. https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/offerings...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I find all quiet interesting.

Here they were 95% oil shale in 2010 and they have now got to 20% renewables. Most of which is inverters. Which can be centrally controlled if you have the infrastructure to do it.

They also have historical issues with the grid from Soviet times as you can see from the photo. For years the people running things were ex soviet trained power engineers with resultant issues with resisting change. A lot of them were involved with Chernobyl They are all retiring now and they are bring in younger western trained engineers who are looking to future proof the system instead of just applying a Band-Aid which was the old mindset.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Since we talked about the Nordstream II Pipeline somewhere up there, there is this update,

US call for sanctions against 20 EU companies starting to get hot. Merkel says Nordstream II is no worse than Nordstream I or the gas that comes from Russia across Ukraine or Turkey. IMO these sanctions have a real potential to severely piss off the EU. It might even force them to go their own way and develop an international Euro transaction system.

https://www.mail.com/int/business/markets/10731896...

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (and develop an international Euro transaction system.)


That could have some real interesting consequences for the US. The US ability to 'print money' is predicated on their being the de facto #1. If this were to change, to reiterate, this could have some real interesting consequences. One of the reasons Hussein was 'taken out' was the he wanted to change to the Euro... another one was that he wasn't nuclear...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I have been watching the Fortuna and the Akademik Cherskiy Both seem to have loads of supply vessels coming out of St Petersburg and Kaliningrad and they have been getting nearer each other over the past few wees since we talked about them.

Its reckon to have cost 11 billion. And its a bit unrealistic to think that they will write that off because the US doesn't like it.

I have seen estimates that gas will start flowing through it by end of August early September.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The EU started thinking about ways around the $ payment transfer system to supply Iran with humanitarian goods when Trump pulled out of the agreement. That's cooled off now. I think there was not a great lot of money involved, so it got put on the back burner. If it eventually happens, it will be a chicken in the $$$ armor.

Yes Dik, I have always thought it was € for oil that did Saadam in. It certainly was not his WMDs or involvement with the World Trade Center. What's left? Venezuela was going the same route and look what happened there. Coincidence? Right. Russia and China are not using $ on West-East Pipeline transactions as far as I know, so that was another IUD.

This pipeline is over $10B and several important EU gas grid companies have their future supply plans and big chips in the game. I dont think its going to blow over. Merkel just signaled it will become an issue. We can all thank Ted Cruz. The US will play into this stupidity long before they learn that it will do more damage to EU relations, actually benefitting Russian political goals far more than hindering them. But all of that is well known. The US leadership is not stupid and they know exactly what they want, so the collision course is set. The gas sales plum tree just looks too sweet. US gas exports are increasing quickly and US domestic gas prices are rising (or not falling with the warmer weather) in response. The US consumer is already starting to pay the price.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

If its not completed there is a legal minefield over who pays for it and several company's who are deemed to big to go bust and national security entity's will be basically bankrupted over night.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

And they'll still be getting Russian gas any way you look at it.

I suggested in one of the petroleum forum websites that Ted Cruz could arrange a US Gov buy out of NS2 from the Russians and then they could just close it down. 2thumbsup
But then I would imagine some opportunistic friend of Ted would simply wrestle it from gov hands and start transporting RusGas through it anyway.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

They would be more than happy with that.

They don't care where the money comes from as long as it goes into their pockets.

They already know that the gas will be a third of the price of what they can sell theirs for. As long as they can make the same profit by other means they will be happy enough.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Something is just wrong here. If the goal is to be carbon free, then why would you be building a gas pipeline? And if Russia wanted to turn it off, what choice would the EU have but to do what Russia wants?

If I were in the EU I might want to play it both ways. Buy some Russia gas, and buy some US gas, or look for something different.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think it's like to choose between three evils, nuclear power, coal or gas.
And gas won.
Russia has used that strategi before, trying to threaten to turn the gas of, mostly against earlier east states.
I think EU and Germany thinks they have more muscles to withstand things like that, but we will see.
It works both ways.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

You mean if they turn off the NS2 gas, it would be just like today?

