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Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.
65

Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

These "once in a lifetime" events are coming a lot more frequent than that.

This goes back to the issue of investment in something (blade anti icing) that's only needed for a few days every 5 years.

A bit like snow clearing equipment at Heathrow a few years ago when it shut for 3 days. THEN they bought a load of gear which now sits rusting on one of the aprons and not used.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
yep and when they do need it then it breaks down after 12 hours.

Where as in Arlanda and Helsinki They start doing work ups and practising in October.

And the gear they use makes the UK stuff look like toys. Its more open pit mining size when you get up close to it.

Plus they don't seem to bother with speed limits like the UK. When the ploughs hit the runway they are doing 50 km/hr UK airside speed limit of 15mph is applied in the UK.

Back to the windfarms though an out of balance set of blades with ice on them must be a scary sight. I have only seen one turbine self destruct and I wouldn't like to be anywhere near it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Then there are additional issues like a refinery shutdown -
The largest oil refinery in the United States, in Port Arthur, is shutting down due to the freezing weather.
The refinery's operator, Motiva Enterprises, said in a statement that "unprecedented freezing temperatures necessitated safely and methodically shutting down our Port Arthur Manufacturing Complex."

Jay Maechtlen
http://www.laserpubs.com/techcomm

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
At least they just it down and didn't try to push the limits. Maybe cooperate management are learning to listen to the engineers not the accountants and there bonuses.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

This is a rare weather event, according to reports are the previous similar event was more than 30 years ago. It is not just some wind turbines off line, but a number of coal and natural gas plants tripped off line. These power plants that are not designed for freezing conditions, and when exposed to extended serious sub freezing conditions, become unpredictable.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/ercot...
Texas has limited capacity to import power from the south west power pool (eastern interconnect) and even more limited options to the western interconnect one result was that in many locations rolling blackouts are reportedly no longer rolling.
https://www.texasnewsexpress.com/02152021-1358/sno...
https://leadershipvision.net/2021/02/15/frozen-win...

Trouble has also been reported to spill into Mexico " Natural gas shortage in Texas causes blackout in Northern Mexico February 16, 2021" https://globalrubbermarkets.com/270826/natural-gas...

"Millions Without Power In Texas, Northern Mexico As Blackouts And Bitter Cold Continue February 16, 20214:33 AM ET" https://www.npr.org/2021/02/16/968230163/millions-...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Freezing rain is utterly hellish to deal with

And when it melts floods will be a likely issue.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

They had a similar reduction in elec power in Texas in 2016, due to freezing of small exterior water pipes at some coal fired plants that were on standby. The plants could not restart to meet the increased demand due to frozen pipes, caused by inadequate freeeze protection. I suppose the original design assumption was the plant would be based loaded and that constant flow in the pipes would prevent freezing.The new mode of operation ( 2 shift) caused by increased reliance on wind energy violated a design assumption. Design assumptions are the cause of a lot of real life problems.

The increased use of wind energy imposes other problems in the electrical power supply system, again demonstrated in Texas ERCOT 10 yrs ago. The wind turbines have a max permitted operating wind speed of 55 mph, and as soon as that speed is reached, they disconnect to avoid overspeed. When you have thousands of wind turbines on a large west texas wind farm shut down at the same time due to a wind storm, it caused a 1.5 GWe loss of power within 45 minutes, and that forced ERCOT to shutdown large industrial power consumers. Then the turbines restarted when the wind died down to 54.9999 mph, and that caused a surge in supply. Thkis led to the requirement to provide airspeed indicators at each farm , so the ISO can predict the wind turbine outage soon enough to start fast startup suppliers. This problem will become a nationwide problem if and when the UHVDC transmission lines are completed, connecting the central plains wind turbine farms to the 2 coasts.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

They can usually sling off ice when running. The problem intensifies when they are forced to shut down in 35mph+ winds. Then the ice sticks, looses aerodynamics and won't start until its melted off. Where's that carburetor heat?

Design point breeze is usually for a wind speed of around 15mph.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Biden has approved disaster relief already, even though both TX & OK are about as red as they can get. Nice not to have red and blue states again.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

3
Perhaps this will give the group that wants Texas to become its own country some consideration to the benefit of federal subsidies, emergency aid and state-to-state sharing for the good of all involved?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

2
They only have hindsight.
What else can you see with HUA.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Being Scottish I can tell you it won't make the slightest bit of difference IFRs. They will be more than happy living in caves if it means they are independent if they are anything like Scotland and the SNP.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

"due to freezing of small exterior water pipes "

It's always the small things that bite your in the arse and kill you.....

The switchover to condensing boilers in the UK hit a big hitch few years ago when all the condensate drains that people had put in far longer and more exposed than they should all started to freeze up in a rare blast of freezing weather that lasted a few days. Domestic boilers (furnaces) were shutting down because they had too much water inside. Cue pictures of freezing families trying to thaw out plastic pipes using kettles and such like.

Whilst some had been lagged, very few were het traced and it was the long period of very cold weather which did for them.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

This article provides some context to the contribution of wind power to the issues in Texas: https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02/texas-powe...

According to the article, the total power generation from wind farms yesterday was apparently greater than what had been planned for during that time period.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

On the demand side, electric residential heat is common in south Texas. When demand is rising and supply is falling, you have to expect problems.

My glass has a v/c ratio of 0.5

Maybe the tyranny of Murphy is the penalty for hubris. - http://xkcd.com/319/

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Texas is unusual in that almost the entire state is part of a single grid that lacks extensive integration with those of the surrounding states.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

From what I've read, the actual wind power generated still exceeded the expected for the time period (the expected was low).

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Beware this cold front is heading East around the globe. After New England, where will it hit next?

Texas does have a few DC ties to other states, but mostly to SPP which had it's own problems at the same time.

This just shows some of the weaknesses in the systems, and is anyone going to take steps to fix it?

Lots of coal still goes to Texas, so I don't see how it could be a fuel problem.

Yes gas wells tend to be wet, so they can freeze up, if not well heat traced. Which I suppose is the case. Rural electric is costly, so diesel generators likely are the thing, but those may not start in the cold.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Yes, there's a bit of an outrage in Houston this morning when this image was seen on the local TV station showing, as a result of the so-called rolling blackouts, downtown Houston all lite-up as if there was no power grid problems yet the residential and small commercial businesses in the areas surrounding the city in near total darkness:



Skyscrapers lit up in downtown spark outrage amid power outages

https://abc13.com/eerie-photo-of-skyline-sparks-ou...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

apparently snow and cold weather has been occurring in Texas for years. it is nothing new and not quite as rare as it is being made out to be. somebody forgot to account for that in the design of the turbines. I thought "resiliency" was the whole reason for these alternative energy sources...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
crankie it was -25 C last night at mine..... and below -10C since beginning of Jan.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Freezing rain is pretty fatal to aircraft propellers with all the high powered de ice and anti ice gear running. Never mind wind turbines.

And it takes a hellva lot of deicing fluid to shift the ice afterwards. And and I can't see wind turbines getting de iced with Type one heated fluid.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Yeah. 100% redundancy is required: If (WHEN) the renewables fail "unexpectedly" the real producers are in the regulator-politician bulleyes to be screwed by too-fast-startups (little or too fast heatup rates that break turbines, compressor cases, exhaust cases, and exhaust transitions) or ups-and-downs that can't be predicted so standby costs go through the roof.

When renewables exceed 5% your grid begins to fail over a long-term basis. Below 5%, it can survive most flip-flops and cycles.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.


Quote (JayMaechtlen)

Then there are additional issues like a refinery shutdown -
The largest oil refinery in the United States, in Port Arthur, is shutting down due to the freezing weather.

I'm working across the highway from that refinery at a different chemical plant doing a Cogenerator steam CT project upgrade. We were shutdown Sunday, lost Monday NS, Monday DS and still cannot get back to work today (Tuesday DS.) I-10, I210, I-12 were closed Monday morning for all traffic (ice sheets on the high bridges, on the overpasses and low river and swamp bridges) , but some traffic could get east-west by noon Monday. We are still locked out today. 11-14 degrees F right now.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

And yet in Alberta, during the last 10 days of minus 25 weather, we seem to be having less than the usual amount of reported issues due to freezing etc. Just goes to show that if enough preventative $$ are thrown at a problem, thereisnt a problem. Methinks Texas has enough $$$ as well as engineering expertise, just lacking the political will.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

At the beginning of WWII, my dad said (he was with the RCAF) that deicer fluid was nearly 100% ethyl alcohol... about half way through the war they decided to 'denature' it so it was toxic. I've designed several de-icing facilities for airports.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
H'mm I thought they used urea in WW2 or maybe that was just this side of the pond. Mainly from pig farms. Don't think they needed to bother denaturing it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Likely many of you don't know about a like thread under electric power. But that should not matter, as there are also shortages of natural gas, which is also part of the electric power problem.

It is not just a power problem, but also a problem of gas wells freezing up. So don't be so quick to point fingers. Also the big highway crashes, because of ice on the highway, and lack of deicers being used.

No Texas was not ready for this, but it was not just the electric grid.

Most of the blame can be placed on cost, and the unwillingness to bear the cost for such a short time event.

Yes rolling outages always cause outrage, but calls to cut back usually go upon deaf ears.
Tip, now is the time to sell your unused generator.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
crankie108 I do feel for those affected and had presumed that lots of other services would have been taken out as well.

I didn't realise though how isolated some states are from the rest of the infrastructure.

Its not going to get above freezing until Sat or Sunday and if the hardware has been cold soaked for a week its going to take quiet a few days to get it warmed up and fix burst pipes etc.

My house in -20 C drops from 20 degs internal temp by 1 deg per hour with 300mm of rockwool insulating it. And I have a backup wood fire with 20 m3 of wood in the barn to burn in case of power cut taking the heatpump out.
I believe Southern states have no where near 300mm insulation..

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Typically everyone in the US designs to ASHREA design day.


The lowest extreme cold day temp listed for Houston is 16F, at 6:53 this morning it was 15F (-9C) at the airport. So the temperature essentially matches the ASHREA extreme cold day.
https://www.wunderground.com/weather/us/tx/houston...

At this temperature the usual approach of brining roadways does not work well, actually nothing works well on freezing rain except staying home.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (These "once in a lifetime" events are coming a lot more frequent than that.)


They'll pick up speed... just a little longer...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Any news on the nukes? I seems to remember Texas has 4 two are maritime climate and the other two are central. They are quiet old as well so I doubt they can be run up quickly or for that matter at max.

It's a bit disheartening to be honest seeing some of the reactions in the solar forums about all this.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I didn't know there was a solar forum... thanks AH...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Not in here, Its various forums I read on renewables.

If there was a solar/domestic renewables forum here I too would be interest in it where the extremes of the internet haven't found.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

One of the two South Texas Project plants tripped off yesterday. I do not know the reason, but that killed some 1275 Megs.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Are they the newish ones?

They had a fire there a few years ago I think in the switching yard.

They were talking about shutting them all down due to economics.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

4

Quote:

And yet in Alberta, during the last 10 days of minus 25 weather, we seem to be having less than the usual amount of reported issues due to freezing etc. Just goes to show that if enough preventative
arethrownataproblem,thereisntaproblem.MethinksTexashasenough
$ as well as engineering expertise, just lacking the political will.
Do you remember when they exported Texas management expertise to one of the major tar sands plants about 15 or so years ago?
That led to the first cold weather caused shutdown in 30 years.
A Texas oil company bought a large share of one of the major upgrading plants in Northern Alberta and sent a bunch of Texas managers to Northern Alberta to show the Canucks how to do what they had been doing well for decades.
There were a number of small temporary shelters around a number of pumps.
Just tarps over a scaffold framework.
As the story was told by the workers:
The new managers saw these little structures and asked;
"Why do we have all those ugly little shit-shacks around the plant?"
"Those are to keep the pumps from freezing in winter."
"We have winter in Texas too. Get rid of them."
Then a cold snap hit.
Without the shacks to keep the wind off of the pumps, the pump insulation and heat tracing cold not keep up with the wind chill induced heat loss.
Circulation was lost and the plant shut down.
As far as I know, that was the first weather related shutdown in the history of the plant.
The original build was in the mid '70s.
That was round one.
Round two.
Trying to re-start the plant in very cold weather didn't work well either.
As part of the process a large duct transported soot from one process to another.
The soot started settling out in the duct. (The cross section of this duct was over 100 square feet.
Then the soot caught fire.
The fire spread and took out an electrical building.

For a number of years after, an often heard phrase in the field, particularly in response to unwise suggestions was;
"Ya! We get winter in Texas too."


Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) (OP) 16 Feb 21 19:03)


Any news on the nukes? I seems to remember Texas has 4 two are maritime climate and the other two are central. They are quiet old as well so I doubt they can be run up quickly or for that matter at max

Nukes normally operate at 100%, only backdown for scheduled testing (or problems)
from NRC>gov
STP#1 experianced a scram yesterday (ie automatic shut down due to operational concerns)the adverse condition is known, but reason is still under review, the NRC site will NOT be posting findings
the other three plants are at 100%

Never been to the Texas Nuke Plants, but the fossil plants I visited did NOT have exterior walls, Ie "outdoor" designss. Pretty common design in the South. NC even has outdoor NUKE

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Having been in power plants in WY that were in mostly open structures made me realize what went into designing a plant for cold weather operation.
Sounds like ERCOT needs to revise the way that they rate plant availability. Add weather hardiness to the list.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.


Once upon a time, plants within 60 miles of the coast were only designed for 38-40F minimum ambients okay maybe a light freeze 32F, but certainly not 13 F for extended periods. The Florida panhandle had similar practices.

Sounds like the engineering decisions were set aside as too costly!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Per AH’s article, they’ve lost 12.5% of supply due to wind farm icing (50% of 25%).

But it sounds like this is being driven by a shortage of natural gas and related transmission issues.

I just read an article about the massive dumping of milk (50,000 lb/day) that is happening at one manufacturing plant because of a 100-fold increase in the price of natural gas (which they agreed to pay but the supply was cut anyway).

And I’ve heard that the natural gas suppliers are obligated to supply individual residential customers who are heating with natural gas as well. Which has left the power plants lower in the food chain.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

2
... from a market participant in ERCOT: As of ~10 AM Eastern time, the system has ~30 GW of capacity offline, ~26 GW of thermal -- mostly natural gas which cant get fuel deliveries which are being priorities for heating loads -- and ~4 GW of wind due to icing.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Right enough you have mostly pwr not agp like us Brits.

You Chuck boric acid in to control things and open the turbines up.

I think most in the UK are now limited to 80% now to extend life.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Part of the logic of putting residential natural gas high than power plants is that power plants that fire natural gas used to often have dual fuel - Coal or No 6 oil, and switching fuels was rather simple.

Now days switching involves environmental air emissions rule compliance, and frequently the targets can not be met with coal or No 6 fuel. Low Sulfur No 2 fuel or propane usually is not as big an emissions problem, but the switching fuel needs to be on hand in useful quantities.

For it to be practical for the alternate fuel to be stored on site, it seems that the reliability factor needs to have consideration for fuel on site. In the "old" days the economics was mostly related to the cost of fuel.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

When I lived in Texas similar weather happened every few years, I dont recall it ever being a big deal beyond the locals not knowing how to drive in it. Personally I dont see how this is even remotely a disaster, a few million people without power at 5-15F here in Detroit is called a 40 mph winter breeze, an inconvenience that happens most every winter, and warmer versions happen spring, summer, and fall.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Thank you for that info, IFRs. It looks like the wind farms are a relatively small part of the problem.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Plants near the coast (TX through LA, MS, AL, GA, FL, SC, NC) are often "open air" because of the wind loads of a hurricane coming from unpredictable angles and in unpredictable guts. You'd need to design the steel frame building against 150+ mph winds from all quadrants, or the blown-down metal walls will destroy power plant electrical and control lines - or the turbines and pipes and valves controllers thems3lves.
And open-air plant is low down to the ground, open above AND below the thick turbine deck. The turbine casing and generator casings are low-level rounded top "smooth" surfaces with little wind loads. Hurricane wind and their blown rain go through the complex splitting above and below the deck, and causing little damage. Never no damage, but what is damaged can be recovered much more quickly than a slab-sided metal building that is collapsed.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Back in the day coal plants had required fuel storage requirements.
As more NatGas plants were built most were able to shirk the burden (responsability) of fuel availability.
The factory that worked at in WI had a 4 day supply of propane to back up our NatGas.
It becomes an issue with risk analysis.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

But, but, but we're maximizing shareholder value...

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

thanks IRS...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

CWB1 That was back when there were more oil & coal fired power generators.

It used to snow in Houston every 5yrs, but that was a long, long time ago. Only one time I remember in Laredo. One complete week of below freezing in Houston. Below 32F even in the afternoons. 1983

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Some info on the STP trip: Link

Quote (STP spokesperson)

On Monday, Feb. 15, 2021, at 0537, an automatic reactor trip occurred at South Texas Project in Unit 1. The trip resulted from a loss of feedwater attributed to a cold weather-related failure of a pressure sensing lines to the feedwater pumps, causing a false signal, which in turn, caused the feedwater pump to trip. This event occurred in the secondary side of the plant (non-nuclear part of the unit). The reactor trip was a result of the feedwater pump trips. The primary side of the plant (nuclear side) is safe and secured.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I did some pipe stress and whip restraint design there.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

There's an old saying: "What Goes Around Comes Around".
It's been a long time since the energy crisis under the Carter administration. A Texas song from back then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bADTlEo0Y30

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well, my days as a Reactor Watch Officer were long past, but we'd be able to get the little bitty S6G submarine reactors back on line a bit quicker than 24 hours ...
If the cause is known, fix it.
Check for similar problems, fix them.
Start up.

Don't talk about it, start up.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
little reactors little problems I think was the expression they used to use to the ex Sub guys from the Royal Navy.

Hopefully they have butchered the sensor feed and restored the feedwater.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

4
As a Californian, before you give Texas too much grief, we are the state that turns off our power due to good weather. Texas gets theirs interrupted by bad weather. There is a distinction to be made there. How often do you hear advertisements in Texas telling you to avoid using power between 4pm and 9pm? That's a regular occurrence here in CA.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Cranky108)

...is anyone going to take steps to fix it?
I expect lots of legislation, not germane to the problem, with lots of pork attached.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

TX electrical grid is managed to minimize costs for the suppliers, with supply being held at no more than 101% of demand and little to no connection to the outside world. They have carefully done this with great success. Electric prices vary by the laws of supply and demand, in this instance they have skyrocketed. The regulators don't allow the utilities to charge for upgrades or maintenenace. This is not the first time TX has had a cold snap that caused extreme prices and shortages, and it won't be the last. Because of capitalism and poor regulation.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Sitting in isolation yet again its been quiet interesting in reading about the setup for Texas and the lengths they have gone to to avoid Federal regulation.

Its given me a better understanding of some to the views on the domestic solar groups. They will go to great lengths to get disconnected from the grid.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Natural gas is now the largest source of power generation in the US. Coal is still second with nuclear a not too distant third. All renewables combined still come in forth place.
Source: Link
The trend of late is causing base load power generation to be replaced mostly by natural gas peak generation sources. I see consequences are threefold:
1- While seemingly clean, burning natural gas is still a contributor to greenhouse gas emissions which was the primary concern with the coal plants they are replacing.
2- As we are now seeing in Texas, there are competing markets for natural gas which is needed both for power generation and home heating. Somebody has to lose when demand exceeds capacity
3- Natural gas is relatively cheap today. That makes it an attractive technology both for generators and consumers. Utility bills will definitely reflect sharp changes in the market at some point in the future when gas prices go up because supplies are pinched or whatever other reason may affect it's commodity price.

As base load generation decreases, it's not an easy or quick process to change from one source to another. Coal will be disappearing forever and the share for nuclear power is dwindling (at least for now). I don't see this to ever be resolved by the trend of moving to renewable sources.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I can't see it either renewables being the solution linked with storage.

That's quite impressive though 31 billion kWh from small scale producers. That's getting near 1%

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

One other thing which can mess with systems in cold weather is the use of gas a motive source for valves as well as instrument lines.

I once had a gas feed into a power station go down in cold biting winds because the 70 to 7 bar regulator to feed gas into the control valve actuator froze up as it had reached the gas dewpoint. Consequence was the valve lost its power to move and the system tripped and the power station tripped. Not normally an issue but then required some poor soul to regularly heat the instrument lines with hot water from a kettle all night...

Normally when you get gas systems and power systems from gas fired generation, the loss of electricity then causes all the domestic and other industrial gas supplies to stop so that you can re-start the gas generation. But ultimately if you don't have rolling black outs then demand overcomes supply.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

From the news...
"Bumbling CEO of Texas energy company ERCOT that's responsible for deadly blackouts has no idea when power will be restored to 4.4million people but claims his agency managed to AVOID a 'catastrophe' by switching it off"

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Some of the large central stations in Texas have outdoor steam turbines and feedwater heaters and pumps, with related small bore piping. No building enclosure, and the only insulation is for protection of personnel and to retain heat for efficiency, and not explicitly for freeze protection. Retrofitting freeze protection for these plants will be a large endeavor.

Another peculiarity is that most plants in Texas are IPP independent power plants and not part of a regulated utility; they bid for power against the utilities, and there are penalties for not providing the power they bid for . If they are not designed for frigid temps and are aware the polar vortex has them in the crosshairs, they do not have to bid for power at that time and might skip penalties.Their incentive to proactively improve freeze protection for 1 week every 10 yrs is just not there.

I am not familiar with the issues related to gas well freeze protection, but I assume the new regulations will require the facilites that contributed to this will need to demonstrate they will be retrofit to provide freeze protection for 5 days at 20F ambient air temp. This is the type of design data that is used to warranty the performance of the freeze protection for external piping systems. Prior to this event, the original design data may have used the NOAA design ambient data for a 97% probable event.

The normal progression for such rare events is to proclaim outrage and assign a commission to legislate changes, but as time goes by interest wanes and nothing happens. There is an alternate narrative re: climate change , and it suggests that the upcoming solar maunder minimum will lead to 20 yrs of a cooling trend , so this event may occur with more frequency then once per century.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Years ago, utilities were told not to build gas generation plants, and were pushed to build coal power plants, on a national level. Now the same utilities are being pushed to not build coal power plants, and are being pushed to gas plants. So maybe there was a reason they were pushed to use coal, as we don't produce enough gas.

This sure seems to be a government problem, created by and for the government.

Yes FERC and NERC will be looking into this, but I doubt either will bring a mirror.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I think the original reason for minimizing nat gas plants in the 1960-1980 time frame was that they thought there was a limited UG supply and it was preferentially meant to be used for home heating. Even today, new england power plants must shut down in winter to ensure adequate gas supplies are available for home heating, due to the undersized gas supply system. The Enron related findings of the 1990's and 2000's plus the fracking revolution has vastly increased the estimates of recoverable gas reserves in the USA.

Most US coal plants store 3-6 months supply of coal , to address delivery issues, that include labor strikes ( truckers, miners) and also mississippi barge limitations.

After this Texas debacle, there will need to be developed and used an education campaign to prevent the CO poisoning events that occur when people heat with charcoal or use their cars within their garages for heat, to be played on TV and radio prior to such a storm. Schools or other public buildings should be provided with backup generators and heat sources to allow the public to find a warm place for 1 week, just as used during other natural disasters. I suppose there will be a surge in people buying generators, kerosene heaters and CO monitors , and large fuel oil tanks for their homes.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

There is currently enough gas supplies when wells are online and not blocked with gas hydrate formations due to cold temperatures. Whether it can be transported to the burners in quantities required for abnormally high demands is another question.

Types of plants constructed are today defined by supplies available to the region, present and foreseeable costs of various plant types and their fuels, tax incentives and environmental regulations.

A bit outside my field, but as far as I know, nobody is ordering anyone to build any given type of plant, although ease of obtaining permits does have some effects.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Another issue that needs to be recognized and addressed is the current trend to replace natural gas heating systems with electric heat pumps, backed up with resistance heaters , will lead to a large surge in electricity demand as soon as the ambient air temp drops below 35 F , the bottom limit for an electric heat pump. In a location such as new england ( where the power plants must shut off to reserve gas for home heating) and texas, the combination of teh 2 events can lead to a duplicate of the current debacle.Both seattle and NYC are now pushing for such replacement with electric heat pumps.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

And some cities have storage of propane in case of a natural gas shortage. Not for power plants, but for homes.
Likely has some value, but most homes that heat with natural gas, require electricity also to use it.

Many gas power plants did in fact remove the dual fuel capability because it improved there heat rates, and because "they never used it". Yes I have heard that before.

I just think part of this is because a lack of gray hairs as the old engineers retire and the youngers believe they know better. I heard the same thing about syncro-scopes in substations (we never use them).

In the wake of 911, many radio stations in NYC regretted their decision to not have a secondary transmitting site.

Sort of same thing here. Regret what happened, but can't justify fixing the problem.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Our local previously oil fired now gas only plant removed the upper burners to provide over fire air to reduce NOx emissions. They cut up the tank farm to make room for additional combined cycle plants. We can't blame all of this on a lack of gray hairs.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

A house with central-fired, forced convection gas heaters (the most common by far for HVAC systems) MUST have AC power to run the circulation fan to pass heated air out through the house. If no fan-induced motion, the gas heaters trip off on local overheating safeguards around the burners.

In our house, my forced draft fan is usually automatically cycled on by the relay and contacts for the burners. But it can also be powered from my inverter and 12V battery stack, from an outside AC power supply like a generator, or from the generator to the split-house emergency breaker panel.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

3

Quote:


I just think part of this is because a lack of gray hairs as the old engineers retire and the youngers believe they know better.
A room full of grey haired engineers have no chance against one bald MBA.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

If it weren't for the young know-betters, the retiree-consultancy industry would go bankrupt in a matter of hours!

Andrew H.
www.MotoTribology.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The only way this will ever get fixed is house by house. Buy a generator and a wood (pellet?) burning fireplace.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Here in SoCal (at least) most all gas-furnaces don't even have pilot-lights as they are equipped with electronic ignition systems. And with the safety systems, without power, you can't even light it manually.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (davefitz )

...will lead to a large surge in electricity demand as soon as the ambient air temp drops below 35 F , the bottom limit for an electric heat pump.
Just a minor correction that this doesn't have to be true anymore. I just happened to check Mitsubishi's site (just as an example), and they're claiming 100% capacity down to -5°F (I didn't look to see how it drops off after that). Whether someone in Texas would opt for a model with that capability is another story...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (1503-44)

The only way this will ever get fixed is house by house. Buy a generator and a wood (pellet?) burning fireplace.

My current tentative plan for my house is heat pumps, solar panels and battery backup (i.e. Tesla wall). I've only just started to research the feasibility and performance of such a setup, but in concept it seems more resilient and efficient than my current dependence on a propane furnace powered by the grid. If this type of home energy setup was more commonplace, would that build more overall resilience to the system and less dependence on centralized power plants? It's not my area of expertise so I'll defer to others who know better, but it would be nice in theory if we could head in a direction towards more decentralized energy production and resilience.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I have a newer gas furnace and it works exactly as described by others. You have to have electric power. My wife and I sleep on a waterbed. You can sleep on one of those about one day without electric power. I bought a portable generator during a power outage from our 2007 ice storm. I'll never be without one again. They are a wonderful thing to have, but trust me, you'd trade one for line power in a heartbeat :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

One of my previous houses was built in 1946 in Lakewood, California. It had a had a sub-floor natural gas furnace and a millivolt thermostat (powered by the pilot light thermocouple). The heat rose through a floor grate. Completely silent and extremely reliable. I'm sure it is still working well today. A ceiling fan did help to keep the floor warm but was not needed for heat.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Compositepro, house I grew up in had one of those. They worked great, no electric power needed. They were very common around here, and still exist in some houses. Good luck getting one worked on though.

Just about everybody anybody knows from that time has a story about stepping on the grate barefoot some cold morning :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

My on demand water heaters are ignited by 2 x C cells, no pilots, but you'll need something else for powering air heater fans.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I have a reasonably large solar setup with a 6.4kWh battery. I also have a 8.5 kw ground heat pump which is much more efficient than the air heatpumps. It pulls about 2kw to output 8 kw of heat. So can get about 5 hours heating out of the battery when the outside temp is below -10 . Most air heat pumps will shut down at -20 deg C anyway and below -10 deg C the efficiency drops through the floor.

But what you can do is have an inverter that has critical loads backup off battery. Which would run your propane furnace and power the pumps and fans etc.

The USA solar lot have a lot of fixes and fiddles and tax credits, you have to start digging through the options. But what I can see is that solar is extremely expensive in the USA and most of it is due to labour and getting all the approvals done. Have a google for SMA inverters.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

In Sweden we do have gas heating as an option, I would say there are 3 main basic choice to begin with for heating a house here.
Pure electricity or by water, or air heating or some combination of dose.
I myself would choose water heating just because it gives you more options for what kind of electrical or heat source you can use.
And I would also make it underfloor heating, it reduces the amount of heating needed.
For heating of the water you can use everything from the grid to everything els that can produce electricity or hot water, as a ground pump, solar cells both water or electric and there are even wood/pelts burners for this now.
Off course in all cases there need to be a batteri backupsystem if the grid or main electric power source fails.

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
BTW if you go water ground heatpump and are willing to put a vertical environmental pipe in its relatively cheap and easy to get passive aircon cooling in the summer. And no refrigerants to deal with. And the only power you use is 100 watts for the pump and what every the fan coils need. In my case 70 watts each.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

IMO, unless your local conditions regularly fall to minus 25 or minus 30, your opinions should be kept to yourself. Canadians regularly deal with low climatic temperatures and even then we can get ourselves into difficulties. Opinions thrown around and extrapolated by less than knowledgeable people can easily kill yourself and your neighbor.

The Texans having problems today typically have minimal insulation in their houses and their serious infrastructure is open to the elements because of pressure differentials that would occur during hurricane season.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

When I was nine years old the house my parents had built was rather small and was heated by a floor mounted, oil-fired, furnace with a single large grate where the heat came out. The house was a single story and relatively well insulated (this was in Northern Michigan) but the bedrooms were always cold. Now this was very rural and the power company was a customer-owned cooperative and when I was about 13 or 14, my father had the power company install electric heat (by then he had added on to the house and that floor furnace was just not cutting it). Now to back-up the electric base-board heating system, we had a Franklin Stove in the family room and my mother still did most all her cooking on a full sized, wood fired, kitchen stove (she had a small apartment sized electric stove next to the much larger wood stove, that she used in the summer).

An interesting side note, over the years the cooperative electric company is no longer technically owned by the current network of customers, but the people, like my parents, who bought into the co-op when they had their house built some 60+ years ago, they never sold their 'shares'. My parents have been gone now for over 20 years, but as executor of their estate, that 'ownership' was transferred to me, and every year, just like clockwork, I get a dividend check. The last couple of years it's been around $65, but there have been times when it was as high as $130, but never less than $45. I probably should check sometime to see what the shares are worth if I were to cash-out. I assume that they would buy them back.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

miningman
If your want your opinion to matter, I would suggest that you be more specific in what and who it is you are criticizing.
Otherwise it will just be whining.
I think most people have enough self-insight and self-preservation drive to decide or realize for themselves what information works for where they live or not.
And if not then most countries have building standards that regulate things like this, you are usually not allowed to do whatever you want, so I do not really se your problem.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

This just in :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Texans are tough and expendable... it's a price you pay for being tough...bigsmile

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Not just Texas, my town, Tulsa, OK, has had rolling blackouts the last few days. Not sure the exact cause, but safe to say demand exceeded supply. The utility (American Electric Power) has asked us to turn down the thermostats, un plug unused devices, etc, blah, blah. So far it has missed me but I don't mind saying that my plan is, if notified I am turning my t-stat up to 80 while the power lasts. Get the house good and warm before I'm blacked out.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Texas is getting heat for causing the outage (unjustly).)


Didn't know that... I thought Texas was not connected to a grid and that was the cause of their problems... don't know... only two guys from Texas, I ever met were on a sawmill project in northern Ontario... I asked them if there was any truth to the rumour that Clinton (Bill) was going to cut Alaska in half and make Texas the third largest state... the one replied, "There's nothing that *sshole could do that would surprise me." They were great guys...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

There were tremendously high spot prices for power, and there will be a suspicion that the same tricks that were used in the 2001 califonia power crisis were being used to force the price of power to spike up to crazy levels. Some plants will make more money in 3 days then in a 3 month period.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (dik)


Texans are tough and expendable... it's a price you pay for being tough...

Apparently the ex-governor of Texas, Rick Perry, of recent Energy Secretary fame, thinks three days without power, in the middle of a 100-year winter weather event, is a small price for Texans to pay if it keeps the Federal government out of the state:

Perry says Texans willing to suffer blackouts to keep feds out of power market

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/energy/a...

I wonder if he thinks Texans need to be 'protected' from Federal disaster aid as well?

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

[not politics] Let's keep the discussion related to causes. Perry did not cause this outage nor was in a position for his policies to affect it.

