Hi there, I wish to find out what pump would you guys recommend for a project i'm doing. I'm helping the natives in borneo get water. Problem is the from source (a stream) is 700 metres downhill on a 45degree incline. So i have to get the water 700 metres away on a 45 degree incline up to holding tanks, where it can be distributed to the village. I'm looking at a lot of pumps in the market but am not sure if they can actually make the distance. Mind you a holding tank half way wont cut it as it will go thru a dense rain forest. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also the natives told me they can deal with diesel generated pumps as it is still affordable for them. And hopefully a maintenance free pump solution as well. slight maintenance they can handle but i have my concerns.
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What pump should i use? 4
- Thread starter Noyz3e
- Start date
What is the vertical height from the source to the delivery point?
Is it 700 metres or is this the distance?
It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)
Is it 700 metres or is this the distance?
It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)
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1
- #3
danschwind
Mechanical
What is the desired flow rate?
I'd probably start my analysis with a multistage centrifugal, as this is either a 700m or 495m vertical height.
I'd probably start my analysis with a multistage centrifugal, as this is either a 700m or 495m vertical height.
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- #4
Noyze...
I suggest considering some kind of multi-stage submersible well pump at the bottom of the hill and an electric drive.
You must determine a reasonable flow rate (10gpm?)and also have a potable water tank at the top of the hill and calculate an accurate difference in elevation to determine the pump head.
Lets say the pump head is 500 meters ...
Your system will have the pump at the bottom of the hill with the tank (say 1000 gallons ?) at the top. The pump will be controlled by an on-off electrical switch near the tank at the top of the hill. The switch could be manual or float controlled. You will probably need a flexible PE piping system with appropriate shut-off and check valves. My guess is that a 2 to 3 inch pipe should work.... The size of all components should be calculated by a competent individual
You pump might look like this:
I believe that your diesel drive may be difficult to accomplish with any vertical submersible well pump. You may need to get a portable electric generator to power the pump.
I am sure that this well problem has been addressed before and a search of the internet may yield complete packaged systems ...
Anyone else ?
MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
I suggest considering some kind of multi-stage submersible well pump at the bottom of the hill and an electric drive.
You must determine a reasonable flow rate (10gpm?)and also have a potable water tank at the top of the hill and calculate an accurate difference in elevation to determine the pump head.
Lets say the pump head is 500 meters ...
Your system will have the pump at the bottom of the hill with the tank (say 1000 gallons ?) at the top. The pump will be controlled by an on-off electrical switch near the tank at the top of the hill. The switch could be manual or float controlled. You will probably need a flexible PE piping system with appropriate shut-off and check valves. My guess is that a 2 to 3 inch pipe should work.... The size of all components should be calculated by a competent individual
You pump might look like this:
I believe that your diesel drive may be difficult to accomplish with any vertical submersible well pump. You may need to get a portable electric generator to power the pump.
I am sure that this well problem has been addressed before and a search of the internet may yield complete packaged systems ...
Anyone else ?
MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
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1
- #5
LittleInch
Petroleum
I thought this was a repeat of this one , but is a much higher duty.
It's quite high pressure though - at between 50 and 70 bar at the base so you are realistically restricted to steel pipes, valves etc and for the water industry quite a high pressure pump. Also depending on your flowrate and pipe size you could add another 5-10 bar for friction and end tank height.
There is no such thing as a maintenance free pump, especially if you're drawing in raw unfiltered water.
But first you really need to estimate some sort of flowrate you need to achieve and how big your tank is going to be. Water usage tends to be very up and down so you need a decent sized tank to be able to even out the flows. But "village" is rather vague. And once water becomes available consumption might quadruple.
A direct diesel drive is possible but it all depends on the details (like flow...)
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
It's quite high pressure though - at between 50 and 70 bar at the base so you are realistically restricted to steel pipes, valves etc and for the water industry quite a high pressure pump. Also depending on your flowrate and pipe size you could add another 5-10 bar for friction and end tank height.
There is no such thing as a maintenance free pump, especially if you're drawing in raw unfiltered water.
But first you really need to estimate some sort of flowrate you need to achieve and how big your tank is going to be. Water usage tends to be very up and down so you need a decent sized tank to be able to even out the flows. But "village" is rather vague. And once water becomes available consumption might quadruple.
A direct diesel drive is possible but it all depends on the details (like flow...)
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
- Thread starter
- #6
OK Cool. Thanks for the answers. As for the bottom tank well its directly diverted from the source (a stream) so no real holding area for the water. Flow rate isnt that important as long as the water can reach the 700 meter climb to disperse into a holding tank, which will then be fed by gravity to the villagers. i'm trying to avoid steel pipes as there is no way to bring steel pipes into the jungle by road. We basically walk thru dense rainforest with PP pipes. SO it does take an effort.