Through 50 years including the worst part of the Cold War, the USSR kept all gas and oil pipelines open. Never one shut valve. Never. That shut down story is American Ted Cruz' hocus pocus, A complete urban myth. Russia turned off Ukraine's gas, because Ukraine did not pay their bills. If anyone has evidence of any other time that happened, please let me see it.

I will let the secret out of the bag. Russia has nuclear weapons. Why would they need to play politics with gas? They don't play politics with gas. Where is that evidence? Russia is the hood's petrol station. They sell gas and oil. Cheap. You let them do that and nobody gets hurt.

Greenhouse gas? Yes, but burning it and removing the CO2 solves that problem. That's the EU solution. EU must legally reduce CO2. If the EU does not buy it, Russia will sell it to China, or worse, be forced to flare it off. What is the best option there? China burns it and lets the CO2 escape? That's your solution? Buy US gas at 2 to 3 times Russia's price. Depend on North Atlantic shipping routes for your gas supply?

OMG, what if the USA wanted to play politics with their gas? They could tell the EU to stop going on holidays to Cuba, or make Sweden become a member of NATO. Then the EU might have to buy RusGas. EU could play politics on their own by simply deciding from whom to buy gas. Isn't free market competition a wonderful thing?

If they do cut off the gas, fine, call Ted. EU has LNG gas import plants connected to the pipeline grid ready and waiting for anybody's gas.

Guaranteeing a secure and reliable energy supply in future is all about maximising supply options today. All of them.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Maybe I wasn't ironic enough.
I don't think it will bee a problemen buying gas from Russia.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Its only a problem for Ted. You do not have to buy gas from either party. But at least you can, if you want to. Meanwhile, maximize your options. There is Russian vodka and Swedish vodka. I want a choice.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The nordstream 2 pipeline is just one more playing piece in the grand game of chess. Its completion and use will allow the EU to shut down essentially all coal plants and reduce the net CO2 emissions due to the lower CO2 emissions of gas fired combined cycle plants compared to the coal fired rankine cycle. There also is the looming power deficit related to the shutdown of the german and some french nukes. Using russian gas is cheaper than using US /Qatar LNG, but it shifts the profits to russia as opposed to helping finance US shale gas. There are also proposals to run add'l gas pipelines from the mideast to the EU thru the intermediary countries that are coincidentially the victims of turmoil, almost certainly deliberately fostered to exert influence to run those add'l pipelines. The noise you hear in the media is just fodder to confuse the masses; the families of the politicians that are involved in these grand energy decisions are laughing all the way to the crypto banks.


"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Media noise? They have to sell something.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Not media noise. Media coverage of that is likely to be more silent than the inside of the underground gravity wave detector. I think Biden and Merkel will talk more about this over dinner at the upcoming NATO meeting than anything else. Neither of them will be smiling until the cameras get turned on.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
The final costs of the February Texas power crisis are being tallied:

11 deaths, 1,400+ ED visits for carbon monoxide poisoning reported during Texas' winter power outage

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-healt...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The hubris of "We have winter in Texas too" and then they really got winter.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

John: seems like they have difficulty in counting down there?

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/weather/2021/04/30...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
The item I posted was specifically about carbon monoxide deaths, while your item covered a broader range of causes. But I'm sure that like everything, there's a certain leeway given for determining whether something was directly related to the weather or simply coincidental. After all, over a certain period of time, there's probably going to be people who, during the colder winter months, will die of carbon monoxide poisoning or even hypothermia whether the power gird failed or not.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I am wondering if the human cost or the financial cost will be enough to push the issue of winterizing has value.

A number of costs like this can be added to the human cost, Samsung Suffered $270 Million Loss Due To Power Outage In Texas.
NXP, Infineon plants hit by power outage in Texas storm
There was already a shortage, The Texas storms made it significantly worse.
Chip shortage forces Ford to build trucks without computers
The global chip shortage is going from bad to worse. Here's why you should care

For the oil refineries with excess capacity, shutting down depletes excess inventory, so you could argue the profit is just time shifted. The entire semiconductor fab sector is running at capacity , so the outage represents actual lost revenue. This also impacts the companies that ordered the chips not produced.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There are only so many ways you can put lipstick on a pig...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The widely recognised equation, Time=Money, holds that there is no such thing as time shifted revenue, certainly not in a time continuous process. Profits delayed are accompanied by a corresponding loss of principal x interest.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

What's you locals thoughts about the tax credit proposal to keep the nukes running?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Is there any update on what happened to all those super high electricity bills?