On your note about the CA situation, funny because my parents are finally looking to take a step forward (they refuse to use LED lights in their house) and they're getting a tankless water heater. My mother wants to buy a small gas generator just to run the controls on the water heater but I suggested otherwise due to the inherent problems associated with gasoline engines in standby service. We found a battery unit that only comes on when it senses flow and I think that's brilliant but it wouldn't work at the temperatures being experienced in Texas current. AGM batteries have their limits.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

My comment about Rick Perry was simply providing substance for dik's comment about the resilience of Texans and what they're willing to withstand for the honor of being seen as "tough".

Besides, several other people have already injected political commentary into this thread and I didn't see you say anything about what they had posted.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

just curoius (not trying to make political statement)

How would the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission be of any assistance to prevent current situation.

it was couple decades past, but Texas Steam Turbine plants were more concerned with having their control regulate grid frequency and the biggy was to have emergancy over design capibilty while maintaing frequency regulation.

it was only during the last years I worked that NERC starting even surveying about actual steam turbine controls response

Maybe they have become laxed with the public desire to go green

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I suspect that if you're not connected to the grid... you're on your own...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

2
Interesting that you mention FERC. They had a very prophetic take on a situation very similar to what's happening now, back in 2011. Note that I just now posted the item below in another forum, but since you brought it up, it seems appropriate that I post a copy of it here:

There was a similar, although not as extensive, but still a significant interruption of electrical service in Texas during the winter of 2011, which took out a major part of the state's power grid under conditions similar to what's been seen this past week. After that incident, a 400 page report was prepared by FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission) and provided to the state of Texas and to ERCOT (The Electric Reliability Council of Texas), which highlighted the problems with the lack of winterizing the power infrastructure including, but not limited to, natural gas pipe lines and power generation facilities, including the state's four nuclear power plants (note that at the time, there was negligible wind and solar generating capacity connected to the state's grid). The primary conclusion of the report was that the failures were caused by a lack of proper concern and preparation for winter weather conditions and that without sufficient investment in mitigating the shortcomings and weaknesses in the power grid, the generating facilities, and the supply infrastructure for delivering fuel, primarily gas and oil, that this would be a recurring problem.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (and they're getting a tankless water heater.)


Is that one of the 'inline' heaters that heat on demand... so common in Europe? As far as LEDs causing sterility... there are too many people, anyway.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (the failures were caused by a lack of proper concern and preparation for winter weather conditions and that without sufficient investment in mitigating the shortcomings and weaknesses in the power grid)


Looks like things haven't changed... this 'freaky' weather could become more common...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I recall the events. . .
OK, so FERC could have forced the utilities to impliment what they should have done. My impression back then, the Texas ERC was more strigent than NERC

when verifing actual steam turbine respone were as per NERC guidlines, I never heard plant managers discussing concenquences if not met.
(But that was the time frame I quit)

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

But I thought that was Rick Perry's argument for having a totally isolated, Texas-only, power grid, so that they didn't HAVE to listen to the Fed's.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

the mentioned SCRAM of STP#1, while root cause has not been provided, assuming from what little know, I would bet instrument line freezing was the primary reason.

NOW, a nuclear plant would fall under NRC oversight (I can't imangine TX got out of that Fed). So any Fed recomendation to prevent freezing should have been implimented (with penealities if not)

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I understood that the root problem was that the Texas regulators did not recognize the importance of winterization and refused to allow the energy companies to recoup their expenses.
If the regulators will not allow expenditures to be charged as either operating expense or capital expense, then the money will not be spent.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Ok, say you're a 500MW plant and you've missed 10 hours of a $9000 market because you didn't properly winterize. That's $45 million in foregone revenue. For 10 hours. Gone. How much winterization would have it taken to earn that $45 million? I'm willing to bet that 500MW plant could have stayed on-line for far less than $45 million of incremental costs. Even if most of that had been spent on getting their gas supplier to harden that system. Everybody that wasn't running in a $9000 market was losing the life cycle cost game big time. They may have won the first cost prize battle, but they've certainly lost the life cycle war. Utility systems (utilities as such plus IPPs plus etc.) are not suitable to a first cost analysis, but must be evaluated on a life cycle basis. Texas sized losses.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

On demand "tankless" water heaters do not require gasoline powered generators to run the two manually set knob controls. One sets the "fire height" and the other (as best as I can tell) sets the water flow rate that lights the flame. No external power source is required. Snap in 2 x C cells. That is all.

Not sure about recent trends, but no single family house in TX had anything but gas central heat and electric cooling, or a fireplace and evaporative "desert" cooler.

ERCOT's daily real time Capacity (red) & Demand (green) curves


Does that graph update when this page is reloaded? I think it should, if it has had time to change..
[img http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/main/currentDayFo...
I think this one will update too. The graphs above seem to be static or rather "frozen".


There is no such thing as "winterization" design in TX! bandito This hat is the best you'll get. What's worse on a more common basis is that they won't put up a sunshade either. Except over the bosses' pickup. Speaking of pickup, Dont pick up no wrench in August.

Actually, it was the new demands created by all the Californian immigrants that caused this problem! jester2

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

dik Tugboat

Is that one of the 'inline' heaters that heat on demand... so common in Europe?
Was about to ask about what that is?
Never heard about it.

As far as LEDs causing sterility... there are too many people, anyway.
???? surprise
Free contraceptives ?
I hope you are joking.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

It is basically a simple gas fired heat exchanger. Nothing else. No hot water storage tank. Cold water passes through a coil above the flame and comes out hot. Not using hot water right now. No problem, there is none. When you turn on a tap, water pressure reduces at the coil and triggers gas valve to open and 2 C cells to throw a spark into the gas. Poof. Hot water. Turn the tap off, water pressure rises at the coil and the gas valve closes. Flame off. Naturally both electric and gas companies do not like these things, but I really do.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Redsnake they are very common in central Europe. The Germans went that way some 20 years ago now although they tend to use electric.

They had a huge spate of Legionaries' disease linked with changes in building reg's and big hot water tanks and max water supply temp. To keep the supply temp below 40 deg the water tank sits at perfect Legionaries' breeding temp. If you wanted to keep the old tank setup you either had to get a controller to boost the temp to 70 degs every week for a couple of hours or get a temp mixer. So the solution was these heaters which go on all the hot taps so they only have to run 1 water line to each wet room. They are ok for kitchen and most taps but utterly rubbish if you have a bath. The electric ones are a pain in the bum they seem to last about 3-5 years and then you have to swap them out.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

In England I was told that they used to call them 'Geezers' or something like that. I used to stay in this small hotel (it only had 12 rooms) across from our office in Cambridge (the door of the hotel and the door to the building where our software development office was, was literally straight across from each other, with only a narrow, brick-paved street to cross, which even in the rain, you could make it without getting too wet). Anyway, before you could take a shower, you had to remember to turn on the gas to make sure that there would be hot water. Of course, you than had to remember to turn it off afterwards. I was told that in some places, you had to put a couple of coins in a 'meter' to turn on, and of course, pay for the gas. At least in that situation, when the money ran out, the gas turned off by itself.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Okay thanks, Our new water heaters always come with the automatic funktion of overheating the water periodically.
Or you run them on 70 degrees all the time and mix it with cold water after the heater, off course there is a small risk of legionella in the pips then but I am not shore if it common though.
And as far as I know you can only get legionella infection from showering or breading in the water vapor down your lungs not by drinking the water.

Best regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Sounds about right John I can remember them but most of the UK has gone combi condensing boiler now.

Central Europe doesn't tend to have the mains domestic gas supply network that we have in the UK. And the post war buildings are not really suited to running extra pipes into later on. Showers are the norm but baths seem to have come back into fashion.

But in UK pretty much nobody drinks from the hot water tap where as in Germany my colleagues did it all the time. We also used to have a cold water tank somewhere high up but they did away with that years ago.

My heatpump does the same. Every Monday night on my 250ltr tank it normally sits at 50 deg C . I have a temp mixer as well but its not required in the local regs.


RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

They will fill a bath, if you purchase one with adequate flow capacity. They come in various sizes.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I am sure they will, also suspect the gas American versions are significantly more hot rod than a EU electric ones on the end of a 16 amp 230V radial which gives you max 3.5kW.

I think you can get 45 kW gas ones which can do 20 litres a min to fill a 150 ltr bath.. Which is more than 22mm copper pipe can handle anyway.

The single phase tankless electric heaters I have seen. I have a higher flow rate with my first of the day pee in the morning.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
And coming back to miningman's comment about even places that normally have -20 to -30 temps every year we screw up.

My excuse is I am Scottish and used to dealing with -5 min.

I did all the right stuff when I built my house. Water pipes away from external walls. Put them in between floors put them on supports put 15mm of insulation round them lagging.

One pair of pipes needed to go down the external wall to the shower room sink. Ok wood wall 50mm supports with 50mm rockwool. Pipe lagging..... After 3 weeks of -20 it froze when it went to -35 one night.

There was a metal screw through the wall about 1 cm away from the metal pipe support and even copper pipe couldn't keep up with the heat transfer. Brother in law is just laughing saying see if you had gone for the cheap plastic pipe supports like the rest of us it wouldn't have frozen...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I changed the previous owner's installation from a 6 to a 15 L/m and added a half-bath with another 12 L/m unit there. I also removed some flow restrictors in the pipes. I think he didn't want his wife to take baths. They use butane/propane. With the climate here, I spend more on mobile/internet/Netflix than on total energy consumed, including electricity for the house and petrol for the car.

After the week long freeze in Houston '83, I electric heat traced a couple of pipes I had running across the attic that froze. Never froze again.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Redsnake; Tankless water-heaters are the devil's own.

I have never seen one that runs on batteries as BigInch describes. All the ones I see run on the mains power supply with gas as the heating source. So there you lose yet another staple on a power outage.

When there is a water crisis and some fool who installed a tankless water heater and by definition water-storageless-system comes calling with a cup for water I'll run them off as too short sighted to continue propagating in the human gene pool.

I wouldn't dream of losing 60 gallons of instantly available potable water just to save a few dollars a year on gas.

I've also had to fight tankless water heaters which can waste a bunch of energy because you have to flow more hot water than you need simply to keep the dumb things lit. I have customers that wrestle with this constantly. One poor lady has to run her bathroom sink while showering as the flow restricted shower heads can't pass enough water to keep the on-demand on. Can you imagine!! Turn the bathroom sink on then get in the shower!?

During a moment of stupidity I bought one, brought it home and discovered I'd have to tear out my house gas lines and change them up to 1" from 3/4" or when the tankless water heater and the furnace came on at the same time they'd both crap-out on low gas pressure. On top of that I'd have to tear out the 3" flue and replace it with a 6" flue. I boxed it all up and took it back.

Instead I put in a 60 gallon tanked heater with a 65kBTU burner instead of the typical 30kBTU. It gets with the program at about 1/3 of what an on-deamd would require. If I catch the heater at a low temp point when starting a shower and it lights off I have to adjust the shower temp down a couple of times as it heats faster than a shower uses it. It's great.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

My graph posting isn't updating either. Link shows two rather big expected cutbacks will happen in Houston today.

Tankless heaters.
You have to get the proper capacity!!!
My bottled gas supply is 2m away through a 1/2" rubber hose.
Work like a charm.

In many regions in Spain, you can get into remote locations off grid rather quickly. There are lots of small solar cell installations and bottled gas water heaters, not to save the planet, but simply because of lack of grid access.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Itsmoke)

I'll run them off as too short sighted to continue propagating in the human gene pool.
lol Sorry could not resist, I am a bit of a darwinist myself. winky smile

The only thing a knew about those electric shower heaters was that they is common in Asia.
There was a case when a Swedish guy was electrocuted on holiday and died when taking a shower due to bad electricals.

If you are connected to the official water grid here its always self flowing, there has to be a long power cut out if you are going to became out of water.
Can't remember that ever happening here.
If you have your own well it's different.
I could always boil water on my grill if a was out of electricity, but it almost never happens in town, max up to an hour maybe 3 or 4 times a year, the most annoying is having to set the time on clocks without battery backup.

Well here is an off the grid option.
Cheap to buy.
Cheap to install.
Saves on electricity bills and gym card fees.
Works in all weathers.
More fun then other bathtubs.
Only down side you have to cut down one tree and replant two, preferably pine or spruce (binds more CO2). winky smile



Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

FERC is at least going to investigate "FERC, NERC to Open Joint Inquiry into 2021 Cold Weather Grid Operations February 16, 2021" https://www.ferc.gov/news-events/news/ferc-nerc-op...

The FERC report John R Baler cites from the event cites "Outages and curtailments During the Southwest Cold Weather Event Feb 1-5 2011
https://www.ferc.gov/legal/staff-reports/08-16-11-...

An event on January 17, 2018 created similar trouble in the Midwest (but Texas dodged this one).
https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=...

I wounder how much of the Natural Gas supply was put off line by the rolling blackouts? That was one of the findings in the 2011 report. That might be important here as some of the generating limitations are from natural gas supply limitations.

Fred

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Any news on the nuke with water feed issues?

I know its second Gen and should have a torus and emergency cooling etc and it will still be fully powered so shouldn't have any issues.

Bottled gas is useless here for 3 months of the year unless you store it internally inside the heating area. I could have had it in the cellar with a burner linking into the heatpump system but it was to much of a pain in the bum.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Nothing on NRC's website yet.

FERC, NERC to Open Joint Inquiry into 2021 Cold Weather Grid Operations
https://www.nerc.com/news/Pages/FERC,-NERC-to-Open...

Redsnake
I would love to be supplied from a self flowing water supply system. Here on the coastal plane of Virginia, just like in Texas it is too flat to do that. The supply consists of wells, and surface water collection, all of it needs to be pumped.

Sewage has the same problem, to get it to treatment it needs to be pumped and sent by pipe line to treatment.

Here water and sewage have generator backup to keep the systems functioning. Backup power became a necessity here in 2003 following Hurricane Isabel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Hurricane... It took the utility 3 days to get the bulk power system here on line (trees blown into the 115kv lines) and more than 10 days to get all of the customers on line.

In the current storm since icing has been widespread, not just Texas, there likely will be some lines pulled down by ice buildup. Hopefully not including parts of the bulk power system.

Fred

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

2
I'm getting a little weary from reading this thread.

This isn't the first time there has been a major power disruption that affected large areas and millions of people. It's a little bit of a 'perfect storm' because it happened during a particularly bad weather event. Others have occurred during hot weather that is more survivable for most people.

I haven't found any technical detail anywhere that's of value to indicate what really initiated the problem. It's too early to blame things on regulation/deregulation, Rick Perry, reliability of wind turbines, hurricane building codes or the like. It's all speculation at this point. I'm willing to wait on the investigations and findings to see if real germane legislation will emerge to prevent a reoccurrence.

Power grids, like everything else, will always be less than 100% reliable.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I'd take reasonable rolling black-outs over over-priced power every time after living thru the CA debacle back a few years ago.

Not having a day or two of rotating blackouts cost the CA rate payers a fortune. I remember our rates doubled for about 2 years just because someone (ISO?) decided to massively overpay for those 2 days instead of going for rolling black-outs. It sure wasn't worth it.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
The initial blame it on the renewables is pretty much out the window now... Which is where I picked it up....

I am sure they will blame it on IT and a computer bug eventually....

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

BI; I visited a remote place in Mexico about 20 years ago. If you wanted a shower you broke-up one of those slatted fruit crates and jammed about a third of it into the bottom of a weird boxy water heater and lit it with some paper and match. About 20 minutes later you had nice hot water. It was pretty impressive though probably environmentally poor.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

FacEngrPE
The supply consists of wells, and surface water collection, all of it needs to be pumped.


Well it is pumped here to, but to water towers in high locations.
Even though they try to use Newton as much as possible.
All sewage is done by Newton..
So it will stop coming when the tower is empty if the power is not back on.
I would guess most of them have reserv power at least the ones supplying hospitals etc.

Bet Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical) (OP) 18 Feb 21 12:37)


The initial blame it on the renewables is pretty much out the window now... Which is where I picked it up....

Sorry. . .

Old "dinosaurs" can't take a liken to those new fangled stuff.

Steam, rotating inertia and coal still bring back memories of my "glory days"

(besides, I am afraid of heigths so NO WAY would I have worked wind generator)

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Gov Abbot of TX blames AOC & renewables. "Methinks the govna' doth protest too much."
Im betting he'll walk home with that rooster and this originated at the gas fields with wells offline due to low price and other operators that didn't light up the well heaters in time to prevent freeze ups. Hydrates can start appearing at low 40s°F

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Bah you can always spot when a politician is in the deep poo and are trying to lie there way out of it before they drown...

You can see their lips move.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I'd rather read a few post with politics somewhat related to the issue then over a dozen posts in a row completely off topic...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Guessing here - FERC and NERC will say this is the 7th (?) time this kind of event has occurred since 1975, for the same reason in Texas. Not sure if the next report will also be a toothless Lion.

Here is where the odd constitutional commerce clause is called.
ERCOT is a Texas entity doing business inside Texas. Do the interconnects (DC Tie) put it into interstate commerce? That might give FERC and NERC some play in texas.

Redsnake
We used to have water towers here (erected ~ 1910). They were mostly demolished due to age related problems. The volume in the water towers with respect to demand now basically just provides some buffering on the pressure control.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Alistair_Heaton)

You can see their lips move.

It's all pots calling kettles black anyway. They're all the same that way.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Here’s a great write-up which explains the function and history of the “grid” in Texas and how it is contributed to this failure.

It’s by Julie A. Cohn who is a historian of energy, technology and the environment, affiliated with both the Center for Energy Studies at Rice University’s Baker Institute and the University of Houston’s Center for Public History.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/02/17/...
Or https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.co...
Given all of that independence, I find it remarkable that anyone could even begin to think about pointing a finger outside of Texas.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

As for politics noevil I’ve heard Ted Cruz Cruz has departed on a fact finding mission to see how other regions are managing this situation. First stop... Cancun!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Pay wall.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

He'd best be careful, Texas has cut gas supplies to MX.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I see that the outages are at less than a million. And Vestas is laying off people.

It looks like more of the issue is gas wells freezing up. And it shows up in the electric because it is a fuel.

But there are also problems in SPP which is part of the Eastern grid (headquartered in Arkansas).

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (water pressure reduces at the coil and triggers gas valve to open and 2 C cells to throw a spark into the gas. Poof. Hot water. Turn the tap off, water pressure rises at the coil and the gas valve closes. Flame off. Naturally both electric and gas companies do not like these things,)


Thanks...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Was about to ask about what that is?
Never heard about it.)


They've been available in Europe for a decade or so... thought it was neat. A programmer acquaintance in Newcastle has them in his house.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

For what it's worth:

Michigan renewable energy more resilient to cold than frozen Texas wind turbines

Knowing Michigan’s weather, DTE makes sure the equipment is able to handle temperatures as low as -30 degrees Celsius.


https://www.abc12.com/2021/02/17/michigan-renewabl...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

If the gas lines really are freezing up at around minus 20C, I have to ask how do the gas suppliers in northern Alberta manage during periods of minus 40 that can last for weeks at a time???

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

They can manage to keep the line heaters lit up. Texans get ambushed by cold weather.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

They can be winterized, that's what the FERC investigation from 2011 recommended, however ERCOT does not allow any of the generating companies which supplies the Texas grid, nor the natural gas suppliers, to include the cost of upgrades and maintenance in the operating expenses which are used to determine the price of power sold to the state's customers. Those expenses have to come off the bottom-line of the various private companies, thus they don't do upgrades and they keep their maintenance to an absolute minimum. And that 2011 FERC report is exhibit 'A' when it comes to Texas Republicans making their case, like Rick Perry did yesterday, for keeping the Feds out of their hair.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Maintenance; Just like the dentists. Pay me now, or pay me later x5.

There does appear to be some kind of problem with gas supplies.

Abbott orders gas shippers not to export gas to the States.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/ar...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Bottled propane gas cylinders you still need power if you keep it outside...

One of these https://www.amazon.com/Powerblanket-GCW100-Insulat... Not surprisingly it says it is out of stock!

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

If Texas decided to tie to the eastern or western grids, to get to where amounts of power useful to mitigate this outage would be a major project. The connection would probably need to extend rather far into the neighboring systems.

Link

The Pacific DC Intertie has a capacity of 3,100 megawatts, the Texas ERCOT shortfall (see charts above) was about 20,000 megawatts.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Littleinch , I'm guessing you are aware that the temperature at which propane boils is minus 42 centigrade. Unless the US supply of propane is contaminated with other material , you dont need any auxillary heat at say minus 35 or minus 38. I dont think anywhere in Texas got that cold lately , so theres something else going on down there.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Not sure how accurate that grid map was in your link. There was a news crew in El Paso earlier this week reporting that city and surrounding area did NOT lose power because that Western 'tip' area of Texas is actually on the Western national grid. It's not part of ERCOT, at least that's what the local authorities in El Paso told the news crew. I mean the power was ON, so...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Oh yes, I know that, but the reality is that with the auto refrigeration that goes on as the pressure above the Propane goes down the propane pressure falls to levels that the regulator isn't sized for and hence you get low flow or low pressure and the burners just don't work or only have a very small flame. If it's minus 20 odd with wind chill, there just isn't enough heat available in the air to heat the propane enough and the liquid temperature just continues to fall.

I had a little propane burner with a can about the size of an aerosol and one cold night out camping noticed it was a weedy flame. Took the can off which nearly froze to my hand, stuck it under my coat for about 10 minutes to warm up and hey presto - big flames again.

-20C for propane only gets you about 2 bar pressure. Normal operating is about 6-7 bar. Lots of "LPG" contains Butane as well which has a higher boiling point.

And you need a lot of hot water (from where?) as you need to heat up the steel cylinder as well as all the liquid propane.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

LI is correct. Butane & propane are funny like that.

Water? From the water heater of course. My bottles only contain 17 kg. Not too big to heat.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Extreme weather events throw up all sorts of oddball things no one really thought about before.

Some years ago one of the major UK gas import terminals in an area which very rarely got any appreciable snow supplying >30% of the gas supply nearly shut down because the condensate trains taking the condensate away couldn't get through because of snow.

Roads were blocked with snow so you couldn't truck it and they had dismantled the flare system years ago as it wasn't needed / environmentally unacceptable to flare it.

So a little thought about "waste" product nearly shut them down. Only saved by relocating a special snow clearing train from Scotland to clear the lines and get a couple of tanker trains in just before tank top.

Funnily thought the siding was just before the local station. The locals were not amused that the snow plough train stopped at the siding and left them isolated for another week until the snow melted.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (David)

Ok, say you're a 500MW plant and you've missed 10 hours of a $9000 market because you didn't properly winterize.
I agree that is a valid post, but MBA's are notoriously short sighted.
I'll see your silver haired engineer and raise you a pointy headed MBA. grin

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Little inch, I wont get into technical discussions but I guess we have somewhat different experiences with propane at low temperatures. I dont know the specifics of the regulators we we were using , but I have clear recollections of northern Saskatchewan, where the temperature dropped to minus 42/44 overnite. We knew there was an impending problem so our plumbers ran a couple of extension cords out to our 1000 gallon propane pigs, found a couple of 150 watt heat lamps , installed the lamps under the pigs with a bit of fibreglass insulation and all us office workers remained warm and toasty. Granted a bit different today in Texas if they've got no power but even that wouldnt be insurmountable for Canadian ingenuity.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I like that condensate train example. Good example for "designing for climate change" scenarios and how all of a sudden you realise that you now have a complex system. By my definition, one where all variables sre apparent only in hindsight.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

3

Quote:

This isn't the first time there has been a major power disruption that affected large areas and millions of people. It's a little bit of a 'perfect storm' because it happened during a particularly bad weather event. Others have occurred during hot weather that is more survivable for most people.

My thoughts throughout this thread have been similar, but I take it a step further and wonder why this is even considered "bad weather" much less newsworthy. Alarmists claiming this to be an emergency were saying that the south doesnt insulate their homes like up north which would cause all manner of tragedy...yet we havent seen tragedy. Having lived many places ranging from Alaska to the middle-east, in TX and now in Detroit where we have many large trailer parks, I call bunk to the hysteria. Many homes and buildings in TX are insulated significantly better than we do up here bc of the (higher) cost of cooling and the much lower humidity allowing better sealing via spray foam and other methods. No doubt there are some poorly built homes/trailers that are cold and without power in TX, so some residents have been inconvenienced by having to stay with a friend or neighbor for a day or two - whoop-dee-doo. The vast majority tho simply put on a sweater like the rest of the country when we experience a winter outage, and there are many places like here in Detroit where a few million people spend several days without power almost every winter. Personally, I believe the heat much more of a risk to life and limb than the cold despite personally having suffered frostbite, but to each their own bc the continental 48 dont see much for extremes in either case.

Interestingly enough tho, there does seem to be a direct correlation between extreme alarmism and political posting, almost as if some folks here are looking for excuses to smear others.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

If you need to evaporate any reasonable amount of propane, even in industrial plant quantities you are going to use a fired propane boiler. The tank surface area is too small to keep the pressure up, and it gets worse as the liquid evaporates (less surface area to transfer heat in).


I am only going to stand behind the bulk power system diagram a bit, it is NPR's. The point is that this system upset created an absolutely huge deficit. Transferring in that much bulk power from the eastern and western grids (Mexico does not seem to likely to help much) is a huge task.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
miningman I think its a volume to surface area thing of the cylinder linked with the surface area that vapour can come off when upright . The pigs are horizontal and quite fat. A single cylinder here and they are the red ones of pure propane won't work either below about -15 C . So the locals either take them inside or have a bank of 4 of them and/or they are set at a 45 deg angle to the ground when they are half full.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Preception is always relative to the norms of the region. Saudis like to BBQ in the rain.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Gas exports to MX have been cut to 40%.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

And yet less than a month ago , Mr Biden cancelled the proposed Keystone pipeline from Canada towards Texas. I wonder if todays events will cause a rethink ?? Probably not , to much like taking political responsibilty for a self inflicted error

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well Natural gas also called fossil gas seems to contain a lot of different gases is a naturally occurring hydrocarbon gas mixture consisting primarily of methane, but commonly including varying amounts of other higher alkanes, and sometimes a small percentage of carbon dioxide, nitrogen, hydrogen sulfide, or helium and also water vapor.
So at what temperature it freezes probably depends on the mixture.

Well it is a necessity to have more ingenuity you further north you get, you would not survive otherwise.
So in your Canadian example I would bet on the silver haired Canadian engineer and not the pointy headed MBA. winky smile

But it is also true that it is easier to protect your self from cold weather then from extrem heat.
When the air temperature is higher then your body temp it starts geting critical since the air cooling dose not work anymore especially when the humidity is high, because then there will be no evaporation that can cool down the body either.

Best Regards A




“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Nowhere to put all that Keystone oil. The TX oil price would drop because you'd have to pay somebody to drive it around in 1000 road tankers per day until you get more room in the tanks to unload it. Cushing OK has been topped off pretty much since 2014.

NatGas freeze depends mostly on gas hydrate formation temperature. Can start forming at 40F +/- 5°C.

They are not just picking on Keystone!
EU Texas politicians Perry, Cruz, Cornyn and Abbott are the same guys putting sanctions on Nordstream II pipeline. How do you like them making energy security decisions that affect you!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Took the can off which nearly froze to my hand,)


The expansion of the gas would make it colder, too...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I think the Keystone pipeline was for heavy crude, not gas.
Like it or not it was political, and so the oil will travel by other pipelines, or by rail, at a greater cost.
Who really won on that one?

So is the US still exporting LNG?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Good example for "designing for climate change" scenarios)


In particular if you are modifying a system that had not considered any upgrades... maybe really challenging.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (I wonder if todays events will cause a rethink ??)


Hope not... Keystone was a bad idea...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Keystone is dead as a doornail. Not political. It is PURE ECONOMICS.
Trump gave it 4yrs of mouth to mouth, but it was just another one of those alternate realities.
Nobody south of the 49th parallel (latitude) wants it. Probably including Canadians.
200 US shale oil producers filed for bankruptcy last year. Too much oil = low prices.
That oil will go to Asia via Transmountain Gateway Whatever, through BC.
Last time Cushing filled up was when US oil price went to $-30/bbl
Brokers and producers had "their fill" of that in a NY second.

US is normally exporting gas to Mexico and the world. Not today though.
There are some 20 LNG export facilities online now, or soon to be.
That is why the US is sanctioning the Russian Nordstream pipeline to EU.
US LNG shipping costs cannot compete in a fair market with cheap Russian gas via pipeline to Germany/EU.





RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The owners of the Keystone project really screwed up.
They lied, gave inaccurate forecasts, and tried to mislead regulators.
Their flawed submissions resulted in their permits being successfully challenged by First Nations and environmentalists.
The failed shortcuts cost millions.
Then the market shifted from crude and synthetic crude to bitumen.
You cannot pump bitumen without either heating it or diluting it.
Collection lines from SAGD projects must be heated but long pipelines pump DilBit.
Diluted Bitumen.
Depending on the choice of diluent the diluent may be 30% to 50% of the mix.
The diluent is typically returned to the source for reuse.
RailBit is only diluted 15% to 20%.
DRUBit is Diluent Removed Bitumen. No diluent.
DilBit is pumped to the loading facility and the diluent is removed and the DRUBit is loaded into the rail cars.
There are claims that rail transport of DRUBit is more economical than pumping DilBit.
I am sure that the XL managers are quite happy that Biden has bailed them out of a losing position.
Now they can blame Biden and the Democrats rather than having to face their shareholders and explain the millions lost on a venture that may have been a financial albatross in the event that the pipeline had been finished and they had to operate at very slim margins or at a loss to compete with rail and DRUBit.
By the way, Trump approved the pipeline when only four days in office.
XL had four years before Biden cancelled the permit.
(Disclaimer, There may be a little spin in this, but not much.)

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

All quite precisely true to my knowledge.
You can also pump it as an emulsion with hot water, but it gets really messy.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Adding insult onto injury:

Nearly 12 million Texans now face water disruptions. The state needs residents to stop dripping taps.

After enduring multiple days of freezing temperatures and Texans dripping faucets to prevent frozen pipes from bursting, cities across the state warned Wednesday that water levels are dangerously low, and it may be unsafe to drink.


https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/17/texas-wate...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

ya... and have the pipes freeze. My son was eMailing a Texan a couple of days back and suggested this in case they don't have sufficient frost protection... if the pipes are on top of grade, they keep getting hit with the lawnmower.bigsmile

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Now there's been complaints that most of the highways in Texas haven't been plowed yet. Well, it turns out that the Texas Highway Department only has 30 snowplows for the entire state, and most those are either in the panhandle or stationed along the Northern part of the state that borders Oklahoma and over toward Texarkana.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Apparently some of the private power companies who are part of the Texas grid, which is managed by ERCOT, are allowed to set the price they charge their own local customers. And some of them sell the power based on the instantaneous spot market for electricity. For example, one owner of a small shop near Dallas, who tracks her power usage on the net, noticed that she had been charged $450 for a single day's power, and within a couple of days, her bill was up another $2,500. When she contacted the power company to complain, they said that it wasn't a problem, that they would gladly set-up an easy-to-pay monthly plan until she paid off her balance.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Define a "small shop". That's only about 100kW over 24 hours at normal rates. A couple of welders, a few kilns, employees charging their Teslas in your parking lot could easily rack up numbers like that in a small shop.

That story is meaningless without context.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

As I understand it, the TX grid is designed as a supply /demand system that sees large swings in price as demand increases against a limited supply. The state declined federal oversight and the state board does not reward or even sanction spending money for excess base capacity or super bad weather, as it would necesarily raise prices. The weather induced price spikes or demand exceeding supply is not a new thing - they see it every year in the summer and not that seldom in the winter. This system rewards low cost production, hence the relatively large investment in solar and wind since they are lower cost than coal, natural gas and nuke, and TX does not have a lot of hydro or thermal.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

It was an apothecary shop, where she sells herbs, health food and scented candles.

I found another example from the same area, where a family got hit for $7,000 for only TWO DAYS of power, where last year they had paid only $330 for the entire month, and again, the provider offered to set-up a monthly payment schedule until they paid off the balance.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

What did Texas used to run on?

Here in Australia were rapidly switching to wind and solar and I worry about what will happen when the inevitably intermittency issues hit.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I simply don't believe what you are saying to be true, John. There are billing errors from time to time obviously the company is going to assume no error first and attempt to collect. In sure everything was resolved shortly after. Why do you keep your examples hidden, anyways?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

being just a insignificant worker in electrical generation, no one could explain how those extreme values or MW-hrs actually changed hands. I ASSUMED the end customers rate was SET by the state's comission (and adjusted couple times year) BUT that was if end service was provided by the original utility.
those extreme values were between the generation enities and thus effected their overall profit.

