The 21st Century Design Drafting Group 6

[joshua0977]

I'm curious. Since CAD's inseption during the 80's & 90's many companies simply electronified (if there is such a word) their design drafting processes. In the 21st Century will there be a paradigm shift from tradtional design drafting groups? What efficiences will traditional Design Drafting groups incorporate? Examples:
Will we head toward paperless (drawingless) engineering society?
Will PMI become a viable path?
What means will design groups explore to convey design requirements and increase the design effiency?

Share your thoughts.

 

[cranky108]

What ever happened with micro fishing all the drawings? Diden't seem to last to long did it?

And how do you stamp your PE on an electronic drawing?

 

[MikeHalloran]

For whatever reason, microfiche readers always seemed to be coupled to dreadful printers.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[Qshake]

There are different means of affixing a seal to drawings and pdfs of drawings. Once the drawing or pdf files are altered the seal is automatically removed.

Regards,
Qshake

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[SNORGY]

I used an Etch-A-Sketch back in the early days.

Photocopying was a bit of a challenge.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[cranky108]

Etch-A-Sketch?

Sure beats the pencil notes the tech.'s would make on the substation steel.
And we had to go to the site and read them, as they frequently would not tell us everything. Sort of went along with little pieces of paper in a box they kept in the desk, with changes they made.

 

[gwolf2]

When criticised for printing drawings, pictures, and graphs to work with whilst I use other programs on the computer I reply:

"Well if you will give me a 1m wide by 0.75m high screen at 600 dpi with document manipulation by hand like on an iPhone I'll happily join the paperless office. Until then &%$§ off! You're slowing me down, reducing my accuracy, and making me make mistakes".

gwolf.

 

[KENAT]

This or similar has been discussed multiple times, just a quick search brought up:

thread1103-239768
thread1103-262305
thread730-256663
thread730-251417
thread1103-182896
thread730-184173
thread1103-182500
thread730-221206

Most modern 3D Cad programs can partially automate the creation of a drawing from a model. The time consuming part is thinking of the other information that has to go on the drawing, the tolerances etc. Sure, you may save a little time on the layout of views etc but to do pure MBD (model based defninition) properly per ASME Y14.41 it seems you may still have to create a 'view' in 3D so that uses some of that time again.

So, I don't necessarily see the big time saving in eliminating the model for most mechanical parts.

Where MBD is enormously beneficial is in the complex surfaces used in automotive, aerospace and plastic consumer parts etc. Trying to fully/robustly document them in 2D can be virtually impossible.

Another advantage with going pure MBD with PMI is you only have a single file to worry about but I’m not sure how excited to get about that.

My concern is when I see people using MBD/PMI to try and speed things up, what the really mean is to cut corners, not worry about Tolerancing the part or making sure all the information is there, we’ll just send a CAD model and not worry about it.

It’s not losing the drawing that scares me so much (though I have sympathy with the gian monitor comments above, and can imagine interrogating a model to be a time consuming nightmare where as with a good drawing it’s all laid out for you) as losing all the information on the drawing above and beyond the basic geometry.

If some kind of intelligent generic CAD file format can be developed and standardized then it will make things easier but the data security issues still stand.

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[calguy07]

Cranky108,

our provincial engineering association issues .tif files of your stamp for electronic use. you can then use a commercial electronic signature device to electronically sign your drawings. our CAD program also has an option to password protect the drawings so you don't even need to pdf them..it is totally possible to go paperless. even after all that, issuing a set of paper prints is still the best. its amazing how much you miss if you don't have an actual printout.

 

[brandoncdg]

If Civil 3D takes over, the drafter is no longer needed in the Civil industry. I was never clear why drafters liked this software so much.

Paperless plans sound like a really bad idea once taken out of the office into the field. Maybe it only works for certain disciplines?

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

 

[HgTX]

If Civil 3D takes over, the drafter is no longer needed in the Civil industry.

How so?

Hg

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[ewh]

The same way that he is no longer needed in machine design!