Have they been cancelled or??

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Still ongoing from what I can tell.

They are in the position now that they are demanding payment from the cooperatives for what their consumers have used but then are refusing to pay the generation side of things what they are owed for what they produced. Some of the cooperatives are saying we will just cancel things so you don't owe us anything apart from our surplus production and we will deal with billing our own consumers at what ever rate we decide.

But apparently they are not having that they want every consumer to pay the rate and then when they get the money they will pay for production.

Loads of company's going bankrupt or chapter 11.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

is it happening 'all over' or only in Texas?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Don't know, Stuff just appears in my news feed after this thread and looking at it.

99% of it is from Texas but that could just be the news feed algorithm. In some ways it looks a bigger mess than when it started with all the political bum covering and movements. What does seem obvious though is that they want the consumers to pay if they were contracted for it. And there are going to do there upmost to make sure nothing changes to the way they run it and regulate it. Apart from maybe extract cash out of the off grid and self powering consumers.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

FacEngEE,

Power factor correction by a synchronous condenser is usually only done if it needs to be high speed for transient stability or if a motor or generator is just sitting there unused. For power factor correction, it is extremely expensive in comparison to capacitor banks. Utilities don't like synchronous condensers even though they are cheaper than solid state FACTS devices because they aren't a single point of failure and don't have moving parts. Inside plants, they are used this way far more often than on the transmission system but that is just because of having motors that are tied to an idle or dead process.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Think that last post missed the intended forum.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Hydrates in gas gathering pipelines are a good part of it..
What really happened.


Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

whoa 1 week costing the same as 4.5 years for wholesale energy providers.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The worst were some Griddy customers. They got 20 year bills.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

One thing I was always told, read the contract. Even more so after I heard one computer game company had a statement in there contract that they would recieve your everlasting soul.

On the other hand, the customers should not have been sold such open ended contracts.

Let them fight it out in court, and the political system.

On the third hand, utilities are being pushed into DER's and that technology is not fully developed, or tested to the extent that they can be modeled correctly.
So I believe it is right that the utilities would be angry at the DER's that are not available when they are needed.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

how likely is it that the end consumer will get out of paying it?

I think in the UK the courts would very quickly null and void the contract but I wouldn't be surprised in the USA if it held them to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yes, caveat emptor may rule in the US, difficult to say.

Most places have regulations and law precedence saying you can't expect an average consumer to be aware of the risk they are taking unless it is spelt out in big bright flashing letters and even then I don't think anyone would sign up to a contract where the potential impact was a 9000% increase or whatever it was.

But someone somewhere will end up paying as the generators produced electricity in line with their contracts at that hugely inflated rate and now need payment. It might take a while and a lot of court cases, but money will flow eventually. Mainly into the pockets of the lawyers.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It's not a problem in many places... critical infrastructure is often government run, and not private.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

i don't reckon it will flow apart from into lawyers pockets

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

And in some places you can't tell the difference, like when the Utility Commission works for Wall Street.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

cranky DERs ?

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

DER, distributed energy resources. Mainly consist of wind and solar, but could be other.

For the most part non-selectable on energy output. Take or pay arrangements forced on to utilities by regulators.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Okey thanks cranky for the clarification.
But it's a bit strange though all energi sources is distributed in one way or another.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I know we discussed this thing with preparedness in one thread, not sure it was here, but anyways.

I got this phone call Wednesday and when I answered there was this AI voice telling me that they where going to cut the water off between Thursday 20 May 20.00 to Friday 21 May at 06.00, and that I should fill up some water bottles and that there would be a tank truck with water by the grocery store if I needed more.

I guess that is one reason, why we here where I live, isn't always so well prepared.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I guess if they can't see it coming, then you just gotta' force it on them. If they built their own, they wouldn't have to take or pay, they could just make, take and collect.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

new(s)

"Texas Governor Greg Abbott’s office knew of looming natural gas shortages on February 10, days before a deep freeze plunged much of the state into blackouts, according to documents obtained by E&E News and reviewed by Ars.

