Technical Paper 1

[anthony71]

Hi,

I'm trying to find the following Paper:

Islinger J. S., "Stress analysis and stress measurement for a swept back wing having ribs parallel to the airstream", McDonnel Aircraft Corp., Report 1127, April 1949.

There is someone who can help me for my research?...

thanks a lot to everybody!!..

 

[IRstuff]

If you can't find it on the web, then you probably need to ask McDonnell Douglas

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529


Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com:

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

 

[anthony71]

thanks a lot, IRstuff...

I'll try to Boeing..

Antonio

 

[rb1957]

surely there are more current references for this, than 1949 ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

 

[WKTaylor]

anthony71...

The document You referenced is likely proprietary to the Boeing company [bought-out MDC ~1997].

Be VERY careful how, when, where, from-who, etc You get a copy. Boeing would be the only legal source for it: any other source is probably illigitimate and could get You [and a co-conspirator] into some deep legal trouble.

NOTE. The one exception... IF this document was the result of a NACA/NASA, FAA, etc contracted study, then the document would likely have a NACA/NASA/FAA/etc document number... and is probably available with minimal restrictions. Suggest searching DTIC, NASA, FAA etc websites for the exact document title... You might get lucky.

Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true.
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible.
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion"]
o Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist. [Picasso]

 

[crackman]

Hi Anthony71

You might try going to the Smithsonian Air and Space Udvar Hazy Center or any one of the 10+ National Archives centers. Wktaylor is correct but only to a certain point. You must be careful about proprietary documents. However, I can personally say there are literally hundreds if not thousands of OEM reports which are in the public domain. But (big but here), many of these reports can only be obtained by going personally to the Smithsonian or NARA to view them and obtain copies. Note, with NARA, you must be a registered researcher. I have spent years researching this and obtaining copies of 100% public domain copies of OEM reports primarily two support 2 books I am currently working on - a practical airframe structures book, and an airframe fatigue handbook. Both are for the practicing engineering, no theory development here. Anyways, I can tell you that those two organizations have hundreds of public reports on: aerodynamics, performance, stress analysis, fatigue analysis, testing, etc. for many many aircraft. One thing you must have plenty of: PATIENCE.

Good luck anthony71!

 

[anthony71]

Thanks a lot for all information, dear crackman.

I'll try to find it in Smithsonian and National Archive as You suggest. I'm interesting about Matrix Force Method applied to aircraft structures.

Please when Your books will be ready kindly contact me I'd like to buy it. I'm intersting in practical stress analysis of aircraft structures.

Thanks,
Antonio

 

[Andries]

Hi Crackman,

It is good to learn of your forthcoming books. Coming from the "coal face", so to speak, they should be invaluable.
Any idea when they will be published?

Regards,

Andries

 

[SAITAETGrad]

Crackman, if what you say is true - and I have no reason to believe it is not - the hording of this data in archives is troubling.

 

[mbt22]

Becoming a registered researcher just means providing ID and promising not to destroy the archived documents:

http://www.archives.gov/research/start/researcher-card.html

Information isn't being hoarded, anyone can go look at it. No-one has yet spent tax dollars scanning all of the millions of documents.

Matt

 

[KENAT]

SAITAETGrad - if it weren't for that 'hoarding' I suspect much of this stuff would have been disposed of in the trash several mergers, bankruptcy's & office moves ago by their various originators.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[crackman]

SAITAETGrad

I don't think that this is any kind of deliberate hording. As with all government agencies, after a certain number of years, data is sent for storage (ie remember last scene in raiders of the lost ark). I remember many years ago when I worked for the air force that we sent hundreds if not thousands of reports to long term storage once they were no longer required due to storage issues. If you look into NARA, they house millions of documents from all over the country. The draw back to such a systems is that it takes time to locate and retrieve particularly when a large portion is not scanned in. However, at least, we can be assured the information is stored particularly when a good portion of it is historical.

Anyways, if you have some time, skim through the nara site and you will be amazed at some of the items you will find, it just takes time.

Good luck

 

[Sparweb]

Hoarding or not, I would still be concerned about the paper archives in the hands of a government archive. If they aren't being scanned or stored in some permanent form, you can expect them to be lost within a few decades.
And I don't mean by accident, neglect, or decay. I won't pretend to know what is and isn't happening in libraries and archives in the USA, but I can tell you what's happening in Canada. There is a lot of pressure on governments to cut costs, and libraries are seen in less and less esteem. A growing pattern of records destruction has been happening in this country, Canada, and it may extend to the USA, if it's not already there. Most deserving of the target is scientific documents, though they currently tend to be ecological, natural, and agricultural research. There are pure-science research facilities getting the axe, and their print libraries go into the dumpster too. If the documents were popular enough to deserve scanning, then they may be preserved. If not...



STF

 

[KENAT]

SparWeb - please do tell who'se doing it better than the government.

Certainly private industry already dumped a lot of theirs - I know from experience.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[WKTaylor]

Guys...

A CLASSIC example why data needs to be archived in a government or industry archive with limited access...

Drawings/data for Saturn V, Apollo, Apollo-SM and the LM were never treated as national treasures in the early 1970s. In Fact, drawing revisions, especially for each of the hand-made LMs were fast-furious. After the moon-shot program NASA ran-out of budget... and failed to properly archive/store at least one copy of the analysis and each drawing. The companies that had these 'government owned drawings and data' were reluctant to store them for a host of reasons, not the least of which was physical archive space, massive personnel layoffs and massive funding cuts. A lot of this data was lost to the trash-heaps/burn-bins... although some data were scrounged by employees who dug them out of trash bins as souvenirs... and are the only copies remaining. So few drawings and so little analysis/test-data is available today that it would be impossible to build a new Saturn V or LM or Apollo... unless one of more of the existing museum-pieces was totally disassembled and reverse engineered. Essentially all the lessons learned, and technical history from that amazing program is gone, due to bean-counter cost savings.


Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true.
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible.
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion"]
o Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist. [Picasso]

 

[tbuelna]

wktaylor- That is a very interesting example you bring up about the Saturn V.

From '96 to '02 I worked at Rockwell/Boeing in mechanical systems design for the Shuttle. The stress guy that signed off on much of my work was an old-timer that worked on the S-II program at North American. In his office there were bookcases full of binders containing all the original hand calcs he had made going all the way back to the S-II program. What was even more impressive is that if you asked him a question about something he did 20 or 30 years prior, he knew exactly where to find the information. All the engineers assigned to the Shuttle program were transferred from the Rockwell Downey plant to the Boeing plant in Huntington Beach around '99. The stress analyst retired a short time later, but I'm sure the binders containing thousands of pages of hand calcs he produced for programs like S-II and Shuttle are still stored somewhere in a Boeing facility.

More recently, I worked on design of the LH2/LOx ducts for the SLS 1st stage. The company I worked at designed and manufactured much of the ducting for the Saturn V back in the 60's. None of the engineers involved with the Saturn V program were still around, but they had copies of every drawing/ECN/analysis/test report/etc they delivered to the customer. There were quite a few young engineering grads hired to work on the SLS program, and it was nice to see that management encouraged them to study and learn from what had been done on previous programs like Saturn V and Shuttle.

 

[crackman]

Will and tbuelna

I totally agree with both of you especially in todays environment. Most aerospace managers/executives have no background in aerospace and could care less about the data...until its needed! Years ago at one of the OEMs I worked at I was in charge of the service liaison group. We had a large warehouse full of original historical data (aircraft drawings and reports dating back to the 1920s) and it cost quite a pretty penny to upkeep. Finally our plant manager calls me in and blames me for the overhead for the upkeep of the data and mandates that all the data be moved to a much cheaper facility. This ok to this point. However, he then states that we need to keep moving it so that with each move more data will be lost and so the cost will go down and eventually all data will be gotten rid of! This is why our industry has changed so much in the past 20 years. We have executives who have no business managing within the aerospace industry. As a last note, the "executive" decided what was pertinent to keep and what was not and told us to trash all other copies. We filled more than 2 giant trash containers full of data within a day to lighten the load.

Anyways, no matter how tedious we might think obtaining data from our government archives, we can at least be reassured that at least some of our country's finest ideas, engineering, and creations are preserved for a future generation. We can only hope that they care enough to research them.

 

[WKTaylor]

tbuelna, all... Yeah...

I work on an old generation aircraft.

After a couple of major HQ relocations, I have seen first-hand how documents important to the aircraft development [tests, analysis, etc], and/or detail components/systems development have simply been lost. Even though the titles exist, there is no record of the full document in any repository.

Just a few years ago, I knew some of these documents/report folders existed in desks and cabinets of gray-haired engineers. When told to pack-up their stuff and submit it for archive, they did exactly that; then some of the boxes were picked-up by a middle-manager eager to clean-out the 'old-stuff', and save archiving $$$s. After randomly checking a few boxes, that manager decided to summarily dump box-upon-box into the secure trash bins. One individual that I’m aware of was extremely angry when they learned of this house-cleaning; however, the manager issued the older employee a letter-of-warning regarding insubordination and lack of cooperation; and the manager finished the dumping jobin the late PM [after hours].

A LOT of these old documents explain, clearly, WHY something was done and have supporting data and notes. NOT SO TODAY: due to cost cutting and short budgets, analysis is dry and free of excess verbiage; and minimal explanations for future reference.

Unfortunately, my company as-a-whole is dedicated to new generation aircraft production, so the lessons-learned in the 1960s and 1970s are ‘moot’ and un-interesting to new engineers.

Right now I am faced with a quandary: fastener evolution for the sake of new aircraft production. Since we deal with old jets; new generation parts are NOT 100% compatible with the philosophy that our jets were built by… and that the old generation parts were fully suited for… but were failing [breaking] on new generation acft. Just as our old parts are structurally unsuitable for new jets, changing to the parts intended for new generation acft could compromise structural integrity for our old jets. Uhhhgggh.


Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true.
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible.
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion"]
o Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist. [Picasso]

 

[Sparweb]

Actually, I was pointing at the gov't archives of scientific/technical knowledge, not so much industry's. Some of the previous comments sounded like "it's a good thing there are government funded libraries to hold on to this old data". Well, yes, but only to a certain point. Government priorities change, too.

Everyone is under cost pressure, in industry and government. Then there are the MBA's who "took a class in management accountability", whoever they work for.
Here is what is happening to Canada's government research labs:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/blog/federa...facilities-that-have-been-shut-down-or-had-th

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ts-science-at-every-turn-union-says-1.3199761

http://www.macleans.ca/tag/national-research-council/

Of course, it's just bad in industry; all industries. The pain of low oil prices is causing many companies to lay off people in Western Canada (as they are in other parts of the world), leading to loss of corporate knowledge and the "curators" of company databases, libraries, and collections of references that would be valuable - if only there was work to put it to.

My experience with the corporate world is that knowledge is what you learned in school, and everything else is just today's job. Well, that's not fair to say about all of them - one company has scanned many of their drawings going back to the 1980's. Another guy I worked for collected all the drawings and reports he could from several engineers as they retired, and later put some of it to use on several occasions. People dedicated to keeping track of where their knowledge came from, and really understanding a subject thoroughly are very rare, and usually undervalued.


STF

 

[KENAT]

So the point remains, as bad a job as government is doing of it, it's probably better than anyone else. (Perhaps depening on where you count the academic community who are largely government funded.)

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​