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The bad news about windfarms.... 14
- Thread starter jmw
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One of the troubles with "green" is that a great many people are opting for wood burning stoves.
Problem one is that wood theft and illegal logging is now becoming a serious issue. Not surprising given the cost of a small bundle of wood. Also, even legitimate supplies of wood are bad news in a country where woodland is already under pressure.
Problem two: yes, wood may or may not be carbon neutral, but it puts out a lot of other pollutants.
In the Uk those oldies among us can remember the smogs and the smoke from wood and coal fires permeating the atmosphere.
If you listen to the greenies the air is a poison soup and getting worse. Conversely, depsite a substantial population increase and a huge increase in car ownership, air quality today is far far better than it was within living memory. This is especially true in the industrial towns and cities.
JMW
Problem one is that wood theft and illegal logging is now becoming a serious issue. Not surprising given the cost of a small bundle of wood. Also, even legitimate supplies of wood are bad news in a country where woodland is already under pressure.
Problem two: yes, wood may or may not be carbon neutral, but it puts out a lot of other pollutants.
In the Uk those oldies among us can remember the smogs and the smoke from wood and coal fires permeating the atmosphere.
If you listen to the greenies the air is a poison soup and getting worse. Conversely, depsite a substantial population increase and a huge increase in car ownership, air quality today is far far better than it was within living memory. This is especially true in the industrial towns and cities.
JMW
In areas where there is significent amount of trees killed by insects, there is a push to harvest the wood. However so much of it is not of a quality for making lumber, and making mulch just adds to the already large quanity of mulch already produced. Mixing this wood into coal for power production is very attrictave because it reduces the amount of coal consumed.
As for the cost of wood in small bundles, exactly how dumb are you to pay that price, when a cord of wood is $100 to $200 a cord in many parts of the US.
My understanding is with the new requirements of wood stoves, significently reduces the amount of soot into the air.
And even more interesting is the increased use of wood pellets for home heating, which uses waste wood. The problem is there are so few pellets manufactured, and so much waste wood is land filled.
Instering enough is those of us with wind, don't have many smog problems. Probally the best use of wind yet.
As for the cost of wood in small bundles, exactly how dumb are you to pay that price, when a cord of wood is $100 to $200 a cord in many parts of the US.
My understanding is with the new requirements of wood stoves, significently reduces the amount of soot into the air.
And even more interesting is the increased use of wood pellets for home heating, which uses waste wood. The problem is there are so few pellets manufactured, and so much waste wood is land filled.
Instering enough is those of us with wind, don't have many smog problems. Probally the best use of wind yet.
"""The "smart grid" concept is also potentially useful, but only to the extent of its capabilities. It does not add any energy to the grid, it merely provides some control capabilities."""
So where was the "Smart Grid" in southern California yesterday?
It would appear that the cascade failure of the grid was control related.
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
So where was the "Smart Grid" in southern California yesterday?
It would appear that the cascade failure of the grid was control related.
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
I've sat through a few presentations on smart grid. Inevitably the question arises about how much control will be exercised. There are usually a lot of wide-eyed, raised eyebrow looks of shock and fear from the unhealthy, when the answer is "shut you off, if you bump your limit." My eyes narrow to slits for even contemplating such control over an individual's life. That is not what the USA is about.
I don't know why we can't be thankful for what we do have and let nature and free markets take their course.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
I don't know why we can't be thankful for what we do have and let nature and free markets take their course.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
Smart Grid, dumb idea.
To think some one wants to cut off some customers, so others can have cheeper electricty. Maybe we can cut customers off when the wind dosen't blow.
The problem here is most people don't understand what smart grid is, and when you explain it to them, they don't want it.
Gee the goverment has done a great job of propraganda. Edwin Bernase would be proud.
To think some one wants to cut off some customers, so others can have cheeper electricty. Maybe we can cut customers off when the wind dosen't blow.
The problem here is most people don't understand what smart grid is, and when you explain it to them, they don't want it.
Gee the goverment has done a great job of propraganda. Edwin Bernase would be proud.
As I understand it, the "smart grid" would allow greater integration of wind energy , by way of reducing demand for short periods ( by turning off 220V appliances) when wind energy has suddenly tripped offline .
