when do you go to the state board 1

[AlpineEngineer]

So I came upon a structural planset from an engineer that was stamped for a 135mph exp B wind speed. The planset was an internet plan set which clearly said something like "lateral force resisting system designed by others". There was nothing in the planset addressing design for this wind speed. NOTHING. not a hold down, not a single requirement. This thing wouldn't meet the prescriptive reqmnts of the IRC. And it's no simple house, offset story walls, ect..

I have since uncovered more plansets with this same negligance. The building deparment says "hey, its stamped, we don't question the engineer".

Do I go to the state board?? I mean this is clearly a public safety and welfare issue. If I don't report it I feel it would be negligant on my part. Do you know if board complaints are anonymous? The last thing I want is to start a spat with this fellow.

 

[sigma1]

I know how you feel. I have come across the same problem on many occasions and there is not much I can do but pray that nothing will happens that will affect my work.

By the way - I dont think the reports are anonymous and for a good reason.

Good luck staying away from those

 

[AlpineEngineer]

sigma1, So are you saying you filed? What was the outcome?

 

[vandede427]

Are they house plans that you order off the internet?

 

[DaveAtkins]

In my state (Wisconsin), one and two family dwellings are not stamped by Registered Architects or Professional Engineers.

I think the rationale is that most residential structures are small, and have enough sheathing, to resist lateral loads.

Also, since you are talking about a private residence, this is not a public safety issue, in my opinion.

But every state is different, so my comments may not be valid for your case.

DaveAtkins

 

[Ron]

As a licensed engineer you are obligated by most state laws to report this. Engineers such as this degrade the profession and make the standards so low that it places the concept of licensing in jeopardy. Report it.

 

[civilperson]

If you can prove it deficient with calculations in a court of law and can afford a counter suit from the author of the deficient plans then go ahead and file a complaint.

 

[Ron]

Going to the state board to file a complaint does not necessarily open you to liability, unless the claim is frivolous, libelous, or slanderous. Most state boards take complaints, investigate the merit of the complaint, then take action as THEY deem appropriate. You, as the complainant, do not have a say in the matter beyond alerting the board to an errant practice.

 

[RWF7437]

In Oregon....

"General Information

Oregon law charges the Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying (OSBEELS) with carefully investigating any complaints or information relating to violations of the Oregon Revised Statutes (ORS) 672.002 to 672.325 and the Oregon Administrative Rules (OAR, Chapter 820). The Regulation Department of OSBEELS receives, tracks, and investigates complaints and presents findings to the Law Enforcement Committee (LEC) for recommendations to the Board.

In accordance with ORS 672.210; in particular subsection 1 and OAR 820-015-0010; in particular subsections 1 and 2, anyone (complainant) may submit a complaint against any individual, including a registrant. OSBEELS also accepts anonymous complaints. Additionally, ORS 672.210; in particular subsection 1 states that OSBEELS may initiate its own compliant against a person. The Board represents the public welfare as a whole, not the complainant as in an attorney client relationship.

Complaint Process

Upon receipt of a complaint form or other written information against an applicant, registrant or another person (respondent), the Regulation Department staff will conduct a preliminary review to establish that there is sufficient evidence to justify proceeding and whether the allegations against the respondent are such that, if proven, would result in a penalty or sanction.

The complainant's role is to provide OSBEELS with any relevant information or documentation pertaining to the complaint. Circumstances may arise when the anonymity of a complainant makes it difficult to proceed in a case due to insufficient evidence to support actions that may be in violation. Therefore, if filing an anonymous complaint, it is important for the complainant to provide clear and specific information in relation to the alleged violation(s) of the respondent.

If the complaint is considered valid, the respondent will be notified of the allegations by mail and written comments will be requested. As part of the investigation process, the Regulation Department staff may seek additional responses from the respondent, request a review of the matter by professionals with relevant experience (expert reviewer(s)), and/or ask for legal review from OSBEELS' Assistant Attorney General. All relevant information is compiled and presented to the LEC, during a scheduled meeting, for determination. The determination results in an “action” or “no action.” An “action” consists of a notice of intent, additional investigation, or expert reviewer(s). A “no action” consists of closing the case.

Depending on the result of an investigation, a case may not be subject to a disciplinary action. However, if the LEC determines that there are sufficient facts and legal grounds to proceed, it will direct the Regulation Department staff or the OSBEELS' Assistant Attorney General to prepare a notice of intent for disciplinary action. Such notices are governed by the Oregon Administrative Procedures Act, namely the ORS 183.415. The notice of intent is a formal notice sent to the respondent, stating the actions that are in violation of OSBEELS regulatory authority, a proposed disciplinary action, and informs the respondent of their rights to a hearing. Additionally, complainants may be requested to provide testimony for the case."

 

[AlpineEngineer]

Thanks guys. I looked at my state statutes and I have a professional and ethical obligation to report it or I could loose my license. I am not thrilled about it but I'll do what I know is right and let the chips fall where they may.
thanks again.