SO if an end customer purchased their power from a unregulated distrubtion company, maybe the outagous bills

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Actually the customers of this particular power company really only have themselves to blame since they had to sign a contract which stipulated that they agreed to pay for power at a price determined by real-time supply and demand, a true 'market-driven' arrangement. What this meant was that the price they paid was whatever the spot price was, plus a set margin which provided the profit for the power company. They probably weren't even a generator, rather they just bought power on a trading market set-up by the ERCOT and added their margin, and that's what the customer paid. This sort of deal is called a 'wholesale agreement', meaning that while the cost per kilowatt could vary literally all day long, that in the end, when times were good and the grid was running at peak efficiency, these customers where paying the absolute cheapest rate in the state. Now only a small number of power companies did business this way, because most people were willing to pay a bit more, basically buying at a fixed rate that would only vary over longer periods of time. Now when everything was working everyone was the winner, the so-called 'wholesale' customers were getting a great deal and the majority of the power companies were making a decent profit. However, for the past several days the 'spot market' for power in Texas was anything but normal, with price fluctuations measured in orders of magnitude. Now for most residential and even many commercial users, this doesn't really mean much. Sure the power companies have to eat the higher prices, for awhile at least, but then this could also account for some people losing power, if you cut your customers off, you don't have to pay the high price yourself for kilowatt hours that you never had to deliver. But of course, the 'wholesale' customers they had to pay the full freight. The good news is that there's absolutely no incentive for their power company to ever cut-off their customers because they're always going to get the money back plus their margin. But this does serve a purpose, showing what happens in a totally unregulated, purely market-driven business, selling a commodity directly to end-users.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Buying your retail power at the wholesale spot price. Far out, you’d have to be brave.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Tomfh. All depends on whether you knew that's what you were doing....

If the spot prices for the last 5 years hasn't varies by more than maybe 30% (I have no idea) but over the course of the year you normally end up cheaper than a fixed rate then people will choose it not really understanding the risk.

If this works like most markets I know, 80%+ of the capacity is fixed at a certain rate between generator and distributor. Its the spare power or gas which gets these huge spikes to allow distributors to balance the grid. If the energy is available they have to buy it to fulfill their contract with the grid.

In the UK the grid operator is allowed to buy energy to balance the grid and charge it to distributors depending on the difference between their firm supplies and the variable amounts actually used by their customers. I don't think any supplier offers a wholesale rate to domestic customers but business might take a chance.

All depends on whether you actually know on a day to day basis what the cost is and whether you have a chance to turn off your supply and be billed on a real time basis.

If not then these charges might be able to be challenged.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Tomfh)

Here in Australia were rapidly switching to wind and solar and I worry about what will happen when the inevitably intermittency issues hit.
Buying your retail power at the wholesale spot price. Far out, you’d have to be brave.

Well I would say that depends very much on how the system is put up and how large it is.
Here in the Nordic countries and the Baltics we have a electric broker market.
I have been buying for spot price a long time.
Of course there is a risk, but in the long run it's cheaper.
I might add my power consumption isn't high.

But our power providers in this market place are very varied as, water, wind, solar, biogas, nuclear and district heating plants (produces both hot water and electricity) mostly running on burning non-recyclable waste.
There are probably facilities that stil can run on coal, oil or nature gas to if necessary.
And we can also buy from the outside if needed.

All regulating on the power grid is made from one central place and the companies that are in this system has to agree of having a bit of backup power left that can be used when needed.
Off cours this system also builds on some government laws and company agreements.
And that the government is helping in investing in and supporting a grid that can handle this when necessary.

If Australia are setting up a similar system that can provide power from all over the country, it will never be no sun or no wind all over at the same time, I would not worry.
If they are thinking of going Texas's stile, I would.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The Texas system seems to have worked just fine, except for times of extremely cold weather. Hopefully, Australia will never experience that type weather, but with global warming, you never know...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Apparently the Texas grid limits the maximum price to $9000 per MWh.

The general worldwide switch to renewables, with their inbuilt potential for interruption and variation (low wind, cloudy skies) is prompting large scale development of energy storage systems.

Large single offshore systems can create grid instability - The UK black out a couple of years ago was prompted by loss of a huge offshore wind farm (1000+MW) as well as a trip at a couple of other generating plants, so they are not a distributed system. They also realised that they lost more power when they had a blackout as everyones solar panels stopped inputting into the grid!

Batteries are one, but also hydro storage systems. This lot want to use some sort of (very) heavy water to create storage in relatively low height difference conditions.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/austr...

LNG storage is another. Pumped underground gas storage in the UK collapsed once two or three massive LNG import terminals appeared as the biggest could supply 10% of the gas demand and some was held as peak shaving.

The UK grid is getting lots (dozens) of relatively small (<50MW) gas engine plants springing up with the main aim to be a standby power source being paid to stand by and generate for <500 or 1000 hrs a year at 30 seconds notice.

Grid companies need all these tools in their box to give us heat and power and is ever changing. Unfortunately politicians often just go for the short term sound bite or price reduction and ignore the 10 year plan put together by the Grid.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The current crisis in Texas should be viewed as an example of what could happen anywhere that is highly dependent on both natural gas and electricity. Each household should consider what they would have to do if they had no use of electricity or nat gas for a week in the winter, and munincipalities reconsider emergency backup plans for cascading failures of the water supply and sewer treatment systems. I do not think it is prudent to pretend that a similar crisis cannot happen elsewhere.

Severe earthquakes can disrupt the interstate gas pipeline system, and there have been recent scare stories of the impact of a solar CME coronal mass ejection event on large transformers or hacking of the grid control systems.

One positive aspect is that in Texas, where most households have at least one firearm, there has not yet been reports of home invasions peaking to get food and water. Maybe if another week goes by with no improvement.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well it was a lot of information about that before this pandemic, when you are use to having everything all the time , you do not really know what problems you will get when you do not have it anymore.
For example if ..

The heat disappears.
It becomes difficult to cook and store food.
Food and other goods can run out in the shops.
There is no water in the tap or toilet.
It is not possible to refuel.
Debit cards and ATMs do not work.
Mobile networks and the internet and TV do not work.
Public transport and other transport are at a standstill.
It will be difficult to get hold of medicines and medical equipment.

Most people don't have enough of what is needed to last a week with everything shut down which is recommended here, not me either.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
What sort of water pipes will they normally use in Texas?

BY the looks of it things will start warming up today.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I believe the thing with the water pipes, is not what they are made of, but the depth they would be buried at.
The typical frost line in Texas is very shallow, and likely in many places it would be desired that pipes be above the first water.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well in this reportage it's seems to be metal pipes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVB5SIUxCus

One thing I do not get, is, if I where in their situation I would have turned of the incoming water and opened the taps.
But they suggests that you are going to let the water flow constantly and try to heat the pipes. ponder

In one video there where water coming like rainfall from all the ceilings.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/burst-water-pipes-ad...

If the pipes burst in the ground it is not much you could do in moment, but what is happening inside your house is someting else.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
its a bit of both.

Cast iron pipes just explode if they are frozen plastic can take a bit of stretching.

We put our pipes 2 meters down or have a back flow to the pump to empty them.

Bet the hourly rate for a plumber is going to be record breaking as well next week.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

They changed the incoming water tube in my summer house, to PEM tube PN10 they say it can not burst by freezing.
If something breaks its more then likely the connections or fittings, we are not allowed hidden or buried ones.
Easy to fix ones the crises are over.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I believe water mains are breaking due to thermal stresses unrelated to complete freezing. It’s not thermal shock per se. But there are miles upon miles of metal pipe that’s contracting in ways it hasn’t experienced before or since it has handled many thermal cycles in the opposite direction. It’s a subtle, but effective means of damaging things.

On the household side, shutting off the incoming water and opening the taps is only effective if you have bleeders at the low points to drain off the water within the pipes. Otherwise you still wind up with enough confined water, that when it does freeze, it splits the pipes quite effectively.

As for Texans having adequate firepower on hand to be able to defend themselves from marauding bands of thirsty, dehydration-crazed poor people... as I understand it, most people of means have fled to the beaches of Mexico, leaving their supplies and poodles unprotected. I’d be more concerned in the potential for a surge in firearm suicides during all of this with roughly 70% more people who take their lives with a gun every year in the us than are murdered by one. Goodbye, cold cruel world.

Personally, if society collapsed to the point that I’d be in a position to have to shoot someone who needed a drink of water, I’d probably eat a round myself. But that’s just me.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
In some ways that's even worse than I was envisaging Spartan.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (This is a rare weather event,)


I sure hope you're correct... rather than, "This used to be a rare weather event,"

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

This thing over pricing is quite something. $9000/MWh equates to $9 per KWh which is what domestic customers get charged.

Don't know what extras get added but lets say $10/kWh. Normally it is what? 10c or 15c?/kWh

So about a hundred fold increase - WOW. So instead of maybe $10/day to heat your house etc it was $1000/day

I think gas prices did something similar.

To allow that much price gouging is just mind boggling.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (RedSnake)

...if I where in their situation I would have turned of the incoming water...

RS, it is unfortunate but, the fact is a) many people do not know how to turn off their water or other services for that matter, b) many people do not know why turning off their water would be useful, c) some people are not able to turn off their water.

My own service valve is very hard to turn, I do not have the sufficient tool operate it. Getting one is moving up on my priority list :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

No worries. "They can put you on a payment plan."
You can be sure that the seller of that contract did not educate the client in all the risks involved.
If the client was made aware of such risks and bought anyway, then pay up. No payment plans for you.
Greed has its price.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

RE Texas, it seems the hunt for the guilty parties has begin. That'll fix things :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

But, that is the nature of the supply/demand curve. If you had 1 kWh to sell in normal times, you'd only get your $0.13, but if it's the only kWh available, the market bids up the price. We saw that happen just a couple of weeks ago, when a bunch of "investors" dinked with the GameStop stock, and the shorters were forced to pay 100x the original stock price.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Turning off the water will blow the pipe. Running water is not so likely to freeze as still water. If you can leave the tap on without aggrevating the supply problem, like you have your own well, leave the tap a bit open.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Texas, it seems the hunt for the guilty parties has begin. That'll fix things)


I wouldn't hold my breath... that's Texas, you recall...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well to be fair, every Texican has the right to rip-off his fellow man for exorbitant prices when he gets the opportunity.
Most Texicans never get the opportunity, but they are willing to pay the price for that right, just in case.
In practice it is the average supporter of unbridled free enterprise who gets ripped-off.
The capitalists have done a great selling job on the huddled masses.
Is this the same mind set that leads to watching your inheritance disappear into grandma's medical expenses in her declining years instead of supporting a decent universal medicare plan?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Some have blamed the loss of the renewables as being a big part of the problem with the failures across the Texas grid, claiming that they accounted for 25% of the state's power production. However, that was very misleading. Granted, under ideal conditions, DURING THE SUMMER, the renewable sources in the state did often reach 25% (Texas in fact has got the most renewables) with most of that coming from wind. However, in the winter, this typically drops to around 10% at best, so even if they lost 100% of the renewables, that could not have caused the shortfall that occurred. And the irony is that once the ice started to fall off the wind turbine blades (they were only inoperable for about a day), due to the recent higher winds, the wind farms were the first to be 'fully' back online and actually are now producing MORE power then was typical during past Winter months. So in a way, they're actually helping to keep the grid powered-up while more traditional fossil- and nuclear-fueled facilities work to come back online.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote:

The current crisis in Texas should be viewed as an example of what could happen anywhere...

Yes, sadly the phenomena of talking heads and hot air worrying the masses continues to pop up everywhere. The bit that needs to be addressed is the amount of unethical "professionals" intentionally trying to incite panic and/or make political statements.

Quote:

What sort of water pipes will they normally use in Texas?

The same sort the rest of the country uses. My first giggle for this morning was a radio DJ speculating about how many sillcocks froze due to not being frost-free down south. Apparently he was unaware that most in the north aren't frost-free, decades old, and commonly viewed as better quality than the modern variety. My second giggle was hearing mention of a lack of snow plows in TX. During the 5 am broadcast, I was cruising 80 mph down the freeway in a FWD econobox through overnight snow deeper than what TX received without a plow in site for the entirety of 140 miles around our city.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I don't have a clue what you use normally in the USA.

It varies country by country round Europe.

And BTW I could see this happening in Europe as well. If a big freeze came down to Belgium. They are about as screwed as well with energy production. A big lump of it is by two dodgy Nukes and a large % of the rest is imported.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (John)

Granted, under ideal conditions, DURING THE SUMMER, the renewable sources in the state did often reach 25% (Texas in fact has got the most renewables) with most of that coming from wind. However, in the winter, this typically drops to around 10% at best,

I thought that was the point? Renewables are intermittent. Sometimes 25%+, sometimes 50%+, Sometimes far less. So the fossil fuel generators are having to ramp up and down a lot more, meaning the overall supply is far more volatile and liable to end up in a hole.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

SnTMan

How? Why? Not able? smile

It was my thought, didn't want say it though, didn't want to be rude winky smile
I would say that it is probably just a little bit better here.
I actually have four incoming valves at my summer house to use if needed.
I only have water during the summer so I have to turn on and off the water and empty and remove and attach my water meter every spring and autumn, so I guess I am not average in knowledge.

CWB1
The same sort the rest of the country uses.

And for us non Americans what does that mean?
Only plastic PE / PEM outside and copper or PE /PEM inside?

1503-44
Turning off the water will blow the pipe.

Hmm.. then it is a poor system winky smile


Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

even our outside taps, have an internal shut off... and the outside taps are opened to drain to prevent freezing the lines. Our external lines coming into the house have 6' of frost protection...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Tomfh)


I thought that was the point? Renewables are intermittent. Sometimes 25%+, sometimes 50%+, Sometimes far less.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that you can lie about it just to make it look like it's a biggest issue than it was. If this had happened in the Summer, then citing the 25% figure would have at least been accurate even though it would still have been disingenuous since if your system hadn't been designed to work without losing what everyone knows was "intermittent", that's a pretty big problem in itself and to pretend that it wasn't is just misleading the people who're suffering. After all, if there's going to be a demon in all of this, make sure it's the real demon, not the one that you want to think it is because it's the one you'd like it to be. But really, since this was a Winter event, and the historical renewable contribution was in the 10% range, then making the 25% claim was nothing more than trying to deflect the public outrage away from the real problems, and in the end, that's not going to help prevent this from happening again. And if it's true, that after 24 hours, the renewables were doing a better job of getting the grid powered-up again, that's a success story that should be acknowledged.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

RedSnake, combination of things: As I said, my service cutoff (at the meter) is very hard to turn. It is deep enough that, with an ordinary water key, the handles are about a foot (1/3m) or less off the dirt. I am literally kind of on my knees and elbows on the ground and can't really get any oomph on it. To top it all off, I guess I'm just not as studly as I used to be :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (This is the outside taps we use.)


The thing at the back is the cut-off?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I lived in Houston many decades ago. One fact I was told that downtown Houston was built on a bog or swamp. In fact that was how Texas was able to defeat Santa Ana and become independent of Mexico. Now the problem with building on swamping land is the the water table is very high. Every one of those sky scrapers in Houston have multiple pumps in their basement to keep the buildings from flooding. These pups run 24/7. Also installed are backup generators to keep those pumps running if the power fails. So the lights seen in the photograph might be powered by the standby generators.

Another reason for Texas resistance to federal regulation dates back to the early 70's. Federal regulations set the price of natural gas being sold interstate. It did not regulate intrastate prices. So the price Texans paid for natural gas was many times greater than that paid by residents in non-gas producing states. Ironically the federal government permitted import of LPG to the Northeast at a cost many times what even Texans were paying. Of course all of this left a bad taste in most Texans mouths.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Thanks... the washer goes back to the end...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

SnTMan
I asked my mechanic at work to make me one, I ordered it specially made smile
Just 3 pieces of square profile 2 welded to together the long one with the inner dimension as the bult on the service valve, and the short one on topp and then a size smaller square tube that is loos so i can change the leaver length smile
The length is as high as my elbows when standing straight, also tired on crawling on all four winky smile



Best regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Alistair_Heaton)

This is the outside taps we use.

That's exactly the same as what I use in South Carolina. They drain all the water outside the valve and the valve is on the inside of the wall. They're good as long as the inside of the house is a little above freezing.

If you read the historical novel Texas: A Novel by Michener, he references several blizzards that I think were every bit as bad as this one. They don't happen often but they do happen. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Alistair)

This is the outside taps we use.

I have the same thing .
For 5 or 6 years when we were carrying water to a few horses by hand every day it took about 2 to 4 liters of hot water to thaw them out every day.
We have moved and have a stock waterer with an underground feed and electric heat.
It has not frozen yet this winter.
Last winter with a burned out heater it was different.
hen I want water to fill the trailer tank to flood the skating rink, I use one of those freeze proof faucets.
I remove a ceiling tile in the rumpus room and direct a small fan on the inner part for a few hours or overnight to thaw it out when I need water outside.
The valve itself freezes so that the handle can not be turned to open the faucet.
That's a lot better than a standard faucet freezing behind the valve and bursting a pipe inside the house.

Running water to prevent freeze-up.
The action is two-fold.
The supply water is above freezing so the running water must be cooled and frozen as it transits the freeze area.
It often doesn't take much movement to keep the running water above the freezing point.
If the pipe does start to freeze, the ice tends to form on the inside surface of the pipe.
It gradually expands inward and reduces the usable inside diameter.
When the flow is finally choked off most of the ice expansion has already occurred and there is very little expansion to burst the pipe.
There are exceptions if the cooling zone is not uniform.
Anyone who has serviced a tubular ice making machine is familiar with this effect.
Ice is formed inside a tube as water flows down a very cold tube.
The tubes never break.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

waross
"I remove a ceiling tile in the rumpus room and direct a small fan on the inner part for a few hours or overnight to thaw it out when I need water outside."
Are you melting the snow of your ceiling with a fan, to get water ouside ?
I am not following you now...

Best regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (FacEngrPE)

This is a rare weather event, according to reports are the previous similar event was more than 30 years ago. It is not just some wind turbines off line, but a number of coal and natural gas plants tripped off line. These power plants that are not designed for freezing conditions, and when exposed to extended serious sub freezing conditions, become unpredictable.

The question that comes to my mind is: why do we design critical infrastructure for a once-in-a-millennium seismic event (for example), but not for a once-in 30-yr cold weather event? Failed infrastructure has the same consequences regardless of how it happens... Is there a gap in the building codes for freeze protection at critical infrastructure facilities?

I know we don't have all the facts yet in terms of root causes with what happened in Texas, but in general terms could building codes be in part to blame here?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The fun part of leaving the taps running is when drainpipe is running through an unheated or otherwise exceedingly cold cavity. When the drain freezes up the water keeps flowing and pretty soon you have the Ice Capades!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

My rear outside tap was leaking last winter...just a bit... and I had a column of ice about 1' through and 1-1/2' high and the tap was completely encased in ice.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (John)

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that you can lie about it just to make it look like it's a biggest issue than it was

A much bigger lie is renewables make electricity cheaper and more reliable, which is what the lie you speak of is attempting to counter.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Tomfh - the reason that Texas has so much wind power is because it is far cheaper to install and run than a new power plant powered by coal or gas or nuke. Plain and simple - that's how it is.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

And since ERCOT was established to procure and distribute power at the lowest possible cost per kilowatt hour, you darned well know that if the people installing the wind turbines and solar arrays could NOT demonstrate that they were indeed able to deliver said power at or below the current market rate in the state of Texas, that ERCOT would NOT have allowed them to connect to their grid.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

For what it's worth, this was the national power outage map for this past Tuesday, February 16th:

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

And for the current outage map for Texas, go to:

https://poweroutage.us/area/state/texas

Here's what the Texas map looks like RIGHT NOW:

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

And here is the national map showing if a state has an outage and what the maximum extent of that outage:

https://poweroutage.us/

Selecting a state will bring up a map of the state showing the status for each county in the state:

Here's the current national map:

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (IR)

Tomfh - the reason that Texas has so much wind power is because it is far cheaper to install and run than a new power plant powered by coal or gas or nuke. Plain and simple - that's how it is

Yes, it’s cheap electricity. Same as solar. When the wind is blowing and the sun is shining that is.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

And that's all ERCOT cared about, the cost per kilowatt hour, at the moment it's being added to the grid. Based on a pure market-driven, buy and sell model, if renewables really were the cheapest power generated, even if it was only during daylight hours and when the wind was blowing, ERCOT would still prefer it over conventional suppliers, because that would give them the cheapest power cost possible. So if the 25% that renewables were adding to the grid was being done without any consideration given for how that contribution would be replaced when renewables were not able to produce, that's the fault of ERCOT and no one else.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Hi Anna;
My rumpus room (or family room, or game room, or party room, it depends) is in the basement.
The freeze resistant tap projects into the false ceiling above the rumpus room.
There is no natural air circulation and convection is no enough to keep the valve seat above freezing.
The ambient temperature in the rumpus room is about 70F/21C
With a false ceiling tile removed and a small fan circulating warm air past the valve it soon thaws.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I read it said somewhere that wind power is "worthless when the wind blows and priceless when it doesn't".

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (I read it said somewhere that wind power is "worthless when the wind blows and priceless when it doesn't".)


Like it or not, wind and solar power are definitely in your future...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

It seems the storage issue is on the table in ercot. Time will tell if this approach will get the amount of storage needed into their grid. http://www.ercot.com/mktrules/keypriorities/bes It is also not clear if this sort of cold weather event could possibly be mitigated in any measure by short term storage.

Fred

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Yes and now when we are starting to build wind mills in tree instead of steel, they will be even cheaper. smile

Biggest problem, everybody thinks wind power is good, but nobody wants them in there backyard.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

As it seems to be some speculating due to lack of information.
I thought I would make some assumptions myself.
Balancing a power grid requires a lot of foresight, operational analysis and experience and also a robust and reliable transmission network.
If, say, 10% of the power production disappears at the same time as the consumption increases, there must also be a power reserve, but it will not work if the grid is not robust enough to deliver the power to where it need to be.
If you can not maintain the balance in / out lets say you get caught by surprise your only option is to disconnect consumers from the network to avoid a total collapse.
In addition to the fact that the wind turbines were icy, one can also suspect that the same thing happened with the air power lines, which may have led to more interruptions.
Fixing bad air power lines in a snowstorm is not something you normally do from an occupational safety perspective. The work usually does not start until snow and windstorms are over and it can take several days to get it in order.
Then we have what is called water trees in power cables, due too ground plastic insulated cables in an environment with significant water supply.
Moisture penetrates in the insulation on the cables and reduces the insulation capacity.
The consequence is a higher error rate, the cable can work under a long periods, but in the event of an overvoltage due to transients when trying to reset the power grid, there can be a short circuit.

If anyone thinks that this is going to be a 30 year recycling event, i am quit shore it will not.. it will happen more often and att longer periods.

Best regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (RedSnake)

Biggest problem, everybody thinks wind power is good, but nobody wants them in there backyard.

In the US, nobody wants anything in their backyard. I have a saying, Everybody wants the gasoline, nobody wants the refinery :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

As this event starts to wind down (hopefully) some more reasons analysts is appearing. This author is starting to consider some reasonable questions https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/what-went-wrong-....

News Release February 19, 2021 ERCOT will end emergency conditions today http://www.ercot.com/news/releases/show/225962.


Redsnake
ERCOT has a market philosophy that emphasizes real time cost, but does not compensate a power plant for just existing.
PJM has a market philosophy that considers availability, so market compensation was designed for that.
Millage of different approaches will vary.
I think PJM would also be shedding load if we lost 40% of spinning and on line generation. The planning https://www.pjm.com/planning is supposed to make sure that does not happen. The processes that ERCOT's posts are sufficiently different that the only conclusion that can be made is that the markets are very different.

Will we have more of these events? We can be sure history will repeat itself. It is up to us to decide how we remember our history. Here is some weather history 1900 to 2000 for Texas from NOAA http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/ewx/wxevent/100.pdf.






RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I don't know who this guy is, but it seems to me a reasonable take on events.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (RedSnake)


Yes and now when we are starting to build wind mills in tree instead of steel, they will be even cheaper.

The problem is that in Texas there are very few trees, and certainly none where the wind tends to blow the most consistently.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (JohnRBaker)

The problem is that in Texas there are very few trees, and certainly none where the wind tends to blow the most consistently.
Well that is not a problem we are good at export in Sweden so you can buy them from us winky smile
I do not think there is any anywhere els.



Best Regards Anna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Redsnake... is that a windmill shaft in wood?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

You can't use a wood tower with the really large windmills.

Planned construction to replace retired coal generation, 27 miles off the Virginia coast. 2 ea 6MW units on line now. The remaining construction is planned to be 180 units at 14MW ~ 2,640 MW. https://coastalvawind.com/. I guess we will see how well this works out eventually.

Fred

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Maybe all expenses and aid should be reclaimed back off ercot.

Then there is a financial number to play with.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Figured that... but I was wondering what the ladder was doing on the roof of the tunnel. bigsmile

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Maybe all expenses and aid should be reclaimed back off ercot.)


The article in the Intercept is quite informative...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well the next one they are testing is 500 feet, it is actually easier to build high with tree, then with steel.
But it is very different technically. smile

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

from the Daily Mail...

"Texans have seen electric bills surge as high as $17,000 after two powerful storms knocked out power and caused a 300-fold surge in demand - as 14million people struggle to get clean water in a 'health catastrophe'.

While most Texans are on a fixed rate plan on which they pay the same monthly amount throughout the duration of their contract, some are on a variable or indexed plan which sees rates vary based on the market."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Well the next one they are testing is 500 feet)


composite plywood with wood stiffeners? Any articles on the design of this type of structure?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I will keep my eye out in ikea for one of those wooden windfarm units.



RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote:

CWB1
The same sort the rest of the country uses.
And for us non Americans what does that mean?
Only plastic PE / PEM outside and copper or PE /PEM inside?

Depends if youre talking hi side (feed) or lo side (drain) and indoor vs outdoor. Hi side interior stateside is generally copper or PEX, but CPVC is used to a lesser extent. Hi side outdoor is usually black steel. Lo lines are usually cast, black steel, or heavy PVC regardless of location being underground. Gas is copper or steel.

The sillcock (spigot, tap, bibb, etc) images you and Alistair posted above are called "frost-free" stateside. They have become a code requirement for new homes in some areas fairly recently but are far less common than a standard external sillcock. Personal preference varies with proponents of each. The frost free variety tend to be rather cheaply made and regularly break from a combination of mineral buildup, cheap materials, and sensitivity to torque. Breaking an external sillcock is nearly impossible by comparison bc theyre heavier brass and less susceptible to mineral buildup, they leak but are easily rebuilt. I upgrade to frost-free when selling to give the appearance of shiny/new but am in no rush otherwise if the sillcock isnt leaking. The current home has three 70+ year old external sillcocks running the sprinklers, one was upgraded bc it leaks and we plan to sell in a few years. The rentals are all decades-old external bc theyre bulletproof. A few decades ago it was a fad stateside among new homeowners to add a shutoff valve and drain external sillcocks but nobody that I know bothers anymore bc there's little risk of freezing/bursting. The northern 1% of the continental 48 might get down ~-15F/-25C for a few days in a cold winter, so there's nothing to worry about unless you're a serious worrier.

An interesting irony and dirty unmentionable of renewable discussion stateside is that the political half constantly demonizing reliable/cheap fossil fuels as evil vs unreliable/costly solar & wind renewables have spent ~70 years pushing for the end of reliable/cheap hydroelectric, and in many areas have succeeded. The rural electric co-op that powers my folks' is up against them now. A local paper mill provided cheap power to the town from ~3 MW of hydro-generators from the 1930s until ~Y2k when it was forced to close and the town bought the site. Now the same outsiders who cost the townspeople half their jobs are demanding the town remove the hydros and buy off the larger grid which would increase prices from $0.025/kWh to $0.12/kWh, and require folks to convert homes from the common electric to fossil fuel heating. Apparently in an area legendary for sportfishing, nature, and green living, the fish are suffering a terrible tragedy that modern dam regulation cannot prevent.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

dik I'll see what I can find it is Chalmers who is researching it together with some wood company, but most of the artikels are in Swedish.
The first test tower is only 30 m (100 feet), it is on Björkö in Gothenburg.

And Alistair you are right, you will probably be able to buy one at IKEA winky smile it is modular, maybe not flatpack but as close as possible smile

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Thanks for that answer.

The one I posted isn't cheap and it's solid brass and copper. I have two of them. The Finnish know what they are doing but you pay for it. The normal DIY shop ones are about 50$ but max 300mm long. I needed 500mm.

After years getting shouted at going to collect buckets of hot water inside I thought sod it... And put hot and cold taps in the yard.

I really don't regret it. In fact we use the hot more than the cold.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Here is some articles but I do think they all build on the same Swedish one..
The first have some more pictures.

https://materialdistrict.com/article/wind-turbines...
https://www.energylivenews.com/2020/05/01/sweden-l...
https://electrek.co/2020/05/07/sweden-erects-first...

And here is some friendly advice from Skellefteå, Sweden to Texas.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-92...

Best Regards A

PS. In Skellefteå they are building the larges batteri factory in the Europe..

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Why are people in this thread using the word "wind mill". We are engineers not children. Come on. Furthermore wind power was not the cause of Texas's energy shortage, the online wind power has been higher than forecast.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Whos-To...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (human909)

Why are people in this thread using the word "wind mill"
.
Well I apologies for my childishness, and will better myself in my shortcomings in the English language.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

human909... the Intercept link I posted earlier is a bit of an eye opener... repeated...

https://theintercept.com/2021/02/19/deconstructed-...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Thanks Anna...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (RedSnake)

Well I apologies for my childishness, and will better myself in my shortcomings in the English language.

Best Regards A

Sorry for my comment. The apology should be coming from me. From context I should have realised the language barrier. I can only speak/write in one language, that shame is mine.

I reacted that way because my reading of the term in multiple other reporting recently. The use of the term "wind mill" is generally associated with people who have a strong political bias against the use of wind turbines as a power source. It has derogatory connotations.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (human909)

Sorry for my comment. The apology should be coming from me
No problem smile
Sometimes when I'm in a hurry I can not bear to proofread everything three times.
It's a little difficult to keep up sometimes.
It takes a little longer for me to check out and understand all the special expressions as well.
But it seems that you English speakers have a little trouble understanding each other sometimes as well.
I am aware of my shortcomings, even if they are few. winky smile
So no hard feelings.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

My opinion - Windmill is really not a completely out of place term for a wind turbine even if it offends some of us engineers.
These may be old school, but you still see them all over remote parts of the Midwest, where the cost to run power to a field is $4.50 or $24000 per mile.
Historical windmills here look like the restored Robertson's Windmill in Williamsburg Va

Redsnake your English is much better than my non existent Swedish or my minimal, but useful German.

Fred

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (I can not bear to proofread everything)


You proofread?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Did I do it again ? lol
In that case I can blame google translate !!
Yes first writing it, then reading it, then correct what I can find that dose not seem right.
Then reading it again etc..
Proofreading ponder or ??

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well you would be laughing your heads of if I didn't. winky smile

There is a rhyme in Swedish that goes like this.
Sheep do not get sheep, sheep get lambs.
If I put it in google translate.
It looks like this.
Sheep sheep not sheep, sheep sheep lambs.
rofl

Sometimes I writes directly in English and sometimes I translate or both depends.

FacEngrPE I was actually starting to wonder where I got the windmill from, if it was something I invented myself.

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

not to worry... your English is better than my Swedish... reminds me of the muppet Swedish chef... who does't speak Swedish, but 'mock Swedish'... when asked what he really spoke, he answered 'mock Japanese'... and then went of on a Japanese tantrum...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well here is a conspiracy theory it can be a real Swedish chief who is the inspiration his name is Lars Åke "Kuprik" Bäckman. smile
https://vimeo.com/253222754

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Thanks for the background...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Picture 1 there. Isn't it really a wind pump, or an aerogenerator?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aerogen...

In any case, using windmills to mill grain phased out quite awhile ago.
Then there's this. https://aermotorwindmill.com

You'd think they'd have worked out a standard name for them by now.

I've no idea what picture 2 is. A fancy weather vane?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
What's the technical issues with unfreezing a gas pipeline and a gas well.

Is it just get them warm and it starts flowing again or do knock on issues rear their head?



RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

One possible issue; Remote gas wells may not have electricity available for easy freeze protection heaters.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Wish some field worker would video a frozen well head and what it takes to get it back into service. I think that would be fascinating.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

It depends whether it has literally frozen with water, either freezing instruments or water drains or whether it has developed gas hydrates.

Hydrates you "melt" by either reducing pressure, raising temperature or injecting "anti freeze".

But then you need to do something to stop it happening again and if it's a hydrate issue that means continuous injection of MEG or methanol (horrible stuff) or somehow adding enough heat until you can remove the water.

Lots of places for the system to freeze until you get into the main transmission pipeline if you haven't allowed for it. Fix one problem and it will freeze somewhere else or your control system packs up or you haven't got electricity yourself.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

You need to be really careful melting a hydrate plug as you need to avoid the plug freeing itself and then shooting down the flowline like an artillery shell.....



Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

According to the article in oilprice.com, the projected consumption was 67,000 megawatts. But the shadow estimates published by ERCOT suggested about 72,000. And that they could only cobble together about 40,000.