One major impediment to larger wind farm acceptance is the inherent instability in the wind turbine output vs wind speed. Most large turbines will deliver rated output for wind speeds in the 20-55 mph range, but at 55.000000001 mph they trip offline. For large farms exposed to the same wind speed, this leads to a sudden loss of 1-2 GWe output in a matter of minutes, as demonstrated in Texas ERCOT a few years ago. At that time, the only alternative was to suddenly startup gas turbines and shut off certain supplies to certain industrial consumers- but with smart grid, they woould likely shut off power to homeowners HVAC, driers, hot water heaters, and heating systems for 30 minutes ( ie the time needed to startup the gas turbines).
Since that ERCOT event ( and similar events in europe)it has been theorized that by installing a wide grid of wind sensors wired to a central monitoring location ( dispatch) , one can better predict the onset of the instability and therefore startup the gas turbines earlier, or reduce homeowner demand via the smart grid. But there is no doubt that the smart grid would allow more flexibility to respond to such a disturbance without leading to a system blackout.
One major impediment to larger wind farm acceptance is the inherent instability in the wind turbine output vs wind speed. Most large turbines will deliver rated output for wind speeds in the 20-55 mph range, but at 55.000000001 mph they trip offline. For large farms exposed to the same wind speed, this leads to a sudden loss of 1-2 GWe output in a matter of minutes, as demonstrated in Texas ERCOT a few years ago. At that time, the only alternative was to suddenly startup gas turbines and shut off certain supplies to certain industrial consumers- but with smart grid, they woould likely shut off power to homeowners HVAC, driers, hot water heaters, and heating systems for 30 minutes ( ie the time needed to startup the gas turbines).
Since that ERCOT event ( and similar events in europe)it has been theorized that by installing a wide grid of wind sensors wired to a central monitoring location ( dispatch) , one can better predict the onset of the instability and therefore startup the gas turbines earlier, or reduce homeowner demand via the smart grid. But there is no doubt that the smart grid would allow more flexibility to respond to such a disturbance without leading to a system blackout.
Smart grid, from the presentations I've seen, is also about gathering information about outlets and control of those outlets, from your refrigerator to your iron. Who cares about the little, insignificant details of my life? I'm a very low power user because I don't want to pay for it even at 0.10¢/kwh. Call me cheap......
And who needs reams of data to the umpteenth power on those insignificant details?
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
And who needs reams of data to the umpteenth power on those insignificant details?
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
It's what I call the "Costco Effect"; while your details are small, when multiplied by 10 million, they can become major issues.
The same deal applies at Costco. My SB always asks, "why is our bill $200?" Invariably, it's because while any individual item was only $10, buying 20 of them adds up.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
The same deal applies at Costco. My SB always asks, "why is our bill $200?" Invariably, it's because while any individual item was only $10, buying 20 of them adds up.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
IRStuff, I get the Costco effect. I believe in the individual's right to privacy especially in their own home. Whose business is it to know their coffee pot goes on at 5A? Whose business is it to know an iron is used once a week? Whose business is it to know a spouse is dying from cancer and requires more energy for in-home care? Are they going to start scheduling people's lives in their own homes to that degree?
The last presentation I heard was an Englishman. I have not researched his information and don't have time to; however, he said this was tried in Britain 30 or 40 years ago and it failed miserably. Brits didn't want to do their laundry at 11P to get inexpensive rates, kids dictated some usage through illnesses, school, etc., and so on They wanted to use energy when it was convenient for them and their family.
Some things need to be thought through more than they appear to be to me right now. If we have capacity problems, build more power generation to meet demand. And don't mess with economics to justify a position that would otherwise fail.
Now, I will stop exhaling because certainly I've hit someone's limit for CO2 pollution. :-D
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
The last presentation I heard was an Englishman. I have not researched his information and don't have time to; however, he said this was tried in Britain 30 or 40 years ago and it failed miserably. Brits didn't want to do their laundry at 11P to get inexpensive rates, kids dictated some usage through illnesses, school, etc., and so on They wanted to use energy when it was convenient for them and their family.
Some things need to be thought through more than they appear to be to me right now. If we have capacity problems, build more power generation to meet demand. And don't mess with economics to justify a position that would otherwise fail.
Now, I will stop exhaling because certainly I've hit someone's limit for CO2 pollution. :-D
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
So please explain to me why the Brits who do do their laundry at 11 (by simply setting a timer on the newer washers) should be subsidizing those who do their wash earlier. After all, the cost to supply the energy earlier is higher. Sounds like a socialist redistribution of wealth to me.
None of my appliances are smart enough to tell a meter anything.