 

[EddyC]

Maybe the house hasn't been built yet, so perhaps you could contact the engineer and let him/her know about your concerns? Maybe they will then address the problems that you discovered and perhaps even be grateful?

 

[msquared48]

EddyC:

I wouldn't do that without running some of my own numbers for backup as I could see a professional suit for slander developing over underminimng his relationship with a client. I realize this seems weak, but I do not like to cross even a vaguely perceived line here.

On another, lighter side though, the statement was made by AlpineEngineer that "The building deparment says "hey, its stamped, we don't question the engineer"." These guys are really behind the times here legally and are really opening themselves up to litigation. Personally, I like the attitude as that is wqhat I grew up with initially - respect - which we all lack now. That being said, there is a lot of room for education here by their corporation counsel.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[RWF7437]

Have you tried "empathy" ?

 

[Ron]

Mike,
Unfortunately most building departments enjoy a variation of sovereign immunity....awfully difficult to sue them for negligence or incompetence, both of which are seen all too often.

Ron

 

[dik]

I'm a bit of a wuss... but, I'd call the other engineer prior to reporting it and give him an opportunity to remedy this.

Dik

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Legal liability questions like this sometimes make my head spin. But, if it were me I would do the following:

1) Ask myself if I have enough expertise in this EXACT type of structure to know beyond any reasonable doubt that this is a safety issue.

2) Make copies of what I have seen and ask the professionals involved how these plans could be issues like this. That means the plan check department (as you have alredy done). But, I'd also contact the engineer himself.

3) When contacting the engineer, I would specifically state that I have want (in my opinion) could be a public safet question about one of his designs. Before I reported the issue to the Board of engineers, I wanted to get his (or her) opinion on my concerns.... just to make sure that I'm not being overly reactionary. Actually, it is a means of professional courtesy.

 

[ash060]

Talking to the other engineer would be a courtesy because maybe he/she just made a mistake no matter how large.

I feel that as engineers we should support each other and get things done without involving outside entities. I mean I would certainly like a call about a possible mistake I made from another engineer so that I can remedy it and will catch in the future. Nobody is perfect.

Building officals and other non-engineers should not question the engineer's seal because that is what keeps us in business and it provides them with a certain comfort level that someone who knows what they are doing has designed it (even if that is not the case). If an engineers' seals were constantly questioned, it could end up being seen as not necessary to have licensed engineers and that could open the floodgates and allow many more unqualified people to practice engineering which none of us want to see.

In my state the penalties that can be imposed on engineers are very severe, and costly. I would consider referring something to the board only as a last resort.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Your situation is probably more serious. But, I would always give the engineer the benefit of the doubt.... or the professional courtesy to contact him privately before going to the board.

I remember being in a situation where I stamped a drawing for a house re-model that I didn't think had a sound load path for the lateral system. My rationale was that I was doing a simple beam-post gravity system that didn't touch the lateral system in any way.

While I explained my concerns to the client and contractor (and gave them a quick sketch on some cheap ways to improve the load path) I did not feel that it was appropriate for me to put these in the stamped construction documents.

I've often thought that if an EQuake hits and the building is damaged because of lateral drift, then someone could contact the board about my design. Either that or sue me personally. After all, I was the only engineer in the last 40 years to stamp a drawing for that house.

It's issues like this that make me stay away from residential construction.

 

[sundale]

The state PE Boards always beg the responsibility of reporting "bad" engineering onto their licensees. One surveyor I used to work with called this the "Rat Law". I can see the rational behind this requirement and as a condition of PE licensure, we are required to report the egregious engineering law violations. However, I also believe that the PE Boards could perhaps do a better job of proactive enforcement, such as simply perusing the plans that are submitted to local building departments. How hard would that be?

The PE Board, not me, has the duty to enforce the licensure laws. Pontificating via statute that it is my duty and responsibility to help the PE Board enforce the licensure laws, when the PE Board itself (typically) does ZERO proactive enforcement effort has always bothered me. I will do my share, but I think the PE Boards could easily step up their efforts here to if they were really serious about this. A PE Board (typically) has reactive as opposed to proactive enforcement of the PE laws.

To the OP:
An internet plan set with 135 mph wind loading and no apparent lateral system or uplift hardware with a BS "designed by others" note is a "no brainer" to me. Calling this PE who is willing to do such an act will probably do nothing as he/she apparently has little respect for safety or the profession.

Report only the facts and make no conclusions to the PE Board and let them perform their own investigation and make their own determination. You are legally REQUIRED to to this and you are acting in good faith in the matter; there is no slander issue.

 

[IFRs]

Dear PE Board,
I found these on the internet and am sending them to you for review because while it includes a PE stamp it appears to lack provisions for resisting wind loads.
Sincerely
Concerned PE