Abbott’s office first learned of the likely shortfall in a phone call from then-chair of the Public Utility Commission of Texas DeAnne Walker. In the days leading up to the power outages that began on February 15, Walker and the governor’s office spoke 31 more times.

Walker also spoke with regulators, politicians, and utilities dozens of times about the gas curtailments that threatened the state’s electrical grid. The PUC chair’s diary for the days before the outage shows her schedule dominated by concerns over gas curtailments and the impact they would have on electricity generation. Before and during the disaster, she was on more than 100 phone calls with various agencies and utilities regarding gas shortages."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Seems Nordstream 2 has been resolved. Well not resolved, just apart from blowing it up they realised it was going to be finished like it or not and Germany wasn't going to budge.

https://www.dw.com/en/nord-stream-2-us-to-waive-sa...



RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Thanks for that post.

Thats good news for everyone except Ted Cruz and his sidekick Cornyn. It was obviously not worth souring relations with Germany just to please those guys. The gas consumers in the US and EU will both have advantage of free market prices for gas, which were rising in the US of late, sustained by purchases made for the export market and the EU retains its rights to decide its own energy security policy. For once, sanity has prevailed. It was a ridiculous move from the very beginning. Texas can't even handle their own energy problems, so they don't need to be holding the keys to Europe's. A bill to prohibit TX public entities from making renewable energy investments was just signed by Gov Abbott. A move which will leave them illy prepared for the future and inevitably dig into the people's pockets who will be paying federal taxes so all that renewable power can be built elsewhere.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

They have other moves afoot currently according to the solar groups.

They want to be able to bill infrastructure to all electricity consumers including off grid. So if you are off grid you will need a meter what you make/use and then they will bill for the grid maint.

Grid tied they want everything produce to go through a separate meter into the grid and then another meter recording what you use. They also want the ability to kill the feed in if grid stability requires it so even if you can cover your own requirements you will have to buy off the grid anyway.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

With that logic, Texans will soon pay for the air they breath. Hopefully the CO2 content will still let them.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

They are not the first to implement this model. And won't be the last.

Like it or not having a major percentage of your population opting out of infrastructure payments is a major problem especially if your only up to 1/3rd of your way through a capital plan.

But then again you should get something for what you pay and it shouldn't go into shareholders pocket's.

I am expecting something similar to come in in Europe in the next 15 years.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

They tried it in Spain. It was eliminated a couple of years ago. The "Sun Tax" solar panel licensing fees. Paying for something you don't use does not fit into the Spanish mindset. They will hardly go on vacation if they have to pay to park their car for a month without using it.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It will be another EU shafting so no choice in the matter

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Much of the public infrastructure billing debate revolves around who the question of actually owns the infrastructure. As we have been deregulating (or as I prefer to think of it - breaking monopolies) stateside, the argument could be made that the distribution infrastructure needs to be publicly owned and therefore costs shared by all for its maintenance. Currently, I have my choice of several companies each for power, natural gas, telephone, and cable, obviously am interested in paying as little as possible for each, yet need to cover the infrastructure through either taxes or some form of private billing capable of covering the cost no matter who I choose to pay this month.

The other interesting yet absurd discussion going on stateside currently is the push to monopolize internet services by making them a public utility. Comically enough, its popular among IT folks.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Cwb1 it's exactly the same problem this side of the pond.

Where I am you end up getting 3 bills for your electricity.

To be honest I feel that the grid should be publicly owned and maintained. It's not the sort of thing you want to run the risk of getting run into the ground through short term accountants bonuses drives.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It kind of makes sense not having 20 companies all stringing the same stuff throughout the city as well. How many cell towers can you see from your office?