If they had used some type of manual (MCD) or automatic consumption disconnection (ACD) that we have here.
This would not have caused the entire electricity grid to collapse.
ACD would have disconnected all boilers and heat pumps and other large consumers not deemed necessary for short periods if the mains frequency dropped below 48.8 - 49.4 Hz.
And if this did not help to restore frequency to above 50 Hz, after 15 minutes MCD would taken place by disconnecting consumers with rotation at regional level.
You disconnect consumers for a period and then you disconnect another area and turn on the previous until electricity production is restored.
Regardless of what triggered the energy shortage, it should not have failed the entire electricity grid, if they had disconnected consumers in time.
So either they did not have a good enough crisis plan for this or something else must have had an effect as well.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

As you point out one of the missing factors is the lack of ability to control demand. Most of the commentary has been about the failing supply (due to the cold) and the increase demand (due to the cold). But there doesn't seem to be any ability to actively manage demand. Empty office buildings lit up and presumable heated too isn't a good look!


Demand management isn't easy but as you point out various countries have implemented their own approaches of ACD. Here in Australia our peak power is summer. When the grid is stress the main power management is requests by government to minimise air conditioning as well as various industry such as aluminium smelters that can at least briefly turn off their usage.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

1503-44 Pivture 2 is from Williamsburg Virginia, has an area that was restored to the general appearance it had in the late 1600's when it was the capital of Virginia. Robertson's Windmill was once a small commercial flour mill.
https://podcast.history.org/2010/08/30/moving-robe...
I guess total power on a windy day would be less than 5 HP.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
In some countries in Europe most of industry and large commercial properties have what's call ripple receivers on the main supply and certain sub systems.

It means the grid can shut them off from the central control room. There is protections and a levels of cut off for critical systems so the whole building doesn't go black.

They can also control all the solar grid tied inverters power factor and also there output level. And this goes down to small producer level.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

In the article it was mentioned that In extreme situations, residential heating gets precedence over power generation which sounds nice.
As a power provider you must have if not automatik control over your transformation station at least manual, It is a must to have a power control room to managed the grid power and if you do not have the possibility to regulate and control the equipment from it, it would be quite useless.
I think they didn't have a proper crisis plan and experience to handel the situation.

Here in Sweden "Svenska Kraftnät" and and I would guess in all of Scandinavia and the Baltics as we are in the same power market "Nord Pool" they praxis different scenarios every autumn, in how to handle the variations and faults that can arise during the winter which is our high peak season.
We have never needed to use MCD, we can always buy from the outside if needed.
So if it would happen I am not shore how well it would work in practice.

I think some one sade that some large buildings hade there own power backup so it might why some houses are lite in the picture.

Here is how it looks for Scandinavia and the Baltics right now.



Best regards Anna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Lithuania is having that fight with Belarus over that new reactor so that's doing funny things.

Plus all three Baltic states are still synced to Russia

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Following the Northeast blackout of 1965, some system level automatic load reduction was installed in the eastern grid. (IEEE Paywall, unfortunately I was not able to find a accessible copy of this. It is probably the article I saw in the my fathers copy of the IEEE Spectrum at the time https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/88621) A reasonably good summary of the events described in the report. https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/howiblak.htm

This is one of several events that eventually lead to the creation of NERC https://www.nerc.com/news/Documents/HistoryofNERC0...

https://www.govtech.com/em/disaster/AP-WAS-THERE-5...

https://www.npcc.org/content/docs/public/library/m...

I have attached some PJM operator training material
https://www.pjm.com/-/media/training/nerc-certific...
https://www.pjm.com/-/media/training/nerc-certific... here
I attached the second document, which has some rather extensive background on a number of blackouts.
A slide share presentation with more history https://www.slideshare.net/chandan8240000/major-bl...
A research paper with more power system detail on historical blackouts http://www.columbia.edu/itc/sociology/watts/w3233/...

It is interesting to note that in at least some of these events knock on items extended the outage. In 1965 some substations could not be restarted due power to run the station air compressors so the breakers needed to restore station power could not be operated. Similar in impact to frozen in gas wells.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
if your interested this is what I was on about.

https://www.smart-energy.com/regional-news/europe-...

And in Germany at least all solar installations have to have one of these fitted so they can drop the grid injection from inverters. I think there is 0% 30%,50%,70% and 100%. They can also move the Power factor between 0.8 either way.

There is a link into KNX to deal with subsystem level isolation and to keep critical systems live. I believe also they can trigger backup generators in hospitals etc to start up and take over before the grid actually drops.

They don't have it where I am but my inverter is already setup for dynamic reactive and power level control.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

My electric utility has installed so-called smart meters for residential customers, perhaps for commercial ones as well. The utility has a program that residential customers can opt into that allows demand management. It is usually explained in terms of setting back thermostats during the summer, typically peak usage due to AC, but I suppose it can be done any time. I think the customer gets a slightly reduce rate in return. So demand management by the utilities can be and is being done.

EDIT: Forgot to add, the customer who opts in is supplied by the utility with a thermostat that enables the demand management.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
My heat pump also has an input for a ripple receiver as well. Which would allow the grid to change its mode. There is an emergency mode which can be triggered which sets the place to 10 degs C heating and kills active cooling.

In fact most most smart heating systems in Europe now come with it. But its only really the central European country's that have the control and transmitters up.

The commercial shut downs the customer actually get quiet a bit of compensation when it happens I believe. As do the standby generators that are triggered.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Yes, we have a co-called 'smart meter' and we're on a plan which has different rates during the course of the day. There are Winter and Summer rates.

Here is the current rate schedule that we're on:



And here is the rate schedule that we'll have when Summer arrives:



We've also signed-up for the Summer A/C cycling program where they've attached a control device (connected to the cellular network) which allows the power company to turn-off our A/C unit when demand is high. Generally, these interruptions last for three to four hours, usually not more than once or twice a week, however, this past Summer, there were a couple of periods where they cycled our A/C several days in a row. Note that the 'incentive' for signing-up for this program is a discount of about $30/month (during the Summer), whether they need to interrupt our A/C or not.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Winterizing gas gathering pipelines involves installing inline heat exchangers. They are gas fired, as you have the fuel right at your fingertips. The heaters should be lit in advance of hydrate formation, as hydrates do not necessarily form where heat needed to melt the plugs can be conveniently applied. It is far easier to prevent hydrates than to clear them once formed. In fact you may not even be able to locate exactly where the freeze took place. Injecting a de-icer and getting it to reach a plugged point may not be possible, as flow as stopped. Pressure reduction to vaporize the hydrates behind a plug may be difficult too, since no flow tends to increase well head pressures. And as LittleInch mentioned, freed plugs can go down the pipe like a cannon shot. I once worked for the largest gas producer in Tx, an "independent producer", not associated with any major oil/gas company in the late 80's. We sold gas to all and anybody and we could field 1 BCFD all by ourselves from 850 gas wells through 600 miles of our gathering system and 300 miles of transmission lines. I had 5 guys to operate the pipelines, well connections and light the heaters. I dont think we ever got all the heaters lit and many wells did not have them at all. Well production rates varied from a few thousand cfd to 50 million CFD. Heaters were only installed on the high productivity wells.



RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I tried timed rates once. The plan turned out to be day, or night rates, 12pm-12am day, 12am-12pm, night. The day rate turned out to be so high, in relation to night rate that it made it quite painful to consider running the clothes dryer, or turning on the oven, or electric water heater and HVAC, except after mmidnight.Day rate was much higher than slightly higher than the average I expected. Some TX customers now are getting bills for up to $16,000, having somehow been allowed to get involved with "speculative" power contracts that should even worry a large power company lawyer. Crazy.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I use a/c very sparingly myself so I did not opt in to give control to the utility.
Perhaps when my wife moves in next year, I will change my mind, since she requires the indoor temp to be 72 degrees year around.love

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

...and more.

"The largest U.S. oil refiners released tons of air pollutants into the skies over Texas this past week, according to figures provided to the state, as refineries and petrochemical plants in the region scrambled to shut production during frigid weather."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I recall "hearing" about being able to buy your electricity from various companies so I googles Indexed electric billing and was shocked at all the "companies that now can.

(I delayed getting cell phone because of the "weird" way the various to get service)

So far my state allows the generating utility distribute and bill. A regulated monopoly works for me!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (dik)

"The largest U.S. oil refiners released tons of air pollutants into the skies over Texas this past week, according to figures provided to the state, as refineries and petrochemical plants in the region scrambled to shut production during frigid weather."
And what of the environmental impact... is it serious? significant? measurable? quantifiable? Inquiring minds want to know.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
byrdj I too have a an option to buy form the BAltic spot rate and it was a huge family discussion because as soon as I read it I got a gut feel that it was a bad idea. It took me a day or two to finalise the argument not to for the other family members why it was a stupid idea. But the marketing was good. Lots of big font numbers and impressive graphs. But the bottom line to them was why are you paying @2 cents more for a kWh average. And just couldn't understand that the price they were seeing isn't a constant but a marketing average.

Basically in Jan the spot average is around 8 cents per kWh and during the summer its 4.5 cents. I pay 5.8 cents all year round but only pull less than 50 kWh from the grid in the summer months, winter it can be 1000 kWh a month.

And it took a bit of searching to show that the period between Dec and March which is the only time I pull significant amounts of power from the grid the rate we pay is actually under the spot price pretty much all the time never mind a crisis event. I also got the hard sell over the phone to try and get me to change 3 times with an ever increasing level of bullshite being spouted. The eventual argument was "your the only one in the area that hasn't seen the benefits of joining this amazing deal...." reply "I am the only one in the area that has a Engineering degree so that's hardly surprising".

In fact I suspect we are due the yearly phone calls again to try and get us to convert. I always go in and renew the contract on the 4th of Jan because then they release the new price for the year. If you leave it until end of Feb after which they start sending emails the spot price in Jan has usually dragged the price up. Sometimes its a bonus being a native English speaker and not speaking the local lingo or Russian. All the extended family groups have gone back to the old deal now that i have a couple of years bills to show them the stupidity of it all to compare against theirs.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well I have a very low energi consumption to begin with only having a apartment (2800 kW a year) and a summerhouse (1800 kW a year) where we only use power in the summer.
So the power grid cost that you can't change, is higher then the actual electricity cost right now.
Summerhouse (16 A, 380 V, 175 EUR, 205 USD a year)
Apartment(16 I A, 380 V, 70 EUR, 85 USD a year)
For the electric power I choose a company whit low fixed cost (administration, etc.) but with spot price, the risk isn't so high for me, I managed to lower the electricity cost to with 2/3 smile
I pay between (1 to 3,5 Cent EUR) (1,2 to 4,2 Cent US) per kW
(Edit) Forgot the tax.
I pay between (5,1 to 7,6 Cent EUR) (6,1 to 9,1 Cent US) per kW

We can choose between very many different power companies.
I didn't choose the cheapest but one with low fixed cost and a company that does not sell out your, personal data to other companies and call you to try to get you to change your deal every month, which makes me crazy.

I changed my mother to this company also because the one she hade had managed to trick here into long deals with a lot of stuff she didn't need and when she hade a 2 year contract they managed to renew it after one, so it was almost impossible to get out of it.
The one we have now it is one month notice period.

Alister since Baltics are in the Nord Pool as well can you choose to buy from Swedish companies ?

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

SO......
Most public would rather go with the CHEAPEST offer (as advertised showing minmun spot in time) and not paying anything for insurance (ie releability)

sounds like what screwed TX

two decades past ( my last days visiting generation plants) The massive units I had commisioned decades prior to that, that were designed to be extremely reliable BUT also to be maintained in operation for years without shutting down were in a deregulated market where they were daily cycled. that is removed from service and allowed to go cold overnight and the next morning not knowing if or when they would be asked to expend a large part of their cyclic life providing for a demand not being met by the small independant generations (getting goverment subsideses) selling thier power cheaper.

NOW, if the fossil plant is not being used continous, there was no MONEY to pay for the massive increase in maintenance (due to cycling) so definately nothing to spend to make it weather proof for rare events

BUT the public got their CHEAP rates whule the "sun was shinning" (pharse use figuratively and in noway a pun to green generation) and should not be surprised by loss of service or the outragous rates charge as result

You should not call them Power Companies as they are merely power brokers, sort of like hedge funds....their managers will always get their cut no matter if public wins or LOSSES

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
A am a bit limited because of selling back to the grid with the solar.

I can use a Swedish company's to buy off. But then it becomes problematic to sell and if I do I get charged injection rates and loose the green grid money which is in the region of 6 cents per kWh . Plus the 0.5 cent green bonus over the top of the Nordic pool price.

I am with Electrum who haven't pissed me off yet. The other huge advantage with them is they run a single bill system. The others you end up with 4 bills a month from various places. With them it keeps a rolling credit of power injection and uses it to pay off the other charges. Having to go in and pay 3 bills per month and then claim back money off the 4th one would piss me off. The way I have it for 10-11 months of the year I don't have to do anything and it all sorts itself out so I don't pay anything. Cash turns up in the bank for the grid green money and the rest of the charges are covered by solar production. And only when the credit from that runs out I have to pay them something. During the summer between 65 and 90 euro appears in the wifes bank account from this setup. That money is guaranteed for the next 15 years. They shut that scheme down though on the 31st of Dec 2020 due to the new government having connections to the main large power producers who want peopel to use there power and certainly don't want any green money going into anyone but their own pockets.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
byrdj basically yes to everything you have said.

The locals here older than 35 are still coming to terms with leaving the Soviet union.

They will go for the cheapest price point every single time. So much so that you just can't get quality products.

My heating system for example is a very nice German made heatpump with all the fancy stuff already built in. It can speak to solar inverters etc etc.

My solar inverter again German and can do all sorts of fancy stuff.

The suppliers/installers do there up most to stop you using any of these features or future proofing your system by upgrading the crap they want to put in. I refused the mild steel paper thin C rated insulated hot water tank which they wanted to put in price 700 euro expected life span 5 years. I went for a 1800 euro imported from the UK stainless tank with A++ insulation and copper heat exchanger which my son will need to start thinking about replacing in 25 years time. But the amount of arguments I had over it. They could not see that 700 x 5 was double the price of 1800 x 1. Never mind the energy savings and having the effort of changing the tank every 5 years.

I used copper pipes for all my piping which should be good for 15 years at least... No leaks in 3 years. The locals wanted to put in PEX and snapfit connections. Gave me a load of nonsense about copper pipes. The relatives places have the local stuff and they have 2-3 leaks a year that need fixing and a major about every 2-3 years requiring redecoration afterwards and it seems to be a rolling process to replace the pipes. So what my copper cost twice as much and took me 4 days to put in instead of the 2 days they said they could do it with PEX. My parents house in Scotland me an my dad put copper pipe heating system in 40 years ago now and its only had one leak since and that was due to some young idiot plumber putting a section of flexible in because he couldn't be bothered bending a bit of copper pipe. I replaced it with a bit of bent copper pipe after the leak which took me 4 hours.

Solar inverter they refused point blankly to connect in an energy meter onto it which you need to put a battery onto it. All sort of nonsense about economics of it etc etc. So i bought one myself and set it up. Its already paid for itself being able to see what I am using and production and turning things on and off to self consume. And the battery is giving me 400 euro a year worth of power so giving a pay back time of 10 years not the 30 years they were saying.

It does my head in... They will use 20 euros worth of Fuel to drive to get a 10 euro discount. Never mind its a day doing it that you will never get back.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well I can choose if I want the bill ones a month, every three month, every half year or ones a year.
The net provider bill comes every three month has always done.
So I have them all on three month, but I am thinking about changing on the summerhouse to half a year.
They sent me a bill last year saying that they were not going to charge me that month because the bill was so low they where going to put it on the next one lol it was for 3,5 EUR.

Bill paying is all done by autogiro the bills goes to the bank and they pay them from chosen account.
Haven't had any wrong bills as I know of yet.
The only bill I approves manually is the credit card bill, there is bigger risks with that one.

My mother doe she had also this bad phone company the same strategy as the power company.
They sent incorrect bills for over half a year she hade two phones one with low fixed cost and high calling cost and the other was the opposite, but they threw them around so on the phone she used most often so she got both high fixed cost and high calling cost, took me a month or more to make them pay it back.

I am getting ride of both my mothers power company and the phone company in a couple of month when the contract ends.
And I have told them in no uncertain terms that they should stop calling here and try to get here to sign a new one, and even blocked all phone calls from sales persons on her phones.
Both companies hade the highest amount of complaints with the consumer board, mostly for targeting old people, over the phone, making them take bad deals with long contracts.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Alistair)

"I am the only one in the area that has a Engineering degree so that's hardly surprising"
smile thumbsup2

The Swedish electricity network companies were quite tightly regulated in terms of cost, since from the beginning it was the state that owned everything and still owns a large part.
But they managed to open up for higher fees to be able to maintain and replace the network.
Which actually was bull shit as they made money for decades without doing preventative maintenance stuff.

So I received a letter that the electricity air lines in the summer housearea would be taken down and new ones would be put down in the earth.
And those who would be affected would be contacted.
One day when I come out to the cottage, they have dug and torn up trees on my property and it looked like hell.
No one had contacted me, so it was a one and a half year dispute over compensation and more.
The project manager was quite young and it was his first project management job.
He was polite and nice no problem in the way, but he could of course not make any decisions of his own.
My strategy was to take care of everything via email.
That way I would have everything documented and have time to check things out myself.

In the end, I agreed to meet him outside the cottage.
When I get there, he has another man with him, he was the project manager for the internet network, which they would put in at the same time.
He threatened me with digging up the cable and disconnect me from the network.
And I said
-You are welcome to do that, and then you can ask my neighbor who has a year-round house on the same cable what he thinks about that?
-I can fix my own energy supply if necessary.
I had never mentioned what I was really working with I did not think it would matter.
But when this annoying guy says for the third time.
- Do you know what? I am a educated electrical engineer so I know what I am talking about!
Then I said
- Do you know what? I am also a educated electrical engineer so I do too!
He got a bit more reasonable after that. winky smile

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Ha, I've only just noticed Alastairs dyslexia - "Taxas power issues" A previously unheard of state... lol

The texas price situation is an ultimate expression of free market economy, although even then there is a regulated limit ($9/kwH!), it's just that limit is a hundred times more than the "normal" rate. It will be interesting to see if they reduce that limit in the future. I bet they thought it would never get anywhere near that and just set some arbitrary number so high it wouldn't be seen as a cap. Anyone got a history of Texas spot prices over the last 5-10 years?

I've never seen a wholesale price offer to domestic customers in the UK and I think after this experience it probably wouldn't be allowed for the same reasons - i.e. most people would just get seduced by the "low" average price and ignore the potential risks.

The limit here in the UK is that the standard tariff offered if you don't switch suppliers or choose a fixed price deal - The Standard Variable Rate as it's called - is now limited to a set number so that those not inclined or incapable of switching suppliers don't end up paying too high a price for their inertia compared to those of us who do ( it's about + 30-40%).

In the early days when the energy market went from a single monopoly government entity to multiple suppliers, there were a lot of dodgy door to door salesmen and women getting older people to switch suppliers without them even really knowing or understanding it. I always liked the "everyone else on your street has switched so why not you?" approach. My answer wasn't printable, but I normally just requested details of their rates and standing charges and said I would get back to them. I never ever showed them any bills as they had a habit of taking the required details, then forging signatures and just switching you.

At least everything going on line and COVID has stopped all that nonsense.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Mate I am on a local keyboard because my son broke my UK layout and I have to wait for amazon to send one through from Germany. And my reading glasses have gone walk about..

Now do I change the layout to the one it actually is and my fingers have no clue where half the keys are or force the computer use UK layout and fly it blind?

They are at the same stage here with the swap over as you describe of the early days in the UK... Its just the locals aren't as savy to all the ploys like we are. Or the techniques for getting rid of them.

I even had one of them nearly in tears saying "but I have been told I have to get you to do this".

"Well that's really your problem not mine"

"But they are going to take my wages and fire me if I don't"

"I wish you every success in your next career have a nice day" and shut the door..

They stood outside for over 10 mins not knowing what to do.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Lost your senile strings again winky smile

/A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

"I wish you every success in your next career - have a nice day" Classic - I'll have to try and remember that one the next time I get something similar.

The pressure put on sales personnel to make sales is truly awful sometimes and it can take a hard heart sometimes, but needs to be done.

I can foresee a string of law suits in Texas that the people concerned didn't know what they were signing up to.

Like every other financial type scandal / mis selling the world over.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

What is bizarre is the pricing system encourages gaming of the system, rewarding bad actors and punishing consumers. The same peculiar unregulated pricing scheme led to the 2001 california power crisis, where the unregulated IPP plants would scheme to schedule outages ( planned and announced and also unplanned an unannounced) to cause the supply to become well short of the demand, causing the bid price to skyrocket, and leading to enourmous profits for those IPP plants remaining in service for that day. The next day , a different IPP would scratch the back of the other IPP plants , forgo profits for one day while ensuring enourmous profits for others . The end result was an exquisite milking of the consumers.In the end, the federal govt enacted federal regulations prohibiting such schemes, but ERCOT may be immune from federal regulations.

There are reports now that some consumers that normally had a monthly bill of $347 USD recieved notice that the new bill for the 4 days is over $17,000 USD. This caused a lot of folks to change their underwear that day.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Nord pool (Scandinavia/Baltics) have a max price 3,0 EUR/kWh (when the power reserve is used).

The so-called power reserve is created by entering into agreements with players in the electricity market.

1. They enter into agreements with electricity producers who have reserve power plants.
Then the agreement is about the electricity producer to contribute with additional electricity production.

2. They enter into agreements with large electricity users and electricity trading companies, but then it is instead a matter of them reducing their electricity consumption.

New EU regulation requires.

In order to procure so-called strategic reserves as the power reserve, the EU regulation requires that a new method to calculate the risk of power shortages.

This also presupposes that there are targets for delivery security, a so-called reliability standard, against which the risk can then be assessed.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Something from above is about water pipe heave, which is a real thing, and if their water system is anything like ours, some of the pipe can be plastic that is a few years old, to cast iron that maybe up to 100 years old.
And because the water table is so high in Texas, the pipes are likely very shallow.

In 2011 the wind farms did freeze with ice on the blades, but maybe this time was different. Any other talk of them being unavailable is just banter, as with no wind they could produce zero.

The coal, gas should have been available, if they had fuel, and had been winterized.

The gas freeze up could have been reduced, and that is all that I should say.

Price contracts with no caps for consumers, is well, the fault of the uneducated consumers.

All of this just goes to show is that with going with green energy, the amount of reserves needs to be reevaluated, and likely should be included in the cost of that energy.
The reliance of making money on tax credits for green energy, and not looking at reserves does come at a cost. Not to say that was the major cause in Texas, but it likely had a contribution.

Maybe if so many of the electric plants had been winterized, and had fuel stored on site (which most coal plants did), this would have been different. But the reliance on gas plants, with just in time fuel delivery,is another part of the problem.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Saying that to the kid caused a bit of trouble in the area.

The sales team is setup almost like a pyramid selling scheme. And as far as I tell they get youngsters in from an area and tell them they can get huge bonuses etc if they hit sales targets. They are very careful to get kids with large extended family's in the area. They then give them a weeks training and a new polyester suit and send them out. The extended family all sign up for it to help them out then gets their mates to sign up as well. Then the problems start when they run out of that type. The make the sales targets impossible to sustain after the first quarter which of course there is no bonus to pay for training and the polyester suit. Then out the door... And they will have been lucky to make min wage in that period.

Saying that to the kid triggered the granny mafia in the area which luckily for me doesn't speak English. It took a couple of months until the other two got sacked as I expected and then it died down. But by that point they had signed up 80% of the locals onto this nonsense on two year contracts. I suspect come May their will be a repeat performance.

As you can see with the discussion above Europe is just as exposed as USA is when it comes to all this.

Yes us solar users can make our own etc... But all that does is increase the cost to those that don't paying for the redundancy in the big system.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

davefitz,
Its no coincidence that Texas has the same problems that California had.
ENRON headquarters used to be in Houston. They invented that mechanism you speak of.
California recalled their governor, whereas Texas sent theirs to Washington and ...
Enron to California.

A couple of other things turned up.
1, Texas grid does not pay for standby capacity, so there never is any. With that in mind, no surprise that the nukes were down.
2. Texas requires that power companies report their winterization activities.
3. Texas does not require that power companies do any winterization.


Pipes in TX are shallow, but not for water table reasons. Most soil in TX "never" freezes, so no burial depth, i.e. insulation blanket, is needed.

There are two problems with unregulated prices. "Uneducated" consumers and predatory practices of companies knowingly selling "lawyers only need apply" contracts to known uneducated consumers that did not state or hid the true risk. No difference to illegal loan shark practices, or doctors and engineers practising without a license. You can be near sure that these contracts, now that they are known to exist, will and need to be banned. The SEC would not allow any similar such contracts to be sold to any but "highly experienced" investors.

Allister, No. You are doing good work in spite of using solar. Spain was charging an extra grid connection fee, if you had solar panels and a grid connection. The logic was to share the grid and running cost expenses, even if you did not really use it much. You had to pay for the "backup" you were using. It is logical, but the new liberal government did away with that, because, as it increased the price of renewable energy, it was overly contrary to the legally required national policy goal of reducing fossil fuel use and meeting CO2 reduction targets. That is also logical, because those in reality have a greater cost. The "Solar Tax" was repealed.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
personally I don't have an issue with paying an amount for reserve. It could be cash or a set number of kWh injected.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

WARNING the following is a copy of a predatory power sale company's website responsible for that $17,000 bill mentioned above.

I won't print the company name, or provide a link.

Quote:


Wholesale pricing icon
Get Wholesale Prices
Get access to wholesale electricity for $9.99 a month.
You’ll pay exactly the price we buy electricity at.

Pay-as-you-go-billing icon
Pay-as-you-go billing
Our prepaid billing system is easy and automated.
Get started by adding just $49 to your account.

circle checkmark icon
We Handle the Rest
We’ll contact your current provider to switch you over to #$%#%&**@.
You don’t do a thing.

This is all the warning you get!

Quote:

The wholesale price of electricity is set by the grid operator, ERCOT, and can change every five minutes depending on supply and demand. When there is excess energy on the gird, prices drop and can even go negative, which means you are getting paid to use electricity (awesome!). And when demand is high like on hot summer days or winter storms, prices can spike. The highest the price can go to is $9/kWh (which has only ever happened 0.005% of the time.) Most of the time though, 96.9% to be exact, it is below the Texas Average of 6.8¢/kWh

Quote:

Current price 1.4c/kWh

So, don't YOU want to click now?
Note that they only mention the average and highest high. Nothing about any other brackets. What if there were significant time periods at $1, $2 or $3.

A great example of black swans. They don't happen that often, but WHEN they DO, they will be significant and almost certainly life changing events. Consider those outliers very carefully.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Yes we can install a GT and never run it, except to proof it, and we make money.

What a concept.

So should I ask, what type of crop should I never plant that I can make money on?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Ask the farmers. I think milk is out of fashion. They have the current list..
Maybe "weed" qualifies too.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Personally I would rather have the freedom to make mistakes than have ridiculously overpriced "protection" foisted upon me as it is overseas, that's one of the main reasons I chose to live stateside. Sure, some folks got stuck with a high bill this month yet I'd wager they didn't complain about years of low prices prior. We have always chose fixed utility pricing for the same reason we chose fixed rate mortgages - bc life's too short to gamble for little reward. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for folks choosing to ignore common sense/knowledge and enter a risky contract.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Your choice of freedom is responsible for half a million... and counting. Your call...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

We get compensated if there is a power outage for more then 12 hours minimum 120 USD and upwards and we can ask for compensation for damages.
Not delivering is a breach of the contract.

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Just to show that the USA is not special this is where I think things will fall over in the EU in the not so distant future.

https://www.europeanscientist.com/en/features/the-...

The strange thing to me is that the reactors in Belgium are French made and built. Its been an on going argument for years about them.


But exactly the same design and materials used reactors are operating in France and nothing has been said about them having issues. Which triggers my sniff test BS alarm.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Perhaps just a lower price from France, or maybe a larger "incentive".

I certainly don't have any sympathy for hedge funds. They knowingly make money from other's misery and lose money by making others miserable. This is not that same situation. This could easily have happened to your sister, mother, or grandmother. Would you say the same?

What does sympathy cost anyway? Is somebody charging for it? Seems to be in very short supply.
Doesn't cost me all that much.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

"BS alarm" I get. smile
But why some one would install a GT "Gin an Tonic" and never run it, I do not understand?
And how to grow them?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I just can't see the same reactor design built by the same people using the same materials not having similar issues with cracking etc to reactors built 300km away in a different country.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

That can be a long distance between the dots. It could easily depend entirely on QA/QC, or maybe just one inspector's previous evening.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Its quite interesting what they were finding in Belgium. Its worth while having a search on it. The problems are not small and they are pretty fundamental mostly to do with materials

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

So the materials were not supplied with the same properties or qualities?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The reactors in Belgium where not even built by the same constellation of manufacturers and all of them isn't built the same year.
It's seems that material fatigue in different forms in the reactor vessel's steel rings are the problem.

Best Regard A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Its linked to aging and neutron exposure, There is also some hydrogen cracking thrown in for good measure.

I can't do it justice its extremely interesting both how they found it and how they NDT'd it.

Both reactors with the issues were built by RDM forging. And they built a lot more than 2.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

NDT'd ? Sorry, hade to ask.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
NOne Destructive Testing

Ultrasound, XRay, die pen are all forms of it.

They used some fancy new way of doing ultrasound to find and 3D map the cracks with those reactors. Its quiet in depth and you need to chase your tail in circles if you want to find out the big picture which is why I am not even going to attempt it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

We do a lot of ultrasound and X-Raying at the factory, It's for kvalité checks of welding's and Heat Area Zons.
Not shore we do it in 3D though, but is wouldn't surprise me.
We do almost everything els in 3D nowadays.
Hade my office behind theirs earlier, so have a fair picture of how it works, could not easily explain it though.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
You might be interested in it as well then.

It was developed in 2010 I think. Ultra sonics is an easy concept to grasp I found but to actually know what's going on and the art of interpreting the pictures never mind setting up the test takes years to master.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Yes I always found it fascinating how they knew what they saw when doing ultra sound on mothers and the fetuses,
even though they at least knew what they are looking for..

When I was working in the summers when I was young I was at the archive of the X-ray department in the hospital.
An ordinarie X-ray is at least something you can se and understand at least if it's on a human.

But not exactly knowing what you are looking for or how it looks, yes I can imagine it is a skill, he who is doing it at work, has done it for at least 25 years.

Best Regards A

PS. That is partly why the elevator horn on the SE-MES annoys me. sad

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I was given the task of implementing personal safety preventive maintenance on the presses.
One thing that must be ensured is that the ram does not fall down, which can happen if the pipe on the minus side of the cylinder cracks or comes off.
Not all presses have safety valves directly on the cylinder minus side connection.
I suggested they check the tubes with ultrasound once a year, never know how it went.
i know we have a portable unit.
One problem was that it is not possible to access whole pipe.
But the for the most part the fatigue and cracking is in HAZ around the welding.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote:

Your choice of freedom is responsible for half a million... and counting. Your call...

Vague much? Half a million what?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

As I recall , the recent french and belgium nuclear reactor materials issues were related to the "anomalous" head forgings for the top and bottom pressure vessel heads forged at the le Creusot foundry. The technology used at that old foundry was unable to ensure equal carbon distribution throughout the forging , leading to sections of the heads that exceed the max allowable carbon content. This implies its fatigue life and ductility do not meet the code requirements, and the problem goes back to all forgings made at Creusot over the last 30 yrs. A review of the NDT records demonstrated fraudulent changes to the documents was needed to qualify these large pieces, and many EU nuclear plants had to be re-inspected a few years ago as a result. It has to be mentioned that today's UT equipment is far more accurate than that of 30 yrs ago , so cracks and "anomalies" that could not be detected before are now discoverable. Future nuclear plants will use forgings from japanese or russian foundries, which are more modern and can meet the required specification. The new reactor at flammanville 3 will continue to used the out of spec heads for a few years, but then replace them after a few years of operation, while hoping that severe thermal transients do not occur until then. This implies there will be another shortage of power during the outage needed to replace those heads. I am willing to bet they will rationalize more years of operation before replacement. The process used to rationalize the initial use of out of spec heads is a remarkable example of how politics overrules science , hands down.

The need for reserve capacity increases as more intermittent renewable capacity is added. In particular, a large wind storm will cause all turbines in that wind farm to shut down at the same time , to avoid overspeed of the turbines. This implies reserve capacity must quickly startup typically with no more than a 30 minute lead warning. This can be addressed by simple cycle gas turbines, and combined cycle plants that are maintained in a hot spinning reserve mode, which can be accomplished by adding a small "pony" gas turbine with small hrsg to hold the steam turbine at minimum load needed to prevent last blade recirculation issues. To avoid the need for large natural gas pipelines, it may be feasible to fuel these reserve units with either oil storage or other liquid hydrocarbon storage tanks sufficient for a few days of operation.The method of paying for that reserve capacity is another matter for the policy makers that want green energy, and it represents another cost penalty that needs to be added to the cost estimate of wind farms.

As I mentioned in earlier posts, the energiwiende that shocked the EU 12 yrs ago led to the premature retirement of over 20 GWe of brand new 50 Hz combined cycle plants in germany , so there may be available a lot of "grey market" slightly used combined cycle plants availalbe at 10% of their intial cost.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (davefitz)

In particular, a large wind storm will cause all turbines in that wind farm to shut down at the same time

Do wind turbines have fixed blades or are the blades angle adjustable as on a helicopter or constant speed propeller with a governor?

