Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
(OP)
The original thread covering the crash that took the life of Kobe Bryant and his daughter, and others, has been closed...
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=463885
...so I'm starting this thread because there's some new news.
Anyway, recent reports have come out that the helicopter pilot was not cleared to fly in bad weather. On the day of the crash, he had been given clearance under 'visual flight rules' only, but there was bad weather and it was while flying through a cloud bank that it appears that the pilot became disoriented, which resulted in the crash:
Kobe Bryant Crash Pilot Disoriented In Clouds, Agency Says
Pilot Ara Zobayan had nearly broken through the clouds when the helicopter banked abruptly and plunged into the hills below, killing all aboard.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kobe-bryant-crash-i...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=463885
...so I'm starting this thread because there's some new news.
Anyway, recent reports have come out that the helicopter pilot was not cleared to fly in bad weather. On the day of the crash, he had been given clearance under 'visual flight rules' only, but there was bad weather and it was while flying through a cloud bank that it appears that the pilot became disoriented, which resulted in the crash:
Kobe Bryant Crash Pilot Disoriented In Clouds, Agency Says
Pilot Ara Zobayan had nearly broken through the clouds when the helicopter banked abruptly and plunged into the hills below, killing all aboard.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kobe-bryant-crash-i...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
Not a complaint, just an observation.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
Then we could also have a "good news which engineers might find interesting and enjoy discussing" forum.
JohnR,
Lots of wings hanging on St Peter's gates are wondering the same.
I must admit I was flying VFR when an overcast suddenly appeared underneath, except for one hole just large enough for me to spirally descend through and below. Fortunately there was still enough clearance and height of cloud over ground to let me get to the nearest airport under VFR. Water vapor sometimes spontaneously condenses into fog and clouds with minimal temperature change, especially near hills and mountains during high humidity atmospheres. The worst place for that to happen.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
As I recall this was discussed at least peripherally in the original thread. An affliction sometimes called "get-there-itis".
The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
If you had read the previous thread or the ntsb reports you might understand better.
Here is the summary from the ntsb https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2021-BM...
and the summary from the news release is here. https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR2...
The flight started under VFR and the company was not allowed to fly on IFR, but during the flight the conditions changed and the pilot decided to continue, climb ( he was apparently cleared for IFR, but may not have been flying that way for a while) into what the aviation boys call "into Instrument Meteorological Conditions" or IMC. You or me would call it "flying into a cloud"... his aim was to break through the low cloud so that the radar from the airport could find him and tell him where to go.
Then with the sudden loss of the true horizon, he seems to have got disorientated and failed to transit to the artificial horizon on his flights controls - which to be fair to his memory is reported as being very difficult to do - thought he was flying level and straight up through the cloud, but was actually in an increasing diving turn to the left which he didn't notice until it was too late and he had a windscreen full of hillside.
The issue is a known one of pressure to complete the flight, either from the client, the company or just his own desire to complete the flight - they call it "plan continuation bias" - and apparently a lack of a pre planned plan B. You can see this happening in so many incidents where people continue to plough on disregarding alarms, not believing what the instruments are telling them, disregarding changing situations and become tunnel vision focussed on reaching the destination / end point.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
The man was a professional pilot flying a multi-million dollar bird, not your neighbor’s Cessna so no need to continue vilifying.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
And, sorry, you are entitled to your opinion, but you also do not have to be here if you'd rather be doing something else.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
I don't think it was a cloud he collided with...
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
Not saying this happened here, but statistically these weather related accidents happen most often, not to inexperienced pilots, but those with just enough experience to think they have developed excellent flying skills, more than adequate to see them through marginal conditions, not thinking there is a very real possibility the conditions might worsen enroute. They concentrate on the known skill set variables and their known capabilities, but forget to take into account the other uncontrollable variables, which at times can be a bigger advantage than knowing how to fly well in itself. I'm still here.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
I think there is a fatality every 45 days in the HEMS rotary air ambulance world in the USA. Most of them due to weather related or at night loss of control.
VFR is a a lot higher work load in my opinion than IFR I haven't flown VFR in 10 years. I am fixed wing though.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
It's not clear which poster or post you're referring to. By the time you respond another post may have been made.
I don't disagree about the pub, that's got a bit toxic recently but maybe that matches the mood of the US at the moment.
But this forum I think works very well. The miami bridge thread the combined thought proved found what is generally taken to be the issue after about 4 weeks.
