Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations cowski on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
Way of designing 8
- Thread starter linqur
- Start date
Here's a thing..
My favourite people to work with are those who can engage in a discussion, which may become a debate which may become an energeticly argued debate... without losing the thread, failing to make their point clearly, taking any of it personally, failing to listen to others or pulling rank.
I reckon the only people who can do this are those who are neither arrogant nor humble. In an nut-shell: If you know what you're talking about, then lets hear what you have to say, the rest of you can wait outside.
My favourite people to work with are those who can engage in a discussion, which may become a debate which may become an energeticly argued debate... without losing the thread, failing to make their point clearly, taking any of it personally, failing to listen to others or pulling rank.
I reckon the only people who can do this are those who are neither arrogant nor humble. In an nut-shell: If you know what you're talking about, then lets hear what you have to say, the rest of you can wait outside.
linqur, I can visualize my designs and concepts within my minds eye in 3D. However, I find it difficult to take what is in my head and directly create it in CAD.
My best method for overcoming this is by modeling in clay or drawing it on paper. My thoughts can manifest themselves on the fly by working in these media. Once I have something on paper or in my hand (clay) that somewhat resembles what I envisioned in my minds eye, I sit down at the computer and start modeling.
I've found this process to also improve my ability to build parts and assemblies in my minds eye. Well I hope this might help, and don't forget it takes time and practice and develop your minds eye. Good luck!
My best method for overcoming this is by modeling in clay or drawing it on paper. My thoughts can manifest themselves on the fly by working in these media. Once I have something on paper or in my hand (clay) that somewhat resembles what I envisioned in my minds eye, I sit down at the computer and start modeling.
I've found this process to also improve my ability to build parts and assemblies in my minds eye. Well I hope this might help, and don't forget it takes time and practice and develop your minds eye. Good luck!
Smokehouse,
I develop and design consumer products (3D Cadd, degreed ME), mostly out of plastic, and a few things a class-a tool maker would have to learn before he was a good consumer product designer are:
Plastic material properites (regarding design, function, assembly, manufacturing, product environment, cost, etc...)
The marketing - sometimes we don't use the best mechanical design because people would never buy the product. Form does not always follow function. A great design can get tossed due to cost, looks, feel, the marketing guy down the hall hates it, number of parts, doesn't WIP well, all sorts of reasons. The "best designer" needs to be able to design around these and should know of them while designing so they never make it to the reviews. You have to learn your customer base and design for point of sale as well as durability, cost, weight, function... etc. If it never leave the shelf your boss will not care how well it works.
I guess I'm saying, no one can say who would make the best designer - no that isn't right... the best designers make the best designers. I tend to feel I'm a good designer. My products tend to sell (credit goes also to marketing, ID, manufacturing, and sales). Does this make me the "best designer"? No. Just a good consuemr product designer. I bet a class-A tool maker would make a good tool designer - that's there knowledge base!
I develop and design consumer products (3D Cadd, degreed ME), mostly out of plastic, and a few things a class-a tool maker would have to learn before he was a good consumer product designer are:
Plastic material properites (regarding design, function, assembly, manufacturing, product environment, cost, etc...)
The marketing - sometimes we don't use the best mechanical design because people would never buy the product. Form does not always follow function. A great design can get tossed due to cost, looks, feel, the marketing guy down the hall hates it, number of parts, doesn't WIP well, all sorts of reasons. The "best designer" needs to be able to design around these and should know of them while designing so they never make it to the reviews. You have to learn your customer base and design for point of sale as well as durability, cost, weight, function... etc. If it never leave the shelf your boss will not care how well it works.
I guess I'm saying, no one can say who would make the best designer - no that isn't right... the best designers make the best designers. I tend to feel I'm a good designer. My products tend to sell (credit goes also to marketing, ID, manufacturing, and sales). Does this make me the "best designer"? No. Just a good consuemr product designer. I bet a class-A tool maker would make a good tool designer - that's there knowledge base!
smokehouse
Mechanical
cgrace12,
When I stated that a class A toolmaker would make a good designer, I meant a mold designer.
He/she would design only the mold, not the part.
A journeyman toolmaker might not be so good designing say a special machine..or most anything out of his line of work.
I never meant to imply that he would..
Moldmaking/designing is a specific area of expertise and the person that has been exposed to the most applications SHOULD be pretty good at it.
