UK - Health & Safety File

[capate]

As a company of structural engineers, at the end of the building project, we normally provide a swatch of drawings for the H&S file. However, increasingly we are now being asked to also provide autocad (DRG) files. Our current policy is to refuse. In our view there are copyright issues, plus also ‘others’ can manipulate/change the files.

Providing a client is willing to pay a processing charge, we are quite happy to provide the drawings in PDF format (which can be locked so as to enable viewing and printing only).

How are other companies dealing with this issue?

Regards
Steve

 

[AJUK]

I have come across the same problem with similar concerns. I have thought about DWF which are viewable with the free Volo View program. This also has the advantage that comments can be added but the original drawing is left intact. Columbus may be another route for viewing/recording information.

In my opinion, if your drawings are marked copyright and saved as read only, then you have just about as much protection as can be afforded by the law? Having discharged your duties under CDM and kept records of all drawing issues anybody altering the drawings in order to support their case in a health and safety investigation would surely be committing fraud. I always make sure that any health and safety file information is also issued as paper copies.

 

[capate]

Interesting.

But surely read-only files can be cut&paste into another drawing or simply save-as a different drawing name (which then won’t be read-only). We are also looking to preserve our long-term interest. If a client, at a later date, wants to refurb/modify the project, we would look initially for the client to return to us. Not to make life easy for a follow-on consultant to cut&past the content of our drawings into his own, possibly saving him a fortune (which in reality the client won't see)

I would rather not rely on whether someone has or has not breached our copyright, its difficult to emphatically prove and expensive. As it is not a H&S requirement that the information is provided in autocad DRG format, but a client/Planning Supervisor/project Managers whim. I would prefer (a)not to provide this information in this form or (b) in a locked form which can not be changed or used to breach our copyright etc.

Our problem at present is 'that we are told' (by clients and PM's) that the majority of diciplines (archs/strust/m&e) are handing this information over without question and for free.


We also don’t provide copies of structural calculations for the H&S file. We provide a Structural Preamble/Statement and an‘assumed loading’ data sheet. Your thoughts?

Regards
Steve

 

[cbarn24050]

Hi, on the face of it it seems like a reasonable request from your client. I can't quite see what it is you think they can do with these drawings that will harm your interests.Perhaps you could explain why you are reluctant to provide them.As far as future work is concerned your current attitude is more likely to ensure that they never come back to you, not only that but the word will spread that you are a difficult firm to work with. Your client may well think that they are his to do with what he likes as he has paid you for producing them.

 

[capate]

Hi cbarn24050

In that case, the client would be wrong. He has paid us to carry-out design and produce drawings in order that ‘works’ may be carried out. We convey this information to GC’s etc, by way of printed media - a hardcopy drawing, and provide a hardcopy swatch of drawings for the H&S file. The client does not purchase full-rights to our original work.

We use AutoCAD as a convenient tool for ourselves to produce a quality product economically - if we were still hand-drawing the client would not be receiving our original negatives!

An example of how things can ‘unintentionally’ go wrong: An internal dept. of a national organisation, started using certain of the engineers AutoCAD drawing files (which they had previously received for the H&S file) for internal office layouts. Nothing wrong with that you may say, however, these layouts comprised of extensive areas of a filing storage system and a couple of large safes. These drawing were plotted/printed and circulated internally (intended for comment only), however, unfortunately these were then perceived to be drawings from the engineer approving the proposed layouts and subsequently procurement commenced. Luckily, in this instance the mistake was spotted.

 

[AJUK]

One of the main reasons the H&S file is produced is so that all of the relevant information about the building is available for future reference in the event of extension/alteration, whoever undertakes the design work.

You cannot force a client to use you, it is their choice. You should try to foster good working relationships with all of your clients and do the best job that you can, in my experience this is the best way to protect your own interests!

The fee paid for the project designs effectively entitles the client a 'license' to use them for the intended use. The intellectual property and copyright still remains in your ownership. Also, you simply cannot be held responsible for alterations made to a design without your knowledge and as such it would be extremely easy to defend your position.

 

[cbarn24050]

Hi, I'm suprised to hear that you think you own the copywrite. Normaly if a job is specially comisioned and paid for in full the rights belong to the client. You may have a clause in your terms of business but that don't make it so, unfortunatly the likes of you and me are not allowed to make our own laws. Could you sell these drawings to a third party without your clients permission? you could if you really owned the copywrite. Having said all that the real issue is what are the rest of your industry doing? if you want to stay in business you have to go with the flow.

 

[capate]

Hi ajuk
It was not the intention of my example to focus on ‘responsibility for alterations made without knowledge’ but to demonstrate how easy it is for the ‘unintentional’ to go wrong. I would rather avoid possible like scenarios by NOT providing this information in a form that can be intentionally/unintentionally modified.

Hi cbarn24050
You mean follow like sheep, without questioning - not a very professional attitude.
As to your first point. By way of example:
I prepare the design and drawings for an extension to a house at 25 A Road and charge the owner/client accordingly.
The owner of the house at 27 A Road, would like an identical extension.
The owner of 25 A Road cannot sell his set of drawings to the owner of 27 A Road, for he would be in breach of copyright. However, *I* can resell my design & drawings, because I hold the copyright, without reference to anyone.

 

[AJUK]

capate

I take your point on board and agree entirely with your example. However, we all seem to have skirted around your original question; you asked how other companies are handling this issue - at the moment I issue hard copies only.

I often do issue contract documentation in pdf format, usually schedules and calculations, but only for ease of transmission rather than to protect the content. Although it seems that the read/print only protection afforded by pdf is a very usefull side effect. Perhaps this is the best way to go and there are free pdf writers available if you dont want to buy a full writer (approx £150 for Acrobat). I use Acrobat but this link may be of use

http://www.webxd.com/zipguy/freepdf.htm

 

[capate]

Thanks for your feedback ajuk and for the link to the free pdf writer - that could be handy for home use

 

[sc]

One way to protect the file would be to place a "stamp" on the drawing stating that the drawing is a final copy (stated in whatever way suits the purpose) and then creating a pdf file of the drawing.

The pdf cannot be editted and is readable with the free reader.

If the H&S people specifiy that they require a CAD file, then the purpose they require the drawing for is more than to have an electronic version for record keeping, and as such their request should be refused.


reagrds

sc