This thread is using, at least from my view, the considered view of the NTSB. I'm not vilifying or denigrating the pilot, but trying to understand what he clearly didn't do correctly otherwise he wouldn't have crashed. Learning from incidents like this help everyone prevent the next one.
Was it a engineering design issue or a human issue? Probably a bit of both, but the pilot gets it 90% of the time.
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
The part that makes me sick is Kobe's widow filing monetary lawsuits. My goodness, how much money does she need? Kobe made more than enough in his life for her to live in luxury for the rest of hers and her children. But then again I'm not a greedy SOB and I almost want to throw up when I see ambulance chaser lawyer commercials on TV.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
My posts reflect my personal views and are not in any way endorsed or approved by any organization I'm professionally affiliated with.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies forum1529: Translation Assistance for Engineers Entire Forum list http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
There are many proper engineering threads in the forum where there is a web of contracts and sub contracts with external sign offs. And sales team over selling the real capabilities
Just reading the latest output from the Grenfell enquiry. Which reminds me to see what's new in the Miami bridge thread.
Aviation accidents reports only establish what happened and make safety recommendations. They don't as such point the finger of blame. But if there are no technical findings then the finger is firmly pointed towards the pilot/s. And to be honest most of the time it is human performance related.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
I'm interested to work out what exactly you think about crash investigations of this type. This is not simply an "engineering" view of life and in this case nothing broke or failed to work as required, but the helicopter crashed and everyone on board died. So something clearly went wrong. Given the lack of flight and cockpit data recorders - which the NTSB has recommended on a number of occasions and the FAA doesn't agree - a certain level of speculation based on the data that is available is inevitable. That doesn't, IMHO, make such speculation and informed comment "defamatory, unethical, and in poor taste".
I also don't accept that what generally occurs on these threads is "gossip" or "hot air" and equally when incorrect statements appear they are challenged. The start three posts in this update thread might come into this category and they were challenged and links provided to the NTSB actual report to correct them.
This is what the report says about probable cause.
"The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this
accident was the pilot’s decision to continue flight under visual flight rules into instrument
meteorological conditions, which resulted in the pilot’s spatial disorientation and loss of control.
Contributing to the accident was the pilot’s likely self-induced pressure and the pilot’s plan
continuation bias, which adversely affected his decision-making, and Island Express Helicopters
Inc.’s inadequate review and oversight of its safety management processes. "
The only really new piece of information not previously available was that the company procedures either didn't require the pilot to update his flight risk analysis form at the point of near departure, which would still have been "low risk", but would have required clearance from the ops director and a plan B being put in place.
I agree that it's always far too easy to point the finger at the poor guy at the pointy end without always showing that the "system" was at fault for allowing the situation to develop.
But if you don't like the forum and don't want to contribute in any way, then this is your choice. You can remove forums from your My forums list.....
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
I agree. Just had a related conversation with my Manger a few days ago. He observed that in aviation, no effort is spared to engineer out single point failures that could cause a hull loss. Aviation accidents are typically the result of a chain of events. Most discussions on aviation accidents aren't going to be engineering disasters.
Regarding pilot error, no airplane does much of anything without a pilot. So yeah, the pilot more often than not plays a significant role in all outcomes when it comes to flying, good or bad. One really bad day cancels out all credits earned during the thousands of good days that preceded it.
My posts reflect my personal views and are not in any way endorsed or approved by any organization I'm professionally affiliated with.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
Most aircraft do such a good job of flying themselves straight and level, they can do that all by themselves, so when they don't, someone, or some thing is usually making it do something else. Even in a stall, the best way to get most aircraft safely out of it is to adjust to the appropriate power setting, take your hands off the yoke and let the plane fly its own way out. In fact, most aircraft fly themselves so well that any accident is going to be the result of someone, or something trying to make it do otherwise. Of course that is usually going to be someone trying to stop it flying and get back down onto a runway. Although none of this is true for helicopters. They are inherently unstable.
Actually I only disagree slightly with your last point, which implies that a pilot gets credit earned for good days flying that can be drawn upon and used on those bad flying days. My view is, "Pilots don't get no credit! Each flight starts anew with balance of 0.0000". Less than ideal mechanical, or flying conditions, etc. can only push that balance negative.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
Anyways, to put this bluntly, if the pilot had survived he would have been charged criminally.
