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Technical Paper

Technical Paper

(OP)
Hi,

I'm trying to find the following Paper:

Islinger J. S., "Stress analysis and stress measurement for a swept back wing having ribs parallel to the airstream", McDonnel Aircraft Corp., Report 1127, April 1949.

There is someone who can help me for my research?...

thanks a lot to everybody!!..

RE: Technical Paper

If you can't find it on the web, then you probably need to ask McDonnell Douglas

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RE: Technical Paper

(OP)
thanks a lot, IRstuff...

I'll try to Boeing..

Antonio

RE: Technical Paper

surely there are more current references for this, than 1949 ?

RE: Technical Paper

anthony71...

The document You referenced is likely proprietary to the Boeing company [bought-out MDC ~1997].

Be VERY careful how, when, where, from-who, etc You get a copy. Boeing would be the only legal source for it: any other source is probably illigitimate and could get You [and a co-conspirator] into some deep legal trouble.

NOTE. The one exception... IF this document was the result of a NACA/NASA, FAA, etc contracted study, then the document would likely have a NACA/NASA/FAA/etc document number... and is probably available with minimal restrictions. Suggest searching DTIC, NASA, FAA etc websites for the exact document title... You might get lucky.

Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true.
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible.
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion"]
o Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist. [Picasso]

RE: Technical Paper

Hi Anthony71

You might try going to the Smithsonian Air and Space Udvar Hazy Center or any one of the 10+ National Archives centers. Wktaylor is correct but only to a certain point. You must be careful about proprietary documents. However, I can personally say there are literally hundreds if not thousands of OEM reports which are in the public domain. But (big but here), many of these reports can only be obtained by going personally to the Smithsonian or NARA to view them and obtain copies. Note, with NARA, you must be a registered researcher. I have spent years researching this and obtaining copies of 100% public domain copies of OEM reports primarily two support 2 books I am currently working on - a practical airframe structures book, and an airframe fatigue handbook. Both are for the practicing engineering, no theory development here. Anyways, I can tell you that those two organizations have hundreds of public reports on: aerodynamics, performance, stress analysis, fatigue analysis, testing, etc. for many many aircraft. One thing you must have plenty of: PATIENCE.

Good luck anthony71!

RE: Technical Paper

(OP)
Thanks a lot for all information, dear crackman.

I'll try to find it in Smithsonian and National Archive as You suggest. I'm interesting about Matrix Force Method applied to aircraft structures.

Please when Your books will be ready kindly contact me I'd like to buy it. I'm intersting in practical stress analysis of aircraft structures.

Thanks,
Antonio

RE: Technical Paper

Hi Crackman,

It is good to learn of your forthcoming books. Coming from the "coal face", so to speak, they should be invaluable.
Any idea when they will be published?

Regards,

Andries

RE: Technical Paper

Crackman, if what you say is true - and I have no reason to believe it is not - the hording of this data in archives is troubling.

RE: Technical Paper

Becoming a registered researcher just means providing ID and promising not to destroy the archived documents: http://www.archives.gov/research/start/researcher-...

Information isn't being hoarded, anyone can go look at it. No-one has yet spent tax dollars scanning all of the millions of documents.

Matt

RE: Technical Paper

I don't think that this is any kind of deliberate hording. As with all government agencies, after a certain number of years, data is sent for storage (ie remember last scene in raiders of the lost ark). I remember many years ago when I worked for the air force that we sent hundreds if not thousands of reports to long term storage once they were no longer required due to storage issues. If you look into NARA, they house millions of documents from all over the country. The draw back to such a systems is that it takes time to locate and retrieve particularly when a large portion is not scanned in. However, at least, we can be assured the information is stored particularly when a good portion of it is historical.

Anyways, if you have some time, skim through the nara site and you will be amazed at some of the items you will find, it just takes time.