If you're gobbling up 5 kW at a certain time, I don't think they care how you consumed the power, just that you did.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
If you're gobbling up 5 kW at a certain time, I don't think they care how you consumed the power, just that you did.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
IRstuff, blind energy consumption exist today but that is not what they want in the future per the presentations I've heard. They want "intelligence" on every outlet to know what is plugged in and every other bit of data they can possibly get from it including usage. Will they get there? Dunno but that's the plan and I, as an older US citizen, don't like that much intrusion. We have too much now. I don't think we will change any more than the Brits did so it will not matter in the long run. But, we'll have wasted a bucketload of money, which we don't have, on "innovation."
I attended a meeting recently wherein Hwy. 36, which runs betwixt Denver and Boulder was discussed. Boulderites wanted mass transit because it is better for Mother Earth and all the other things Boulderites value. I'm uncertain about the phase of the project but companies have invested in strategic spots betwixt the two cities, at great expense for some. I almost bought in this area because it was touted as the next "great" area. I forget who the speaker was but now Boulderites want to rip up Hwy. 36 and build a super-duper, 8-lane highway or some such thing, betwixt Denver and Boulder. I don't remember the monies involved but they were not insignificant.
What happened to their much desired light rail project? They don't want it because they want the convenience and luxury of their own little cocoons, i.e., their cars transporting them according to their free will.
I didn't think anyone would ever give up the freedom a car provides and I was not wrong. We are Americans whether liberal or conservative. We like and want that freedom.
I do. When I am ready to do something, I am ready. I don't care to wait for any form of mass transit. I am old enough to have ridden mass transit, more than once, and dislike it for most cases except theme parks.
But, younger people may be losing the flavor of freedom. Time will tell....
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
I attended a meeting recently wherein Hwy. 36, which runs betwixt Denver and Boulder was discussed. Boulderites wanted mass transit because it is better for Mother Earth and all the other things Boulderites value. I'm uncertain about the phase of the project but companies have invested in strategic spots betwixt the two cities, at great expense for some. I almost bought in this area because it was touted as the next "great" area. I forget who the speaker was but now Boulderites want to rip up Hwy. 36 and build a super-duper, 8-lane highway or some such thing, betwixt Denver and Boulder. I don't remember the monies involved but they were not insignificant.
What happened to their much desired light rail project? They don't want it because they want the convenience and luxury of their own little cocoons, i.e., their cars transporting them according to their free will.
I didn't think anyone would ever give up the freedom a car provides and I was not wrong. We are Americans whether liberal or conservative. We like and want that freedom.
I do. When I am ready to do something, I am ready. I don't care to wait for any form of mass transit. I am old enough to have ridden mass transit, more than once, and dislike it for most cases except theme parks.
But, younger people may be losing the flavor of freedom. Time will tell....Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
So the word is getting out what exactly "smart Grid" is. Here again it is a concession for wind power, for some one to feel green, or so someone else can save money.
Now if "Smart Grid" was only used to control when you charged your "smart car", you might have something.
Here's an idea, change most of your applicances to gas (gas stove, heat, gas refridgator, gas air-conditioner). Then how effective would smart grid be?
Now if "Smart Grid" was only used to control when you charged your "smart car", you might have something.
Here's an idea, change most of your applicances to gas (gas stove, heat, gas refridgator, gas air-conditioner). Then how effective would smart grid be?
- Thread starter
- #96
I'm sure we discussed this in another thread.
Simply put, the potential is that with separate rings for different parts of the house, a smart meter/switchbox would be able to isolate different rings.
They can recognise various appliances, even if dumb, by their characteristic inrush and operating currents etc. A kettle is different to a phone charger etc.
But we are now seeing some smart devices able to communicate with your PC. By extension they can also communicate with your smart switchgear. Possibly self configuring wirless networks back to the smartmeter/switch box.
So instead of a brown out affecting whole districts, the smart grid system has the ability to reach into your home and shut off various appliances in the home.
Half time in the big game on TV and you may watch the adverts but not put the kettle on.
Of course, this may also involve a system of penalties for using excessive loads or "bad behaviour" such as leaving appliances on standby instead of switching them off. Automatic fines. Penalty points which influence how your home is treated during a shortage.
OK, so far so good/bad.
The fact is this system means big brother knows what you do all day long, what you put in and take out of the fridge, how many times you open the door and what programs you watch as well as identifying "anti-social" power use.
But I'll bet that no smart grid will shut down AL Gore's kettles
but some low income schmuck with poor voting behaviour, can bet will find about all he can do is watch selected TV channels (probably all about climate change and full of subliminal content and as punishment for bad behaviour the big sports events will be denied.
I mean, it's all for your own good, isn't it?