Yes they have the possibility for pumped storage against the border to Luxemburg, I have been on a car trip there it's quit hilly terrain.
Or they can buy pump storage capacity from Norway as Holland do.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
they are adjustable pitch the same as aircraft. When the wind gets to high they feather them so they don't turn.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Okay thanks.
to avoid overspeed of the turbines.
I am not shore what is deemed as over speed?
Looking at the tests of the turbin engines from the "Flight from Denver blows engine on takeoff" thread.
It seems a turbin motor like that can generate a lot of "speed" rpms without braking.
So why cant a wind turbin handle the same?
Is it just bad construction?
Or a standard that have not been questioned?

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Tip speed is one - The wind farm turbines are enormous so tip speed can get very big for what seem like relatively low RPM, and forces on the blade, hub and tower increase.

At 60 rpm ( one rev per second), tip speed is already ~250m/sec.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Okey, so if you want to have a wind turbine in stormy wheatear you make the blades shorter ?
Which makes them less effective at low windspeeds if you do not put in more blades ?

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

2
Yes it is common that wind machines will shut off at high wind, so it is possible to lose over 100 MW of energy in a very short time. That short time loss is hard to follow with a gas turbine, or diesel engines, that currently have very fastest ramp rates.
The best way to follow is to have several larger machines (including steam units) at less than full capacity, and ready to ramp as soon as the wind becomes unavailable.
This is part of the problem is that now a utility can't fully load the bigger machines, because they need them available for a loss of the renewables.
Not just reserve, but fast reserves. This fast ramp is hard on some of the machines, but that cost is not factored into the cost of power for the renewables.

Good news is battery storage can match the ramp rates needed for renewables, but then it is no longer available for peaking service. And the battery technology itself can have a high disposal cost.

Most peaking plants that also provide reserve power, are about 15 minute start up.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

There is some debate about relative merits of the power sources. I do think there may be an attempt to put spin on the conclusion from various sides. I'm not convinced I know the full story. But I did try to think through it from some publicly available information. Take it fwiw, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything (even though I do have an occupational stake in one of these power sources, so I have a reason to be biased if you want to view it that way).

We hear wind lost as a fraction of total lost is small. To my thinking, that shouldn't matter when comparing power sources, what should be relevant is (wind lost as a fraction of total wind) vs (nuclear lost as a fraction of total nuclear) vs (gas lost as a fraction of total gas), vs (coal lost as a fraction of total coal). Also there is some question about the denominator total... should it be total in service at the time or total forecast and more importantly what is the timeframe of that forecast. I've heard some people say wind was high in comparison to forecast, I don't know details of the forcast timeframes they're looking at and how it would compare to the others.

At any rate below I inserted an interesting graph of power vs time during the event from EIA. You ca look at the power over different timeframes, it's not necessarily straightforward. I'll put some numbers in but there is some subjectivity in that process.

The power sources in the graph are wind, nuclear, gas, coal. It appears coal and nuclear are baseload - they operate at constant load. It appears the wind and solar follow their own daily cycle (not following demand, just putting out everything they can which varies on a daily cycle) and the gas is dispatched in a time-variable fashion to match demand (we have to give gas credit for apparently being the most flexible among these sources).

The fraction of gas lost is (44-33)/44= 25% instantly ~4AM Moonday and (44-26)/44= 38% for the 3-day period M/T/W. Maybe I penalized them too much for starting at 44 which was probably a daily peak but oh well.

The fraction of coal lost looks to be 10% instantly and 30% for the M/T/W period.

The fraction lost of nuclear is exactly 25% instantly and 25% for the M/T/W period (1 out of 4 almost-identical plants tripped early Monday and came back Thursday).

The fraction of wind lost is 0 instantly maybe 40-50% for the three day period from the prior few days average. More importantly it decreased to 0 Monday night which is exactly when it was needed most to my thinking (that was the coldest time in my area of the state).

The fraction of Solar lost is not much but it goes to 0 at night when winter heat demand is highest so it is not helping much in this scenario.



Wind didn't have the rapid change of the others, but it was not particularly the rapid change that caused the problem in this particular event (it could in others), in this event there was sustained deficit of power generation and wind decreased as much or more than any of the other sources during the 3 day period. Abbot's comments were controversial and mostly rejected by the press. I didn't agree with everything he said but i think there's a kernel of truth in there depending on how you slice it. Certainly we know wind and solar are susceptible to weather even outside of extreme events, so it seems obvious the system should not be relying heavily on them. But then in a sense if ERCOT can't depend on their capacity when needed most then they are getting a free ride. In an unregulated environment where wind is already getting huge subsidies, it's part of the landscape to consider when comparing power sources.

I do realize there's a lot of other lessons to be learned and a lot of different ways to compare power sources. Winterization can probably be enhanced for any/all of these types of sources... they operate reliably up north, so they certainly should be able to do the same down south.


=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

If the blades on a windmill are variable why would you ever feather them? Wouldn't you just reduce pitch so they extract less power from the air allowing the load to keep the speed constant?

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I see that there is blue for hydro in the above chart but there is no line?
Then it hard to get a proper picture when the lines are not on top of each other.

This is the chart for Sweden to day.


We use hydro to even out the wind power, I have no data on how fast ju can ramp up, but I would say you just need to pull the plug.

If there would be any possibility the create a hydro storage for balancing the wind power, for Texas and for Belgium why choose something els?

And for a small country as Belgium it will not work to be alone and not exchange power with others when needed.

And if the loss from wind farms get so great when storming it would be advisable not to put all the eggs in ones basket, rather try to have them in smaller groups in different places.

And I know it is easier in all ways to have them all in one place, and you choose location from the best wind possibility's.
But sometimes you maybe have to make other priorities to be safe, maybe not something for Texas though winky smile

Or maybe you need to have 2/3 wind generators for normal conditions an 1/3 that really can utilize the stormy winds when the others stops working?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

High Anna.

We have no hydro in our state. Certainly in my part of the state, it's very flat and the rivers are slow.

I haven't heard much discussion of storage as an option. I think a more typical use is to help accommodate variably daily supply (wind, solar) and variable daily demand rather than to accommodate sustained loss of generation sources. I'm not sure. Maybe there is something we're missing.

The windfarms are installed by individual investors whereever they want. As far as I know there is no guidance from the state on where that has to be, so no central coordination over where they end up installed (other than they have to build up the transmission system to install them in some locations).


> then it hard to get a proper picture when the lines are not on top of each other.

I like it in the format I had before for the purposes of judging how each type of power varied over time and what fraction of each is lost. But here is similar format to what you described for the recent Texas event. I guess it does do a better job at showing the steady increase in total demand up to that winter peak record 67GW and the sharp decrease where multiple sources tripped and then continued decrease even as demand should have been going up as it continued to get colder throughout the day on the 15th (our coldest night was the night of the 15th / morning of the 16th... where the graph stops at 00:00 on the 16th would have been near coldest albeit not a normal power peak time).



=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The tan and the brown are really bad... and will have to be phased out in the immediate future...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Freezing rain is utterly hellish to deal with)


Most difficult driving condition... and dangerous...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

...and rips electrical systems apart.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Cranky,

Batteries are being used already for peaking service in the U.S. The PUC in California turned down applications for peaking units for battery storage. In Miso, the fiscal parity point is looking to be around 2025. Battery storage being used as peaker generation is going to be more a reality as Li-ion prices drop.

You always had spinning reserves and you need them with wind and solar. The larger the footprint of wind or solar, the less variability there is in the forecast. Wind turbines in ERCOT feather their blades to reducing ramping. The grid was almost taken down in 2009 with hard ramp rates. It is better but areas with high penetration like NC and CA do have frequency control problems. No longer having as much system inertia is a problem that hasn't been solved. The newer wind turbines use power electronics in how they are connected to the grid and supposedly can supply artificial inertia but nothing is simpler than tons of steel spinning.

This is idea that units ran all out at 100% isn't really accurate. The markets in MISO and ERCOT close out with reliability taking presentent over price. That is why you will see very efficient units not running all out all the time. I believe all ISO regions run state estimators and do continuous real time contingency analysis.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Mainly OVERHEAD power lines.
the buried, not so much

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

WE all know double posting is frowned upon , but I would ask that I be cut a bit of slack on this one. Post Texas , I believe this post deserves wide exposure and would really interested in suggestions.

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=479718

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
We used to have army vehicles that were capable of doing this to charge radio power packs. And they were being used 40 years ago.

There was a hand throttle in the front that you could set. They pumped out 24V. It would be relatively easy to exchange the battery charger for an inverter on the end of the output.

We used to call them Clansmen rovers. They had a beefed up generator on them.

Found a pic of the back of them. The black box at the bottom had the "hotel" batteries in them for internal use and there was a plug at the back that you could plug the command post setup into. But from memory it used hellish amounts of fuel.


RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Fischstabchen I think they are going to bring in mandatory dynamic reactive production control controlled by ripple receivers on solar in Germany if its not already come in at small producer level.

My German made inverter can do it and they can vary it between a power factor of 0.8-1-0.8 I don't have the ripple receiver. There has been news emails coming out from them about it and improvements in the system but only in German. They have a smart meter which goes on the feed in link. And they have now set things up via ethernet so you can control and it can control the whole site. Before you needed one smart meter per inverter and things could get into a funny oscillating mode as they all did there own thing. With this they all get set to the same what ever the power company wants it to be not just to track 1

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I think the recent Texas power fiasco was greatly worsened by the loss of natural gas capacity, as the backup power supply of gas fired combustion turbines could not provide the needed power. A similar loss of natural gas supply used to be common in Florida due to hurricane disruption of supplies sourced from the gulf of mexico gas rigs and undersea pipelines.

To address this, Florida had mandated all gas turbine plants to be "dual fuel" and to have a large storage tank of low sulphur oil to carryover the plant for a few days of hurricane gas disruption. In Texas, the same solution could be implemented if it is less costly than retrofitting the gas wells and gas treatment facilities for frigid conditions. The oil tanks could be filled during a low point of oil cost that may occur in the summer.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

We have started to build up systems that uses electrical car batteries as backup and contributing to balancing.
When the cars are parked and connected to the grid for charging, they can also deliver power back to the grid if needed.
Right now I think it is mostly done by larger companies with there own parking garage and car fleets.
When it is high peak during the day, the cars delivers power to the grid and when the demands is less high they charge.
At a power outage they can keep the building powered.
I think this also will be a more utilized when there is more electric cars out there.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
A bit of amusement....

Taken from a solar forums. Everyone getting very excited about the possibility of having a self charging car :D

I banged out after getting flamed for mentioning the second law of thermo and suggesting googling perpetual motion machines. And my only supporter was someone saying it won't work because the earth is flat......

Apparently having this fitted would have solved the Texas power issues.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

smile There where the same discussion /augmenting involved with electric bicycles.
Someone sade they had made a self charging bicycles.
Someone else sade you can't claimed it's self charging.
Which the manufacturer never really claimed, the bike charged the battery in downhill slopes which meant you didn't have to charge the battery as often with grid power.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I think EV's have regeneration systems in them anyway with braking and going down hill.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Why does one propeller planes and wind generators often have three blades and not more?

I know from former colleagues that have started the work on WGs that there is a issue with the blade when it passes the column.
And if I do not get this right someone will probably fix it for me winky smile

The wind need to pass on the sides on the column so it compresses and an gets more speed on the sides.
When the blade passes in front of the column the pressure is different front and back, from what it was when its not in front of the column.
I don't remember if the blade is pressed against the column or from it.
But they say that the constant wiggling on the generator bearings and axis, isn't good.
I always thought that it could be solved with same aero dynamic change to the column, but I don't know if someone is working with things like that.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
There is also something to do with pressure build up in front of the disk.

I don't have a clue about wind generation turbines. The high powered turboprops have also sorts of fancy tweaks to get as much power as they can into the airflow but not let anything go super sonic. I think it also depends as well where they want the sweet spot so low wind speeds need a different setup to high.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

2
Less than three blades on a wind turbine is difficult to mechanically balance.

As the number of blades goes up, torque under high slip goes up, but design slip efficiency goes down.
This makes the solid disc full of blades is ideal for a water pump, they need starting torque.

Generators have very low starting torque requirements.

Fred

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Two blades at 10 and 2 o'lock in stronger winds balances 1 blade at 6.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Also, blades are very expensive. The design of 3 blades is to maximize output per unit material. I studied wind turbines for a short time in the very beginning of my career. You can find all sorts of blade designs and configurations out there, but the 3 blade design tends to be the most efficient for large turbines.

Andrew H.
www.MotoTribology.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I'm still thinking through wind vs the other sources and I think I need to argue myself back in the other direction.

Quote (electricpete)

Wind didn't have the rapid change of the others, but it was not particularly the rapid change that caused the problem in this particular event (it could in others), in this event there was sustained deficit of power generation and wind decreased as much or more than any of the other sources during the 3 day period.

Let's think about those other scenarios.

Quote (Tribune)


What they're saying is if the operators did not take prompt action to reduce load by initiating partial blackouts, then the entire Texas grid could have gone down, tripping every generating plant offline. I imagine grid frequency would decay and generator underfrequency trips would occur (we have underfrequency trip somewhere around 58.5hz I think). Once generating plants start tripping on underfrequency, then the underfrequency condition just gets even worse until everything trips. Underfrequency poses an overexcitation V/hz hazard to transformers and generators but I think there are sufficient protections built in to trip these machines before damage. So even without equipment damage you are still left trying to bootstrap the grid back up using plants with blackstart capability and building out from there, having to parallel areas that were recovered independently. I'm not sure if months long is accurate but I can easily imagine weeks long and a heckuva lot worse than it was. Perhaps if a few more large plants had tripped at almost the same time early AM on 2/15 there wouldn't have been enough time for the operators to react to save the grid. But wind by its nature is smaller separated plants so while they did experience a very large drop from 9GW all the way down to almost zero over a 24 hours period, it was not such a rapid change that it would contribute to that worst case loss of grid scenario.




=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

There are books on the blade design. There are multiple things to balance, but more or less as blade count goes up the rated power rpm or design rpm goes down. So, you have to balance the wind speed vs rpm during the design. The rpm is important because a lower operating rpm makes it harder to turn the mechanical rotation into electrical power. So, you balance the diameter and rpm to get an optimal tip speed ratio all the while ensuring you aren't moving the blades too fast because the faster they move through the air the more they get damaged by airborne debris.

From what I've read, 2-blade designs would be ideal from a generation point of view, but they move much faster so more blade damage over time and harder to balance and harder on bearings plus they apparently have a shudder due to gyroscopic effects when yawing.

Lots of people believe otherwise, but adding more blades to "fill in" the blade circle doesn't capture more wind or make more power.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

If all 200 million US cars were electric cars and were connected to the grid 75% of the time,then it might be possible to use their batteries as a sort of backup. A more realistic approach would be to modify the homeowner's load center and EV recharger to allow the car's battery to power the home's light duty circuits ( overhead lights, alarms, modems,furnace fan, and refrigerator) via the car battery during times of electrical outages. The optimum EV recharging period would normnally be during daylight hours while the EV is parked at work , so as to take advantage of the peak solar PV output to the grid; this would reduce the need for reserve power generation capacity and reduce the need to cycle thermal stations twice a day.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (itsmoked)

If the blades on a windmill are variable why would you ever feather them? Wouldn't you just reduce pitch so they extract less power from the air allowing the load to keep the speed constant?
I was waiting for someone to answer this since I'm sure there are folks here that know a heckuva lot more than me about wind turbines. But since I didn't see any answer, here was my thoughts fwiw:

I think if you rotate the blade closer to perpendicular to the wind then it presents more area to the wind and there is too much wind loading force (and stress) on the blade itself. If you rotate the trailing edge further away from the wind then there is increased torque pushing towards overspeed even with full generator output. So above a certain windspeed there's nowhere to adjust the blades where you can keep both the blade wind-loading force and the speed within bounds. At that point you need to use a brake to lock from rotation and turn the blades further away from the wind to present minimum area.

disclaimer: that's a lot of speculation, I may be way off base.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

When we first moved to California in 1980 and we made a trip out to Palm Springs, it was the first time we'd ever seen a really large wind generation facility (and it was nothing compared to now). Note that I had seen examples of early so-called Danish windmills (i.e. wind turbines), with the classic three-blade design, but only a few at a time.

With respect to two-bladed wind turbines, that was something that we noticed when we were driving out to Palm Springs, that a lot of the wind turbines were only two-bladed and yes, they moved much faster than the three-bladed ones. Of course, as the larger three-bladed units were being installed, it seemed like the two-bladed ones were the first to be taken down to make room for the significantly larger new wind turbines, which of course were all three-bladed.

Here are some photos I took of some wind turbines which NASA was conducting experiments with. Now I'm not sure how long they had been there as we had seen the signs on the road indicating that the experimental site was there but had never stopped to take pictures until one of our later visits to the area, that is Southeastern Washington state, near Goldendale, just a few miles North of the Columbia River:


August 1984 (Minolta XG-M)


August 1984 (Minolta XG-M)

Notice how this two-bladed wind turbine used 'flaps' to, I assume, limit the speed of the turbine.


August 1984 (Minolta XG-M)

As for Palm Springs, for anyone who's never been out there, here's shot of just a small section of the wind farm, as seen from the top of Palm Springs Aerial Tramway at Mount San Jacinto State Park:


February 2016 (Sony a6000)

And, yes, those blades are very large. During our various travels across the country we've seen them being trucked (our course if you saw one, there would be at least another two further up the highway) to their installation site, like below near Salina, Kansas:


August 2017 (Sony a6000)


August 2017 (Sony a6000)

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

There was something said about having very little hydroelectric in Texas, and this is true, but one hydroelectric source is on lake Texhoma (not sure about the spelling), near Denison Texas, which is on the border between Texas and Oklahoma. This is a federal dam, as it is on the border.
However, it may have been limited by the lake level, as part of it's function is to limit flood waters.

Before tripping generators on underfrequency, I believe most plans (as mandated by NERC), trip off load prior to tripping generators. This is true on both the eastern and western grids.

Feathering of wind generators is possible, but at what point will they not be able to feather because the wind is too high?

A minor point, don't use car batteries for energy storage. Car batteries are for a short duration of energy to start a car. Storage batteries have thicker plates that can be deeper cycled to hold energy. Car batteries have thin plates with more surface area to be able to make a fast jolt of energy. Sort of like the difference in a sprinter, and a jogger. The sprinter wins a short race, but the jogger wins the long race.
Have you noticed that golf cart batteries are about the same size as a car battery? But the golf cart battery is only 6 volts, where a car battery is 12 volts.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

We shipped 3.8m ft of tubing to a power plant that required 115' straight lengths. We could do it because trailers that long exist for hauling WT blades.

At one time they were talking about putting the wind farms on their own sub-grid (like the large hydro plants). That way the average power available would only change very slowly. But no one wanted to pay for the system.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The blade count is based on manufacturing cost. More blades recover more energy from the wind but it isn't linear and becomes very incremental past 3 blades while adding more and more weight that needs to be supported. There isn't a "right" design but just designs with better returns or quicker paybacks.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

cranky108, Texoma, you were close. That is a big, beautiful lake, I camp there off and on. All the lakes in the region are always trying to strike a balance among recreation, flood control and generation (if present). Somebody is always mad at the Corps :)

The die-hard "dry" campers swap two golf cart batteries for one regular 12V for longer life, by what I read. Some of these people are fanatical about battery management, charge profiles, times, etc. I'm not one of 'em. Most times when I camp AC is involved :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Alistairs propeller bible..
Hmmm .. hmmmm ... ponder okay.. ... sorry ..
Constant speed propellers for dummies winky smile
https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/aircraft-s...
I know a constant speed propeller isn't the same as a WG;ers but in my mind it's a bit like the reversed function so there has to be some similarities in mechanical function.

idea Now I see why I don't get it, WG:s have asynchronous generator, which means that they requires a slip value of about 3% over synchronous speed, all the time to produce power.
So they need to have a blade angel that makes the rotational speed the same regardless of how much it blows.

In my mind it has always been a brushless DC generator or something like that, that produces power all the time regardless of windspeed or blade rpm.
But with a asynchronous generator you need to keep the rotational speed in a specific speed window otherwise it won't generate any power.
So it is both limited by the generator and the mechanics.

A brushless DC generator would more or less only be limited by the the mechanics.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I come from a time when cars used to have 6V batteries...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Constant speed propellers for dummies)


neat link...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Anna;
You asked about the time to ramp up and down on a hydro plant.
The limit is the inertia of the moving water in the penstocks.
Depending on the size and length, there may be hundreds of tons to thousands of tons of moving water in the penstock.
Greater output demands higher flow which means the water must be accelerated.
Ramping down too rapidly can and has been catastrophic.
The largest hydro-electric plant in Russia.
August 2009;
This was initially reported as a transfoormer explosion.
When more information became available, it was disclosed that the gates had been closed too quickly.
The resulting water hammer broke a penstock.
The flood of water destroyed at least one generator.
Then the transformer exploded.



Scroll down for more pictures
Eng-Tips discussion

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I ESD'd a 24" oil pipeline flowing 200,000 bbl/day once. Pressure went from 300 psig to 1750 in a few minutes. Relief valves opened there and filled a 10kbbl standby tank with 9.5kbbls. It was not something I'd want to do again. A lot like a 4.1 earthquake, but with more noise.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I had no idea that waterhammer could generate those pressures...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

For a perfectly rigid pipe: As the time to stop the flow approaches zero, the pressure approaches infinity.
That never happens though.
The pipe breaks first.
The hydraulic ram pump works on the water hammer principle.
A 5 foot head of running water may be used to pump water to heads of over 100 feet.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I live less then 15 km from the largest hydro power plant in Sweden Stornorrfors smile
But I think it has a different construction than the Russian one I have only been inside there ones when I was going in school.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stornorrfors_Hydroel...

Our hydro plant's are old so we have mostly long water systems (350 km of waterway) as "buffert" at least for Stornorrfors , since the fall height isn't so great.
Norway have short waterways but much higher mountains.
I am not shore if we have any hydro storages at all.
Not the way it's done in other places (with one high pond and one low one ) pumping water up, falling down.

And thanks waross for explaining your problem solution with frozen water valves smile
But I knew what a rumpus room was !
I seen to many English/American house makeover program.. winky smile

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

That's only 2m/sec BI. How fast did it close?

Must have been something other than surge?

But yes, you can get very high pressures if you stop a moving pipeline too fast

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I thought the smaller the propeller the faster it can spin. (drones 20,000rpm)
You could switch for instance from a 10 foot two bladed prop to an 8 foot 3 bladed to a 7 foot four bladed to a 6 foot 5 bladed and in each case turn it faster if desired. That due to less tip speed and less centrifugal forces. Isn't that the reason some of the WWII fighters had scads of blades.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well that was, what I was after if you want wind power that works when it really is storming, then shorter blades and higher speed would be better.
But if a asynkron generator needs to move with almost the same speed all the time independent of how much it is blowing then it want help.
It does not feel efficient.
I hope I am wrong winky smile

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I just knew you'd ask about that. Turned out that somebody closed the valve on the tanker first. That spiked me at the meter station with around 800 psi. I figured that wasn't good, whatever it was, so I closed off and told the 4 pump stations to shut down too. All those transients, must have been a bunch of column separations, plus around a thousand meters of head coming down the last mountain range made for a rough ride. It sware it was 30m before things finally got quiet again. They had just repaired the relief tank, someone put the vacuum breaker in upside down and draining the hydrotest water collapsed the top at the rim and when they left that evening, after 3 days cleaning the tank spic and span, they told me not to get the tank dirty. They were going to do the final inspection in the morning. That got delayed.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Hydro plants and water hammer.
The Russian plant had a timed closing that had been disabled or bypassed for some reason.
I have seen designs for Pelton wheels where the first action of the governor was to swing a diverter in front of the nozzle to divert some flow away from the bucket wheel. As the valve was slowly closed, the diverter would retract.
Some plants use surge towers and surge tanks to dissipate the kinetic energy of the moving water column.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Dik)

I come from a time when cars used to have 6V batteries...
Remember when they invented turn signals and brake lights?
When I took my first driver's test, we had to use hand signals when turning.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I can't remember cars without brake lights, but the fist car I ever attempted to drive, you had to press the starter button with your left foot. And the radio was AM only and there were no push-buttons.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Electripete)

What they're saying is if the operators did not take prompt action to reduce load by initiating partial blackouts, then the entire Texas grid could have gone down, tripping every generating plant offline.

Yes, the grid operator had to shed load to keep the grid running. The ERCOT Underfrequency Load Shedding Plan only requires 25% of firm load (plus some non-firm loads) to be armed for UFLS, which is far less than the 49% of generation lost during the event. UFLS is primarily designed to keep generation turbines from experiencing damage from mechanical resonances. From the ERCOT manual :

"ERCOT provides settings for under-frequency tripping (if installed) of steam turbine generators.
No tripping should occur as long as frequency remains above 59.4 HZ. As frequency falls
below 59.4 HZ, progressively faster time delayed tripping can occur. Once frequency reaches
57.5 HZ or below, the generator can be tripped with no intentional time delay."

After a generator outage, the system operator must quickly return the frequency to 60 Hz in order to ensure the frequency stays above the generator under frequency tripping set points for the NEXT outage. If the system were allowed to persist operating at a lower operation point a small additional frequency dip could lead to generators tripping. Today's ERCOT presentation states that the system was below 59.4 Hz for more than 4 minutes and dropped as low as 59.3 Hz.

A few things make it important to keep large safety margin regarding UFLS:
1) The load armed for UFLS may not be representative of the overall load mix. Having a large amount of irrigation load armed for a summer UFLS plan is worthless during the winter. Likewise, arming heating loads for a winter UFLS plan will underperform during a summer outage.
2) UFLS rarely operates, so there is little opportunity to compare actual performance to the predicted performance. Last time it operated within my region, there were many lessons learned.
3) The off nominal frequency behavior of both generation and load is not precisely modeled in power grid simulation software. Linearizing assumptions often help simplify the models for a small ranges of frequency but at the cost of inaccuracy for large frequency variations.
4) The inertia of the grid changes as the types of generation shifts. This occurs both on an hourly basis throughout the day and due to long term trends.
5) The inertia of the grid continues to be reduced as more motors are moved variable frequency drives (VFDs).
6)Loads armed for UFLS might also be tripped for other reasons. It is challenging to avoid double counting UFLS loads when the same load might also be part of Under Frequency Load Shedding, have a manual rotating load shed plan, and be experiencing a weather related outage.

As to how long a black start might take, today's comment from ERCOT’s CEO seems pretty spot on to me:

"If we have a blackout of the system, the system is out for an indeterminate amount of time, and it's extraordinarily difficult to bring it back. We might still [5 days later] be talking about when's the power coming back on if we let the system get to that condition."

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

the "Nice" size steam turbines of the 80's design were designed assuming grid frequency would be fairy stable.

Off frequency operation would place the longer buckets (blades to layman or if reaction design) into resonace vibration and just a few minutes operation would make breakage a high probibility. Part of the turbine monitoring were totalizers to recorded accumlate time at off frequency.

I recall having to discuss this when operations observed those requirements to "hang on" durring upsets.

also, ramping a steam turbine to compensated for system load swings expend the cyclic life of the rotating componets (ie, bending the paper clip) thus the more ramps, the more maintence replacing components (or failures)

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote:

ERCOT officials stated that natural gas plants failed the most in the cold weather. Wind generators also had trouble, but overperformed at times. "There were a lot of issues around gas supply during this event, Magness said. "What I like to emphasize here is the storm affected every generation type."

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I know our town stores NG in a serpentine pipeline in the PG&E service yard. I think it's good for running town for something like 8 hours. That's stored at high PSI.

Can you store NG in those floating tanks for a power plant? Or is that unrealistic with maybe the plant consuming a tank's worth in a day? I'm sure those tanks store it at a hideously low pressure.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

BI - Of course I would. I've always found it interesting that an ESD is something that is often designed and never tested in anger because of the potential consequences....

But at least you didn't overtop the relief tank eh?

If you get into column separation and vacuum collapse then you can see massive spikes and flow disturbance going back and forward. I guess sitting there and just watching the pressure climb and climb with no way of stopping it is kind of scary.

A bit like the grid operators we're talking about. Then you need to make really fast decisions or just let the automatic systems do their job and then deal with the consequences.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Gases and liquefied gases of any pressure must be stored in spheres or bullet tanks, although they are at times stored at near atmos pressure in "gas holder" tanks.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_holder
Floating or fixed roof tanks are very low pressure, basically just for containment of the liquids themselves and fumes from slight off gassing or to control evaporation losses.

LI, .. Looking over your shoulder for places to take cover.
They must call them relief valves, because you are very relieved when they finally stop.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Keith,

It must be a might small town if they can build up enough gas to feed it for 8 hours.

Or a very big serpentine.

The big gas holders which go up and down are at only a few inches water columns (9 or 12 inches from memory)

So a) they would need pressuring to about 25 or 30 bar for injection into the gas turbines and would last about 5 minutes max.

Gaseous gas storage is about as difficult as storing electricity. Can be done but very expensive and only really designed for peak shaving, not wholescale replacement and wouldn't last long if it did (hours rather than days).

Some European countries have significant gas storage as strategic reserve as the rely on Russia to be friendly and not turn off their supply, but even then it's expensive to do and will only last a few days / weeks maximum.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

We store liquid butane in a cylindrical, fixed roof tank. The tank holds 500,000 barrels. We keep the butane liquid and keep the pressure low by refrigerating the tank. The refrigeration systems is quite large and complex. We use the butane as a gasoline blending stock in winter. If we wanted to vaporize it to burn in our heaters, it would require another system for vaporization.

This tank is gradually filled over the course of the summer and then blended into gasoline over the course of the winter. So, it is always being filled or drained, depending on the season.

Before we built this tank, we used to ship our butane to Texas by pipeline where they pumped it into deep underground salt domes. So, Texas has the capacity to store large quantities of LPG.

Johnny Pellin

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Most large frame gas turbines require inlet fuel gas pressures between 500-900 psig ( 34-61 atm) at the inlet to their fuel gas control system. A base loaded designed plant may be provided with a fuel gas booster compressor to adress low pipeline gas pressure, but many of the simple cycle "peakers" might not have such booster compressors, as the normal interstate pipeline presure may be over 900 psig. In the case of this recent Texas fiasco, the gas pipeline pressure dropped , likely below the minimum pressure needed to startup or operate the "peakers", which led to a cascade of loss of peaker generation. Either a backup liquid fuel should be stored at those sites or the gas pipeline freeze up problems need to be adddressed.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The issue usually isn't storage, but the capacity to turn this into (very) large quantities of gas very quickly.

Same thing as all the other issues - No one wants to pay for equipment which is used for 10 days every 5 years.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Are there any other gas storage/replacement systems in operation, other than the Air/Propane plant my company operates?
Now because of the rate caps, our company is discussing how to recoop the high gas prices we had to pay for electric generation. Maybe we should have used coal, as that price is fixed.

As above, water hammer is an issue at hydro plants, and deverter vanes are used for fast tripping of a newer hydro unit. The older units used a second lower valve that would open, and miss the buckets.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

cranky, did you have an issue with loss of gas supply, gas prices, or both?
The solution may depend on how much gas you use and when and for what ultimate purpose. Such as building HVAC, self power gen, industrial furnace, growing tomatoes, etc. and your location relative to pipelines, rail, harbors.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I'm not in Texas, but yes gas prices for pipeline gas did go up quite a bit.

I don't know how much distribution gas we used, or even how much gas we used at out power plants.
In fact the high gas and energy usage thing just came out early this week. I do know we did set a new Winter peak. Which usually happens around late December.

As I said, maybe we should have used coal, but I don't know at what point each of our plants are at.
Just that several of the hydro plants are frozen at this time of the year.

I honestly don't know what our customers do with the energy. It is not good business to dig into that for me.
I believe about 50% or more of the energy used are homes.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (As I said, maybe we should have used coal)


Really bad idea... too big a carbon footprint.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Interesting challenges about gas storage and retrieval outlined by LittleInch. I always heard it generally had to come through the pipelines at the time it was needed but never gave much thought as to why.

Different subject...
Texas’ Power Grid Was 4 Minutes And 37 Seconds Away From Collapsing. Here’s How It Happened

It's an interesting story with graph showing frequency going below 59.4hz for 4 minutes (and timeline annotated on the graph). There are repeated references to ERCOT having to tell (order) power providers to reduce the demand. That makes sense in view of bacon4life's explanation of ERCOT underfrequency load shedding where only 25% of load is equipped for automatic UF load shedding, but a higher fraction of generation tripped, so further manual actions for load shedding were required.

So avoiding that total collapse scenario relied on humans communicating/acting fast enough. Even though there was almost a 9 GW decrease in wind generation over 24 hour period, it was very gradual so probably would not contribute to that particular scenario. On the other hand if we had a large block of generation trip suddenly when we were already down at 59.4hz, who knows what would have happened (and when you look at how often there were discrete losses of generation on that timeline, it seems like just a matter of luck that no generation loss occurred during the 4 minute period below 59.4hz).