The person that has worked with all kinds of components such as:
..slides/cams, slides/hydraulics, unscrewing cores, rising angular cams, delayed ejection systems, hot runner systems..etc.....
is a mighty valuble person. Now if this person has installed these components and built molds around them, then they should make a good designer.
A class A toolmaker will know the metallurgy involved as well. Let's face it, there are only a few kinds of steel normally used in mold building.
He/she will (SHOULD) know how to calculate the molding pressure directed on a slide for example...
Now let's say this candidate works in a place where they not only build molds but also run them.
The toolmaker works closely with the molding process so when it comes to designing let's say gates, runners, vents, ejection, draft angles, etc...He SHOULD be ahead of the game.
Anyways, these are some of the reasons I say and still say a Class A toolmaker will make the best designer.....
(Remember, I said MOLD designer).
When I stated that a class A toolmaker would make a good designer, I meant a mold designer.
He/she would design only the mold, not the part.
A journeyman toolmaker might not be so good designing say a special machine..or most anything out of his line of work.
I never meant to imply that he would..
Moldmaking/designing is a specific area of expertise and the person that has been exposed to the most applications SHOULD be pretty good at it.
The person that has worked with all kinds of components such as:
..slides/cams, slides/hydraulics, unscrewing cores, rising angular cams, delayed ejection systems, hot runner systems..etc.....
is a mighty valuble person. Now if this person has installed these components and built molds around them, then they should make a good designer.
A class A toolmaker will know the metallurgy involved as well. Let's face it, there are only a few kinds of steel normally used in mold building.
He/she will (SHOULD) know how to calculate the molding pressure directed on a slide for example...
Now let's say this candidate works in a place where they not only build molds but also run them.
The toolmaker works closely with the molding process so when it comes to designing let's say gates, runners, vents, ejection, draft angles, etc...He SHOULD be ahead of the game.
Anyways, these are some of the reasons I say and still say a Class A toolmaker will make the best designer.....
(Remember, I said MOLD designer).
safecracker
Mechanical
When it comes to designing things, I find that time spent flat on my back on a couch with my eyes shut, ruminating on a problem is time very well spent. It is my experience that sorting out the design concepts and requirements first is the only way to go. Then step two, which is making drawings to prove the design and then finally fabrication. I have found to my chagrin that if I try to rearrange the process, it usually turns into a great waste of time and resources
Fortunately I am self employed and can get away with "sleeping" on the job. Most employers probably wouldn't go for it.
It's been an interesting topic, one that could easily become philosophical.
Fortunately I am self employed and can get away with "sleeping" on the job. Most employers probably wouldn't go for it.
It's been an interesting topic, one that could easily become philosophical.
Smokehouse,
I get where you're coming from but for me, the tool-designer analogy doesn't work on one level:
Tool design (correct me if I'm wrong) involves two things - knowledge of the specific engineering used in tool design and experience gained about the 'black-art' side of the process where the theory doesn't go the whole way to predicting the end result.
This is all good stuff and these are valuable people but they don't epitomise good 'designers' for me because their field is too narrow and can be learned over time by most engineers.
For me its all about the difference between Art and Craft: Craft is all about learning techniques and applying them with great skill.
Art is all about the extra something you add to the craft side; The stuff you do that goes beyond the craft.
A really good designer can be thrown into a new process and by applying their knowledge of the craft and adding to that the art of good designing, they will produce a unique and valuable end result.
For me, your class A tool-designer is only a 'great designer' if next week he/she could be a great something-else-designer.
I get where you're coming from but for me, the tool-designer analogy doesn't work on one level:
Tool design (correct me if I'm wrong) involves two things - knowledge of the specific engineering used in tool design and experience gained about the 'black-art' side of the process where the theory doesn't go the whole way to predicting the end result.
This is all good stuff and these are valuable people but they don't epitomise good 'designers' for me because their field is too narrow and can be learned over time by most engineers.
For me its all about the difference between Art and Craft: Craft is all about learning techniques and applying them with great skill.
Art is all about the extra something you add to the craft side; The stuff you do that goes beyond the craft.
A really good designer can be thrown into a new process and by applying their knowledge of the craft and adding to that the art of good designing, they will produce a unique and valuable end result.
For me, your class A tool-designer is only a 'great designer' if next week he/she could be a great something-else-designer.
smokehouse
Mechanical
Biggadike,
Competition in the field of moldmaking/designing is fierce today..Mold building is going off-shore at an accelerated pace now.