Do you realise the pressure rating for your pipe work, depending on pipe diameter and flowrate and your static head, it could be up to 70 bar as already pointed out by LittleInch?
It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)
danschwind
Mechanical
Noyz3e,
Please do not install this pipe without evaluating its pressure rating first.
Unless there is some high-strength PP pipe out there, you will NOT be able to use it.
If flow rate isn't really that important, maybe you can reduce the pipe diameter by a lot and use threaded connections (far from ideal, but nothing here is ideal right?) and do the same thing as you would to your PP pipe.
Edit: by the way, in my first suggestion I was premising a quite high flow rate.
Please do not install this pipe without evaluating its pressure rating first.
Unless there is some high-strength PP pipe out there, you will NOT be able to use it.
If flow rate isn't really that important, maybe you can reduce the pipe diameter by a lot and use threaded connections (far from ideal, but nothing here is ideal right?) and do the same thing as you would to your PP pipe.
Edit: by the way, in my first suggestion I was premising a quite high flow rate.
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1
- #9
LittleInch
Petroleum
Noyz3e,
I'm not sure you're listening to us properly. Flowrate might seem like something that isn't important right now, but it is. As said once water becomes available the usage tends to go up to you need to add a certain factor to this and also flow is very variable throughout the day.
This will determine the size of your pipes and tanks and the amount of power you need.
It is a key building block to the design of this system.
Also PP just won't cut it for this sort of pressure. Your pipe might survive for a short while but would break shortly after. If you're trying to do this in one lift you will need steel or an expensive flexible solution.
Also why are pumping this up the hill. I though in Borneo most of the water fell out of the sky. Pumping it up a 500m or 700m high slope seems like a 1st world solution to a more basic question.
How do they get water now? Can you make it more efficient? Are there some other sources which aren't as low down the valley?
You've reached out for advice for something you clearly don't know much about which is great and what you're trying to do is great also, but you do need to listen to the advice coming back. There are many useful people here who can guide you and occasionally the answer might not be one you want, but that's life sometimes. There are always many ways to accomplish the same result
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
I'm not sure you're listening to us properly. Flowrate might seem like something that isn't important right now, but it is. As said once water becomes available the usage tends to go up to you need to add a certain factor to this and also flow is very variable throughout the day.
This will determine the size of your pipes and tanks and the amount of power you need.
It is a key building block to the design of this system.
Also PP just won't cut it for this sort of pressure. Your pipe might survive for a short while but would break shortly after. If you're trying to do this in one lift you will need steel or an expensive flexible solution.
Also why are pumping this up the hill. I though in Borneo most of the water fell out of the sky. Pumping it up a 500m or 700m high slope seems like a 1st world solution to a more basic question.
How do they get water now? Can you make it more efficient? Are there some other sources which aren't as low down the valley?
You've reached out for advice for something you clearly don't know much about which is great and what you're trying to do is great also, but you do need to listen to the advice coming back. There are many useful people here who can guide you and occasionally the answer might not be one you want, but that's life sometimes. There are always many ways to accomplish the same result
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
As I always do, I agree with LittleInch..
There very well may be a better way to get water to the top of the hill.
I would like to add to my comments above, that a "single lift" may not be the best way to get the water to the top of the hill.
An engineering study would be advisable including the evaluation of acceptable pipe materials, pressure rating of components, controls, power source and an evaluation of a mid-level tank and pumps.
MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
There very well may be a better way to get water to the top of the hill.
I would like to add to my comments above, that a "single lift" may not be the best way to get the water to the top of the hill.
An engineering study would be advisable including the evaluation of acceptable pipe materials, pressure rating of components, controls, power source and an evaluation of a mid-level tank and pumps.
MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
- Thread starter
- #11
OK understood, perhaps a secondary pool between source and village could be better, i'l have to re-visit the site again. The reason why the village is higher up than the source is that they were forced to move up higher as the dam which was built flooded their village down below, so moved up and the stream is down below which is the closest waster source. Currently, i've have been using 3inch to 4 inch pipes HDPE pipes 16 bar max pressure. Previously on another project, i've used the same pipes and they worked but that was downhill gravity fed it so pressure was no issue.
70bar.. over 1000psi. Wow!
This is a completely NON-trivial design. To have even a hope of making this work you need to provide:
Height the water must be raised. +/- 10 meters. (Use a GPS with altitude capabilities.)
Length of pipe for the entire run that's needed. +/- 30 meters. (Use a 50m tape and hike it with help.)
Estimated peak water use at the peak consumption point of the day.
