Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XIII 27

[dik]

For earlier threads, see:
thread1618-496010
thread1618-496614
thread1618-497017
thread1618-497239
thread1618-497988
thread1618-498967
thread1618-501135
thread1618-504850
thread1618-506948
thread1618-507973
thread1618-510266
thread1618-512015


-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[BridgeSmith]

There are volcanoes under the ice shelf.

So, am I correct in assuming we really have no idea how thick the ice sheet is, so we don't really know how much it's losing or gaining?

 

[GregLocock]

Uh, no we have good looking measurements for ice sheet thickness both over water and over the land from satellite surveys,

and we also can estimate how much the elevation has changed

The gray circular blob is where the satellites can't measure.

So, in general not much change but at the fringes it is getting thinner and in some places it gets thicker.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[TugboatEng]

Only 6000 to 8000 years ago.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/sc...e-to-study-submerged-prehistoric-settlements/

Still before fossil fuels. Dik, can you explain this? Can you explain why it wasn't an extinction level event?

 

[dik]

Totally unrelated. You have to compare the correlation of CO₂ and temperatures with the 'spike' in CO₂ levels, to see where this might take us. It hit +13C in Winnipeg today. It's supposed to be above zero all week. There could be a real down side to this lovely weather.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Unrelated? What caused such drastic change? Winnipeg was under thousands of feet of ice not very long ago and you complain about a week above zero? Why must we correlate everything with CO2 and nothing else?

It's called Indian Summer. It was commonly referenced during the 19th century.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ind..."Indian summer,late as December and January".

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Dik -

I don't know, the alleged 130 meter sea rise during that time seems like a pretty good comparison to the 0.3 meter sea rise that global warming is expected to produce in the next few decades. And, maybe 0.6 meters over the next 100 years.

If humans were easily able to adapt to those massive changes (130 meters in about 2000 years) in sea levels, don't you think it would be reasonable to expect us to be able to adapt to these other changes in sea levels?

Let's use the 0.6 m per 100 years = 0.006 meters per year expected due to global warming.
Back when the ice age ended, our average would be 130 meters divided by 2000 = 130 / 2000 = 0.065 meters per year. That's more than 10 times the "projected" rise from global warming.

That's 100% relevant to concept of human civilization being able to adapt to climate change. We've done it in the past at a rate that was 10 times as bad as the current projections. That would be a pretty good indicator that this isn't an existential threat to humanity. Right?

If the numbers in that article were correct, then I don't see how ANYONE can deny that this is a pretty darn conclusive de-bunking any "alarmist" concerns we should have about rising sea levels.

 

[GregLocock]

6 mm per year is about double what we are actually seeing. It's also unevenly distributed. In 30 years the average is about 10cm, orange on this plot

Of course this is altitude relative to some defined geoid, it doesn't account for the much more significant shifts in altitude of coastal cities such as Jakarta, which are sinking because of groundwater extraction, dredging, and draining of marshes (and so on). North America's tectonic plate is tilting at roughly the same speed as sea level rise, NW up, SE down.


You'll see claims that sea level rise is accelerating. Interestingly there is a kink in the line, when a new set of satellites were used. How politically convenient.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[TugboatEng]

Something to chew on... Why has there been no archeological interest in these submerged cities? We seem to have found most of the shipwrecks and one would think they are much more challenging to find.

My answer is that because the sea level rise was gradual, the people living in the cities packed up and moved. They took everything of value with them so there is nothing valuable left to recover. In the event of a shipwreck, the occurrence is sudden and the fun (profitable) stuff for expeditioners to find remains on board.

In the case of sea level rise, the people literally adapted and moved on and without our advanced technology such as horseless carriages. Heck, they didn't even have horse drawn carriages then. To suggest that a small amount of sea level change is somehow a threat to human existence is totally absurd.

 

[enginesrus]

dik (Structural)
(OP)
29 Jan 24 15:50
CO2 emissions have become political, and this will likely continue. Climate doesn't care if you are a fascist or a communist... the less we do and the longer we wait, the consequences could be that much greater. We are dealing with huge energy systems that have stored a 'pile of power' in the last couple of decades, and continue to do so.
===========================================================================================================================================

When you refuse to look into the real cause, there is nothing "WE can DO".