The reasons are many and complicated..
The point I'm getting at is that a moldmaker/designer simply cannot afford to waste one minute contemplating a new "wheel".
In 99% of mold design, the parameters are forgone...There is a right way and a wrong way...The smart/experienced designer has seen them all tried and knows the right way.
I'm NOT saying that innovation has no place in mold design!!!
However MOST applications are paramatized..
Let's take one project and compare the experienced mold designer and the "artist"..
We need a part for the Mold to produce so let's say it's a small bowl for simplicity's sake.
Needles to say, the end customer has supplied the part file.
First we go through the molding parameters..the amount projected, the material, the press it should run in.
This will give us the mold size, steel requirements, etc..
At this time, I can visualize the entire mold....the water system, the ejection system, the runner system, cavity and core..
Now we go to work:
Prime considerations are MONEY...TIME...and with NO mistakes.
This is what I mean about the mold design being "paramatized"
The money just isn't there for any wasted time..
I prolly haven't explained myself very well on this but you can see what I'm getting at..
Competition in the field of moldmaking/designing is fierce today..Mold building is going off-shore at an accelerated pace now.
The reasons are many and complicated..
The point I'm getting at is that a moldmaker/designer simply cannot afford to waste one minute contemplating a new "wheel".
In 99% of mold design, the parameters are forgone...There is a right way and a wrong way...The smart/experienced designer has seen them all tried and knows the right way.
I'm NOT saying that innovation has no place in mold design!!!
However MOST applications are paramatized..
Let's take one project and compare the experienced mold designer and the "artist"..
We need a part for the Mold to produce so let's say it's a small bowl for simplicity's sake.
Needles to say, the end customer has supplied the part file.
First we go through the molding parameters..the amount projected, the material, the press it should run in.
This will give us the mold size, steel requirements, etc..
At this time, I can visualize the entire mold....the water system, the ejection system, the runner system, cavity and core..
Now we go to work:
Prime considerations are MONEY...TIME...and with NO mistakes.
This is what I mean about the mold design being "paramatized"
The money just isn't there for any wasted time..
I prolly haven't explained myself very well on this but you can see what I'm getting at..
Smokehouse, I think what Biggadike was trying to say was that a Mold Designer is a very specialized field. They might be great for designing molds, but their area of expertise is too narrow. If they step outside their area, they will be less successful.
A well rounded Designer has knowledge and experinces that cover a very broad range of disciplines. A Designer might be able to design a chair, ergonomic work center, packaging machine, or swoopy product housing. A Mold Designer could try, but might fumble.
I've driven a few top fuel dragsters down the quater mile at 170mph, but I wouldn't want to tackle Watkins Glen at 90mph. You have drivers in both NHRA and NASCAR, but the NHRA drivers are a bit too specilized for what they do. A NASCAR driver might be able to hit the tree on time, and not miss any shifts. With practice they could rival a NHRA driver. I don't think it would work the same way in reverse.
Sorry if I went off on a tangent.![[ponder]](/data/assets/smilies/ponder.gif "[ponder] [ponder]")
"The attempt and not the deed confounds us."
A well rounded Designer has knowledge and experinces that cover a very broad range of disciplines. A Designer might be able to design a chair, ergonomic work center, packaging machine, or swoopy product housing. A Mold Designer could try, but might fumble.
I've driven a few top fuel dragsters down the quater mile at 170mph, but I wouldn't want to tackle Watkins Glen at 90mph. You have drivers in both NHRA and NASCAR, but the NHRA drivers are a bit too specilized for what they do. A NASCAR driver might be able to hit the tree on time, and not miss any shifts. With practice they could rival a NHRA driver. I don't think it would work the same way in reverse.
Sorry if I went off on a tangent.
"The attempt and not the deed confounds us."
smokehouse
Mechanical
MadMango,
You wrote;
Smokehouse, I think what Biggadike was trying to say was that a Mold Designer is a very specialized field. They might be great for designing molds, but their area of expertise is too narrow. If they step outside their area, they will be less successful.
I couldn't agree MORE!
That's part of what I've been trying to say all along
Unless a person was educated or trained in mold design, there is NOWAY he/she can do this job..
THis is exactly why I say a class A toolmaker will make the best MOLD DESIGNER....It goes without saying that he will be lost in other areas..
I had the pleasure of working with a machine designer a few years ago. THis man was an absolute genious. Some of the machines we built included catwalks all around !!