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[KENAT]

Well, no more necessary than that anachronism the Checker.

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[ajack1]

Whenever these debates come up it seems most people want to have a one size fits all solution, I see it going completely the opposite way.

For example I can see no advantage in having a fully modelled wiring layout where there may be yards or miles between key features, I cannot see a 2D schematic ever being replaced here, or at least not in the near future.

Once you start cramming lots of things in a small space 3D comes into its own, especially when designing something like a car, where weight distribution, assembly, aerodynamics etc can be sorted on the screen.

Once you get into machining and inspecting complex 3D shapes 3D is a must where the parts cannot be defined by 2D drawings alone.

It really is like asking which is better a spade or a JCB? Both have there uses and are the best tool for certain uses.

 

[brandoncdg]

HgTX, have you used Civil 3d before to design a project? My last job the tutorials were advertising drafters as adding notes and stuff to the plans. Only problem is that Civil 3D basically does that for the designer almost instantly. Notes and any little notes are basically done automatically when you draw. And drawing in C3D is a working design. If the design doesn't work, well then it probably will never work in real life.

I am talking from the Civil POV.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

 

[par060]

There have been so many bells and whistles added to CAD programs that they have become to difficult to use. Even the people who work with it all day every day have to poke around to find how to solve simple problems within a drawing...it took 15 minutes for a cad person to scale up and arrow head last week. So many times I can sketch a detail to scale faster than it can be put on a electronic drawing......it drives me insane!

 

[KENAT]

brandoncdg, if what you say is true, then Civil 3D must be a lot more advanced than any of the systems I've seen for mechanical design - or civil drawings are much simpler which I'm hesitant to say.

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[TheTick]

A drawing is about communication. It tells the story of a design. The most perfect 3D shape in the world does not communicate a design.

Everything has context. To tell the story of a design, one must start from a given point of view, in order to allow the reader to form a framework for assimilating new information. A drawing is about the best tool available to do this, and probably still will be long after anyone who knew your great-grandchildren has turned to dust.

People are basically idiots, and are barely capable of communicating in one dimension. Two is a challenge. Three makes most of their heads explode.

 

[kontiki99]

We'll be using special eyeglasses that project documents and images directly on the eyeballs using lasers.

 

[brandoncdg]

Kenai: No, Civil plans are still probably the most complicated with no way of automation like the other disciplines. But Civil 3d used in the right hands, is something very different. I learned my trade from someone who learned by hand. Since I am younger, learned from someone by hand, but computers are my thing, well Civil 3D will take over. I think a major problem is most Civil's coming out of school do not know how to design by pencil and paper. But yes you are right Civil 3D is extremely advanced and it meant to do huge flat land subdivisions. I was intent on figuring out this software for hillside grading. I somewhat know how to use it, but can still sketch plans instantly for clients at a table. I was in contact with a lot of people at the forefront of the software when it first came out. A lot of the somewhat complicated thinking can be solved by just selecting pictures and telling the software what to do with that picture. I think in about 10 years C3D will take out drafters in the Civil field completely.

BTW someone that can't scale a North Arrow within seconds is not very useful at CAD. Maybe I just learned more than an average person while working under others, but some drafters' skills were severely lacking. I am more critical of this because I am scared once my company starts hiring the first non partner employee.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com

http://civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

 

[KENAT]

Tick, loathed as I am to say it, I'm not sure I entirely agree with you. There are definitely issues with completely eliminating the drawing and relying on just 3D but it's done. As I've mentioned before, all the information in a drawing still needs to be in the model file somehow. This is where it gets tricky and from what I've seen, as time consuming as a model and partial drawings, but I've only played a little with pure MBD.

brandoncdg, I've seen relatively little true automation within CAD at the places I've worked mechanical 3D design (with drawings). There are many aspects of design I find a little tricky to imagine much automation with current technology. Most engineers aren't interested in 'the detail' (or are perhaps a bit too costly to spend their time on it) from what I've seen, this is where there is a place for designers/drafters or whatever you want to call them, at least in some situations.

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