Good luck

RE: Technical Paper

Hoarding or not, I would still be concerned about the paper archives in the hands of a government archive. If they aren't being scanned or stored in some permanent form, you can expect them to be lost within a few decades.
And I don't mean by accident, neglect, or decay. I won't pretend to know what is and isn't happening in libraries and archives in the USA, but I can tell you what's happening in Canada. There is a lot of pressure on governments to cut costs, and libraries are seen in less and less esteem. A growing pattern of records destruction has been happening in this country, Canada, and it may extend to the USA, if it's not already there. Most deserving of the target is scientific documents, though they currently tend to be ecological, natural, and agricultural research. There are pure-science research facilities getting the axe, and their print libraries go into the dumpster too. If the documents were popular enough to deserve scanning, then they may be preserved. If not...

STF

RE: Technical Paper

Guys...

A CLASSIC example why data needs to be archived in a government or industry archive with limited access...

Drawings/data for Saturn V, Apollo, Apollo-SM and the LM were never treated as national treasures in the early 1970s. In Fact, drawing revisions, especially for each of the hand-made LMs were fast-furious. After the moon-shot program NASA ran-out of budget... and failed to properly archive/store at least one copy of the analysis and each drawing. The companies that had these 'government owned drawings and data' were reluctant to store them for a host of reasons, not the least of which was physical archive space, massive personnel layoffs and massive funding cuts. A lot of this data was lost to the trash-heaps/burn-bins... although some data were scrounged by employees who dug them out of trash bins as souvenirs... and are the only copies remaining. So few drawings and so little analysis/test-data is available today that it would be impossible to build a new Saturn V or LM or Apollo... unless one of more of the existing museum-pieces was totally disassembled and reverse engineered. Essentially all the lessons learned, and technical history from that amazing program is gone, due to bean-counter cost savings.

Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true.
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible.
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion"]
o Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist. [Picasso]

RE: Technical Paper

wktaylor- That is a very interesting example you bring up about the Saturn V.

From '96 to '02 I worked at Rockwell/Boeing in mechanical systems design for the Shuttle. The stress guy that signed off on much of my work was an old-timer that worked on the S-II program at North American. In his office there were bookcases full of binders containing all the original hand calcs he had made going all the way back to the S-II program. What was even more impressive is that if you asked him a question about something he did 20 or 30 years prior, he knew exactly where to find the information. All the engineers assigned to the Shuttle program were transferred from the Rockwell Downey plant to the Boeing plant in Huntington Beach around '99. The stress analyst retired a short time later, but I'm sure the binders containing thousands of pages of hand calcs he produced for programs like S-II and Shuttle are still stored somewhere in a Boeing facility.

More recently, I worked on design of the LH2/LOx ducts for the SLS 1st stage. The company I worked at designed and manufactured much of the ducting for the Saturn V back in the 60's. None of the engineers involved with the Saturn V program were still around, but they had copies of every drawing/ECN/analysis/test report/etc they delivered to the customer. There were quite a few young engineering grads hired to work on the SLS program, and it was nice to see that management encouraged them to study and learn from what had been done on previous programs like Saturn V and Shuttle.

RE: Technical Paper

Will and tbuelna

I totally agree with both of you especially in todays environment. Most aerospace managers/executives have no background in aerospace and could care less about the data...until its needed! Years ago at one of the OEMs I worked at I was in charge of the service liaison group. We had a large warehouse full of original historical data (aircraft drawings and reports dating back to the 1920s) and it cost quite a pretty penny to upkeep. Finally our plant manager calls me in and blames me for the overhead for the upkeep of the data and mandates that all the data be moved to a much cheaper facility. This ok to this point. However, he then states that we need to keep moving it so that with each move more data will be lost and so the cost will go down and eventually all data will be gotten rid of! This is why our industry has changed so much in the past 20 years. We have executives who have no business managing within the aerospace industry. As a last note, the "executive" decided what was pertinent to keep and what was not and told us to trash all other copies. We filled more than 2 giant trash containers full of data within a day to lighten the load.

Anyways, no matter how tedious we might think obtaining data from our government archives, we can at least be reassured that at least some of our country's finest ideas, engineering, and creations are preserved for a future generation. We can only hope that they care enough to research them.