Estimated daily water requirement. This can come from estimated use by a household x number of households. If they're crudely carrying water up and down hills now take what they're using and multiply it by 10 because of the increased convenience as LI mentioned.
Check if line-of-site communications can work. Running control wires that far is fraught with issues, especially somewhere that lightning occurs. A simple radio link between the upper tank and the lower pump system is a superior solution if it's viable. (Use walkie-talkies to determine if top to bottom communications is possible. Test them out to 1km on flat ground to know if they can cover the 700m distance.)
With this info we can actually devise a functional optimal system.
Anything to add to the list folks?
==========================
Consideration should be given for solar power as carting around and burning fuel to do this is a giant waste of more time, money, and a potential pollution source around drinking water. Is there the possibility of installing some solar panels somewhere? Ideally at several stopping points up the hill.
Consideration should also be made for catching rain and storing it instead or to greatly reduce the pumping needed.
A thorough survey of the surrounding area should first be made as even a tiny creek trickling down the hill could supply all the needed water. A source 2km away but at the same or higher elevation would be vastly cheaper to harness than the one being contemplated now.
Keith Cress
kcress -
This is a completely NON-trivial design. To have even a hope of making this work you need to provide:
Height the water must be raised. +/- 10 meters. (Use a GPS with altitude capabilities.)
Length of pipe for the entire run that's needed. +/- 30 meters. (Use a 50m tape and hike it with help.)
Estimated peak water use at the peak consumption point of the day.
Estimated daily water requirement. This can come from estimated use by a household x number of households. If they're crudely carrying water up and down hills now take what they're using and multiply it by 10 because of the increased convenience as LI mentioned.
Check if line-of-site communications can work. Running control wires that far is fraught with issues, especially somewhere that lightning occurs. A simple radio link between the upper tank and the lower pump system is a superior solution if it's viable. (Use walkie-talkies to determine if top to bottom communications is possible. Test them out to 1km on flat ground to know if they can cover the 700m distance.)
With this info we can actually devise a functional optimal system.
Anything to add to the list folks?
==========================
Consideration should be given for solar power as carting around and burning fuel to do this is a giant waste of more time, money, and a potential pollution source around drinking water. Is there the possibility of installing some solar panels somewhere? Ideally at several stopping points up the hill.
Consideration should also be made for catching rain and storing it instead or to greatly reduce the pumping needed.
A thorough survey of the surrounding area should first be made as even a tiny creek trickling down the hill could supply all the needed water. A source 2km away but at the same or higher elevation would be vastly cheaper to harness than the one being contemplated now.
Keith Cress
kcress -
- Thread starter
- #13
Noyz3e,
With your requirements as stated, your installation is non-trivial. It will require professional installation (class 900# or 1500# piping, significant piping support and anchoring due to slope and possibility of erosion, a very high pressure pump, etc). One lift may require a positive displacement pump. A 50-70 bar for a multistage pump is doable, but maintenance of those is not simple.
I would explore alternative water sources - are there any that are further away, but much higher elevation? A simple overhung packed pump is much easier to train people to repair (tighten/replace packing, impellers, etc) than a multistage or PD pump. Is there a way to collect rainwater?
Overall, it seems like you looking at a system that would require on-going expertise found at a production plant (welding requirements for repairs to high pressure piping, maintenance and repair of a relatively high pressure pump), which would make it not feasible for a "village" to maintain.
Also, Borneo is an island. You'll likely have salt carried in the air. You'll likely have to go with a higher alloy than regular stainless (i.e. 2205), which will also increase your costs. Coating pipes isn't recommended due to eventual maintenance requirements.
I would STRONGLY recommend you look at alternative options to providing water to this village.
With your requirements as stated, your installation is non-trivial. It will require professional installation (class 900# or 1500# piping, significant piping support and anchoring due to slope and possibility of erosion, a very high pressure pump, etc). One lift may require a positive displacement pump. A 50-70 bar for a multistage pump is doable, but maintenance of those is not simple.
I would explore alternative water sources - are there any that are further away, but much higher elevation? A simple overhung packed pump is much easier to train people to repair (tighten/replace packing, impellers, etc) than a multistage or PD pump. Is there a way to collect rainwater?
Overall, it seems like you looking at a system that would require on-going expertise found at a production plant (welding requirements for repairs to high pressure piping, maintenance and repair of a relatively high pressure pump), which would make it not feasible for a "village" to maintain.
Also, Borneo is an island. You'll likely have salt carried in the air. You'll likely have to go with a higher alloy than regular stainless (i.e. 2205), which will also increase your costs. Coating pipes isn't recommended due to eventual maintenance requirements.
I would STRONGLY recommend you look at alternative options to providing water to this village.
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