=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

A guy I work with has some buddies in the gas industry. Here is the story about why (at least some of) the gas went down... as they told him, which he told me, which I'm now telling you (3rd hand... take it with suitable grains of salt )

Apparently the gas comes out of the well with moisture in it. So they inject some kind of solution into the gas to keep it from freezing (I think of it as anti-freeze). Of course they need pumps to inject that anti-freeze solution at the proper pressure. They don't have any electricity handy, so how do they power them? They use something similar to a compressed air motor, except since they don't have compressed air, these anti-freeze injection pumps are powered by the pressure of the available gas.

BUT the gas that is used to power the gas-powered anti-freeze injection pump itself froze... because there was no provision for adding anti-freeze to the gas that powers the anti-freeze injection pump! (now I'm picturing that the pipeline tap for the gas to power the injection pump must have been upstream of the injection point rather than downstream, although it wasn't described to me in those terms).

It seems like a dumb design in retrospect, but had been that way forever and the folly was never revealed... until now.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Someone described the south texas project unit trip above. I heard it was due to a 6' length of uninsulated fluid sensing line for sgfp suction pressure. That length of sensing line is hidden in a very obscure out-of-the way place that you have to squeeze to get to. Presumably the difficulty in getting to that particular length of pipe is why the insulators never finished their job. It is also easy to see why no-one ever noticed it.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Do you know if its back up and running again?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I heard all 4 Texas nuke plants are up and running at full capacity. The downed STP unit syncd to the grid in the afternoon 2/18 and reached full power sometimes that night.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

well gas is always produced with some, or maybe a heck of a lot of water. Water and gas can create hydrates, a crystal of ice with a gas molecule locked inside. It can begin forming plugs at around 40°F. In addition to methanol injection, the gas can be heated with inline heaters to prevent hydrates, but that also assumes the heater's gas supply has not frozen.

Apparently the grid came within 4m and some seconds from total blackout.

Cranky,
sounds like you use and actually forward gas to other customers with what is likely to be a significant volume of gas, so somewhere in your company there should be somebody responsible for large volume gas purchases and their associated sales contracts, in which case they may have direct purchase agreements with gas producers, or if they don't, they should consider investigating the possibility of making long term purchase contracts at fixed rates directly from the producers themselves. Interstate gas transmission pipelines are common carriers and will move your direct purchased gas to you at their published transportation fees that depend on distances moved into or through the various zones across their systems.

There are some power gen companies that buy LNG from the international market, arrange ocean going transport, onboard storage wile discharging and anchor the LNG carrier in the bay in front of their plant until the next LNG carrier arrives. River barges also could function in a similar manner. Some even have a small city-sized power gen on board. At Enron we did that kind of arrangement for a few countries.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

They seem to follow this 15 minutes rule in Texas too, if the fervency is under the 50 alt 60 Hz they order manuell load shedding.
Texas is big, is all this generators that went down in the same place or was the weather the same over the whole of Texas?

I get why you want to protect the the equipment from low fervency, but it seems odd that the actual maschins that are going to provide the power to keep the fervency up is allowed the to tripp if it is to low.
Instead of being powered on there own separate grid from there own power generators when they are up and running.
Not taking about freezing wells now.

Best Regards A


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

RedSnake, pretty much all of Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, maybe New Mexico. It was a BIG storm.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Just had a look at my solar inverter settings.

It will cut out below 47.5Hz after half a second and upper limit 52Hz for again half a second.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The weather only needed to get bad over the gas fields, but it was generally bad everywhere. The grid outage map was also widespread.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
How much difference does it make to things freezing up with freezing rain compared to snow?

When I use freezing rain I mean supper cooled large droplets which then freeze on touching anything giving clear ice. which I think they had loads of.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well we have some air motors at work that pumps up hydraulic pressure for some locking klamps like 325 bars.
They are in the basement under the presses there is no heating there since the machines generates so much heat themselves.
But some times it happens if some door is left open or when there was some building going on in the winter that there was a cold drop and draft and then this air motor stopped working, it was just a big lump of ice hade hack through it to get it started again.

As for compressed air motors..
We electricians, have a saying at work, -That air is for breading, and nothing else. winky smile

BR A




“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Its really bad for overhead power lines, since it builds up, and can get so heavy that it breaks the poles, and when blowing you get short circuits.
Dry snow is better.
But I guess you meant the gas wells.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (RedSnake)

I get why you want to protect the the equipment from low fervency, but it seems odd that the actual maschins that are going to provide the power to keep the fervency up is allowed the to tripp if it is to low.

bacon4life and jbyrd mentioned there are turbine resonances that form the basis for many of the turbine generator trips (you don't want to dwell at the speed where the turbine is shaking like crazy). Also as you know high V/hz overexcitation of generators and transformers can occur at lower frequencies if the voltage remains the same.

It's obviously better to trip the equipment than to destroy it. There may be some unknowns in predicting damage (how long can you operate at that resonant frequency before it "liberates" a blade or two... how low can frequency go for how long before the generator core starts to sizzle). No doubt there is some margin in the setpoints to accommodate those unknowns (leaning towards the side of tripping when in doubt, rather than keeping on line when in doubt).

I can see that removing UF trips of generators would make the system less likely to collapse. But if the nightmare scenario of grid collapse takes weeks to recover from... the double-nightmare scenario of damaged generators and transformers throughout the system has gotta be a heckuva lot worse... it's hard to even contemplate.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Thanks BI, LI, JJPellin on gas storage issue.


davefitz; Had no idea they needed that kind of injection pressure into large frame turbines. WOW!

Learning a crap-ton in this thread!

Thanks everyone.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Minor point, but . . .

Quote (electricpete (Electrical) 25 Feb 21 22:33 )


bacon4life and jbyrd mentioned there are turbine resonances that form the basis for many of the turbine generator trips (you don't want to dwell at the speed where the turbine is shaking like crazy)

For bucket (blade) resonaces, think of each blade as a tuning fork. as steam turbines got bigger, the buckets longer, avoiding a resonace is a serious desing chalalnge. the senister aspect is the felt "vibration" of the spinning element doesnot change, just those individul buckets buzzing and fatigue life being expended.

just throwing concept out there, a bucket is operating between its 6th to 7th harmotic

lot of bucket designers with all types of damping / deturning practices

(bucket design was way above my pay grade, just passing alone why I was told of importance to avoid off frequency operation for certain units)


Another concern I was begining to hear during my last days, prior turbine controls were design to have the absolute minimun dead band, thus valves responded to increase / decrease output with every wiggle in frequency. the smaller generation being connected to the grid were "working the hell" out of older steam turbines chasing very small freq disturbances. (I was hearing the introduction of deadband SETTINGS with digital controls)

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

2
We just went through a week of minus 40 degrees.
The wind chill went to the chilly side of minus 50C.
The coal generating plant about that is 40 miles north of my place is converting to gas and I understand is running both gas and coal.
The coal generating plant about that is 40 miles south of my place is converting to gas and I understand is running both gas and coal.
We heat with gas.
The water supply for my son's horses did not freeze up.
The heat stayed on in the chicken coop.
Life went on as usual.
In Texas?
I don't see an engineering failure.
There is no shortage of engineering solutions to operating almost any equipment in cold weather.
I do see a planning failure in the MBA's board rooms.
Texas was not an engineering failure.
It was more a failure of corporate foresight that seldom extends beyond the next dividend dispersal.
Without mandates originating outside of the board rooms, this will happen again in Texas.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (I don't see an engineering failure.)


Concur... and one that caused needless deaths.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The CEO of ERCOT, in testimony before the Texas legislature today, when asked what he would do different next time, said he probably wouldn't do anything different. In fact, he bragged that despite the fact that some people died, which he said was unfortunate but he implied that it wasn't his job to save lives, rather it was to keep the grid from collapsing and that things worked the way they were supposed to. The grid never actually went down completely and that they eventually got everything up and running again. And when asked whether they should make changes to better protect the gas supply and things like that, from the cold weather, he said that he saw nothing that would prompt him to do so. He seemed to suggest that since this isn't something that happens every year or so, that there was no need to make any changes.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Found this video explaining a bit about how steam turbines work.
I need pictures to get the picture winky smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPg7hOxFItI

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (he probably wouldn't do anything different. In fact, he bragged that despite the fact that some people died, which he said was unfortunate)


For liability reasons, he cannot say anything different... he should be charged with negligent homicide.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Careful redsnake your going to open the can of worms which is the entropy-enthalpy fun and games. If you crack that your only a couple of steps away from becoming a mechie.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (JohnRBaker)

He seemed to suggest that since this isn't something that happens every year or so
Well I wouldn't count on that, it will happen more often in the future, and the increase will be exponential.

Quote (dik)

For liability reasons, he cannot say anything different...
To much demand for liability in form lawsuits is to some extent contra productive to getting the problems solved and making changes to secure future damages.
Both due to people not wanting to speak out and money being spent on damages payments instead of improving system failures.

Best Reagards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Alistair)

If you crack that your only a couple of steps away from becoming a mechie.

Well when I was going to choose what to become in life, one om my planes was actually becoming a flight mechanic!
But my parents didn't want that, but not knowing much about what different occupations really meant I guess I was all over the place like vet, hairdresser, garden architect, florist.
It was my aunt's husband who persuaded me to go to a technical theoretical education.
And also choose electrical power engineering after 2 years, I was more into in the process of becoming a chemist.
It's fun to blow things up winky smile or not..
But he always said that it does not matter what they do with the energy production in the future.
Electrician will always be needed, so you will never be without a job.
All other industries go up and down but not electric power production/distribution and consumption.

I was actually going to suggest doing a mimicry on owl wings for turbine blades but I see that it seems like someone else has already started with it smile

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (It's fun to blow things up winky smile or not.)


Take my word for it... it's fun... even used a blasting cap for a mousetrap in my younger days...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I ones saved a mouse from a mouse trap, it was a plastic one looking like clothespin in the stable.
It was stuck with a paw in it and was climbing up some harness dragging the mousetrap with it.
The only thanks I got was it bit me in the finger, it did not go through the skin though.

I had mice as pets when I was little so I'm pretty used to catching them when they escaped without killing them smile

A mouse had escaped and gone under the floor, there was a hole where the water pipe from the element went down.
And it only came out at night but we he never catch it before slimming down the hole again.
So my sister and I took a piece of string and tied a piece of sausage on it, and then we waited, so when the mouse came up and tried to drag the sausage down under the floor, we pulled the sausage in the other direction until it was far enough away that one of us could clog the hole so we could catch it.

At work some mechanics made air guns with 10 mm pipes that they connected to the 7 bar system shooting M8 nuts to try and kill them !
Totally lethal for everybody except the mice..

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

This should become a Psychology Epiphany to what is essential for YOUR life and WHO do you want to provide it to you.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

You may recall that in 2015, the Aliso canyon underground gas reservoir leaked out due to failed outlet valve or its piping, and it could not be repaired until the reservoir was emptied. It shut down natural gas power plants in california for months . The same failure mode might cause the entire eastern half of the USA to lose natural gas ( heating and elect production) if the underground gas storage resrervoir in pennsylvania had the same type of valve leak. The Texas 4 day storm could be worse by a factor of 50 in terms of people and time period if such a gas reservoir failure occured in winter in pennsylvania. It is surprising how vulnerable our systems are and how dependent modern life is on the assumed availabliity of gas and electricity. There is more to the risks than just insulation on a pressure transmitter tubing.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Electricpete.

That scenario of frozen injection pumps sounds credible to me for a particular field - other fields may hav other ways of doing it.

The point to know is that the gas often requires this injection of "anti freeze" in conditions well above freezing depending on the pressure, temperature and water content of the gas coming out of the well.

Natural gas powered equipment is kind of frowned on in many places now as the gas is just vented to atmosphere.

The other complication is that the gas is often let down in pressure to work at 7 bar or so on the pumps and valves. Even if free water has been removed from this power gas, the lowering of the pressure drops the temperature of the gas and can drop out water. Normally this is not an issue, but when it gets super cold, it becomes one.

It's no different to everything else on this thread about winterisation and standby systems. They all cost money and is it worth it for the odd day in 500 when you need something really robust?

ERCOT clearly think it isn't and neither do the gas producers, but having seen prices rise so dramatically, maybe some people will gamble on it before the next big freeze storm....

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I doubt they will gamble on it, as they have not since the last event. Don't wish for too much.
Likely some regulation will be required, but we may not get that. Likely more finger pointing, and toung wagging. And even some fines, but don't expect much action.

Nothing wrong with understanding how steam or any other kind of turbines work, just as long as we electricals don't touch them. They get quite hot for a process that is intended to be without the loss of heat.

Fuel storage should be an issue that needs to be an issue at many utilities, as with the replacement of coal units, the storage of fuel is being forgotten.



RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

If we're discussing fixing / preventing ice build up in gas , or compressed air lines, think Tanner Gas and their installation systems. THis is NOT rocket science

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (THis is NOT rocket science)


We deal with worse conditions for several months during the winter season, and there are no issues with being able to accommodate it.

The problem clearly falls into the arms of the supplier. My definition for negligence is, "Negligence arises when one person owes to another a duty of care and breaches that duty, and reasonably foreseeable harm arises as a result of that breach." Their actions clearly fall into that category.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Perhaps some gas suppliers could afford to winterize, if they look at their cost of lost sales when the gathering system is frozen, plus the possibility of selling it at a higher spot price (price gouging) during extreme winter events.

Speaking thereof, aren't there laws against that?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

LittleInch,

Ercot didn't have anything to do with this mess other than trying to manage it. The PUC and the Railroad Commission has authority over the electrical system and the natural gas pipelines. ERCOT manages the electrical systems but doesn't have any real power to force anything.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Ercot didn't have anything to do with this mess other than trying to manage it.)


Through mismanagement, they created it. The people have no control over the circumstances and rely on those 'experts' to look after things.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Dik,

ERCOT doesn't have authority. They put together programs to help promote best winterization practices but they can't mandate or enforce something like that. They are easy to blame because they run the grid but they don't have ultimate authority. If they were designing table top exercises and educating plants who were interested in winterizing on best practices, you can be pretty sure that the topic and FERC's 2011 report were brought to the attention of the PUC and the Railroad Commission. ERCOT released several warning concerning potential problems with cold weather over the last two years and last November released a warning that they expected this winter to be an unusually cold and could be very problematic.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Serving on the Railroad Commission is one of the biggest political prizes in the state. It's an elected position where 2nd rate politicians go to either try and move-up the ranks, or to just sit back and gain influence which can be 'cashed-in' when the time is right.

One of the ironies is that despite its name, the 'Railroad' Commission has had nothing to do with railroads for nearly 20 years.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

ERCOT has no power plants of their own. Power plant owners build whatever they want. Their clients have little say about that, if any. If the people need something different than what is built, law and regulations will obviously need to be enacted, but were not, or were inadequate. Current regulations require that utilities' winterization efforts be reported to PUC, but do not require that any winterization equipment be installed. The buck stops in the big pink granite building in Austin.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Fischstabchen)

ERCOT doesn't have authority.

Well in that case the agreements between ERCOT and the power suppliers are poorly written.
If a power company would like to join Svenska Kraftnät which has balancing control here, they are required by law to provide for all there costumers.
And specific extra capacity on stand by is also bough this has a fixed price for just standing by and is paid at market price when used.
If a power supplier can not deliver according to the agreement to there costumer, SKN buys from someone else, and the power company that could not deliver has to pay for it.
With such agreements, there would be more incentive to maintain their facilities properly since they have to pay someone els to deliver the power for them when it doesn't work and also extra to SKN for their extra work.
When the rebought extra power is used it is also bought by spot price but after the last call of the day so it doesn't increases the price on the market.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

BUT . . .
wasn't the reason to de regulate was so that generation, transmittion, and distrubution are seperate.

so the "customer" can get the LOWEST price service possible.

If a generation enity had a relaible, (previuosly) well maintain generator, they are not viable to bid on the "fair weather" sales. Bid, being the process of daily informing the distrubution what your cost to provide power that DAY. Bid too high and the plant just sits (and rust)

while the masses got what they paid for, unfurtnately everybody suffers

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I do not know exactly how the Texas Power distribution market is constructed.

Here SWE. we have three different actors.
Main grid owner (Svenska Kraftnät) Balancing organ.
Local grid owner (who you are connected to). (You pay a fixed cost and some for transmission)
Power supplier you buy from.
If your PS cant deliver to you, you will stil get your power, and you stil pay the same price, fixed or mixed or spot.
The spot price can increase if there is high demand.
But if there is shortage the balancing company buys or use the power reserv, the SP has to pay for it since he could not deliver, but it does not increase the market price much or your bill.

There are 151 power supplier you can buy from here.

Best regards A





“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (ERCOT doesn't have authority. They put together programs to help promote best winterization practices but they can't mandate or enforce something like that.)


I disagree... Being in charge, they do... when I walk into a highrise I have a reasonable expectation that it won't come down on my ears... I don't know why it doesn't, but those responsible for it do. There's no way to whitewash this negligence.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Redsnake - one difference between what you are expecting (and what exists in the eastern and western interconnects in the US is that Texas, by an odd quirk of the federal constitutions is not subject to the federal law that invokes the reliability requirements on the grid operators, generators, transmission, and distribution companies. The first iteration of this Law followed the blackout of 1965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_o..., and was refined over the following years, and is still evolving now mostly as Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) and North American Electric Reliability Corporation (NERC) rules.

The state of Texas could create it's own Law to require reliability, but has chosen not to. More importantly ERCOT is not permitted to impose any reliability rules on the grid operators, generators, transmission, and distribution companies. The Gas Suppliers are completely out of ERCOT's realm of authority.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

FacEngPE,

Can you explain what you are talking about because the TRE oversees NERC compliance inside of the Texas Interconnect and all the orgs that I have worked for or did work for worked to be just as compliant as orgs in SPP and MISO? I would like to know if I am missing the boat but I am getting a feeling that everyone just thinks Texas does whatever.

https://www.texasre.org/standards

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

It starts...

"A Texas woman has filed a proposed US$1 billion class-action lawsuit against electric company Griddy Energy that alleges the company engaged in unlawful price gouging during last week's statewide winter storm and power outages, according to a statement from the law firm.

Lisa Khoury, a resident of a Houston suburb, claims she was charged a total of US$9,546 by Griddy from Feb. 1 to Feb. 19, according to a copy of her bill filed with the lawsuit."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

If it 's true I hope they ransack that company. This has happened numerous times.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I suspect the whole system has been legalised in such a manner that there is no liability for anyone involved.

I also suspect the woman will fail because of griddy charging the spot price rate. If they had added anything onto the spot price then they would have problems but if they just put through the market spot rate as per the contract with the consumer then they are in the clear.

To be honest none of the energy consumer billing company's will have any assets anyway so even if it does succeed then the company goes bankrupt and disappears.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

AH... That's a neat thing about litigation... it doesn't even have to be illegal... and it is decided by a jury, not a judge (if memory serves).

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I think there is something in the price gouging laws that apply here. Its illegal in 36 states, including TX. The hardware store and gas station can't raise prices on plywood and gasoline during emergencies, such as hurricans. Why should power generators be allowed to? What's the difference between gas stations, power generators, natgas distributors and hardware stores in that respect?

TX Office of the Attorney General

Quote:

In Houston, as millions suffered power and water outages, food shortages and subfreezing temperatures, another problem confronted families: price hikes.

Steep increases in the price of food, gas and fuel have been reported across Texas. And as millions of Texans lost power, exorbitant prices were being asked for hotel rooms with power, with some climbing to $1,000 a night.

It follows a pattern: Disaster creates a scarcity of basic necessities; retailers and providers respond by sharply raising the price tags on sought-after commodities. Then comes public outrage and claims of price gouging — a practice deemed illegal in 36 U.S. states, including Texas, in times of disaster.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/...

I think there is something in the price gouging laws that apply here. Its illegal in 36 states, including TX. The hardware store and gas station can't raise prices on plywood and gasoline during emergencies, such as hurricans. Why should power generators be allowed to? What's the difference between gas stations, power generators, natgas distributors and hardware stores in that respect?

TX Office of the Attorney General

Quote:

In Houston, as millions suffered power and water outages, food shortages and subfreezing temperatures, another problem confronted families: price hikes.

Steep increases in the price of food, gas and fuel have been reported across Texas. And as millions of Texans lost power, exorbitant prices were being asked for hotel rooms with power, with some climbing to $1,000 a night.

It follows a pattern: Disaster creates a scarcity of basic necessities; retailers and providers respond by sharply raising the price tags on sought-after commodities. Then comes public outrage and claims of price gouging — a practice deemed illegal in 36 U.S. states, including Texas, in times of disaster.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/...

This is not the stock exchange, or bitcoin free markets. The equivalent situation here cannot be permitted, ie. "Buy Bitcoin, or freeze in the dark". It can't be "buy my mafia insurance policy, or I give you one to the head". During 9/11, they closed the stock market for days, so investors would not lose money from an anticipated crash. Obviously they can't intentionally turn off power, but they could have easily closed the free power market and simply held the Sunday night price for the entire week. What actually was responsible for increasing prices? Nothing but unbalanced supply-demand curves. Did it really cost the power gens more money during those days to produce electricity? Well maybe, if they were experiencing natgas price hikes, but I didnt hear anything about the price of uranium hitting the roof. Did somebody raise the price of wind? If they DID get natgas price hikes, then let's cap the gas market at Sunday night prices too!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I am a bit cynical. I reckon that some entity with no assets in the middle who can least afford lawyers will end up getting targeted and will be held responsible...

Doesn't matter what you hit them with they will just go bankrupt and walk away and the consumers will have to pay for the mess.

All the real capital involved will be protected away owned by other entity's. The only liable entity's will only have rented offices and some IT gear as assets as well as their client books.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

From 2019 ERCOT and Texas RE Generator Weatherization Workshop.
14) Generator Owners and Operators conducting readiness drills on extreme weather preparation.
https://www.texasre.org/documents/reliability%20se...

Cant find the 2020 maybe it was not done due to Corona.
There seems to have been new rules in May 2020 too.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

And here is some rules for emergency and frequency response
But it's seems that when generator operatives does not comply there is case by case counterclaims from ERCOT.

I have of course not read all thousands of pages an papers so there might be other rules too.

Enforcment
https://www.texasre.org/enforcement

BAL-001-TRE-2 — Primary Frequency Response in the ERCOT Region
https://www.texasre.org/Documents/Standards/BAL-00...

EOP-011-1 Emergency Operations.
https://www.nerc.com/_layouts/15/PrintStandard.asp...

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

It really does not matter what the documents say now.
Winterization policies obviously were not undertaken as required by them. Why?
Policy was not enforced for one reason or another, or
adequate policies did not exist, or
ERCOT has no real power (pun intended), or
ERCOT has no enforcement power whatsoever.
Looks like some blunders will require fixing.

ERCOT is responsible for capping the electric power market and they acted too late.
They should have capped it Sunday night.
Why even have a market cap 100 X average price?
It is not Bitcoin we are talking about.

I think the ugly truth has finally come to light and nobody is going to admit it.
The free market does not always work as it should.
Free markets work "fairly" when supply and demand forces are not excessively unbalanced.
They hurt investors when supplies are great and hurts consumers when supplies are scarce.
Speculators and hedge funds sometimes get caught on the wrong side of swings, but they supposedly know the risks and have a choice to participate, or not. Nobody gets hurt when supply price meets demand price and both investors and consumers meet and both walk away happy with their transaction. When market forces make "happy ending" transactions impossible, something must happen to control supply, demand, or in extreme emergencies, price. At least when they reach deadly proportions. Free markets are not the answer to everything.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

1503-44
Well I agree.

At least here it is to high a cost to pay for the the state and society when this things happens, so that's why there are laws and regulations to prevent it.
I mean one weeks power outage would cost Sweden 9.7 billion EUR in BPM loss, probable more.
So for a land and or a state there should be great incentives to prevent this kind of thing.

Well I guess the easies way for them to fix this if they do not want put harder demands and rules and the same counterclaim on there generator suppliers, is to make a deal for the power reserv with NERC.
To be used in this circumstances.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I suspect they have things set up so it doesn't cost the state anything or any of the business entity's.

There will be loop holes put in place which have been lobbied for years ago to ensure that the only people that will pay will be the little people at the very end of the wire or gas pipe.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I will put it like this, I hope you are wrong winky smile

But I can see that we that live in a climate where things get out of hand pretty quickly if we can't trust in things working as they should have more incensement to be long sited then people living closer to the ekvator.
As they say in the Karibiens "Island mentality" get what you need for the day and then use the rest of the day to do what you feel like.

If you're cynical, people would probably call me a pessimist, because all I see is problems.
But you can not change what you do not recognize or see, which is really the end goal if you want things to work.
And I think it's possible to solve all problems, so I'm not really a pessimist at all.
I stil want to have hope for something better. smile

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote:

During 9/11, they closed the stock market for days, so investors would not lose money from an anticipated crash. Obviously they can't intentionally turn off power, but they could have easily closed the free power market and simply held the Sunday night price for the entire week. What actually was responsible for increasing prices? Nothing but unbalanced supply-demand curves.

During 9/11 the markets were closed bc Wall St was spitting distance from the epicenter of a terrorist attack causing major damage to infrastructure, a healthy portion of the area was evacuated for public safety. I don't watch much television much less the news, but last I knew the rate increases and most of the power outages was directly attributable to the EPA setting ridiculous minimum power rates for producers that violated emission limits to compensate for high demand. Some increased capacity and raised rates, others didn't and caused brownouts. Another govt fail, nothing to do with private business.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

1503-44,

There were no winterization mandates. No one was required anything but some plants did it on their own initiative.

Caps are in place to prevent market manipulation after what Enron did in California. Texas has caps. A lot of other states do,too. The caps have to be high so that companies who build peaker generation can recover their investment. Peaker generation has very few runtime hours each year and needs high prices. As is right now, it is hard to get companies to build peaker generation with a cap at $9,000 MWH. The capacity issues inside of ERCOT are in part due to the caps not being higher.

Dik,

She was on a variable rate and was very likely told this. The flipside is that I pay a fixed rate and had the thermostat at 80 F on my spare house so the pipes wouldn't freeze during the blackouts. I was still paying $0.10 per kwh for electricity that was worth $9.00 per kwh on the market. It works both ways.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

CWB1
I dont think a little news once in awhile would hurt you. Anyway, sorry to be blunt, but I'll be blunt. Nothing you wrote there makes any sense to me. EPA is not involved. Even less than normal during the last four years. Chicago Mercantile is a bit farther than spitting distance from NYC. Even EU foreign exchanges in Frankfurt and London kicked in with emergency measures to support the USD. Proximity to ground zero had nothing to do with anything.

My understanding (I could be mistaken about this), is that emissions criteria was waived to allow every last kWh to be squeezed out.

Fish,
Some plants did winterization, many others DID NOT.

Trading Markets.
Wall Street sets CAPS EVERY DAY! Since 1988.
If they hit the markers, trade is suspended with 7%, 13% and 20% breakers.
WALL STREET'S CAPS ARE NOT +10,000%
$0.09 to $9.00 is TEN TNOUSAND PERCENT !!!

Quote:

At the start of each day, the NYSE sets three circuit breaker levels at levels of 7% (Level 1), 13% (Level 2) and 20% (Level 3). These thresholds are the percentage drops in value that the S&P 500 Index would have to suffer in order for a trading halt to occur. Base price levels for which these thresholds will be applied are calculated daily based on the preceding trading day's closing value of the S&P 500. Depending on the point drop that happens and the time of day when it happens, different actions occur automatically: Level 1 and Level 2 declines result in a 15-minute trading halt unless they occur after 3:25pm, when no trading halts apply. A Level 3 decline results in trading being suspended for the remainder of the day.[2]

Circuit breakers are also in effect on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME) and all subsidiary exchanges where the same thresholds that the NYSE has are applied to equity index futures trading. However, there is a CME specific price limit that prevents 5% increases and decreases in price during after hours trading.[3] Base prices for which the percentage thresholds are applied are derived from the weighted average price on the future during the preceding trading day's last thirty seconds of trading. Price limits for equity index and foreign exchange futures are posted on the CME website at the close of each trading session.[4]

You say no companies will build for $9.00/ kWh. Sorry, but that's just plain rubbish. They fall all over themselves salvating at $0.40/ kWh. Building only with thoughts of proffiting at 10,000 percent normal price is just nuts. If that is their intent, we don't need them or their power. Everyone will be off the grid in seconds.

Your electricity was worth what you were paying for it. 0.10/kWh, so says your contract. You are not involved in any way whatsoever with the free electric market. You opted out.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
But he didn't the cost will be passed on at a future date.... What ever happens only the consumer will be out of pocket.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

1503-44,

It isn't just $9.00 kwh but amount of time that they actually run. Most of the time, peaker units are just sitting idle.

My electricity is part of the market the rate is adjusted to take volatility into account. My retailer lost out on the opportunity to sell into the market at $9,000 mwh to meet residential contracts of me and people like me. During the price spike, retailers who offered variable plans tried to get people to switch over to fixed contracts with someone else to avoid running up a huge bill. No one though offering fixed rates was accepting new customers during the spike which would either reduce the amount of power they sold into the market or if they had no generation, force them to buy electricity at market rates.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
your retailer doesn't produce power it only hedges it off the power market. Hopefully keeping enough in the bank to cover any spikes.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

CWB1: Don't feel bad...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Can Alistair change the title from “Windfarms getting iced up” to “Texas fracked up”?

Also, a good image of supply relative to projected demand during all of this:

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Spartan... that's frack with a 'u'? I would assume...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Your retailer made his price and his fair profit. He's only sorry he's in the power business and that he didn't buy any Bitcoins instead, like most of the rest of us.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (1503-44)

My understanding (I could be mistaken about this), is that emissions criteria was waived to allow every last kWh to be squeezed out.

As I understand it, the Biden administration's EPA refused to waive existing NOX emission restrictions, which would have permitted the CT's to "overrev" (go hotter than optimum for NOX emission levels) and so produce many percent points higher power. 200 Meg CT being able to generate 225, for example, maybe 230. The higher gas turbine outlet temperatures then create higher combined cycle steam pressures and temperatures with no increase in fuel flow. That change in exhaust gas temperature will also generate more power from the steam turbine side of the power plants.

But losing gas line pressure shuts the CT down. And no electric power shuts the house gas heating down because of no fan power.

BUT! Mid and South Texas - the regions most affected ARE NOT WINTER CLIMATES. I grew up there (San Antonio, Houston, Bastrop, Austin, Medina and Medina Valley, the Hill Country.) Spring through late fall require air conditioning now, required fans and open windows back then. High electric bills are the killer down in that region, because high electric bills are a every-day trouble for 9 months every year.
Heat protection in that region and heat-tracing wires and steam/water sensing line protection against a once-in-a-hundred-year freezing event is required, well, frankly, once in every hundred years.
North Texas? Already heat-traced.
The Valley and far south Texas? Didn't need it. Doesn't need it any more than Hawaii needs it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Fischstabchen
Perhaps i get some of the details wrong, but the effective result is that the way the entire system Generation, Transmission, Market, reliability, and so on works in Texas is different from the way it works elsewhere in the US. And of course Europe.

A search of FERC's site for documents related to texasRE indicates some audit activity, but the documents are sufficiently redacted that it is not possible to understand either findings or actions taken. I guess that is all ruled proprietary.

I am not saying that the Texas system is better or worse than elsewhere. I pay more for power than Texans do. I think I get good value for my utility bill. Others come to a different conclusion. If enough Texans want the rules in Texas to favor lower peak prices, and higher reliability, they can have Texas's market rules changed to value those factors over the lowest possible rates.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

My old man, chief metalurgist at Cameron Iron Works, used to say he could make a titanium blow out preventor, but nobody could afford to buy it.

The question now becomes, is it worth it to extend the capability of the system to cover these events. Are these events more frequent or more severe than before? How many people and businesses are being affected and how badly? Will it change the definition of the region's design storm event scale. And if there will be building code changes as a result. I believe Katrina forced some rethinking of the definition of the 100yr wave in the Gulf of Mexico, the height of storm surges and flood risk along the coast. Not sure if design wind loads changed or not.

The cost to the TX economy from Winter of Feb 2021 is already being estimated to be more than the $20 B of Katrina. That amounted to $700 PP (pop TX).

Spartans, thanks for confirming the emissions question.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

FacEngPE,

I don't think you are grasping how much of the electrical system is deregulated in the U.S. More people in the U.S. live in deregulated markets than regulated markets. The Texas Interconnect follows NERC rules and operates mostly with a few exceptions around San Antonio and Austin with deregulated markets.
If you asked me what make the Texas Interconnect different, the only thing I could tell you is that it is a an interconnect created by and for a state. I don't particularly think this is a good thing from a reliability point of view but it is a interconnect with about 76 GW of load. It has day ahead markets and nodal pricing just like MISO. I am failing to see what is so radically different. Nobody really says what is different and it starts feeling like a phantom reason. In fact, if you were to ask me what region is much different than any other it would be PJM in the eastern interconnect. They are ,in my opinion at least, the most proactive ISO. Much of what gets adopted by other ISOs started in PJm.