JMW
Simply put, the potential is that with separate rings for different parts of the house, a smart meter/switchbox would be able to isolate different rings.
They can recognise various appliances, even if dumb, by their characteristic inrush and operating currents etc. A kettle is different to a phone charger etc.
But we are now seeing some smart devices able to communicate with your PC. By extension they can also communicate with your smart switchgear. Possibly self configuring wirless networks back to the smartmeter/switch box.
So instead of a brown out affecting whole districts, the smart grid system has the ability to reach into your home and shut off various appliances in the home.
Half time in the big game on TV and you may watch the adverts but not put the kettle on.
Of course, this may also involve a system of penalties for using excessive loads or "bad behaviour" such as leaving appliances on standby instead of switching them off. Automatic fines. Penalty points which influence how your home is treated during a shortage.
OK, so far so good/bad.
The fact is this system means big brother knows what you do all day long, what you put in and take out of the fridge, how many times you open the door and what programs you watch as well as identifying "anti-social" power use.
But I'll bet that no smart grid will shut down AL Gore's kettles
but some low income schmuck with poor voting behaviour, can bet will find about all he can do is watch selected TV channels (probably all about climate change and full of subliminal content and as punishment for bad behaviour the big sports events will be denied.
I mean, it's all for your own good, isn't it?
JMW
JMW
I believe you are resident in the UK, when I left there some 40 years ago, the local electricity boards were strongly promoting Night storage heaters. These were wired on a separate ring main with their own meter, and time switch. The idea was that they would only draw current, when the steam powered plants were idling, at a time of day or night, when the generating companies were making far more current than they could dispose of, and therefore deeply discounted the rate. Now the idea seems to have swung to the exact opposite, where instead of being encouraged to do something, you are being punished for "Bad Behaviour".
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
I believe you are resident in the UK, when I left there some 40 years ago, the local electricity boards were strongly promoting Night storage heaters. These were wired on a separate ring main with their own meter, and time switch. The idea was that they would only draw current, when the steam powered plants were idling, at a time of day or night, when the generating companies were making far more current than they could dispose of, and therefore deeply discounted the rate. Now the idea seems to have swung to the exact opposite, where instead of being encouraged to do something, you are being punished for "Bad Behaviour".
B.E.
The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor
To wit.......
Boulder, according to people around here, is 25 square miles surrounded by reality. Some Boulder residents verify the veracity of that statement.
Boulder County, from what one Weld County guy said, is $300,000,000+/- in debt, with no way to pay that debt. Residents in the eastern part of Boulder Co. want to secede and join Weld Co. Weld doesn't want their debt and they would bring about $100,000,000+/- of debt with them. Weld Co. is very conservative and, as a result, is fairly solvent. Weld also has more natural resources to help pay the bills and remain solvent. They are O&G, mining, etc. friendly. They understand free enterprise, capitalism, business, and how the economy works.
I've been skimming over some booklets I got from the US government on smart grid. It does not include wind power but will center around smart meters, controlling individual loads in homes, and PVs. Control is on its way and PV manufacturers and probably glass manufacturers lobbied heavily for smart grid.
They claim blackouts and brownouts are because of our aging infrastructure, aging power plants, and lack of capacity. Yet they printed a lot of problems are due to chronic underinvestment. Further, a little reading at wiki on blackouts in the US reveals most were due to weather related issues or earthquakes. You cannot control nature and when it decides to issue up hurricanes, huge snowfalls, ice storms, high winds, floods, etc. Some were caused by human error. When I read disparate information like that, I become suspicious and tend to believe my emotions and rational mind are being manipulated. I also tend to suspect the cause of some blackouts because of the crap Ken Lay and Enron pulled on people to give the appearance of energy shortages.
I may have posted this elsewhere and if I have, forgive me. Another local municipality wanted its residents to conserve water because we have a water shortage. They wanted to be good citizens so they acted in accordance with the request and conserved. Turns out they were really good at conserving water. They were so good the municipality lost so much revenue they were unable to meet their costs and had to tell people to start using water again.
These are examples to me of why the truth is so important and the truth from people who know which end is up and which hole to keep shut. I am not convinced we have the right people talking yet.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
Boulder, according to people around here, is 25 square miles surrounded by reality. Some Boulder residents verify the veracity of that statement.
Boulder County, from what one Weld County guy said, is $300,000,000+/- in debt, with no way to pay that debt. Residents in the eastern part of Boulder Co. want to secede and join Weld Co. Weld doesn't want their debt and they would bring about $100,000,000+/- of debt with them. Weld Co. is very conservative and, as a result, is fairly solvent. Weld also has more natural resources to help pay the bills and remain solvent. They are O&G, mining, etc. friendly. They understand free enterprise, capitalism, business, and how the economy works.