RE: Technical Paper

tbuelna, all... Yeah...

I work on an old generation aircraft.

After a couple of major HQ relocations, I have seen first-hand how documents important to the aircraft development [tests, analysis, etc], and/or detail components/systems development have simply been lost. Even though the titles exist, there is no record of the full document in any repository.

Just a few years ago, I knew some of these documents/report folders existed in desks and cabinets of gray-haired engineers. When told to pack-up their stuff and submit it for archive, they did exactly that; then some of the boxes were picked-up by a middle-manager eager to clean-out the 'old-stuff', and save archiving \$s. After randomly checking a few boxes, that manager decided to summarily dump box-upon-box into the secure trash bins. One individual that I’m aware of was extremely angry when they learned of this house-cleaning; however, the manager issued the older employee a letter-of-warning regarding insubordination and lack of cooperation; and the manager finished the dumping jobin the late PM [after hours].

A LOT of these old documents explain, clearly, WHY something was done and have supporting data and notes. NOT SO TODAY: due to cost cutting and short budgets, analysis is dry and free of excess verbiage; and minimal explanations for future reference.

Unfortunately, my company as-a-whole is dedicated to new generation aircraft production, so the lessons-learned in the 1960s and 1970s are ‘moot’ and un-interesting to new engineers.

Right now I am faced with a quandary: fastener evolution for the sake of new aircraft production. Since we deal with old jets; new generation parts are NOT 100% compatible with the philosophy that our jets were built by… and that the old generation parts were fully suited for… but were failing [breaking] on new generation acft. Just as our old parts are structurally unsuitable for new jets, changing to the parts intended for new generation acft could compromise structural integrity for our old jets. Uhhhgggh.

Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true.
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible.
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion"]
o Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist. [Picasso]

RE: Technical Paper

Actually, I was pointing at the gov't archives of scientific/technical knowledge, not so much industry's. Some of the previous comments sounded like "it's a good thing there are government funded libraries to hold on to this old data". Well, yes, but only to a certain point. Government priorities change, too.

Everyone is under cost pressure, in industry and government. Then there are the MBA's who "took a class in management accountability", whoever they work for.
Here is what is happening to Canada's government research labs:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/blog/federal-programs-and-...
http://www.macleans.ca/tag/national-research-counc...

Of course, it's just bad in industry; all industries. The pain of low oil prices is causing many companies to lay off people in Western Canada (as they are in other parts of the world), leading to loss of corporate knowledge and the "curators" of company databases, libraries, and collections of references that would be valuable - if only there was work to put it to.

My experience with the corporate world is that knowledge is what you learned in school, and everything else is just today's job. Well, that's not fair to say about all of them - one company has scanned many of their drawings going back to the 1980's. Another guy I worked for collected all the drawings and reports he could from several engineers as they retired, and later put some of it to use on several occasions. People dedicated to keeping track of where their knowledge came from, and really understanding a subject thoroughly are very rare, and usually undervalued.

STF

RE: Technical Paper

I'm mostly a small government guy, but I do feel the federal government is a good choice for compiling, maintaining, and making available technical resources produced using taxpayer funds. Most federal agencies involved in basic research make their work, and the work of their contractors, available to the public in most cases. While I would question the value provided to taxpayers for much of this research spending, I don't think the federal government is doing a poor job making the information produced available to the public.

RE: Technical Paper

Anthony71,

To get back to your query, you mention that you are interested in the matrix force method of structural analysis.
Unfortunately this approach is not much used these days and all FE programs, such as MSC Nastran are displacement-based.
I think the reason is that the displacement approach is simpler to code since in the force method the user must define the redundancies
(the statically-indeterminate unknown internal loads). This is unfortunate since the force method leads directly to the required internal loads,
in contrast with the displacement method where they are calculated via the unknown displcements.

If you are interested in reading up on the force method there are three classic books:

Theory of Matrix Structural Analysis by J.S. Przemienicki (available in Dover edition).

Energy Theorems and Structural Analysis, by J.H. Argyris and S. Kelsey

Modern Fuselage Analysis and the Elastic Aircraft, also by Argyris and Kelsey.