They were major league creations.
He had the ability to visualize every part on this!! One of the tricks is knowing all about "movement". Do we need hydraulic,Cams, electric motors, vibrators, turn tables????
Plus the limit switches and "dummy proofing" for example..
However, he could not design a mold. Could he learn?? Sure..
Can any other designers of whatever design a mold??? Or a progressive die??
I guess what I'm getting at is NOBODY gets it all...I really don't believe that merely being an educated designer will get the job done, I don't care how "artistic" one is either...
Most areas of creation are specialized, not only mold making.
Whew....
You wrote;
Smokehouse, I think what Biggadike was trying to say was that a Mold Designer is a very specialized field. They might be great for designing molds, but their area of expertise is too narrow. If they step outside their area, they will be less successful.
I couldn't agree MORE!
That's part of what I've been trying to say all along
Unless a person was educated or trained in mold design, there is NOWAY he/she can do this job..
THis is exactly why I say a class A toolmaker will make the best MOLD DESIGNER....It goes without saying that he will be lost in other areas..
I had the pleasure of working with a machine designer a few years ago. THis man was an absolute genious. Some of the machines we built included catwalks all around !!
They were major league creations.
He had the ability to visualize every part on this!! One of the tricks is knowing all about "movement". Do we need hydraulic,Cams, electric motors, vibrators, turn tables????
Plus the limit switches and "dummy proofing" for example..
However, he could not design a mold. Could he learn?? Sure..
Can any other designers of whatever design a mold??? Or a progressive die??
I guess what I'm getting at is NOBODY gets it all...I really don't believe that merely being an educated designer will get the job done, I don't care how "artistic" one is either...
Most areas of creation are specialized, not only mold making.
Whew....
Nobody in their right mind would suggest that there are people out there who could walk into someone elses specialist area and on day 1 start designing like a pro.
What I was getting at is really that the proof of a great designer come when they are faced with diverse challenges which force them to understand design and engineering on a far more fundamental level than just what can be learned parrot-fashion over time.
That doesn't mean that someone who only designs in one field couldn't be a great designer, its just that their mettle has yet to be tested to the full.
Example: I used to design 'lights' (luminaires to use the proper term). They are pretty easy in the scheme of things. Now I design big complex machines. Tomorrow, who knows? If I had stayed in the lighting business, would I be as good a designer?
The answer would have to be 'no' I think. I wouldn't have stretched myself as much and my experience base would have been far smaller. My core ability would have been the same though.
What I was getting at is really that the proof of a great designer come when they are faced with diverse challenges which force them to understand design and engineering on a far more fundamental level than just what can be learned parrot-fashion over time.
That doesn't mean that someone who only designs in one field couldn't be a great designer, its just that their mettle has yet to be tested to the full.
Example: I used to design 'lights' (luminaires to use the proper term). They are pretty easy in the scheme of things. Now I design big complex machines. Tomorrow, who knows? If I had stayed in the lighting business, would I be as good a designer?
The answer would have to be 'no' I think. I wouldn't have stretched myself as much and my experience base would have been far smaller. My core ability would have been the same though.
OK, so we know that everybody in this forum is a good designer!!
What motivated you in the first instance to become an engineer?
Do you think that the pay is appropriate for what you do? Or is satisfaction in what you do more of a motivator?
And is there another job, in an ideal world, that you would rather do?
What motivated you in the first instance to become an engineer?
Do you think that the pay is appropriate for what you do? Or is satisfaction in what you do more of a motivator?
And is there another job, in an ideal world, that you would rather do?
I work for the money obviously, but thankfully I enjoy what I do. Satisfaction is more a motivator for me. I feel the pay is not appropriate for what I do - I should be paid more - surprise, eh?
I made good money before becoming an engineer - but I was frustrated in that I felt I had more to offer - that is I felt capable, given additional education and training, of contributing more to the world, if you will.
I was looking for more of a challenge in my work life, which, like it or not, is a big part of anyone's life.
I am thankful that I am a degreed engineer. This is the profession I have chosen and for me, there is not one better.
I made good money before becoming an engineer - but I was frustrated in that I felt I had more to offer - that is I felt capable, given additional education and training, of contributing more to the world, if you will.
I was looking for more of a challenge in my work life, which, like it or not, is a big part of anyone's life.
I am thankful that I am a degreed engineer. This is the profession I have chosen and for me, there is not one better.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question