 

[dik]

Only one reply to this... Fascist and Communist are at extreme opposites of the political scale. Politically I place myself at slightly left of centre
Conservative. I have a real difference from most Conservatives; I have a real social conscience. With climate change, it doesn't matter where you are on the political 'scale'.

Like it or not, climate change is happening. It's largely related to the increase in the CO₂ in the atmosphere caused by man. There's a close correlation of earth temperatures to CO₂. The oceans have warmed significantly; I cannot image oceans in the Florida area have surface temperatures of 100F... body temperature. Given the volume of these oceans; this added warming is indicative of a huge amount of energy. This is reflected in the rapid development of storms. Check California's recent atomospheric 'rivers' of late.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/04/us/california-atmospheric-river-flooding/index.html

With the uneven heating of the earth, where the poles are warming more than the equator, the polar jet stream is more unstable and results in freaky temperatures. Winnipeg hit +13C a couple of days back. One Feb 14, I know the temperature was -35C; this is a little more representative.

Little appears to be done to correct the problem. Correction of this will be life changing if it occurs. It's not possible to determine where this will end. We simply have to wait it out and see if we can accommodate it.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Fascists and communists are at opposite ends? You're totally delusional.

 

[dik]

Grab a book and look it up, tug... Fascists are ultra conservatives and communists are ultra socialists. I didn't make up the definitions.

"Fascism is a set of right-wing political beliefs that includes strong control of society and the economy by the state, a powerful role for the armed forces, and the stopping of political opposition."

and from my farourite (Oxford)

"​(also Fascism) an extreme right-wing political system or attitude that is in favour of strong central government, aggressively promoting your own country or race above others, and that does not allow any opposition"

You might not recall (or maybe have never known) that the NAZI party of Germany were National Socialists (but not in a social sort of way) but were fascists (Ultra Right). They had a strong following in the US by the 'rich'. In addition, most people don't realise that Hitler was actually elected. Shades of current politics?

are you blissful? Just curious...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Funny, you posted a bunch of definitions of fascism but did not post any for communism or socialism. Why? They're the same damn thing. They're all authoritarianism.

 

[dik]

Blissful as ever...

ICYC, Fascism is the ultra right and Communism is the ultra left... if you need confirmation, look it up. People sometimes think that fascism is simply a despotic dictatorship... not realising that it is an ultra conservative dictatorship.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Do you believe it is possible to have communism/socialism without authoritarianism?

 

[CWB1]

 

[rb1957]

left wing is meant to mean socialism (distributed political power), an communism is an extreme form of socialism.
right wing is meant to mean concentrated political power, and fascism is an extreme concentration.

the problem is that in practice communism led to a high concentration of power.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[CWB1]

The association of right vs left with either conservative or liberal parties varies by country so is best avoided on international forums.

Conservatism is a belief that govt should remain small, weak, and decentralized to protect individual freedoms over the collective. Liberalism is the opposite, a belief that a strong central govt must exist to limit individual freedoms which lest they negatively impact the collective. Fascism and communism are both liberal political systems in which a strong central govt severely limits individual freedoms under the claim of benefiting the collective.

 

[dik]

Digressing a bit, I don’t know of any countries that are totally socialist. There are a few that are Communist. Many of them are doing poorly.

Regarding Socialism, there are numerous countries that have adopted parts of socialism. Many of the ‘free’ and civilised countries provide many ‘socialist’ benefits. This may include looking after their citizens in older age, providing a level of health care, including medicines and dental, providing free or nearly free university education, providing social assistance, etc. In addition, much of their power systems are state owned or controlled.

As far as freedoms, or lack of them, China has made some remarkable progress with respect to poverty. Their infrastructure is in contrast to their perceived social condition.

"In 1990 there were more than 750 million people in China living below the international poverty line - about two-thirds of the population.

By 2012, that had fallen to fewer than 90 million, and by 2016 - the most recent year for which World Bank figures are available - it had fallen to 7.2 million people (0.5% of the population).

So clearly, even in 2016 China was well on the way to reaching its target."

Vietnam, another Communist country has made some remarkable changes is the the last several decades. In most western democracies, the opposite has happened... the number of street people increases daily.


-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Tmoose]

In "the the last several decades" in " most western democracies... the number of street people increases daily."

Obviously just one more tragic effect of global warming.