With my fat fingers, I must use a stylus. There goes my ability to drive. Or stick a stylus into each choice and we have........buttons.

That point about tactile is a good one ACtrafficengr. It could be worked around by voice telling the finger what it's doing and then requiring, say, a double tap.

Keith Cress
kcress - http://www.flaminsystems.com

Surely they have voice control??

"Ok tesla, turn wipers on"

What can go wrong?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

"Ok tesla, turn wipers on"
What can go wrong?

Which the Tesla AI interprets as "OK Tesla, turn right soon", so it turns on the right indicator.

Actually, this could be construed as very "human" behaviour. In Australia, we drive on the left, and "native" RHD cars generally have the lights and indicators on the right stalk, and the wipers on the left stalk. Many cars which are predominantly built in LHD variants often have the lights and indicators on the left stalk, and the wipers on the right stalk. On many occasions, I have picked up a rental car and signalled my intention to turn or change lanes with a quick sweep of the wipers!

http://julianh72.blogspot.com

J Hardy.

This used to be the same in the UK, but changed a few years ago when all new cars in the EU standardised to the RHD system. But yes, before them as you jumped from car to car the wipers would suddenly jump into life.

Even worse was when you went to flash some one and ended up with a screen full of water!

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

Meanwhile, clumsy rest-of-the-world me jumps in a rental car at the Sydney airport, and curses the mirroring of the stalk functions to no end, wondering why the f&%# they couldn't just transfer the steering column and stalks as-is to the other side of the car ...

Yeah, that definitely sounds like a design error. Tesla is known for fixing things with software updates. Hopefully, they'll fix this, too.

Quote (Auto Evolution)

Since the driver can’t adjust the speed of the wipers with just one click and a quick glance (there’s a multi-option menu to navigate before making the final choice), use of the touchscreen “is permitted to the motor vehicle driver only under the conditions” of German regulation, “regardless of the purpose the motor vehicle driver pursues with its operation.”

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-model-3-d...

My glass has a v/c ratio of 0.5

Maybe the tyranny of Murphy is the penalty for hubris. - http://xkcd.com/319/

J Hardy

I was only in Oz once and my passenger commented "I always know when you are going to turn because you turn the wipers on".

Nearly every real automotive company has learned that people want and need some real knobs and switches with dedicated functions.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

Could be worse; the A/C control on a Lexus 450h is buried 3 menus deep, instead of having a button, like some of the other climate controls in the same car. We wind up leaving the A/C permanently on, which is a waste.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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GM seems to be getting it right.
My '01 Sierra pickup had knobs that were easy to use by feel.
My wife's '07 Yukon was harder to use with up-down buttons to select the heating mode, but a very dim hard to read display to indicate which mode had been selected.
My '19 Silverado has very user friendly buttons for each mode and a pilot light in each button to indicate which mode has been selected.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

The "fancier" a car is, the crappier the user interface usually is... sad.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

The two rental cars that I never have control issues with are Toyota and Ford.
I haven't owned a Ford in 40 years, and their controls just make sense.
Toyota ( at least through 2020) has kept things clean.

And yes it has almost become that having straight forward controls is seen as a design weakness.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

Quote (jhardy1)

Which the Tesla AI interprets as "OK Tesla, turn right soon", so it turns on the right indicator.

Or activates the self drive mode and turns right at the next intersection for you...

Eh, there's enough poorly designed layouts with standard buttons that touchscreens aren't upsetting. More than anything, I think its a case a "size matters." I have fairly "normal" fingers, certainly not the "sausage fingers" my grandfather the logger had, and I've struggled at times with vehicles that seemed to have 1M physical buttons the same diameter as a pencil. OTOH, I enjoy some of the larger touchscreen icons that are 3-4"/side.

Quote (What can go wrong?)

The old joke, "What can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong,..."

Dik

Regarding the book, 'Design of everyday things' the two examples in the book of the phone menus and the refrigerator controls have stuck with me for some *checking* almost 30 years now.

Hi moon161;
For those of us who don't have a copy of the book, can you provide a snippet?

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

Yes. IIRC the book was not so much about engineering design as design for peoples requirements (of everyday things, no doubt).

Phone example: The phone example was of a bad user interface on a touch tone phone, or if not horrible, one that at least prevented several barriers to entry. I used the normal 12 button touch tone phone and a layered menu to access voice mail and other functions. Without any kind of visual display, I'm guessing a layered menu sucked a lot. Especially since I'm a messy desk sort of person I look for lots of top level/visual references. I've heard people like me score differently on object permanence (peek-a-boo) tests than people who file everything away.