Try Abe Books for the last two.

Be aware though, that Modern Fuselage Analysis is not for the faint-hearted!

If you Google with key words such as "airframe structural analysis" you may come across older papers on the force method; this has been my experience.

All the best.

Andries

RE: Technical Paper

(OP)
Andries,

thanks a lot for your post. I think that Force Method is a very good tool for structural analysis, in particular for "quick look analysis" in aircraft structures. I read a lot of work of Dr. Robinson (in particular The Rank Force Method).
I have all the books that you kindly suggest to me in your post. All very nice!!..I contact Dr. J.S. Przemienicki, because he also has wrote an interesting paper about the fuselage structural analysis (before the great work of Argyris-Kelsey), named "Matrix Analysis of Shell Structures with Flexible Frames", which method has been applied to fuselage of Bristol Airplane Company Type 188, for load path definition. I ask him the possibility to see the detail work about the application with a more complex example in the doc. "Matrix Analysis of Fuselage Structures", Bristol Aircraft Ltd, England, Tech. Rept. TOR 104, 1957. But unfourtunaly he doesn't have it. I tried also to have another work of Dr. Przemienicki and of Dr. Denke for Douglas Aricraft about Substructure Method with Matrix Force Method
The paper of Dr. Islinger is important for my studies for swept covers in particular for wing structures application (I see the work of Dr. Schmitt in Bruhn A22 where the paper of Dr. Islinger is cited in reference, and the great work of Wehle and Lansing of Grumman Aerospace).
I hope to find something about the this subject.
Thanks to everybody for all help and also for all post...all so interesting (about the organization of stress office!!)..it is a pleasure to read it!!..
Antonio

RE: Technical Paper

anthony71

With the added information you posted regarding the Bristol Aircraft Ltd, I can suggest the following. I would recommend you contact the National Aerospace Library and if you are in the area I highly recommend visiting them. They have a very large library of data including original OEM data dating back to the early 20th century. I was able to obtain copies of some very rare documents with their assistance and the staff was very helpful. I visited them a few years ago as part of my research and spent a most fruitful day locating some data which I had thought otherwise unobtainable. Note the data is not electronic and you must pay for reproduction. However the staff is excellently qualified and if it exists in their library, they will be able to locate it.Here is their address:

National Aerospace Library,
The Hub,
Fowler Avenue,
IQ Farnborough,
FARNBOROUGH,
Hampshire,
GU14 7JP

good luck

RE: Technical Paper

anthony71- My first engineering job back in the early 80's was with McDonnell-Douglas in Huntington Beach, CA. At that time there was an actual technical library located within the plant with real books that you could check out. You could also obtain a hard copy of any technical document in the company archives. All you had to do was fill out a request and the librarian would locate it and get a copy for you.

I'm sure if you contact the Boeing (McDonnell-Douglas) technical library in St. Louis and explain that you need a copy of the Islinger paper for your academic studies, they'd be quite happy to provide a copy, assuming it exists in their archives.

RE: Technical Paper

By Googling "Wing Redundant Structure Analysis Methods" I came across the following reports on applications of the Force Method:

2. "The Matrix Force Method of Structural Analysis and Some New Applications" by Argyris and Kelsey, ARC R & M No. 3034. Downloadable from Cranfield site.

Andries

RE: Technical Paper

(OP)
Crackman,

thanks a lot for your post. I know the National Aerospace Library and I agree with you, the staff is excellent under all aspects. I live in Venice (Italy) so for me it is not easy to visit it, but with the support of stuff I obtain a lot of old papers and documents (just for example 2 paperes of Dr. Eggwertz about numerical structural solution and test of a swept wing, and a paper of Dr. Carpenter Boeing and application of Argyris Method of Fuselage Structural Analysis under thermal loads), important for my studies. Unfortunately the paper "Matrix Analysis of Fuselage Structures", Bristol Aircraft Ltd, is not present in Library. I try also with Bristol Airplane Heritage and with BAE Heritage, but nothing. I try to contact Prof. Glyn Davies (Imperial College and author of great work "Virtual Work in Structural Analysis) who has worked for Bristol Airplane, but no answer. I suppost that this valuable document has been lost definitively. Any other suggests are very welcome.
Thanks very much!!!...