I've been skimming over some booklets I got from the US government on smart grid. It does not include wind power but will center around smart meters, controlling individual loads in homes, and PVs. Control is on its way and PV manufacturers and probably glass manufacturers lobbied heavily for smart grid.
They claim blackouts and brownouts are because of our aging infrastructure, aging power plants, and lack of capacity. Yet they printed a lot of problems are due to chronic underinvestment. Further, a little reading at wiki on blackouts in the US reveals most were due to weather related issues or earthquakes. You cannot control nature and when it decides to issue up hurricanes, huge snowfalls, ice storms, high winds, floods, etc. Some were caused by human error. When I read disparate information like that, I become suspicious and tend to believe my emotions and rational mind are being manipulated. I also tend to suspect the cause of some blackouts because of the crap Ken Lay and Enron pulled on people to give the appearance of energy shortages.
I may have posted this elsewhere and if I have, forgive me. Another local municipality wanted its residents to conserve water because we have a water shortage. They wanted to be good citizens so they acted in accordance with the request and conserved. Turns out they were really good at conserving water. They were so good the municipality lost so much revenue they were unable to meet their costs and had to tell people to start using water again.
These are examples to me of why the truth is so important and the truth from people who know which end is up and which hole to keep shut. I am not convinced we have the right people talking yet.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
- Thread starter
- #99
Oh yes, night storage heaters..... I cannot think of anything less efficient.
They are fine for soaking up unused power at night and limiting daytime excesses.
Maybe.
The trouble is they are not energy efficient. That isn't what they are designed for.
They are very user unfriendly.
You set them and during the night they generate heat in ceramic blocks and then, during the day, release the heat.
The trouble with the climate is that you don't know from one day to the next what heat you will need.
Coupled with these is the hot water problem. Dwellings with dual tariff electricity tend to have massive hot water storage tanks which are heated at night. SO you have to have enough hot water at sufficient temperature to cater for normal day time use.
The tanks have little or no thermostatic control, so tend to boil.
Also, since storage heaters are so impracticable, most people who have them tend to use even less efficient fan heaters for immediate heat.
JMW
They are fine for soaking up unused power at night and limiting daytime excesses.
Maybe.
The trouble is they are not energy efficient. That isn't what they are designed for.
They are very user unfriendly.
You set them and during the night they generate heat in ceramic blocks and then, during the day, release the heat.
The trouble with the climate is that you don't know from one day to the next what heat you will need.
Coupled with these is the hot water problem. Dwellings with dual tariff electricity tend to have massive hot water storage tanks which are heated at night. SO you have to have enough hot water at sufficient temperature to cater for normal day time use.
The tanks have little or no thermostatic control, so tend to boil.
Also, since storage heaters are so impracticable, most people who have them tend to use even less efficient fan heaters for immediate heat.
JMW
FYI, there is a difference between brown out and black outs. Brown out can be made by your local utility to tell people to reduce demand (it rarely works, and results in many legal issues), or they can be caused by a lack or proper VAR support.
Blackouts can be made by a local utility to reduce consumption for lack of generation, fault clearing (usually local weather, some times from bad drivers, etc.), or human error.
The under investment is a way of saying "utilities have not installed enough lines for the political needs of the goverment". However many utilities are not allowed a ROI for lines to no where.
Yes there is a municipality where they had to tell people to start using water. The rest of the story is in an effort to reduce water usage, they convenced there largest customer, a coal power plant, to use recycled water in place of first use water. They also started using recycled water to water parks. And the water demand went down so much they were loseing money.
Given the water business is a very low profit business, and in most cases a non-profit. Which is why most water systems are owned by city goverments, or co-ops.
Blackouts can be made by a local utility to reduce consumption for lack of generation, fault clearing (usually local weather, some times from bad drivers, etc.), or human error.
The under investment is a way of saying "utilities have not installed enough lines for the political needs of the goverment". However many utilities are not allowed a ROI for lines to no where.
Yes there is a municipality where they had to tell people to start using water. The rest of the story is in an effort to reduce water usage, they convenced there largest customer, a coal power plant, to use recycled water in place of first use water. They also started using recycled water to water parks. And the water demand went down so much they were loseing money.
Given the water business is a very low profit business, and in most cases a non-profit. Which is why most water systems are owned by city goverments, or co-ops.
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