The refrigerator example was about the two controls on the author's refrigerator and how they had perverse effects on what he wanted to happen based on how they were labelled. The main reason this sticks with me is to remind myself the compartments of a refrigerator are not independently controlled as the author thought when he had the problem. One control sets a thermostat wherever it is, upper or lower, to cycle the compressor and the other control restricts or opens the passage between the two. Good to understand when removing ice accumulation is the fix for just about every refrigerator problem I've had.

Controls that are necessary for operation of the vehicle while driving should be operable without looking at them. An acclimatisation period to a new vehicle perhaps is okay but a touch screen that has no tactile feel and a multi-function screen that could be doing something else with a different screen open at the moment of the driver wanting windshield wiper action is not okay.

Example, I know where the turn signal stalk is. I know whether it has a left or right turn actuated by feel without looking or hearing at anything. I know where the windshield wiper stalk is. If I need wiper or washer-squirter action NOW I know what to do to make that happen. I know where the headlight switch is, if I need lights-on NOW I know what to do to make that happen. No need to take eyes off the road.

Secondary controls where the action can be deferred are perhaps not so important, but when it comes to HVAC ... if I need windshield-defog, that's another thing I want to be able to do NOW without looking at the control. I'll tolerate having to take a quick glance to identify the button with the picture of a heated screen on it. That button is always in the same place, it never moves, it isn't on a touchscreen that might be in the midst of someone fooling around with some other function of the vehicle at the moment that I want defog.

Changing radio station is an action that can always be deferred ... but I (and lots of other people) still want an easy-to-reach, easy-to-use, always-in-the-same-place volume knob. (I'll put up with my current car's volume-plus and volume-minus buttons ... at least they're always in the same place and always have the same function.)

The bazillion-buttons situation that preceded touchscreens was of course not good, either - but the worst culprit for that was what used to be called the radio, which became radio+cassette, which kept getting more functions added to it to the point that it's now called "infotainment" and it's now impractical to control it with buttons (but I still want a physical volume knob). The concept of a touchscreen to operate that is fine, it's better than having a thousand individual buttons, and it's generally something that you don't immediately need to use while driving. If I enter a sudden rainstorm, I need wiper action NOW, changing the radio station can wait.

My infotainment radio has buttons on the steering wheel to control the volume and change the station presets up or down.
My truck has touch screen GPS built into the Infotainment center.
The touch screen is inoperable when the vehicle is moving.
However there is a button on the steering wheel that turns on the microphone for voice commands.
The whole control concept is pretty user friendly and safe.
Except for one thing that I find very distracting:
From time to time the infotainment center displays a warning that distracted driving can lead to accidents.
You can't watch the road and read the display.
That distracted driving display is the most stupidly distracting feature of the vehicle.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

Hard thing for me on the minivan, a 17 grand caravan is the hvac controls, except for the fan speed, they're near flush buttons that I just have to look down to locate.

Other car, an 82 benz 300TD, all the controls, you can locate and identify with the lights out (good thing, cause console lights are on the fixit list). No radio for the time being, cell phone on a handsfree.

Either car, the intermittent rate control is on the blinker lever.

2019 Camry - Everything that must be controlled now is a fixed stalk, button, dial, whatever, that I can operate without talking my eyes off the road. Changing the audio source can wait.

A quick glance to identify which button to press isn't *that* bad ... at least the button is always in the same place and always has the same function when pressed. That's not the case with a touchscreen.

My Chrysler van has the older/smaller version of Uconnect. You have to use the touchscreen (which means looking at it) to change what's playing, but certain critical functions are buttons, it has a physical volume knob, and it has redundant controls (physical buttons) on the steering wheel. A nice one is the "screen off/on" button ... a bright screen is distracting at night, one press of that button makes it go dark. It's a physical button - no digging through screens to find it.

Audio isn’t important, other than to turn it down. All driving functions, including defogging the windshield, must be doable entirely from muscle memory. No look, no think, just do. No touchscreen can ever get there.

Quote (davidbeach)

All driving functions, including defogging the windshield, must be doable entirely from muscle memory. No look, no think, just do.

Exactly. This is why, in my opinion, even the small driving controls should be standardized across all makes.

Regards,

Mike

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

Haptic feedback on touch screens is a thing:
https://www.theverge.com/ces/2017/1/5/14185134/tan...

But they still can't duplicate the solid division of empty space between buttons...

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com