Tbuelna,

thanks a lot for your suggest. I try to explain to Boeing stuff all about my reaserach and I hope they could help me.
Thanks very much!!!..

Andries,

thanks a lot for all help. I have also this two papers. I have studied it two years ago...very interesting..
Papers of Pr. Argyris are all undoubtedly milestone of Finte Element.
It is also a pleasure for me to read about the life of this man, I have the book "Early Fem poineers" of Dr. Robinson (the only regret is that the book lacks his own biography)...

Thanks a lot to all for the help...and for me it a pleasure to ave the possibility to talk with people who love this subject!!..

RE: Technical Paper

anthony71

I will look and see if any of my contacts and resources can locate it. By the way, di origine sono di trieste pero sono piu di trent'anni che abito qui in America. I miei parenti sono ancora in italia e viaggio un paio di volte a l'anno a trovarli. Ho parecchi collegamenti in italia col lavoro e in particolare con delle ricerche che al momento sto svolgendo. Comunque ti augoro buona fortuna e vedro se ti posso aiutare.

Good luck

RE: Technical Paper

(OP)
Crackman,

thanks a lot for all help.

Grazie davvero per tutto l'aiuto. Conosco la zona di Trieste, ho avuto diversi colleghi e collaboratori della zona. Io non sono mai stato in America, anche se ho collaborato per diversi anni con grandi Aziende americane aeronautiche, a Venezia. Molti miei colleghi sono stati lì. Da qualche anno sono in contatto anche con l'Università di Torino, Dipartimento Aerospaziale. Ho da poco terminato un corso aziendale (in collaborazione proprio con l'Università di Torino) sulla Fatica e sui compositi (teoria e applicazioni FEM).
Mi piacerebbe davvero tanto rimanere in contatto con te, sarebbe un vero piacere.

Grazie ancora e spero di sentirci prestissimo,
Antonio

RE: Technical Paper

Hi Anthoni 71 :

"Unfortunately the paper "Matrix Analysis of Fuselage Structures", Bristol Aircraft Ltd, is not present in Library." you said.

Try to find the book " Modern Fuselage Analisis , J.H.Agyris,Sydney Kelsey " it may help you in your yob
( Many,Many years ago I read the book )

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Fuselage-Analysis-Ela...

Best regards

RE: Technical Paper

(OP)
Hi mohr,

Thanks a lot for your suggestion..
I've the book: J. H. Argyris, S. Kelsey "Modern Fuselage Analysis and Elastic Aircraft" and it is a great work!! Perfect suitable for digital computer application. Inside this book is cited the work of Dr. Przemienicki "Matrix Analysis of Shell Structures with Flexible Frames" (that I've obtained with the excellent work of the personal of National Aerospace Library) as reference and Argyris-Kelsey wrote that the work of Przemienicki has some limitations: fuselage not tapered, singly connected ring/frame, manual formation of b0 and b1 matrix, some matrix condition problems for symmetrical and antisymmetrical systems. So would be, for me, very intersting to find the application of complex example application of the method of Dr. Przemienicki.
I know that the Boeing Program FUSARG is based on the work of Argyris-Kelsey (ref. Carpenter "DEVELOPMENT OF THERMALLY INDUCED INITIAL DISPLACEMENT MATRICES FOR THE FUSELAGE ANALYSIS PROGRAM", and "Analysis of the B747 Aircraft Wing-Body Intersection" Hansen, Connacher, Dougherty, Anderton) and I hope to find more details about the application of the method in Boeing.
I read also a paper of Dr. H. Kamel "Automatic Analysis of Fuselages and Problems of Conditioning" of Static and Dynamic Institute of Stuttgart, an intteresting evolution of the work of Argyris-Kelsey (utilization of so-called super-matrix).

Thanks again for all,
Antonio

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