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

We receive one bill, just the private provider of that service. I assume however that there is a process behind the scenes to determine whose power/gas/data flowed through whose wire/plumbing, and that various companies charge others' for the use of infrastructure accordingly. I honestly haven't chosen a side on this issue of infrastructure ownership. My parents are part of a small township-owned rural electric cooperative that both generates hydropower and distributes across ~30 mi^2. There is no competition in their area due to the PoCo being municipally owned, however the reliability is excellent despite minimal manpower (6 employees?) and the rates dirt cheap, $0.025/kwh. Govt stateside very rarely does anything well so I do not really trust that model but in their case it works. OTOH, I am also not a fan of private utility monopolies bc the reliability suffers and the products become expensive. When house-hunting I have always looked for homes with natural gas availability and deregulated utilites allowing competition.

I honestly dont notice cell towers in cities stateside and imagine that infrastructure is mostly atop larger buildings. Out in the countryside where light pollution is nonexistent, a blinking red light in the distance IME is usually either a wind turbine or cell tower but in/near a city its often just a building or tall billboard.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Well it might be annoying to have 3 bills but I think it in one way makes sense.

Here Svenska Kraftnät (SVK) is a state-owned enterprise that was formed in 1992.
The operations are financed through fees.
The fees are paid by the regional network owners and large electricity producers in order for them to be able to use the main grid.

But then you pay lokal grid provider as well, I mean you want them close if you have a problem.

To be able to choose from who you want to buy your power from, also sets a bit of pressure on the companies to keep the cost down and deliver power to a resonable price.
Here I could change the power provider every month if I like, it's just a couple of clicks away on the computer and it's done.

Off course no one dose it, that often, most people are lazy and just want it to work and don't ruin them.

I think it's a better strategi to give people a better deal/benefits when installing solarcells and such then to force them off the grid, no one benefits from that.

I suppose with a solarcell home solution you are sometime a costumer and pay for grid cost when using power and sometime a provider and pays to be able to deliver to others. ponder

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

So if they want to tax solar energy used off the grid, that will be interesting to see meters on all those solar lights they sell at Walmart, as well as adding $50 to the price of a $1 light.

That won't last long, but the debate will go more distance.

Actually there are some cities in the US where the city does electric, gas, water, and wastewater, and the customers get only one bill for all of it.

Though not where I live.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It's not just solar per say.

It's quite interesting watching the various mentality's of the various people involved. Well from the outside anyway.

Both sides have some absolutely nut cases putting forward totally unrealistic extreme view points.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The minds at work are simply frightening at times.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Some of you don't understand that someone has to foot the bill for intermittent or undispatchable service. That is just reality. I saw this same thing 10 years ago when a municipal was arguing for projects to enhance their reliability but at the same time whenever summer peak occured, electrical prices were high so they had their diesel generators up and running and in the summer peak models. It always showed them as having no load because of that. So, basically they wanted all the reliability of having firm load without paying for peak load service. It pissed off everyone else who got wrapped into paying for their upgrades, which normally would be covered by MW per Mile transmission fees if they had normal service instead of gaming the system.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Don't understand? Fisch, What makes electric companies so special that they think they should get to charge anyone for what they don't sell them? Where else does that happen? Gas companies are not eating at that trough. Toll roads dont charge all the other cars taking alternate routes. I dont pay Amazon to not watch their movies; I have Netflix. I dont pay McDonald's to eat at KFC, nor NY Port Authority to not cross their bridges. Try telling somebody 17.5 miles off the grid he's gotta pay for your hot standby. Then run fast.

IF electrics need money for hot standby, they can charge their customers for it. If they need wires, charge their customers for the wires. Gas companies manage without billing non-customers.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503,

Hardly, anyone is detached from the grid so let's not talk about that. People who have solar panels still require system services and occasionally export power onto the grid. The energy is not being stored at people's houses. There is Tesla battery wall but near no one has such things. Traditionally, expenses for the transmission and distribution of power was built into your electrical bill when you consumed electrical power. Now, people are exporting power and only needing full service at night or when it is cloudy. Needed system upgrades won't pay for themselves. You might not agree with how they do capture money for system upgrades but that is moot point. A transmission or distribution charge will show up on your bill even if you made little use of the grid. How they do that can be argued about but that is what will happen.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Here you pay a fixed annual cost for the main fuse.
You can't choose to have how small as you wont it is 3 phase 10A (only apartments), 16 A, 32 A or 64 A.
Then it's a fixed cost for every kW consumed/used.
I guess that it is the same if you provide power to the grid, not shore they are the same though.
Here it's not unusual that solarpanels come with back up batteri packages, usually you try to have so much backup power so you can save enough over normal sunny say so it will last you over the nigh until next day.
Of course there will be times when you will need to buy and times when you can sell.
But since the maintains of the grid are more or less the same regardless of if you use it or not, I guess the rate for transmission will rice.
But on the other hand the more solarcells people install the less need for upgrading the lokal transmission network for higher power consumption, if everyone want's to have preheated pools and air-condition everywhere.
And here at least most lokal transmission grids are buried so they claim the maintains cost will be lower.