Map of states with deregulated electrical markets
https://www.electricchoice.com/map-deregulated-ene...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

What is different is that it is HUGE.
TWICE the capacity of #2 California.
Who's really capable of backing it up?
Its 1500 km Austin to Hoover Dam and 1200km to TVA territory.
Distance from and capacity of other significant potential resources is undoubtedly the greatest factor in why it is independent.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Europe has been deregulated for over 20 years 1990's its started coming in. UK was one of the first to put it through for electricity and 5 years later for gas, which is linked to the conversations about the initial sales techniques and how the Brits are a bit more street wise to the sales ploy's than some other countries. But those of us that are wise to them are in the minority.

And I was right 28th of Feb the emails arrived today in Estonia to try a persuade me to go spot price. But I have already signed a contract for this year. 1.2 cents lower than the latest fixed price contract, but 1.5 cents higher that the average spot rate for the year but cheaper than Nov-Feb average Which is when I mainly pull from the grid.

I don't have a clue how they deal with spinning reserves in Europe and passing the price onto consumers. I think its included in the grid charges which make up 55% of the price of a kWh consumed where I am. There is discounts on that with peak and off peak usage but its constant all year round which is yet another contract. There is another contract as well which I really don't understand what its for or how the price is calculated but as its only a couple of euro a month and you can't get out of it I haven't bothered digging deeper.


The more I read about ripple receivers and selective load shedding by the grid the more I see its pretty much inevitable requirement. I certainly would not have a problem with all the lights and the TV going off but the heatpump staying on with a set temp of 10 deg C plus the water pump for the well. It takes my place 3 days to go from 20 deg's down to 10 deg's when its -20 outside.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

This is how the bill for connecting to the grid is calculated in Sweden.
How much different it is in the Baltics or in the rest of Scandinavia I do not know but since they all a part of Nord Pool and much is regulated with EU directives, I think it might bee quit the same.

The transmission network tariff consists of two fees
The transmission network tariff is central to the financing of Svenska kraftnät's operations and payment of customers who use the transmission network. The transmission network tariff consists of two parts:

1.The power fee shall cover operation, maintenance, depreciation and capital costs for the transmission network. The fee is based on the customer's subscribed effects for input and output at each connection point.

2. The energy charge shall cover costs for the transmission losses on the transmission network, which are caused by input and output in the individual connection points. Each input and output point has its own fee based on geographical location in the network.

If the customer's input or withdrawal increases the transmission losses in the network, the energy fee must be paid. In cases where the customer's input or withdrawal results in reduced grid losses, Svenska kraftnät instead pays out so-called energy compensation


The last part is actually how it works sometimes I get reduction on my bill if last bill was to high I din't use as much power as expected.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

And this is how the Frequency Containment Reserve (FCR) is bought and what they are investigating right now.

At present, the bids for FCR are cost-based and payment is made on the basis of each bid, so-called "pay-as-bid".
A change in the market design that has been discussed is a transition to free pricing and marginal pricing, so-called "pay-as-cleared".
The FCR market today is characterized by a high market concentration, with which there are increased risks of strategic bidding and significant increases in constancy, which in the long run would affect electricity customers.

Against this background, Svenska kraftnät has carried out an R&D project in which the Austrian Institute of Technology (AIT) has analyzed how a transition to marginal pricing and free bidding can affect the market for FCR-N.
The project was implemented in the autumn of 2020 based on three main issues:

1. What effect does a change from cost-based to free bidding have?
2. How is the market affected by a transition from pay-as-bid to marginal pricing?
3. What effect can new market players and different degrees of competition on the FCR-N market have during a new market design?

The analysis shows that a change from cost-based to free bidding can increase costs even if only one player acts strategically.
With only market participants today, bids would deviate from true alternative costs during 80% of the time during pay-as-bid or more than 60% of the time if marginal pricing is used.
However, this effect can be counteracted with new market players and increased competition, partly by new bids crowding out more expensive bids and partly by the bidding of existing players being affected by increased competition.


Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Seems there is a 2.1 billion hole in payments after the event which is 17%.

Now the cynic in me suspects that debt has already been passed onto related parties and will be extracted out of the small people in full.

The energy retailers will do a phoenix to reappear at a later date.

I suspect some of the gas and energy suppliers might be glad they shut down and are out of the mess.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (1503-44)

What is different is that it is HUGE.
TWICE the capacity of #2 California.
Who's really capable of backing it up?
Its 1500 km Austin to Hoover Dam and 1200km to TVA territory.
Distance from and capacity of other significant potential resources is undoubtedly the greatest factor in why it is independent.

Twice that capacity of California which has 40% more people to supply than Texas.

I take it there’s not much in the way of efficiency standards or conservation programs down there.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Spartan5,

The gulf coast along Texas and Louisiana is the industrial center fo the U.S. That is why its load is disproportionate to its population. You literally have miles of refineries and chemical plants. There isn't any place in the U.S. and I suspect possibly the world that is as dense with industry. It is pretty eye opening the first time you see it. The electrical grid in the Houston area itself is pretty odd for a metro due to how much load it has for its area and population. It is very strong and compact for the load it serves.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote:

[Texas has]Twice that capacity of California which has 40% more people to supply than Texas]
Wow. I live here and I didn't realize that, although I agree with Fischstabchen the miles and miles of refinery related industry at certain points along the coast are hard to miss.

I was impressed with the reported scale of power usage at the LNG export project in Freeport TX about 15 miles from my home:

Quote:

...sizable new load from the LNG export facility expected to start service in 2018.

The 656MW increase in power demand from the facility is the equivalent of the projected load growth for all of New England in the next three years. The projected load equals the consumption of 328,000 new Texas homes during mild weather.



=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I understand there is tremendous industrial demand. But do all of those processes take priority over human lives? Would declaring a state of emergency had helped with the problem?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Yes, Griddy was one those 'power companies' that was responsible for those outrageously high electric bills that were reported in the news the last couple of weeks during the Texas power crisis.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

It is a stretch to say that Griddy was responsible for outrageous electrical bills. People signed on for normally low ,extremely low, variable rates and Griddy kept their agreement. Their only fault was in my opinion not covering their ass if they had a bunch of customers not pay up. I would have strong hesitations offering variable rates without coverage or taking on customers that knew if they delayed payment for three days I would have to dissolve my business.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

That market is a scam. 10,000 percent cap. Yes ten thousand percent. NYSE is 20%

Nat gas price (Henry Hub) $/MMBTU

Mon Tues Wed Thu Fri
2021 Feb- 1 to Feb- 5 2.88 3.24 3.01 2.99 3.49
2021 Feb- 8 to Feb-12 3.40 3.35 3.76 6.50 6.12
2021 Feb-15 to Feb-19 xx 11.32 23.86 8.56 4.96
2021 Feb-22 to Feb-26 3.16

Price gouging in times of emergencies is illegal.
Highest gas price was 300% over start of month. Nowhere near 10,000%
NYMEX Gas market seems to have breakers at 40% triggering 15m pause.
It seems that is much doubt in the investors community as to the usefulness of market price circuit breakers with such wide triggers. They may be in place only to avoid close SEC scrutiny and more restrictive regulation, rather than to actually stop wide price swings of commodaties.


Who raised the price of wind fuel?
Who raised the price of solar fuel?
Who raised the price of uranium?

Germany
The Rhine River Valley is also very heavily industrialised, but max load on Germany's grid is 80 GW, only slightly more than TX.

LNG
It takes a lot of power to decrease natgas' volume by 600 times to liquefy it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

1503-44,

The electrical energy use in Texas is more than German if it is 80 GW. Texas ,the state, is part of MISO, ERCOT, and SPP. Houston city council is talking about wanting to join MISO. I would be surprised if that goes anywhere.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
German production capacity is in the region of 220 GW. UK 55 GW and due to loose 13 GW by 2025...

To be honest 10000 domestic customers is chicken feed compared to the industrial users who will also likely be on spot rates even if they each get a bill for 10k each. There are bigger issues to do with the price which have yet to surface.

The industrial user demand will have been the driver for the price increase. And we will have to see what the fall out of that is. Yes they will have cash reserves but not enough to cover a 9000% increase in variable costs of a major resource.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Allistair,

All the plants went into a control shutdown before the cold snap. An uncontrolled interruption of a lot of these processes is dangerous. The system load would have been way heavier residential than normal. Exxon though did fire up its cogen just to get $9000 per MWH.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Fischstabchen)


Exxon though did fire up its cogen just to get $9000 per MWH.

Of course they did...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I am extremely doubtful they did go into shut down unless forced. The ones that had mission critical systems will have had a last customer clause in their contracts so they will be the last lights out after the onsite generators run out of fuel. It takes a few days to shut down without thermal gradients killing your equipment. And they wouldn't be back up yet they would be sorting all the snags out and warming things up again.

From memory a planned shut down of a refinery takes over a week 18 hours to get the flare stack warmed up and producing steam and days of venting, And bring it back up 9 days but usually takes 2 weeks to sort all the stuff that goes in a sulk.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Don't you think that ExxonMobil fired up so that they could avoid curtailment by the grid, or even more likely, to use their own power, rather than pay 9000 kWh?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The irony is high on this one, and for extra spice it was issued Feb 10.

"On Wednesday, the Texas Section of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) released preliminary findings – including grades – from its 2021 Texas Infrastructure Report Card, the Section’s first report card since 2017. Texas civil engineers gave 12 categories of infrastructure an overall grade of “C”, an upgrade from its 2017 grade of “C-.” Graded categories included aviation (C), bridges (B+), canals (D+), dams (C+), drinking water (happy shades, hazardous waste (C+), levees (D-), roads (B+), solid waste (happy shades, stormwater (C+), transit (B+) and wastewater (C). The full report will be released in late February 2021.

Speakers for the event included Jean-Louis Briaud, Ph.D., P.E., President, American Society of Civil Engineers; Griselda Gonzales, P.E., ENV, Vice President, Professional Affairs, ASCE Texas Section; Sean Merrell, P.E., PTOE, RAS, President, ASCE Texas Section; and Mark Boyd, Ph.D., P.E., Chair, Infrastructure Report Card Committee, ASCE Texas Section.

Energy infrastructure received the highest grade of a ‘B+,’ "....

Grade inflation?

https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/texas-civ...

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

1503-44,

They were creating power but not running their process. My wife said there was some memo they put out about how many houses they were supply power during the event. I don't think a plant would ever be curtailed under any circumstances.

Alistair,

They bring their process to a stopping point and that is why they were all flaring. The way you describe it, it can't be cold but it is stopped.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I would not tend to put a lot of faith in civil engineer's collective in-depth knowledge of the energy infrastructure. If there are any civil engineers here that would like to disagree, please feel free to object.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Stopping the process does drop the power consumption but its a gradual drop off over a period. But I suspect they went for a minimum process power drop.

I will leave the oilies on the thread to describe the shutdown process. I have only ever seen it a couple of times as a bystander one scheduled and one emergency . The emergency one had a load of extremely worried people running around for days, All the catalysts were screwed and a large quantity of valves gave up that job description. And it confirmed my decision that I didn't want to get involved with petrochemical.

I believe if the normal high stacks are flaring there isn't much untoward going on... If the ground flares go and the water pipes open up to the flare stacks its time to leave it to the experts and get the hell away from the plant until someone calls you.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Some conflicting statistical info here; 2 x as much as Florida as #2

EIA
TX
Texas is the top U.S. producer of both crude oil and natural gas. In 2019, the state accounted for 41% of the nation's crude oil production and 25% of its marketed natural gas production.
As of January 2019, the 30 petroleum refineries in Texas were able to process about 5.8 million barrels of crude oil per day and accounted for 31% of the nation's refining capacity.
Texas leads the nation in wind-powered generation and produced about 28% of all the U.S. wind-powered electricity in 2019. Texas wind turbines have produced more electricity than both of the state's nuclear power plants since 2014.
Texas produces more electricity than any other state, generating almost twice as much as Florida, the second-highest electricity-producing state.
Texas is the largest energy-producing and energy-consuming state in the nation. The industrial sector, including its refineries and petrochemical plants, accounts for half of the energy consumed in the state.

RE-Comparing with Germany
Wikipedia says all TX gen types total 83.3 GW

German Capacity is given as 209 GW here,
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germany...
Texas is still a sizable powerhouse, coming in at almost half that of Germany.

AND
Guess what. Computer error gets the blame in TX hearings!

Quote:

In this case, however, “the (computer) system that was running the processes at ERCOT related to generation were increasing the reserves so that they could balance the system and hopefully bring customers on," she said. But "because they had those reserves on there, it was reducing the price and it was backing down the generation."
https://www.statesman.com/story/business/2021/02/2...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)

Quote (me)

Alistair_Heaton (Mechanical)(OP)18 Feb 21 12:37
The initial blame it on the renewables is pretty much out the window now... Which is where I picked it up....

I am sure they will blame it on IT and a computer bug eventually....

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

2
If you read the statesman article I think it is rubbish.

The "reducing the price" bit is that the poor generators were only being offered $1200/MWh instead of the max 9,000. So only 20 times the normal price instead of 100 times.

and that caused some of them to say they were not going to generate electricity? Yeh right.

The CEO of a generator said "“Honestly, I don't think it had really any bearing as to whether we were going to bring on and get as much generation at that point in time onto the grid," Morgan said."

I also find it difficult to believe that ERCOT don't have some sort of emergency override and can't call on all generators to deliver what they can and then they will sort out the money later.

Ultimately the market incentives to winterise the supply were not present and hence no one does it. Like BI said way above, the free market doesn't work in all (or many) situations without controls and artificial incentives. The blinkered approach to lowest unit price above all else has been seen to fail. I would suggest most other grid operators have a mechanism for either allowing hardening of their supplies against shocks to be paid for or paying for stand by generation aimed to avoid black outs.

Texas though may also be fairly unique in having a lot of its gas supply in state, so anything affecting the power generation such as extreme weather and shortage of electricity will impact the gas supply which then results in low gas supply which .... States or locations where gas supply is separate physically from the electricity generation wouldn't have this double impact that was seen in Texas.

So protecting the raw fuel supply also becomes an issue that the state needs to mandate.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

LittleInch,

It isn't that they wouldn't generate at $1,200 but it changes the rules that they fell back on when they built their peaker units. It is a struggle to get companies to build peaker generation with a cap of $9,000 per MWH. They need and planned on recovering their investimet during energy shortages.

Here is ERCOT's EEA process when there a shortage of capacity. I don't know the specifics of what is all done but this shows the steps of how load is reduced or shed and additional generation is released during a shortage event.

http://www.ercot.com/content/wcm/lists/190195/EEA_...

It isn't just Texas's problem because it produces 24% of the country's dry gas. (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=46&t...) There were rolling blackouts in Oklahoma and Louisiana as well. Natural gas was also clipped to Mexico and caused blackouts there as well. FERC is going to clean this up just due to how much of a national issue is created by losing a needed fuel source.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Ercot didn't like me so if you can attach it would be useful, but I take the point that there may have been unintended consequences to the grid banking some power before reconnecting parts of the grid they had turned off. In a grid emergency though I am surprised if they didn't have some sort of override and just generate everything you can.

That's why the other option is pay the base cost for the peaker units as part of the grid cost and then have a much smaller premium for the power they actually produce.

Currently in the UK there are recently dozens of small (<50MW) stations being built with a bunch of fast start gas engines who are paid enough to cover their fixed costs and generate less than 500 hrs/year.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
They hate me as well, security risk.

Those fast starts are a feature through most of Europe these days.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

You TERRORIST EUROPE guys need a USA VPN to access ERCOT.

Oklahoma did scheduled rolling blackouts. The power companies let everyone know when power would be cut and for exactly how long. Power was typically cut ONCE per customer, for exactly 1 hour and returned as scheduled.

LI, The article is not rubbish so much as the statements quoted within it are rubbish.

Quote:

It is a struggle to get companies to build peaker generation with a cap of $9,000 per MWH. They need and planned on recovery their investimet during energy shortages.

Gross Revenue
3.1% time price is 1.20/ kWh then 272 hr/yr x $1.20/kWh = $326/kW/yr
0.005% time price is 9.00/kWh then 44 hr/yr x $9.00/kWh = $396/kW/yr

Gross Payback Times
$1500/kW capacity / $326/kW/yr = 4.6 yrs
$1500/kW capacity / $396/kW/yr = 3.7 yrs

If my cost per kW capacity isn't too far off, not sure about that, those gross payback times don't look too bad at all, even at double the cost.
Cost of peaker generation $175/MWh, = $0.175/kWh
That's why I said above that those guys will drool all overthemselves for a chance to charge $0.40/kWh.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricit...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I tried the VPN trick with a server in Houston and they still didn't like me.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The whole article though starts by saying that the "IT glitch" or "low" price contributed to the blackout but then all the quotes say the opposite.

The more interesting quote was that they (Public Utility commission) manually set the price to the max level and left it there for a week "...with the commission's order possibly just resulting in higher wholesale electricity prices for those able to buy it."

Or for many people those contracted to buy it without warning of the price who now have a (v) large bill to pay.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (1503-44)

You TERRORIST EUROPE guys need a USA VPN to access ERCOT.
I am on a USA VPN tunnel does not help banghead
And I am not even a guy winky smile

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Same for you terrorist EU females! "Guys" in the US has the meaning of the collective of all humanity. Sorry if I offended you. Not intended. I could have said "ya'll", but that would have give away my TX ethnicity. Which do you prefer?

VPN
They must know it is a VPN commonly used by EU terrorists of all ya'll.

STATESMAN ARTICLE
Exactly. The article pretty much exposes that everyone is lying, because none of it makes sense..The RR commissioners are elected, meaning no competence required, other than knowing how to serve their energy mafia election contributors, the other guys in the room. RR and PUC can't point fingers that-a-way.

RUN COSTS
So I'm pretty sure, with those capital and running costs they don't need 9.00/kWh to make money.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

NordVPN allows me in... using an 'American' address... you need a VPN outside of Five Eyes jurisdiction at very minimum...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (but that would have give away my TX ethnicity.)


We'd already guessed... wasn't difficult...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Hmmm do I get offend if you call me a terrorist...... hmm lets see ...... hmm let me think ponder
No, I am a rebel at heart so that okey winky smile

When you have explained to some on the phone for the 5:th time that your name is Alfa, November, November, Alfa and they stil tries to call you Anton or Andre or something because you introduced your self as an electrician, you can't do much else then laugh at it. lol

So no prob. guy or female EU terrorist it's all fine smile
But ya'll is much funnier winky smile

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Yeah, all that blocking is strange. You wouldn't think the website that ERCOT uses to serve information to the public would be a vector for attack. But we live in a strange cyber world, who knows.

Different subject
A bailout for the Texas energy market? A domino effect after the winter storm and crazy high bills...

Quote (Houston tv station KHOU)

ERCOT owes Texas power plants $1.3 billion for the energy they supplied during the blackouts.

ERCOT said it’s still waiting for more than $2 billion in payments from retail providers.

Experts said that if ERCOT can't come up with the money, it may have to be bailed out by the state.



=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I think the FERC might take a stab at sorting that market out first. How can anyone justify raising rates at all, never mind by 10,000%, during a declared emergency. Back during the regulation era, utilities were allowed to charge not more than approved costs + 10% for their profit margin. That was outrageous at times, but nothing like this.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (That was outrageous at times, but nothing like this.)


Things are bigger in Texas... including price gouging...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Here is an article that states how each region's mitigations for market power manipulation. See page 32. I can't work back to the number but I have seen multiple articles state MISO's cap is around $3,500 per MWH.

http://deep.ucdavis.edu/uploads/5/6/8/7/56877229/d...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Certainly more reasonable, but I think still high. If running cost is prorated at half capital expense, half admin, maintenance, taxes and running expense, and half of that is natgas fuel ..(is that reasonable, or too much for Capex?) in TX highest gas price was $24, say usually $3, 25% of costs went x7. Say $0.175 is normal run cost, then I get a new run cost of almost $0.43/kWh, still way way less than $3.50/kWh and that gas price didn't stay that high for more than a day.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
This state something and then contradict when there is a screw up seems to be pretty standard around where I am as well. And its pretty obvious even if you use google translate to read the local news.

We are getting a lot of it about covid and vaccination rollout at the moment. It seems to be used to generate the headline which is then displayed everywhere, depending on the political bent of the news agency they will rearrange the information flow to support their readership inclination.

It works the other way round as well. If something is a success they will headline with a criticism just because they hate the entity that is involved. I suppose the Guardian in the UK is the perfect example of this.

I suppose it works on the premise that most readers only read the headline and if your lucky the first paragraph. So if you put the facts after that it won't effect your political agenda but you can't be pulled for out right lies. Or its to maximise hit rate on the internet and advertising revenue.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Looking at the source of power in Texas, there are going to be some drastic changes to switch from carbon based to more environmentally friendly. It's going to come as a rude awakening...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
To be honest I think they are doing pretty good already in global stakes with alternatives to carbon power to be fair.

Its the big picture setup how all the different methods fit together which needs reworking. But as we learned in the 80's in Aberdeen changing a Texans method of working is like herding cats. They basically all cleared off after Piper Alpha.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

North Sea is too cold and no crawfish on Fridays.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
:D Everything was too cold..... As a kid get in there swimming ya big girls blouse.... freezing ya nuts off on Aberdeen beach holding out you could go to cordonas before you go home.

12 years later in the RGIT near death simulator. 7 mins in the North sea without a survival suit and your dead apart from you ya fatty, reckon you might have 10 mins. Confused Texan driller wondering WTF is going to happen never mind the causal insults and banter which is normal in Scotland. Then the wind blower starts up and the lights go out and the wave machine starts going....

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Dik,

About 25% of the electrical energy produced in Texas comes from renewables. If you take out hydro, which Texas doesn't have much of, Texas gets close to an equal share of its energy from renewables ss California. Texas is a very green state energy production-wise but that wouldn't fit your stereotype of Texas.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

You forgot ... Then the helicopter flips upside down.
Fortunately the effects of the high quality scotch of the previous night have been by then long forgotten.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Texas wind energy isn't a coincidence. Two visionary TX oilmen were instrumental in TX wind power development. They were talking about wind energy long before the rest of us ever new of it. Of course we thought they were total nut jobs back then, but now you just gotta' hand it to them.

George Mitchell The oilman who loved sustainable energy.

T. Boone Pickens Former Texas Oilman Pursues World's Largest Wind Farm

We can't get too carried away though. TX percentages of renewable as total capacity is behind too many others. As we've seen from above, getting that percentage higher will be a struggle with that huge base load. But as is a common occurrence of late, if they can export enough gas and NGL to EU, the local gas price will rise and renewables of all kinds will come into sharp focus, simply to avoid those higher gas fuel costs entirely. But by then the EU will be far ahead and cutting gas imports.


RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
The supply of the NG is behind all the political arguments about Nord stream2. For those that haven't heard about it https://www.nord-stream2.com

Its basically the only way in hell Germany can reduce its lignite consumption. Try and stay on renewables as much as it can but have the gas sitting on standby.

I am not so sure though of the wisdom of putting all your eggs in the one basket with the supplier though.

I suspect it will be completed though what ever sanctions are imposed. Bit like the aerospace sanctions Germany will just ignore them and France will bitch about them.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I am really PO at US sanctions on that pipeline. EU energy security is EU ONLY business. The US has no right to interfere. What the EU has now passes through Ukraine. Is that secure? Really. Ukraine can just as easily close the valve, if they don't get a big enough EU aid package. That one pipeline route is a huge vulnerability in EU energy security. IMO, two routes are better than one, full stop.

Some say, USA and some eastern EU members, those that want to keep Russia as far away as possible (on the other side of their border), dont want Nordstream II. Basically everyone else does want it. If Russia was to get coercive using the gas as a political weapon, EU would always have the choice to close the valve. But it should be EU's sole discretion. And this is the second NS pipeline. The first one has been in service for years now. Russia can easily coerce the EU all it wants to by simply shutting that pipeline down. Or any pipeline. There are oil pipelines coming from Russia too. The sanctions on NS II are a blatent attempt to keep EU dependent on US political whim as well and keep the EU gas market open, so they can be ready to start buying expensive NGL, made in USA. How secure are a chain of NGL carriers traversing the North Atlantic. Have not the dangers of submarines in the North Atlantic been known for 100 years?

Pull back the curtains on the ones sponsoring sanctioning bills in the US Senate. Who's there? Is it Ted? Is it John? Aren't they TX senators? Spoilers alert. Yes! If it was really a political global security question, they would be somebody else.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
This is purely opinion of a Brit that lives in the Baltics.... I hope this doesn't contravene the talking politics rules.

Things are not as transparent as they seem, I certainly didn't have a clue until I helped them out putting some Scottish quality into the local gene pool.

There is still colossal networks of shall we call players from the soviet times. They all speak Russian fluently they all think the same way and still play by the same rule book.

A lot of the German older politicians even if they were on the west side still know everyone on the east side. Putin Speaks fluent German, Merkel speaks fluent Russian.

So there is lots of mixing and plays which are perfectly normal to them which are utterly strange to those of us in the west of Europe. When the soviets pulled out they seeded all the populations with ethnically Russians. Very few want to live in Russia but the mind set lingers.

Now a lot of them see doing deals with Russia as no big problem its normal even if it goes wrong you may get your legs broken, if you hire a fancy lawyer to argue the toss they will get their legs broken and fingers. Its not as bad as it sounds to be honest if you keep out of it. They all seem to know the rules and stick to them. You might say what's that got to do with the pipeline.. There will be pay back if its cancelled more than likely worse than US sanctions.

Now the pipeline arguments are billed as a security issue, its only 50% of the picture. The rest is political over who gets the cash from the gas. Every m3 that comes out that pipeline is one m3 that's not shipped over the Atlantic. To be honest for a sizable number over here think being reliant on the USA for gas is worse than Russia.

And now thrown in the UK has left the EU and the southern fields in EU sectors are all coming to end of life and West of Shetland is opening up.

BTW my 5 year old speaks Russian and gets a free visa to cross the border to visit the family graves across the border and could get a Russian passport through his Grandmother if he wanted it.

I really don't pretend to understand it all. But its certainly not the way its portrayed in the English speaking media.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

You certainly will find no arguement with me there. My passport is still blue, but I've been seeing a clearer picture of way more than two sides of things to many and various issues since I exported myself in '85. The truth is always somewhere in the very wide middle range.

As for EU energy security, history shows that throughout the entire worst years of the Cold War, the oil pipelines from USSR never skipped a beat. USSR oil pipelines were more reliable than Big Ben. The previous US admin made it clear that the sentiments in the US can easily shift unpredictably every 2 to 4 years. That risk does not appear to have gone away and may intensify. All risks are minimized by maximising your options and distributing your risks as much as possible. For energy that translates to obtaining access to multiple energy sources, all you have available, closest to home and traversing safe routes. If there is only one chicken coup, don't let the fox in. Better that they fight each other for access. You will also get the best price when all are competing.

PS It is not politics. It is "energy security". Unfortunately the geopolitical powers well know the strategic value of controlling it. WWII prime objectives were every known vulnerable large oil field in the world within reach and all the refineries, storage depots, trains, trucks and ocean tankers moving it. I always think of the line from the movie "Patton". "They (Germans at the Battle of the Bulge).were carrying hoses.", realising they had to siphon fuel from captured American vehicles and that they had no gasoline of their own.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

For better or worse, the Biden admin has reversed many of the Trump admin's actions. Considering this Nord Stream 2 pipeline arguably helps Germany move away from coal and the Biden admin talks about an environmentally-conscious agenda, maybe these "sanctions" are something that will end up getting reversed.

=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I am afraid, and relatively certain that it will not be reversed. There is little political downside in the US to reversing it. Selling more gas abroad is just good for US business and balance of international payments, it create local jobs and a hell of a lot of tax revenue. Win-win and, if it turns sour, Dems can dodge the blame. I agree that it isn't a good way to treat allies, but they should be used to that my now.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Well Germany has just started building up for Dattln-4 getting fired up. I suspect there will be quite a bit of noise about that in June.

I doubt very much if Nordstream or for that matter all the nonsense over aviation subsides will be reversed. As with the aviation stuff with the aircraft in question not being produced any more with Nord stream the pipeline will be online and pumping huge quantities of gas.

And they will be left with no realistic face saving way of removing the sanctions that will not hit them hard both sides of the Atlantic with the electorate. Even though both will be doing pointless harm to both sets of electorate and change absolutely nothing.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (About 25% of the electrical energy produced in Texas comes from renewables.)


It's not enough... from the charts I've seen, a substantial part of their energy comes from 'unfriendly' sources. This will have to change substantially in the future.


Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I thought Vermont was still French? With a population density less than Alaska?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Dik,

You are being really disingenuous. Texas and the Gulf Coast region is the industrial center of the U.S.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Not at all... and it will have to change... for being the industrial centre... says something about the last freeze...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

For the record, the population density of Alaska is 1.3 individuals/square mile. Vermont is 68.0. And for comparison, since they were just mentioned, Texas is 101.2 and California is 246.1. And before anyone asks, New Jersey is the densest populated state at 1,210.1 (of course, if Washington DC ever became a state, it would be the densest at 10,588.8) and the least dense is the aforementioned Alaska. Note that these numbers are based on an estimate of the US population made in 2013.

For anyone interested in their state's numbers, here's the link to the site where I got my figures from:

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._sta...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Got the numbers right here, and I find it interesting to contine the comparison with Germany.
German population is 83MM, almost 3X that of TX at 29MM
Germany has 2.5 X the generator capacity, almost the same, but a little smaller, gen capacity per capita.

Nuclear capacity of Germany is almost 2X Texas. Consistant with relative sizes of the grids.
NatGas gen capacity is approx equal in both TX and Germany, but % of NatGas generators in TX is 4X German
TX seems overdependent on natgas, but given the size and proximity of the resource, anything else would be hard to do.
German solar capacity is far greater at 18X Tx and German % of the Solar in the mix is 6X Texas.
Texas would appear to be very underdeveloped in solar, esp given the substantial resource available.
Solar could make some inroads there.
Germany has over 2X coal capacity, but the two share the same % of mix
Germany has 3X the wind capacity, but the two share the same % of mix
There still appears to be room for more Tx wind generators.
Hydro of both is insignificant

Capacity GW
Type____TX___Germany
Nuclear___5______8
Coal_____18_____44
NatGas__35______29
Hydro____1_______5
Wind____21______62
Biomass__0_______8
Solar_____3______53
All_______83____209

Makeup of Mix %
Type____TX___Germany
Nuclear___6______4
Coal_____22_____21
NatGas__42_____14
Hydro____1______2
Wind____26_____30
Biomass__0______4
Solar_____4_____25


RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I think even if Bidens choice not to lift the sanctions of Nord Stream 2 pipeline is due to "climate".
It might have a lot to do with NATO too.
Sweden is neutral but we are against the pipe line.
It is mostly because Baltic Sea is a very environmentally sensitive inland sea.
But also because it gives the Russians an excuse, to in principle be inside Swedish territorial waters or at the edge at all times.
In Sweden, the enemy always comes from the east. smile

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

That part of the NS2 pipeline near Sweden is already completed. Not to mention NS1, which has been there in operation for 10 or so years. So they already have an excuse to go there, not that they're looking for one. I think they like your vodka elephant2, or is it the strömming fish2 they're after?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/19/swed...
https://www.rt.com/news/310967-sweden-russian-subm...
https://conservativeangle.com/two-swedish-fisherme...
https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tech/326583-stink...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Well with U-137 they definitely had enough of their own Russian made vodka available, but maybe it was the day after and it was completely finished, what do I know .. lol
And this last years there has been a lot of humpback whales sitings in the Baltic Sea even as far north as Stockholm and they are surely after the strömming, and they can also be mistaken for U-boats.

This thing with cutting of the gas was used in a conflict Russia hade, I can't remember who got the bad end of the stick, but you can as in Texas always blame it on faults and problems, it's a way hinting that you are not pleased.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Russia cut gas going to the Ukraine, maybe 15 years ago, but only because the Ukrainians didn't pay. Lucky they still have their kneecaps, although a quarter of the country has nearly disappeared. If I remember, the Ukrainians then started messing with some valves on the lines going to EU, but got told in no uncertain terms to stop that crap before someone got hurt. Dont get behind on payment and you'll always walk on both legs. Guaranteed.

From where does Sweeden's gas come. I dont think that I ever worried about that before.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Only 3% of our energiproduktion is natur gas.
And we have around 5-6 % more that is undefined power sources for district heating as unsortable waste, biogas, wood, oil, coal.
The rest is hydro, nuclear, wind, solar.
I think the natur gas it mostly comes from Norway.
The factory's with blue dots around are biogas facilities.



Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Thanks.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

7 mins in the North sea without a survival suit and your dead apart from you ya fatty..

This thing with cold water made me think of, Guðlaugur Friðþórssons he swam for 5 hours in the six-degree water and strong waves.
Eventually he was accompanied by a storm bird that circled above him throughout the swim.
After a couple of hours alone in the Atlantic, he began to sense the glow of the streetlights of Hemön.