It's a bit reminiscent of this story:
"The report found this discussion caused the Captain to experience "clash of motives."[3] On one hand he knew that landing in the reported weather conditions was unsafe.[3] On the other hand, he faced strong motivation to land at Smolensk anyway.[3] He expected a strong negative reaction from the President if he chose to divert the airplane and land at an alternate airport.[3]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_air_disaste...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
I suspect it all started to go wrong when he had to change frequency. Which requires a hand and looking at something other than the instruments.
Only did a couple of hours in them. But completely different to fixed wing.
I don't think the FAA knows what to do with these FAR135? operations. There will be uproar if they tighten down on them but the accident stats are horrible. Europe the regs are so tight it doubles if not triples the price of a charter. And HEMS also costs 3 times as much.... fraction of the fatality rate per 100 000 hours though.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
They have been recommending CVR's and FDR's for 30 odd years and its always been successfully been lobbied against.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
I've been in two helicopter "incidents", both in the Colombian Andes, and fortunately, the pilots were extremely skilled, as I believe most are, at least in Colombia. You have to have some faith there. Any bad ones don't survive flying the Andes for very long. All the clouds there can have rock linings. One helicopter experienced a lamination failure in the rotor as we descended into rough winds blowing down the valley, just west of the Eastern Cordillera towards Ocaña and another, the pilot was following the Arauca River, only a few meters above it, in rain and heavy mist, when a river boat awith a very tall mast appeared immediately in front of us.
I don't count one fixed wing "near incident", at least near enough for me. An Air France flight, that went into a mountain in Bogota, because, fortunately, I was on the same flight number, but two months before. I don't like flying anything in the Andes very much at all, but still have faith in the pilots. You have to.
https://ecfr.io/Title-14/Part-135
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
In December 1988, me and a coworker flew to Germany to attend some meetings at Opal in Rüsselsheim. It was the week before Christmas and we had planned to be there for four days (our flight home was already booked). Anyway, after two days we had finished our meetings and if it had been any other time of the year, we might have decided to stick with our original flights, and spend the extra days doing a little sightseeing, however, since it was so close to Christmas, we decided to try and change our flights. At the time I was still working for McDonnell Douglas but the German EDS team was acting as our host for our visits at Opal (a subsidiary of GM). So we asked one of the admins in the EDS office to see if they could change our flights. We had flown from LAX to Frankfort, via Chicago, on American Airlines and they were able to get our return flight changed to the 21st, getting us home two days early.
Anyway, on the morning of the 21st, when we got to the Frankfort airport I mentioned to my coworker, who had never been at the Frankfort airport before this trip, that I was shocked at how lax the security appeared to be. I know it was just a few days before Christmas and people were carrying all sorts of carry-on including wrapped gifts. Now there was still the normal screening, X-raying the carry-ons, but there was very few people being given a second look or their bags, which was usually pretty standard in Frankfort. Also, there were very few heavily armed police walking around, again something that had been common on my previous times in the Frankfort airport.
Anyway, we got on our flight, which was pretty uneventful, making it to Chicago without any problems, as was the case with our flight to LA. Anyway, I caught the shuttle home to Orange County, but I hadn't told my wife that I was coming home early as I was going to surprise her and the kids. But when I walked in she yelled at me for flying home TODAY, of all days, the 21st. When I asked her what the big deal was, she said, didn't you hear the news?
Back then, the LAST place you'd ever hear about an air-crash was while you were on a flight or at an airport (remember, this was before cell-phones). Anyway, December 21, 1988 was the day that Pan Am flight 103 was blown out of the sky over Lockerbie, Scotland. Now if the EDS admin had told us that they couldn't get us on that American Airlines flight, but there was this Pan Am flight to Detroit by way of London, where we could then get a flight to LAX, we probably would have taken it, so as to get home early.
That has always haunted me, but I continued to fly, for another 25+ years, passing through the Frankfort airport many more times, but I have to say, I never saw lax security there again. It was always very visible and in-your-face.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
Honestly out of the 17 deaths I have dealt with in my aviation career. Half of them have been burning petrol in fixed wing and the other half are rotary.
They are utterly lethal contraptions.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
Right. Frankfurt must be the most heavily armed AP outside an active war zone and maybe inside too. Lots of iron there. But for me not so scarey as others. All their guys are over 14yrs old.
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
RE: Reopening the Kobe Bryant crash thread...
https://youtu.be/iwTUW0vp5N0