The big consumers of power from the large power providers I think will be produktion companies and factories.

The big problem here right now is that the large main grid is under dimensioned in some places so we have a lot of power but we can't always get it to where we want it to be.

That is why many of the new and large factories and facility's built right now, is built in the north of Sweden because that's where the power is.
Short distances needed for new power grids and the electricity is cheaper here too.
The risk is less for power losses and such.

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Larger customers have a demand meter. Maybe they should do that for small customers. A demand sets a one year demand rate.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Well in one way we already have, my former power provider at first hade expected yearly consumption.
Now since they read the meter electronically every month if not every second they know quite well how my consumption looks.
I mean for a apartment it dose not vary that much.
If you have your heating from electricity they know that too, so when the cold strikes they know to expect higher outtakes.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I think they are all getting scared now that they don't actually know the true consumption that's going on.

Half of it will be missed profits the other off what if a volcano goes off or other climate effect and drops the wind or solar by 5-10%

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The bill on a small customer should contain three parts, the meter read (a fixed part), a consumption (fuel), and a demand (capacity of the grid).

The old meters only metered consumption, and the demand was calculated from that. Larger customers had a consumption, and demand reading ( the meters cost more like that).

Now we don't have a meter reader (a person) the meter read charge is electronic, and includes fixed cost of some of the distribution system including the drop to your home. It also pays for some of the transformer losses on the transformer near your home.
The demand charge is to pay for the part of the transmission system you use, and should (in my thinking) be charged which ever the direction of the power flows.

The consumption change still pays for fuel, purchased electric from others, or something simular.

Added in maybe other charges that are mandated, like city, county, and other taxes and fees.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

When the grid buys power, they do that at the avoidence cost of generation rate. The grids do not pay retail, so that difference should be enough to pay for generation and wires during the times when the solar generators do take, especially since when they do, they are supposedly paying for that anyway.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

To be honest I have a 32 amp supply and I get charged 1.60 euro a month for that.

I don't need that much but it would cost 10 years of savings to get it reduced to the next size down.

The biggest saving I get is not paying the taxes that I do when I pull from grid. I need to produce 3 times as much as I used to cover all the other charges.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

1503,

When power is bought back onto the grid, it sometimes is very close to retail depending on the arrangements by the utility for net metering. I came across this when I inquired a DER group how any of their projects make any financial sense. They then went onto to explain that they were not getting paid $30 MWH at which the node usually closes out but at $100 MWH, which is what the customer pays. I think this will be more the norm with the mandates FERC put into place with Order 2222 that force utilities to accommodate DER resources.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

seems things are struggling again.

Have they lost capacity again?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

They would really benefit from another power solution for there air-conditioning.

Wouldn't mind some air conditioning myself sometimes.
Right now the only option is keeping all windows, blinds and curtains closed and sealed, and then open all the doors and windows for a couple of hours in the evening so that there is wind drafts throughout the apartment, cooling it down.

There was a reportage about solar panels yesterday on TV.
HSB is Sweden's largest housing cooperative, they have started to build solar parks by selling shares to those who rent apartments in their housing stock.
I guess they get reduced electricity costs exactly how it is financially structured, I do not know.
At the same time, they are trying to increase biodiversity by sowing natural flowers and grass between the solar panels.
In areas with large areas of agricultural land, there is little biodiversity.
Only 1% of our energy production is solar right now.

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Yea they tried the solar farms here, and selling shares. The last one could not seem to sell all the shares, and went bankrupt.