They made this film about it, The Deep.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Fischstabchen)


About 25% of the electrical energy produced in Texas comes from renewables. If you take out hydro, which Texas doesn't have much of, Texas gets close to an equal share of its energy from renewables ss California. Texas is a very green state energy production-wise but that wouldn't fit your stereotype of Texas.

Citing 2017 data, Texas ranked 21st in the US for the production of renewable energy as a percentage of total produced with 16% of their 51 GW/day coming from renewable sources.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (RedSnake)

It is mostly because Baltic Sea is a very environmentally sensitive inland sea
I've been hearing this "environmentally sensitive" phrase for the past 30 years, and I'm not really sure what it means or what differentiates such an area from other areas. And I've never heard of an "environmentally insensitive" or "environmentally tough" areas, but they must exist if their opposite exists. Anyone have an explanation? ponder

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Spartan5,

Renewables have grown since 2017.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Fischstabchen,
Sure. To what? Do you have the hard, specific numbers?

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around Texas being described as "very green" at 16% in 2017 with Germany sitting around 50% and the top ten states in the US at over 36%.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Spaartan5,

Texas ERCOT 2020 Generation Profile

Comparing Germany to Texas is comparing apple and oranges. No one in the U.S. is going to go around prematurely closing down plants to put solar farms ro wind turbine and in addition Germany didn't have a natural gas boom. The natural boom in the U.S. has been a golden egg and a godsend. The percentage is artificially pressed down as well due to it including cogen, which uses waste heat and should not be counted as normal "natural gas" generation.

Renewables have their place but there are a lot of things that haven't been addressed well. Germany has nuclear power plants online for system inertia. California, North Carolina, and other states with high renewable penetration have frequency problems. We are sitting here talking about "well, why don't you just match Germany" as if that is the best answer and it is definitely not the most reliable answer, which is the topic of this thread. Renewables will make their course and become more prevalent as they get cheaper, which has been the trend and EIA predicts them to be as cheap as natural gas generation in 2040. But this idea that you are going to have this super stable system with low inertia ,due to switching to inverter based, non-dispatchable generation is hogwash. In fact, in the time leading up to this cold snap you could not have met the estimated demand of 76 GW if we had double, triple, or quadruple or whatever times ten is ,tentuple, the amount of available wind and solar energy. Aside from the problems I mentioned earlier, how are you going to meet the load when wind and solar generation are low without dispatchable generation? If you say LI-Ion batteries, you couldn't make enough Li-Ion batteries in 100 years to replace every peaker unit. California has a goal of being 100% renewable by some date without any concept or answer as to how that will be done. Everyone that pushes these ridiculous goals has no concept of what types of problems are created by having that much renewable penetration. I think a lot of people have this belief that the electrical grid is no more complicated than plugging a vacuum into an electrical outlet in your house.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Texas was at 22% of their total production coming from renewable sources in 2020. Source: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/browser/#/top...

The US was at 20%. And California was at 43%, or twice Texas. Even without the hydro, Texas isn't sniffing Cali at 21.5% vs. 32.0% (50% more for California).

I didn't crunch each of the rest of the states to see where Texas ranks. But at just 2% over the US average, I'm still having a tough time reconciling your classification of Texas as "very green."

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Spartan5,

Read the number from my linked post. 2020 Texas was at 25% excluding hydro. That number is higher if you don't include cogen and that puts you on a number that starts approaching 30% like california.

Texas has over 17 GW in cogen, which generates electricity using waste heat from unrelated processes.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2017/11/f3...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Fischstabchen,

The number from your linked post... you mean the picture of a pie chart from ERCOT? I shared with you the raw data that is the source of my calculations. I'm inclined to believe the pie chart with no supporting data is less accurate than the U.S. Energy Information Administration's.

And for what it's worth... California has cogen as well (8.6 GW). That appears to be the same as Texas as a proportion of total production (if not more). So what are you driving at?

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2017/11/f3...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Spartan5,

EIA numbers probably include all of Texas and not just the Texas Interconnect.

Frankly, I don't really care what California is doing because their system is a mess. You can go ahead and tout California's 30% green energy vs 25ish Texas Interconnect all while residential customers in parts of California are paying around $0.30 per kwh and in Texas they are paying around $0.10 per kwh. Anything you stick into the ground in California is profitable because electricity is so expensive there. California's electrical system isn't about serving its citizens.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Fischstabchen,

I'm not touting anything about California. I'm trying to reconcile Texas being "very green" from a renewables standpoint and the comparisons you were making but not supporting with any kind of evidence.

First it was eliminate hydro, ok. Sure.

Then it was look at 2020. Ok. California is still 50% more.

Then it was well there's cogen and that makes them equal when you take that out. Ok. But California has it too, maybe even more proportionally.

Now it's, "not Texas, just ERCOT." And the end, at the very best, it's 5% over the national average. But really more like 2% (per the data). Texas, the place we are talking about, is 22%.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.




edit removed misleading post that was talking about energy in general.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Fischstabchen,
Per the EIA data, sans hydro, the US is at 12.5%. Texas is at 21.5% (you have to subtract out their small amount of hydro as well). Even if we hold the rest of the states steady from the 2016 data here and move Texas from their 15.6% to 21.5% in 2020, they still don't crack the top 10. Why are we subtracting out hydro anyway?

In this thread I have learned that Texas has built a decent portfolio of renewables over the last few years. Which they promptly used as a scapegoat for their inability to run their own independent power grid resulting in the death of some 70 of their residents.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Fischstabchen,

The latest document you have shared is total energy, not just electricity, isn't it? Haven't we been talking about electricity?

Quote (Fischstabchen)

About 25% of the electrical energy produced in Texas comes from renewables. If you take out hydro, which Texas doesn't have much of, Texas gets close to an equal share of its energy from renewables ss California. Texas is a very green state energy production-wise but that wouldn't fit your stereotype of Texas.

All of my data is from the EIA link I provided. Have you looked at it? It's production. 2020 US renewable electricity with hydro 19.7%, without 12.5%. It's all right there. Wood biomass (roughly 2/3 of which is produced via cogeneration, mind you) is less than 1% of the total.



RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Fischstabchen)


...parts of California are paying around $0.30 per kwh and in Texas they are paying around $0.10 per kwh.

I suspect that many of the people who were paying $0.10 per kwh in Texas were the same people we've been reading horror stories about who had their bank accounts wiped out by those power companies who were selling a 'wholesale program' where their bills were linked to the spot market. One $10,000+ electric bill will cover that $0.20 difference for quite a few years.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

2
(OP)
From what I can see in the solar groups its basically a philosophy issue in Texas with home production and who makes the money.

They make it extremely difficult for people to not pay the big producers for their electricity and produce there own. Be that fossil fuel generated or renewables by the big producers.

There is all sorts of weird and wonderful setups to get round the restrictions. And just your normal grid tied setup takes a colossal amount of red tape and time to be allowed to be turned on. And the cost of it is colossal which most of the time when compared to 10 cents per kWh makes it uneconomic. Not that it makes any difference to some Texans who will quiet happily pay through the nose to not pay any money to the big company's. So they end up with ATS setups with generators linked in. Its quiet impressive to be honest the lengths they will go to.

As far as I can tell there is very little safety benefit to the regulations and requirements, most of them are just the result of lobbying from big industry. There has just been a load of import tariffs introduced regarding inverter parts. Its pretty blatant that its being done to force everyone into using microinverters and Enphase. Big industry can use 1500V strings, currently small producers can use 600V but there is lobbying to bring it down to 450V and its a retrospective reg change so all existing string inverter installations will need to be limited to 450V per string if the lobbying gets its way. To me its just a degree of crispiness the difference getting electrocuted by 1500V 1000V, 600V or 450V, your still dead.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

My post 2 Mar 21 17:30 has the EIA info, including hydro.

The loss of sales to residential customers alone is finally starting to hurt PUtilities in a number of regions. They have seldom seen any decrease in their sales at all before, ever. But they saw that coming. Alistair is right. They have been lobbying in some very restrictive conditions the world over, notably exception being Germany for one, to attach renewables to the grid. It used to cost € 8000 in Spain just for the engineering work necessary to connect to the grid, no matter if the installation was for 1000 W, or 50 MW. Of course nobody would pay that for tying in a 2500W home system, so effectively that reserved the field for exclusive use by public utility company systems only. Rooftop solar in general is a PU's nightmare. Its like what 3D printing is for Leggos. They are scared as hell because they know one day they will pretty much lose nearly all residential and small shop mfgr customers.

With the sun in TX, there is no excuse not to develop that resource to the fullest, other than it does not fit the PU business model. Solar is more available to to the general population than natgas and can shift load off the grid during daytime peak use. Germany is far ahead of TX and works with a lesser quantity of resource. That is a direct and valid comparison between TX and Germany. The rest of the comparison was simply because of my interest. Each region must optimize its available resources, so of course there will be inherent differences, which I also mentioned and highlighted. Conclusion: TX needs more solar and should probably add more wind, if suitable wind sites still exist at reasonable prices. Many of the best remaining wind sites in the US have options on them already purchased by speculators as long as 15 years ago. Try buying a site in Wyoming today.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
There is also a ploy in some areas that condemns your house as not fit for living in if you are not connected to the grid.

So the Texan Solution is to be connected but the only thing attached to that is the fridge. Everything else goes the off grid system.

As I say the ways round the regulations are impressive.

Where as my experience with German inverter OEM's is given in this thread so I won't post it again.

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=479631

The range of ability's and external control which you can make use of if you want to for the German market is impressive. Reactive dynamic power factor control turning out to be very useful for me.


RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

TX problem is air conditioning and ... keeping the beer cold.
They need to solve solar powered air conditioner's relatively high load. I think there are some that will work with solar now, but it has been a problem area.

Natgas for residential heating will probably always be around in TX. At least it heats air efficiently. Must be near 90%. So overall its probably less of a hit on the atmos than buying 35% eff generated electricity off the grid and then resistance heating again.

If they can make an electric pickup truck and TXns can get their heads around that bit, then they'll start buying solar chargers faster than a road runner dusting up hot asphalt.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Lou Scannon)

And I've never heard of an "environmentally insensitive" or "environmentally tough" areas, but they must exist if their opposite exists. Anyone have an explanation?

I can probably find a lot of articles on this for you if you want.

But the big issue in general is that the Baltic Sea has brackish water and it is a shallow sea.
The average depth is only about 55 meters.
There is no natural large flow or exchange of water as in the Atlantic or in the Pacific ocean.
Fresh water pours out from rivers around the Baltics Sea but the saltwater can only come in between Sweden and Denmark.
So the natural balance is more important then in a large sea, it can't take the same beating as other seas, since buffer/volume is smaller.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Must admit I struggle to see what the problem is with Air con and solar.

I have it in summer it sits there pulling 2 kW giving 6.5 kW of cooling power. I will grant you that when the compressor fires up it pulls 18 amps which is more than the inverter can pump out so for a couple of seconds it pulls from the grid. But that's not a big issue.

Its a water feed system which also does heating in the winter. Cooling COP is 3.2 ish and heating is 4.2 COP.

I hate refrigerant systems mainly because I can't fix them myself where as water feed I can cut copper pipe and get the blow torch out and do what ever I like with them.

To be honest the Baltic sea is pretty nasty. Its had loads of crap pumped into it over the years from heavy industry. Its also had quite a few primary coolant flushes performed in it not only by the Russians subs. As RS says there is limited circulation and mass transfer through the straights between Denmark and Sweden. Its pretty much dead below about 10 meters with no oxygen. there are currents but most of the crap just gets into dead water and then drops to the bottom. The local fishermen like to use drag nets which just lifts all the crap up and gets it floating again. Personally I don't eat anything that comes out of it. And its a big no no for women to eat stuff out of it when trying for a child or pregnant. This opinion though creates quite a lot of distress amongst the locals who are blind to what's happened to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Interestingly one issue with lots of domestic solar systems on the grid is that in the event of a power outage on a sunny day, there is a double hit if domestic areas lose power as you also lose all the solar input generation.

So not only does it mean that cutting the grid power off to an area has a lower impact than it might before, but if you are in positive, you also lose the Solar input generation.

But in texas it really should be a lot more than what they have at present.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I think it was just the previously high cost of a larger array. Since prices have come down, an extra few panels for starting loads isn't such a hit to the wallet as it once was.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

RedSnake, with respect, that didn't answer my question. Obviously for any given area a case can be made that it is "environmentally sensitive". So what, in general, makes these areas special compared to somewhere that has not (yet) been labeled as "environmentally sensitive". And I want someone to give me an example of an area that is not environmentally sensitive.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Sparten5,

The report I linked was an energy report. That was misleading and I deleted that post.

If you want to use the EIA data, it shows that the U.S. national is around 11-12% of energy coming from non-hydro renewables. Texas 20%+ depending on where you get your data. Texas produces twice as much wind and solar on a percentage basis than the national average.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Fischstaben,

The EIA data shows that the national average renewable electrical production with hydro is 19.7%, without 12.5%. Texas without hydro is 72% more than the US at 21.5%. That still puts them outside of the top ten. And why are we excluding hydro anyway?

Is there some problem with the EIA's information that calls it into question? Do you have another source of comprehensive, detailed data that shows something different?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Lou Scannon)

And I want someone to give me an example of an area that is not environmentally sensitive


RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
It's quiet sensitive to a cold environment apparently.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

It is like sausage. Everyone wants their diesel, gasoline, airplane fuel, lubricants, fertilizers, plastics, and any number of other products but doesn't want to make it themselves and points their nose down at who makes it for them. You'll find refineries and chemical plants in nearly every state but Texas just has more due to logistics and past history. All of them are eye sores. You can't make a bunch of distillation columns and mile and miles of piping look pretty. I think some people have it wrapped in their head that the industrial gulf coast was created by earth hating pollutionist and not tremendous public demand and need for a number of products.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Every country in the world has a protected area system. Protected areas cover around 15.4 per cent of the world’s land area and 3.4 per cent of the global ocean area. They store 15 percent of the global terrestrial carbon stock, help reduce deforestation, habitat and species loss, and support the livelihoods of over one billion people. The number of designated protected areas rose between 1990 and 2014 from 13.4 million km2 to 32 million km2 of the total area covered.

So, since 80% of the earth's surface is not listed, and the reasons that areas are E.S. are many and diverse and often not apparent to the casual observer, it is easier to concentrate on areas that are E.S.
State and National Parks, monuments and designated scenic beauty, trails, recreational, wildlife areas are E.S.
Habitats harboring endangered species are E.S., esp. breeding grounds and migration routes and resting areas.
Areas requiring long times to recover for any reason after sustaining light damage are particularly E.S.
Areas having a unique or critical, or otherwise cultural or economically valuable resource are E.S.
Areas of historic, architectural, scientific, archaeological, or cultural interest and heritage of many kinds are often E.S.

You can be sure that these protected areas are E.S.
World Database on Protected Areas
https://www.protectedplanet.net/en

When in doubt, contact the environmental authorities in the local area of your particular interest for more specific info.



RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Lou Scannon
Obviously for any given area a case can be made that it is "environmentally sensitive". So what, in general, makes these areas special compared to somewhere that has not (yet) been labeled as "environmentally sensitive". And I want someone to give me an example of an area that is not environmentally sensitive.

I am not shore that question can be answered, it depends on how large areas we are talking about and what is impacting them.
And for a country it's only possible to determine that a area is "non sensitive" to the what ever they are planing to do with it, but if you take into a count everything that comes in from all other directions that they do not decides over, it would not be impossible as I see it.

Fischstabchen
Everyone wants their diesel, gasoline, airplane fuel, lubricants, fertilizers, plastics, and any number of other products but doesn't want to make it themselves and points their nose down at who makes it for them.

Everybody does not want all those things.
But I understand what you mean.
At least here we do a lot to replace all the mentioned things with environmentally friendly alternatives or reuse what we can and not manufacture more.
But it is very much up to consumers to take responsibility, it's easy to avoid those things when there are alternatives but when there are none, it's hard to avoid them.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Texas has the refineries, chemical processing economic base for the same reason that every region has their particular speciality product... economics. Tx has refining and chemicals economic base because they are sitting on top of the required resources and feedstocks, have relatively cheap fuel, access to the finance, technology and support of producers of other products needed to make their gas, diesel and chemicals and deliver them to their market, which they also just happen to sit in the middle of, that demands their products. Actually there aren't many industrialised processes that look pretty. Steal mills, textile mills, open pit mines, shipyards, most any typical harbor, freight or stock yard, slaughterhouse, sausage and leather tanning, sewage treatment plant, or pig farm are not extremely pleasant to be around. Most all of them have their dirty water, bare steel, concrete, and smokestack. I don't even particularly like looking at wind turbines on top of my mountain, or at the end of my beach, 50MW of solar panels, or the top of a blazingly hot solar power tower where a nice cotton field once bloomed. But hey, I don't think everyone's got their nose up about it. Maybe just those Google, FB and MS guys and what they do, much of it isn't pretty either. My advantage there is I dont need FB, but most of them want my gasoline and surely my jet fuel. Least for the short term time frame. Zoom vacations just aren't that great.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Redsnake,

You can't segregate the things you want from the things needed to create those things. You can go about trying to make the things that you want with other things but in the case with gas and oil, there really is no comparable feed stock. It is often the best only only practical feed stock for many different products. 200 years from now, I think people will look back and be dumbfounded about the fact that we wasted so much of this amazing feed stock by just burning it.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

2
Fischstabchen
You can't segregate the things you want from the things needed to create those things.
I do not really know what you mean.
Sometimes I can do it, sometimes I can not.
If I need something I can choose to buy something that does not contain plastic or is made using electricity produced with gas, oil or coal.
It does not mean that it is necessarily of inferior quality or has inferior function so why wouldn't I choose that.



Which would you choose plastic, juniper wood or hand forged?

You can go about trying to make the things that you want with other things but in the case with gas and oil, there really is no comparable feed stock.
Well natur gas has usually lower energi values them bio gas that contains 100% methane.
Oil might be necessary and even non replaceable in some cases, but not for heating and electricity manufacturing.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I'm waiting for the future when the world puts tarriffs on carbon unfriendly countries... it's likely the only way to force those to comply... they won't do it voluntarily...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

dik, don't hold your breath waiting for that future...

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Not tariffs... sanctions.

Biogas isn't 100% pure naturally. It comes with just enough H2S and water to make corrosion troubles. Compressors and instruments dont like it all that much, but the nasties can be sieved out or treated first. If its a landfill gas field, the water can carry heavy metals and other toxins that get leached out of the rubbish. Then you've got to handle that stuff. Seems that no gas is all roses. H2 may be the best possibility. Requires a bit of energy to make it, but if you have a enough renewable sources, wind or PV, but want gas, at least you can do it cleanly and you don't get anything but pure water and heat when you burn that.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I'm not holding my breath... but, I don't know of how you can deal with an environmental scoflaw... sanctions don't work... tarriffs do...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Tarriffs apply to products. If you don't buy their stuff, how can you punish them? Sanctions apply to money transfers. They don't get paid by anybody. You don't have to buy, or see the product at the border. Easy. Tarriffs just make products more expensive for whoever buys them.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

concur... but tarriffs, if high enough, do cut down on the demand substantially, and yes, the consumer pays for all tarriffs. That's why I was thinking it was so funny when Donald slapped all the tarriffs on the Chinese. To reiterate... sanctions will not work.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (dik)


...and yes, the consumer pays for all tarriffs. That's why I was thinking it was so funny when Donald slapped all the tarriffs on the Chinese.

But the sheeple don't know that. These are the same people who think that Trump actually built 500 miles of NEW wall and that Mexico did pay for it.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

If it is a low value product, plastic spoons, pmost eople will still buy them. Tarriffs protect domestic industries from cheap foreign competition. Raising the foreigner's product equal to or higher than the domestically produced product, thereby allowing the domestic producer to retain his price and remain in business, or by reaching a fair value in the domestic market that allows domestic companies to make that product in country, creating local jobs, tax revenue and helping to equalise the balance of international trade (payments).

If sanctions don't work, why is the US so fixated on them. Somebody think they work.

Why are we talking about this, rather than carbon taxes?

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (dik)

...the consumer pays for all tariffs

So yes, ultimately the consumers of other countries, in particular the US, pay for China's climate transgressions. Beautiful.

Honestly the only thing I see working long term is for the various societies of the world to become prosperous enough that they can and will afford concern for the environment. Very long term.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

I can see Texas doing this...

As far as carbon footprint take a look at the per capita numbers (it's more meaningful)... other than a handful of small Middle East countries, the US is at the head of the list, by a fair margin... and China is down about #13 or so. China is not the big transgressor. Canada, the UK, Australia and the US (not in order are I think the top 4... without making excuses for Canada, we have issues with Climate and long travel distance that move us up on the 'list'.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Per capita, sure, but most figures show China at nearly double (total emissions) of US. That seems an important distinction to me, if we're concerned about C02.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

That's correct, but the China numbers are based on their huge population... when you look at the reality of things, where the carbon output is based on the individuals creating it... China #1 based on their large population as opposed to #13 (was, not sure now) based on per capita; the focus shifts a bit. The US becomes the leader of the pack... on a per capita basis, the UK, Australia, and Canada are near the top... I suspect that it's for political expedience... and to vilify... not the reality of things.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Redsnake,

Try to make a car or more complicated than a spoon or cup without petroleum products. This idea that "we'll just switch to something else" is just a half baked idea that ignores decades research it took to make these products or the added expense that will get passed to the consumer.

I sometimes get this impression that some environmentalist are detached from the reality that most people are living paycheck to paycheck, have near zero net worth, and likely would not prioritize anything that adds to their cost of living. I think that some people think that some groups just don't care about the environment but what it is is the presence of more pressing concerns. This person that just doesn't care is a fiction. There isn't a person alive that ever thought "thank god for smog.". So, in my opinion, when you hear someone denying any human impact on the environment, most of the time what that is is someone saying "I can barely keep my head above water and you want me to give you more of my money." So, with something like moving away from natural gas, aside from the technical problems, you are never going to get buy in on this idea of going 100% renewables when it would likely mean tripling people's electrical bills. Every environmental initiative would sell itself if it helped people keep their head above water. Solar panels are starting to get to that point and that is something that sells itself. You can't expect someone to care about the ice caps when they are behind on their mortgage.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

My definition of GREEN: Using the minimum required inputs to achieve the desired output. That's it.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Fischstabchen)

the reality that most people are living paycheck to paycheck, have near zero net worth...
Yet these are the same people are tripping over themselves to get into Walmart on Black Friday to gorge themselves on “stuff.” How could they possibly find time to care about the ice caps when they have a fresh Netflix series to binge on one of their several television sets / tablets / smartphones.

Step right up...

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Agreed SntMan do the best you can to minimise resource burn.

Must admit they don't seem to have a solution what to do with solar panels after they have dropped their power output. I have sized my system for 25 years @70% but a lot people seem to be dumping the panels after they drop to 90%. And there doesn't seem to be any plan what to do with them apart from landfill.

Battery's certainly in the US seems to be mainly FLA 12V lead acid for my size of system, which seem to survive about 5 years before getting swapped out. My LiFe4PO have a 25 year lifespan and cost 2.5 times the price of a FLA system to set up, but last 5 times as long and you get to discharge them down to 5% if you want to. To be honest I don't have room for a equivalent capacity FLA system anyway and the 3 monthly maint on them has issues for me.

Its the required mix that's important along with what to do at night for the big picture along with redundancy and crisis management.

Maybe excess power during the summer/blowing a gale gets pumped into producing hydrogen which is then burned when the wind drops or the sun is hiding?

What I do know though is purely betting on market forces to sort it out will not work.

Quiet how to deal with the insurance policy of spin reserves etc I don't know.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Alistair)

Maybe excess power during the summer/blowing a gale gets pumped into producing hydrogen which is then burned when the wind drops or the sun is hiding?
That brings up a question that I have wondered.
What kind of efficiency can you get converting electricity into hydrogen and back into heat energy?

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Probably pretty rubbish Bill. I wouldn't be surprised if its in 20-30% area.

But then again once you have your buffer tank full of it your just keeping it cold.

But I am pretty sure there will be other uses for it.

Burn it and you collect the water coming out the other side to split again.

To be honest though when you start heating domestically by direct burning it pretty horrible efficiency's anyway. Compared to what you could be getting using alternative methods. Same with cooling to be honest as well. I cool my underfloor heating pipes in the summer and have fans moving the air about. 2 kw of electricity used and I have a delta T of -13 degs the good way with the ground to get rid of it. If I was on an air heatpump system I would have +10 degs the bad way. After heatpump reverse direction in the summer I get 4.5 COP for heating water so I get the heat back I have just pumped out the house. Air would be better though for heating water if the outside temp is over 30.

BTW don't worry there is an active system that watches the floor temp and also calculates the dew point so the floor doesn't get wet. Its not triggered so far with a water feed temp of 10 deg C. And with the floor cool during the day using solar power everything turns off when the sun goes down and its good for the night.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Spartan5,

Yes, because the quality of life is amazing for the middle class and poor in the U.S. We all drive around Teslas on gold roads and gloat about our amazing job protections and health coverages and the health problems we don't put off treatment for or the food lines that we didn't wait in line for that were over a mile long or college loans that we still are not paying off 20 years later or how our kid's college tuition will not cost as much as a small house. The U.S. is truly a land of wonder if you are not wealthy.

How do you expect people to care about ice caps or whatever when there are very real immediate problems? It just starts feeling like environmental elitism when there is such a big disconnect from reality.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
Nothing has changed, this has been happening for hundreds of years.

Its the same setup as it was when the Knights of the round table were giving the workers a good stabbing or a hot iron up the bum for taking a rabbit in their back garden. These days its collecting sunlight in your back Garden.

The rules change but its all circular to keep the peasants in their place. The real trick is to get them to fight so things never change. But they learned how to do that in Templar Knights period so its nothing new.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Whats changed is that there are a lot more peasants now. Inflation adjusted wages have been decreasing ever since the initial development and the rise to a relatively high level of power of the middle class that began shortly after the many deaths from black plagues caused a near worldwide and extreme labour shortage. The peasants began to collect wages from the landowners, whereas prior to that time, under the feudal system, they only retained a portion of the crops that they grew on the landowner's estates. With wages they earned, many escaped the ties to working the fields for the elite class and began other occupations as tradesmen, shopkeepers and craftsmen. Some bought their own land. The labourers and newly greater middle class held much of that advantage until the advent of machines that displaced so many of them out of the labour markets during the rise to the industrial revolution and the overthrow of the ruling class and royalties of the mid 1700-1900. The decline of labour in the face of automation continues to this day.

Most conditions have gotten better for a good part of the world with technological progress, however today there are 100,000 + Americans alone that have at least $1E9 "in the bank", so unless that's you, you can see how the middle class is fairing. The scale is a sliding scale. You may not feel like you are working the land behind plow and sickle, but on that sliding scale, you just might be.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

As I recall, the 2 issues the utilities have with home solar PV is (a) safety of the lineman during maintenance of the local grid and (b) profits reduced due to home solar PV generation reducing the need for utility peak power resources, which are priced at inflated prices during daylight hours.

In areas with a large PV input ( california, hawaii, south australia) , the utility must also contend with fatigue damage of the thermal power plant pressure parts, caused by daily cycling of the large plants that were originally designed for once a year startups but now contend with 365 startups per year.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
The linesmen safety in Europe is taken care of by having all inverters drop off line if they loose there grid reference. It is extremely difficult and problematic to run an auto transfer switch to disconnect and then go off grid. They want the whole lot disconnected including the transformer earth. Its sort of possible but very expensive plus you need a live test every year and they test something to do with the earthing at the same time. When I looked at it it was going to double the cost of my installation plus pay for the inspection every year for some specialist to travel a colossal distance and 3 days labour.


From what I see Australia is the same.

The other problem is that it causes power factor issues. Which Germany has tackled by making it mandatory to have ripple receivers and power factor controlling. The plants getting taken up and down is also controlled by the ripple receivers they can reduce solar injection if required or even turn it all off remotely but continue to allow home consumption.

The who gets the money/profits is what's driving the lobbying the world over.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Good point about start cycles. Quite true. In fact many were probably originally designed to cover base load, but with the advent of alternative sources that cannot be counted on to cover base load, but none the less are producing power, that has pushed them into peaker service. Its a use them or lose them situation, for which they are not well suited, but none the less can continue to function until they can eventually be replaced with heavy cyclic duty units as those older designs burn out, or develop battery or other storage capacity to act on their behalf. We still need peaker capacity of some kind, so its them or nothing for the moment. Actually it is the same situation that faces all industries that operate in areas where technology is advancing at a rapid pace to accommodate needs that also seem to be changing year to year. It seemed that the A380 was just coming into widespread use only to be quickly discontinued. My desktop is 10yrs old now, but I also use it less and less, so its cyclic load is also decreasing and it can probably run another ten years as a result. . Perhaps batteries will take over some of the peaker's duties and they will be able to run another 10 years as well.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (waross)

What kind of efficiency can you get converting electricity into hydrogen and back into heat energy?

Couple of papers on the "hydrogen economy". Somewhat dated, but the physics have not changed.

Spoiler: It's not economical :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
its was only a suggestion hadn't looked at it really.

The thermal cycles is what the ripple receivers are in the mix for in Germany.

Basically when the coal fired stations in Germany hit there min out put they start reducing solar and wind via the ripple system.

So when the plants hit min output the broadcast is sent out and all the domestic solar drops output to 80% and if demand further drops it happens again down to 60% etc etc. The inverter battery systems allow them to charge using the capacity they can't feed in and provide local consumption. Goes dark solar they broadcast out an increase or a release to 100% as the light drops off by itself injection drops coal start ramping up again. Batteries take care of local usage to cover while the coal power ramps up. By the time the batteries run out the coal is back up to normal operating temps.

The little people still produce there own and get to inject a bit and charge there batteries, Coal plants don't go cold and also cover what fuel is used and operating costs. And everyone is happy.

But it wouldn't work I suspect in Texas because the big boys would lobby to screw the little people over to maximise their profits and nobody would be happy.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

For what it's worth:

Texas power grid CEO fired after deadly February blackouts

Bill Magness was given a two-month termination notice by ERCOT's board in a meeting Wednesday night.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-power-g...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

(OP)
I wonder what he has in his share portfolio...

And he will start work the next day if he so wishes with one of the big boys. Or maybe a few of them doing one day a month and actually earn more than he does just now.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Yeah, these people never just go away...

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (My definition of GREEN: Using the minimum required inputs to achieve the desired output. That's it.)


I think the definition requires a couple of addenda... 'the minimum required inputs' have to be environmentally friendly, and the output has to include the 'cradle to grave' life history... then your definition is better...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (The U.S. is truly a land of wonder if you are not wealthy.)


lol

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

dik, your definition does, mine does not :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

...and that's part of the problem...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

News...
"AUSTIN, TEXAS -- Texas' power grid manager was fired Wednesday amid growing calls for his ouster following February's deadly blackouts that left millions of people without electricity and heat for days in subfreezing temperatures.

Bill Magness, CEO of the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, becomes the second senior official to depart in the wake of the one of the worst blackouts in U.S. history. The state's top utility regulator resigned Monday.

Magness was given a two-month termination notice by ERCOT's board in a meeting Wednesday night. The move came as the grid operator is now under investigation by the House Oversight Committee."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

SntMan,

The hydrogen production is getting pushed because the electrical grid has been built up to meet some arbitrary green energy goal. Round trip on hydrogen producing windmills to electricity is around 30%.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Sounds about right. Fortunately a high efficiency is not required to get the job done.

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Quote (Alistair)

Maybe excess power during the summer/blowing a gale gets pumped into producing hydrogen which is then burned when the wind drops or the sun is hiding?

One thing that stil needs electricity and maybe more so in the summer then in the winter is electrical cars.
Of course you cant save the energi in the car to the winter, but other sources that hade to been used instead can be saved.
Saving hydropower or or even pumping water back in hydro storages is one way.

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

dik, well, yeah exactly, nobody knows exactly what means GREEN. Some seem to think it means shutting down western economies while building a coal plant a week in, ummm, somewhere in Asia.

Fischstabchen, yeah I know why, but from my reading (primarily the two linked papers), I am underwhelmed :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

The problem has to be solved... not relocated.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Note that due to the length of this thread, a new one has been started:

Please continue discussion in the new thread.
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=480093

So stop using this one, and post any new entries or replies in the above thread.

Thank you thumbsup2

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Storing or transporting large amounts of hydrogen is problematic, and there are alternative system configurations that either burn the H2 in a gas turbine at the same location the H2 is generated and stored ( short term), or convert the H2 to ammonia NH3, store it , then burn the NH3 in a gas turbine modified to combust NH3.

If H2 is injected in the natural gas pipeline system it affects the "merchantability" of the gas as it changes its wobbe index and the combustor's flame flicker frequency and emission characteristics.

IMO, if the "climate change" narrative is modified to accept the upcoming "maunder minimum" and allows continuing use of methane , then the H2 can be converted to CH4 methane and directly injected into the existing gas pipeline system, as it only slightly affects the wobbe index and flame characteristics. I believe this conversion H2==> CH4 can be accomplished with an iron catalyst and carbon particle fluidized reactor.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

RE: Texas power issues. Windfarms getting iced up.

Please move the conversation to the part 2 thread.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

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