No as a utility we did not buy it. I might have expected us to, but we did not.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Maybe the difference here is, that it is Sweden's larges housing cooperative and it is in line with Sweden's CO2 goals so every part of society and the government agencies are onboard, it might make it easier.



/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical)
15 Jun 21 06:43)



seems one of the nukes went offline and total 9000 MW offline

article blocked (pay to view)

which plant Commanche or STP

I found another article that stated nearly 9,000 MWs of fossil fuel plants were off line.

I thought shutting down fossil fuel plants was desired?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
From the item below, it appears to be one of the Comanche units that's offline:

'Outrageous.' Texas grid scare reignites blackout concerns

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063734985

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Power Reactor Status Report for June 15, 2021

Plant / % Power
Comanche Peak 1 / 100
Comanche Peak 2 / 0
South Texas 1 / 100
South Texas 2 / 100


That would only account for around 1,300MW of the 11,000MW offline.

If they are having a difficult time meeting demand before summer has even officially began, then... I'm thinking that it's going to be a long summer!

At least when we were without power in the winter, we could bundle up, get under the covers, huddle together.
If we lose power for several days in the dead of summer, there will be no escaping the heat/humidity.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The only thing I can see is Peak 2 scrammed due sensors issue

And the rest of the shortfall is due to hydrocarbon offline be it scheduled or un planned.

The nuke is passed the window for a quick restart. Although if its very near refuel they might have a bit of time yet before they have to alter the chemistry and inject.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

kinda reminds me of the california grid crisis of 2000-2001.At that time , operators would call each other up and exchange data on when they may have a "forced outage" , so as to jack up rates. Since then, the laws were revised to preclude such communications for those plants on the national grid, but Texas being its own grid might not be liable to follow those laws.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

As an employee at a Texas generating plant, we are strictly warned not to discuss (outside the plant) when the plant is offline/online, scheduled to go off-line/on-line, vulnerable to going off-line. etc. It's like insider stock information. That information is shared only through formal channels so everyone in the public (including people wheeling and dealing in the power market) has equal access to it. If we see that information is already publicly available then we can discuss it. I don't know what the laws and criminal penalties are but the company doesn't take it lightly.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

The first line of Nordstream 2 was completed last month they expect the second one to be finished in a matter of weeks.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Maybe NERC rules for power markets. Same thing I can not discuss plant, or project schedules with the power markerters down the hall.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Quote (Engineering.Com)

How that oil will get to market, and to whom is an open question.
That's an easy one.
When the XL was proposed, it was to carry synthetic crude oil.
Then the Alberta Government decided on long term pain for short term gain.
They allowed the export of bitumen and jobs.
Instead of upgrading the bitumen to synthetic crude in Canada, the bitumen is now upgraded in Texas.
Now every day there are trainloads of DruBit leaving Alberta bound for the Southern upgraders.
The energy transport market has changed quite a bit.
There is already a pipeline corridor from Alberta to the south.
The XL was a short cut.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It was strange that Alberta chose not to refine the crude; globally it seems that the decision to build refineries is over the heads of political leaders and some other market force or externally imposed rule prevents the building of more refineries. Looking into the medium term future, there may be an effort by global leaders to reduce refining capacity for gasoline and bias the production toward diesel for heavy trasnport vehicles only, pushing consumers toward EV's. Too bad that VW recalled all its diesel cars- they may become valuable in that instance.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

There was a recession and oil revenues dropped.
Rather than tighten the budget belt, the government bowed to the US interests and started to issue permits to export raw bitumen.
It doesn't take a lot of manpower to run a SAGD operation and the many jobs associated with an upgrader went south with the bitumen. i consider those jobs to be part of our children's future lost.
Some of the numbers:
Suncor was building a new upgrader with a budgeted price of around 13 Billion dollars.
Conoco Philips build a large SAGD operation with a budget of 2 Billion dollars that over ran the budget by another billion dollars.
With the shift to bitumen export, the demand for synthetic crude dropped and Suncor cancelled the upgrader when it was partly built.
Intelligence and foresight don't seem to be prerequisites for political office.
Some other numbers:
Moving DilBit by pipeline; add 30% diluent, and the diluent is often returned to be reused.
So to transport 70 barrels of bitumen requires 30 barrels of diluent plus 30 barrels of diluent returned.That's 130 barrels of pipeline capacity to move 70 barrels of product. A utilization factor of 70/130 = 54%
On the other hand when bitumen is transported by rail it is often in the form of DruBit; Diluent Removed Bitumen. When you ship 100 barrels you get 100 barrels.
The trains are rolling south every day.
The industry is changing and my information may be out of date but the main point is the changes rather than exact percentages.
Updates with new information are welcome.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

Interesting details there about XL, which has always been a complicated picture to me. If I can summarize the need for XL is not so strong because Canada has not invested to create synethetic crude but it rather focusing on exporting bitumen coal to US for processing. (did I get that right?).

About the nuc unit that went down in Texas: Comanche Peak... it appears they had a main transformer failure / fire.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Another issue with the XL pipeline was concern that much of the 'crude' may have eventually ended-up at a refinery operation in Texas where the final products would have been exported overseas, thereby not providing any direct benefit to American consumers. And added to that was a report that since the oil flowing through the XL pipeline would have been from a foreign source and since the products refined from the oil would have been exported, that technically this oil could have been considered as having never actually been in the United States, and therefore, any profits earned would not have been subject to state and federal taxes.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
I guess we shouldn't be surprised to learn that someone is looking into this as a way of learning more about what happened when this past winter's power interruptions in Texas happened. Data is being gathered continuously by these smart meters and I'm not surprised that they're easy to 'hack' into, if only to collect the metadata.

We have smart meters in our neighborhood here in SoCal and I can go into the power company website and see our usage on an hour-by-hour basis for the entire billing cycle each month. And if there are outages, these are flagged as such when you look at the historical usage charts:

Hacker reveals smart meters are spilling secrets about the Texas snowstorm

Power companies won't disclose who was protected from blackouts—but smart meters may be leaking insights.


https://www.dailydot.com/debug/hacker-smart-meter-...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

And that is the reason people don't like smart meters.
They think more intrusion into there lives.

In this case they are right.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
But if this guy's research shows that there was some selective outages, or more importantly, selective non-outages, which shows a pattern of favoritism, for whatever reason, be it political, social, racial, etc, then perhaps having this data made public could be a good thing.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

I fail to see what's intrusive here. Anyone can walk up to any meter and see the meter number, and use a hand held GPS to get the coordinates. He did not gather any customer account information(it's not transmitted)and he did not get any usage readings.

If favoritism is a concern, I would think the PUC could get by any CEII restrictions to investigate.

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

It is my understanding that one can pay extra for uninterruptible power supply,such as hospitals, police stations, communication centers, etc. Likewise consumers with special health needs that require continuous production of oxygen or some other service also may get special treatment. The deregulation of the industry also brought with it various fine print excusions and waivers of liability from some providers, if you selected such providers. I do not think the special treatment is due to a nefarious cabal deep in the heart of the ISO, it is just the way we let it evolve.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)...

(OP)
Yes, there was a period of time when my wife's mother was living with us and she had to be on an oxygen concentrator at night. There was a program where we could apply for a reduced electrical rate due to having to support medical equipment, however, this meant that we could not participate in the AC cycling program. It was one or the other, but it did mean that they couldn't cycle our AC since we had a person living with us who could have been harmed by excessive heat in the home. She lived with us for nearly seven years.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

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Low-Volume Rapid Injection Molding With 3D Printed Molds
Learn methods and guidelines for using stereolithography (SLA) 3D printed molds in the injection molding process to lower costs and lead time. Discover how this hybrid manufacturing process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches of thermoplastic parts. Download Now
Design for Additive Manufacturing (DfAM)
Examine how the principles of DfAM upend many of the long-standing rules around manufacturability - allowing engineers and designers to place a part’s function at the center of their design considerations. Download Now
Taking Control of Engineering Documents
This ebook covers tips for creating and managing workflows, security best practices and protection of intellectual property, Cloud vs. on-premise software solutions, CAD file management, compliance, and more. Download Now

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